192 - WEEKEND RAMBLE- ANGIE HAMILTON

Chuck (00:01.649)
Hello everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds. Welcome to another episode of The Weekend Ramble on the Ashes to Awesome podcast. I'm your host Chuck LaFlange and with me in Virtual Studio are my two lovely co-hosts. How you doing today, Atika?

Atika (00:12.935)
I'm great, I have my uppers What about you?

Chuck (00:17.935)
Good stuff, good stuff, good stuff. And Dr. Lisa, how are we doing today in Calgary?

Lisa (00:23.74)
I am doing great. It's beautiful and sunny and it's mid-November so I'm good.

Chuck (00:29.653)
Ah, nice, nice. We sit, see when I was young in Calgary, we had a totally politically, I'm sure, incorrect term for that. We called it an Indian summer, right? Yeah, right, yeah, right. I don't think they say it anymore because it wouldn't be politically correct, but you know, quite often I'm not anyway, so maybe I'll keep saying it. I don't have to, I'm in Thailand, it's always summer here. Um, and with us is a special guest, somebody I've been waiting months to have on the show.

Lisa (00:38.932)
Yeah, I remember that term. Yeah. Yep.

Lisa (00:44.868)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (00:50.947)
Yeah

Chuck (00:58.657)
Dr. Angie Hamilton from FAR Canada. That's Families Against Addiction Recovery, or Against Families For Addiction Recovery. Not against. Waiting months to screw up the intro. That's what I've been doing apparently, right? So anyway. And she is in California right now. How you doing today, Angie?

Lisa (01:14.905)
Hahaha

angie (01:14.926)
I'm gonna go to bed.

Atika (01:16.111)
What?

angie (01:21.862)
Great. I just have to clarify, I am not in fact a doctor. I'm a retired lawyer. Yeah.

Chuck (01:27.677)
How come I thought you were, this whole time, I thought you were a doctor? Okay. So months to screw up the intro just completely, right? Oh my Lord, okay, okay.

angie (01:32.143)
I don't know.

angie (01:36.775)
No, it's not. My name is in fact Auntie Hamilton and I am with Families for Addiction Recovery. Or FAR. So it's easier to say FAR. Yeah.

Chuck (01:42.445)
Okay, okay. Far. It really is. It really is. Yeah. Okay. My apologies. Okay. Yes. I you know, I, I like lawyers, not as much as doctors though. Angie, I gotta say. No, I'm just kidding. Hey, with my past, I've been a pretty big fan of lawyers. Like, who am I kidding right now? And more so than doctors either. Jesus with my history right now. I get. Um, you know what, I want to jump right into this and well, actually, no first

angie (01:48.874)
No worries.

angie (01:54.062)
I'm retired, I'm retired.

Atika (01:54.907)
Hehehe

angie (02:00.16)
it.

Lisa (02:01.017)
Hehehe

angie (02:03.79)
I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.

Chuck (02:10.821)
First, let's talk about what FAR is. If you wanna give us a picture, yeah.

angie (02:13.598)
Okay, so yeah, sure. FAR is a Canadian registered charity that came to be in 2016. And I'm a co-founder and it was founded by parents who had children who struggled with addiction from an early age, like early teens. And it was formed because the needs of our families aren't being met. And we're active really in three areas. We educate about...

you know, substance use disorders in general, what they are, what they aren't. We advocate for the changes that we would like to see happen. And I would say just really briefly, our number one thing is compassionate evidence-based treatment on demand. The other things we think we need are, you know, protective health laws and protective drug policies. We can get into that later. And the part that we do that I enjoy the most is we provide

We have three support services to families and family caregivers of those who are struggling with addiction. We have three services. The most popular is our peer-to-peer support where people get one hour sessions for like eight weeks in a row with a volunteer who is matched as much as possible to what their circumstances are.

We also have a free support line Monday to Friday, certain hours. And we have family free, friendly group supports and all of our peers have been trained in something called the motivation to change approach from the Foundation for Motivation and Change in New York. It's basically a non-confrontational compassionate model based on craft and motivational interviewing and act.

which is acceptance and commitment therapy.

Chuck (04:07.601)
Wow. So there's a few elements there that I didn't realize. I'm glad, I'm more happy to have you on now than I was before you came on. So that's a lot, that's a lot that you're doing. There's a lot to speak to there, right? Geez. And of course, for us, Angie, we've been talking now for a few months. One of the big focuses of our show is on the families. Like there's a huge focus of our show is on the families and even more so sometimes in the people who are suffering.

Lisa (04:15.928)
Thank you.

angie (04:18.37)
Good!

Good luck.

Yep.

Chuck (04:38.585)
Because I believe your stereotypical person with SUD isn't tuning into a podcast, but their families are, right? And I feel that if we can help the families to understand and to cope, by extension we're helping those people that are suffering an addiction, right?

angie (04:54.462)
Absolutely. Oh, well, in fact, the research is pretty clear that if you support the families, it improves outcomes of people with it.

Chuck (05:02.001)
Right, right, so, yeah, yeah. So linking people up. Well, actually somebody that I put you in touch with some time ago, Tammy, what's her last name? Somebody help me, Tammy, oh, Preston, right? Yeah, yeah, she actually still contributes a blog to the website and some powerful, powerful words come from her, right? And you know, and she still does have a kid, an adult kid who's still in it in a really, you know, big way, so, yeah.

angie (05:12.589)
Yes.

And a hoot me.

angie (05:19.598)
Great. Yeah.

Lisa (05:29.744)
Can I ask, Angie, can I ask you a question? So, like, early days for my family, needing support would have been back around 2002, 2003. And you know what we were encouraged to do was to go to Al-Anon. I've spoken about my personal experience with that.

angie (05:32.82)
Mm-hmm.

angie (05:49.143)
Right.

Lisa (05:58.072)
I went to a meeting while my brother was two floors up in detox and my phone rang and everybody looked and said, like, if it's him, don't answer, don't answer. And I left and never went back. But I'm curious, you know, because obviously Al-Anon was around before FAR and there's the advocacy.

role that FAR is playing or is trying to play. But in terms of the peer support, family support, did you feel that there was just more need than Al-Anon could provide or does FAR specifically approach it differently than Al-Anon or like what was the thought around that?

angie (06:46.602)
That's a great question. I haven't thought about this in years. But yeah, like if Al-Anon, if we thought Al-Anon did everything, then we probably wouldn't be doing the peer support, right? So that said, I went to Al-Anon for years. And I actually found a group when we were in California, that helped more than others because it was specifically for parents.

Lisa (06:52.269)
I'm gonna go.

Lisa (07:00.924)
Thank you.

angie (07:15.586)
The other ones were more for spouses and that makes a big difference. Yeah, it makes a huge difference. Like you're not walking away from your kids. So, but I would say that the, and I firmly believe in the three C's, you didn't cause it, you can't control it and you can't cure it. I think that's sort of like gold. So I think there's a lot of good in Elanon.

Chuck (07:19.817)
It's a huge difference of dynamic there, right? Yeah, yeah.

Lisa (07:20.165)
Mm-hmm.

angie (07:43.574)
but it depends on the group that you go to and there are limitations. And for me personally, like after, well, a couple of things. One, I don't have a lot of time and it reminded me of church. I'm a recovering Catholic. And so, you know how like certain things are always the same. So they would read the 10 steps and the, you know, there are 12 steps, oh my God, the 12 steps. And, you know, there was like,

that were just sort of like the same every week. And then there'd be like the good part, which is like the homily in church, you know, where they, it's different from the last week. And then people could make comments, but there was no, what they call cross talk. So, you know, you couldn't like give advice to someone or, you know, like advice, like.

Chuck (08:30.025)
Right. Yeah.

angie (08:36.362)
you know, I found this work for me or this didn't work for me or you might want to think about, right? Like not telling a person what to do and, you know, we're not an expert, but this is our experience, sharing your lived experience to address a point that someone raised. And I was looking for crosstalk. I wanted the crosstalk. I wanted to know what, you know, other people thought and what worked for them and what didn't work for them and all of that.

Lisa (08:54.629)
Mm-hmm.

angie (09:00.274)
And so there was that initially, but then what happened really is I read the book, Beyond Addiction, How Science and Kindness Helps People Change, which was by the Center for Motivation and Change in the States. And it was just like an eye-opener. There were a couple of concepts there that I really hadn't heard before that won't be a surprise to any of you, but for example, like ambivalence, you know, like, um,

Chuck (09:23.545)
Explain what you mean when you say ambivalence in this context, please.

angie (09:26.886)
Yeah, so it's hard for families when we can see the harms that substances are causing our loved ones and they don't see seem to see those harms, right? And then what happens is there's fear and that often gets expressed as anger. So ambivalence is like there, it really helps to understand what they what they teach you is behaviors make sense.

So families look at this and go, this is crazy, you're killing yourself. Can't you see that? That's this behavior does not make sense. But in fact, if you look at it from your loved one's perspective, it absolutely makes sense, especially in the beginning, right? Because in the beginning, there can be a lot of benefits to substances. You know, you can numb out, you know, it makes you more relaxed. It can feel better in terms of depression, anxiety.

There's a lot that the drugs initially in any event can do for you. And for people who don't develop a problem, that just continues. But for people with a problem, it doesn't just continue. So you can't relate to your loved one if you can't really put yourself in their shoes. Like, why are they doing this? What are they getting out of it? Ask the question. Don't assume anything like, oh my God, the assumptions, assumptions will kill you. Like,

Lisa (10:48.412)
Thank you.

angie (10:53.946)
I can hear my son say, you know, when you assume you make an ass out of you and me, because like the spelling of assume, right? And it's so true. So the concept of ambivalence, that people use drugs for a reason, that they're not in fact, you know, acting irrationally, you know, is very helpful. It's very helpful to families to understand that.

Lisa (11:01.19)
Yeah.

Chuck (11:02.003)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lisa (11:17.701)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (11:23.033)
I've never even, I've tried to word it a thousand different ways, Ange. And even without like breaking it down and really helping them understand why, just that whole concept, the way you've worded it now is like, okay, I have a different way to speak to this when I get to so many messages that I do these days from loved ones, right? So that's awesome. That's awesome. And I kind of cut you, go ahead. Yep, go ahead.

Lisa (11:38.289)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (11:44.948)
Mm hmm. And it ties, it ties in a lot right with what I mean, I think with what we talked about on the show. And Angie, I don't know if you've ever had a chance to watch any of the Wednesday episodes. So on Wednesdays, every week on this podcast, we have Ryan Bathgate come on and he's a therapist. He does a lot of you know, non substance using therapy, but then he also does work at a recovery center working with people. And he always talks about that

you know, explore the why, right? For the majority of people, there's mental illness, there's trauma, there's something that is driving that early use, right? It's not random, you know?

angie (12:27.555)
Right.

