274 - YOUTH ADDICTION - A DAD’S REFLECTIVE JOURNEY

Chuck/Chris (00:02.186)

Hello everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds. Welcome to another episode of the Ashes to Awesome podcast. I'm your host Chuck LaFlange checking in from Krabi, Thailand, halfway around the world. In Calgary, Alberta is my beautiful co -host Dr. Lisa. How are doing today, Lisa?

Lisa (00:16.179)

I'm very good, very good, happy to be here.

Chuck/Chris (00:19.146)

Happy to have you back on. And I'm still kind of on this like hangover from not having you around for three weeks where it's just like, yeah. So I'm quite happy that you're back to, things are back to normal around here. Our next guest is our returning guests from one of our partner organizations at AARC that's the Alberta Adolescent Recovery Centre. Ciara how are you doing today, Ciara?

Ciara (00:40.162)

I'm great thanks Chris, glad to be here too.

Chuck/Chris (00:42.678)

Good stuff, I got the name right the first time. If you notice this, I've got every time since pre -record two, I've got the name right. So gold star, my chart, just saying. Our final guest for today, of course, is Tony. Tony is a father of a graduate. And of course, the AARC program being what it is, a graduate himself of the AARC program. How you doing today, Tony?

Ciara (00:45.11)

Yay!

Awesome.

Tony (01:04.175)

Good Chris, thanks for having me on.

Chuck/Chris (01:06.058)

Thank you for coming on. As we were just discussing before I hit the record button, we have a lack of fathers that come on the show and I think that's something that I need to work on. I end up just speaking to more mothers and there's so many more fathers that have something to say. So I'm really glad that you're here to share some of your thoughts and your journey, what pieces of it that you'd like to talk about. It goes a long ways to everything. Before we get into that though,

I just do want to acknowledge that today is overdose awareness day.

Chuck/Chris (01:45.492)

Shit, I didn't see that coming. Not at all. We've done a bunch of memorial episodes. I've spoken to so many parents, so many siblings, loved ones in general, of people that we've lost. And I think it's really important to acknowledge the people that we've lost and the effects that it's had on so many families all around the world in Canada and North America, literally hundreds of thousands in the last few years.

Right, so this is a real problem. It's something that needs to be addressed. And we'll just do our little part here today in addressing that. So just wanted to make mention of that. Shit, I didn't see that. That was a record, Lisa, did you see that? No, not at all. I've never cried that early in an episode. Not that it's a funny thing. So anyway, let's move past that now just so that I can function for the rest of this.

Lisa (02:29.385)

I know, didn't see that one coming that quick either. That's okay.

Ciara (02:34.914)

you

Chuck/Chris (02:43.434)

Tony, so you're the dad. I'm gonna let you kind of share your journey and we'll ask you some questions as you go along if you're okay with that. And share what parts of it you're willing to share, because I know, whatever, for obvious reasons there's things that people don't wanna talk about and wanna talk about, right? So could you kind of give us, take it away, take it away, right?

Tony (03:07.088)

Yeah, well, it's being national awareness as well. We're lucky where our kid is, you know, after those couple of times and we're the lucky ones. He's still with us here and he's in recovery now, a couple of years. Yeah, a year and 10 months now he's sober, clean. So yeah, we're extremely lucky to have found AARC.

Chuck/Chris (03:26.608)

yay yay. can I ask what his date is?

Tony (03:34.033)

He's a year and 10 months now, clean.

Chuck/Chris (03:36.95)

So, well, I asked because I'm here and 10 months. October 21st is my anniversary. yeah, okay, okay. So very close to my own journey then. Okay, okay, I never realized that before now. So, okay, yeah, please continue.

Tony (03:39.953)

Alright.

Ciara (03:44.258)

Yeah, it's October sometime. Yeah, I don't know the specific date, but...

Tony (03:55.195)

Yeah, we're just so lucky to have found a program that we could intervene ourselves with and have them, you know, we were at deaths door a couple of times.

Tony (04:08.571)

We're just fortunate to have found AARC

Chuck/Chris (04:08.948)

kidding.

No kidding, no kidding.

Chuck/Chris (04:16.896)

How?

Chuck/Chris (04:20.61)

I'm trying to be sensitive to what we talk about, what we don't talk about here. So I guess, can you tell us a little bit of what your relationship was like when things got bad, but more importantly, much more importantly, where things have gone since recovery? Like how has that changed to finally dynamic, specifically your dynamic with them and, you know, go from there.

Tony (04:45.143)

Yeah, growing up as a kid, it was great. You know, he used to be into sports, he was enthusiastic about what learn. And then as things went by, started to lose grades in school, wasn't so interested in basketball anymore. It kind of made me frustrated. I didn't know what was going on.

Tony (05:08.581)

Then when he got in trouble in school, we realized what was going on and I tried to, as a parent, control it and help it, but I wasn't able to. And that's where I got very frustrated with myself. I thought I couldn't help him.

Chuck/Chris (05:22.774)

Can I ask when you say tried to control it, can you tell me how?

Tony (05:28.636)

Yeah. But trying to guide him in all the right directions, trying to encourage him trying to motivate him bring him to sports, bring him to different activities, support him in every way we could, but it just wasn't sinking in.

Chuck/Chris (05:44.566)

can only imagine how frustrating that must be.

Tony (05:47.354)

Yeah.

Lisa (05:47.619)

Can I ask Tony, like in hindsight, how old was your child when you think now maybe the struggle started?

Tony (05:58.342)

He had just started high school. High school. Yeah, when he started high school, that's things started to go down. So it's...

Lisa (05:58.519)

Like what grade?

Lisa (06:04.845)

Okay. And where do you think, sorry Chris, where do you think that it came into the picture? So for example, in my case, you know, I have a sibling who suffers with substance use disorder and also started in adolescence. And in his case, you know, we have a strong family history of a lot of substance use disorder, not in our immediate family, but in, you know, grandparents, probably mostly.

Chuck/Chris (06:06.07)

So, go ahead. No, go ahead.

Lisa (06:34.187)

And then, you know, had this, a, I think a pretty good early childhood, but then started partying with his hockey team. You know, and of course, most of them walked away from it one day and he did not. But in your case, like where did it kind of come in, come onto the scene?

Tony (06:53.255)

Well, he says it started before high school, which is an episode for him that I've yet to discuss, you know, because we're still in the early stages of recovery. We have on both sides of the family, we've got some alcoholics. So I know wasn't their immediate families as myself and my wife, because our parents didn't drink. So we couldn't understand where it came from until we started thinking about it, I guess in my own head, I was thinking about, okay.

uncles and then learning about the disease that it is healthy to seize might have skipped a generation but it got ironed but he started in high school experimenting and that's where it downhill for him but he couldn't stop like other players on the team he just kept going

Chuck/Chris (07:38.442)

Yeah, so very similar to, yeah.

