232-HOW TO HANDLE STRESS IN RECOVERY

Chuck LaFLange (00:00.796)
Hello everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds. Welcome to another episode of The Weekend Ramble on the Ashes to Awesome podcast. I am your host Chuck LaFlange in Krabi, Thailand. Joining me halfway around the world of course in virtual studio is my beautiful co -host Dr. Lisa. How you doing today Lisa?

Lisa (00:16.596)
I'm good. I'm yeah, I'm happy. It's the weekend. I had a good sleep. I have a hot cup of coffee. I'm good.

Chuck LaFLange (00:25.852)
Wow, just to list the gratitudes off first thing, right? Yeah, okay.

Lisa (00:28.084)
There you go. Well, it's like when someone says, how are you, you have to check. You're like, how am I? I don't know. Think about it for a minute.

Chuck LaFLange (00:35.292)
Fair enough, fair enough, right? Yeah. Is springtime there in Calgary yet, or are you still fighting through the winter a little bit?

Lisa (00:40.18)
So it was beautiful and 16 degrees on Tuesday and then we've had snow for the last three days. But yeah, I think it's over. Like I think today on is like going to be sort of double digit temperatures again. So yeah, it's we're like in that early, early sort of Calgary spring kind of thing going on. It's okay. It's okay.

Chuck LaFLange (00:50.364)
Ahhhh

Chuck LaFLange (00:59.132)
Nice, nice, nice, should be to normal.

Chuck LaFLange (01:05.806)
Gotcha, gotcha. You know what, we didn't talk about this pre -record, but it just occurred to me now, because I looked down at the date. Do you remember the weekend ramble where my friend Laina came on with us? Do you remember joking about how I had missed her birthday? That was a conversation inside that episode? No? That was a year ago, by the way. Well, I did. Her birthday was on April 2nd, and I missed it again this year. She's a very, very close friend of mine.

Lisa (01:16.628)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (01:25.812)
I do not. I'm sorry.

Lisa (01:33.044)
No, no, no.

Chuck LaFLange (01:35.964)
So, and I feel just awful for it. So I feel like I'm gonna say it right off the bat, because I know she does listen, it might take her a while. Happy belated birthday. I am sorry that I missed your birthday. So, yes. Yes, yes. Yes it is, yes it is. So, yeah. After, yes, yes. She's been, she's coming up here May 9th. Yep, yep.

Lisa (01:46.644)
There you go. Is her birthday is on April 2nd?

Happy birthday, Lena. When is your birthday?

Lisa (01:59.764)
May 9th. Is it bad that I'm thinking about what star sign you are?

Chuck LaFLange (02:04.828)
Taurus, yeah, I mean I'm surprised because you know you're a psychiatrist and all that sciencey stuff that gets in the way of you know astrology, but you know so

Lisa (02:07.092)
ear atorus.

Lisa (02:13.364)
I know. I'm a weird doctor though, you know? I also like to eat paleo. I like to know star signs. Like, tell me all the things.

Chuck LaFLange (02:21.564)
Yeah, there you go. I tell you, I've had this and I don't even want to have this conversation on the show, but I'll say it anyway. Come on, it's astrology. Like, come on. Like, no, and I know people are listening to it. No, I know for sure, and this and that. And then I dated somebody a few years back who was just an adamant believer. And I told her about this experiment.

This is how ridiculous the whole thing is to me. I told about an experiment where a teacher put down a piece of paper in front of everybody in his class, and this is like a college level or university level, and said, your horoscope is on your desk. I've done it per everybody there. How many people here will say that that's an accurate representation of them? 90%. It was all the same horoscope.

Lisa (03:14.964)
And I'm guessing that none of that's going to say. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (03:19.484)
So, and she's like, that would never happen to me, that would never happen to me. Less than 10 minutes later, I read her horoscope that isn't hers. And she's like, well, that part isn't true, but the rest of it's pretty bang on. You have to admit. So I was like, but okay, it's not yours. Right? So, it's just, we want this stuff to be true, or we inherently believe in it. I don't know why. You could probably explain why people fall into this stuff so much, but just to me, it's insane. But.

Lisa (03:35.316)
I know, I know.

Lisa (03:40.18)
Yeah.

Lisa (03:46.996)
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I don't put a lot of weight to it for sure, but it's interesting.

Chuck LaFLange (03:50.812)
Because what it all comes down to is when my parents humped. Right? Like that's like, you know what I mean? You know? So anyway, anyway, yes, yes. Whoa, let's not have that thought anymore. Rest of the episode, no talk about parents humping. Okay, okay.

Lisa (03:56.308)
I don't know.

Lisa (04:02.004)
Yeah.

Lisa (04:05.684)
Yeah, yeah. Or horoscope sign.

Chuck LaFLange (04:11.708)
Yeah, so I know I'm gonna get some shade over that but So what's it we Well, what sign are you know that yes, ah Oh I'm going to forget you know that right around the 14th. I'm gonna go happy belated birthday I was well into my 30s. I was well into my 30s before I started remembering my mom's birthday. I

Lisa (04:15.028)
It's my fault I'm the one who asked.

You can blame me. I'm an Aries. My birthday's in 10 days. Don't forget.

Lisa (04:32.66)
It's all good.

Lisa (04:36.5)
But then you'll be early, so then you're good.

Lisa (04:42.132)
Seriously?

Chuck LaFLange (04:42.588)
Like, yeah, it's just, and here's the thing. I, at the end of March, actually checked for Lena's birthday. I was like, go back, check, right? I was going back to check the episodes before, like looking for that weekend ramble, because I did not want to miss it this year. I was like, oh, wait a minute, I can just check Facebook, for most people have it on there, right? And of course it is listed. So it's like, okay, remember, 10 days from now, you have to say, go on, nothing, right?

Lisa (05:10.228)
I mean, so you talk openly about your ADHD. That's just like, to me, that's more ADHD than being thoughtless, you know?

Chuck LaFLange (05:16.22)
Yes. Yes.

Chuck LaFLange (05:21.692)
And it is, 100%. And I've tried to have these conversations. Most recently, it was somebody I was dating and I missed her birthday. And she was so angry with me. It's like, listen, you can't be more angry with me than I am about it. Like, I am really, truly sorry. It's me. I never want to make anybody unhappy.

Lisa (05:35.604)
Yeah.

Lisa (05:42.708)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (05:42.908)
Right? Like I am a people pleaser textbook. And like, so for me to miss your birthday, you cannot be more hurt about it than I can be angry at myself. It's impossible. But here we are, year after year, doing the same damn thing. Right? There's, yeah. You know, it is what it is. Right? So, yeah, yeah. Anyway. Funny to think though that it's been a year now. Right?

Lisa (05:46.388)
Hahaha, yeah!

Lisa (05:53.844)
Yeah.

Lisa (05:59.668)
is what it is. Everyone does their best.

Chuck LaFLange (06:09.148)
And we've talked about that. It's been a year for the show. It's been just over a year now that you and I have been working together. I think at that point that was, well, it was definitely pre -co -host, still guest. One of your first appearances on the show even, right? I would think.

Lisa (06:17.172)
Yeah. I'm going to look, do you remember? I don't, well, I don't expect you to remember, but like I'm trying to, well, I don't remember. I don't think anyone would remember, but it's like, I'm curious now when, let's see the date of the first time I was on, but yeah, it is definitely around a year because it was 70 something, I think. 70.

Chuck LaFLange (06:23.644)
No, of course I don't remember.

Chuck LaFLange (06:40.796)
go to our Instagram messages, it'd be the easiest way because we don't do a lot of Instagram messaging.

Lisa (06:49.076)
I think it was in March, wasn't it?

