267 -12 STEP CRASHERS

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm open and I'm glad other people have success in AA, but I am doing my smart program. And

[00:00:05] [SPEAKER_01]: as it stands right now, it seems to be working for me. I am not mixing the two. Sometimes

[00:00:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I get a little, a little defensive when people try to recruit.

[00:00:16] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's just a little bit from today's guests, the guys over at 12 step crashers podcast.

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_03]: There are a couple of great guys that got a great up and coming show. They're relatively

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_03]: new to the space, but they're doing quite well for themselves. As far as getting some

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_03]: notoriety and for good reason. Hey, listen, the title sponsor for today's episode is Arc

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_03]: that's the Alberta adolescent recovery center located in Alberta. They're a treatment center

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_03]: for adolescents who are really struggling with addiction. But their model is very unique.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_03]: They treat the whole family. They do so with this peer support program. It's absolutely

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_03]: amazing. Certainly next level. Check them out guys. You'll learn more at arc.ab.ca.

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_03]: And in the meantime, enjoy the show. Hello everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters,

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Volkans welcome to another episode of the Ash Staws podcast. I'm your host, Chuck LaFlanche,

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_03]: checking in from Krabby, Thailand, halfway around the world in different parts of Canada,

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_03]: same parts of Canada. I want to say Quebec and Ontario, but I'm not too sure. Let's

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_03]: start out with you, Eric from 12 step crashes. How are you doing?

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, Chuck, I'm doing good. Actually, I am in Quebec and so is Ev.

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay. Okay. Okay. I wasn't sure. I for some reason I had Ontario in my head.

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you're probably thinking because I'm English that I'm from Ontario.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, right? Yeah. So and I have of course, you're okay here in Quebec as well.

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_03]: How are you guys doing today? What's going on?

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Very good actually. It's another sober day. So hard to complain.

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Fuck off. Let's listen right off the bat.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_03]: You know what? It was hard to complain when I was high. When I'm sober, I got

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_03]: some shit to bitch about. So never mind with that hard to complain crap.

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Who are you talking to now? Right? I'm not a fucking newcomer.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And you're calling me out. Yeah. If it doesn't matter, we sober and life

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_00]: happens and it's sometimes it's horrible. But I know I'll joke society.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a good day for real.

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_03]: How about yourself, Eric? How are you holding up?

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, I forgot this podcast now is that 3 30 in the afternoon, just half

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_01]: an hour after I finished work. And usually when I do podcast, whatever it's

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_01]: at night, my voice has returned to normal. I've been shouting in a factory all

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_01]: day across departments. Right? Oh, my voice is shot now.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm listening to myself and going off. Damn man.

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Listen, I'm listening like you play your voice back through your headphones.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_01]: You do that? No, no, but I can hear it when I talk.

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I can feel the flim that still has

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_03]: grab some water, man. Get on it.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I'm on it. It's not going to help.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_01]: What happens is I have to do memes for two hours and not say a frigging word.

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Because you don't smoke cigarettes when you do that.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_03]: That's why. Yes.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. Yes. I understand.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll try to do so whatever.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe judge you all you want to have. I'm there with you.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Had one of my hands as we started talking.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I should have brought guys both smoke in your house. Wow.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_03]: It's just me and the dog.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_03]: He don't care. Maybe he does, but he can't ditch about it.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_03]: So whatever, you know, right?

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So don't worry.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_01]: He's been a detective cancer first.

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. Well, yeah.

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_03]: And that also goes right.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_01]: When you start sniffing around you is like, oh, fuck.

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I just figure he's always being judgy anyway.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_03]: So listen, you guys, fellow podcasters, it's been a while since I've had one on.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_03]: And of course, I've been watching you guys kind of develop your, you know,

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_03]: your game or your show, your platform, whatever we're going to call it these days.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_03]: And right off the bat, I guess I should say some great conversations

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_03]: and in a very short amount of time, I've seen your production value

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_03]: jump, jump, jump right from where you were in that first episode I watched to where you are now.

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_03]: It's it's I mean, but that's that's a natural progression.

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I feel though that you guys are making that natural progression a lot faster than

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_03]: well, certainly than I did, but then a lot of other people do as well.

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_03]: So good work for whatever that's worth coming from me, you know.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So first of all, thank you, Chuck.

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_00]: But but you know that you're the first person I came at and say,

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_00]: hey, what do you actually use?

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_00]: What's the software I should get?

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Then you've been very generous of your tips for us as well.

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_00]: That helps us ramp up a bit faster.

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, guys, just quick interruption.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Today's PSA is brought to you by FAR as families for addiction recovery.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_03]: They are a completely free service nonprofit located in Canada.

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_03]: They're aim is to help the families of people who are struggling with addiction.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And they do so with group meeting four times a month.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_03]: They have a peer to peer support system, a peer to peer support system

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_03]: that's absolutely amazing.

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_03]: And as well, if you need some real time help,

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_03]: you can call during your business hours to speak to Sydney.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_03]: You can learn more at their website at farcanada.org.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_03]: And here's your PSA with Jamie Tall.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, my name is Jamie Tall, and I want to talk to you about something

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_04]: I never leave home without.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_04]: This right here is nasal naloxone.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_04]: There are a couple of different name brands of it.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_04]: This one is called Revive.

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_04]: It is an emergency treatment for opioid overdose.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_04]: You might think, well, I don't use opioids.

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you never know whose life you could save.

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Someone who loves and someone who is love.

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_04]: So don't leave home without it.

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah. Well, I'll tell you what, man,

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I had to walk around stumbling in the dark

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_03]: for about eight months before anybody told me anything.

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_03]: And you know,

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_03]: it was like six months for sure.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And one day I was like, I wonder if there's a Facebook group for podcasting

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_03]: and look, there is a lot of them with tens of thousands of people.

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_03]: And you can learn so much so fast.

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_03]: And I can't believe that I dealt with Google and YouTube and pissed around

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_03]: and never made a single ally in the podcasting game

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_03]: until I was like six months in.

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_03]: And then that changed everything for me drastically.

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_03]: That changed everything for me.

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_03]: So once I started doing that, that's that's natural for addicts.

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Like we don't reach out.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_00]: We don't ask for help.

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_00]: We figure it out on our own.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you just crazy?

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Which is think about that for a second.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_03]: We are a recovery podcast, recovery podcast.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_03]: If somebody said that to you about their recovery,

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_03]: oh, I should have my own.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't reach out to anybody.

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, what would you say to them?

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I did the same thing.

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_03]: You're obviously, you know, you've been doing the same thing as well.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_03]: So fuck whatever that's about.

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe that's something to address.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_01]: But for dots, let's say.

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_01]: But we're in early recovery still, right?

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_01]: We're actually chronicling our early recovery.

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So we really don't know.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Can I ask?

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_01]: About fuck.

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So.

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Either do I, man, I'm almost two years in.

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know shit about fuck all but what are yourselves there?

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Where are you at in your recovery time?

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_03]: If that's something you want to talk about.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, no, that's all right.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_01]: What's the date today, the 18th?

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_01]: This is this is the first time I've actually been paying attention to it

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_01]: because it'll be a year on the 24th.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So I've actually been paying attention to it this month.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Here's why.

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Here's why.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Here you go.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_03]: I love that.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_03]: I and I'll get to yours in a second there, Ev, but I relate to that so fucking much

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_03]: for the first 50 weeks for the first 50 weeks.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_03]: It was like, I don't pay attention to it.

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just going to live for today.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not going to like whatever and I would have to do the math.

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Every time somebody asked me, I'd be like, oh fuck, what's

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_03]: OK, how many I would I couldn't even tell you how many months

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_03]: until I hit about 50 weeks.

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And then I knew that one year date was coming up.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_03]: And all of a sudden I was fucking counting.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_03]: I've never since then now.