Lisa (07:38.893)

So it started out with friends though, like initially he wasn't doing things alone. He was doing stuff with his buddies or whatever. Yeah.

Tony (07:45.617)

Yeah, yeah, and then he ended up doing it alone. Yeah, and then finding things in the bedroom, behind the couch, in the bonus room, stuff like that.

Chuck/Chris (07:55.776)

So do you go back, and this is probably something a parent's gonna relate to, so that's why I ask, and I mean, you said it with the benefit of hindsight, your understanding of it then compared to your understanding of it now as to when things kinda started to go off the rails, go back and go, like now that you've learned so much about the disease and you've had a chance to deescalate yourself, I guess, or you know what I mean, to kinda regulate things and go, I guess.

Yeah, there was that and there was that. Does a timeframe change with the benefit of some knowledge and some hindsight?

Tony (08:32.436)

100 % yeah after going through treatment myself while on the journey I've learned a lot about myself and about the disease and how I needed to change my approach to it too and have an understanding to be more compassionate

Chuck/Chris (08:44.783)

So I guess the follow -up to that question then would be, for a parent that's listening right now, is there anything that you can say, I wish I would have caught that specific thing, and maybe that would have changed the trajectory? I what ifs are a horrible thing to dwell on, but again, with the benefit of some knowledge and some hindsight, is there anything that you would say to a parent, hey, watch for this thing, or watch for that thing, right?

Tony (09:13.521)

Well, yeah, I'd say watch out for the grades, watch out for dropping out of social activities or sports and disconnecting with real good friends and starting to mix with the guys that are party animals.

Chuck/Chris (09:23.936)

Fair enough, honey, fair enough. And then.

Tony (09:25.023)

Thank

Ciara (09:26.21)

I think if I can just comment on that as well, think we're touching on a big issue here because the line between experimentation and dependency is, as a parent, I just would not have recognized that line at all. It's such a huge gray area. I think

Chuck/Chris (09:28.628)

Yes, please do.

Ciara (09:52.162)

The way things are now, there is so much experimentation going on and in, you know, even at junior high age and sometimes before. yes, there's like a level of denial as a parent about like, how concerned should I be? Or is this just the norm? Like it's, so easy to normalize it because it's, it's just, I don't know. It was completely new territory for us as parents.

Lisa (10:17.303)

Mm

Ciara (10:22.504)

And like, when do we freak out and when do we like, when do we just kind of try and have those compassionate conversations and and try and support, you know, and I think it was we had conversations then when we went into AARC that educated us a little bit more on that piece, because I don't I just don't I don't know how many parents are set up for that for being thrown into that situation. Right.

Chuck/Chris (10:26.72)

Fair enough, fair enough,

Chuck/Chris (10:49.952)

Yeah, yeah.

Lisa (10:50.221)

Can you share, Ciara like some of what education is provided around that? Like, how do they help parents decipher whether this is experimentation or whether this is...

Ciara (10:57.186)

Ahem.

Lisa (11:03.645)

know, alarm bells going before the big crash.

Ciara (11:06.308)

Sure. Yeah. I think, you know, and I'll just talk about my parent experience there because again, talking about like all those clinical pieces behind the assessment process is not something I like to step into. I mean, for me, that became acutely aware when I was going through the intake process. I met with the pre -assessment coordinator and she really, she spends a lot of time with the parents.

And asking all of those difficult questions and really deciphering whether, you know, the client is or the youth is a good fit for AARC at that time, but also asking the questions, you know, to really get a bigger picture. And the information that she gathers then will be passed to a clinical director, either Donny or Kelly. And at that point, should they fit the

criteria for moving forward with the formal assessment. Basically that is saying, okay, yes, now you're looking at dependency and treatment is what's needed.

Lisa (12:14.893)

think what's really challenging, and maybe both of you as parents can relate to this, but I obviously can understand how you can sit down with somebody and assess and ascertain if today they're struggling with addiction, right? Like, I can do that. The hard part is when your kid's experimenting, unless you have a crystal ball, you don't know where you're headed.

And that's the terrifying thing. You know, if you find out your kid smoking a bit of weed or, you know, doing whatever they're doing, you really have no way. I mean, yes, you can look at your family genetics and, you know, yes, you can ask yourself, has my child suffered trauma because these things are going to increase the risk that they will evolve into struggling with addiction. But at the end of the day, it's kind of like a hindsight is 2020 sort of scenario.

You know, because when you've got a kid who's smoking some pot, you don't know if pot is going to lead to cocaine, is going to lead to crack, is going to lead to meth. Or if your kid's going to smoke a bit of pot and then a year from now be like, you know what, that makes me feel gross. I'm not doing that anymore. You know, so yeah, it's easy to tell that, okay, this kid is now struggling with addiction and they need a program like AARC. But in the early days, it's not so easy to tell which way you're going.

Ciara (13:30.68)

Yeah.

Ciara (13:39.426)

Yeah, no. Yeah, because nobody knows. Are they going to have an off switch or are they not? And it's. You don't know until you're deep in there and, know, just to relate to something that Tony said earlier, like it's that's what they say at AARC. It's fun, then it's fun with problems and then it's just problems. And it's when you're dealing with just the problems, it's when you're. Really reaching out for treatment and just like, the heck do we do now? You know, yeah.

Lisa (13:59.011)

Totally.

Lisa (14:06.145)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Chuck/Chris (14:07.062)

Now.

Tony (14:08.104)

I didn't think of it that way, but I also gave a little leniency to him as well because we moved country as well. So that I thought he might be experimenting a bit and fitting in with his new peers. So I gave a little bit too much leniency in a sense. I'm not having that awareness about the whole disease. And then rapidly took over.

Chuck/Chris (14:29.775)

Lisa said that perfectly though, without a crystal ball, what is, right? I mean, you can go back and say that to yourself now, but in the moment, geez, know, what a hard thing to navigate. What an unbelievably hard thing to navigate.

Lisa (14:34.369)

You don't know.

Ciara (14:39.65)

Mm -hmm.

Lisa (14:42.551)

And it's of similar in my family's scenario, know, like my parents became aware that my brother was partying a bit, drinking a bit, doing some weed. And they knew, and they again sort of thought, well, you know, lot of kids are doing this, you know, and they wanted him to have a safe space. know, they didn't want to be so confrontational that he would go to a party and then not want to come home.

right? It's like they wanted him to continue to come home. They thought, well, if we're not too hard on him, then he's more likely to be honest with us. you know, so like the reasoning behind it makes tons of sense. And again, if I think, you know, if he was somebody who wasn't, I believe, completely wired to end up on on the path to addiction, maybe that would have worked out really well for them. But there was definitely the same thing.

