Mike Miller is back from the Yatra Centre for another part in our series on trauma therapy. This time, after some real talk about stigma and addiction, always a topic we are glad to get passionate about, we get into how the Yatra Centre brings so many disciplines and modalities together to create a holistic therapeutic experience, with a bonus explanation on how EMDR protocols, are effective when treating addiction, and why.
For the rest of this series, and more info on the Yatra Centre visit www.a2apodcast.com/trauma
mike miller (00:02.068)
Yeah, so the thing that I thought about is just to speak to, you know, Chuck, even though I know you're kind of saying it a bit sort of...
joking or something about like the ego stuff and about validation is like, well, I, to me, it speaks to what the hope is for this podcast is that people end up getting some sort of answers and getting information that can be helpful and, you know, being able to get some help and whether that's provided from anyone who's sitting on this sort of panel or other members of the podcast team. Um, but just the fact that it's in some ways inspiring people to reach out and get help from somebody.
the ultimate compliment for the work that you're doing. And both of you, I think, right? So yeah, I think that's huge.
Chuck LaFLange (00:44.174)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I did say it really is. You know, we were talking about that, and for anybody that's listening, it might be in that position, or know somebody that might be in that position. The fact that she wanted to reach out in the first place is huge. The fact that, like, the kind of strength that that took her, I think, is amazing, and so nice, I don't know, I just, I...
I'm kind of at a loss for her and like how proud because it's tough when you're out there and you're in it but it's so it's in everybody's face it's in your face you know and it's like it's obvious to everybody in the world that you need some help right when you're one of those people on East Hastings or you know myself you know homeless in Regina but when you are suburban person you know all appearances be damned and there you are suffering and you have so much to lose.
so much to lose by not reaching out, reaching out is really hard to do, right? Really hard to do. So I commendable and if you happen to be listening, you know who you are at this point in the conversation, I am so very proud of you and you know keep that up, right? So yeah.
Lisa (01:51.543)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (02:00.855)
Hmm.
Chuck LaFLange (02:01.774)
Yeah, so.
Chuck LaFLange (02:06.35)
I'm trying to think of a nice witty segue into the whole trauma therapy thing and I think I didn't have one ready to go. Normally I don't. I'm an off the cuff guy. So I don't have a witty one except to say, I mean, Jesus, like there's a lot of trauma there, right? I mean, holding those secrets in, you know, is that a, you know, I don't know, Mike, speak to that.
Lisa (02:16.855)
Hahaha
Chuck LaFLange (02:33.486)
Save me, save me Mike, save me.
mike miller (02:37.332)
Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, based on the context of everything that you just said, yeah, like carrying stuff like, you know, I always I talk to clients about this all the time. And, you know, like this water bottle, this is not heavy. Right.
and I can hold it. And then what does my shoulder feel like in 10 minutes? Or what does it feel like in, you know, a year or two years or 10 years or 20 years? And this stuff, as we carry it, it starts to become quite debilitating for us physically, right? It has a knock-on effect on our nervous system, on our immune system. We start to feel more and more isolated. And then, of course, like that will lead to probably, you know, speculating, but I think it's in a general way,
and you get stuck in that cycle, right? That, you know, it goes back to that sort of moral model of addiction, which is like we're bad people, but.
We know that that's not the case because whenever I speak to my clients and they say, you know, I'm a terrible person because I was keeping these secrets. My response is always oh good and they say, what do you mean good? And I say, well a terrible person would never say that. So it's not a moral problem and the evidence is every single person I've ever worked with has guilt and shame about their behaviors to facilitate addiction, you know, for whatever reason. So, you know, keeping secrets is going to lead to more and more shame because you're living in conflict with your values.
is going to lead to more and more need for relief. You know, and it's more use and more shame and more use and more shame and more fear and more isolation and you know more anxiety because you know it just goes on and on and on right. So to be able to actually say I'm getting on or sorry getting off of this like merry-go-round of insanity takes so much courage because you know you said oh there's so much to lose if you don't reach out for help but there can also be a lot to
mike miller (04:32.598)
reach out for help because you don't know what people's responses will be, you've never done it before, there's all this fear about like will I be rejected, etc etc. So it's like it really feels like a lose-lose proposition. It's like I can't go on using and I can't, I don't know how to move forward in a way.
