269 -DONNY SERINK w/AARC

Chuck (00:01.867)

Hello everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds. Welcome to another episode of The Weekend Ramble on the Ashes to Awesome podcast. I am your host, Chuck LaFlange or Chris Horder whatever you want to call me. And halfway around the world in virtual studio, I have my lovely co -host back from a hiatus of sorts. Really glad to have you back, Lisa. How you doing?

Lisa (00:21.524)

I'm good. I'm good. It's good to be back. It's, it was, you know, I had a few weeks, did some camping trips, did a road trip with my mom and my daughter out to Nanaimo. Yeah, so it was, you know, it was nice. It was good, but I'm happy to be back. I missed you.

Chuck (00:33.831)

wow, wow.

Chuck (00:38.005)

That's awesome. I have missed you very much, actually. I was thinking that, I like, I'm really excited to see you. So there you go, right? I also have a returning guest from AARC. That is the Alberta Adolescent Recovery Center, Ciara Brady. How you doing, Ciara

Lisa (00:43.008)

Yeah. Yeah.

Ciara Brady (00:55.363)

Great, thanks Chris, it's good to be here.

Chuck (00:57.553)

It's always good to have you back. And of course, the clinical director at AARC Donny, how you doing today, Donny? I'm sorry I didn't catch your last name and it's not up on the screen, so.

Donny (01:07.885)

Yeah, no, it's Donny Serink clinical director at AHRQ and registered social worker. And yeah, thanks for having me here today. I'm really excited to talk with all of you and you're carrying the message about a really important issue. So a lot of people need help regarding this, yeah.

Chuck (01:10.731)

Don is right.

Chuck (01:26.955)

Absolutely, we're excited to have you on. I mean, we partnered up with AARC now going on three months, I guess, I think that sounds right. And right off the bat, there were some questions, Donny, about involuntary treatment specifically. And we've talked a little bit about that, but I think it's something that you can definitely speak to. And I'd really like to talk about that. Before we get to that though, I know you have a bit of a, well, you're in recovery, you said yourself.

Could you kind of give us the Cliff Notes version of why you're passionate about recovery now and kind of what got you to that point?

Donny (02:02.416)

yeah, no, as I had mentioned to you, prior to that, I'm in recovery and have been in recovery for 26 years now. I actually, found recovery at the age of 21. So quite early in my life, I come from a long line of alcoholics. You don't have to shake the family tree too much to find that on both sides of the family. it's, sounds bad, but half of my background is Ukrainian and the other half is Irish and

Chuck (02:24.728)

you

Donny (02:32.465)

The cultural piece of, yeah, exactly, right? Family dinners on Sundays where, you know, granny, grandpa was drunk. You know, my dad was an alcoholic as well. So just grew up in that environment, was completely normal to me. And then as I progressed, you know, into my addiction around 13, 14, started experimenting with alcohol and then got into drugs as well. And by the time I was 21, suicidal.

Chuck (02:32.78)

I'm just kidding.

Ciara Brady (02:35.888)

Hmm.

Donny (03:02.161)

you know, kind of at the end of my, rope, so to speak. And, yeah, ended up finding recovery. And I went through the AARC program actually 26 years ago. So along with my sister and along with my family, and I'm happy to report that, my dad is in recovery. my sister's in recovery and I am in recovery. So we stopped that.

Chuck (03:14.463)

No kidding.

Donny (03:26.757)

hot potatoes, so to speak, or that breaking the cycle of addiction because it is, there is a genetic predisposition to it as well as all the cultural kind of social factors, but we were able to break that. And now I have five nieces and one nephew and we have our Sunday dinners and it's just beautiful. Like grandpa is sober, uncle Donny is there and I'm the cool uncle, know, feed them lots of sugar and stuff and send them back to my sisters.

Chuck (03:37.536)

kidding.

Ciara Brady (03:49.53)

and

Hahaha!

Chuck (03:52.901)

hahahaha

Lisa (03:53.312)

Hahaha.

Donny (03:54.572)

And my sister is sober too, so it's really remarkable. Like to give you the cold's note, it's like you just have no idea really what we've gone through and what we've been through as a family, but that's what really drove my passion. And then as I was sharing with Lisa as well, that I came back to university quite later in life just because I left school and did horribly probably because of amount of drugs and alcohol that I was using.

but found my way back into social work, which was a passion of mine and working with youth specifically and ended up coming to RF nine years ago, originally in a volunteer position, just trying to get some experience to go back to school. And one thing led to another. And now I'm the clinical director there and doing the individual therapy, group therapy. But I think what really drew me to it was my personal experience.

and then seeing my family go through that and then having a way out. And I wanted to be able to do that. Like I wanted to be able to share my story and carry my message of hope and show people that there was a way out of it and hopefully make a career out of it too. so, yeah, but very, very passionate. It's a very personal subject to me and yeah, it's my meaning, my purpose, yeah.

Chuck (05:08.159)

Well, you've done that right.

Chuck (05:12.913)

I have to acknowledge, go ahead, Lisa, go ahead.

Lisa (05:13.548)

And I think, I was going to say, I think so many people that work in this field, right, have been impacted personally in some way, whether it's, know, that they themselves are in recovery or they've had a loved one in recovery. And for me, I think part of it is it's, and I think about this as a preceptor to like medical students or to residents is how do you impart to somebody that doesn't have that lived experience?

what it is you have gained through personal experience. And I don't think I have really got my finger on the answer to that. But yeah, I think it's pretty common, right? That there's just this compassion that comes from having been through it or connected to it in some way that I think is such a driver to want to try to help other people.

Chuck (06:05.087)

I would think for the amount of combined education between the two of you sitting here now, right? There is a thousand jobs, careers that would be much easier, probably more financially rewarding. But know, like there's a million things you could do with your time and with your lives. And that lived experience I think is going to be, why the hell else would you?

Right, without some sort, like what would drive, and I know there is some people that get into it, but like, I can't imagine why somebody would choose this profession or this field, right?

Lisa (06:34.272)

Hmm.

Lisa (06:41.152)

I say like it.

Lisa (06:45.068)

But it's so rewarding, Chris. Like, it's so rewarding. know, like, my past life, right, I worked as a reservoir engineer in oil and gas. And, I mean, I was more interested in hearing about my geologist marital problems than I was in doing, in modeling reservoirs. You know, I'm half joking. Like, I mean, you know, there's lots of jobs out there that are exciting, but when you're literally helping,

Chuck (06:47.465)

Okay.

Lisa (07:13.836)

helping save people's lives. Like, I'm just like, is there a more privileged position you can be in? And it's the patients, but it's even family members. know, like I discharged a patient this, well, I was actually away when he left. So I got to say bye over FaceTime, but he was with me for 14 months in the hospital. Now I feel happy that I helped him, but you know, the most rewarding thing in that case was the feedback from the mom and dad.