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I do.

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I still I just live for today, but now I take a lot more pride in it

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_03]: than I did in the early days for every reason.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And I have no reason why it just suddenly kicked in on its own.

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_01]: It's it's just started to it clicked like when I got to July, I'm like,

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_01]: it's this month and then now I am like, I'm looking at almost identical

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_03]: journey to me, man.

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, almost identical journey to me.

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_03]: So congratulations, by the way, on your coming up on your one year.

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Probably not going to talk in the next five days.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_03]: So congratulations on that.

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you very much.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_03]: The 24th.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_03]: The 24th. OK, OK.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Six days for you.

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Five days for me.

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_03]: So what about yourself?

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Were you sitting at?

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't count days, but I've been to check my app not that long ago.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm around 500 day, 500 days or 17 months on like that.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't count either.

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_00]: But again, the one year mark was something that I've I've

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_00]: paid more attention to.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And the reason why I don't pay attention to it is that I've seen

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of milestone relapses.

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_00]: People are looking forward to my three months or my six months,

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_00]: but they actually white knuckling until then.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Not necessarily consciously, but but then how do you actually

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_00]: celebrate in life when you have an achievement and then relapse happen?

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, we've seen that, right?

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Right in our group a lot.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, actually what you just said is probably the reason why

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I've almost been focused on the date is to pay attention to any

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_01]: thoughts about relapse, but I haven't had any obviously.

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's like I'm not I'm a little aware for everything.

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And I want to call you out on that.

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_03]: You haven't had any thoughts about relapse?

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, none.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Really?

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, you told me one thing at one time you were driving

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_00]: your car and your car just turned to the bar on its own.

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_01]: But I didn't feel like second right?

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but that wasn't an urge or craving to drink.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_01]: That was I was feeling too good.

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And that member I told you I had another period of two years

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_01]: of sobriety in the 2010s.

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And I used to hang out in clubs with a bottle of water

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and not drink all night and just dance.

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's where my car was leading me to the club I used to

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_01]: like it might my hand was burning to the wheel turning like that.

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I went, no, you're not.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And I brought it back.

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I noticed I was drifting again.

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I went, the fuck you are.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Like people play some things, man.

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_01]: You're not going there.

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_03]: No kidding.

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, good.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Good.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm glad you didn't buddy.

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Glad you didn't.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's funny.

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I used to be able to go long periods of time, longer

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_03]: periods of time too without even thinking about it.

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Once you get to a point, you get to a point and that's it.

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Right?

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_03]: You just you're not going to be able to go back and do it normally.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_03]: And I mean, none of us are special or not.

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_03]: We'd like to think we are terminal uniqueness as one of my

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_03]: co-host Ryan likes to call it.

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I've heard that many times.

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I've heard that a lot too.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Yesterday we heard that.

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Yesterday.

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I think one of the recurring theme that we've explored on a

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_00]: podcast, Eric and I is like, even a certain discomfort, but I

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_00]: haven't really have urges at all myself either.

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_00]: A couple of things we have identified is that we before

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_00]: going to treatment, we actually accepted that we were

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_00]: addicts.

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Like not everybody comes into treatment with the same

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_00]: mindset, right?

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I had made a conscious decision that I would never be using

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_00]: anything ever before I even step foot in the treatment

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_00]: facility.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And at the same time as I was doing 10 gram of coke per

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_00]: week, I had already decided that this would come to an

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_00]: end and it would be terminal.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I know it's uncommon, I would say for most people like

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_00]: most people at least first attempt at recovery.

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_00]: You kind of feel that you, well, if only I could learn to

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_00]: drink properly again.

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like I can behave like a normal human being and

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_00]: cure my addiction is definitely the wishful thinking

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_00]: that a lot of people have.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_00]: But another thing as well is that I've traumatized myself

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and definitely discussed by the substance.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Not just scared but discussed but what the person I

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_00]: became rapidly when losing control.

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm I don't romanticize at all the substance and I

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_00]: guess I'm it's it's a I feel privileged for that.

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I also think that one of the things that

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_00]: neither Eric or I ever touch opiates.

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, the physical part of addiction, you

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_00]: don't really deal with as much myself as well.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I share that with you in that and that opiates

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_03]: were never my thing.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. So which is that it's an interesting thing in

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_03]: that I like even as a fellow stimulant loser, I don't

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_03]: know what your struggle is.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_03]: I have an idea about some of the fundamentals of it,

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_03]: but I don't know right?

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_03]: We can never know what another person goes through.

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_03]: And so when somebody chooses to put their experience

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_03]: on to somebody almost weaponize it when when

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_03]: they're when you know, an alcoholic to a drug addict

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_03]: or which I don't even think they're separate things.

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_03]: The only difference is legislation right at the end of the day.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_03]: And you know, right?

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_03]: But for me to say to an opiate user that I know anything

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_03]: about your struggle.

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't fuck clue, man.

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I just don't write, you know.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_03]: So the nerve it takes for say somebody to say

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_03]: you don't need math therapy or, you know, the

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_03]: methadone or whatever the nerve it takes for

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_03]: somebody to say you don't need medication of some

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_03]: kind or therapy of some kind or some of those toxic

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_03]: behaviors that happen in some of the fellowships.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Just blows my mind.

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_03]: It just blows my mind that that's even a thing, right?

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Of course, with a name like 12 step crashers.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_03]: What gave that away?

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Evan, I have talked about that about what your guys' brand is.

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_03]: But listen, let's talk about that actually.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Listen, why 12 step crashers?

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, that came about organically.

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_03]: What's that? OK, this is the best things usually do, right?

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_03]: But but why? Where does that come from?

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'll let you go. Go ahead.

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, originally, well, just trying to make the back story

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_00]: to that is that we have been in a treatment

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_00]: facility in Quebec that is not 12 step, which is kind of rare,

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, it is smart recovery based.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And there's maybe two or three maximum in Canada

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_00]: that do smart recovery.

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's kind of unique in its in its form

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and the common denominator is people that don't either

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_00]: have tried 12 step and it didn't work for them

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_00]: or they are not inclined for the spiritual thing, you know.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, it's science based.

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So there's data you can track it.

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_00]: You can benchmark the health programs.

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like if you have an analytic mind,

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_00]: it's hard to like do that and also consider 12 steps.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's just say it this way.

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_00]: But in our alumni group, there's a lot of steppers

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's that's not a problem in itself, but

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_00]: not long before we started the podcast,

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_00]: 12 step has been more advertised like or pushed,

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I would even say, and there was even a bit of split,

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_00]: like new meetings were added to the schedule, which is fine.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. Having options for different types

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_00]: of meeting in a community is great.

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And Eric and I at some point or smart meeting was cancelled,

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_00]: but 12 step meeting was available at the same time.

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And I call there, it says, why don't we go on that guy's

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_00]: meeting, right? So.

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And I said, well, air me out that that might actually

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_00]: inspire us for for the podcast and the page.

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And that is this is when he tagged along.

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So first of all, I got to say that in my opinion,

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_00]: regardless if it's 12 step, if it's NACA,

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Buddhism or smart or anything, the first 20 minutes,

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_00]: if you have subtracted that over any meeting

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_00]: is maybe different.

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_00]: But whenever an addict talks recovery,

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_00]: it's universal language.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_00]: For me, there's no difference.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_00]: People don't even follow topics because we're a bunch of addicts

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and we do what we want to do.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_00]: We talk about where we at and at least in our group,

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_00]: we cross talk all the time.

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's, you know, like for me, there's no difference.

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And I believe Eric, you have also acknowledged that.

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I believe the the topic was acceptance,

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_00]: whatever step one, the only step I do.

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, step I did before going to treatment, you know.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And we came in last.

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Must have been at least like 40% on a web meeting.

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's less, more than two hours.