Chuck LaFLange (04:33.55)
Mm-hmm. Yep, yep.
mike miller (04:52.244)
where I'm getting honest about it because I'm so afraid of what the consequences will be if I actually do get honest. So it's like, yeah, it's a super, super scary position to be in. And I know I lived with for all intents and purposes, a common law wife. We lived together for about six years and I was using behind her back, but she didn't know about using at one point and then.
Lisa (04:58.167)
Hmm.
mike miller (05:14.964)
you know, then I got clean and then when I would relapse and use again, I wouldn't tell her about it. And I would carry this burden. And it really like put a huge wedge in between us. Cause here's this person who's supposed to be like my single biggest source of support in the world that I can turn to because we're partners and we're going to spend our lives together and all of that stuff that goes with that. And all of a sudden, like, I can't even be honest about the pain and, and anxiety I'm experiencing every day is like a really tough situation. Right. And it feels super isolating.
Um, so yeah, I applaud anyone that can step up at that. Like it takes so much courage to it's kind of that like stepping off the cliff thing, right? Like you literally are just stepping off this cliff and going, I hope everything's going to be okay.
Chuck LaFLange (05:49.646)
Kennege.
Chuck LaFLange (05:54.286)
Yeah.
Lisa (05:56.471)
Mm-hmm. And I think like something I don't know if we've ever been explicit about, but is that whole relationship between if you feel shame for things, and I actually had a similar conversation to that effect, is it does speak to the fact that you do have good morals and good values. Because if you didn't, you wouldn't give a shit. You know? Exactly. Right? And...
Chuck LaFLange (05:58.51)
Kidding, eh? No kidding.
mike miller (06:21.364)
Yeah, you'd be a sociopath. Oh, stealing from people and stabbing them in the neck is OK.
Chuck LaFLange (06:24.238)
100%. Mike, actually, you interjected on one of my Facebook posts about that, right? Yeah.
mike miller (06:30.9)
Hmm. Probably.
Chuck LaFLange (06:33.198)
Yeah, yeah, you did. It was a really well-worded response to it, because I think you kind of went in with what I could be considered almost Orionism, if you will, with kind of a larger, kind of more intellectual abstract idea, and I asked you to kind of dumb it down. So, not that it was that hard of a thing to understand, it was just, you know... No? Oh, no? No? Yeah.
Lisa (06:52.183)
I feel like I did not see that. I did not see this post. Do you remember what it was or what it was?
mike miller (06:52.372)
$20 words.
Chuck LaFLange (07:00.43)
I don't remember what the... Oh, the real moral failure is treating it like it's a moral failure, right? Moral shortcoming or whatever, something like that, my meme. Yeah, yeah, something to that effect anyway, right? And then Mike jumped in with... Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a lot of memes and content to keep up with, so I understand how you could have missed that.
mike miller (07:02.324)
I don't.
Lisa (07:11.223)
Oh.
mike miller (07:17.396)
Yeah. Yeah, I hesitate.
mike miller (07:23.668)
Well, and I hesitate to weigh in on anything that can be like strongly opinionated on either.
Lisa (07:23.767)
Hahaha!
mike miller (07:31.892)
end of things because either people agree with what I say and then I don't need to or they don't agree and you're never really going to convince them anyway. So like social media is a thing where I'm like really gun-chai about wading into that stuff you know knowing that I'm the face of a trauma center so I can't like get triggered and sort of like engage with people in a way that's not um representative of how I want to be in the world and how I want uh
you know, clients to see me, even though like on Facebook, I have a fake name and I don't let clients find me and you know, my privacy settings are really high. I'm still like hesitant, but that that probably would have resonated me with me quite a lot because I rail against the moral model of addiction all the time because I think it's bullshit and it's even though you know, here we have a member of the medical community and it's funny, I interviewed a nurse today to come and work at the center potentially and we were talking about like how we see addiction even though we're not an addiction treatment.
and we see addiction as a symptom of trauma all the time. And I was talking about it, like even in the medical community that's supposed to view things from a medical or disease model, there's still the moral model in it where people like, oh, you're gonna be med seeking, you're lying, you're manipulating, you know, like the moral model is baked into society so deeply that even the medical community that's supposed, and not everyone obviously.
you know, present company excluded for sure, but you know, it's just so prevalent and it pisses me off because you're already feeling so isolated and you're already feeling so much shame about your own stuff that I don't need to be shamed by someone else for the fact that I'm not well, right?