Like I don't put words in my parents' mouth, but I think they would very much relate to that. That you're trying to understand, well, why are they doing it? How much should I freak out? And in hindsight, you go, gosh, like if only we had known, then could we have altered the trajectory? But.

Ciara (15:55.234)

Mm -hmm.

Tony (15:59.651)

Yeah, there's also that part where like you're saying Lisa, you give them that bit of leniency. You're worried, but you're, you don't want to destroy a great relationship that you have with them in your instances by being that control freak, right? But then, then when they get deep into it, you do become that control freak. That's what happened with me, my experience. And then it, it damaged the relationship because I was too controlling. And then you blame yourself thinking, did I push them too far?

Chuck/Chris (16:14.944)

No kidding.

Lisa (16:25.603)

Yeah.

Chuck/Chris (16:25.728)

Yeah.

Tony (16:29.057)

Is he doing this now because of me?

Lots of

Chuck/Chris (16:32.445)

There's this it's a no win situation. And to aggravate that is the fact that every it's also unique. Right. Each kid is unique. Each parent is unique. Their relationships are unique. And so to say this is what you should do. Who knows what you should do? Who's in, you know, and for parents, mean, I can't imagine. I just I can't imagine having to figure that out or trying to figure that out. I just can't. Lisa.

You've said it in a few episodes in the past and I think it's very relevant right now. That story about how you had spoken to your ex -boyfriend about the difference between your brother and other kids. I'm gonna get you to kind of repeat that now because I think it's very relevant and we've got a whole bunch of different new people listening right now. So if you could kind of tell that real quick if you don't mind.

Lisa (17:13.059)

Hmm.

Lisa (17:23.213)

Mm

Lisa (17:27.393)

Yeah, yeah, I think I know the, I think I know what you're talking about, but yeah, so I, okay. So I, you know, when my brother was going through his journey, I was dating a guy at the time and he meant well, like I think he truly inherently like wanted to be compassionate and wanted to understand. And we had conversations around the topic of choice.

Chuck/Chris (17:31.35)

Of course you do. It's like my favorite Lisa quote. Of course you do.

Lisa (17:56.215)

you know, like was this my brother's choosing? Did he make choices that resulted in this? And the interesting thing that worked out well for me was that in this particular situation, this was a guy who had partied when he was young. know, like we were in our late 20s at the time, but when he was in his early 20s, you know, he was somebody who had partied. He had done ecstasy. He had done cocaine. you know, and again, like,

at a party level, like he'd be at parties and he would do this stuff. And I remember saying to him one day, you I said like, what my brother did and what you did are actually no different. You know, my brother did the same thing. He went to the parties, he partied with his buddies, he, you know, thought he would do some drugs at a party. The difference came down to the fact that again, from a genetic perspective, I think my brother was wired to develop an addiction.

And it's kind of like playing Russian roulette, you know, and when you're young, you don't know, when you pull the trigger, you don't know what you're going to get. But I think that that was something that really resonated for him, because he was able to say, right, like, you know, I actually did the exact same stuff your brother did. The difference was, he was able to walk away, as the majority of people are. But it's like, you don't know when you're going to be that person who can't walk away, you know?

Chuck/Chris (19:20.79)

Absolutely. So I can imagine, stereotypical thing, you're sitting there, you're having a neighborhood barbecue or the neighbors over at the barbecue and you're talking about your kids and they both did the same thing on Friday nights, but who knows? One kid goes this way and one kid goes the other way with that. yeah, second guessing yourself, it's natural, but I don't think it's a fair thing to do to oneself either, because who knows, right? Who knows?

Ciara (19:21.646)

Yeah.

Ciara (19:41.709)

Yeah.

Lisa (19:45.933)

But I also, know, the thing that came up for me when Tony said that, that he questions himself now is like, I have so many patients, Tony, who have nobody. They have nobody. Everybody has given up on them, walked away from them. You know, I have patients like I've had people in hospital with me for six plus months where not one family member reaches out to ask, how are they? Are they okay? Can I support them? What's going on?

I've even had families in situations where I've taken the initiative to reach out to the family going, where the hell are these people? And they're just like, yeah, no, I'm busy. Like, and I'll say like, do you have questions? Which is there any information you'd like? I've got consent to speak with you. And they're like, nope, nope, don't need anything. I'm good. And so I've had the conversation with patients, and I've had the conversations with patients families, where, sure, maybe it's annoying.

But if you've got a family member who is there and they're annoying you, you're one of the lucky ones.

Chuck/Chris (20:48.918)

Damn straight. Damn straight. Right? So.

Tony (20:49.411)

Yeah, you're right.

Lisa (20:50.711)

You know? Yep. Yep.

Ciara (20:50.722)

Yeah. Yeah. I don't think I even answered your initial question earlier, which is, you know, very closely tied in with this as well is that education piece. And you did, sorry, you asked me earlier, I went down a side road, but you did ask about like how they introduce that education piece in AARC. it's very important for that reason, because a lot of the families are shattered by the time they're coming into AARC. Like there's a huge amount of blame and resentment on both sides.

from the kids themselves, from parents and siblings, like the resentment has built. You're talking about like, you know, chemical dependency and kids that are willing to do anything to stay in their addiction. So along that journey, they do things that are not representative of their core personality. And we see that a lot at AARC. And so as parents and

Chuck/Chris (21:43.39)

And absolutely.

Ciara (21:49.604)

just from my recollection, the very first introduction that I had to learning more, well, being educated around addiction. So we are introduced to the 12 steps of AA based on the Al -Anon program. But as part of that, the very first thing I was given to read when I met our family counselor in AARC was the doctor's opinion in the AA book. And it just not that it

It just opened my eyes a little bit to perhaps looking at this, approaching this a little bit differently. And it opened a door where I kind of, I was like, just maybe this is something worth looking into. And from there and just being with the families, obviously like hearing their journeys and how many people had been on a similar path and taking kids in and the recovery home and

Tony (22:36.326)

Thank

Ciara (22:49.228)

And seeing the core of these kids made it really obvious to me that this was not a choice. And hearing the parent version, because you're in like a group therapy session with parents on a weekly basis, it kind of, it was just quite, quite eye -opening. Like we, we had all dealt with the journey in a way that we...

Like nobody's proud walking into AARC. Like I think the journey as a parent, it does push you to some extremes of your personality. You say things you don't mean, you think things you never want to think about your kid. And it's, that's why the family component of AARC is so important because everybody needs to first of all, be educated and second of all, heal together.

Chuck/Chris (23:38.666)

Thank you for bringing it back to AARC. Thank you. Because I want to ask you, Tony, we've had the benefit now of hearing from Ciara and another mother and.