I don't remember and I can't find it.

Chuck LaFLange (06:53.916)
That feels right. You messaged me for the first time on April 22nd. Yeah, it's the first time that you did. Yeah. Yeah, so there you go. So coming up. Oh, well, how did that happen then? Oh, because we were, yeah, so that might've been like your second appearance or something with Lane on then. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lisa (07:00.404)
Okay.

Lisa (07:11.348)
Okay.

Lisa (07:14.868)
My first one was April 23rd.

Chuck LaFLange (07:18.908)
Yeah, that stands to reason. Yeah, it was the very next day. Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (07:21.268)
Yeah, because I remember it was just after Devin, because I remember that Devin had been on and then had told me about, yeah, you know, had told me about the podcast and and then I had looked and seen that it was very sort of family focused.

Chuck LaFLange (07:26.748)
That's why you messaged me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (07:36.54)
Yeah, yeah. Actually, yeah, your first message was, hi Chuck, thank you for your podcast. Devin introduced it to me and I'm really enjoying it. Literally the first thing you ever said to me. Yeah. That's crazy. It's crazy. So it's coming up on our year anniversary. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, we were talking pre -record here about.

Lisa (07:42.516)
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Almost a year.

Lisa (07:52.532)
Yep. Yep. Love it. Love it.

Chuck LaFLange (08:02.588)
About myself, as much as I don't ever like to make an episode about myself anymore, I guess some of the things you said though are pretty relevant and maybe even important to talk about, right? So, yeah.

Lisa (08:11.156)
I was just thinking, you know, because when we have guests on, obviously, the focus is on the guest and their experience and their journey and their story, which we love because then it's like people bringing in fresh ideas and content. And so that's what we want it to be. But when I realized we weren't going to have a guest today, you know, in pre -recording, you were talking a little bit about some of the stuff you've been going through recently with getting your visa and

And I just, I mean, I know from talking to you how stressful, you know, things about being in Thailand have been in terms of the immigration stuff. And then I found myself thinking as you were telling me about it, you know, just this morning that we don't really get to talk about you and your story and sort of how you're doing.

And it made me think about the fact that, I mean, I think it's incredible that you're 16 months sober, like huge accomplishment. You've got this lifetime, what 20, 30 years of substances, and now you've got 16 months sober, and it hasn't been easy. And I don't think sobriety journeys are easy for anybody.

Chuck LaFLange (09:16.572)
Thank you.

Chuck LaFLange (09:22.492)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (09:29.66)
No, it hasn't been.

Lisa (09:36.724)
But I think that in a perfect world, you know, like if I were going to prescribe what I would want for somebody in their first year of sobriety, it would not include the stress that you have faced. Like, I would have been saying, okay, we don't want any of that. But again, shit happens, life happens, and you've had a lot of stress. And so it just, to me, is even more amazing that you have faced all of this.

Chuck LaFLange (09:53.116)
Hahaha!

Lisa (10:06.004)
these stressors and these struggles and continued to maintain your sobriety. And I just wondered if you, you know, wanted to talk a bit about that because obviously, you know, there are other people watching who are in their own sobriety journeys at various phases. And I think your own story is, you know, as much as every guest we have on has something I think to share that can help people, so do you.

Chuck LaFLange (10:26.428)
Yeah.

Lisa (10:34.868)
We don't talk about it a lot.

Chuck LaFLange (10:35.292)
I suppose so. I don't think about it that way much but in the beginning there's a few things in the beginning. In the beginning I was very very broke so money was money was traditionally was be my trigger. That said

I mean, whatever, it's me. I managed to go a very long time being very broke and keeping high. It wasn't about not being able to get it. My dad, knowing that...

He'd left the world without ever having to see this version of me sucked, right? And then the stressors just kept coming. I remember me telling you about New Year's last year. There's a shotgun outside my bedroom door, kicks off the, like I moved into a house that was drug free. Less than two weeks later, they had stopped trying to hide it and all the drugs were there.

There's a dealer living in the hallway down from me, like the bedroom down the hallway. It was like, what the fuck? Seriously? Like, you guys? And then, of course, that lifestyle comes with all the things that it comes with. So New Year's Eve, here I am, dealing with PTSD for the first time sober ever. And...

It was tough, it was really hard, even on the really good days it was really hard. And then there's a guy outside my bedroom door with a shotgun yelling at the party. So like I said it before, I didn't leave my room for three days. Like not for anything. I pissed in a cup and dumped it out the window. So yeah, stress. Like a lot of stress. To move out of that place, a few days after that, I actually lowered my backpacks out that same window.

Lisa (12:20.276)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (12:31.42)
climbed out the window and left like that. My stepmom came and picked me up down the alley and all my backpacks and out I went. So yeah, there was some stress. And then from there, I mean, it just, yeah, I mean, addiction showed up again in the most recent place I lived in Calgary, just on the other side of my bedroom door, right? Some insanity going on there. And that's when, fortunately, mom decided she was going to help me get to Thailand. And then there's all the...

The trauma, there's been a lot. There's been a whole lot. And of course the financial side of it, right? I mean, there's a fake it to make it element that I think we all have to do. Me and my position as, you know, with the platform, I can't come on complaining about being broke all the time. Though I've done my fair share of that on the platform as well. We just had a necessity trying to get some help.

Until this latest sponsor came on, who I guess, you know what, they'll be the title sponsor for this episode, so, you know, Far Canada. My gross revenue was less than half of what my bills were in a month before food. And that's what I've been living off of since, essentially since I got to Thailand, right? It was like the month after I got here, I, you know, I'd lost the one sponsor, so my cost of living here is very, very low.

Lisa (13:49.268)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (13:56.956)
But less than half of that is what I was bringing in. So it's been.

Lisa (13:59.7)
Mm -hmm. And how, like, how are you making it? Like, I don't actually get how you're doing it.

Chuck LaFLange (14:03.74)
I've had some help here and there. Of course, you know, yourself, you've helped me out a couple times. Mom has helped me a few times.

In reality, the biggest part of all of that, just from the survival mode, is watching what I spend on everything. So if you saw that post about the garlic press, you know, one day you're blowing your paycheck and, you know, feeling guilty, or justifying an eight ball and feeling guilty about blowing your check, and the next day you're, you know, justifying buying a fucking garlic press and feeling guilty for buying salted butter, right? Like, because recovery.

Lisa (14:29.076)
Yeah, I did. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (14:46.012)
And now that is like, I just spent $4 on LED lights and that was a treat. Right? Like that's like a, yeah, okay, I'm gonna do it. Which is crazy. For me, I mean, outside of addiction, I've always been really good at making money. I've always been a little better at spending it. But like I've never had to worry, worry outside of like the last couple of years and really hardcore, you know, in the lifestyle addiction.

Lisa (15:04.468)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (15:11.868)
I've never had to, like if I want something, I've typically in my life gotten it. So it's been a huge shift, a huge shift, and just because if not, I'm like, I fucking hear the government's not giving me any money here. Right? Yeah, my mom's helped me out, and you know, yourself and some other people, but it's not like I know I have anything coming, so I have to watch every single bot, as it were, that I spent. Not dollar, but bot. And I've gotten pretty good at it, right? You know?

Lisa (15:35.06)
Yeah. And I mean, you know, like when, when I work with folks in the hospital and they're leaving, right, I will whenever possible meet with families or talk to families on the phone. And part of it is for educational purposes, right, to try to help them understand. But a huge part of it is, is focused on advocating for

Chuck LaFLange (15:59.932)
Yeah.