Chuck LaFLange (09:12.878)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, without a doubt.
Lisa (09:13.079)
And I noticed that particularly like if somebody is admitted to hospital and they, you know, one of their primary struggles might be addiction-rooted or related. And then it's like they get a headache. And they're like, you know, I have a headache. And they'll almost over justify that like, like I'm not asking for, like, can I just get it like a Tylenol? But it's like seeing the way that they'll ask, it's like they're,
mike miller (09:16.052)
Cough
Lisa (09:43.031)
aware of and worried about and fearful that I'm going to be like, oh, like, you know, you're opiate seeking, aren't you? You know, and they're like, I like just an Advil, because you get an Advil, you know? Yeah, and it's sad. It's really sad.
mike miller (10:00.5)
I've experienced that. I've experienced that. Where I worked with an addictions doctor that you and I both know, Lisa. I worked with him and I had broken ribs. I went to go see a punk rock show and I was at the front against the wall and I got kind of stampeded from behind and broke my ribs. Yeah, and I'm too old for that shit. And so I broke my ribs. I went to him. This is a professional.
Lisa (10:08.887)
Oh yeah.
Lisa (10:18.583)
Oh my gosh.
mike miller (10:24.692)
that knows me that I work with, who's known me since the day I got clean, and I'm like justifying why I want some medication for broken ribs so I can go to work with him. And yeah, it's, you know, it's... I remember getting drug tested at a workplace and being scared to death that I would like...
pee hot and I was like, but I'm clean and I know I'm clean. I've been clean for years and I'm not going to be hot and you know, like and it's all because of back in the day, back in the day. I would have been guilty of something not because I'm a bad guy, but because of all the stigma and lack of resources and lack of supports you are left to your own devices and you have to do shady shit, which is also what supports the moral model is that there's a lot of crap behaviors that comes with addiction not because people are bad, but because they get forced into it. You know, there's a lot of systemic.
Lisa (10:51.991)
Yeah, isn't that crazy?
mike miller (11:16.534)
stuff at play in that too. But yeah, I always you know, there's an old saying, like, if you lose your wallet, an alcoholic would steal it and an addict would steal it and help you look for it or something like that. Like, and that's kind of
Chuck LaFLange (11:29.326)
Yeah, 100% that, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. True story, right?
Lisa (11:30.551)
Yep.
Lisa (11:34.167)
I think I've told the story on this show, right, about my brother and the vanilla bottle. Have I told that story?
Chuck LaFLange (11:40.91)
I don't think so. Let's hear it.
Lisa (11:43.191)
So this was like, this was 20 years ago or 20 something years ago. Um, and I was in grad school at the time. And I saw my roommate when I finished undergrad had decided she was going to move in with her boyfriend. And so I went into grad school and decided I'm just going to go home. Like it's, it's cheaper. Um, so I went back to living with my parents for a few years and my brother was also living there at the time. So we had like both been out of the home and then we had come back into the home. And, um,
This was like in his early days, I think even before we knew actually. And I had gone and bought some stuff to bake. And I, you know, got up the next day to go and bake these cookies or muffins or whatever the hell I was baking. And I'm like, where'd the vanilla go? Like I bought vanilla, I bought it yesterday. I put it in the cupboard and it's gone. And I mean, now I look back and laugh about this, but like I remember my brother and
Now I would be like, why are you so invested in helping me find the vanilla bottle? And he was like, oh really? Like, you know, I'll help you find it. And he was like up, you know, digging through the cupboard, looking for the vanilla bottle. Well, turns out he had poured the vanilla out and used the bottle to make a pipe. And he took the vanilla and then helped me look for the vanilla bottle. So, you know, I just, it's now I laugh about it. Like it's...