Ciara (23:42.102)

Mm

Chuck/Chris (23:50.186)

Generally speaking, as I said earlier, we've had a lot of moms on the show, but a dad is a very rare thing. So with AARC, you get there and you get some education, like Ciara was just speaking to now. How does it change things for you?

Chuck/Chris (24:10.144)

How does it change things for you in the way, now that you, at the time anyway, does it deescalate things for you? Tell us about how you feel walking into that and being supported in a way that, I can only assume you would not have been outside of that program, I mean, in so many different ways, right? Can you speak to that?

Tony (24:30.342)

Sure can. Yeah. When we went to AARC, it was very, very late. It was just the very last moments we were lucky to have found AARC. So when we got there, I didn't know a lot of the program. Ciara did all the research and I thought it was okay. The kid's going in here. He's going to get fixed. I didn't know anything about the disease. I actually, me and ******* at that point were falling out. You know, I resented him. He resented me because of what was going on.

But about four months into the program, I realized, okay, I'm working on myself here. You know, I didn't understand it until they educated me because not enough education or addiction. People think it's something like, you know, fall into and become a choice and just do it. It's not like that. That was a big learning for me. Now I have more compassion about it. So whenever me and ******* are together, we talk, we together now have more empathy, discuss things. If he's in the valley, I go in the valley with him. We try and climb the mountain then.

and we resolve things, we make peace with ourselves.

Chuck/Chris (25:34.23)

That's amazing. It's amazing. then, something in our last episode with with Ciara, when Donny was on, and of course we spoke with us pre -record too, and that really hit hard on me when Donny was speaking, that's Donny Serink if anybody's paying attention, 269 I think was the episode? Have I got that right? Yep. About the difference in his family's life now for...

I mean, his niece and nephew. So now you're getting into the next generation. And of course, the decades in between then and now that curbing this thing or catching this thing early has made, like the difference it's made in their lives. So for you now, I mean, you're almost two years into it.

What's, so there's a question I asked you a while back that we all went on a tangent and I never did get you to answer was what's like the difference in the relationship forever now between you guys? Like how does that look? And I guess you just kind of answer it now, but to me it's such a profound thing that things are forever changed as a result whether or not things go the way you want them to for the rest of his life.

AARC has given you an opportunity to change things forever and I think that's just amazing.

Chuck/Chris (27:01.078)

so I'm not sure what the question is there. Lisa, I'll let you jump into some questions, because I kind of went on a little bit of a tangent there, but yeah. I do that.

Lisa (27:06.051)

I guess one of the things that I would love to hear Tony talk a little bit about, and I don't know if it's something you've reflected on, have insight on, or that you're comfortable to talk about, but you you mentioned that you tried to control things. And I guess it stands out to me, because again, I see parallels in my family. And I again, to stereotype, and that's what it is, but

you know, stereotyping, and it fits in my family. You know, my mom was the softer one, the more nurturing one, the one trying to have the conversations. And my dad was the one who was like, I'm going to fix this, I'm going to control this. So I'm just wondering, like, if you can share a bit about, you know, if you've reflected on that, and what you've kind of learned about, like, what was driving that for you that need to try to control the situation?

Tony (28:05.084)

Yeah, sure. When things started slipping in school, grades and stuff like that.

I got on this case about going to school, the importance of education, because in my background, was always every father wants their son to be better than them. I want him to be better than me, and I could see it slipping. And I just wanted the best for him. So in that respect, I tried to coerce him into the way I would be thinking. But after learning, I went through the 12 steps of AA as well in the program in AARC. And step one is to powerless over alcohol.

What I learned about AlAnon is that step one is basically mind your own business. You can't be controlling them.

thought they were more damage trying to get that guideline. I think he went out and probably said, F you, know, I'm doing this, doing this and that's that I kind of blame myself in that respect a little bit.

Lisa (29:03.725)

Do you see that like the desire to control was probably driven by fear?

Tony (29:09.063)

that was a whole lecture. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And that

Lisa (29:13.153)

Right? that's like, sorry, go ahead.

Tony (29:16.809)

That fear then turns into anger as well. And then anger with yourself when it comes out to other people. It's not nice.

Lisa (29:19.863)

Mm -hmm, totally.

Lisa (29:27.713)

Yeah, and we've even spoken on the show, right, about, because I think it's pretty hard to be the loved one of somebody in an addiction and not experience anger.

Chuck/Chris (29:39.978)

that Jesus, I think, is the only person ever that could.

Lisa (29:43.969)

Right? And the thing is that anger is powerful, right? And we've spoken about this before, but like if I have a patient say to me, well, I'm angry, I'm like, okay, but how are you really? Because like anger is just the blanket on top of the real thing, right? But people will go to anger because anger feels powerful, right? If you think about your alternative where I can sit in the corner and cry and feel scared.

Chuck/Chris (29:45.172)

know, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lisa (30:07.051)

or I can put the blanket of anger on and stand up and scream and Raaaah you know, and it's like anger feels powerful. So people are far more comfortable to be angry than they are to sit in a vulnerable place of fear. And so it's pretty common. Yeah, I was going somewhere with that and I've lost my train of thought.

Tony (30:31.382)

No, I get what you're saying.

Ciara (30:31.566)

Well, I have something to say too.

Ciara (30:37.742)

Tony, finish off what you were gonna say. This is your question.

Tony (30:40.738)

I get what you're saying Lisa, 100 % because that anger, it's a sense of self -importance in a way to try and cope with it yourself but it's not the right approach because when I went to AARC and I met the group of men that I know there that helped me get out of this rut that I was in

Being vulnerable was what helped me a lot. Learning about the disease. And then being able to cry about it and talk to men about it. They don't talk enough about this stuff. That's what helped me. The vulnerability and the support.

Chuck/Chris (31:13.652)

I can only guess, but you strike me as a type of man that previously this vulnerability was not one of your dominant characteristics. can only guess, right? So that shift there must have been profound for you. Is that, that has to be, I can only put words in your mouth, but that has to be a direct result of the peer to peer.

Tony (31:25.698)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tony (31:43.606)

sure is. is. I couldn't become the man I am now without that group of men in AARC. Without that community. To understand myself better, understand people better, to understand the disease better. To me, a better person, to help people, it's so much better life in the Anger. The humility is just beautiful.

Chuck/Chris (31:44.081)

It has to be, yeah.

Chuck/Chris (31:52.436)

Ooh, that's powerful.

Chuck/Chris (32:08.982)

We've spoken about this not that long ago, Lisa. 12 Steps, like, and for myself, you know, had I not fallen into addiction and led that life and now, say recovery rather than 12 Steps specifically, but 12 Steps is definitely the dominant, you know, path to go. There is no way I would be taking the time and the effort to grow the way that I am now.