Chuck (12:27.566)
Seek to understand not to be understood, right? It's the moment you do that, right? And I think that kind of speaks to what you're saying right now, Ant, right? So, yeah, yeah. And I kind of cut you off there. You had gone off and you were talking about two different things and I stopped you at ambivalence and then you said there was.

Lisa (12:30.046)
Mm hmm. Yeah.

angie (12:35.086)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah, yeah. So.

Lisa (12:35.612)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

angie (12:44.11)
Uh, well, I, well, why we created foreign and AA and so we're big on advocacy, right? Um, uh, nothing's going to change and everything needs to change. And if families are quiet and people who are struggling or people in recovery are quiet, our people are just going to continue to die. So, um, yeah, that, that anonymity like, um,

Chuck (12:50.193)
Yeah.

Lisa (12:58.597)
Mm-hmm.

angie (13:12.714)
you know, for me, like, I don't care who knows that I have a loved one who struggles with addiction. Like I have something to say. I'm going to keep saying it until somebody hears the message who, who can do something about it and is willing to do something about it.

Chuck (13:22.545)
Right, right.

Chuck (13:30.005)
That's a curious thing. Just recently, really, it's that second A that has been bothering me in the 12 steps. Right, and it's funny that you just, you chose the word anonymity. Where it's kind of hit me is, especially south of the border in the United States, there's kind of this push about, well, if you're a member, you're not supposed to speak to it because it's Alcoholics Anonymous, and okay, but you are supposed to speak to it because that's, we share the message, that's what we do. Right, and I say we, I'm not a 12-step.

That second is to protect the privacy of those around you who wish to have their privacy not to protect yourself Right if I choose to if I choose to recover out loud and I choose to shout it from the rooftops and I Cherish and I choose to tell everybody that I'm a 12-stepper. That's how you get the message out That's how you help people so shut up about it You know, yeah, right. So it's been a kind of a frustrating thing for me lately. Go ahead Lisa

angie (14:04.447)
Right.

angie (14:08.639)
Right.

angie (14:13.682)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lisa (14:18.713)
End this.

Lisa (14:22.32)
Sorry to cut you off. I find it interesting Angie, like in the work I do, how families don't realize or appreciate the power that they have. That's my experience. Like even, you know, Chuck, without naming names obviously, but you know, there's been two different occasions in the past, what, few months where, you know, Chuck has known somebody personally in Calgary who needed help. And

Chuck (14:23.601)
Not at all.

Lisa (14:51.54)
a lot of the advice has centered around what the families can do to advocate, to demand, to push, to expect more. And I find, and it's interesting because I don't know if it's entirely stigma that does it, if it's shame. But I feel like maybe, yeah, you know, I don't think in the cases, you know, in

Chuck (14:57.273)
Yes, 100%.

Chuck (15:10.905)
apathy even at some point, right? You know, yeah.

Lisa (15:16.804)
the specific cases we've talked about recently, but yeah, probably at some point people give up or they think there's no hope or whatever it is. But I'm like, you know, scream from the hilltops, you know, because I think the more noise you make and you shouldn't have to, but I think sometimes you do. And I think that if you demand and you advocate and you scream, you know, you can get more support.

angie (15:39.476)
Oh.

Lisa (15:45.572)
But a lot of times families don't. And I'm talking specifically from a hospital perspective, I guess, you know.

Chuck (15:53.721)
Yeah, and so I'll give that some context if you don't mind, Lisa. So most recently right now is a case we're focusing on. And I've said her first name online now, Heather, so I can say that. And obviously I respect her anonymity. Heather's family and I have been close for a better part of 30 years. They found her in a car, unresponsive, soil herself.

Lisa (15:57.584)
You know?

Chuck (16:19.153)
just in a really bad shape, you know, cold blue green or blue gray color, had her rushed off to the Sheldon Schumer Center. And now it's this battle, now it's got even more complicated, but it's this, you have to keep her there. You can't let her go. You have to keep her there. And of course, four hours after she was admitted, she was discharged because she didn't wanna stay, right? After getting going there in that type of shape, if you can imagine, like what? You know, and...

There's a hiccup somewhere in the system that shouldn't have happened. Well, I don't know that there was a hiccup. They told her family the next day that she hadn't been admitted there. So if you can imagine the raw panic, after telling her family to go home, we got this, come back tomorrow, we'll look at how to handle this. So her mom calls back the next day, well, we've never had anybody here admitted by that. What are you talking about? So mom goes into raw panic, just like, and her aunt, who is my direct contact, go into crazy panic mode, call every hospital in Calgary. No, nobody here by that name, nobody here by.

angie (16:59.648)
Oh yeah.

Chuck (17:16.189)
Can you just imagine how that must have like, oh my.

angie (17:19.166)
Yeah, because we deal with parents in that situation all the time. Like it's almost a stereotype that they finally get them into the hospital and the parents are there saying, you know, please don't discharge them. And if you do discharge them, like make sure we can get here. Right. So you discharge them to us. I mean, it's a stereotype that just never happens.

Chuck (17:23.867)
Right?

angie (17:48.674)
They just, like, they let them go and they never call the family. They just, I mean, some of the story I've heard, like, one gentleman walked home from the hospital in winter in Ontario with no shoes. 8K. Right? There's also something about shoes. Once my son came home, I just find it hilarious because he went in with those

Chuck (17:49.565)
It's stigma based, I think we can all agree on that.

Chuck (18:11.409)
Lucky to have his feet when he gets home.

angie (18:17.986)
Tie-tied, really expensive shoes which disappeared in the hospital and he came home and I'm sure some 80 year olds Wallabies, so there's something that happens to the shoes. It's like socks and dryers. I don't know shoes in hospitals. They just disappear But there you go, you know Yeah So I know but it is funny You got it. You got it You got to get the humor where you can because the whole situation is of course completely unacceptable, right?

Chuck (18:32.242)
Ha ha ha!

Chuck (18:39.341)
That's funny.

Lisa (18:44.39)
Yeah.

angie (18:48.06)
And, you know...

Chuck (18:48.309)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've spoken to that a few times. The bar moves. After you've lived it, like my particular lived experience or your particular, any one of us here, the bar has moved now. Things that we find kind of oddly funny so maybe some other people wouldn't, but if you can't laugh after all the crap, then, right. Yeah, yeah, it sure does, it sure does.

angie (18:52.055)
Yeah.

Lisa (19:01.368)
Mm-hmm.

angie (19:01.91)
Yeah, yeah. Yes, it's important, it helps. It helps if you can find the humor.

Atika (19:09.067)
And you can see like throughout the years, your humor, or at least mine, got darker and darker and darker.

angie (19:16.318)
Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah.

Chuck (19:17.429)
Right, which is a rabbit hole unto itself, and I think we have to be careful about that, because at some point, at some point, there's something there within yourself that you have to address, right? Like, why is this, you know, I mean, what? But I know exactly what you mean, Atika. I've got some weird shit I find funny now, compared to, you know, compared to 10 years ago, that's for sure, right? But.

Atika (19:21.648)
I'm sorry.

Atika (19:26.629)
Yeah.

angie (19:36.842)
I think we all do.

Chuck (19:38.313)
Right? Well, again, your bar has been moved, right? Once you live through a child who's almost died how many times or could be, you know, who's in the throes of an opiate addiction, who could be dead any day, right? You're constantly in the back of your mind waiting for that phone call or myself who's been through some of the most crazy experiences. Any one of these things, I mean, of course your bar is going to move, right? It has to. We're only human.

All right.

Lisa (20:07.896)
And I think some of the humor is also protective, right? I think it's psychologically protective. I remember being a first-year medical student and I was doing some shadowing at the addiction center here. And I remember we were going into a weekly conference and he pulled me aside and said, like, you need to understand, there's gonna be inappropriate jokes. And the description he said is like,

Chuck (20:11.162)
Oh, yeah.

Lisa (20:36.332)
Of course, this is not funny, but we have to find some humor. Otherwise, this breaks all of us, you know? And so I think some of it is to try to, yeah, just to protect yourself.

Atika (20:44.954)
Yeah.

It's a coping mechanism.

Chuck (20:50.421)
It was pointed out to me, and it's a good point, Atika, just yesterday or the day before in my therapy session with Mike here at the trauma center. Coping mechanism, pretty obvious, right? Hate humor in the biggest way. And that's a part of my internal family systems, which is something like the latest thing that we've gotten into now, which is crazy good therapy, right? Everything is here though, everything is, right? So, yeah, yeah.

Lisa (21:13.968)
Yeah, for sure.

Chuck (21:16.734)
Yeah, we're going to have a whole episode to talk about each modality by the time I'm out of here. Right? Yeah, yeah, it sure is.

Lisa (21:21.86)
Yeah, yeah, it's good. It's good.

Atika (21:26.119)
Just looking at the comment and there is Chantelle saying that it's a trauma response to high pain a lot of the times for me. I think I'm like that too. I think it's like either so you have to grieve when there's a trauma and but in the given moment when you're facing that trauma, it's you just cope with it with humor and then after that you grieve. At least for me, I grieve.

Chuck (21:29.355)
Oh shit, sorry.

Atika (21:56.12)
Um, so yeah, um, yeah, it's like hiding.

Chuck (22:00.265)
That's a good point, Chantel. And that's Chantel from Trap House Testimony. So we were talking about previously recording her that's jumping in with us now and saying that. And yeah, she's Chantel. I had to make a GIF for Chantel specifically. Say it's my Phoenix going for fuck's sake Chantel. So it's just like for fuck's sake. Says FFS Chantel on it. It was specifically designed for her because some of the crazy crap that comes out of her mouth. Right? But.

Atika (22:07.17)
color.

Lisa (22:19.856)
Ha ha

Chuck (22:27.833)
It all comes from a great place, so she can absolutely relate to the humor. Right. Yeah. Yep.

Lisa (22:32.084)
Yeah. Chuck, I was thinking that it would be really interesting to get Angie's perspective on your meme about rock bottom.

Chuck (22:43.865)
Yeah, let's do that. So I'll just, and we did, behind the curtain, we did speak kind of to it. And that's when we had to hit the record button because I thought we were burning content. So to recap for the audience, I posted a meme a few days back that said, and I'm not gonna do it a direct quote because I won't remember it exactly, but if you have a loved one who's come back from addiction or overcome addiction, after being left at rock bottom, they did that in spite of you, not because of you. So.

Don't let, you know, don't take credit for their strength or something to that effect, right? Or don't let their strength justify your choices. Maybe that's how I said it. Something to that effect. Angie, if we could get your perspective on that, you had some really cool things you were starting to say there before we had to hit record and not burn that content up, so.

angie (23:36.863)
Yeah, so we try to encourage families to stay engaged with their loved ones as much as possible. And we also try to do this without judgment of what's possible for them. So there's no question that the outcomes for our loved ones are better when the family gets support and are engaged, right? And don't walk away. That said...