Lisa (16:04.276)
the patient in that when patients are dealing with mental health struggles, so whether they've come in and they're, you know, one week, two weeks sober, or whether they've come in and they've had an episode of mania or psychosis or depression, we know that one controllable or at least semi controllable risk factor is stress levels. So,

You know, if I'm discharging people, I will talk to families because I advocate. Like, I do not want this person going home and being expected to function the way that they functioned six months or a year ago, where they might be running the household, cooking the meals, doing the laundry, tending to kids, working full time. Like, we will support people being off work for a period of time and getting government assistance so that they can have that period of recovery with decreased stress.

I will advocate to spouses, like you have to step up, you have to take on more stuff at home, even if it's an uneven balance, because in that early stage, trying to minimize risk is protective for people. So, you know, we were talking before we started recording, but it's like the stuff that you have gone through in the past year is all the things I would tell you not to go through to...

Chuck LaFLange (17:21.98)
Hehehehehe

Lisa (17:24.66)
you know, with the hope of helping you succeed. Now you have succeeded despite all of it, which is incredible, but like, like how, how have you done it? Like what, what is your mind? Where have your thoughts gone? Like when you have gone through these stressors, do you find yourself trying to tell yourself that, well, I could go back and live in the life and not use, but deal and make money or like, I just, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (17:31.612)
Thank you.

Chuck LaFLange (17:48.476)
I've told myself that of course I have, right? I'd be lying if not. And here's the thing about any former purveyor of party supplies, any dealer that's in recovery, I am sure that I am not unique in that it's like, fuck, now that I got a handle on the habit, I could go back and make some money, right?

And like, whoa. And so here in Thailand, of course, nope. Right? I am more afraid of Thailand jail than I am of anything I've ever been in my life. So it's not even afraid. It's just like this awareness of that somewhere that I will never end up. So it's not something here that I would even entertain. Right? Immigration is a close second of that. They just don't fuck around here. So I just like, you know, but of course, when it's back in Calgary, the thoughts, oh, the thoughts, you know.

Lisa (18:29.172)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (18:38.076)
There was at one point I was like slipping cans of beans from the pantry at the house I was living in to eat Right, like I actually like sneaking in the middle of the night going to grab a can of beans because that's the only thing that I'd eat in that day You know or a can of tuna or whatever vegetables, right? So yeah when you're doing that it's real easy Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right I mean That is technically ceiling that said

Lisa (18:55.764)
And were you sneaking it because it wasn't yours? And you thought that, okay, okay.

Chuck LaFLange (19:06.652)
There's some pretty twisted shit going on financially there where like I paid for a lot of cans of beans and so like it wasn't in reality stealing from her but she just had a totally fucked up skewed view on things but anyway.

Lisa (19:13.716)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (19:26.62)
Undoubtedly, you know, and I said this in a reel that I recently published. It was from an episode that you and I had had with your friend, not Dr. Goj, not Dr. Tangay, the other Dr. Scott, yes, yeah, when he was on. The reel I posted was from that episode where it was like, it's connection times a million.

Lisa (19:38.196)
Dr. Scott? Mark Scott?

Chuck LaFLange (19:48.252)
So for me in my journey specifically, yes I've had stressors that maybe a lot of people wouldn't, but a lot of people have though as well. But yes, I know some of mine have been pretty extreme. Being alone in a country halfway around the world from everybody I know and love and being like, count your potatoes broke and I shit you not. That's been most of my time here. I mean, that's the kind of stress that's next level. However, thanks to the platform.

I've experienced the kind of connection that most people will never in their life experience. Can you imagine if I was so close to relapse that I just had to talk to somebody? Can you imagine how many people I could talk to? Right? And the comfort that goes with that? There is literally thousands of people that I know personally that know enough about me that I'd feel comfortable talking to. Dozens.

Right? Dozens, for sure. So that, I mean, I have that. And I think at the end of the day, if I had to pin it on one thing, I think that would probably be it. Is having that connection. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. The other thing is around Christmas. And I've talked about this. I don't know specifically with you, though, Lisa. When I was feeling really shitty, like it was just.

Lisa (20:56.788)
terms of what was protective for you was that connection?

Chuck LaFLange (21:13.948)
It was catching up on me, right? The isolation feeling, not knowing the language. I had a meltdown over what I thought were turnips instead of sweet potatoes. Like it was just like I completely lost my shit one day, like a total meltdown, right? That feeling sucked. And of course the whole Christmas thing and I've talked about that. And it was around then that I was, cause weed's legal here, right? Like it's everywhere.

I was like, maybe I can, right? Like, you know, I know weed's never been a problem for me, I'm sure that I could, which is just typical fucking addict talk, right? Attic brain talking to you. And the thing is, I'm pretty sure I could have a drink, I'm pretty sure that I could, you know, smoke a joint and I'd be fine. I'm still pretty sure of those things, but.

I didn't. I didn't for a variety of reasons, partially financially, but I mean a little bit of weeds, no big deal. Fuck next door neighbor offered me some right around that time too.

Chuck LaFLange (22:17.116)
I just at the time it's like I'm enjoying being sober so I'm just going to stay sober. After the fact though, I found myself once I'd slipped out of that funk if you will, and I think I've probably talked about this with you Lisa, looking back at it's like I don't want to smoke weed right now because I'm not feeling that funk. That's why I can't smoke weed. That's why I can't drink. That's why. That's all why.

Lisa (22:40.212)
Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (22:45.852)
Because that is, even if I don't historically have a problem with those things, right, the fact that I want to use when I'm feeling shitty is the very reason not to use. And of course at the time I didn't think that way, but having the opportunity to go back and look at it after the fact and kind of having that realization about myself really makes me, now I'm hyper aware of that, right, so.

Lisa (22:50.516)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (23:00.628)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (23:12.532)
And I find that, because I have this conversation with people often where they will say those sorts of things or ask those questions, right? They'll say like, you know, so they come in and they're addicted to cocaine or they're addicted to meth or they're addicted to opiates. And so they'll say to me like, well, you know, I don't have a problem with alcohol, right? I don't have a problem with weed. And so, you know, I think I should be able to still have a drink or I should be able to smoke a joint or whatever.

And like what I'll often say to people is kind of the flip side of what you're saying is like, but if you don't need those things, right? You tell me you don't have a problem with them. If you don't have a problem with them, then you don't need them. So it's like, if you don't need them, and even if it's a 1 % chance that it will cause just enough disinhibition that you might then go call your Coke dealer, why would you risk it?

Chuck LaFLange (23:55.356)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (24:10.524)
Yeah, right, right.

Lisa (24:11.412)
Like, again, I mean, alcohol is legal. Like, whether it's legal or illegal doesn't matter to me. I'm not a police officer. But it's like...

If there's any chance, like any, even if it's a 0 .1 chance, if there's a 0 .1 chance that it's going to take you back, you know, and the majority of people I know who relapse will tell me that their relapse starts with alcohol and that they're not alcoholics. They don't crave alcohol. They don't over drink. But it will start the majority of the time with booze, right? Where it's like they go out and they think, well, I can have a drink.

Chuck LaFLange (24:22.78)
Yes.

Chuck LaFLange (24:34.524)
Oh yeah.

Lisa (24:47.38)
So they'll have a drink. And then the next thing they know, they'll describe for me that they're standing in front of their dealer and they're buying whatever their drug of choice is. And they're thinking to themselves, how the hell did I get here? Like, how did I end up here? So that's for me is always the question that how I flip it back. Because it's like, I don't have, I can't tell you what to do. I mean, I'm very aware that I can't tell people what to do when they're going to leave the hospital and go do what I've told them. But I just say, like, if you're going to sit here and tell me you don't have a problem with it,

Chuck LaFLange (24:58.428)
Oh yeah.