If I wasn't in recovery, you know, I'd be another cog in the machine doing my thing and living my life but you for yourself through 12 steps through fellowship at AARC arc through the group therapy all those things Everything you just said now There's I don't think there's any way most people anyway would ever be in a place where they'll say like Learning to be a better man even trying to be a better man even thinking about trying to be a better man. It's just not something that

most people do because they're just living their life. So if there's a silver lining to everything that you have gone through, I would say that that might be it. Right? And it's just that, just working on yourself. Most people don't do that for, know, without some sort of cause to it anyway. Right? So.

Tony (33:09.804)

Okay.

Ciara (33:25.262)

Yeah.

Lisa (33:25.429)

I that's why I've said before that I feel like we should, and I've even joked about this with my brother. I'm like, I wanna go to therapy. I wanna go to do a program. But I think substances are not. I think like what we could all gain out of doing a program like AA or other ones too, but would be profound. And it's also why like I'll have

Ciara (33:33.656)

you

Lisa (33:53.091)

colleagues or I'll have friends who are like, how can you enjoy working with people who struggle with addiction? And in part, I think people say that because it is such a beast. It's such a powerful beast, and we do not always win. And I think for some people, it's, you know, it's like it beats you down, it beats you down, and it can be overwhelming. But I have said it before, and I'm sure I've said it on the show. People that I know,

particularly people who not necessarily are inactive recovery, but who have been in recovery, who have worked recovery programs, are the most incredible human beings that I have ever met in my life in terms of level of insight, in terms of seeing the world without judgment. They're wise, they're insightful, they're compassionate.

Chuck/Chris (34:51.264)

She's talking about me right now, just saying. I'm just kidding. Sorry, I just throw in a jackass moment there.

Ciara (34:52.621)

Ha ha ha!

Ciara (34:57.721)

You

Lisa (34:58.957)

But do you know what I mean? And it's because of exactly what Tony's just alluding to. Like you do this work, you do these programs. yeah, like I just don't think you can work a program like AA or Al -Anon and not come out of it a better person.

Tony (35:16.151)

It's powerful. going through the program, what really got me is the level of support from other men that were all professionals, from all different walks of life.

Ciara (35:17.689)

Yeah.

Tony (35:33.159)

But I think it's so seriously now because I remember talking to one gentleman. He called me and I met him about two months later on because I'm I'm as part of the community to discussing with other men. I met him about two months later after this phone call and he said to me one day and this is what changed me and makes me take it even more serious to help other people. When I met him face to face, he shook my hand. gave me a hug. says I'm alive today because of you. He wasn't an addict. He was a father.

That was powerful for me. It drives me now.

Chuck/Chris (36:07.862)

kidding

Lisa (36:07.939)

Totally.

Ciara (36:08.845)

Yeah. And I think just to, and this is absolutely about the, you know, the dads today, but like when we're talking about that, piece of, you know, living through the All -Anon program and that's, that's what the AARC community have built is, you know, any AARC event that, that I attend or have attended in the past, no matter where you turn, there are people hugging. And

You know, visually, it's just beautiful to see. But behind those hugs, like you say, Lisa, are people who are living now through the Al -Anon program or AA and have really learned to live with like integrity and humility and gratitude. There's a huge amount of gratitude and, you know, not necessarily people who are

you know, have come through AARC and things are better and our kids are living this wonderful life of success. I'm also talking about people who, know, whose kids are still struggling, perhaps back out or passed away or. Like it's it's really, I think the AARC program provides people with like a new set of tools to navigate this journey. like.

We were talking about earlier, everybody who walks through the doors of AARC is driven by fear. Yes, some of that looks like anger for me. I really ramped up that part like, if we we just love him enough, like if we just keep going with this compassionate approach and it just became like obsessive might be a little bit extreme, but it was just like I he's got to know he's loved no matter what. And that's.

It was, it was hard that that piece of the journey is, it's just so emotionally charged that it's, it's, it becomes exhausting and it's an awful feeling to have resentment around that piece. Cause it's like, no, I mean, that's a, that's a message of a parent is that you love them no matter what, but it's, you know, it's, it's a tough journey, then to be connected with this community of parents who have

Lisa (38:14.221)

Mm

Lisa (38:27.971)

Mm

Ciara (38:34.178)

who are also driven by fear and are dealing with it in many different ways. I'm not saying it's black and white, either it's anger or it's compassion. There are lots of different ways that this presents because people are just like, nobody's prepared for that journey. So it's hard to know what way it's going to go.

Lisa (38:49.59)

and

know if either of you could comment on this or both of you want to comment on it but another thing I think that's interesting for families is that oftentimes the moms and the dads have very different ideas about how to approach the situation and I've seen it cause conflict between moms and dads but you know did you guys have the experience of

feeling supported by the other or how did that, you what was that like for you?

Tony (39:28.516)

on different pages for sure. Yeah, I was more like I don't want to over escalate the word of controlling but I was more into that side of it. I had a lot of compassion. You know, I didn't see the compassionate part. was like, what the hell's going on my kid? You know, not understanding. But yeah, totally. right. Two different pages. A lot of couples probably go through that.

Ciara (39:46.518)

Yeah.

Lisa (39:53.165)

Yeah, and I saw that in my parents too, like very different. Yeah. Even, you know, things about money, you know, like the phone call for money, you know, and one wanting to not, there was never, very, very quickly it got to the realization that you don't have to hand over cash, but it was like, you know, order groceries and have them delivered or.

Ciara (39:53.422)

Bye.

Chuck/Chris (39:53.684)

I can imagine, yeah, you spoke of that quite a bit, Lisa, right? The different, you know, and the frustrating part that comes from that. Go ahead.

Lisa (40:19.939)

you know, pay for a night for someone to sleep or those kinds of things. And then, you know, I had one parent who felt that was a good thing to do and then I had another parent who said, if we don't do that, will that get them to a place of desperation that will get them to a place of asking for help? And, you know, and again, and both of them, think realizing that they didn't, neither of them knew what the right answer was, you know.

And so just having those different opinions, knowing that there is no answer, you know, it's not like, okay, we don't agree. Let's call the person who knows. It's like, because no one knows, you know.

Ciara (41:02.658)

Yeah, and I totally agree. And I think, you know, it's impossible to parent through this journey without tension in your relationship because there is no right answer. Like whether it's anger, whether it's over compassionate, like there's. It's just that there's no logic when you're. Parenting that journey, so for obvious reasons, it does cause tension, you know, and sometimes a lot.

Chuck/Chris (41:02.838)

That's well said.

Tony (41:32.031)

And then you have the family dynamics where you have other children that are seeing a different side to that. Why is that changing here? It's powerful when you reflect on it. What damage have I done there?