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_00]: That was a long meeting.

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And we came in last or two of the last shares

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and we actually like no pretension or anything,

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_00]: but we literally crashed the thing,

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_00]: bringing in smart concept and like tying the program

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_00]: with the step itself.

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And we were actually like closed

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and a lot of people reached out to me,

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_00]: what a fantastic share on messenger.

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, well, something just happened.

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I believe we just crashed a 12 step meeting.

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_00]: It was not ill intended or anything.

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_00]: We really just being the same authentic

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and genuine addicts talking recovery.

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And we are both not inclined for different reasons

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_00]: for 12 step, but we are also both curious about it.

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_00]: So, well, there's a thing.

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I believe we have a name like and I told Eric,

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_00]: you know the movie wedding crashers,

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_00]: well, it could be a bit more respectful than they are,

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_00]: but you know, like you get the concept.

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_00]: They're always accepted wherever they go

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_00]: because they don't cross certain lines.

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And in our pilot episode that's the statement that I made

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_00]: like I really to bet with you Eric

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_00]: that wherever whichever meeting we go

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_00]: we'll never be told to leave

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_00]: because we know how to respect the community

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_00]: and actually just follow the codes.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And most definitely we will learn

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_00]: from all the fellowship we come across.

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's the basis innocence of all this.

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And then we came across pages like 12 step humor.

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Not sure if you're, you know that guy.

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I probably come across him.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I says there's a bunch of them that are,

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_00]: well, they are very acid.

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And I would even say like bitter sometimes

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_00]: the mean that it produced was well

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_00]: we're gonna have something a bit more chilly

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_00]: or like reflective like we got a friendly critique

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_00]: if you want some time or just like more on the light side.

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Tongue and cheek and whatever, right?

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't have to be horribly offensive, right?

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'll admit if I can interrupt you

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_03]: when I first came across it was like,

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if I wanna share this shit

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_03]: because like I don't know if I wanna cross that line

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_03]: because I don't wanna piss people off in 12 step

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_03]: and I'm not a 12 steper.

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_03]: But still I've been, here's the thing

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_03]: you might find this as your podcast continues to evolve.

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_03]: For the first year every time I had a hard

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_03]: when I call a hardcore 12 steper come on

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_03]: it was like, oh fuck,

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_03]: it's gonna be one of these 12 steper no step guys

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_03]: and I'm gonna be really worried about it.

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Never, not once.

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_03]: The people that I expected to be that

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_03]: were all very accepting and very open.

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_03]: It's the vocal minority of people

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_03]: that we tend to focus on and that's what we get ready for

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_03]: but it's that guy never comes in.

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_03]: You never see that guy.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like on the main game, it's the troll

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_00]: that make the most noise but they're in their minority.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I agree with you.

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And perhaps we will eventually regret the name

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_00]: of the podcast but so far it really is our journey.

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Actually I don't believe we will regret it

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_00]: but it will probably evolve in its meaning

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_00]: or in the way we approach it.

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Who knows, you don't know what you don't know

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_03]: about the future of that.

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_03]: I can tell you then.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_03]: The show I have today is wildly different

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_03]: than 260 episodes ago.

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_03]: It's wildly different than 130 episodes ago.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_03]: It's wildly different than 50, like it just,

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_03]: okay, than 100 episodes ago.

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_03]: But like it changes, it evolves,

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_03]: it goes up and down back and forth at my opinions do.

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_03]: My issues I think are important too.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm sure you'll experience the same thing

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_03]: just because that's what we are, we're humans.

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_03]: And more knowledge we gain,

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_03]: the more things we're exposed to,

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_03]: the more our opinion, whatever,

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_03]: you know what I'm saying.

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't need to fucking grow an ass man.

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't need to tell you how it is when you grow up.

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_00]: But you're right in many ways.

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_00]: We are in infancy of this project

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and we already, I'm gonna speak for myself

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_00]: but we chatted on that recently, Eric and I,

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_00]: but I've grown a lot from doing that.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I have changed perspective on many things.

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Like things that I said on previous episodes

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_00]: on the first one, but most particularly

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_00]: are not relevant in my mindset today, you know?

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's just a couple of weeks ago.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Some assumptions about 12 step

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_00]: because we were exposed to a specific person

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_00]: that doesn't represent A,

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_00]: that has his own, you know,

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_00]: that's the person that's not the movement

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_00]: but we add a certain build up of resentment

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_00]: or apprehension or disagreement.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like all of these negative things

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_00]: towards that specific person

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_00]: towards predatory behaviors,

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_00]: we would observe, you know,

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_00]: all these kinds of things that are cliche, if you will,

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_00]: but that does not represent the entire thing.

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_03]: So it really is a vocal minority, right?

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Those toxic egos, those guys that weaponize a clean time,

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_03]: the things that we're all get like,

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_03]: like the God pushers, like, whatever,

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_03]: but it really is a vocal minority of people.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, like at the end of the day, fuck, you know?

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Eric, it sounds like you might be a little,

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_03]: you were a little more correct me.

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to put words in your mouth

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_03]: but you were a little more resistant.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah?

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I still am, but that first episode,

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I have a hard time watching that one

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_01]: because we don't do that anymore.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_01]: It was on a day I had therapy.

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_01]: So I had that in my therapy that day

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and that therapy that day,

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_01]: that session was about anger and management.

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So if you watch, if you see that first podcast,

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I am amped, I am amped the whole episode

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's over two hours long

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and every little thing Ev says in that episode triggers me.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just like, we discussed this.

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Never again are we doing a podcast

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_01]: on the day that I had therapy.

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_01]: This is not a thing anymore

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_01]: because I look back at it.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_03]: I wonder if there are changes of overtime though, right?

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Therapy should not leave you feeling amped.

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Therapy should be the opposite of that.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Usually it doesn't but for some reason

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_01]: that day everything we talked about was triggering

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and I just laid into it a hundred percent.

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Like the person he's talking about,

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I laid into him a hundred percent in that episode.

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And I look more than deserved, I would say.

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_01]: More than deserved.

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Have I told you about episode 224?

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_03]: I think you started to listen to it.

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if you ever got through it

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_03]: where Mike Miller defends the fundamentals of 12 steps.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, I've listened to that one specifically

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_00]: because you share me the link.

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_00]: We were talking about that topic, yeah.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Eric, give it a listen.

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, 24.

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Give it a listen, man.

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it is, it's episode 224.

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_03]: We just talked about it in a recording I did yesterday.

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_03]: That's why it's on the top of my head now.

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Mike is as like, he's as aphious as they come

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_03]: as far as the God thing goes

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_03]: but he just celebrated his 20 years on June 5th

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_03]: and he's a 12-stepper.

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_03]: And the way he describes the fundamentals

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_03]: and really, we hear principles over personalities

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_03]: but the way he so eloquently explains all of that

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_03]: from his point of view, really opened my mind

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_03]: in a giant way to what the potential is

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_03]: for the 12-step programs.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Now I will go listen to that.

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for telling me exactly where to find it.

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is my issue.

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Now I'm gonna explain myself more clearly.

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I've dabbled in 12 steps.

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I went to meetings, I tried to get into it a bit.

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_01]: When you're in your early recovery

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_01]: you wanna have all the tools at your disposal, right?

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_01]: You wanna know how to recover properly, right?

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, guess what?

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_01]: For me, how to recover properly

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_01]: was not to do two programs at the same time.

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't, I've stopped that for me.

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm open and I'm glad other people have success in AA

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_01]: but I am doing my smart program

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and as it stands right now, it seems to be working for me.

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I am not mixing the two.

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, absolutely.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_01]: No, in nor...

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_01]: But 100%

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So sometimes I get a little defensive

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_01]: when people try to recruit me

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_01]: or try to sell me on AA

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_01]: when almost like they're disparaging my program, right?