Lisa (25:16.148)
implying you don't need it, then why would you? Just why?

Chuck LaFLange (25:20.22)
Yeah, why bother, right? And, you know, one day at a time all that stuff just for today, I mean, they're not just cliches, they're a real fucking thing, but maybe someday I can, but in this moment in time, it's not something that I even want to, I just don't want to bother, right? And the other thing,

Lisa (25:22.292)
I bother.

Chuck LaFLange (25:41.756)
Until last year, or just I guess the year before last now, but less than two years ago, I had never ever since I was 14, 15 years old, gone 30 days without getting high. Ever. And I did it once and then I went into relapse, you know, and that lasted almost a year and then I, you know, but I'm really enjoying just not being messed up.

It's a totally different relationship. When I think about relationships with women, I'm talking to people and there's a whole set of things going on in my head that I've never experienced before. That's because it's not clouded. It's because I'm not fated. The things that I find important now, never before in my life.

Lisa (26:28.884)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Lisa (26:36.148)
And like, when I hear you describe that, that sounds like a positive thing. But then what about like the flip side where does that also mean though, that it's difficult for you? Because if you are used to socializing in an altered state or being with women in an altered state, then I love to hear you say that it's a pleasure to be able to be there and to not be clouded. But is that also hard for you? Cause it's unfamiliar and.

Chuck LaFLange (27:06.684)
Yes. And I, yatra, right? Would I be saying these same things if not for my experience and some of the things I got to address? Maybe not, right?

Chuck LaFLange (27:25.084)
the role models. I look at someone like Mike. Mike from Yantra, Mike Miller for those that aren't familiar with the show. I still remember very clearly, this was months ago, shortly after we met. He was gonna be late, or he wasn't sure if he was gonna make it, or something. Something for an episode that we were gonna record together. And he was so genuinely distraught at the thought.

of not being able to make his commitment to me. Right? And it was just like this, that's, I want to be that guy. Right? Do what you say, say what you do. Be like, with some fucking integrity for the first time in my life. Of real integrity. Right? Like there's huge swaths in my life where I wasn't lying, I wasn't stealing, I wasn't all those things. But.

to be able to be that guy that people can count on. To me it was like, I want to be like that. So there's a role model that goes, combine that with the therapy that I was so fortunate to receive. All of the different people in my life, yourself being one of them, Lisa, who just like, there's a fucking better way. It doesn't have to be this shady.

Lisa (28:35.732)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (28:49.756)
being dishonest with yourself as much as everybody else, shit, that active addiction is. So fuck it, I'ma try this way for hopefully the rest of my life. It's such a better way. One of the things for me, and I mean I'm a 46 year old guy without kids.

Lisa (28:53.332)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (28:59.092)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (29:02.644)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (29:06.836)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (29:16.188)
That part is like.

How do I explain this? I always wanted kids. I still have a lot of regret over not having kids. I've been a stepfather a few times and I'm a fucking great dad. I'm gonna step like I have. I really am. But...

Lisa (29:28.084)
It's not over yet.

Lisa (29:32.244)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (29:38.876)
I look at people with families and this connection that's just built into your fucking life all the time. And it makes me like, there's like that. Why do I want to go back to where I was? Like, so that's why, right? And the show, the show, the show, the show, the show, the show, right? Like, you know, can you imagine me showing up high for this? Right? Can you fucking imagine? Right? Like, ah, how messed up would that be? Right? You know.

Lisa (29:58.196)
Is it hurt? No.

Lisa (30:07.508)
But is it hard because like what you're saying to me as someone who has not suffered in addiction makes complete sense. Like I'm like, yes, there is a better way. And, you know, there are so many good things to living a life that is not tainted with addiction. But is it hard for you? And I do suspect, you know, that the podcast is part of it. It's just that constant reminder for you, right?

But is it hard for you to stay in that headspace during all the like very significant stressors you've had? Like, do you find your thoughts going off and then needing to be pulled back?

Chuck LaFLange (30:45.244)
Oh, all the time. All the time. All the time. I just, like in you saying that, I picture myself sitting on the edge of my bed sobbing. And there's been a lot of that. Like a lot of that. Right? Yeah, it's like, I feel it coming and it's like, ah! Right? I've been fortunate though in that I can just remind myself of...

Lisa (30:59.124)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (31:15.036)
look where I am, look at what's going on in my life, look where I was, right? And it's just remembering that things are so much, my worst day now is nothing compared to what a normal day was two years ago, right? The very, very worst day, you know, I've...

Lisa (31:32.148)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (31:35.804)
I've been absolutely terrified that my power is going to get cut off for the last few days because I fell into that power bill scam that I told you about, right? I'm just now, I'm able to pay it and I'll do so on Monday. But like sitting there having those, it's just like, fuck, this is like, ah, but even that, right? Like I know if my power got cut off tomorrow, it'd be a couple phone calls back home and I'd have power back on. Like I know that's going to happen.

Lisa (31:42.292)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (31:59.572)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (32:01.532)
That doesn't happen if I go back to my old way, right? Like, you know what I mean? So, the worst fucking day I have now is so much better. It's, you know.

Lisa (32:06.708)
Yeah, yeah. Cause I sometimes.

One of the things that I'll sometimes say to people when they're in hospital, right? And I mean, even in hospital, like I can see people's, if we're talking about addiction specifically, I see people from hour to hour change, right? One hour they're like, I'm out of here, screw you, this sucks, whatever. And then the next hour they're like, oh my God, like, thank God I didn't leave. And it's just like, it does a lot of that. And I'll say to patients, like when you're having your strong moment,

when you are feeling motivated and insightful and driven to do this. Like have a, call it a gratitude journal or whatever, but it's like have somewhere where you can write down like why you're doing this, like how shit it was.

Chuck LaFLange (32:56.284)
Because because because I know where there's a fucking pin in this house. Come on Lisa. We talked about that I Suppose I could do that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah

Lisa (33:02.036)
You could do a video recording to yourself then. Because again, like, yes, what you're saying is all true and it all makes sense. But the problem is, is that I see it all the time where people have these moments and I'm sure you've experienced them where that's gone. Like that shit's gone. Like the common sense, the logical thinking, the critical thinking, it's gone. And so I'll say to people, like in whatever capacity you need,

Chuck LaFLange (33:18.012)
Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Lisa (33:27.476)
Like, and don't write it to me, like write it to yourself, record it to yourself, like remind yourself, because it's one of those things where you get out of the life. And I think what happens is the rosy sunglasses come on and you forget how bad it was. People forget, you know, and that's.

Chuck LaFLange (33:39.868)
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, without a doubt, right? Or convince yourself that it's going to be better at least, which is a textbook atypical shit, right? You know?

Lisa (33:46.004)
Yeah.

Right? And I feel like that is part of the disease is that it, it, it wants you to forget all the pain and the shame and the shit. And, you know, and it allows you to convince yourself that yes, it'll be different or maybe it wasn't that bad or whatever. So like hearing you talk about all this, like, I love that you're in that head space, but knowing that there was a lot of people who,

who struggle to be in the headspace that you have managed to maintain amazingly. It's like, what's your advice? Like, how do you not go to that space? How do you not tell yourself all the bullshit lies? Like...

Chuck LaFLange (34:30.428)
Again, I'll go back to the therapy helps so much, so much. They really got some tools there. The breath work, right? So the breath work is crazy how effective it is. There's some irony there because it's probably the thing that was told to me most throughout my life.

Lisa (34:52.98)
Hahaha!