Chuck (23:52.882)
fun.

angie (24:04.474)
Um, you know, families can also, I mean, can go both ways, but families can suffer abuse. Um, sometimes it is physical, more often it's sort of verbal, sometimes it's financial. Um, and you know, it's, it's important to put boundaries in place to protect your own mental health. And to me, that, that isn't.

really just for you, but it's also for your loved one. And it's saying, you know, I can't handle this right now and I matter as well. And it's also good for them to know that it's not okay to treat people that way, even if they are your family, right? I think all of us, I mean, it's just a sad truth. I think that all of us, well.

Lisa (24:44.452)
Mm.

Chuck (24:49.981)
Yeah.

angie (24:54.454)
we're more comfortable letting family members see the worst of us, more than a stranger, right? Like you'll, you could be at home and having a bad day and everybody's gonna know and then you go out and it's all sunshine and rainbows and unicorns and then you come back home and it's all clouds and thunder and whatever. That's kind of just normal. But it's important for families to look after their own mental health and the mental health of other people in the family, not just the person with substance use disorder.

Chuck (25:00.389)
Without a doubt. Yeah. It's a universal truth.

angie (25:24.446)
And to me that, that is also a good thing for the person with substance use disorder because

If you don't, it's more likely that you're going to walk away if you don't have some boundaries. And sometimes people just need to walk away for a short period of time. It's not hitting, it's not about punishing your loved one or they have to hit rock bottom. It's about, I deserve a good life too. And I can't help you if I'm a mess. And right now I can't handle.

Chuck (25:52.837)
Absolutely.

angie (25:59.798)
the way you're treating me or this situation, you know, whatever it is. And so I need some space and that's a good thing. Boundaries like that are good things.

Chuck (26:09.305)
Absolutely. That old cliche about put your oxygen mask on first, right? If you can't, you're not gonna be able to help that loved one if you're too busy in survival mode yourself, right? So, yeah. Go ahead.

Lisa (26:09.552)
Mm-hmm.

angie (26:15.271)
Exactly.

Lisa (26:15.685)
Mm-hmm.

angie (26:19.242)
Yeah. And it

Lisa (26:22.176)
For me, for me hearing you say I matter too, like just went, like, I was like, whoa, like.

Chuck (26:30.429)
Hmm.

Lisa (26:33.88)
Because when you love someone who's suffering, it's so easy to get lost in that. And that fear, as we know, that it can equal death, makes it very scary to own that you matter to.

Chuck (26:41.577)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (26:52.985)
Yeah. Right. And so that, that kind of, I don't want to say survivor's guilt, but pre-survivors guilt, I don't, I don't know what you would call that. I mean, you'd probably have a better term for that Lisa than I do, but.

Lisa (26:53.948)
You know what I mean? Like, yeah.

angie (26:53.983)
Oh for sure.

angie (26:58.262)
Well, especially for parents.

angie (27:05.858)
Well, parents are supposed to protect their kids. And what I can tell you from what I see and as I get older is that they're always your kids. They might be 50 and you might be 90 or what, 80. They're still your kids, right?

Lisa (27:05.925)
Yeah.

Chuck (27:20.482)
Hey, I'm 46 years old and I'm all about mommy right now. So let me tell you, right? Absolutely, yeah. 46 years old, yeah, indeed.

angie (27:23.682)
There you go, right? So, yeah, yeah.

angie (27:30.359)
Yeah.

Lisa (27:31.984)
So Angie, to be like, to like really put you on the spot, do you agree with the term hit rock bottom? Do you believe, because there are people out there who will say, you gotta let them hit rock bottom, you gotta let them hit rock bottom. It's like this hard statement.

angie (27:35.958)
Ha ha ha.

Chuck (27:36.194)
Oh.

angie (27:44.682)
No, no, especially with the opioid epidemic. I mean, I think everybody can see the rock bottom on often is death. No, I don't agree with that at all. I think, you know, sometimes, okay, sometimes some people lose capacity to look after themselves, right? And I think in those circumstances, it's incumbent on all of us to do our best to protect them.

Chuck (28:06.173)
Mm-hmm.

angie (28:12.65)
And that's where the law comes in and I have great unhappiness about some of our laws. It's not just how they're drafted, but it's also how they're applied. And so I do not agree with just letting them hit rock bottom.

Chuck (28:17.544)
You feel?

Chuck (28:31.545)
No, waiting for rock bottom is waiting for death. That's what it is these days. Unfortunately, that is our new reality, right? It really is, really is. You have to protect yourself, you have to protect your loved ones. And I would never try and take that from somebody. And I think that almost has to come first. Well, it does have to come first. If you've got other family members that you can't bring them into the chaos with you too, because you're trying to, you know, that's not gonna help anybody. But at the end of the day, waiting for rock bottom was waiting for death. And it's, you know, listen, Angie, I've been out of the life now for

almost 13 months, it'll be 13 months in a couple days here. Yeah, thank you, thank you. And I still get phone calls routinely from people, and I've been separating myself from that life, and I still get messages and phone calls routinely about people that I've lost in my small circle, right? If I was still in it, I can't imagine how often that would be happening, right? You've got people now that have been using, at least in Regina, where most of my fuckery happened, sorry for the language.

angie (29:06.915)
What?

home

angie (29:20.311)
Yeah.

Chuck (29:32.369)
Um, it's been about five years now that fentanyl has been like a hardcore street drug there and like really popular anyway. And now we're getting to a point where, you know, between the, the benzos and the tranks that are being added to it, you know, and, and the larger and larger doses people are taking to get high. Well, eventually the dose that gets you high kills you at some point, especially with all this crap cut into it, right? So, um, that that's catching up.

angie (29:55.182)
Mm-hmm. And that, you know, all the people who eventually get into recovery or start to move towards wellness, it is so much harder for the recovery when so many of your friends are gone. Like my son has way more dead friends than I do by a long shot. I am more than twice his age. And...

Chuck (30:19.549)
Right? And when he's... Yeah. Isn't that crazy? Scary?

angie (30:22.594)
How do you recover? Like he almost has no one left.

Chuck (30:26.457)
each one of those is a new trauma that your brain is going to, oh, look, I've got a coping strategy just for this, right? It is built right in and we just did it yesterday and it worked yesterday, so let's do it today, right? And each one of those, every one of those is a new trauma to process, right? And it sucks, it really does, you know? Yeah, yeah, you know? That said, after last week's, did I tell, I think I, well, I did tell you ladies off.

angie (30:28.694)
Yeah.

angie (30:43.306)
Yeah, it sucks. It really does.

Chuck (30:55.705)
Offline, last week we talked about Jess and how she had been off the radar for 48 hours. Jess is a friend of mine, Angie, in Regina. Before I left for Thailand, I stopped and reconnected with. And just, I've taken a great personal interest in her particular story. I wish I could for every single person that I left behind, if you wanna say that. And who's still an active addiction, like just a hard, hard life, right? As a sex worker and all that.

Lisa (31:02.949)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (31:26.021)
So she disappears for 48 hours, you know, and not like messages, not delivering on Messenger. And to me, that's terrifying. It happens, if it's 24 hours, it's terrifying, 48 hours. Or no, she was at four days by this point. So yeah, like 96 hours. I'm losing my mind with worry, you know, and I'm hyper empathetic and I emote a lot on the show. God, no, it's not an episode if I don't cry at some point. And as soon as we stopped recording,

angie (31:39.478)
Yeah.

Chuck (31:55.565)
As soon as, and I'm not a religious man, but sometimes I wonder, right? Cause as soon as we stopped recording, boom, in comes the message. That's from her. She's back with her mom and she's back. She's taken another kick at recovery. Right. So it was something else.

Lisa (32:06.296)
Mm-hmm.

angie (32:09.886)
And how did you feel? What did, how did you feel? How did that change your, right?

Lisa (32:10.076)
This is amazing.

Chuck (32:14.989)
I bawled. I bawled in relief. So if you can imagine her mom, right? Who I reached out to. Yeah, of course you can. I reached out to her the week previous to say, hey, this is who I am, you don't know me. But I got Ash to give me her number. Edit that out. I got Jess to give me her number.

angie (32:20.918)
Yes, I can. I can't. I can't imagine.

Lisa (32:22.698)
Hehehe

Chuck (32:37.333)
So I said, listen, I want to try and reach out to your mom so that we can offer her some support through the show and our network of people that we have. And, you know, maybe help bridge the connection between you two. Because she had just had two months clean. She's about a month into relapse. It's like, oh, and that catastrophic thing that are catastrophic. Use the word, please, Lisa. Thank you. A relapse, I think, is a normal thing for loved ones to do.

angie (32:55.702)
catastrophizing. So, yeah, it's hard. It's a hard one.

Atika (32:57.72)
Catastrophizing.

Chuck (33:06.137)
which of course I'm sure you could speak to, you know, in your capacity as peer supporting and all that. So to reach out to her and, but here's the thing. Jess being a sex worker, her mom knows this about her, it's not hidden, right? They're indigenous as well, I should say. It's not unheard of for Jess to have people kind of stalking her, like low key stalking and like dudes, you know, like guys with ill intent.

angie (33:11.211)
Oh yeah.

Chuck (33:35.121)
So her mom is like, who is this white guy messaging me about my daughter? Is this just another one of these like weirdos? What's going, like, you know, so, and I didn't realize this until I talked to Jess finally. And she's like, oh yeah, she thought like, she's wondering who the hell you were, right? I was like, oh, I guess, yeah, I could see that. I could see that, right? So yeah, it was, it was quite funny, but yeah. Yeah, and she still is, we talked yesterday. She's, she's back at home still on the recovery road and. Oh.

angie (33:38.862)
I'm going to go ahead and close the video.

angie (33:44.081)
Yeah.

angie (33:49.666)
Yeah.

angie (34:02.446)
Thank God, eh? Yeah, you can breathe again.

Lisa (34:02.64)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chuck (34:03.028)
It just works. I know, right? I know. Yeah.

Lisa (34:06.992)
Mm hmm. Can I ask a question? Yeah, good. Um, you were saying that one of the frustrations is not just the laws, but the way that they're applied. And I don't remember, Angie, if we've actually spoken about this, but I know I've spoken about it on the show. So I'm curious for you to talk about that more. Like, one of the things I noticed is, for example, in Alberta, right certification under the Mental Health Act is

Chuck (34:11.097)
Of course you can.

Chuck (34:19.434)
Oh, yeah.

Lisa (34:35.4)
via a Form 1. Now in Alberta, we do not use Form 1s to certify people with substance use disorder. And I've actually been told in review panels, well, we just don't do that here. But if you go through the criteria, they meet criteria.

angie (34:50.999)
There you go.

Right. They certainly do. So yeah, I gotta...

Lisa (34:58.244)
So I'm curious for you to just talk about this.

angie (35:02.55)
I have so much to say about this. So both in terms of Alberta and Ontario, and it's similar in many other provinces, right? So there's a really good article in 2020 in Ontario called Rethinking Involuntary Admissions for Severe Substance Use Disorder in Hospital

Lisa (35:04.304)
Hahaha

Chuck (35:05.193)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

angie (35:31.562)
right? And they looked at the criteria of our Mental Health Act in Ontario. And they so it's like, is someone you know, at serious risk of harm? And is addiction a mental disorder under the act? Those were the two questions. Okay. And they looked at it. And this is a commentary and they said yes, and yes, and it's pretty clear.