Chuck/Chris (41:47.548)

SUD is a nuclear bomb. really is, right? It just, everything around it, everything around it. Do you now, go ahead.

Tony (41:49.962)

Mm

Lisa (41:53.229)

And Tony, did you find as a parent, and this is not so much just as a dad, but as a parent, did you ever feel that you were so focused on your child who was struggling?

You weren't focusing on your other kids?

Tony (42:09.15)

Yeah, yeah, the attention was taken off of them. Yeah, and that hurts. Yeah. I did find that.

Lisa (42:14.199)

Yep. Yep.

Chuck/Chris (42:20.886)

Do you find yourself, go ahead, sorry, I'll let you finish.

Tony (42:21.023)

Beep beep.

Tony (42:24.564)

But it's too late when you reflect, you know, until you go to your treatment and you do your step work, you do your four, you do your five, and then you realize how many people have I affected by my reactions to everything. And take a good look at yourself and then try to change.

Ciara (42:41.816)

Yeah, that makes the family component of AARC difficult for a lot of parents because, you know, it's, it's different than other programs in that way that, you know, parents do have to look at their part of the journey. And, you know, we know we're also educated that, you know, we didn't cause it. We can't cure it. You can't control it. Like that's a very big part of every parent conversation in AARC, but also look at your part.

And that is very, very difficult. That's why, you know, sometimes, families are not willing to do that. you know, it, can sabotage the journey of the youth, but it's, it's definitely a big piece of what has to happen in order to support in a, different way post -treatment.

Chuck/Chris (43:31.078)

I think that's...

The most amazing thing about AARC is that the whole family, mean, yeah, it has to happen for everybody to move forward and to do better. Weird curiosity here, Tony. I mean, we're sitting here with Lisa, who's a sibling and whose work quite often revolves around addiction. Ciara obviously your work revolves around addiction. Tony, in your professional life, are you open about your journey or is it something that...

you kind of keep close to the chest as a lot of people do. And if you are open about it, you find yourself wanting to be there for when other people might be experiencing similar things? Because we're in a day and age where you know some of your coworkers are going through exactly what you've gone through, right? Because the odds being what they are, mean, the epidemic.

Tony (44:23.595)

Yeah, yeah I am. have an open mind now going into work. When I'm talking to the crew, I'm thinking about, okay, I've got stuff going on. These guys must have stuff going on. We all have stuff going on. And I do talk about it. I do talk. I, you know, I go into work sometimes wearing my AARC t -shirt. One guy said me one day, I was was that the dog program and I said, no, that's a, it's a early adolescent recovery center, you know, to help teenage youth that are struggling with substance abuse. And then he opened up about his mother.

His mother passed away since, but he's 17 this guy, he's a lad, he's an apprentice. And he was talking about everything. He just opened up and it's to spread that word and then for him to come back out feeling so good about it, being able to talk as he would normally talk. Because there's not many people that approach this subject.

Chuck/Chris (45:14.996)

I have to say the more I listen to you talk, Tony, both pre -recorded now, the more I admire you. I do. Yeah. I think what you've done and what you've gone through and what you're doing is absolutely amazing. For men, it's just so much less common to be open and vulnerable about things like that. And I think it's important. It's hugely important for you to be setting an example like that, especially with younger people.

Tony (45:20.365)

Thank you.

Lisa (45:20.493)

Mm

Tony (45:42.379)

Yeah, not just with younger people. People know my story. And I've always said, approach me if you need to. I'll help you, it helps me out too. It's a two way street.

Chuck/Chris (45:43.924)

Yeah, hats off to you for that.

Chuck/Chris (45:57.046)

Yeah. Service is one of the, you know, like we mentioned earlier, it's one of the fundamentals to a 12 -step program is to be of service. And from the sounds of it, you're most certainly doing that, you know, so, yeah.

Tony (46:00.06)

Yeah.

Tony (46:09.933)

That's right.

Lisa (46:11.085)

You know, it makes me think and for some, you know, there's always these moments that stick with us, right? Like something somebody has said to us or whatever. And I remember years ago, I was at work. I was actually in the emerge doing site consults and a nurse there who knew about my brother's situation was like, hey, like, how's your brother doing? And then there was another nurse in the room who didn't know this. And so was overhearing this conversation. And

I don't remember her exact words, but she actually asked me. She's like, are you not embarrassed to talk about this?

Lisa (46:49.403)

And it just, know, Tony, hearing you say, no, like, this is the, you know, this is not AARC the dog place, you know, this is a recovery program. I feel like the more that we are open and the more that we talk about this freely, without shame, the more that we beat that down, you know what I mean? Luckily, I was able to look at her and be like, why would I be embarrassed to talk about this? Like, that's the most ridiculous question I've ever heard.

Like there's nothing to be embarrassed about, you know? But again, I this was like a health professional working in an emergency department, honestly, in psych emerge, like not just emerge, but psych emerge, you know? And it's just like, you know, so I just love that everywhere, like I work in a hospital where I probably see more of it, but it's like everywhere we are.

I feel like the more people can be open and share and talk about it and normalize it, the more and more people will be comfortable to share their stories, to reach out, to ask for help.

Ciara (47:57.506)

Yeah, and the easier it becomes to ask for treatment. And what do I do now? That's yeah, that's having and that's.

Chuck/Chris (48:02.358)

Yes, yes, yes, right. Well, and we know with your journey, Ciara getting to a place where you even knew about a place like AARC was a long, horrific, if I can use such a word, right, you know, process to get to that point, right? I mean, you've spoken openly about your story in the past, but even getting to that point in 20 years as well, it just shouldn't be that hard. It shouldn't be that hard to hear about something like AARC.

Lisa (48:04.393)

Absolutely.

Ciara (48:12.889)

Mm

Chuck/Chris (48:32.81)

Right, it shouldn't be, it doesn't need to be the last house on the block. And I think if we can keep trying to change that. That said, go ahead. No, don't be, yeah.

Ciara (48:34.041)

Yeah.

Ciara (48:40.932)

Yeah. And I think just that, sorry, Chris, that analogy that Lisa just provided there is exactly why these platforms are important. Is that if somebody is asking for help, there should not be a barrier. Like there is, let's just make things very black and white here. AARC is around for 32 years. It's research back. There's been many research projects done on AARC. But yet there are families on this journey.

And the majority of them, I mean, we were at that national overdose, international overdose awareness day event yesterday. And there were so many people that I spoke to yesterday from different organizations who are already connected with many, families on this journey who hadn't heard of us. And that's the importance of having a booth and raising awareness and having parents at a booth who have been on that journey and know what it's like to have access treatment at different levels. And still.

find themselves in the cycle. And it just, it just feels off to me that there is like research backed treatment established over 30 years ago. That should be out there in the community. That should be, it should not be a journey to access treatment at that level. If you need it, it should be handed to you on a silver platter. And that's why we do this. Yeah.