Chuck LaFLange (13:03.79)
And it's just a straight line from one to the other, right? There's no metaphors, there's no nothing. It's like a straight line.
mike miller (13:07.284)
Told ya.
Lisa (13:15.095)
Straight. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. But another thing that... Sorry, go ahead, Chuck.
Chuck LaFLange (13:18.638)
totally f-
Lisa (13:27.031)
No, I was just going to say, just in kind of following to, you know, what we're talking about, and something Mike just said brought this thought up for me. And I've seen this with my own brother, but then I also see it with just patients in general, like when they're not judged and when they're met by a physician. And I say physicians because they'll see me in a physician role and then they'll tell me about other physicians they're working with.
but they're shocked when they go to a clinic and they're treated well.
And part of me is happy that they're getting treated well, but there's also a part of me that is incredibly sad that they're shocked that they're treated well, you know? And I see a change, like, you know, and I mean, in the work that I do, because I don't do a lot of outpatient work, so I don't follow patients longitudinally over time. But of course, in my brother's story, like, you know, I've got the more longitudinal experience. And like, if I think back to ways he was treated,
at addiction medicine clinics, you know, 10 years ago, to the way that he describes being treated at clinics today. And like I've actually, my sister-in-law had recorded the way an admin was treating them at a clinic up in Edmonton somewhere between five and 10 years ago. And I mean, the way that...
mike miller (14:54.228)
And these are the people that are supposed to understand it. It's an addictions medicine clinic.
Lisa (15:01.911)
clinic, right? And I've heard the footage of the way that they were being spoken to, you know, and, and it's shocking and sickening. And again, thankfully, you know, today, like, I think they've had better experiences. But it's yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (15:22.19)
That is crazy. Something I've spoken about a few times on the show... Oh, sorry, Mike, if you don't mind. Was my trip to the emergency room with an abscess from injecting. Right? It was horrifying. This... And without telling the whole story. Again, and... But, you know, we do have new listeners every week. The triage nurse was yelling.
mike miller (15:22.324)
I've had a lot of experiences.
mike miller (15:29.204)
No, go ahead.
Chuck LaFLange (15:45.902)
Like it sounded like yelling of course, like to me I was, you know, hypersensitive to it of course. But like there was no doubt the entire waiting room could hear. When is the last time you injected methamphetamine? And then I was put into a jail style room, jail cell style room, you know. And I remember saying, you're not closing that fucking door, right? Like nah, not happening, right? I said, nope, right? I know what that feels like, right? And an hour and a half later I left without treatment. To make a very long story short, I left without treatment.
Lisa (16:12.023)
Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (16:16.302)
And with the pain in my arm doubling every 20 minutes, is what it felt like. It was excruciating, but I just could not handle it anymore. And I often say, if I was a more stigmatized, like I'm gonna say this, it's not as bad as it sounds. It's, I'm getting to a point. I'm a normal looking white guy. So somebody that's marginalized or stigmatized often, I can only imagine how that experience, right?
mike miller (16:18.452)
Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (16:45.678)
must have been for them or somebody that had spent more time in that life and being treated that way and like how horrible for me it was like you know I still had a lot of intrinsic resource relative to some some other people and you know I was able to kind of stand up for myself and say well fuck this but like somebody else who wasn't in that position I can't imagine right you know you know yeah horrible horrible situation there and it really woke me up to what's going on in the medical community right you know
Lisa (17:04.375)
Mm-hmm.
mike miller (17:16.372)
Thanks for watching.
And you guys know, I've talked about it with you guys personally. I don't know if we've ever touched on it on the show, perhaps. Like, I've done EMDR and trauma therapy with people on how they're treated by addictions professionals from doctors to therapists to interventionists to all kinds of these are the people that are supposed to get it, right? They're the people that are supposed to be like, oh, I understand. I have empathy because I understand what you're dealing with. And they still
come at it, you know, like.
this belief that if an addict's lips are moving, or how do you know an addict's lying, their lips are moving and all that kind of shit? And so when I went to treatment, and the place that I went to for all of its failings, it had some shortcomings for sure. One of the things that was really profound for me was that when I walked in, they said to me, while you're here, from this moment forward, your word is good with us until it's not.