A number of things. Yeah, go ahead.

Lisa (36:03.548)
To interject one thing that's interesting is at least here, in terms of a disorder, we're told very clearly when we go to review panels by lawyers that I don't care what the diagnosis is. So to me, it almost supports using it in addiction or substance use disorder. Because what they're saying is, is there impaired judgment? Is there disorganized thinking? Is like...

that is their definition of a mental illness or a mental disorder. It's not a diagnosis. And so it's like, then why do we not utilize it in substance use disorder? I like, I just feel like it's stigma driven. No one will say that or admit that.

angie (36:39.98)
Yeah.

Chuck (36:43.686)
It is 100%. Oh, oh, she's

angie (36:44.258)
Oh, yeah. Oh, actually, this article, this commentary does say it and I've got there were a couple of a couple little quotes I wanted to make this morning. So thank you for setting me up for this one. So in this comment.

Lisa (36:56.826)
Hahaha.

Chuck (36:58.468)
I love you as a guest, Ange. Before you start, you are like, you are a fantastic guest. Thank you so much for coming. Okay, continue. Yes.

angie (37:03.694)
I'm passionate, okay? That's a good way to phrase it, passionate. So what this group of physicians and lawyers said is, because they then said, so if it meets criteria, if there's serious risk of harm, which they clearly are because they're dying, and if it is a mental disorder, which it clearly is under the DSM and even under the consent and capacity tribunal decisions, it's clear.

but they tend to only do it when there's something else going on, when there's some other mental health disorder. So why is it that we're not applying it? They said, is the possible underutilization of involuntary measures in people with severe substance use disorders or the exclusion of people with substance use disorders from everyday interpretations of involuntary admission criteria a manifestation of therapeutic nihilism or worse stigma?

which further compounds this population's marginalization. So.

Chuck (38:05.373)
So can you dumb that down?

angie (38:08.186)
Oh, yeah. Okay. So they basically said, why aren't we applying the PR like, if it applies, right there, this is a mental disorder and that serious risk of harm, and they aren't seeking treatment, why aren't we hanging on to them? And the answer was, could it be because like, we just think it's hopeless, like untreatable? Or is it stigma, i.e. discrimination? Like, sadly, you know,

Chuck (38:34.109)
Yes.

angie (38:35.83)
The medical community in general, they just don't get a good education in addiction. They don't really know what it is. I'm talking about like not the specialists, obviously, but the general doctor population and maybe, I think ER it's getting a little better, but yeah, you know, it's still kind of viewed as a choice out there and don't get like, I think it's, unless it's an addiction psychiatrist, I don't think psychiatrists are much better and the older they are, the less informed.

For me, they are. So in other words, the problem isn't necessarily the drafting of the Mental Health Act, it's the application of the Mental Health Act. So this was written, yeah. Yeah, so this was written three years ago and what's happened in the meanwhile, well, interestingly, CAMH just had a grand rounds on involuntary treatment. They discussed three cases.

Chuck (39:19.313)
which we've spoken to at great length on the show, Lisa specifically, right? Yeah, yeah.

angie (39:35.378)
and two of which applied our mental health act to substance use, you know, to substance use disorder alone. And what really encouraged me was actually looking at the reasons for one of them. One of them was alcohol. And they looked at the fact that the person who was a mother of young children, you know,

could face homelessness and probably would face homelessness because the family was at the point where they could no longer, she was a risk to her young children and other family members. So they couldn't put a roof over her head. And that was taken into consideration. And to me, that's what should be taken into consideration. Cause again, historically, physicians look at imminent death. That is, you know,

Lisa (40:11.548)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Chuck (40:25.618)
percent.

angie (40:31.09)
What is serious risk of harm? It's imminent death. And to me it's like, no, where do we want to go? We don't want people with addiction, mental illness to end up in jail, dead or homeless. To me, I think basically people agree with that. So how, like work backwards from there and how do we get there? And if you have revolving door, you know, ER visits or, you know, incarceration, it doesn't get you to where you want to be. Right. So,

Lisa (41:00.156)
Thank you.

angie (41:01.234)
Lisa LaPointe out in BC is the chief coroner, recently said something that is really, I mean, it's just true, but from my perspective, from a legal perspective, it's really telling. She said, anybody out there using illegal substances is at serious risk of harm or death. Okay, there's one criteria right there for involuntary treatment. The other one is,

you have a mental health, a mental disorder, is the words that they use. So it's not gonna catch people who are recreational users. But if you're struggling with addiction and you're addicted to illicit substances and you don't want treatment, you just met the criteria. How many people is that? Yeah, go ahead, Lisa.

Lisa (41:50.937)
and can.

I just want to read, just as you're going, right? I actually have pulled up the Alberta form so I can be very specific. So for example, they define on the form that I have been told we just don't use that for addiction in Alberta, that a mental disorder is a substantial disorder of thought, mood, perception, orientation, or memory that grossly impairs your judgment, your behavior,

Chuck (41:57.757)
Hahaha

angie (41:58.358)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lisa (42:22.948)
your capacity to recognize reality, or, or so if nothing else, or your ability to meet the ordinary demands of life. Now somebody tell me how addiction does not satisfy this criteria.

angie (42:33.399)
Right.

Chuck (42:40.905)
us.

angie (42:41.922)
So, so I can help you with that, like even specifically to Alberta, I'm going to send you after this. There are two lawyers, I think they were with the law firm Miller Thompson, but in the last six months or so, I wrote an article on human rights and substance use disorder and they were responding to people making the criticism that the intended compassionate care act of Alberta would be

Lisa (42:46.941)
Okay.

angie (43:09.162)
medical violence or something along those lines, right? Like a violent reaction or whatever. And they were addressing that. And I mean, their whole thing, it was like, no, this isn't a violation of rights, you know? And two, they don't even need the Compassionate Care Act. They could be doing this under their existing mental health act. Two lawyers in Ontario, you don't need a Compassionate Care Act. So it's kind of interesting. So why are they doing it?

Lisa (43:31.856)
Exactly.

angie (43:37.962)
Like, why are they doing this, right? Like, what are the reasons?

Lisa (43:40.22)
And the other thing is that again, I agree, I've heard that exact thing that well, they're not imminent risk. And often it's not even like it gets ignored about their risk they are to themselves. And the focus is they're not going to hurt anybody. And it's like, but what about themselves? Right. And again, that particular criteria does not say that they need to be at imminent physical risk to other people. It actually says is within a reasonable time.

angie (43:56.414)
else, anybody else. Right, yes.

Lisa (44:09.096)
likely to cause harm to others or to suffer negative effects.

angie (44:15.478)
That's totally a price. And it's not just imminent death, like serious risk of harm, you know, is to me, if they're gonna be sexually exploited, if, you know, they're gonna be incarcerated. Like incarceration, let's look at youth. Incarceration is an adverse childhood experience, right?

Lisa (44:40.315)
Mm-hmm.

angie (44:40.554)
So if the choice is like this kid is trafficking or this kid is stealing or this kid is pummeling people because they've got out of control addiction and the parents are going, yeah, so let's treat them. So those things aren't happening because that's not the kid I know, that's not the kid I raised, that's my kid struggling with an addiction. Why would we say to the parents, oh, sorry, no, it's their right, it's their human, it's their autonomy.

Chuck (44:40.581)
Oh yeah.

angie (45:08.182)
We're gonna wait to, oh my God, look at all the bad things. Let's shove them in jail now. That's what parents are being told. Like if we're aware that our kids are involved in truly criminal activity, which I define as harm to others, right? And we go, this is happening. We need to intervene, because otherwise you're just gonna arrest them. And that's an adverse childhood experience. And it isn't too good for adults either. So let's get them before that happens. It's like, oh no.

They have rights, they've got autonomy. We have to wait and then we're going to criminalize them. And if it's the other side of it, if it's not harm to others, but harm to self, then you just have to wait until they die and then you get to bury them, mom and dad. We'll call you in to make the funeral arrangements. You're kind of useless to us until then. I mean, it's so frail. Like, you know, the whole thing, they have to want treatment to me. What I hear is, you know, tag your it. When the medical community...

says they have to want treatment. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. It means we're not helping. Yes, it's our job. Yes, we're paid to do this. No, you're not experts, we are. And you have a job and you have other people in the family to protect. And this isn't your expertise. But even though your kids at serious risk of harm to themselves or others, they don't want help. So it's your job now. We've delegated that to you.

Chuck (46:32.594)
Wow.

angie (46:32.622)
Because it's easier for us not to have to deal with people who don't want to be here. And yeah, sure it is. But yeah.

Chuck (46:37.417)
I gotta say, Ansh, I know all of this stuff already and the way that you are wording things, it's pissing me off more, again, right? Like it's reinvigorating all of this in me. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, right? And I'm always pissed off about this. Like, I don't know how you're getting more out of me. Right? You know.

angie (46:48.61)
Well good!

Lisa (46:50.65)
Yeah. And it's also...

angie (46:56.395)
Yeah.

Lisa (46:56.587)
Yeah.

One of the things that frustrates me when I hear people talk about, you know, we're violating their rights and autonomy is the fact that in mental health, we certify people often. We impose treatment orders. We impose community treatment orders when they're discharged from the hospital. And yet somehow, again, my belief is stigma-rooted, is that we don't,

think this is the case, but I feel like there's this general thing put out into the universe that somehow we can't apply our same knowledge and abilities to someone with substance use disorder as what we do to people who have schizophrenia or have bipolar disorder. You know, like there's even and it just like it made me nauseated. There's a emergency physician in Calgary who

for whatever reason seems to really, you know, try to promote themselves through social media. And it's, you know, these videos and these posts and posted this video of themselves sitting in their car crying about this idea of mandating treatment for substance use disorder. And I replied, I never replied. This was like on Twitter or something. I never, like, I can't be bothered, but I'm like, are you kidding me?

angie (48:11.315)
Oh, I slide.

Lisa (48:24.112)
Like how many Form 1s did you complete this week at work for people with mental illness? Why are you acting like somehow this person with substance use disorder is unique and special and to do the same thing to them is so violating? Like what are you talking about? It actually angers me.

angie (48:30.474)
Yep. So.

Chuck (48:47.394)
Wow. Well, and I'd like to see that fire in you, right?

angie (48:47.815)
Oh yeah, that it made me very angry too.

Chuck (48:53.805)
I wanna get Atika involved here, ladies, if I can. Atika, and it's no secret, I mean, we've had this conversation. I think your perspective right now is extra valuable because your opinion has changed, and correct me if I'm wrong, right? Or you've had a shift at least in your thinking around mandated treatment? Is that?