And it's just, you realize, like, when you're helping a person, you are, you're helping their whole family. And it's just like, I don't know, to me, like, the, the reward of seeing those benefits and seeing what you can do to help people, you know, I mean, we all need a certain amount of money to be comfortable and to live our lives, but, that's huge. And that's something I think you get in this work that you don't find in a lot of other jobs.

Donny (08:11.847)

Mm -hmm.

Chuck (08:11.881)

No kidding, right? And just to circle back for yourself, Donny, and you and your sister coming through all those years ago, and this is one of the reasons that I wanted so badly to partner up with Ark, and because just trying to think of the right words. Breaking that cycle for two teenagers, right? And I don't know your sister's story, but whatever. The fact that you're both sober now.

and that you were able to break, and not even teenager, sorry, for two young adults or two young people, how, like, it's not quantifiable, the amount of pain and things that have been avoided because of that, right? Because AARC, and I'll give the credit to AARC, right? That, you know, was a way out for you guys all those years ago. And who knows what could have happened, what would have happened had you been left to your own devices.

Donny (08:46.335)

Mm -hmm.

Chuck (09:10.867)

let run amok and let your lives go go where they go. mean, who knows, right? So, yeah.

Donny (09:17.533)

Yeah, yeah, no, that's a really good point that you bring that up. Like the intervention earlier in life, like the amount of chaos that it prevented and a lot of the pain and the hurt and the damage. I can say without a doubt that I would be dead and my sister would be dead without a doubt. The level of involvement we had with drugs, the drugs they were using, the criminal activity we were engaged in. It's just terrifying. And that's part of the reason why.

Chuck (09:25.989)

Donny (09:45.544)

I work with youth and we're essentially catching them downstream and helping them and support them. And like I mentioned, there's a, you know, the health issues. I did a practicum for eight months in the emergency department of a hospital too. And I saw firsthand an emergency, like the amount of overdose deaths, the car accidents, you know, the wounds that had happened, like fighting, someone would get injured, stabbed, whatever, all related to drugs and alcohol.

Chuck (09:50.079)

Yes.

Donny (10:14.836)

And you have to think about that impact, suicide, the impact that it has on the system, the criminal justice system, and the family piece too, and the fallout that comes along with that is just heartbreaking. The impact that addiction not only had on me and my sister, but I think of my mom and what she went through trying to hold our family together.

Chuck (10:15.135)

No kidding.

Lisa (10:15.264)

Suicide.

Chuck (10:29.899)

tuning.

Donny (10:38.27)

with my dad drinking, me and my sister, my siblings, the impact that it had on my other two little sisters, my grandparents. it was just, my mom described it as like a bomb going off in our family. And she even her own mental health took a really severe downward spiral as well, just with everything that was going on. The impact, like I said, you can't even, I can't even say that, you know, talk about the difference now that we're in recovery. Yeah.

Chuck (10:58.493)

Understandably, yeah.

Lisa (11:05.094)

Can I ask you a question, Donny? Because you mentioned like sort of generations of alcoholism.

Donny (11:09.353)

Yes.

Lisa (11:11.296)

What are, and I don't even know specifically what my question is, but at least as you've described it, it sounds like it was your generation where it went from alcohol to drugs. Do you think that, you know, cause again, alcoholism is more socially acceptable, right? Like you can go out and get drunk and people might roll their eyes at you, but it's socially acceptable. You don't go out and snort lines of cocaine off the coffee table, you know, at grandma's house, hopefully.

Donny (11:21.184)

Yes.

Donny (11:36.661)

Mm -hmm.

Lisa (11:38.016)

But do you think that the fact that drugs came into things actually ultimately led to the breaking of that cycle because it just got, it took it to another level or?

Donny (11:49.781)

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, when the drugs came into the picture, things just, you know, kind of really got out of hand. Initially, you know, I just started smoking marijuana. And even that my parents, there was some tolerance around that. Like I remember they, they went to Jamaica on vacation, one summer and brought back all these cool Bob Marley shirts for me and some shorts that had weed marijuana leafs on them. Like they were attempting to sort of bond with me and connect with me. So even that, but then

As things progressed and we got into using harder drugs like cocaine, crack cocaine, LSD, mushrooms, the stealing, you know, from my parents started, there was violence in the house a lot. was a lot of physical violence between myself and my dad, my sister, my mom. Like you said, it just escalated to a point where they realized that they had to do something. And then when they found out drugs were involved.

And then, you know, one thing led to another. Unfortunately, we found AARC and we found Dr. Voss and we were able to get into the program. So quite remarkable. But I remember when I first, you know, even entered the AARC program, I didn't even understand what addiction was. I didn't really know what alcoholism was. I didn't know what drug abuse was. I didn't know the criteria that you, you know, we would use as professionals to

identify what is just normal use, what is kind of a phase, what is heavy use versus when you cross that line into addiction. And that's what AHRQ is designed to treat. Dr. Voss's program that he put together with AHRQ is we're dealing with the most severe cases. So there is a line that you cross that brings attention to it for sure.

Lisa (13:30.975)

Mm

Lisa (13:35.34)

And I feel like that like lends itself to a question that I think did come up a little bit the first time that I think it was, Kiara was with us, but is, can you talk a little bit about, because I'm guessing as clinical director, I don't know if you're the one who's doing the intake assessments or if you oversee other people who are, but can you speak about like the intake assessment and what sort of criteria it is you're looking for when you're considering accepting somebody into the AHRQ program?

Donny (14:01.783)

Yes, so I am part of that pre -assessment process, myself and Kelly Cummins, she's the other clinical director there, also a registered social worker. So what it looks like is the pre -assessment process is we'll get a phone call from a concerned parent about their youth and we'll put them through to Brenda Berg, who conducts our initial kind of screening pre -assessment. So she'll schedule a pre -assessment call with that parent.

and start to gather the parental reports and information about, you know, their substance abuse, mental health, you know, history, there's any learning disabilities, like a very extensive, you know, report that she'll gather this information, sometimes takes an hour, two hour interview. Brenda will gather all of that information and also ask them for collateral reports. So that they've seen other professionals prior to making this phone call.

There's been hospital visits. may be, you know, incidents of some outpatient counseling that they've tried. Social workers may have been involved, school. So we're gathering all of this data, all of this information from, you know, everywhere, put that together. then that Brenda will send me that report. And then myself or Kelly will decide if this is a family that would meet the criteria to come into the AHRQ program. And what we're looking for

is again, like I mentioned, when you're looking at a substance use disorder, we're looking at mild, moderate, severe is the breakdown that we use professionally. We're looking for severe cases where there has been many attempts at stopping this behavior. There have been other interventions and that all of those have failed. And the next step now is a more intrusive intervention, which is placing them in the AHRQ program.