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well no, what you really need is this.

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, no, I fucking don't know.

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Which is the same way.

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_03]: So because of that, because what you just said,

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_03]: what I think is really important

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_03]: is that we acknowledge that people who are 12-sephers

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_03]: experience the exact same feelings

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_03]: when we say this is what we don't like about 12 steps, right?

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_03]: That's right.

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And we're like, hey man, this should save my life, right?

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_03]: For 25 years I'm dead if this doesn't happen.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's really instant,

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_03]: like this kind of fight thing that they go into

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_03]: as soon as you say anything disparaging

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_03]: about the fellowships, right?

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's something for me that I'm hyper aware of now

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_03]: not because I'm afraid of the reaction

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_03]: but because I'm respectful of other people's reaction to it.

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Much the same, I would never try and push anything on you.

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not a 12-sepher, so why would you not?

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Right, no, I understand.

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_03]: The reason I say to listen to that episode is

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_03]: not to get you into 12 steps

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_03]: but just to defend the program,

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_03]: not to promote it to you but just like this,

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_03]: he really just put to bed so many of those miscarriages.

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Another thing that we all have, right?

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and we've talked to several 12-stepers,

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_00]: not that much on the podcast just yet but off the record.

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And most of them are even more critical

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_00]: that we are toward that specific subset of individual

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_00]: because it also affects the brand of A&E.

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yes, yes.

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And then there was reassuring.

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_01]: In our alumni group, we have people doing both programs

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_01]: or we have some that are just steppers

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and many of whom I respect

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and I listen to their opinions on the subject, right?

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_01]: But like you said, there is a subset

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and like you said, they want their program to be respected.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_01]: They don't like what's out there

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_01]: or what's said disparagingly about them.

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Same goes here.

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, it goes four ways.

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Of course, right?

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, yeah.

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And from our point of view,

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_00]: we learned recently it's not the case

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_00]: because our own group was essentially

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_00]: it started as a 12-step.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Even though we are a smart community

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and we come from a smart facility

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and this is supported by their money, right?

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_00]: But originally when that started online,

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_00]: people were stepping on those meetings.

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_00]: There were maybe like a bunch of them.

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Now it's drawn into a large community

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and we came out of the treatment into the meetings

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_00]: in a smart mindset, like it's linear for us.

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_00]: It's more complicated than that in reality

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_00]: in the community as history.

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_00]: It's been going on for four years.

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_01]: There's like a lot of things

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_00]: our assumptions we didn't know.

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, four or five members

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_00]: that are original steppers to the online meetings.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_00]: It's COVID that started the meetings online

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_00]: for most fellowships, right?

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_03]: I came across something with smart recovery

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_03]: about a year ago now, coming up on a year anyway,

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_03]: where I was trying really hard to find a facilitator

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_03]: to come on and talk about smart recovery.

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_03]: This is when I was in Alberta still.

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_03]: What a horrible time I had trying to do that.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'll tell you what happened for me internally

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_03]: as a result.

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_03]: I went into three different Facebook groups

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_03]: and asked, does anybody wanna come onto a podcast?

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_03]: I was immediately kicked out of two of them for asking.

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And then it was one of the kind of the higher ups

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_03]: or whatever, one of the, I don't know

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_03]: how the structure works that way.

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_03]: But somebody who has something to do

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_03]: with the Alberta Smart Recovery Program,

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_03]: I was messaging with him and he's like, yeah, no,

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_03]: we're not interested.

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_03]: You can come to a meeting if you want,

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_03]: but no, we won't be doing anything like that.

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_03]: It was like this whole like, I don't understand

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_03]: what's, it felt like a cult.

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And then for me, it put up a bunch of walls.

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_03]: It was like, why the fuck would anybody talk to me about it?

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Right?

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Like it was really hard to get anybody

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_03]: to talk to me about it.

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Since then I've had some people willing to do it.

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_03]: And I've had one guy come on and Mike out in Alberta,

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Mike Loegman who's just amazing.

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_03]: But in the beginning, man, it was like,

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_03]: if you don't want people to think you're a cult

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_03]: and stop acting like a fucking cult

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_03]: because that's what's happening right now.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Eric, the only person we've blocked

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_00]: on the page to my knowledge is a crazy lady

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_00]: at that administer smart group

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_00]: because we were trying to advertise our page on there.

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is not smart.

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_00]: You're, you haven't discussed 12 step,

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_00]: 12 step do not even exist.

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_00]: We don't talk about them as like, well,

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe you are a bit psychoridged,

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_00]: you look like, you know, like things like this

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and we can talk about them.

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_00]: She wouldn't have it.

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I haven't wrote an email to the administration of smart.

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I hadn't looked forward for a reply.

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's like, just by the way,

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_00]: this person is a licensed professional.

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Like she's been, she's actually insulting people

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_00]: on the internet so you may want to look into this.

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I left it there and blocked the lady from her page

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and pursue her adventure, you know?

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's really not to say that toxicity

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_00]: is limited to a program or the other.

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, yeah, I guess so, right?

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Volcan minorities are gonna happen either way, right?

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Anywhere you go.

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And herein lies some of my reasoning

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_01]: for the page, for the podcast.

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_01]: What I've often told them and what I don't like

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_01]: in my opinion, what I don't like about certain aspects.

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, apparently of both groups,

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't like, I can't say that word,

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_01]: on amenity, you know?

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Being anonymous.

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Anonymity.

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Anonymity.

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't like being anonymous.

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_01]: When I went into treatment,

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_01]: the email, I took a leave of absence from my work,

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_01]: personal leave of absence,

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I was gone for a month, I thought it was two weeks.

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I thought it was gone two weeks,

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd been a month.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_01]: That's how far off I was down the rabbit hole

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and hit rock bottom.

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And so when I got into treatment,

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_01]: when I got accepted, I sent an email

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and I addressed it to everyone in the company.

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_01]: It went to the secretary, the administrators,

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_01]: the foreman, the high ups, everybody knew where I was going.

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I announced it to the world basically at my work, right?

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So it was never a question.

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And somehow for some reason in my brain,

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_01]: it was if you're gonna succeed,

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_01]: if you're gonna recover, you can never lie about this.

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So you may as well get it over with now

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and tell everybody.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And in some ways, I don't know why

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_01]: this is how my brain works.

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm also neurodivergent.

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I've told Ed before, Ed before,

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_01]: there's things I won't say out loud

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_01]: because my brain decides, okay, if you say it out loud,

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_01]: you have to do it now.

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm very careful actually in some things.

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I say I will do.

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_01]: They ain't gonna kill me.

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I manifest it almost.

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_03]: So and you're still now with the benefit of a year,

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_03]: we'll say it's a year, you're less than a week away.

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Do you still believe that you did the right thing?

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I have no, I have no regrets.

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_03]: No? Okay, okay.

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm not saying that you should.

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just curious as to if you're thinking changes

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_03]: on that after a year or not.

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_01]: It is what it is.

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I get it at the time and I don't regret it.

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Cool.

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I have a similar story and perhaps different experience,

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_00]: but I also took it to my personal Facebook page

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_00]: with like near 5,000 people that most of them,

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I had professional link or you know,

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_00]: like it was a risky business for me to say, okay,

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_00]: by the way, I'm a cocaine addict

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'm going in rehab and we'll talk in 30 days.

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_00]: But that was also commitment for me.

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_00]: There was part of fact that I've lied so much,

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_00]: especially to people that were closest to me.

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I really wanted to come into sobriety

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_00]: with the intent of being attending honest,

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_00]: vulnerable and never lie again.

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Like it's more important in my program

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_00]: to not lie than not use.

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Not that not music is not important.

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Not that abstinence is not my program.

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just that-

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_03]: But if you, lying is a fast track to relapse.