Atika (49:17.167)
Yeah, so basically I was in that debate of Dr. Cartford and Dr. Tangui. And I, like, after I see how the evidence just, basically, I think he, I think Dr. Tangui's paper is better, like, scientifically speaking. Like, I'm not

I don't really care about the whole... I'm not so much into ethics or... I really care about what the evidence presents and I have to look at it that way. It's never a moral issue to me. It's more so about does it work or not? And I think if we...

Chuck (50:09.97)
Mm-hmm.

Atika (50:14.719)
like Dr. Tangui said, there needs to be enough beds for people who are, who want to recover, but also we don't criminalize people who, who's supposed to have a treatment and we, and we give them treatment that is actual treatment, not just, not just locking them up, which is, I think what, what people who are basically the main concern of people who are

Chuck (50:36.205)
It's just punitive and right, yeah.

Atika (50:44.459)
against bandaid treatment is basically we just care about how they are treated in that in that treatment facility. That's all we care about right. We just want basically we just want people to be taken care of like a human like just like everybody else. So

Chuck (51:00.809)
Shoot. Okay, we'll just act like it's not happening. It'll catch up. Okay, here we are. Okay, okay. Okay. We lost you for a second there, but it'll come through in the final recording, so.

angie (51:05.835)
Oh, there.

Atika (51:08.267)
Yeah, so...

Atika (51:12.715)
Yeah, but yeah, like in some yourself like schizophrenia or any other mental disorder, I really like working so hard to give them autonomy before that we say, okay, well, you clearly can't function like you clearly is a harm to yourself, you know, but yeah, I guess.

Yeah, with that debate I really saw.

Lisa (51:40.92)
And I think my personal experience is that I don't feel like my, like myself or my colleagues abuse, you know, certification. I think that we try everything we can. You know, for example, like when I'm doing community treatment orders, I can know that I do not need this person's consent to put them on a community treatment order because of their history, but if they will consent

I have them sign the consent. Even though I could say I'm doing this as a no consent treatment order, I want them to be an active participant in their wellness. I feel, I have not, I do not feel like, as like I think the majority of my colleagues err on the side of trying to give people as much autonomy as they can, sometimes to a fault.

Chuck (52:16.605)
Yeah.

Chuck (52:20.805)
And I would like to think that that's most medical, most psychiatrists would, right? Yeah.

Lisa (52:39.652)
You know, like I really personally have not witnessed abuse of these sorts of things. But I don't get why we don't recognize that if we can do it for other mental disorders, that we can also do it appropriately in substance use disorder. Like we continue to treat it like it's some sort of a special illness. And it's not, it's an illness.

Chuck (52:59.662)
Thank you.

Lisa (53:07.472)
Schizophrenia is an illness, diabetes is an illness, they're illnesses. And yeah, so just this, you know, we'll, we do it in all the other things under the DSM, but we're, we can apply it in substance use disorder, despite the fact that as we're talking about, they meet criteria.

Chuck (53:25.85)
Right.

Atika (53:26.183)
I think it has something to do with how mandated treatment was done in the past, or done in the past, which is basically also tied in into being criminalized, like addiction being criminalized. And so there's this, you know, it's like a pendulum that people, at least in my community, thinking that, oh, are you criminalizing this? You know, and there's that fear.

we used to criminalize drug users and there are criminalization in other parts of the world about people with substance use disorder. So I don't think it's not necessarily that people think okay schizophrenia and substance use disorder are different, but it's more so about

Chuck (54:07.305)
Thank you.

Lisa (54:25.52)
But now, Atika, I totally agree with you. The one thing I would say is that I agree with what you're saying if you're looking at it from the perspective of a user. But my question is, from the perspective of a physician, why do we feel that we don't have the ability to utilize our Mental Health Act to help people with substance use disorder in the same way that we utilize the Mental Health Act to help people with

Atika (54:27.824)
Mm-hmm.

Atika (54:41.18)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (54:55.18)
other mental illnesses.

Chuck (54:56.273)
Well, I think we know the answer to that, right? We know.

Atika (54:59.221)
I think I agree with that.

Chuck (55:01.245)
Stigma, stigma, it's 100% stigma, that's why, right? I mean, that's, yeah.

angie (55:04.11)
because historically we've used jails. That's what they're supposed to go, because you know, like, no.

Atika (55:04.173)
Yeah.

Chuck (55:07.173)
Yeah.

Atika (55:07.631)
We use jails. It's not, they're not supposed to go there, right? And like people in bipolar and other, in other parts of the world or schizophrenia, they don't, they're not criminalized, but then they are criminalized for substance use disorder. So there's that common, you know, collective trauma.

angie (55:22.486)
Yeah.

Lisa (55:25.231)
Yeah.

Chuck (55:26.157)
And I think the harm reduction community has valid concerns. As when you first came on the show, Atika, you were, you know, your concerns are valid, right? About dehumanizing people and taking away their rights and their autonomy and all of those things, right? Because of our past, right? Like, of course, there's valid concerns about that. So overcoming that history, right? Go ahead, sorry, yeah.

angie (55:39.65)
it.

angie (55:49.88)
Yeah, the three things people usually say about involuntary treatment is it's ineffective, it's unethical and a violation of rights. And the truth of the matter is if you do it wrong, it will be all of those things. And I have to say traditionally, done wrong, almost across the board. So I 100% understand.

Atika (56:06.455)
Yeah, I think so.

Chuck (56:07.025)
Yeah.

Lisa (56:07.374)
Mm-hmm.

angie (56:11.702)
where people are coming from and what the concerns are. And let's get real in some countries, you know, you're caught with drugs, whether you have a substance use disorder or not, you're in forced labor and they're calling it treatment. So like that's the history of it. But what I would say, yeah.

Chuck (56:14.001)
Yes.

Lisa (56:21.376)
Totally.

Chuck (56:23.953)
Yeah.

Atika (56:24.607)
Yeah. No, in my country, like you can get killed, you can get killed for possession. And that's where people are really fighting against anything mandatory because they because there's that collective trauma of, oh no, are you treating this like, like a moral failure? It's not right? Like it's, it's a disease. It's a healthcare issue. So, um, yeah.

angie (56:30.45)
No. That's terrible.

Lisa (56:32.934)
Mm-hmm.

angie (56:37.462)
Right.

Lisa (56:38.116)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (56:49.142)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (56:53.938)
Mm-hmm.

angie (56:54.434)
See, I think, yeah, it's like it's, to me, it's kind of, okay, I could tell you like families in Ontario have been advocating for more involuntary, for voluntary treatment to apply to addiction. But even the families whose loved ones have other mental health conditions that usually we do apply, you know, our mental health act to, there aren't enough beds. So they're, they've been advocating for this forever.

Atika (56:55.24)
I think that's history.

angie (57:24.398)
Sadly, why are we talking about this today? Oh, because the politicians are all of a sudden talking about it. Well, why are they all of a sudden talking about it? It's because of the opioid epidemic, that's it. And so no one cares about the, frankly, more people dying from alcohol use disorder. We don't even talk about it. And so I think the main point needs to be, and you know, you kind of need to be...

of a certain age and involved in this for a long time to know this, but involuntary treatment is not about drug policy reform. You can believe in drug policy reform and believe in involuntary treatment. It's a question of an individual's capacity to make treatment decisions and whether they're at serious risk to harm themselves or others due to an untreated addiction or other mental health condition and they aren't seeking treatment.

you know, to the people who oppose it, like across, there are people who it's, it's like an ideology and it's just like, no, never, no way, no how. My question to them is, and they can never answer it. Well, what is your better solution when someone lacks capacity to make treatment decisions or what is your better solution when they're at serious risk of harm to themselves or others due to untreated addiction and they're not seeking help. And like, don't answer that with harm reduction. Cause I agree with harm reduction.

Chuck (58:33.737)
Thanks for watching!

angie (58:49.494)
But the thing is, like treatment doesn't work if you aren't seeking it. Sadly, there are many people who are either unwilling or unable to practice harm reduction. No one ever says that, it is the truth. You have people who are not calling doors, right? They're using a loan in their homes and they're not calling doors and they're dead. So, harm reduction is good.

Lisa (59:17.068)
Mm-hmm.

angie (59:17.878)
We need more harm reduction, and that is not going to save everyone, and don't tell me it is. So that could be, well, safer supply, okay, but people are dying from alcohol. So, you know, it's like everything. We need everything.

Lisa (59:23.709)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (59:30.889)
And the other thing, Angie, is, and the other thing is that from an ethical perspective, right, people play the ethics card. But it's like as society, is it ethical to stand by and allow somebody who has mental retardation to walk down the middle of a highway and get hit by a car and get killed? Is it ethical as a society to allow a three-year-old

to wander the streets and freeze to death in a snowbank. No, and so we don't do those things as society. So it's like, it's easy to say, well, it's unethical to force treatment. But my question is, is it ethical to stand by and do nothing when we know that these people have frontal lobes that are turned off? How is that ethical? Like, look at yourself, like, you know? Yeah.

angie (01:00:13.57)
Okay.

angie (01:00:20.068)
100%. Right!

Chuck (01:00:21.533)
Right.

angie (01:00:23.654)
We need to question the ethics of it's way past time to question the ethics of not intervening. Right? Like, what are you saying? You agree we've got the coroner agreeing everybody's a serious risk of harm. And some of them are struggling with addiction and not seeking help. Like they know 75% aren't seeking help. So then what? Like, you know, regulation, safer supply, decrim, we need to do a lot of that.

Lisa (01:00:30.033)
Mm-hmm.

angie (01:00:52.67)
I'm hesitating with the safer supply versus regulation, because I like regulation better than safer supply, but that's a long story. Yeah, that's another podcast. We need drug policy reform, and we need protective health laws. We need both. And it comes down to what's in the best interest of that individual? Like, can't they look after themselves? And so same with rights. Yeah, and-

Chuck (01:00:59.889)
That's another podcast episode. That's what that is.

Chuck (01:01:15.845)
Yeah. And which tool are we going to pull out of the box to make sure that their best interest is being met? Right. You know.

angie (01:01:21.674)
Yeah, and the whole, you know, human rights, well, to me, they have a right to life and security of the person. Their security of the person is affected when they can't stop using, it's killing them and they don't want to die. Okay, let's just switch to alcohol, so we don't have the issue of regulation being the problem. Alcohol, it's regulated, it's not the problem. So they're drinking, you know, to death and they can't stop and they don't want help or they, you know, yeah, they just...

They don't want help, they're drinking themselves to death. I'm more interested in their right to life and security of the person than their right to refuse treatment, because they're, which is their autonomy, because their autonomy is compromised by their illness. Like, oh, you can't coerce them. Their brain is coercing them. Their brain is off-kilter. It's telling them you need, and to be fair, if they don't have some alcohol, they're gonna have seizures and stuff. So again, but...

That's not the solution long term. So rights have to be balanced even within the individual. And if their right to autonomy is gonna kill them and they don't wanna die, I would prefer their right to life and security of the person.