It's very much a way I explain it is the time that I spent in the hospital when you go in with some type of medical condition, they'll usually, you know, encourage some lifestyle changes first. There may be, you know, you'll start taking some medication and if the problem persists, eventually they're going to suggest more invasive surgery and get to that point. So that is really what we're doing. So there, are a lot of families that we actually would turn away.

Donny (16:20.962)

and say that the use is not severe enough. It's only been going on for about two months, three months. We also look for, there has to be use for at least at the minimum six months, preferably a year that this has been going on, showing that this is a long established pattern and it's just continuing to get worse and worse and worse. So it's very extensive. It's not, some people think that a parent will just call us and say, you know, my son was smoking weed this weekend at a party.

We want to bring them into our Monday morning. just know it doesn't work that way.

Lisa (16:55.094)

But it's funny because listening to you talk about it, I don't know if I've ever actually thought about the specific thing before, is that I do feel like I see parents in two buckets. I see a group of parents who, like you said, their kid smokes weed one night and they're just like, we need to send them away and lock them up in residential treatment like now. And then I see this other group where I'm sitting there going like.

Donny (17:17.069)

Yeah.

Lisa (17:22.176)

So you know your child is snorting cocaine every day and they're like minimizing it. It's like they don't want to acknowledge that there's this bomb that maybe hasn't blown up in their faces yet, but is about to. I mean, obviously the goal is with time and with education and with support that people get to a healthy place. But before there's been a lot of intervention, I feel like I see kind of these like extremes.

Donny (17:48.143)

Yeah, and that's an excellent point. And that's the where we step into myself and Kelly, who do the initial pre -assessment and have the conversation with the parent after we gather that information from Brenda. There's many times where I'm having a conversation, like you said, with a with a parent that is in complete denial. Their their child is not going to school. They've been violent in the home. There's been multiple suicide attempts. They're using cocaine. They're abusing fentanyl.

Chuck (17:48.181)

Yeah.

Donny (18:18.364)

just heartbreaking, like 14, 15 years old and the parent is still thinking and speaking to me. Well, I'm not sure if they're a fit for the art program or if, you know, what are your thoughts on that, Donny? And I will say, I'm very, very concerned and I'm going to be honest with you, whether they like my honesty or not and tell them like, if you don't do something, something really bad is going to happen, which the reality is we're talking about life or death.

Lisa (18:29.779)

Yes.

Lisa (18:39.649)

Mm

Donny (18:48.335)

sadly in this field. Yes. Yeah.

Lisa (18:48.481)

Mm

Chuck (18:48.649)

these days most certainly, right? Things have changed, right? And I say that all the time, right? With the add of fentanyl onto the scene, things changed overnight almost, right? Now it's people are just one use away.

Lisa (19:00.928)

Mm

Donny (19:04.217)

Yeah, kids are dying every day and sadly I've been to too many funerals and seen too many lives just completely shattered and destroyed because of the overdoses. Just absolutely heartbreaking.

Lisa (19:19.884)

And I think we, you know, we often acknowledge that as family members, and again, I'm not a parent and I think that like takes it up a whole other level, but we've touched a lot on the fact that I think for families, for parents, they often feel stigmatized as well. They often feel sort of alienated. They, you know, they feel like they can't disclose this truth to people because of the judgment that will come with it. I can also say interestingly though, that I've also like seen

another angle on that, even just recently, with somebody that I work with whose son was struggling. And we all knew, and we were trying to provide support and recommendations. And there was resistance against it. And I know there were co -workers who were like, well, we don't want to say anything because the last time we said something like, you know, the person got upset with us or the person sort of shut it down.

And I think it just, again, speaks to somebody who's in a bit of a stage of denial. But just interesting how I think we focus a lot more on the fact that a lot of families don't feel like there's sufficient support, which is absolutely true. But it is, I think there is also that other side of it where there are sometimes people who want to provide support, but if a family is not ready to hear it, that's also difficult. And I'm sure you would see that a lot.

Donny (20:46.523)

Yeah, no, there, a lot of it is what we talk about at arc and with our staff is essentially raising the bottom. So we're, really calling attention to what is actually happening and that this is really, really serious and breaking through that denial. And it is me having those very, you know, straightforward, honest conversations with parents, coming from a place of care though. So.

Lisa (20:55.894)

Yes.

Donny (21:14.128)

when I am confronting parents or confronting that denial, it's saying, look, it's because I care about you so much. I'm really worried about your family. I'm terrified your son or daughter is going to die if we don't get help for them and you need to listen. And Kira would be an excellent person to ask about this, but there is something that I as a professional am willing to have that conversation that I think other professionals somewhat shy away from sometimes.

Lisa (21:15.38)

Mm -hmm. Totally.

Donny (21:43.825)

just not wanting to confront people. Now that I'm even in the private practice, I recognize I only see clients like, you know, one hour a week. If I'm going to be confronting them, they just, might not come back. They'll say, I don't like what Donny said. I'm not providing an easier software, but I've also found the other side of that is that parents will actually really appreciate the honesty.

Lisa (21:44.502)

Mm -hmm.

Donny (22:07.366)

and say, you're the first person that's actually really looked me in the eye and told me that if we don't do something, something really bad is going to happen. their families are desperate for help because even in my time at the hospital, and I love all the staff I worked with, an emergency is really just, you you're dealing with a crisis and then get them out and get them to additional supports. But a lot of the families would come in, there'd be a lot of addiction issues with youth and the family members. And they were just

Lisa (22:17.354)

Mm -hmm.

Donny (22:36.593)

terrified of being discharged like so quickly. They would come in, they're frantic, we need more help. I would say, I'm sorry, in my role here as a social worker in hospital, I'm just going to provide you these resources and you're going to have to find alternatives after this. And they did not want to be discharged and I could not blame them. They knew that they were going to go home and the whole cycle would repeat itself. And some of them would be back the very next day where there was another suicide attempt, there was another overdose and it was just this revolving door. So

Lisa (22:50.604)

Mm

Lisa (23:01.162)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Donny (23:06.671)

Why I choose to work at Arc is, yeah, because we deal with that. Yeah.

Chuck (23:07.029)

Well, I know that, sorry, sorry to interrupt. know just, just from my own very limited personal experience when I was still in Calgary before I, before I left the country, being in the emergency room where Lisa was working with, with a friend of my own, very like, wow. To try and get somebody in to psychiatric care for treatment is wow. What a process that is.

Lisa (23:33.227)

Mm

Chuck (23:34.715)

And that is a fault of the system, right? And that's a top level problem, I think, right? Most certainly. And it's one of the things I appreciate so much about Lisa is that piss on you attitude, get to offer management, I guess, or whoever, the bureaucrats, right?

Lisa (23:38.628)

boy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean.