Like doesn't matter what happened out there. It doesn't matter how full of shit you were out there. Who you lied to stole like whatever none of that matters from right now. Your word is good until it's not we're giving you your word back and I have that conversation with my clients all the time because for me it was really profound because the thing was my word wasn't good for that much before I got clean.
mike miller (18:39.796)
You know, I had, you know, not because I was a bad person, but because I had a lot of bad behaviors to facilitate my using, people couldn't trust me. I mean, I didn't trust me, right?
And so I always talk to clients about that and say, you know, from this moment forward, I'm just going to trust you until you show me that I shouldn't. And some people might well, in the addictions world, some people might think it's naive, right? Like that I'm supposed to. And I tell people I didn't sign up to be a parole officer, a probation officer, a babysitter, a jail guard, like none of that stuff like that. None of that's my role. And I also tell people like, you know, and even though my job is to like,
Lisa (19:03.735)
I love that.
mike miller (19:23.638)
read people, part of my job anyway, is to be able to read people and attune to them. Like you can fool me.
I'm not going to come into this with a suspicious sort of mindset that I'm going to catch you doing something wrong. I'm not interested in it. When I was a medical monitor and had, you know, I would have medical professionals that if they wanted to go back to work, they had to come and see me to do monitoring and, you know, do biological testing so that they could return to the workplace if they had substance use disorders. And I had one nurse say to me, you're trying to catch me using. And I said, I'm a guy in recovery. I'm trying to prove that you're clean.
I'm not coming at it from that point of view of I'm trying to catch people out. I'm just not interested in it and I would rather have someone fool me and you know at that point we can adjust where the trust levels are at then to come out and be like I'm just not gonna believe what you say especially at a trauma center when how many times in your life you know we're just talking about the medical experiences with that stuff how many times in your life have because of your substance use or because of whatever your behaviors are people
Chuck LaFLange (20:00.974)
Hey
Lisa (20:01.047)
Hmm.
mike miller (20:30.678)
don't trust you or you know maybe you just grow up in a family system where you're not validated and not trusted and I'm just not gonna replicate any of that stuff so I think some people might think I'm naive in how I do it you know after working with people with substance use disorders for 20 years and I'm just like you know what for me it was hugely like this place I got clean at I remember I went down to the office one day and I said oh we need paper towels in the paper towel dispenser in the kitchen upstairs and then I went
Lisa (20:40.311)
Mm-hmm.
mike miller (21:00.598)
and he like handed me the keys to it. And I remember being like, oh my God, nobody gives me the keys to anything. Like what? And it was this like really, I mean, all that was in there was like cans of beans and shit, you know? Like it was like, and it wasn't a bunch of valuable stuff, but just the fact that they trusted me, I wasn't going to, no, that came later, which should never have, but.
Lisa (21:05.335)
Hmm.
Chuck LaFLange (21:07.726)
Hehe
Lisa (21:22.807)
the keys to the med clinic yet.
mike miller (21:29.364)
But no, like the thing was like I wasn't gonna let them down with that. You know what I mean? It's not like I was thinking about pocketing the beans anyway, but you know what I mean? Like it was important to me. It was like, okay, you've given me my word back. Now that I have it, I'm gonna value it. And I appreciated it very much.
Lisa (21:47.607)
And this is like a silly side story, but just, I feel like it, as you're talking about this, this situation came up in my mind. And I think it just speaks to how desperately as humans, not only do we want validation, but we want people to trust us and believe us, is with my six-year-old. Like she was telling me a story this past week about something that had happened at school with like friends and you know.