Chuck LaFLange (34:54.78)
Right, my mom, my friends, I've heard this shit for years and just completely dismiss it as just whatever, but it's not whatever, it's actually, it's a very big deal. Right, and I can feel, so when I was, for instance, when I came back from Malaysia last time, when I had to leave the country and come back to get my visa renewed, right, and there was all of a sudden a very strong possibility they weren't gonna let me in.

Lisa (35:04.404)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (35:20.156)
I remember sitting in a chair in the airport waiting for everybody else on the plane to go through immigration and then three of them coming over to me. And it was like 20 minutes, half an hour of complete uncertainty and stress. Like horrible stress at the time. Like my dog has been home for 10 hours. I don't even know if I'm gonna be able to get back in the country.

I have no money. I was just telling you this pre -record, right? Like I bought lunch and a snack and I had to like ration my money because that's how broke I was. And I spent the whole day in the airport in Malaysia, right? So now I'm sitting here, I got no money. I'm like, what the fuck? Horribly stressful situation. And I was sitting there and I was like, in for five, out for 10. In for five, out for 10. And I could feel my body just go.

Like with the help of that breath work, it really made all the difference in the world. Yeah, yeah. I was doing it a few hours ago here. Just some things, whatever, some social media posts from back home about members of my family being on holiday and that, and just some resentment. And it was just like, no, I needed some breath work. And it's just like, whew. And that might be.

Lisa (36:16.276)
Do you still do it?

Chuck LaFLange (36:38.908)
allowing the craving to come and go. And it's just... It wasn't a craving. But I think negative emotions, resentments, all of that shit is essentially, like, you might as well call it a craving. Right? Because whether it's a... Yes. Right? So, yeah. Absolutely. Right? So whether that shows up as a craving or some other sort of, you know, self -soothing, whatever need or want.

Lisa (36:53.172)
Well, there's that, I think it comes with an urge to escape it, because people don't want to sit with negative feelings, right? So you feel negative stuff and you want to go away.

Chuck LaFLange (37:08.636)
Um.

Allowing that to process and you know what? Yeah, I do. I'm a little fucking resentful about it, but The breath work if nothing else gives you some time for that just to happen So whether it's a craving or whether it's whatever it just because here's the other thing with the craving As soon as you fight something you give it power Right, so you can't fight a craving off. I mean, I suppose you can and maybe it's effective for some people but for me personally I'm just gonna let it do its thing for a minute because it's gonna piss off

Lisa (37:21.876)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (37:41.02)
And if it sticks around for too long, I can talk about it. And then it's lost all. The moment you release it from your body, it just loses all its power. As soon as you say to anybody in your life that's a positive influence, I'm having a craving, you're not having a craving. And it's that fast. Right? You know, like, it just is. If you're being honest with yourself and with that person, there's no way it's sticking around. It's just not the way cravings work. Right? Because all of a sudden you said it to somebody, you know, right?

Lisa (38:03.636)
Yeah, I feel like, I feel now like, I'll admit this, I don't care. I loved Oprah and I feel like Oprah would have guests on and something would be said and she would be like, aha, that's an aha moment. Well, I think that was an aha moment. Like that to me was like the best thing said this whole episode.

Chuck LaFLange (38:20.732)
Okay, okay.

Lisa (38:24.916)
was just around how to take away the power from the craving. Be it, you know, on one hand, you're describing, I think, which is almost like a mindfulness activity, you're, you know, and some distraction, right? By focusing on your breath, you're pulling your thought and your mind away from the craving, which takes away its power. But then also that you, when you talk about it, you take the power away, right? And yeah, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (38:25.084)
Ah.

Chuck LaFLange (38:49.756)
Yeah. Without a doubt. Yeah. Even for me now, even when I think about talking about it, and there's been a few times, right, it's been like.

you know, be having a conversation with somebody is, you know, do I want... The thought of telling somebody for me is enough. Right? Like it triggers everything that goes along with telling somebody. You know what I mean? It's just like, okay, there it's gone. Right? You know, so... It turns into a reflex thing, like the cognitive behavior thing. If you practice doing it when you're not, you know, stressed out, it becomes second nature, whatever, right? Or any other sort of muscle or mind memory thing or, you know what I mean? Like, you know...

Lisa (39:09.812)
Hmm. Yeah.

Lisa (39:16.404)
Yeah.

Lisa (39:25.94)
Yes.

Lisa (39:30.356)
and it becomes comforting, right? The way I often describe it to patients is that if you practice therapy skills, whether it's breathing, whether it's other mindfulness activities, like one of my favorite mindfulness activities that I do often is like the five senses. Did you do that one?

Chuck LaFLange (39:32.38)
Yes.

Lisa (39:47.476)
And what I love about it is you can do it anywhere. You can do it at the grocery store. You can do it in the shower. You can do it anywhere. And so it's like, just go through your senses. And some people will have like a five, four, three, two, one thing. I'm like, that's just complicated. I don't remember what's five, what's four, what's three. Doesn't matter, right? Like just go through your senses. So when you're at the grocery store, it's like actually look around and look, like really look, cause we don't, we do not live our lives, our lives mindfully. We're like, we're always in a rush. We got towards.

Chuck LaFLange (40:02.172)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (40:15.644)
Oh no. Yeah.

Lisa (40:17.012)
tasks to accomplish or go, go, go. So it's like when you're in the grocery store, it's like if you're, for example, buying fruit, like actually look at the fruit, like look at them, look at the color, look at the shape, like really look, right? So it's like, just go through all your senses and take in the environment around you. So what do you see? What do you smell? What do you hear? What do you feel? I mean, taste, I don't necessarily do that one all the time, but, and like I said, like a shower. I remember when I did mindfulness training as a resident.

Chuck LaFLange (40:43.036)
I just pictured some kid on the bus licking the fucking window for some reason. Okay. Continue. Yeah. Eating your crayons.

Lisa (40:49.716)
Right? Probably real life. But it's like when you're, can you imagine? That also happens. That also happens. But like when you're in the shower, so I remember doing in residency, we did mindfulness training and I remember, and it stood out to me, cause it was like the smack in the face of how like, yeah, we do not live mindfully is he went around and there's, there was eight residents in my year and he asked us, he said, what color is your shower?

And we were all like, uh, like most of us were not sure. Like we were like, I think it's, you know, and it's like, assuming most of us shower once a day on average. And it's just, just like, how is it that none of us could be sure about the color of our shower walls? Like, because.

Chuck LaFLange (41:23.132)
Fuck it.

Chuck LaFLange (41:33.148)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (41:40.604)
Because your mind is going a million miles a minute when you're in the shower. That's why. What an opportunity though for some mindfulness. You've got some time to yourself. You've got, right, yeah, yeah, right. Yeah.

Lisa (41:44.628)
Right? And so.

Totally. And the thing is, is what I'll say to patients is like, when you're in the shower, you cannot do all the jobs of your day. Like you're not paying your bills, you're not buying the groceries, you're not doing the thing. Like you're just in the shower. You may as well just be in the shower. And yeah, the shower is a great one because it's like there's textures, right? There's the texture of shampoos or soap bars or shower walls or water on your skin. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (42:05.788)
right?

Chuck LaFLange (42:13.373)
Oh yeah, there's a million things going on here. Yeah, right. I like that, yeah.

Lisa (42:16.404)
There's sense, there's things to see. And so, but the point is, is like with whatever it is, whether it's mindfulness or breathing, the more you practice it when you're well, or when you're having your good moments, the more effective it is when you're struggling. Because when we struggle, what we yearn for is something comforting.

Chuck LaFLange (42:36.732)
Yes.