Chuck (01:02:37.181)
Hmm, fair, well said. I can't help but think as I'm sitting here listening to you, the perspective, like the lenses that we're seeing all of this from sitting with this panel of the four of us, specifically though, I can see Lisa and Angie, the two of you, a lawyer and a doctor, and a retired lawyer, I know, I'm sorry, right? But together, what you could do in the world.

Right? Like this is I I'm just like, Oh my God. The two of you could get you could just you could kick so much ass together. I just want to say that. Sorry.

Lisa (01:03:11.273)
Hmm

angie (01:03:13.09)
Well, thank you, but sadly the only thing that makes our politicians move is embarrassing them in the media. And I don't like doing that. Like, that's not my MO, but...

Chuck (01:03:20.881)
Well said, well said, yeah. But isn't there a part of you that like a little bit, a little bit, don't you like it? You gotta like it just a little bit. I mean, embarrassing a politician is always a good thing. Right? Yeah, yeah.

angie (01:03:31.442)
Okay, you know what, if they did something about it, but they don't. Like they still, I don't know, maybe we're not big enough. Maybe that's it. You know, I don't know. But ultimately it's the people who don't like stepping over our people and who, you know, and whose businesses are being affected and who don't want their children to have to witness all this stuff on the street, they're the ones that are going to...

Chuck (01:03:39.85)
That's fair.

Chuck (01:03:44.933)
Yeah. Well, that's, yeah.

Lisa (01:03:45.084)
Mm-hmm.

angie (01:04:02.887)
resulted in the politicians addressing concerns family caregivers have been telling them about to deaf ears for over a decade. Like yeah.

Chuck (01:04:12.037)
muggles. The muggles are the ones that change it, right? I've been saying that for since day one, you know, the Harry Potter reference engine in case you're not, right?

Lisa (01:04:17.968)
But I do believe, he calls people like you and I muggles. But I, yeah. But I like Harry Potter, so I'm okay with it. I believe that families demanding more and being louder can make a difference.

Chuck (01:04:24.517)
Yes, actually I call Lisa the mugglest of the muggles actually.

angie (01:04:24.759)
But...

Chuck (01:04:45.133)
100%.

Lisa (01:04:45.944)
And I think it's one of the reasons why I think something like FAR is powerful, because I see it on an individual basis. It's like, you know what? Do another Form 8, do another Form 8, do another Form 8. At some point, they're gonna be like, for God's sakes, okay. This family's driving us crazy. And the sad thing though is the amount of energy and time that it takes to do that.

Chuck (01:05:05.354)
Hahaha

angie (01:05:07.882)
Yeah.

Lisa (01:05:14.072)
you know, for a family who's already suffering and feeling helpless and feeling under supported. But I feel like, yeah, there aren't enough beds. You know, it's something that Rob talked about on the show. It's like, yeah, okay, we can talk about do we or do we not mandate treatment? But the other thing is if we mandate treatment, what are we gonna do? Because like, where are we gonna put these people? You know? But again, it's like, show up, demand, fight, be loud. Because I do think it can make a difference.

angie (01:05:44.422)
Oh, for sure. It's the squeaky wheel. If you don't squeak, no one. And the problem is, families do an awful lot of squeaking and they still aren't seen and heard, you know. That doesn't mean you stop. You absolutely have to. But like the waste in that, it's like the waste. Somebody described it to me when I was just starting out as, it's like, you know, I don't know if you've ever seen like the ocean where there's lots of fish and somebody throws in like a little piece of bread and then the

the water just roils, you know, it's just roiling all with all the fighting for that. But that's, you know, people who are trying to serve our loved ones and the resources available and the federal funding, right? There's like a drop in the bucket and so much time is spent elbowing other people out of it. And you know, like, this is how I view it. Like it's like, so if I squeak for my son to get treatment and that person

over there doesn't, I still, I like, great, my son gets treatment. I've elbowed, but who did I just elbow out of the way? Some other family that really needs treatment. Like we all need, we need to all get together and tell the politicians that, that we need, we need treatment on demand and the human resources to do that.

Chuck (01:06:53.677)
But if everybody starts elbowing, right? And even then Angie, yes, yeah.

angie (01:07:12.222)
and it needs to be urgent. And like part of the problem is like the whole setup for the, how we educate physicians, because you know, on one hand, I understand you got a dermatologist should they really know how to treat opioid use disorder and you can't make them. On the other hand, as a profession, like what's really kind of happened is as a profession, historically, they've never treated addiction. They sent you to AA.

or you went to jail, they just didn't deal with you. It wasn't their job. And a lot of them still don't see it as their job and they're not comfortable because they don't get the education. And there doesn't seem to be any way to force physicians to learn how to treat opioid use disorder in primary care. And to me, that really needs to be done. And in this debate or the other session, Crockford was talking about how the feds, I didn't know this, apparently they've mandated, weight like,

wait lists for hip replacements can't be longer than whatever. I don't know if they've tied the provincial funding into that, but wow, like why aren't we demanding they do the same thing with residential treatment for those who need it for addiction and to ensure that people, you know, who want OAT can get it no matter where they live, right? Like that's, you know...

We're screaming for safer supply and people who want the approved treatments can't get it. It's just so backwards. It's backwards. And physicians are part of the problem because not addiction medicine doctors, but the general one because they haven't the education. We can't make them do it. And like, I don't know. It's like somehow we need to.

Lisa (01:08:47.672)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (01:08:48.007)
Mm-hmm.

angie (01:09:11.414)
make them do it or incentivize them so they want to do it. I mean, obviously that's better, but how do you do that with an urgent response?

Lisa (01:09:18.052)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (01:09:19.021)
Is it, is it, is the reality now the next generation? Is the reality now the next generation of physicians? Is it Lisa, what do you think of that? Is it, is it just the reality? Is that where we're at with it? And you know.

Lisa (01:09:34.18)
I mean, it's interesting, you know, I always think back to this one physician that I worked with, in part because I feel like, you know, it's a bit of a stereotype. But this was when I was, I was in my last year of med school, and I was on a labor and delivery unit. And I was working with this obstetrician who was probably, you know, he was a Caucasian man in his mid 60s, probably. And a woman had come in with

active opiate use disorder in preterm labor. And there was so much stigma. And of course he had no idea what my interests were. And we were chatting and I mean, the one thing I will say was he was actually very open to me talking to him about some of this. And I said, oh, actually, you know, like I have an interest in addiction medicine and.

And I started talking to him about, you know, functional MRI imaging of this woman's brain and what was going on in her frontal lobe and how that was impairing her ability to act in a way that would be in keeping with a natural instinct of a mother to want to protect her child and love her child and make good decisions for her child. And I saw him shift literally in 10 minutes in terms of how he looked at and spoke about this woman. So...

I mean, I think that, you know, education around the science of addiction is powerful. And I think physicians obviously are scientifically driven individuals. And I think this information can impact any physician if they're provided it. But again, it's the question of how do 60 year old obstetricians learn about the science of addiction?

when they're not sitting in a medical school classroom anymore. How do you get that information to those individuals? So I think it's easier to change the next generation of physicians' perspective because you can make sure this is incorporated into their medical training that every physician goes through. I think it's simply harder to reach people who are already well into practice in specialties that are not, you know, going to see addiction on a regular basis.

Chuck (01:11:56.19)
Okay, that's a fair answer, most certainly.

Lisa (01:11:58.636)
Yeah. But I just, you know, just like with what we were talking about, like, there's still this part of me, I mean, I work in a hospital and I, you know, I know what it feels like when the emerge is backed up and busy and you feel like you're drowning. But there's still this part of me that's like if every family member lined up at the courthouse and said, you know what, I've read through this criteria.

angie (01:12:00.908)
That's the answer.

Lisa (01:12:26.912)
I think my loved one in addiction satisfies certification criteria and I want a form eight. Imagine what it would look like for a judge showing up to a courthouse in the morning with a line that goes 10 blocks down the road saying we want a form, we want treatment. Like what's the power of that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But do you know what I mean? Like it will overwhelm.

Chuck (01:12:44.701)
Can you send me that link please, Lisa? The link on what it, please. I, you just gave me a, you just inspired something that, right? Right? Yeah. Oh.

Lisa (01:12:55.024)
the legal system, it will overwhelm. Like, you know, if every, cause for example, I meet plenty of people suffering in addiction who want help, who don't know where to go. They don't have family, but they don't, they don't believe that showing up at the hospital is the answer. But what if everybody in addiction who wanted help, because a lot of them want it and don't know how to get it or don't believe it's available to them. What if every one of them showed up at a hospital and said, I have substance use disorder. I want help. I'm not leaving until someone helps me.

Atika (01:13:03.103)
That's true. Me too. Me too.

angie (01:13:04.11)
Yeah.

angie (01:13:14.987)
Yes.

Atika (01:13:15.495)
That's true.

Lisa (01:13:23.364)
What if every family member lined up outside of every courthouse in this country and demanded certification for their loved one? Do you know, like, I know I'm being extremist. I get that, but I'm just saying, like, that's for me, a powerful thing. Like.

Chuck (01:13:36.141)
extreme situation. We are in an extreme situation right now. People are dying all day, every day, right? The numbers are awful. They're staggering. Four times the amount of people died from opiate disorder or from drug poisoning, right?

Atika (01:13:47.643)
So the problem is that there is decriminalization without regulation, which is that's why there is poisoning everywhere. Like I don't even like the term overdose. This is not even an overdose. Like it's a poisoning. And literally people get poisoning. They don't know if their batch is clean or not. And most of the time it's not. Over 99% of the time it's not.

And the current technology is not even good enough to detect everything 5% or under 5% of concentration, which is basically enough to kill someone. And I do see people wanting to get help, but they have to wait for months to get help. Like that's terrible, you know. So

Chuck (01:14:36.581)
That's crazy. It's crazy. Right? Yeah. I know in Saskatchewan that they have that. Everybody lit up there.

Lisa (01:14:38.46)
Yeah. But again, it's like that question and that question though of if everybody started showing up and demanding, you know, I don't know, maybe demanding is the wrong word, but if everybody was showing up and saying, I want help, I want help, it's like that will get attention. You know, it's like how do we get politicians to pay attention? How do we get policies changed, laws changed? It's like...

angie (01:14:40.558)
Criminal.

Chuck (01:14:53.785)
Insisting, insisting, yeah.

Chuck (01:14:59.706)
Yeah, it will.

Lisa (01:15:07.448)
You know, I just have this dream of, you know, every emergency department with a line of people with substance use disorder saying, this is not okay, I deserve help. Every family member lined up outside of their courthouses saying, this is not okay, we want help for our loved ones. It's just like, how powerful would that be? You know, I mean, it's a pipe dream, but...

Chuck (01:15:30.181)
Well, but is it, but is it, I mean, to that extreme, maybe, but if we put a form out, and I have every intention on it, a document that I'll put together, coaching people on where to go, what to say, you know, what they need to do for their loved ones, and watch what happens, right? Watch what happens if people have this tool in front of them and start showing up at courthouses regularly. Lisa, you helped me to help these people. Yeah, but.