I have a six-year-old who's very expressive and talkative. Like I know everything that goes on in that school. I know every kid who stepped out of line and got yelled at and all the rest of it, which is kind of funny. But she's telling me this story. And then she just looked at me and like, and this is a little kid who I'm very aware to try to be like, to validate her, right? Like she has an emotion, I validate the emotion. And she's telling me the story and she's like, mom, do you believe me? And I was like, yeah.
course I believe you, you know? And I don't even really know where that question came from. You know, maybe she was telling me a pile of bullshit and wanted to know if I was going to believe it. But again, I felt like the right answer in that moment was, yeah, like why wouldn't I believe you? You know? And it's just, I think, human beings, I think we just, we're all the same in a lot of ways, right? Whether you're six years old and innocent.
or whether you're 46 years old and have done a lot of bad shit in your life, like we all are looking for the same things, right? So.
mike miller (23:19.7)
Virginia satir would call it universal earnings right love be loved respect be respected power you know belonging these kind of things and yeah I believe that's true and I'm glad that that was your answer to your kid it's important
Lisa (23:34.295)
Yeah, thank you. I do appreciate your validation on that. Like, I've got a trauma therapist telling me I did the right thing. Thank you. It feels good.
Chuck LaFLange (23:37.518)
Right? Yeah.
Oh, here we go.
Are we?
mike miller (23:45.908)
I was taught.
Because I've said like, oh my, I would be so afraid to be a parent because I'd be so afraid to like make a misstep or something. And I was taught, I don't know where it's quantified or anything or how you would quantify it. But if parents just do good enough, 75% of the time, that's good enough. Like it doesn't have to be perfect. You know what I mean? But I think that so many clients that I have their parents will drop like what would to them would be like sort of a throwaway line to them. Like it's not this big.
Lisa (24:07.127)
Yep. Yeah.
mike miller (24:17.91)
impactful thing to them, but the client will sit there. And I've sat in a family session with a parent, what the son has said, when I was nine years old, you said that thing, and the parent's like, I didn't say that, but it's like informed his whole life and all of his relationships and how he can trust people and everything, you know, so to be able to say, yeah, of course I would believe you, why wouldn't I believe you, I think is like one of those moments where it's like, I can reinforce that you're a trustworthy person, you're a believable person, and I think that that's important.
Lisa (24:28.087)
Mm-hmm. Exactly. And you never know what those moments are either, right? You never know what those...
Chuck LaFLange (24:45.582)
It's funny.
Lisa (24:51.639)
little moments are going to be that seem insignificant to us as an adult and are not insignificant to them as you know. And I don't think it's always just a parent-child thing or a child-adult thing, but again you just never know what's going to be really significant to someone. And actually Chris this makes me think of a story that you've shared about a situation where something was really monumental to you that your mom doesn't really remember.
Chuck LaFLange (24:52.174)
Hmm.
Chuck LaFLange (25:20.686)
And actually Mike and I talked about that in our session. And Mike, thank you. I know you would never bring that up. But I was just thinking, hey, take two, I've got a witty segue. Look at this. So if I can make up for earlier and not put the pressure on for Mike here. But yeah, we did. There was one of those moments, Lisa, and I did talk about it with Mike. And I'm not going to get into that right now. This isn't the.
the proper place for that, but yeah, something that happened in my youth. Mom doesn't even remember it. And I can't fault her for that, right? There was a lot of shit that happened in my youth, and if mom remembered it all, she'd be a fucking client at the Yachter Trauma Center in a hurry, I'm sure. So like, I can't fault her for it. I put it like, I didn't say, and the more I embrace, you know, recovery and my sobriety, the more I think about someone like, wow, hey, like, and.
I left home at a very young age. I gave her plenty, right? I gave her a 25-year-old worth of shit by the time I was 14, because I was a handful to say the least, right? That said, back to the Segway piece here. Back to Yasha, that's what we're here to talk about, Mike, is Yasha. And I think, I'll start off by, kind of my experience when I got there, and maybe this is a great way to do this, because...
It's an easy way to explain how you do things, right? And why you do things the way that you do, right?
mike miller (26:53.3)
Can I take you up?
Chuck LaFLange (26:58.03)
Hmm? No?
mike miller (26:58.388)
Sorry, can I take you up on the opportunity you said earlier to have a quick break because I'm hot because I just noticed something I muted my microphone. As I was coughing and it comes up as the MacBook Pro microphone as I mute it it's not on my AirPods so i'm wondering if I leave if I leave and come back in, can I then set the microphone to and then I can have my aircon back.
Chuck LaFLange (27:06.606)
Okay.
Lisa (27:19.383)
Mm-hmm.