Chuck LaFLange (42:41.82)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (42:42.356)
And the more you practice the skills, the more comforting and familiar and safe they feel, right? So it's like, if someone teaches you a skill and then three months later, you're distressed about something, you are not going to find that pleasurable. It might still help you, but you're not going to go to it as a safe, pleasurable thing to do. But if you're doing breathing every day or practicing mindfulness every day or whatever it might be, then when you struggle,

Chuck LaFLange (42:48.988)
Yes.

Lisa (43:11.86)
that feels like a familiar and by definition things that are familiar are going to feel more safe. So then going back to them can be really helpful. So that's why I asked you, are you still doing this stuff? Because, you know, don't wait to struggle to practice it. But so kind of to like, so what I'm hearing from you is that you feel like the big things that have kind of gotten you through it is therapy.

Chuck LaFLange (43:18.716)
Yes. Yes.

Chuck LaFLange (43:26.14)
Ah, makes sense, makes sense.

Lisa (43:40.372)
Right? And to me, therapy is still the things that you're doing by yourself, like practicing your breathing. You know, so it's not just when you were at Yatra, but it's also the skills you learn that you continue to practice. And the other big one is connection.

Chuck LaFLange (43:53.244)
Yes. Yeah. Hands down, connection. Connection, connection, connection. And there's something... This is an interesting thing. Because you're just sitting here talking about it, it occurs to me now, and I suppose it's always been in the back of my mind, but...

Lisa (43:59.828)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (44:13.148)
because a lot of our listeners, watchers, supporters are family members. There's something my mom does that I don't even know if she's doing with intent. But when we talk, and we talk more often now than we ever have, and I'll talk about the experience at the airport, how stressful that was, or how frustrating it is to work 16 fucking hours a day and still be counting potatoes.

Right, like, you know what I mean? Like how, like, ah, right? That is frustrating. I don't care who you are, right? To work as hard as I do and not see any financial, you know, reward from it, it'll come in time. But however, when I'm talking about those things with my mom, she validates it, right? And much like yourself, actually, as we were sitting here talking pre -recorded, Lisa, you did the same thing, but.

I think a lot of the frustration that comes in all of our relationships, but in my case, I can speak very hard to what it's like to be somebody who's in addiction. It feels like you're never validated. You can feel that way, right? Like your feelings of this or that or whatever. And when she said, oh, yeah, makes sense to me, I can totally see that, right?

Lisa (45:35.54)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (45:37.372)
It's like, oh, thank you. I'm not trying to convince you that I'm struggling. You're acknowledging it. And that's not to say that I'm being whiny or that I want somebody to say, oh, poor Chris. But it makes it really easy to move on to the next thing once it's been validated. And of course, if you're in any sort of debate or argument with anybody, that kind of technique.

Lisa (45:46.324)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (46:03.196)
you know this as well as I do, validate what they're saying to you and all of a sudden the level comes down a whole bunch, right? And so it's the same thing, my stress level just, as soon as they validate it, it's like fuck, thank you, right? Thank you, because yeah, it is really tough sometimes, right? So, you know.

Lisa (46:04.82)
Yeah.

Lisa (46:18.484)
Yeah. And I don't know if we've talked a lot about validation specifically on the show, but validation is like one of the most powerful things that you can do in any relationship. And like I do this with my six year old, like she'll be flipping out about something that to me, it's ridiculous. Like, it's like, this is not a problem kid. Like you don't even know the definition of having problems. Like you're fine.

Chuck LaFLange (46:32.7)
Yeah. Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (46:44.988)
Yeah, let me tell you what, when I was young, fuck, I'll give you something to cry about. Fuck. You know what, that's my real regret in life. I'm 46 years old and I never got to say that to anybody. I'll give you something to cry about. Fuck.

Lisa (46:48.788)
I didn't really have anything to cry about either. All right. Well, you still got a lot of years left. You know, you'll have your turn. But again, you can even see it with a six -year -old who's upset about something that to us, who've just lived more life, we know it's ridiculous, but it is not ridiculous to the six -year -old. And just saying like, yeah, like that's, that's...

really bad. Like that's really hard. Like you must be really upset about that validation. Like whether it's with my six year old, or whether it's in the emergency department with three security guards around and somebody literally like trying to, you know, throw punches, validation, validation, validation, you know,

Chuck LaFLange (47:37.148)
It's a huge tool, huge tool, right? Yeah.

Lisa (47:40.596)
powerful because people, again, people want to be seen, people want to be heard. So, and I do think, I'm going to stereotype for a minute. Sorry. I think men have a harder time with it than women because I think broad strokes, I think that men are problem solvers. They want to solve the problem. So it's like when they're presented,

Chuck LaFLange (47:46.652)
Yes.

Chuck LaFLange (48:04.572)
Yeah. You know, you qualify that with broad strokes. But like, let's say on an evolutionary level, right, you know, this is just truth, right? So whatever, right? Not all men, not all women, but there's an arc there where most men fit in, most women fit in. And it's just the way that it is, right? Sorry to interrupt you though, Lisa. Yeah.

Lisa (48:15.22)
Yep, yep, man, want us? No.

Yeah. You know, no, no, but yeah, exactly. Like I think if you do go back to caveman era, right, women took on more nurturing roles, men took on, you know, feeding the family, keeping the family safe. So I think that oftentimes the mistake that I think families sometimes make, you know, again, bringing it back into addiction is that if their loved one with addictions is venting about,

And they may all be consequences of their addiction. You know, the stress they're under, consequence of their addiction, the fact that they can't afford to go buy food, consequence of your addiction, you spent the money on drugs. But again, it's like, if you can just validate where they're at, and that they are struggling, and that that must be hard, you build connection, right? They feel heard, they feel seen, and what it'll do is invite more connection.

Chuck LaFLange (49:16.156)
without a doubt.

Lisa (49:22.068)
And with that, the hope is that ultimately it starts a journey into recovery. Right? So yes, validate, validate, validate.

Chuck LaFLange (49:28.284)
Absolutely, 100%. I couldn't agree with you more. And we'll stick on validate for a second. So for me, I've said very clearly, the podcast has so much to do with the platform in general, has so much to do with why I've been able to keep my poop in a group. Validation of purpose, right, has been huge, right? Can you imagine one of the memorial moms,

Lisa (49:52.116)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (49:57.5)
or one of Tammy or Angie or all these moms that have kids that are still in it. Can you imagine their sense of disappointment if I went back out? Right? And so, and not that I, that has to do with the thing that gives me sober, but the flip side of that is the messages and the thank yous and the.

You know what my favorite comment ever on any post is? This. Just that one word. It's validation of purpose. It's validation of purpose, 100%. Which really helps keep me on track. Because it's like, yeah man, you've got some people that are like...

Lisa (50:28.916)
I feel like I've probably done that a few times. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (50:42.588)
You know, you're helping and being of service, I mean, that's all over the 12 step programs, right? Being of service is, you know, so this is just my own version of that, I guess, if you will, right? You know, yeah.

Lisa (50:52.084)
Yeah. Yeah. Do you know what's interesting that I have a, I know somebody who is very, very, very early in recovery. Um, and like, seems to be struggling to build that community. And I, I've been sort of hearing some of this and I'm like, struggling a little bit to, uh,

appreciate how much of it is real and how much of it is perception and how much of it is, you know, sort of maybe not doing what needs to be done. Because like I see so much community, right? But then knowing somebody firsthand who is early in this and seems to be struggling to build a community of people to connect with who they feel understood by.

Um, you know, and I think that they've tried some online stuff, but then they feel like with the online stuff that there's that lack of, you know, it's just not the same connection as, as seeing someone face to face or whatever. Um, so it's just sort of, it's interesting to me because I don't know what the reality is.

Chuck LaFLange (52:11.932)
That.

without knowing the situation specifically, even if I do know that situation just from what you said.