Lisa (23:50.9)

Yeah, I know, I know. Yeah, and I think, you know, for me, one of the things that really highlights how systemic like how the problem is a systemic problem is that, you know, I obviously have colleagues who work in the community at, you know, like, opioid dependency programs or at Renfrew, like detox centers. And I'll have like, psychiatrists in these community settings call me.

and say like, when are you in a merge? I have a patient here who really needs some help. We've tried outpatient, we're not getting anywhere. It's often a patient who is saying to the doctor, like, can you please certify me so that when I start craving, I can't walk out the door. And we will actually do something where we'll time it so that that psychiatrist in the community will certify them.

the first certificate that's only valid for 24 hours, we'll send them into the emerge with a plan when I'm there. So that I can see them and put a second certificate on them. Because again, like without us, even within the system, you you've got that first person, even him who works in the system who wants to do this without coordinating directly with another individual, often through systemic cracks, that person ends up out the door.

Chuck (25:18.185)

I think, Ciaran, you can speak to that, I'm very much your experience, right? Yeah, please do, yeah, if you can bring that back to your experiences. Yeah, yeah.

Ciara Brady (25:22.048)

Yeah, yeah, there's so much I can say on this. Yeah, and just.

Yeah, and there's a lot that's been mentioned that I can comment on because denial is definitely a part of that journey. And I think there's a lot of other pieces, right? The education piece that we referred to earlier, and like Donny said, when you enter the AARC program, there is an understanding of addiction.

I understand this completely differently. I can relate to what Donny was saying so much earlier. I took the behaviors and the whole journey, I guess I took personally because of that lack of understanding. I took it like as, you know, a parenting failure, all of those pieces. So when Donny refers to like treating the whole family,

that's what's needed because learning to support in a different way has to involve a certain amount of education for everybody within the family unit. But with regard to, again, something else that was mentioned earlier and Donny referred to his position with social work within the hospital, we've had quite a lengthy journey through the mental health system. And for sure, I agree that there's a gap when it reaches

you know, severe addiction. I totally agree with that. But also, like the I always felt like any social workers that were involved with us within the system really, really wanted to help more than they could. And I felt like there was a huge level of support from so many people when we were along that journey. providing next steps was

Ciara Brady (27:24.684)

There were so many limitations around that. And, you know, that's part of, like, I'm also very passionate about what I do because knowing that there's a program like AARC that has such a successful, such a high success rate for these kids. And just that the, like the feeling that it's so hard to find is just wrong. I mean, there is a solution here for these kids, but yet those conversations are so difficult.

and the addiction, like the misunderstanding of the addiction as a disease, I think it doesn't help. There's so many pieces along that journey. Add that into the parental denial, the fact that we can't have conversations to find next steps. All of those pieces are, it makes for a very, very high risk journey.

Lisa (28:01.683)

Mm

Lisa (28:17.6)

Hmm.

Ciara Brady (28:18.09)

And then to connect with the place like AARC and have a conversation with, like Donny said, with Brenda, who's also a mom who has come through treatment. And to connect with Brenda and then, you know, if you're a good fit for the program, then proceed to a call with either Donny or Kelly, who like the competency in AARC's clinical team is just unbelievable. I don't have the words for the relief that I felt when I connected with the AARC team.

I felt like, you know, it wasn't just our son who had a voice at that point. It was all of us. And the decision on treatment was based on the entire journey from the family. So everybody had a voice. And we were like, it really is hard to find the words. was like, this is different. There's something different happening here. They get exactly what we're saying.

They want to hear everybody's version of events before making the decision on, let's do this. And it was a very, it was a collective decision by everybody. A big decision. Like it's a very, very big decision to make, but you guys know where we came from, how we made that decision. So our alternative was staring us in the face. I know that not everybody is in the situation that we were in, but

Lisa (29:34.55)

Mm

Ciara Brady (29:41.046)

still they're in situations that if you're deemed a fit for the art program there's no question.

Lisa (29:47.72)

And Donny, don't know if you've ever, if Kara shared this with you before, but you know, there was a family that I had referred to reach out to AHRQ. And it was such an interesting comment, but I think it's helpful to know, and you probably already do, that this is something people think, because when it was said to me, it shocked me. And again, this is somebody obviously who,

was very much at that severe stage, had tried many, many, many, many other things that were not working. And then after, it was literally while we were recording the first episode with Ark that I was texting and I was like, my gosh, like you need to call these people. And so there had been, know, when I followed up with this individual, maybe it was a few weeks later and just said like, hey, where are things at? What's happening?

Donny (30:35.448)

Yeah.

Lisa (30:45.066)

I got this text message back that said, you know, well, you know, we're still having conversations. You know, we're not totally sure yet. Like, it's a really big family commitment.

I mean, you may as well have just hit me over the head with a frying pan. Like, I was just like, what? Like, it totally took me back. And I don't know why. But I remember, you know, it then led into a conversation of, because there were so many similarities in this story to, you know, my family's story 25 years ago.

And so it led into a lengthy conversation of, you want to tell me about the alternative family commitment that you're signing in for? Because it's a family commitment, no matter which track you go down at this point. It's just, do you want to do the family commitment that might save this person's life? Or do you want to do the family commitment that might land you at a funeral?

But it really took me back. Like when I had learned about the program and of course I knew about this story and I know this individual, in my mind it was just like you go and you like camp out on the front door of AARC and beg and plead them to take you in. To hear that there was this question of, and again I think it's while this person had been struggling for a few years, it hasn't been 20 years. You know, this is an adolescent that I'm talking about.

And I think it just speaks to the level of maybe denial that some people will be at. And I think part of it too, right, is that when you're living with this individual and you see this change in them gradually, you kind of like your threshold changes and you kind of shift that bar, right? Because again, for me objectively hearing the story about this kid who, you I think I've met once briefly to say hello, it was like, it was so clear to me that that child needed to be in your program.

Lisa (32:52.572)

And so to see that that family, whether it's through denial, whether it's through because they live it daily, they don't necessarily see how bad it is and where they're at, it really kind of surprised me that people could be in that headspace.

Chuck (33:09.579)

To speak to that, Lee Sin, I very clearly remember you saying this. I think I made a reel about that, actually, of you talking about that. Even myself, with a pretty good understanding of what addiction is, right? Losing way too many people, way too many people. 15 memorial episodes that we've done with the mothers that have lost their kids. With all of that.

Lisa (33:15.99)

Yeah.

Chuck (33:37.469)

until you explained it the way you did, I never would have thought of it that way. Not in a million years, hey, you got this commitment to you, you got this commitment, so don't tell me how big of a commitment it is. I never would have thought about that. So I can kind of understand, because if I wouldn't have thought of it that way, how could anybody else when I lived this?

Lisa (33:43.052)

Hmm.