Chuck/Chris (49:56.604)

It certainly shouldn't be the best kept secret, you know. Absolutely.

Lisa (50:03.235)

Totally.

Tony (50:03.504)

I don't think anybody has an understanding unless they go through it. for men, we're meant to be the alpha of the family. That's our mindset, so to speak. Protect, provide, fix. But us men too, it's okay not to be okay. I have my ups and downs still, but I know how to get through it. I know who to talk to, I know who my people are. And that's why we need to spread that awareness about the support that's out there, not just for the siblings.

Ciara (50:07.885)

Right.

Chuck/Chris (50:21.962)

Yeah it is.

Tony (50:32.514)

Not just for the children of the family that are suffering from substance abuse. It's about your own well -being too. Like it's torture as a parent unless you understand it or connect.

Lisa (50:46.463)

And Tony, do you feel like there's something you could share in terms of, know, like have you gotten to a place where you're able to show yourself some grace, you know, about the, all the, all the clarity that comes with hindsight, the fact that again, you know, there is probably still ingrained in you this idea that you're the alpha male who's supposed to be protecting your kid and, you know, and your kid ended up in a terrible situation.

Like what have you learned that's kind of enabled you to offer yourself some grace?

Tony (51:22.194)

It's a work in progress. It's one day at a time, Lisa. You know, how can I put this in words? It's not easy. You know, I'm not saying I'm 100 % AARC, because my AARC, all life's perfect now. It has its ups and downs, but I got to work on myself. You know, I had to change myself, my views while went through AARC. That was the whole understanding and the concept of the 12 steps.

That's what carries me true because I still do my work every morning. I read my book, know, do my things, you know, just to get through and see what's up for the day. We're just going to live today and anything can happen tomorrow. You don't want to go there. You don't want to think about yesterday. You're just living in the moment from now on. It's totally different approach to how you view your life and how you view others. When you wake up in the morning, you go to work and you say to yourself, I'm going to talk to people. But they have a lot of stuff going on too. So you take different approach in the way you talk to people.

Chuck/Chris (52:20.288)

kidding, no kidding. As we get to the top of the hour, one or two more questions I want to ask you here, Tony. Your experience being what it is, in having certainly a different lens to look at things than a lot of people do, and a lot of that being due to some of the success of the program at AARC, are there any additional resources or systems that you wish had been available and that

Ciara (52:21.506)

Yeah.

Chuck/Chris (52:47.582)

are becoming available or are available now to parents that are in similar circumstance.

Tony (52:53.241)

I just wish the awareness was out there like cancer, you know, everybody knows about cancer. I wish the awareness was out there about addiction. You know, it's got to be, the word has to be spread and it's platforms like yours Chris that help this, you know, and we got to get it out there more. Thank you for what you do.

Chuck/Chris (53:14.238)

Absolutely, absolutely. Right. As far as your son now, what are your hopes, dreams for him?

Tony (53:22.106)

Well, expectations could mean a lot of things, but they're not so much anymore. You know, I just hope that he has a comfortable, good life. You know, I'm wishing the best and supporting in any way I can. Yeah. Just give him, just give him all my support. That's it. Love.

Chuck/Chris (53:25.726)

Yeah.

Chuck/Chris (53:34.304)

Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck/Chris (53:39.414)

No kidding, eh? I'm kidding. Before we get into daily gratitudes, Lisa, is there anything you want to offer? Anything you have to say or ask?

Lisa (53:48.557)

Just when Tony said that, you know, I think when you go through this kind of journey where you literally fear that you are going to lose that person, what matters becomes real clear, you know, and suddenly it's not, well, I hope they do this degree or that degree, or I hope that they, you know, make this much money or that, like, you literally are just, I just want them to feel content. Like, that's what I've always said to my brother. I just,

pray that he has peace in his soul. You know, that he, like I remember getting messages during periods of recovery where he was like, I'm sitting, watching the sunrise, drinking a hot cup of coffee, and it feels so good. And like, that's all I wish for, for him at this point, you know, is just that, just to feel at peace. And it, you know, it's so simple. But when you see someone suffer in the grips of addiction,

There's no peace.

Tony (54:50.299)

Yeah, I feel the same way. I just want him to have a peaceful, joyful life and enjoy life. Yeah.

Lisa (54:51.307)

You

Chuck/Chris (54:57.994)

Yeah, Ciara is there any final thoughts before we move into Gratitudes?

Tony (54:59.656)

I was past Tico.

Ciara (55:03.78)

Yeah, like this is, this is quite an emotional conversation, you know, and, you know, rather than share the ins and outs of the journey, I can just relate to what Lisa is saying, because, you know, to watch your loved one just sit in that loneliness without connection is just, it's so hard because without those connections, life is, it's going to be tough.

Right. I just.

That's what the community of AARC provides and the way the model is built and that unique component of the recovery homes and connecting with other families. Like there are so many families invested in the success of not only the kids that go through AARC, but the families as well. And just providing that connection on a different level. Like it's the majority of families coming in.

are all dealing with a level of loneliness. Most of all, the kid, but that loneliness, you know, like we said earlier, those conversations that are not happening, like that vulnerability that's not there, it has to have a place to go in order to set up the family and the client or youth for success. Very, very important pieces of the whole journey.

Chuck/Chris (56:09.014)

That's not that.

Chuck/Chris (56:25.462)

sure does. It sure does. Absolutely.

Yeah, speaking to the connection and it's a little bit off topic, but not really. If I could go back and I guess I'm the, well, that's crazy. I'm the only panelist that has been an addict or is an addict, however you want to phrase that. So that's, don't know if that's ever happened to be the only person. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So if I could go back in some weird

Lisa (56:51.743)

is a person who has suffered with substance use disorder.

Ciara (56:54.244)

who has struggled here.

Chuck/Chris (57:00.374)

crazy universe where it was possible and pick the kind of suffering hands down, not feeling loved, not feeling lovable, not being connected to people would be my last choice. I would be homeless. I would be cold. I would be tired. I would be hungry long before I ever chose to be not connected and not to feel loved. Right? So it's unbelievably like that is

It's the worst suffering I have been through by a long shot, by a very long shot. The other stuff you can fix, right? You can fix, you can go get a bite to eat. You can find a place to stay, but when you don't feel loved, it's a brutal, brutal thing to feel.

Ciara (57:52.792)

Yeah, and a very, very difficult thing. I hear you, Chris, a very difficult thing as a parent to know that that's how your child is feeling. And you can't take that away.