Chuck LaFLange (52:23.324)
We tend to look for resentments and that's the disease brain doing the disease brain thing. So maybe that's not a resentment in its kind of classical definition or classic definition I should say. But it's the same idea. It's your attic brain looking for reasons that this isn't working for me. That's what that is.

Lisa (52:45.172)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that was like a very eloquent way of sort of saying exactly what my brain was like, is this real? Or is this, again, is this your addict brain's perception describing for me that there's not enough support?

Chuck LaFLange (53:02.46)
Whatever your feelings are about 12 -step, whatever they are, for somebody in early recovery, and now we have online meetings, we have all those things, there is connection, connection, connection. It's all over the place, right? One of the great examples of that that I like to say, you want to see what the recovery community's about? Tell somebody you don't have a fucking ride to an AA meeting. Watch what happens.

Lisa (53:28.5)
Really.

Chuck LaFLange (53:28.572)
Right? And you don't have to be a pretty girl to get a whole bunch of offers for a ride. Everybody in that meeting, if they can't give you a ride, they will find you a ride. Like it's the craziest thing. Right? Tell somebody you don't have a ride to a meeting, you'll see the power of that community. So I don't give a shit what your feelings are about the rooms. If you need that fellowship, that's where it is.

Lisa (53:44.532)
Yeah. Yeah.

And again, like in this particular case, this person has sort of said, well, I don't know that AA is for me. So they're doing other things and I do believe that they are exploring other things, but they have this block as to why they feel like AA is not for them. I suspect it's again, because of the, you know, the perception of religious ties.

And I mean, that was my reaction yesterday was, you know, I think you need to go to old school meetings because they've actually, I think, done some online meetings. But I think the problem with online is, again, you don't have that same sense of connection when you don't see faces or, you know, you're not physically present with somebody. And so that was, you know, again, it's that thing of people looking for reasons not to not to go to meetings when in fact, that might be.

everything that they need right there.

Chuck LaFLange (54:48.572)
I think, Lisa, what you've just done is started something. I think we should be doing a weekly Zoom meeting or whatever for anybody and everybody that wants to come on. That's what I think. I think that's something I should be doing. I certainly don't mean to volunteer your time, but it's probably something that I should be doing. It doesn't have to be a 12 -step meeting. It'd just be a meeting of people that want to get together and talk without all the structure.

I've watched other platforms do it and I don't know why that I haven't, but maybe I should be. Maybe I should be.

Lisa (55:28.34)
Yeah, I mean, I feel like there could be a huge place for that, you know, where people get to come on, they can see faces and, you know, they can speak if they want, they can listen if they want.

Chuck LaFLange (55:34.364)
Absolutely.

Chuck LaFLange (55:42.844)
Yeah, yeah, right. In this image.

Lisa (55:44.66)
I mean, it'd be so easy to fill time in a setting like that. You know what I mean? Like conversation would be so easy.

Chuck LaFLange (55:49.852)
Oh, fuck. Absolutely, right? 100%.

Lisa (55:54.964)
Wow. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (55:56.636)
Yeah, I'll have to see what I can do with Riverside here, how many people I can have in. Don't have to hit record, right? Or maybe it's Zoom. I don't know. I don't know. But definitely going to do that. Definitely going to do that.

Lisa (56:07.572)
Yeah. Would you make it closed or would you make it like, could people watch it?

Chuck LaFLange (56:13.948)
No, if you're in it, you're in it. If you're not, you're not. Right? No. I don't think any fellowship of any kind would appreciate not knowing who's watching or you know what I mean, right? So yeah, yeah, no, no. Otherwise, it's just a fucking podcast. At the end of the day, right? Right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So.

Lisa (56:22.356)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (56:30.164)
Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, I think there could be a huge space for that. Because again, like, that is, as much as there is that part of my thoughts on this that are like, you know, just go to a damn meeting. And that there may be, you know, the part of convincing themselves that they, they don't want to go to a meeting may be still there, you know, their brain functioning.

in an addicted fashion and not doing what it should be doing. This is still somebody who is early in recovery, who is, you know, succeeding at abstinence at the moment, and who does, who is yearning for some kind of connection and for whatever reason is, you know, apprehensive about going to an AA or an NA meeting. And so that's the thing. To me, it's less about...

Chuck LaFLange (57:09.532)
Yep.

Lisa (57:22.196)
Do I convince them that they need to go to a meeting? And more about what else can there be in the world that can help people in that place? And maybe six months from now, they decide to go to an AA meeting. Great. But how do we get them there? Support them where they're at and try to make them feel like they're not alone.

Chuck LaFLange (57:30.876)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (57:35.772)
Yeah. Yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely, right?

Chuck LaFLange (57:43.516)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. Right, you know, I'm not a structured 12 -step person. As Mike pointed out a few weeks ago, I guess I'm kind of living a lot of those principles, right? But yeah, maybe having a meeting that isn't 12 -step and just a safe place is a thing. Well, it has to be a thing now that we've talked this much about it, I guess, right? So, right, right, you know, yeah. And I should say, I'm not any sort of qualified recovery coach or anything, but.

Lisa (58:04.98)
There you go.

Chuck LaFLange (58:11.9)
If you've got someone in your life that's having a hard time that way, more than happy to connect with and sit down and have some conversations with, 100 % outside of any sort of group meeting. I've actually looked at the recovery coach thing, but the accreditation is more money than I have, to say the least. But it's certainly something that I've been looking at.

Lisa (58:18.708)
Yep. Yeah.

Lisa (58:36.436)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (58:37.276)
I think I might be good at.

Lisa (58:39.796)
I think so.

I mean, that's the thing is that people, I think like what people need more than anything is connection, right? They need that connection. They need that validation. Obviously, yes, we're not saying don't go to trained experts, like, yes, do all of that. But at the end of the day, like if you're struggling, it's like being able to connect with somebody who's been there, who can validate the struggle, who can like, that might be what takes what gets people through that early.

Chuck LaFLange (59:06.652)
Yeah.

Lisa (59:09.844)
that early phase until they find other things.

Chuck LaFLange (59:10.588)
Hey, my first 30 days doesn't happen without the room. So I don't know how many times I can say that, but that feeling of fellowship, right? Of just some people that get it, right? When I was going, it was every day that I could, right?

Lisa (59:16.148)
Yep.

How often did you go to meetings in those like?

Chuck LaFLange (59:24.86)
So there was two days a week where they didn't have them in Moose Draw. NA meetings, they had AA meetings. I didn't find the fellowship there the way that I did at NA. For me personally AA was, felt like I was at a swap meet with grandpa. Is what I felt like, to be honest with you. Right? And it...

Lisa (59:37.364)
And I've heard like both sides of it. I've heard people also say that they prefer AA because there tend to be older people there with more years under their belt and that they felt like there was better support because there were, you know, wiser. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (59:55.068)
without a doubt, without a doubt, right? So, and that's gonna be a preference thing every time, right, to every person. For me personally, and it might've been a resentment with the benefit of hindsight. I mean, I don't think I could, at the time, I was still so early in recovery, but I viewed it that way. But it was.

Lisa (01:00:00.916)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:00:20.092)
Things have changed, and I've spoken about this a few times, things have changed so much in the last 10 years, even five years, realistically on the street and the way things are. Right, like, somebody who's been sober for more than five years has no idea what it's like out there anymore. It's a very, very different world, very, very different world than it ever has been. So when I walked in that room, it's like none of you people can relate to what I've experienced.

Lisa (01:00:42.388)
Yeah.

Lisa (01:00:48.436)
All right.

Chuck LaFLange (01:00:48.508)
And so that might have been me looking for a resentment. But at the time, it was just a no, it was a not starter. Right?