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_03]: So I can totally appreciate why you say that.

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I am wary of my behavior much more than my craving.

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, of course, because I don't have cravings,

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_00]: but like if I have multiple relapse, right?

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_00]: It's the emotional mindset change.

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is where I intervene with myself

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_00]: not because I've picked up the substance,

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_00]: but my mindset is the mindset of an addict

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and then there's something I need to do to fix that.

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_00]: But I'll let you say that I came clean about this

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and I received a phenomenal amount of support.

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, I didn't check,

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_00]: but maybe lost a thousand people that unfriended me for that.

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's a good thing.

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously-

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_00]: That needed to happen.

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_00]: You know?

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And so that part I do not regret.

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_00]: However, you know like the stigma hasn't left me.

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's funny because I wasn't trusted.

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I was considered an expert in my career

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_00]: in a lot of my hobbies, in parenting.

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a big one, parenting.

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Most of my friends had kids later in their life than me,

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_00]: so they were coming up to me for my advice,

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_00]: what not, about their own children.

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_00]: You know?

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_00]: All of those things are things that I greatly

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_00]: underestimated the impact of saying,

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_00]: A, I'm a drug addict by the way,

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_00]: onto the legitimacy of well being entrusted

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and just like people not to assume that I'm a threat to,

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_00]: well, my company, a threat to my children,

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_00]: a threat to whatever it is.

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I didn't know before going to treatment

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_00]: that the sixth straight in 12 months for cocaine is 3%.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't care even because I made that decision.

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I will never use again.

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_00]: For me, it's like, well, I don't know,

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_00]: but then for some reason I ended up in family court.

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And my family court case was also the same spirit.

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I just say the truth, the ugly one,

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_00]: the cute one, all the truth,

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_00]: which didn't play my favor.

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_00]: But then again, I was very naive

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_00]: as a human being to begin with,

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_00]: but as an addict and definitely as a recovering addict.

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't regret that,

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_00]: but I still have to deal with that stigma daily.

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Of course.

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Of course.

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And in a way, I'm grateful for that

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_00]: because well, all of a sudden I had to submit drug test

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and not only the regular ones,

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_00]: air follicles test, which dates back 90 days legally.

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Not that I would consider relaxing,

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_00]: but it was not an option.

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And all those testing costs,

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_00]: about as much as I would be spending on drugs

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_00]: are my worst.

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_00]: So there's that as well.

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I need to be able to afford those tests

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's not a given.

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And I guess that that game of authenticity,

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I could have lost.

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Many times I felt like resorting to lie to protect myself

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_00]: or just like white lies.

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And I refuse to do that

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_00]: because if I do for me, that's my addict mindset.

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_00]: That's me relapsing.

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't have to use.

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I could spend 10 years not using,

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_00]: but if I'm lying my way out of the shit,

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_00]: that's for me it's the person I don't want to be.

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_03]: The way it was explained to me by Mike Miller actually,

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_03]: the first time I heard it,

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_03]: now it's something that I've heard many, many times since.

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_03]: But it was that if you start living out of alignment

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_03]: with your values,

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_03]: you start feeling shitty about yourself.

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_03]: You start feeling shitty about yourself.

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_03]: That's a quick way to relapse.

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Because now you've got feelings you don't want to feel

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_03]: because your behaviors aren't something you're proud of

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_03]: and all those things.

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's a straight line to it.

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, that you are very much,

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I see exactly what you're saying there.

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Go ahead, what do you wanna say?

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I just wanted to say that if I have to do it again

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and consider all the impacts,

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_00]: perhaps I would have limited my total transparency

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_00]: to a subset of people that are in my circle

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_00]: rather than the entire world.

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_00]: But if I would have done that,

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I would not have had the opportunity to be on a podcast

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_00]: either as a guest or as an host.

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm speaking the truth to the entire world right now

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'm comfortable with it because well,

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_00]: this is what it is and I'm already labeled

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_00]: as a fucking addict.

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So what else could I lose from talking about

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_00]: getting better?

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no kidding, right?

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_03]: For me getting into this so early,

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_03]: like we were talking I was sober for three months

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_03]: and I got into podcasting.

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_03]: I guess very similar in that whole world knows.

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_03]: So whatever, here we go, right?

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_03]: It's just, it is what it is.

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_03]: A funny thing with me is the podcast became

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_03]: a major part of my recovery, right?

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Had I went and got a job in a warehouse or whatever

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_03]: because I was in trucking for years and years

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_03]: or whatever I was gonna do,

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't believe that I'm sober today.

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think I had a chance had I gone and done that

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_03]: because I'd had at the time those resentments

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_03]: about 12 step and that would have been by far

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_03]: the easiest fellowship for me to be a part of

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_03]: and there was, yeah, I think I would have,

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think there's any way I'm sober

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_03]: if I'd not chosen to go the route of the podcast

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_03]: but I eat shit and breathe recovery for 16 hours a day

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_03]: and it makes it a little bit easier, right?

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think we both can relate because in essence

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_01]: what we've done besides our meetings with our alumni group

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Eve and I are constantly working on memes

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and then we have our podcasts.

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So it feels like we're living in recovery all the time too

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and actually the memes are for me.

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I find them quite therapeutic

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_01]: because the ones that I change over anyways,

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a lot of me coming out.

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of situations,

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_01]: especially therapy ones and the DLC ones come out

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and they're just stuff I did or stuff I thought.

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So it feels like therapy.

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_03]: What type of therapy are you doing

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_03]: if you don't mind me asking that?

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Can you, are you okay to talk about that?

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_01]: It's CBT, it's a continuation of the smart really.

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_01]: It's CBT therapy in,

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_01]: but yeah, it's a little different than the rehab

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_01]: because with the therapist you're actually

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_01]: getting to your emotions.

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_01]: They want you to describe things as feelings,

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_01]: not as not thoughts.

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_01]: So if I start to say something and I'm trying to explain it,

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I get shut down.

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no.

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I want you to feel like tell me how you were feeling.

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Tell me what the emotion is.

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's hard, right?

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I got a 55 minute session and I'll spend 40 minutes

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_01]: going in a circle because I got this weird ADHD,

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_01]: neurodivergent brain.

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And the last 15 minutes will be therapy

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_01]: when she finally rains me in.

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like I circled the drain until I get close enough

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and she goes, okay, right there.

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Stop right there.

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I want you to sit here at this moment.

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't know, like if you know about my journey

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_03]: of like how I got to Thailand, do you know that?

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't see anything about you getting to Thailand.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_03]: So Mike Miller, who is the guy that I was talking about earlier,

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_03]: he heads up the Yachtra trauma center here in Thailand.

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_03]: They treat trauma therapy, he does trauma therapy

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_03]: and that's all they do, right?

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_03]: There's a recovery component to that

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_03]: and where addiction is a smoke, trauma is a fire

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_03]: is one of their taglines.

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Most certainly it was a case in my situation.

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_03]: But he came on the show, June 5th of last year.

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_03]: I hit stop recording at the end of the episode

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_03]: and he said, you've got some shit you need to deal with.

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_03]: It was like, it's like, oh, is that obvious?

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Right? And lucky I did, right?

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_03]: I sort of did.

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_03]: At that point I would have been six months clean, right?

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_03]: So he said, hey, if you can get to Thailand,

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll give you a scholarship, but you gotta get here.

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_03]: So a few months later,

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_03]: I got on a plane to come to Thailand

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_03]: and I haven't left since I got here, right?

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_03]: So I came, I did the 30 day at the trauma therapy, CBT,

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_03]: internal family assistance therapy, CBT,

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_03]: fuck whatever you're missing.

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, EMDR, EMDR, if you get an opportunity to do EMDR,

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_03]: holy, can you change my life?

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it didn't work for me, EMDR though actually.

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_03]: No, no.