Chuck/Chris (57:53.791)

Anyway.

Chuck/Chris (58:04.308)

No, you can't. can't. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ciara (58:05.164)

With treatments, you can help, but it's...

Yep. Ooh, Chris.

Chuck/Chris (58:12.424)

fuck. Anyway, let's bring this back to where we need to be when we get into those head spaces. And that's my favorite part of the show. That is the daily gratitudes. Ciara we'll start with you. What are you grateful for today? No more than two. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. We're joking. Pre -record.

Lisa (58:14.388)

You even got Ciara!

Ciara (58:19.214)

Yeah.

Ciara (58:30.532)

Sure. I've, I've, I have, yeah, and I have thought about this a lot today and, and, know, given the context of what we're talking about and how, how important those small pieces of gratitude are. So I want to, recognize two people today.

Ciara (58:55.63)

First Lady, she reached out to me a number of weeks ago. She's based in Airdrie. And I was connected with her, like I said, a number of weeks ago. She's a mom who has lost her son. And she was organizing an overdose awareness day event in Airdrie for today. There's a representation from AARC there. Because we were recording this episode.

but I have so much gratitude for her. She sent me an email, asked me if we would be interested in attending the event, having a booth there. And next thing I get this poster, this digital poster, you know, on it is, you know, motorcycle rally, all proceeds will be donated to the Alberta Adolescent Recovery Center. Now that wasn't even a conversation that happened between her and me. And it just, the gratitude that I felt for that just blew me away.

This mom is dealing with something that no parent should have to deal with or that there's nothing worse, right? Than losing a kid. And that's how she is choosing to spend her time this weekend is raising awareness about AARC. I just. I'm beyond grateful for that message and the second person and I won't share details, but a second person that I'm very grateful for.

Chuck/Chris (59:54.048)

amazing.

Chuck/Chris (01:00:10.72)

amazing.

Ciara (01:00:23.268)

this week and you know, since I've really started working at AARC is a work colleague. I've worked with her for almost, well, over 18 months now. She's the director of fund development and events at AARC. She's worked there for 10 years. And you know, we often say in the business of nonprofits that, you know, recognition doesn't come easy.

And I want to recognize this lady because she has given everything to AARC for 10 years and now she is stepping down from her position. And just personally, I am very, very grateful to her for now I see behind the scenes what it has taken to keep an organization like AARC keep the doors open and the heavy need for fun development and how much

organization and planning goes into the incredible events that AARC hosts on an annual basis. And, you know, I just, for me having gratitude for her today, I believe represents gratitude for the whole parent community at AARC, because it is not an easy job to...

keep going at AARC. It's an intense environment and everybody who works there is doing very important work. So I just want to share my gratitude for the team behind the scenes at AARC that have kept the doors open for families like ours who can access that treatment when there's not a lot of hope.

Chuck/Chris (01:01:53.791)

Thank

Chuck/Chris (01:02:01.822)

Yeah, It's a great, great couple of gratitude Ciara Tony, what are you, what are you grateful for today?

Tony (01:02:12.024)

There's a phrase out there at the moment called compassionate intervention. I think that term should be coined by Dr. Dean Vause I think that man is an incredible man for what he's given to youth and families. And I'm grateful for him entering my life and helping me and my family and all the other families. And I'm grateful for AARC and the community of AARC. And if I can only say something about Dr. Vause he's the Oscar Schindler to youth addiction.

I'm Greg Fultz from the Megan.

Chuck/Chris (01:02:45.718)

Wow, wow, it's heavy. Lisa, what are you grateful for today?

Lisa (01:02:53.021)

so we, well, I lost somebody that I love dearly to an overdose a few months ago. So overdose awareness day hits differently this year, you know? so I find I'm still in this stage of, of feeling angry and days like this, I find it harder to be grateful. but I'm also incredibly grateful that

my loved one is still here, recognizing over so many years how highly likely it would be that he wouldn't be with us anymore. So I feel incredibly grateful for that. And Tony, I'm grateful for you. Like we haven't had a lot of dads come on. You know, like I said, I can see a lot of parallel in sort of

feelings and approaches and, you know, that sort of thing in my own family with my own dad. And I, I just commend you for coming on and talking and sharing and because I think that men, dads, brothers, whoever, you know, they're out there suffering just as much as the moms and the sisters. But I think they have a harder time reaching out and a harder time sharing and showing vulnerability and, and

and building what they need, probably with other like -minded men, to feel support. And I think the only way that's going to change is for people to do exactly what you're doing by coming on here and putting your face to this and sort of sharing your story. And so, yeah, I just am grateful that you're here. I feel like we could talk for hours, so maybe you'll have to come on again.

but I'm very grateful that you did this.

Chuck/Chris (01:04:48.182)

Absolutely.

Tony (01:04:50.073)

Thank you.

Chuck/Chris (01:04:53.384)

I'm gonna, in the interest of time, I'm gonna echo Lisa's gratitude to yourself, Tony. So very rare do we get a father on, and so very powerful. And like I said mid -episode, the more I listen to you talk, the more I admire you. So thank you. Thank you for what you're doing, what you've been through, and what you're gonna continue to do in your life. I think it's amazing. Another gratitude I have for today is, I've said this before, but,

Tony (01:05:09.275)

Thank you.

Chuck/Chris (01:05:25.258)

the partnerships I have with AARC with FAR, with Yatra, like the financial sponsorship of the show. And this is not about money, folks. This is not about money at all. However, I was thinking about it as I was driving along in that I am able to do the thing I am most passionate about because of those partnerships. And, you know, I had to move to Thailand so I could afford to do it full time. and but I can I can do it full time. And if you love what you do,

You've won, right? And I can only do that because of those partnerships. And I am so very, very grateful for that. And as I think about it on days like today, Overdose Awareness Day, I'm just, I get to do this. I get to help bring awareness to something that I care so much about. And so thank you. And I'll say to you, Ciara but to all of our sponsors, right? It's an amazing thing. I'm also grateful to every single person.

who continues to like, watch, comment, share, talk about, listen, whatever, hit all the buttons down at the bottom. So every time you do these things, you're getting me a little bit closer to living my best life. My best life is to continue making humble living, spreading the message. And the message is this. If you're an active addiction right now, today could be the day. Today could be the day that you start a lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call into detox, go to a meeting, pray, go to church. I don't care.

Do whatever it is you have to do to get that journey started, because it is so much better than the alternative. If you have a loved one who's suffering an addiction right now, you should take the time to listen to this incredible conversation. If you just take one more minute out of your day and message that person, let them know they are loved. Use the words.

Ciara (01:07:06.402)

You are loved.

Lisa (01:07:06.849)

You are loved.

Chuck/Chris (01:07:09.766)

The little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings him back.