Lisa (33:50.602)

Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (33:58.54)

Mm -hmm. And maybe again, because I do sit, you know, on the family side of it, right? Like I don't have personal lived experience as somebody who has suffered an addiction, but I have been a family member for 25 years and I have seen the extent of how this disease penetrates families and causes chaos and hurt and destruction. And, you know, and so to me, it's like when you have a loved one in addiction,

you are signed up for commitment. Whether you cut that person out of your life, there's a commitment to that. That hurts every day if you're somebody who's chosen to put that wall up. Whether you are sitting side by side with them day in and day out pleading for them to get help, that's commitment. Whether they're in and out of your life because they keep you at arm's length and they continue to live in addiction, that's commitment.

It's like, there's no way of being void of a commitment in this disease if you have a loved one who suffers from it. And it's just a matter of how aggressively are you going to try to steer that wheel, especially when you're allowed to? Because sadly, our system says that if you're 30 years old and you have this, it's very difficult for us to force somebody into involuntary treatment. If you have an adolescent that is dealing with this, grab the damn wheel.

You know, like, yeah.

Ciara Brady (35:27.557)

Yeah, I remember very early on in treatment, as well as the kids being encouraged to have a sponsor. Likewise, the parents are encouraged to have an Al -Aman sponsor in a way to support you with supporting your kids in a different way. And I remember very vividly my very first meeting with my own sponsor, who was also a mum of somebody who went through the AARC program. I remember her saying to me, like, you have given your

Chuck (35:27.883)

Yeah, 100%.

Ciara Brady (35:57.136)

child a gift. And I just, could not comprehend that because I was just like, what, like this crazy commitment and like, what are we stepping into? We didn't have an understanding. But now, like I get it. Like I think to, to go through the process and decide to step into treatment at AARC, like I said, it's a big decision, but you're ultimately, you are providing them with the best possible chance to.

lead a successful life and as a parent you, you know, if you're given that opportunity I, you know, you jump up the chance. So yeah, it is a huge commitment but like we've said so is the alternative.

Chuck (36:37.909)

So.

Chuck (36:45.045)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Donny (36:45.608)

Yeah, and that point is just so key, Lisa, like what you're saying there is the discussions that I have and the pre -assessment, the group therapy sessions that we have with parents on Tuesdays, the individual sessions, we're constantly making that same argument and we'll have parents that will say, maybe there's an easier, softer way, maybe there's a way we can work, maybe we don't have to go to this. And I will say,

And I'm the historian because I do the pre -assessment. So we're talking like six months into the program, the parents will forget in many ways where they came from, start to think the AARC program is too difficult. Do we even need to complete the program? And I will remind them of when they called me during the pre -assessment and how frantic, desperate they were. This was life and death. I'll remind them of the overdoses, the hospital stays, the violence, the suicide. And I'll see the parents just, they just suddenly get it again.

But the denial is so entrenched that it takes that confrontation piece. And I realize when I'm doing that, again, it's not coming from a place of, know, there's some frustration there, but a place of love that if I don't do this, if I don't confront these parents, if I don't confront this child, they could die or live just terrible, horrible life. So it gives me that motivation. And we need more professionals like you that

are willing to have these difficult conversations with people struggling with addiction and really letting them know the outcomes. it just, it's heartbreaking. But again, because I'm somewhat out of the arc bubble a little bit, cause I'm doing my private practice work now, my practicum for my masters. I'm working with families and individuals that are 30, that are struggling with addiction. And I'll tell them about arc. They will, you know, break down crying and saying, I wish

I would have known about this place when I was 15, 16, 17, like our parents who have lost a child that can't intervene because their daughter is 30 years old and they're watching their daughter die slowly in front of their eyes because of the addiction. And they will say, they're so guilty and they feel so bad that they didn't do something earlier. And I'll have to work with them around that pain and I'll say, look,

Lisa (38:45.259)

Hmm.

Lisa (38:52.822)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Lisa (39:02.401)

Mm

Donny (39:05.946)

your message is not to go in the past and blame yourself, but if you know people now that you can help and get them, get the intervention done early, please do that. And they see that, but they are, it's so sad that they didn't have anyone and didn't come across me or a place like our, at that time in their lives. And again, I'm so grateful. Why am I still alive? Why is my sister alive? Higher power or whatever happened, but yeah, yeah.

Lisa (39:27.105)

Mm

Chuck (39:35.12)

Can I ask Donny, how did you come into the art world? Can I ask that? Like how did your parents find it?

Lisa (39:35.19)

Mm

Donny (39:42.187)

Yeah, I'm an open book. it's, you know, there's an anonymous component to the 12 step program, but I'm comfortable talking about this. But you know, my family, know, my dad's journey into recovery obviously led him into recovery where he met other people in recovery. And it was in that circle of other recovering alcoholics that someone mentioned to him.

Chuck (39:45.705)

Okay, yeah.

Chuck (39:52.085)

You're on a podcast.

Chuck (40:06.922)

Okay.

Donny (40:11.402)

my dad started talking about the problems he was having with me and my sister. And they said, well, there's this place called R and a guy named Dean who actually happens to be Dr. Voss that you should talk to. He phoned him, explained the situation. Dr. Voss said, bring them in for a pre -assessment. We'll take it from there. And that just, again, it was through word of mouth and just talking to the right people. This was 26 years ago.

Chuck (40:16.021)

Okay.

Chuck (40:24.298)

Yeah.

Chuck (40:35.081)

Okay.

Donny (40:39.826)

My hope is that it doesn't have to be through this word of mouth recovery circle, anonymous connections that we can get the information out about AARC to the public, to people that are not getting this information within the system. we can, you someone will watch this and someone, even if it's affecting them or they know someone and say, just call us, that's all it is. You may be a fit, you may not, but we can point you in the right direction.

Chuck (40:46.264)

That's what we're doing here now, right? So yeah, absolutely, yeah.

Donny (41:09.872)

and support you. Yeah, just so critical. Yeah.

Chuck (41:14.155)

That's awesome. I'm so glad that that happened. I mean, for a million different reasons. Can we circle back now to the involuntary component? Jeez, we're already 40 minutes into the episode. We haven't even really talked about that. So can you kind of just explain that process to us? The ins and outs of it as best you can. Well, obviously you can very well, but could you kind of give us a rundown on the involuntary component?

Lisa (41:18.763)

Mm

Donny (41:40.107)

yeah. So to understand that you have to understand, you know, age of majority. in Alberta, it's, 18, once you're 18, you're able to be an adult, even though your brain isn't fully developed till around the age of 25. Don't even get me started on that issue, but yeah, but yeah, 18, you're considered adult and it's the child youth family enhancement act. and what, what the ethical considerations are is that,

Chuck (41:56.619)

47, like I'm just, barely getting there, right? So yeah, yeah, yeah.