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Something about skepticism and EMDR

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_00]: that blocks you from accepting it, I think.

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_01]: People have tried it with me and they're like,

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_01]: no, it's not gonna work for you.

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_01]: You can leave now.

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So you're right.

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_03]: I would be curious, Mike is so gifted

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_03]: and I think everybody's gonna say that

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_03]: about their therapist or whatever, right?

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_03]: But like, oof, fuck.

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_03]: He took for me the most traumatic memory I have.

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_03]: It was just to give it a name

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_03]: at the beginning of the session, I melted down

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_03]: 20 minutes later and since I've been able to talk

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_03]: about it, it's a matter of fact way.

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_03]: So it was pretty amazing experience for myself, right?

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_03]: But wow, wow, yeah.

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_00]: We're giving it a shot, that's for sure.

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, have you gone down the therapy road yourself ever?

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, right now I'm not in the active psychotherapy.

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm waiting for, because I specifically have PTSD

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_00]: that has been diagnosed and that needs specific therapy.

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm gonna wait list for that.

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_00]: For a specialist that will do that with me.

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm followed by a social worker

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_00]: who's also unofficially, but still a therapist, right?

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So on the weekly basis and it's been 17 months

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and sometimes twice a week,

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_00]: that has been my grounding resource.

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Going through a divorce in early recovery

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and self esteem down the drain and co-dependency

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_00]: that's definitely more hard core than drugs for me.

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_00]: It kept me afloat, I would say.

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And now I'm getting to the stable phase, I would say,

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_00]: where I have cherry specific therapy lined up,

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_00]: but my post treatment plan is 24 months.

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_00]: So for me, I'm remaining rehab after rehab

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_00]: for two entire years.

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_00]: That you know, I'm 17 months in,

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_00]: probably behind schedule.

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So it might take three years to achieve all of my goals.

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, it's going pretty well, I would say,

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_00]: in the circumstances and the podcast, as Eric said,

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_00]: has been extremely useful for my own recovery

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_00]: because you know, you get into a meeting,

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_00]: there's a topic that you didn't choose

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and you can just ramble.

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Like it doesn't have to be true.

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to think it true.

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_00]: It can be extremely just negative.

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And there's not necessarily value if you don't,

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_00]: again, if you don't work in that meeting.

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_00]: But on a podcast what I consider,

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_00]: we don't even have an audience that is that important,

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_00]: but whoever could listen to it at any moment,

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_00]: like it helps me or forced me to think it twice

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_00]: before I actually open my mouth.

[00:46:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Eric sometimes like,

[00:46:25] [SPEAKER_00]: like Eric likes to play devil's advocate with me

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and like I welcome this because well,

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I like being challenged,

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_00]: but in that case, it sparked reflection

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_00]: that I wouldn't definitely not have on my own,

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_00]: that I would probably not receive from a feedback

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_00]: that is generally pretty light in a meeting

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and I would definitely not get from my social worker

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_00]: that is there essentially to validate me.

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So someone that actually challenged or not doubt,

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_00]: but like have you second guessed yourself kind of thing

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_00]: has been pretty interesting,

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_00]: but also hearing other people that have stories

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_00]: that have nothing to do with mine,

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_00]: thinking about like autistic people that we've had,

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_00]: we've had opiate addicts,

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, like it's something that I know nothing about.

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_00]: So, but the recovery is one in the same for everybody.

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just like there's so much more

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_00]: that I don't know versus the thing I know

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and I have a tendency to be an opinionated person

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and it keeps me humble, I would say.

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's good.

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_03]: That's good.

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_03]: That's good.

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Nothing wrong with being humble.

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I try, I don't always succeed, but I try.

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_03]: It's been interesting for sure, right?

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_03]: What you got, what's your plans like?

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_03]: What do you got coming up on the podcast?

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's talk about that.

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_03]: First, no, sorry, I'm bouncing around.

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_03]: What was your last episode?

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Because I wanna give people an opportunity to,

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_03]: we've gotta steer in your way, right?

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_03]: It's half the benefit to be an honor show

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_03]: is to tell people about what's going on in your world.

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_03]: So as we come up to the last couple segments here,

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_03]: what was your last episode that you released?

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Do you wanna tell us about that?

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Is it, well we have one coming out,

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_01]: but it hasn't been released, right Ev?

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_01]: There's the last one in my memory is my episode

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_01]: where I did something a little,

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe not out of character, but maybe a little risky.

[00:48:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, oh.

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm grateful by an added connective addiction

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and reflecting on that.

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So Eric got pulled to say to the Lies.

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_00]: There's nothing bad happening.

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Sorry, what?

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, explain.

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I got a call from someone I went to rehab with

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm gonna be non-specific here, right?

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_01]: They were kicked out of their house

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and they needed help to get their stuff

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and ride to the place, right?

[00:49:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So when I spoke to them, they sounded fine.

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And so in my mind, I have the memory of this person

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_01]: that I knew for about a month and a half in rehab

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and this person was a good person.

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_01]: This person had good qualities, a fun person, vibrant.

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_01]: It took me a while to track them down in the city

[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_01]: because they were putting me off

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_01]: and I could tell there was something wrong

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and by the time they finally arrived at the meeting spot

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_01]: where I'm supposed to help them

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and grab their stuff, put it in the car,

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_01]: they're hammered, they're just out of their mind

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and then they put it, you know,

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm in early recovery and I know this person

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm dealing with my own emotions

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_01]: while managing their behaviors

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm not a counselor.

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is something we talked about

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_01]: in that last episode.

[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, is that the one that was recently released

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_03]: or the one that's coming up?

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's the one that's coming up.

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what it's talking about.

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's see, okay.

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm releasing it after we finish this recording

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_00]: so we are the 18th, so later tonight it will be online.

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_00]: But yet, just to elaborate on your question, Chuck,

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_00]: we have two different distinct format.

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_00]: So we have the actual podcast

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_00]: on which we have a guest or more,

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_00]: about at least one guest for each episode

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and we also do what we call the freestyle Sundays.

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So instead of going on a meeting on Sunday,

[00:50:51] [SPEAKER_00]: we kind of reflect on our week or on random topics.

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_00]: We go like very full ADHD mode, only the two of us.

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, the latest one was what Eric just explained.

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_00]: The one before in that freestyle session

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_00]: was me going on a date, finding myself in the bar

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_00]: because I choose so and is that a good idea

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_00]: in early recovery?

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So we reflect on our actual behaviors in real time.

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_00]: So we're working on a program with an audience.

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what it is for the freestyle.

[00:51:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And the one before that was Potter's Day.

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's an opening with me being vulnerable

[00:51:27] [SPEAKER_00]: for 20 minutes about my shortcoming as of that, essentially.

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he did a modern log for like 18 to 20 minutes.

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I could have left the room, had dinner, come back.

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_01]: He still would have been talking.

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So we can never tell what's going to happen, right?

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I was trying to answer your question.

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Your question was did you have a good day today?

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I should have brought that up, huh?

[00:51:54] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, for the guests we have on the podcast,

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_00]: the latest we did was with Neurodivergent Experience.

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a group that is out there.

[00:52:06] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a Facebook group called Tell Me Your Neurodivergence

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_00]: without telling me.

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_00]: So we had two of their staff, so one admin, the founder

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and a moderator, and it was Discussed Recovery

[00:52:18] [SPEAKER_00]: from a Neurodivergence perspective.

[00:52:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So recovery...

[00:52:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I've watched a big chunk of that one.

[00:52:24] [SPEAKER_03]: That's some really good talk in there.

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_03]: There's some great conversation in there.

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Right, and the statistic that struck me

[00:52:29] [SPEAKER_00]: that was revealed to me on that podcast

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_00]: is that 80% of people with Neurodivergent

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_00]: will develop at some degree substance abuse problem,

[00:52:40] [SPEAKER_00]: either from self-medication or...