Chuck LaFLange (27:20.046)
That's the difference. This was the leather chair effect. If I gotta cut out that fucking leather chair noise through the first half of this episode, oh my fucking God. All right. Hey. So, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna tell Lisa about it here. So, the episode Mike and I did, where he's, go ahead and leave and come back, or you wanna hear this, right? Okay. I go to record or go to edit it, and all I can hear is that fucking chair.
mike miller (27:32.34)
Okay, I'm gonna...
Chuck LaFLange (27:48.718)
through the entire thing, I can hear this goddamn chair so loud every time he moves, right? It was like plastic on plastic. It was just this horrible fucking god-awful noise, right? I had to go through every second of the episode and like I couldn't get rid of it as a background noise. I just, there's no, wasn't happening. There's no fucking way. So I had to go, it took me fucking hours and hours to edit that episode. So, and that's what it was.
Lisa (27:51.287)
Oh really?
Lisa (28:07.799)
Oh, man.
Chuck LaFLange (28:12.91)
He was on his fucking laptop. But afterwards he's like, no, I'm pretty sure. I'm like, no, something fucking changed, Mike. This isn't your first appearance on the app. Let me tell you. Something was very, very different. So now I think that the first half might be inundated with leather chair fucking noise. And if it is, I'm gonna fucking cry because we didn't even start till one o'clock in the morning. So yeah. Yeah.
Lisa (28:32.023)
thing he's worth it. He's worth the leather chair.
Chuck LaFLange (28:34.702)
Yes. Holy shit, there's a difference, eh? And is your aircon on now, Mike?
mike miller (28:39.063)
Let's see.
mike miller (28:49.175)
It's just kicking on. I'm just going to direct it. Me.
Chuck LaFLange (28:51.054)
Oh, okay.
Lisa (28:53.271)
Isn't that funny though that none of us thought it might have been the sore, like what microphone he was using.
Chuck LaFLange (28:58.158)
I think I might have.
mike miller (28:58.903)
it's usually just automatic, right? Even when I came back in this time, it automatically connected to it.
Lisa (29:04.183)
Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (29:04.526)
So it's funny, yeah.
mike miller (29:06.455)
Is it still there? Tell me it's not still there.
Chuck LaFLange (29:09.582)
Okay, stop talking all of a sudden. Nope, you're good, yeah, it's blinking. Yep, yep. Fuck sakes. Right? God, oh, I'm so afraid of the first half now. Okay. Fuck. I'm gonna have to move my set up into the bedroom because it's gonna be a long night. I don't know, yeah, I should have, I should have guessed that early on, right? Yeah, anyway, anyway. So.
mike miller (29:14.583)
Okay, beautiful.
mike miller (29:19.447)
I'm just grateful I get to have the aircon.
Lisa (29:27.351)
Live and learn.
Chuck LaFLange (29:38.798)
Uh, let's.
mike miller (29:38.807)
Well, we tried all the settings for the AirPods. I didn't, it never occurred to me that it would be, had defaulted to the MacBook.
Chuck LaFLange (29:44.75)
Not the AirPods. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. Oh, shoot, I thought I hit stop recording. I didn't. Okay, so I have to go back and find this. Voice note. Where's the voice note?
mike miller (29:58.103)
Ahem.
Chuck LaFLange (29:59.726)
There used to be a voice note, but they keep changing and adding features to this.
mike miller (30:02.679)
and Cat wants out.
Chuck LaFLange (30:05.198)
Ah, Mark Clip, oh there it is, okay. Okay, okay. So now we're gonna go back.
Chuck LaFLange (30:14.51)
Okay, so we're about to speak. Okay, okay. Are you ready to go?
mike miller (30:20.663)
You're going to go back to the like segue thing.
Lisa (30:20.695)
I think you're gonna go in.
Chuck LaFLange (30:23.438)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so when I got there, right? So, okay. All right. So when I got to Yatra, I mean, first, I tell this kind of as a funny kind of anecdote from when I talk about my experience there. One of the first things said to me was, you don't have to worry about not liking spicy food, you're at a fucking trauma center and lunch will not be stressful, right? And it, but to me, and it is such a little thing and maybe kind of a stupid thing to focus in on.