Atika (01:15:51.599)
So-

Lisa (01:15:55.164)
I mean, yeah, it's on, it's a public website, you know?

Chuck (01:15:59.353)
Again, we just don't know, family members don't know. There's, right? Most recently, the situation with Heather right now, right? You telling me, telling them, here's what you can do, right? Like there wasn't anything inappropriate about which is, you know, you're very careful to make sure that you didn't cross any lines in your role as a physician. But now that they have gone to the courts, they have the form one, form eight.

Lisa (01:16:00.164)
Yeah. No.

Chuck (01:16:27.965)
What is it that they have to get?

Lisa (01:16:29.884)
So formate is something that's issued by a judge. If a judge agrees with your argument that your loved one is at risk of harm, you know?

Chuck (01:16:33.381)
Yes, that's what they have. They have the formate now, right? So they have the formate, so now it's about finding Heather and who knows how that goes, right? But if every family has that information in front of them, a lot more of them are gonna do it, right? Because that's all they needed was the information. They've been fighting this fight for years and they didn't know until three days ago that this is something they could do, right? So, you know.

Lisa (01:16:48.955)
Yeah.

angie (01:16:57.026)
Well, the people who have known it's something they can do, traditionally, historically, they do it and they don't get anywhere. I mean, that is the history of it, right? And like, even if you get, so in Ontario, you can get a Form 2, which allows the police to bring your loved one to a hospital to be assessed, and then they need a Form 1 and a Form 3. Even if you get them there,

Chuck (01:17:07.781)
Yes. Yeah.

Lisa (01:17:27.385)
Mm-hmm.

angie (01:17:27.517)
you have.

a very slim chance that they're going to hang on to your loved one, especially frankly when yeah. Oh, I'm not, I'm, we are telling, we do tell people to not give up and that kind of thing, but the judiciary is similarly, sadly uneducated. And so like we, we had a family member and they had a youth, you know, and, and

Chuck (01:17:34.889)
So then I would suggest, so go do it again. The next time, do it again and do it again. Right?

Lisa (01:17:39.044)
This is my thing, right? Yeah.

angie (01:17:59.91)
They were told, we've had a couple of them actually, and they told just stuff that's dead wrong, like, well, oh, the justice of the peace in tears. Oh, I so wanna do this for you, but sadly, substance use disorder isn't a mental disorder and the mental health act doesn't apply.

Chuck (01:18:19.025)
So now if that family member is armed with the definition of, and says, and here's the other thing, Angie, something that I've had two people now say, well, one person say, one person ready to say, we have this podcast, it's quite powerful, or it's quite popular, it's growing in popularity, you're gonna be the star if this goes wrong. You right now are going to be the star of it when things go wrong. We're gonna hold your feet to the fire over this.

angie (01:18:25.112)
Yeah.

Chuck (01:18:47.141)
And if we keep doing that and we keep doing that, and the individuals at the front line have to, because that's the only way to change it, right? If the person, if that judge or that doctor is afraid to be outed as the person that led to this person's child's death, then maybe, right? And maybe it is a pipe dream. Maybe I'm in Lisa's camp here and I'm dreaming, but you know, you know.

Lisa (01:19:07.684)
Mm-hmm.

angie (01:19:08.898)
I'm just, my problem with it is there are no beds. Like it's what David Crawford said, you know, in his discussions is he said two things. One didn't surprise me and the other one, I just like, it surprised me that he just said it like that because I'm like, I think I'm like, that should be illegal. But so the first thing was like, we don't have the bed. We don't have the beds for the people with psychiatric disorders who don't have addiction. We don't have the beds for them. So.

Atika (01:19:32.329)
true.

angie (01:19:40.15)
We can't deal with addiction on top of it. And then he said, we don't treat addiction in the psych ward. And later he said, we need to treat everything at the same time. Ah, so we've got beds and we're using them and we're not providing evidence-based treatment because we're ignoring the addiction if they have it or we're dismissing them before they get there. Like, so Lisa, if, like it's a big deal. It is a big deal to go through this procedure, like to try to get you up on.

And generally they don't go, oh, wow, mom, dad, thanks. I love you so much. I see this, I see, you know, it's like you, you know? And so we tell them, like, you know, it's important. Like we tell them, this could affect your relationship with your loved one, but more often than not, the answer is, my relationship is terrible right now and they're gonna die. So I would rather...

Lisa (01:20:15.664)
Hmm

Chuck (01:20:18.819)
Yeah.

angie (01:20:38.53)
they never talk to me again and have a chance at getting well, then not do anything because it might make our bad relationship a little bit worse. Right? So those are the people that need to do it. But when there's no beds, like it's like,

Lisa (01:20:44.503)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (01:20:58.8)
But here's the thing too though, from my perspective, Angie, is that if we continue to not push and show that look at all these people who need beds, they're never gonna create more beds. And so I'm like, I don't care, line them down the street, line, but line them down the street, make it clear we need more beds. It's like, for example, like one of the things that sometimes I am on the receiving end of, you know, is

Chuck (01:21:12.081)
What a fucking terrible, I'm sorry, what a horrible position for a parent to have to be in.

Lisa (01:21:26.616)
messages in hospital about the number of admitted patients in the emergency departments are waiting for psychiatric beds. And so please hurry up and discharge, please hurry up and discharge. And what I think to myself every time I get that message is you're barking on the wrong end of this tree. If I could discharge my patients, I would discharge them. Not because of this text message, I would discharge them because they're ready to go. They're here clearly because they need to be here.

angie (01:21:33.206)
Right.

angie (01:21:53.006)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (01:21:56.036)
So if there are 40 people who need psychiatric beds right now, then go up the ladder, not down, go up the ladder and demand more beds, find a way to get more beds. And I just feel like if we said, no, we're not going to accept that we're not going to help sick people because there's no beds, find more bloody beds. Then I believe it can happen. But if we just say, well, it's no point, don't go to the hospital, don't get the form eight because there's no beds anyway.

They're never gonna be more beds. I'm a dreamer, I'm a dreamer. You know what I mean? But.

Chuck (01:22:29.592)
Right? Yeah. I love that you are though. I do. Yeah.

angie (01:22:35.158)
I totally know what you mean. I just wish there, it seems so inefficient though. That's what my problem, but I like, I a hundred percent agree whatever we're doing right now is not getting the attention. But I have to tell you also, part of it is our community is divided on involuntary treatment. You've got very loud people saying this is a violation of rights, unethical, always wrong and doesn't work, okay?

Lisa (01:22:51.096)
And then.

Lisa (01:23:02.715)
Mm-hmm.

angie (01:23:03.874)
politicians run for the hills with their tail tucked between their legs when they see division in the community. Okay. You couldn't do anything worse, right? Same with safer supply. Like you know, is it helpful or is it killing people? Is it saving people or killing? Like there is the community is right now divided on that. And so the politicians generally just kind of go, oh, nothing in this for us. Like you know, run for the hills. Like let's just ignore this for another 10 years. So it.

It behooves us.

to get at tables with each other and agree that when people use substances, they're better off to use a regulated substance. Some people lack the ability to look after themselves and make treatment decisions and there is a role for involuntary treatment. The question is who, when and how, not if, who, when and how. Let's work together on that because they don't want their love

Nobody wants our people, I don't think, to end up in jail, homeless or dead. You know, that's not the goal. And people generally do care about safety of the community. It's not irrelevant. Safety of family. Not irrelevant. Those are, it's not just about the person with substance use disorder. And if you come from basic principles and you get around the table, you need really great facilitators. But I think that would be the best thing. It's happening.

a little bit now like this.

Chuck (01:24:36.913)
The challenge is that, if I can, the challenge is that getting people at that table together is so hard because of this belief that if you don't show you care the exact same way I show I care, then you don't care. And how many great conversations, this one included, don't happen as soon as people start thinking that way. And it's a point I've made multiple times now and that's just the way it is. Go ahead, Lisa.

Lisa (01:24:37.145)
And.

angie (01:24:49.031)
Uh-huh.

Lisa (01:25:05.204)
The other thing that I feel like is known, it's been the studies have been done in numerous countries, numerous times that the dollar spent on treating addiction saves anywhere from six to 10 from studies that I've read. To me, as society, that is powerful. Because we can say we don't have beds, but when you look at those studies, it's like, but wait a minute, it's actually way more

Chuck (01:25:16.009)
this one.

Lisa (01:25:34.232)
economical and efficient for us to create more beds, build more facilities, treat more people because it saves our economy for every dollar between six to ten dollars. Like why is that? Why are those studies out there and no one seems to talk about them and use that as a driving force to create more facilities and more beds?

angie (01:25:57.314)
They do with the, sorry, what'd you say, Chuck? Yes, exactly.

Chuck (01:25:57.501)
four year political cycles, election cycles, that's why.

Chuck (01:26:03.449)
I said four year election cycles. Nobody gives a shit past their next term. That's why, right? And those are long-term investments.

Atika (01:26:09.399)
There's this pendulum that I find about either we sway into one side, really to the extreme, and then the other end, and another extreme. So I've been in fighting for free naloxone for everyone, for Samaritans, and it took me five years to push that. Three to five years. And it was like, it's so simple. It's the idea that you can just...

angie (01:26:21.75)
Yeah.

Atika (01:26:36.755)
using naloxone on someone when you need to save them. But it's just take years because the political willingness of even taking care of people with substance use disorder is so low. The political willingness is almost absent. So it's just taking that work again and again, just being so persistent, I find.

Chuck (01:26:51.389)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. There's all sorts of reasons for that, right? Yeah.

Chuck (01:27:01.489)
Yeah.

Ladies, we could do this for another three hours. And I just looked at the time and went, oh my Lord, it's quarter to two in the morning here and I still have to edit, publish and release this episode. Right? It's gonna be a long night. And you know where I'm going? You guys are gonna love this. Angie, you won't get the reference, but we're going on an excursion tomorrow as we do once a week here to Banana Beach or Banana Island, sorry. Yay. Right? So.

Lisa (01:27:11.024)
Hahaha

angie (01:27:13.375)
Wow.

Wow.

Atika (01:27:19.185)
Oh my god.

Chuck (01:27:32.961)
Angie, I'll give you just to lighten things up on our on our way out of the show here the episode. So when I first got here, I was talking to both Atika and Lisa about how the bananas here are so much better. They're like dessert, right compared to back home because they're sweet. And Atika said the bananas at home are sad bananas and the bananas here are happy bananas. So every day, I walk around this giant property with all of its statues, and I place bananas on the statues in different ways. And I send a message to our little happy bananas group chat.

Atika (01:27:33.404)
Banana.

angie (01:27:36.119)
Yeah.

Atika (01:27:58.439)
I'm going to go to bed.

angie (01:27:59.422)
Aww.

angie (01:28:03.017)
Ah.