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh yeah, there's massive correlations.

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, absolutely there is.

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, sure.

[00:52:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_03]: And where do people...

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_03]: You're on Spotify and YouTube?

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Correct, yes.

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Right? Yeah, yeah.

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And we have a main page that kind of competes with yours as well.

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, no.

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not competition.

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_01]: At least not yet.

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_01]: There's no competition.

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm kidding.

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Competition happens at the bottom,

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_03]: collaboration happens at the top.

[00:53:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh yeah, that's what it is.

[00:53:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, 100%.

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And we're not going to name drop anybody.

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I always mean to share more of your stuff.

[00:53:18] [SPEAKER_03]: And then when I think about it, it's like,

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_03]: shit, I just posted.

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_03]: And then, okay, I'll go back in

[00:53:23] [SPEAKER_03]: and I'll get something as...

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm shiny and I don't, right?

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_03]: So the best way, and I'll tell you,

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_03]: it's the same way I do with Chantel.

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_03]: The best way you can do it,

[00:53:30] [SPEAKER_03]: if you think you got a killer like a banger meme,

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_03]: message me with it.

[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_03]: And then I'll be like, okay, now I know when to share.

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_03]: We could open it.

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Yours is one of the pages that I do try to do that with, right?

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but we could open an inter-page chat kind of thing.

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_00]: But I don't know if you already have one.

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:53:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, absolutely, right?

[00:53:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I could add it onto my list of group chats

[00:53:49] [SPEAKER_03]: that I sometimes never open.

[00:53:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, same for me.

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Can imagine...

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_01]: That sounds like me.

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Part of the challenge I have is

[00:53:57] [SPEAKER_03]: in those early days when I was doing six episodes a week,

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_03]: especially, but even since then,

[00:54:02] [SPEAKER_03]: the mothers, the fathers of people who suffer an addiction

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_03]: are all in my Facebook list, right?

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_03]: On my Messenger list.

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_03]: So I have conversations with moms of people who have...

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_03]: We've lost moms of people who are still in it.

[00:54:18] [SPEAKER_03]: I have these conversations on daily, right?

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_03]: So I have like, there's a lot of open conversations

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I have at any given time.

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_03]: So sometimes it's easy to get lost

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_03]: in the fray if you will, right?

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_03]: You know?

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_03]: And if one of those moms,

[00:54:31] [SPEAKER_03]: especially somebody who's lost somebody,

[00:54:32] [SPEAKER_03]: shows up on my Messenger,

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_03]: it's like your recovery royalty.

[00:54:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I have to, like you get my time above

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_03]: and over everything else, right?

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, yeah.

[00:54:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we add that actually three weeks ago

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_00]: for the first time we lost a brother in sobriety.

[00:54:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And not to addiction to medical complications.

[00:54:56] [SPEAKER_00]: But yes, we witnessed for the first time

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_00]: the impact we add on their loved ones.

[00:55:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Because even the texts I wrote on the page,

[00:55:08] [SPEAKER_00]: like spontaneously, a large chunk of it

[00:55:11] [SPEAKER_00]: was used for the obrituary.

[00:55:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know these people.

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I never met them, you know?

[00:55:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Like it says, well, perhaps we do are in something good.

[00:55:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And correlation as well, not in silicaization,

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER_00]: but we did a freestyle podcast on that topic

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's the most viewed episodes.

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_00]: It's the most watched, yeah.

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_00]: That we have, yeah.

[00:55:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Wow, wow, yeah, right?

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_03]: And it gets...

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_03]: That's all finding the why, right?

[00:55:40] [SPEAKER_03]: When the why starts to develop,

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_03]: things just get better for you.

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_03]: They just do, right?

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, because then it's...

[00:55:47] [SPEAKER_03]: You're not going to find any more authentic thing than that

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_03]: and then wanting to help people

[00:55:53] [SPEAKER_03]: and wanting to empathize and wanting to...

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not even sure how to...

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_03]: The verbage I'm looking for there.

[00:55:58] [SPEAKER_00]: But being of service.

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Some mom said to me early on, you know,

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_03]: when you figure out the why, the how just comes

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_03]: and things have since then, right?

[00:56:06] [SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, that's it, being of service, right?

[00:56:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:56:08] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's eye-opening, right?

[00:56:10] [SPEAKER_01]: We're still in early recovery

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and I think the more people we talk to,

[00:56:15] [SPEAKER_01]: the more we learn

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and the more we broaden our perspective

[00:56:20] [SPEAKER_01]: because this is the point of the almost chronicling

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_01]: of our journey is that in some ways,

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure we're going to be going back to certain episodes

[00:56:29] [SPEAKER_01]: after a certain guess and going,

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_01]: oh my God, what they just told me.

[00:56:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I got to go back to this episode

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and hear what I said

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_01]: because I think I'm really fucking stupid here.

[00:56:38] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I don't know shit from fuck, right?

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll tell you what, there's some key issues.

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Harm reduction and it's different

[00:56:47] [SPEAKER_03]: because harm reduction is a massive word.

[00:56:49] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's a lot bigger than people think that.

[00:56:51] [SPEAKER_03]: You should break it down, yeah.

[00:56:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Generally speaking, but a lot of people, yeah, right?

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_03]: But when you say like certain facets of harm reduction

[00:56:57] [SPEAKER_03]: or aspects of harm reduction,

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_03]: mandate of treatment is,

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_03]: those are probably the two biggest ones for me

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_03]: where my opinion has gone back and forth

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_03]: a dozen times.

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_03]: But the latest guess that was on

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_03]: has made such a great case for this.

[00:57:19] [SPEAKER_03]: So I'll think about that.

[00:57:21] [SPEAKER_03]: And then, you know, it's taken me now

[00:57:23] [SPEAKER_03]: till about the last year to really,

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_03]: sorry, the last maybe three months

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_03]: to get to a point where I'm willing

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_03]: to take a stand on a few issues

[00:57:32] [SPEAKER_03]: because I was just so,

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_03]: I flakey is not the right word.

[00:57:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Malleable.

[00:57:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:57:39] [SPEAKER_03]: On some of those things, right?

[00:57:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Our mandate of treatment being one of them,

[00:57:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm an absolute fan in some cases.

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's something that we should be doing.

[00:57:49] [SPEAKER_03]: I think when you have somebody in a serious addiction,

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_03]: they have lost capacity to make good choices for themselves.

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Prefrontal cortex is not working.

[00:57:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Why the hell are we letting them make decisions for themselves?

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_03]: You know what I mean?

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_03]: When they're one use away from dying.

[00:58:03] [SPEAKER_03]: And I just at some point,

[00:58:05] [SPEAKER_03]: like compassion and interventions a thing

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_03]: and I think we should be doing it more often,

[00:58:08] [SPEAKER_03]: more certainly than we do now.

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_03]: And then kids safe supply off like we should do a whole episode

[00:58:13] [SPEAKER_03]: about that.

[00:58:14] [SPEAKER_03]: We want to open up.

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_00]: But this is about what you said about mandated treatment.

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's also something that is very unique in Canada,

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_00]: at least in America,

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_00]: even our carceral system is a rehab system.

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Forced of course, but you know,

[00:58:31] [SPEAKER_00]: like the intent is to get people better by force

[00:58:35] [SPEAKER_00]: or by coercion.

[00:58:38] [SPEAKER_03]: The problem with that though is,

[00:58:42] [SPEAKER_03]: is that when we refer to incarceration as mandated treatment,

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_03]: we're not doing the real idea of mandatory treatment,

[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_03]: not incarceration.

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not saying it's equivalent,

[00:58:52] [SPEAKER_00]: but like this is usually what the system trying to do

[00:58:56] [SPEAKER_00]: is to get people better.