Donny (42:09.707)

If you're a minor and we're looking at capacity, intelligence, being able to understand, know, your condition, the nature, the consequences of receiving treatment or not receiving treatment, the debate, the issue becomes is where does a 14, 15, 16 year old fall within that in their ability to make those decisions to get themselves help? And if they're refusing help, despite these consequences, despite the possibility of death, despite...

the damage they're doing to their physical health, their mental health. Are parents then able, their rights, parental rights, able to supersede the child's right? And are they able to make that decision and place them in the AHRQ program? So the parents ultimately say, my daughter's 14, she doesn't have the capacity to make the decision on her own. I'm going to make that for her and place her in the AHRQ program.

Chuck (43:04.875)

Okay, so mum wants to do this. How does somebody do, like, what is the legal process without getting into the legalities? that's a sensible way to ask that question, is that? What actions do they take? How does it work? How does it get there, right?

Donny (43:19.058)

well the legality is behind it.

Lisa (43:25.226)

Like logistically, how is it implemented? Is that what you're trying to get at, Chris?

Donny (43:25.313)

The parent.

Chuck (43:28.267)

Thank you. Thank you, Lisa, with your $20 words. No, I'm just kidding.

Ciara Brady (43:31.296)

No.

Donny (43:31.744)

Yeah.

Donny (43:36.02)

Yeah, I can only speak obviously to the Arc program, but the parents would bring their child to the Arc program and state that they're wanting to sign them into the Arc program. And they're making that decision as parents and their legal guardians. And yeah.

Chuck (43:39.913)

Yes, of course.

Chuck (43:48.426)

Okay.

Lisa (43:53.164)

And are a lot of parents tricking the kids into coming to Ark? Do they walk in the front door thinking they were going for chicken dinner and realize it's not chicken dinner? Yeah.

Chuck (44:00.953)

Or to the dispensary as in Spencer's case

Donny (44:03.404)

I, as I said, I can't, it's funny because I can't comment on how they get to the AARC program. I'll have that conversation with them at the pre -assessment and they'll say, what do I do? I don't even know if I can get my son or daughter there. And I'll say, look, all I can say is you get them here, we'll conduct the intake and get them here safely and we'll take it from there. So each parent, you know, employs different strategies, has different ways of.

Lisa (44:12.854)

Yeah.

Donny (44:32.638)

of getting them to AHRQ. I'm not aware of that and I always comment that I can't specifically guide them in that direction but I can put you in touch with with Kira or other parents and that's the amazing part of the AHRQ program too is our alumni, our members for life. Once you're in the AHRQ family, you're in the AHRQ family five, ten, twenty years ago, thirty years ago, you can come back to the program and we still have

active volunteers and alumni and parents that will say to me, Donny, if you're working with a family and they're struggling about this decision and wondering how do they get their child to AHRQ, what does that look like? Have them call me? So it's not just me, you know, giving my advice and my professional opinion, but other parents that have also gone through it. And that is the basis of the entire AHRQ program and the 12 step model that we use.

Lisa (45:16.3)

Mm

Donny (45:24.023)

you know, other alcoholics helping other alcoholics, it's other family members helping other family members, and that's the Al -Anon program. So I use that quite effectively. And I even think, you know, when I'm working with a mom or a dad, I'll think of another mom and dad that have gone through the program previously and kind of, I think they'd be a good match. They both think the same way, their situation is somewhat similar, and they'll...

Lisa (45:44.833)

Mm.

Donny (45:49.505)

talk to each other and then once they come to AARC, the youth comes into the building and we begin the intake.

Lisa (45:56.812)

And another question, let's say that there's a child in the program and they run.

What kind of, know, do you guys, is it left to the families to report them as missing after X number of hours? Do you guys ever contact police? What kind of support do you get?

Donny (46:20.941)

Yeah, excellent question. we do a lot of our clients are very high risk, suicidal ideations, previous attempts, very dysregulated. There's the high risk of an overdose. So when they run from the program, it is an emergency. It's a really serious issue. It does happen. Doesn't happen a lot. We have really strong policies and procedures at AHRQ. Our staff are amazing.

But when it does happen, that phone call does go to the police, especially if they're a higher risk and the police will respond immediately. We've had incredible support. I do want to say that, you know, CPS and the police sometimes get a bad rep and different things, but the officers we've worked with have been just incredible in supporting us and, you know, finding that youth. They'll contact the parent, obviously to confirm that the parent again.

is making that decision on their behalf and wanting them in the AHRQ program and bring them back to the AHRQ program. If a youth runs and they're not necessarily high risk, I all of our kids are high risk, but we'll also contact the parents and the parents are urged to file a missing persons report and, you know, try to track down the youth as soon as possible. Because again, they're running from AHRQ, they're wanting to go get high. There's a risk they could run.

suicide, could be an overdose, there could be violence, there's been, you know, robbery, stabbings, we've had murders that have taken place, there's gang involvement, prostitution. So when you consider all those factors, and the most important thing too that I've found helpful is the police now have a new, you know, procedure around that. you speak to an officer and there's a mental health concern, especially with our youth that have run, the police are now able to contact a psych nurse.

that they're able to communicate with and talk to the nurse about what are the best options and how do we best support this youth. And sometimes it would be returning them back to the AHRQ program, but in certain cases they will be transferred and like you said, to the hospital, to the emergency department and they might be certified, they might be kept, or they might be discharged back into our care. And we actually have a really good working relationship now too with some of the youth units at

Donny (48:39.513)

different hospitals with the lead psychiatrist there who recognized the need for AARC and the child will go to the hospital stabilized, kept there for a week. And then the parents will say, I want them to come back to AARC. the hospital will even work with us at transferring them back to the AARC program. And our staff, even though they're not in our care anymore and have been apprehended by the police, taken to the hospital.

Our staff are so incredible and we're doing this not for a paycheck. We have staff members that will drive up to the hospital and go and meet with the youth and talk to them and share their story and encourage them to come back to the program. And these are the peer counselors that we use, know, 19, 20, 21 year old kids that are just a big, big part of the art program can get through to these other youth in ways that I can't because they're

the same age and they'll just share their story, share that they ran from AARC to like some of our staff ran from AARC and went through the whole process. And they just connect with the kids on such a level where the kids in the hospital will say, you know, there's a turning point that happens where they'll say, I don't really want this amount of help and I want to keep using drugs, but I do want something better and yeah, I'm going to come back. And that switch that takes place from it's involuntary,

Lisa (49:39.916)

Thank

Chuck (49:42.802)

You

Donny (50:03.696)

to then suddenly the youth want to be there is just incredible to see. And it changes so fast. Like there's clients that I've done intakes on that threatened me, throwing chairs at me, attacked me. I've called the police. Two weeks later, I'm sitting down with them and they're apologetic and they're saying, thank you for stepping in front of me, Donny. I want to be here now. I want something different and I'm sorry.