Lisa (01:00:54.086)
And again, like I feel like that's just it is you might see it differently today. But back then, if that's how you felt, it doesn't really matter why the question is, is what else can exist for people that whether it's resentment driven or addiction minded driven or whatever that can support people who are in that early phase to get them through it, right?

Chuck LaFLange (01:01:17.788)
perceived reality is your reality. So you're bang on there, right? You know, I just actually put out a reel from from one of our episodes speaking to just that perceived reality is it's the same fucking thing, right? You know, like, you know, and that's I think so there's some validation part that plays into that as well. Yeah, the validation part. Yeah, we're going to circle back to that. Okay, I get that you feel that way about it. Good enough.

Lisa (01:01:20.532)
Yep. Totally.

Lisa (01:01:27.444)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:01:47.868)
Right? And what you were speaking to, I guess I want to touch base on that before we get into gratitude, Lisa. The men and the difference between men and women. I find it now, especially when I'm speaking to people that are still in active addiction, and they tell me the things that are going on. My initial, like as a guy, well here's what, here, do this, try this, do this, right? I want to give advice. And what I found myself doing now, have you had enough yet?

Lisa (01:02:12.742)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:02:18.684)
It's just that question. In a perfect world, what would happen? Right? From here on in. What is it that you're looking for? From me. Do you just want somebody to yell at? I'm good for that. Right? So just not, not impeding solutions for them. Because we know the fucking solution. We know the solution is to get cleaned up and straighten out our lives. We fucking know. Right? But from my own experience,

Lisa (01:02:31.7)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:02:45.276)
not like I know what I supposed to do I just want somebody to let me fucking complain about it can you can I just do that you just sit here and listen to me right and then that just goes from what I learned about women actually over the years it's funny that you said it the way you said it about you but it's like

Lisa (01:02:50.868)
Yes.

Chuck LaFLange (01:03:00.988)
Don't solve the problem for her. Don't do it. Shut up and listen. Probably going to get lucky if you do. Don't fucking solve the problem for her. She doesn't want that. Yeah. Absolutely. In a perfect world, what would happen? That's probably my favorite question. It's just, what are you looking for here? Think about that.

Lisa (01:03:02.9)
hahahaha

Lisa (01:03:07.988)
Yeah.

Lisa (01:03:14.612)
Yeah, but yeah, validation and curiosity. That's kind of what you're describing, right? And it's, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:03:30.94)
Right? You know, have you had enough yet? You know, and surprisingly, the answer is almost never no. It might be some variation, but it's never no. Sorry, go ahead.

Lisa (01:03:33.94)
Yeah. And it also, I think those, yeah. And I think that the questions that you're describing, I think that they, that validation, right, it brings their defenses down, that curiosity gets them again, less focused on trying to prove something to you and actually being introspective about, yeah, like what is going on for me and what am I looking for and what do I want, right?

Whereas I think if you come into it and you're not validating and you're providing solutions, then what you're going to run up against is the person having 101 reasons why you don't know what you're talking about, why you don't get it, why, and it's just not constructive at all, right? But the validation and curiosity, the defenses come down, the introspection goes up and you're putting it on them. Like, what do you need? Whoa, what do you, what can I do? You know, what can I help you with? What do you want?

Chuck LaFLange (01:04:10.748)
Yep.

Yes, yes, yes.

Chuck LaFLange (01:04:22.492)
Yeah, yeah, right, so.

Chuck LaFLange (01:04:28.7)
Exactly, exactly, right. So maybe I should just make up my own recovery accreditation and just print off a fucking diploma and we'll do that.

Chuck LaFLange (01:04:41.596)
I never said that. Maybe I'll edit that part out. Okay. Anyway. Well, that takes us to the hour mark, over the hour mark now. So, we didn't even talk about all the things that I wanted to talk about, but that's good. I think it's a great episode anyway, Lisa. So, that brings us to my favorite part of the show. That is the daily gratitudes. What you got for us today?

Lisa (01:05:04.276)
I am grateful for you. I, yeah, like I think that, you know, today we talked a lot about you and your journey and what's working for you and how it's working for you. And it's just another thing that you do that I think is making the world a better place. You know, I think you've got this podcast and it has not been easy. And I know that you have not had an easy year and you keep doing it despite the fact that it's not easy.

And I think a lot of people who watch this show probably don't get how, how many challenges and stressful days, like very stressful days you have had. And the fact that despite that you haven't given up and you keep going and you keep fighting and you keep trying and your focus is on helping other people when it's not been easy for you. You know?

Chuck LaFLange (01:05:58.908)
Fuck sakes. Fuck. Jerk.

Lisa (01:06:01.46)
And I mean, and you've been there for me, you know, like I've had days in the last year where it's like, you know, you were somebody that I, when I was having moments of who can I talk to about this? And it was like, you were the person I wanted to reach out to. And I think that says a lot about who you are and what you offer to people. And you've just like, you've been a great friend. You know, you're a great friend to me. And I'm

Chuck LaFLange (01:06:22.268)
Thanks.

Lisa (01:06:31.252)
proud of you. And yeah, you're welcome.

Chuck LaFLange (01:06:33.468)
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Fuck sakes. God damn it, okay. That's always humbling. Well, I mean, I think it's fair to say I have to echo some of that Lisa, right? I remember a few weeks ago before we started recording one day when I was just, I kinda had a bit of a meltdown and it was just, you made everything better in like three seconds and I was just like, fuck.

Lisa (01:06:44.34)
Hahaha!

Chuck LaFLange (01:07:01.788)
So I do, I appreciate our friendship very, very, very much. And the time that you give, I've said this a thousand times, but like.

Lisa (01:07:05.556)
same.

Chuck LaFLange (01:07:09.212)
It still blows my mind. Psychiatry is not a nine to five gig. And you've got a daughter with more energy than six kids combined, and a husband and a family to manage and all the things. And I can't begin to tell you how much I appreciate you giving your time to the show the way you have for the last almost a year now. And I got my family again.

Lisa (01:07:19.924)
Yes, I do.

Lisa (01:07:35.284)
Well, thank you for always having me. Thank you for having me. Because I, you know, I feel privileged to be here. So.

Chuck LaFLange (01:07:38.876)
Thanks for coming.

Chuck LaFLange (01:07:44.412)
And of course, my fucking mom is just the best. You know, like the best. But she, like this, the stability now for a year is unreal for me. I haven't had that ever. It's been years and years since I've been able to say I know what I'm doing for the next year and I'm comfortable with it and it's, you know.

Lisa (01:07:50.1)
She's a good one.

Chuck LaFLange (01:08:10.492)
So it's nice, it's going to be to learn some Thai and all those things. But the way that she put up once again to help me out was just like, fuck, what a sense of relief that comes with that. I'm also very grateful to every single person who continues to watch, listen, like, comment, share, do all the things down at the bottom. You know what you got to do. Every time you do any one of these things, you're getting me a little bit closer to living my best life. Now let's be honest, I'm kind of living my best life.

Lisa (01:08:10.612)
and it's safe.

Chuck LaFLange (01:08:40.444)
My best life is to make a humble living spreading the message. And the message is this. If you're in active addiction right now, today could be the day. Today could be the day that you start a lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call into detox, go to a meeting, pray, go to church, do whatever the shit it is you gotta do to get that journey started. It's so much better than the alternative. If you have a loved one who's suffering in addiction right now, you've taken the time to listen to our conversation. Just take one more minute out of your day and text them, let them know they are loved. Use the words.

Lisa (01:09:09.652)
You are love.

Chuck LaFLange (01:09:12.348)
A little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings him back. Nice.