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Just saying.

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I can't tell you how many of my guests,

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_03]: most of the women actually as compared to men,

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_03]: but how many women went to jail and that was what did it for them.

[00:59:07] [SPEAKER_03]: So it is certainly an aspect of mandated treatment,

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_03]: right?

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Without a doubt.

[00:59:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Chantel is a great example of that.

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_03]: She was in jail and that's finally what did it for her.

[00:59:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And then Keegan, the rapper as well as similar story.

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, Matt Keegan.

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Have you had him on?

[00:59:23] [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, but we want to book him.

[00:59:25] [SPEAKER_03]: No, no, I've, he's great.

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_03]: He's great.

[00:59:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, he's just a great episode.

[00:59:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I've had him on him and Benjamin Lerner

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_03]: is also very gracious and willing to come on as well.

[00:59:34] [SPEAKER_03]: If you get the opportunity to have him.

[00:59:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So what did it, what did it?

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway guys, we're one of the themes we did hit on.

[00:59:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll just quickly.

[00:59:42] [SPEAKER_01]: One of the themes we did hit on that we came.

[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's almost like a revelation that came to us as we've both

[00:59:48] [SPEAKER_01]: agreed me and Eves how come critical thinking how see how

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_01]: come CBT is not taught in schools at a very young age.

[00:59:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So people make better decisions.

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Know their how to manage their emotions early in life.

[01:00:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Why is it not, it's not taught at any point in the school system.

[01:00:04] [SPEAKER_01]: But why isn't it?

[01:00:06] [SPEAKER_01]: It just like, and it just seems like a no brainer.

[01:00:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, like he said, we're too busy learning the history of the

[01:00:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Russian Empire and the fucking, you know what I mean?

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, yeah, like we have potentially different opinions on

[01:00:19] [SPEAKER_00]: on stimulant medication for kids.

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I do believe there's a purpose for certain people,

[01:00:23] [SPEAKER_00]: but like that's the go to solution without even a real

[01:00:29] [SPEAKER_00]: diagnosis of ADHD.

[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, actually most kids would benefit from being able to

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_00]: manage their emotions, you know, like the basic stuff that we

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_00]: learn in CBT at I believe is an opportunity missed for

[01:00:43] [SPEAKER_00]: preventing addicts to be emerging from that system.

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, or just trouble, trouble teens, trouble kids.

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:00:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Listen guys, we are getting to the top of the hour.

[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_03]: So I'd like to get into my favorite part of show and

[01:00:57] [SPEAKER_03]: that's the daily gratitudes.

[01:00:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Today's daily gratitudes are brought to you by Yatra

[01:01:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Center here in Krabi, Thailand where I reside for any of

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_03]: you that are new platforms where my healing journey in

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Thailand started.

[01:01:07] [SPEAKER_03]: I was fortunate enough to experience their residential

[01:01:09] [SPEAKER_03]: treatment program completely changed by life.

[01:01:12] [SPEAKER_03]: They treat addiction through the lens of trauma and they

[01:01:14] [SPEAKER_03]: do it very well.

[01:01:15] [SPEAKER_03]: You know what they're fond of saying where addiction is a

[01:01:17] [SPEAKER_03]: smoke, trauma is the fire.

[01:01:18] [SPEAKER_03]: In my case, that certainly turned out to be true.

[01:01:20] [SPEAKER_03]: You can learn more about them and see a bunch of

[01:01:22] [SPEAKER_03]: episodes that they've been on at hwaypodcast.com

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_03]: slash trauma and use daily gratitudes.

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Why don't we start with you, Eric?

[01:01:28] [SPEAKER_03]: What you got for some gratitudes today?

[01:01:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Did you say me?

[01:01:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I did.

[01:01:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's see.

[01:01:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Today, today, let me see.

[01:01:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I always start in the morning by just being,

[01:01:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm grateful to wake up.

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I've often said this to life.

[01:01:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I've led the abuse I've done to my body over a

[01:01:50] [SPEAKER_01]: 35 year period.

[01:01:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm always grateful to just wake up.

[01:01:54] [SPEAKER_01]: But today I know a friend of mine is suffering

[01:01:57] [SPEAKER_01]: because friends of hers, closer, passed away.

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, addiction.

[01:02:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm just grateful that I still have my friend

[01:02:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and she wasn't with that crowd.

[01:02:11] Yeah.

[01:02:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm kidding you.

[01:02:13] [SPEAKER_03]: What about yourself?

[01:02:15] [SPEAKER_03]: What are you grateful for?

[01:02:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I think, first of all, I want to say

[01:02:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I cultivate gratefulness every day is the

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_00]: first thing I tell myself when I wake up

[01:02:24] [SPEAKER_00]: in the morning is that I make a contract

[01:02:28] [SPEAKER_00]: with the citizen not to use in that this is

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_00]: making me happy and happy as a broad word.

[01:02:33] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not pure joy, but this is what keeps me

[01:02:37] [SPEAKER_00]: content in life.

[01:02:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is what opens my art to actually

[01:02:44] [SPEAKER_00]: acknowledge that I have things to be grateful for.

[01:02:47] [SPEAKER_00]: But just for today, I'm extremely grateful

[01:02:50] [SPEAKER_00]: that you hosted us on your podcast

[01:02:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and the opportunity that just represent.

[01:02:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And just the fact that we get to speak recovery

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and we're not unfortunately like other people

[01:03:03] [SPEAKER_00]: we know still in active addiction is a privilege

[01:03:07] [SPEAKER_00]: that I will cherish forever.

[01:03:10] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's enough to be grateful for just for today.

[01:03:14] [SPEAKER_03]: It is so, it is so myself.

[01:03:17] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm grateful for an opportunity.

[01:03:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, this episode has been a long time coming.

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_03]: So that gratitude goes both ways.

[01:03:21] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm happy to finally get you guys on a couple

[01:03:24] [SPEAKER_03]: fellow Canadians, which doesn't happen as often.

[01:03:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, more so often I guess these days for a while

[01:03:28] [SPEAKER_03]: that was almost all entirely American.

[01:03:29] [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm very happy to have you both on.

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Appreciate that.

[01:03:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm also very grateful to every single person who continues

[01:03:36] [SPEAKER_03]: to like comment share do all the things smash the buttons

[01:03:39] [SPEAKER_03]: down at the bottom.

[01:03:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Every time you do any of these things,

[01:03:42] [SPEAKER_03]: you're getting me a little bit closer to living my best life.

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_03]: My best life is to make humble living

[01:03:46] [SPEAKER_03]: spreading the message.

[01:03:47] [SPEAKER_03]: The message is this.

[01:03:48] [SPEAKER_03]: You're an active addiction right now.

[01:03:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Today could be the day today could be the day

[01:03:51] [SPEAKER_03]: that you start a lifelong journey.

[01:03:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member,

[01:03:55] [SPEAKER_03]: call into church, go to a meeting, pray.

[01:03:57] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't care.

[01:03:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Do whatever it is you got to do to get that journey started

[01:04:00] [SPEAKER_03]: because it is so much better than the alternative.

[01:04:02] [SPEAKER_03]: And if you have a loved one who's suffering

[01:04:04] [SPEAKER_03]: an addiction right now,

[01:04:05] [SPEAKER_03]: we should take the time to listen to this conversation.

[01:04:07] [SPEAKER_03]: If you could just take one more minute out of your day

[01:04:08] [SPEAKER_03]: and text that person, let them know they're loved.

[01:04:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Use the words.

[01:04:12] [SPEAKER_01]: You are loved.

[01:04:15] [SPEAKER_03]: That little glimmer of hope just might be the thing

[01:04:17] [SPEAKER_03]: that brings them back.

[01:04:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, John.

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Where's my nose?

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_03]: There it is.

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Good job.