Lisa (50:07.254)

Mm

Donny (50:31.106)

I did that and I'll tell them there's no resentment. There's nothing like they're in the disease. They're in the addiction and you get between them and their drugs, their alcohol, the substance, they're going to be violent. They're going to, to, you know, want to do anything they can to you still. So yeah.

Lisa (50:32.683)

Hmm.

Lisa (50:41.301)

Mm

Lisa (50:49.046)

Mm

Ciara Brady (50:49.871)

Yeah, and if I can just add to that, as a parent, mean, that level of support was something that we hadn't received before AARC. My son didn't run, but as you guys know, I work at AARC now and I do see and understand and it makes me proud to represent AARC because they will not hesitate to go that extra mile that other programmes don't.

Chuck (50:52.971)

Peace.

Ciara Brady (51:17.081)

and not to be disrespectful of other programs, it's treatment at AARC is different for these kids. And it's very much, you know, there are very, very strong messages delivered from the get -go, like with the first phone call that Donny is talking about, like, but they're delivered, the messages are delivered with a foundation of care, even though they're strong messages and it just makes the level of support.

Lisa (51:17.344)

Mm

Lisa (51:38.348)

Thank

Ciara Brady (51:43.567)

It's almost comforting. It's probably not a great word because nothing about this journey is comforting, but at that point to receive that level of support, it's amazing.

Chuck (51:51.593)

I think it must be. think that I don't think you could come up with a better word to be honest with you. Like I just what I'm imagining is the relief of just knowing that there's all these people looking out after your kid. Right. And yes. Right. Like I think comforting is a perfect word for that personally. mean, you know, yeah.

Ciara Brady (52:03.652)

Yeah, at different levels, the support at every level, right?

Lisa (52:04.203)

Mm

Lisa (52:11.476)

Yeah, and not feeling alone anymore, I think. You know, not feeling like...

Ciara Brady (52:14.212)

Absolutely. Connection for everybody.

Chuck (52:17.515)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. It's absolutely amazing. The whole thing is and I, I constantly refer to it as like this, like revolutionary thing, but it's not. You've been around for 30 years and I guess, and it shouldn't be this crazy new thing that, but I think it just sounds like it is because it's just not, not enough people know. And I guess that's what we're trying to do here. Right. So.

Donny (52:39.74)

Yeah. And on that, I do want to comment that it's a very exciting time right now, this discussion and youth and this mandated treatment and voluntary treatment. think over the years we've tried a lot of different approaches as policy makers, government, professionals. We realize that it's not working and that there needs to be changes and there needs to be different levels of intervention. And the current government has been incredibly supportive. I mean, there's conversations going across all...

Ciara Brady (52:39.878)

Mm -hmm.

Chuck (52:45.513)

Yes.

Chuck (52:59.999)

Yes.

Donny (53:09.351)

Canada, in the US about looking at this different type of intervention where it is standing in front of someone and offering that extra level of support to those that need it. I totally understand, others don't, but this conversation, this discussion, in my opinion, has been neglected far too long and there are lives at stake. And we have an opportunity now in this policy window and policy windows are only open for a certain amount of time.

Chuck (53:32.715)

Yes.

Donny (53:38.023)

But what you're doing today, and Lisa, your passion for this too, is that our voices need to get out there and we need to make people aware of this and make some changes in this short amount of time coming up now for future generations and future practitioners and clinicians, policymakers, all need to be aware of this,

Chuck (53:57.074)

100%. As I've been sitting here listening in the back of my head, it's been, there is no other jurisdiction in North America that would be so open to this, right? Or that this would get, you know, but I don't want to use the word aloud, but that this model would be a thing, I don't think. Maybe in some of the states, but I don't think in Canada anywhere would you get this.

you know, that kind of support or, you know, that the government's allowing to it right now. So.

Donny (54:28.605)

Yeah. And especially with youth, there is a difference. I do want to emphasize too, with adults and working with youth, but my passion is with youth and they are specifically vulnerable. They're not able to make decisions on their own. Their brains aren't fully developed. They're emotional, dysregulated. There's all kinds of issues that are going on there that I believe, and this is my opinion, that we have a responsibility as adults to take care of our youth.

Chuck (54:32.105)

Yes big difference. Yeah. Yeah

Donny (54:57.746)

And that's how I view what I'm doing. And if that means that they're coming into our program and there's issues with that, I'm totally willing to stand behind that. That's a professional belief and a personal belief of mine. I really care about kids. Yeah.

Chuck (54:58.676)

Absolutely.

Chuck (55:11.86)

The admission process, I think if somebody stops and listens to what you've had to say in this episode, Donny, about what it takes to get into the program, you know, like there's, this isn't just some flippant thing where people are sending their kids off to sober camp, right? Like this is, you know, this is a very real thing. This isn't for everybody. You guys understand that? Obviously you understand that.

Just everything you said about the admission process, I didn't realize it was at that level that people had to be to get there. And I think that's a great thing. If you're gonna use the word involuntary, you have a lot of protocols that are in place to make sure that it's the right people that it's being used on. I think that's absolutely amazing, right? Go ahead, Lisa, yeah.

Lisa (56:01.398)

Hi.

I don't even know where to begin. Absolutely. And I do think that trying to help people with addiction from the earliest point we can is the best option. To me, there is no question there, right? In terms of the likelihood of them succeeding, in terms of minimizing the...

Chuck (56:09.661)

you

Lisa (56:33.044)

collateral damage that this disease will wreak on everybody in this individual's life. But I do want to add that while, yes, adolescents lack capacity, adults in active addiction lack capacity, too. If you look at brain imaging of somebody in active addiction who has a frontal lobe that has very little brain activity, they lack capacity.

If you also look at current processes that are already in existence and used every single day to certify patients, adults into hospital, to deem adults in hospital to lack capacity, to force treatment on adults in hospital because they lack capacity, these are processes by which you need extensive psychiatric assessments, you need second opinion psychiatric assessments,

Patients are entitled to access review panels that are made up of lawyers, psychiatrists, laypeople in the community. There is an extensive process in place that we use in mental health all the time to treat people with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder and depression and various personality disorders. And we do this all the time. And this idea that addiction is its own little special disease that somehow these processes couldn't possibly

work for in an ethical fashion is complete BS. And so, you know, the process by which we force treatment, say on someone with schizophrenia in hospital is extensive. Not every patient who shows up at a hospital with schizophrenia is deemed to lack capacity and is forced medication they don't want. It's used for certain cases. We should already be doing this for people with addiction.

adult or child, and the processes we need to do it ethically already exist.

Chuck (58:35.563)

Yes, 100%. Well, go ahead, Donny.