Chuck (01:28:03.121)
Right? So you can imagine how happy I was to find out that tomorrow we're going to Banana Island. Right? Oh yeah. I'm gonna buy all the bananas from all the people. And I don't even know what I'm gonna do. I don't even know. It's gonna be great though. Yeah, so. Right? Yeah.

angie (01:28:07.438)
This is an island.

Lisa (01:28:08.966)
Hahaha!

Lisa (01:28:16.572)
They cheer me up. I get those messages and those pictures with the statues and the bananas. I've even shared them with colleagues at work. It's good.

Atika (01:28:17.536)
I missed.

Atika (01:28:22.135)
Yeah, and the bananas. Yeah.

angie (01:28:22.858)
Oh wow. Oh my God. I'll have to look for them.

Chuck (01:28:25.379)
Right? I'll add you to the happy bananas. No, no, it's not on Facebook. This is our happy banana chat. So if you've got Messenger, if you've got, go ahead, Lisa, add her to the chat if you'd like, because I don't have you on Messenger, right? Yeah, you can be in on our little secret banana chat. Yeah, right? So some of them are a little suggestive, I'm just saying, right? Right? Yesterday.

Lisa (01:28:27.644)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Atika (01:28:28.197)
Yeah.

angie (01:28:33.222)
Oh.

Lisa (01:28:33.257)
We have a happy banana chat.

angie (01:28:37.17)
Okay, there we go. Yeah. All right. Sounds good. Sounds good.

Lisa (01:28:37.312)
Yeah.

Atika (01:28:40.749)
Yeah.

Yeah, cause it's like I miss the bananas. Yeah. Suggestive.

Chuck (01:28:51.041)
or today, I don't know, weird time zone thing. I had grapes here for the first time, local grapes. Oh, they're better than the bananas. They're so sweet. Well, I don't know about better than, that's a bold statement, but they're so sweet. They're just amazing. They're just tiny. Yeah, oh, so much better. I had an avocado smoothie yesterday. Try that, avocado and honey and honey and wild honey to boot, right? Yeah, right. Yeah.

Lisa (01:28:58.991)
Ah!

angie (01:29:04.759)
really good.

Atika (01:29:05.527)
Yeah, the tropical fruits. Yeah, it's amazing.

angie (01:29:11.662)
Hmm

Atika (01:29:12.075)
Oh yeah, the avocado is better.

Oh yeah, and the, what is it called? Like the papayas are much better. Everything is like bigger and better. Yeah, I miss that.

Lisa (01:29:16.764)
Amazing.

Chuck (01:29:22.985)
Oh, there's papayas and mangoes at every meal here, right? I just love that shit. Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna go raid the fridge for us from papayas and bananas. That's what I'm gonna do, right? Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah. Let's, hey, that brings us to my favorite part of the show, and that is the daily gratitudes. We'll start with you today, Atika, what you got for some daily gratitudes?

angie (01:29:27.466)
I'm getting hungry. Yeah, exactly.

Lisa (01:29:29.444)
I know. Alright.

Atika (01:29:35.795)
Happy bananas.

Atika (01:29:47.491)
I'm thankful that I get to see Angie and Lisa again after the seesaw of course and I'm thankful to be a co-host in this podcast so thank you, Chuck.

Chuck (01:30:01.355)
Thank you Lisa, what you got for us today?

Lisa (01:30:05.052)
gonna, yeah, say I'm thankful that Angie's here. I'm thankful for the work that she's doing. I'm thankful that she created FAR as, you know, at the end of the day, I'm a physician right now, but I, this all started as a family member. And yeah, like I'm thankful for the advocacy work that she's doing, the support that she's, you know, helping provide through this organization. So that's what I'm grateful for.

Chuck (01:30:28.817)
Yeah. Great. Angie, what about yourself?

angie (01:30:33.546)
I am grateful to be here that you invited me on that we had the opportunity. I always love having an opportunity to share my opinions, hopefully with people who are listening. So I really do appreciate that. It's always a pleasure spending a time with you, Lisa and Atika and Chuck to really get to know you quite a bit better. And also.

Chuck (01:31:00.369)
Yeah.

angie (01:31:02.35)
I am really grateful that my son is still alive because I am so aware every day, all the time, that he could be gone in an instant. And I would share that experience with so many mothers that I love.

angie (01:31:22.076)
and you know that.

Chuck (01:31:29.113)
Well said. Fuck, I almost made it through an episode. Look at that. You had me once already and then now shit, okay. Anyway, for myself, I mean, I'm so happy that you came on the show. I can't believe that it's taken this long. But it's, you know, the universe provides, right? So there's a reason it took this long. The show has matured.

angie (01:31:31.723)
I'm sorry.

Chuck (01:31:56.993)
Our audience has grown, all those things since we first started talking. So I like to think that that's why, right? Now we're able to get your point across that much better to that many more people. And maybe that's why I took this long. Right. So I'm having more and more faith in the universe as it goes. I'm thankful to my situation where I'm at, at the Autro Treatment Center here. It is like, it's so cool. Everything about this place is conducive to healing.

Chuck (01:32:23.345)
something really hit me the other day as I'm, you know, my daily vlogs and all that jazz. A year ago, I couldn't get on a bus. 20 days ago, I got on a fucking plane to go halfway around the world, right? And to live and to like, I'm so grateful to so many people, right? It's like so many people, you know? And I was just thinking about the contrast there. You got a bus with 30 people and a plane with 400 on it. And...

I went through that for 14 hours instead of 20 minutes. And like the extreme difference there, right? To move and to, you know, right?

Lisa (01:32:57.744)
And Chuck, you get to, you get to like, you're in a place now where you get to savor a banana and find joy in a banana.

Chuck (01:33:04.521)
Right? Like, yay, right? I love ice baths. Who'd have thought that was gonna happen, right? I'm kind of, oh, Ansh, have you ever tried one? Yeah? No? Ah, so you didn't try one. You attempted one, but you haven't actually tried one. I'll tell you what, I'll tell you what, excruciating. And of course, my lifestyle, I've had borderline frostbite a couple of times. So like my hands and feet.

Atika (01:33:05.583)
Savor a banana.

angie (01:33:09.906)
Ooh, not with you on that one. Uh, yeah, I didn't get all the way in. Did not even get in. Oh, I couldn't do it. Just couldn't even do it. Oh, come on. I was in, you know, well, yeah. Okay. Maybe not.

Atika (01:33:11.779)
Yeah.

Chuck (01:33:33.617)
turn to fire when I get cold, like it's awful. These ice baths have changed my life 100%. 100%, they're amazing. It's just like the way you have to center to survive it. Your mind has to be, because it's all about getting through the breath. What it just does for your soul, just everything about it. I just, I can't wait for my next one. I don't get one on the weekends. I'm like, well, that's kind of a scam. Right? So they're awesome.

Yeah, I went five minutes the other day, up from a minute, I think the first one was a minute 40 or something like that, or a minute 15, right? Yeah.

Lisa (01:34:10.396)
to say, Chuck, that I, you know, and for Angie and for anybody listening who hasn't seen it, you know, if you go to, I think you have it on the Ashes to Awesome Facebook page, but he's actually shared videos of his ice bath and he's doing it with support. And so getting to listen to the support talk that, you know, it's going through, like, I actually, the first one you posted made me cry. It was powerful.

Chuck (01:34:19.249)
Facebook page. Yep, yep.

Chuck (01:34:27.789)
Oh, the support.

Oh.

Atika (01:34:32.315)
Yeah.

Chuck (01:34:35.677)
You're the second person to say that. Dan from Hard Knock said the same thing. That support, right? Which is just another reminder for me of all the support it took to get me to a point where I was here, and it's just hyper-focused support now on that ice bath, right? But it is such a parallel to everything that's happened to get me to a point where I'm here. I was homeless a year ago, right? I was fucked like 13 months ago, you know, right? Like straight homeless.

Lisa (01:34:38.961)
watching you do it. Yeah.

angie (01:35:00.142)
Yeah, wow.

Chuck (01:35:04.557)
And now all of a sudden here I am in Thailand and people are walking me through this ice bath and making me smoothies the way I want them. And you know, right? And I'm gonna live in it some happy fucking bananas, right? You know, right? Like, like, oh, and the healing. Rapid, what's the eye movement? EMD, EMDR, holy cow.

Atika (01:35:12.547)
And bananas. Bananas. You're happier in Thailand. I can see that like from like Chuck over here versus Chuck over there.

angie (01:35:14.631)
I'm going to go.

Lisa (01:35:30.433)
EMDR.

Chuck (01:35:33.477)
Right? If for anybody that's listening that has any trauma, I mean, obviously I gotta say, check out Yachter Treatment Center here, yachtercenter.com, but any way you have to access EMDR is worth a try. I took one of the most powerful traumas, something that has been holding me prisoner in my mind and even home for years. And Mike took that from this thing that I completely melted down.

to a thing I could talk about in a matter of fact way, like just melting down, just writing it down. I was like, ah, here goes. In one session, I was able to stop and talk about that in a matter of fact way without emoting about it. And the freedom that came from that was just, it was unreal. Like that is some serious, that is, it's not a gimmick. That's for certain. I mean, it's evidence-based now. I mean, I think that's pretty much accepted, right? Crazy the history behind it, how it came up. But between that,

Cognitive behavior therapy, we think we know that's about when people say it, like me anyway. I'm like, oh I get it You don't there's a whole process there That's really worth looking at like seriously worth looking at And how you react and deal with all sorts of things in your life, right? I find myself already four days after my first treatment Every time I find myself getting upset at something or somebody running this through my mind I'm halfway into my stay and my life is forever better For dealing with these traumas

And so the shit that we do to ourselves based on past experiences is messed up. And this is quite the opportunity to be here. So that said, people that are listening, the GoFundMe is still active. I'm gonna be on my own in two weeks. I'm fucking terrified. Right? So any help is much appreciated. It's right. Anyway, I kind of got off on a rant. This is supposed to be daily gratitude. Well, that's all about gratitude. I guess that was right. I am.

I'm thankful for bougie water bottles, as always. And to each and every person that is watching, listening, and supporting, you guys, please keep like, commenting, sharing. Hit the buttons down there to do those things on whatever platform. We're all over the place now. Every time you do any one of these things, you're getting me a little bit closer to continuing to live my best life. My best life is to make a hub of living, spreading the message. The message is this. If you're in active addiction right now, today could be the day.

Chuck (01:37:58.941)
Today could be the day that you start a lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call in as you talk, go to a meeting, I don't care. Whatever it is you gotta do to get that journey started. This is so much better than the alternative. And if you have a loved one who's suffering an addiction right now, you've just taken the time to listen to the weekend ramble. You just take one more minute out of your day and text that person, let them know they are loved. Use the words.

Lisa (01:38:23.948)
You are loved.

Atika (01:38:23.98)
You are love.

angie (01:38:24.031)
You are love.

Chuck (01:38:26.909)
that little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings him back.

Boom.