Donny (58:35.808)

Completely agree. Well said, Lisa. Yeah, exactly.

Lisa (58:37.418)

Mic drop.

Ciara Brady (58:38.646)

Hahaha!

Donny (58:41.974)

And just to add to that, what Lisa said is that that is the AARC process as well. The pre -assessment process, the gathering of the collateral information. We have an outside assessment that's done by a psychologist 30 days into the program that even determines whether or not they are appropriately placed in the program. If they're not, they're discharged to another program. The youth do have the right, and some of them make use of that, to contact lawyers and ask for...

Lisa (58:44.203)

Hahaha

Donny (59:09.886)

a legal opinion about challenging the decision that their parents made to place them in the program. We have all those conversations and it is extensive. We look at every piece because we don't want someone that doesn't meet that criteria and that it could be harmful for them. So I really like what Lisa said with that. People don't understand how extensive the process is and constantly

assessing, reassessment, the assessment never ends, it's ongoing. And yeah, yeah, absolutely. And we have a psychiatrist that meets with the clients 30 days after they enter the art program. And the reason why she waits 30 days is because we have to wait to determine what are the mental health systems or mental health issues that were caused perhaps by the substances and which weren't. And after 30 days,

Lisa (59:41.132)

Mm

Chuck (59:42.955)

Amazing.

Donny (01:00:03.147)

she's able to get an understanding of that. And if we need that additional mental health support, because we know addiction and mental health co -occurring disorders, they're there all the time. Our psychiatrist helps the clients with that, our clients. So, and if they need medication, great. So, yeah, yeah.

Chuck (01:00:22.187)

Amazing, amazing. Listen, we could talk about this for, yeah, we could. We've gone to the top of the hour just that fast. you've been an amazing guest. We didn't pre -warn you. Lisa's job is to pre -warn people about daily gratitudes. She jumped off, but. Keira, let's start with you and get some daily gratitudes.

Lisa (01:00:38.956)

you

Rusty, but gone for three weeks.

Ciara Brady (01:00:43.592)

Ha ha ha.

Donny (01:00:45.771)

Hahaha!

Ciara Brady (01:00:51.928)

sure. the first thing that comes into my mind is, so my sister and her family have just visited from Ireland. They left two days ago and, yeah, we have, that's good. That's good. but yeah, she has a seven year old daughter and a four year old, son and to have them in my house for the last 10 days, the sounds of their footsteps, the

Chuck (01:01:03.049)

noticed your accents a bit thicker. So yeah.

Ciara Brady (01:01:21.064)

Like just that well the Irishness let's start with that and then just their little characters You know it has just been so good for my soul the goodbyes that they always take me out but like Yeah, just the innocence and it was just lovely. I'm just so grateful for that time, right? Yeah

Chuck (01:01:41.547)

That's amazing, that's amazing. Donny, how about you? What you got for some daily gratitudes?

Donny (01:01:45.625)

I just think every time I tell my story and my family's story and just that ability to break that cycle and I think of my my nieces and my nephew and that they have an opportunity now to have a new life and that that pattern's been broken and then I I'm also grateful for the work that I do and that ability to share that message and carry that message that other families and other kids can can

know, receive what we receive and be blessed by that. And I also wanted to say I'm very grateful to have met you, Lisa, and you, Chris, as well, and that what you're doing and calling attention to this, it's just so, so important. So I'm just very, very grateful I have this work and we're carrying this message and hopefully we can help save some more lives. And grateful for Kira always. She's just an amazing support. And Dr. Voss, I do want to say that

saved me and my family 26 years ago because of his program. So a lot of amazing things happening. There's a lot of hope, I think. And there is a way out of this. That's the biggest thing, the most thing I'm grateful for. Yeah.

Lisa (01:02:44.64)

Yeah.

Chuck (01:02:47.381)

kidding

Chuck (01:02:56.063)

No kidding, no kidding. Lisa, what are you grateful for?

Lisa (01:03:00.463)

I feel like I have many today. No one's asked me in three weeks, so they're all built up now.

Lisa (01:03:09.452)

You know, one, literally the last few weeks of just getting to spend time with my seven -year -old, and it is such a fun age, right? A lot of attitude, but it's also a lot of fun. But yeah, so getting to have that time with her, and also to have had my mom come on this camping trip with her and I, you know, just the three girls setting up the tent, you know, it was a journey.

Chuck (01:03:35.064)

That's awesome.

Ciara Brady (01:03:36.302)

Mm -hmm

Chuck (01:03:38.497)

I was going to ask about like camping with Lisa. I'm impressed that you said tent. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Donny (01:03:41.892)

You

Lisa (01:03:42.312)

Yeah, right. Yeah. it was an attempt. It was an attempt. I also on this particular trip got to spend time with my brother and his family, you know, and so getting to spend time with him getting to see him home with his family with his kids. That's obviously incredible. And then I don't know if I can say this without crying, but today is Devin birthday.

Chuck (01:03:54.269)

nice.

Lisa (01:04:13.996)

So Devin is a part of this Ashes to Awesome family. He had, think about almost 19 years sober, ran Revolution Recovery in Vancouver for what, nine years, I guess. And we lost Devin, what's it been June, July, about three months ago.

And yeah, miss him dearly. And it's his birthday today. So I'm grateful for him. I'm grateful for all the people he helped. It was incredible going to his celebration of life and hearing the stories from so many people whose lives he saved. So I'm trying to be grateful instead of just devastated.

but they definitely still coexist. Such a huge loss to the world, such a huge loss to me. He'd become so dear to me. But I'm to be grateful that he was born and for the life that he lived.

Yeah.

Chuck (01:05:37.387)

I'm gonna echo some of that to just say, Devin is how Lisa and I met in the first place, almost two years ago now, a year and a half ago now, something like that. He was also one of the first sponsors of the show, way back when. mean, yeah, so I'm grateful for Devin having existed. yeah, Yeah, Jesus. I'm also grateful.

to every single person who continues to support our platform, talking about it, commenting, liking, sharing, doing all of those things, everything you're doing to help get the word out. Every time you do any one of these things, you're getting me a little bit closer to living my best life. My best life is to continue making a humble living, spreading the message. And the message is this. If you're in active addiction right now, today could be the day. Today could be the day that you start a lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call in a detox, go to a meeting, pray, go to church. I don't care.

Do whatever it is you have to do to get that journey started. This is so much better than the alternative. If you have a loved one who's suffering an addiction right now, should take the time to listen to this amazing conversation. If you just take one more minute out of your day and text that person, let them know they're loved. Use the words.

Lisa (01:06:53.599)

You are love.

Ciara Brady (01:06:53.828)

You are love.

Donny (01:06:55.14)

You are love.

Chuck (01:06:57.151)

That little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings him back.

forgot to tell you about the...