But not really, not when that's setting the tone for what's about to happen, right? And obviously it's not a stupid little thing because it was impactful enough for me to have mentioned it 500 times. And you know, in the two months since I was there, in the three months since it was said to me, right? And it does speak a lot to the experience. So right off the bat, I don't know how long it was before we had a session together, Mike, in your office, a few days for sure. I don't know.
how long for sure but
mike miller (31:23.575)
I think he came in over the weekend maybe or something, but yeah, a couple of days.
Chuck LaFLange (31:28.014)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But right away, you know, the yoga's kind of the first thing you experience, I experienced anyway. Which would say when you're a middle-aged fat guy, that was pretty stressful in its own way, but not stressful, it was hard. And hard isn't necessarily bad. Let me tell ya, yeah. I remember looking at, I can't remember who the, who the fill-in, I can't remember his name. Oh, that's, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
mike miller (31:53.719)
That's that critical part.
Chuck LaFLange (31:57.934)
I'm sorry, I can't remember his name. Justin, Justin, I really like Justin. Actually, I'd like to get him on the show one of these days, yeah, Justin, yeah. I remember looking at him saying, I am not your friend on the second morning, right? When I got there, I'm like, we're not friends. Don't think we are. I hate you. And I didn't mean it, because actually, yeah, he was filling in for Carrie while she was, yeah. Really great guy, like a great guy. Sidebar.
mike miller (31:59.255)
Justin.
mike miller (32:03.063)
Justin, yeah. Yeah.
Lisa (32:16.247)
Was he the yoga teacher?
mike miller (32:20.215)
He was a felon.
Lisa (32:22.903)
Okay.
Chuck LaFLange (32:26.958)
Justin showed me a picture of himself while he was still using and drinking back in the day. And he was like 100 pounds heavier than he is now. He's a fat guy. But I remember looking at that and like, okay, get your shit together, right? Like if he can do this, if that's who he was then, you're no different. Just suck it up and start doing this thing, right? And I won't say that that was the day that I started participating 100%, but it certainly got me a lot closer and I still think about it now.
Right? Because like Justin is ripped, right? He's in really good shape. He's a yogi, right? So like, you know, he's a pretzel, right? With muscles. So like, you know, right? Like, there was a lot of inspiration that came from that. And I guess that speaks to the entire, right? And I guess that speaks to the entire recovery thing, right? Because you need inspiration from people that have done it and whatever. Um.
But we're right away into the yoga, the mindfulness, meditation, was all like the first couple days. And Mike, if you can kind of explain why that happens, why it takes a couple days to get into a session with you, and you've explained it to me, but maybe to the watchers and listeners. Right?
mike miller (33:41.783)
Well, I mean part of it comes down to scheduling because if you happened to come in on a day when you Were scheduled to see me you would see me right away, but it's what would happen in that session and why? So basically if we look it's it's nervous system stuff, right? So this is a lot of what we do is informed by the poly bagel theory. So Just for anyone who's listening who hasn't heard me ramble on
Chuck LaFLange (33:53.326)
Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah.
mike miller (34:10.839)
the stuff before. Essentially, like our nervous system is a system. And people don't like we say that, but we don't actually take it into consideration a lot. We think like that our body is one thing and our brain is a different thing. But when people are in heightened states of activation from trauma or chronic stress, and I mean, what chronic stress is usually is just the result of trying that the symptoms are the same, right?
anxiety, whatever, when our nervous system is hyperaroused, we don't necessarily have access to our cortex because when we're in a stress response, that stress response is now, I'm not a neuroscientist, but I was trained by a neuroscientist, so I'm going to get this the best I can. The amygdala is largely responsible for the stress response.
That's in my brain. So if I'm seeing or hearing or getting some form of stimulus that's telling me that I should be stressed, that I might be in danger, like how does that message get to my body? Because when you think about what the responses are to that stuff, elevated heart rate, breathing is changing, pupils are dilating, hairs standing up on back of my neck, my...
I'm getting adrenaline and cortisol flooding through my body and a lot of oxygen into my blood, pumping to my major muscle groups so that I can fight or I can run. You know, like 1,400 changes in the body during a stress response. How is that happening? Well, the vagus nerve is a 10th cranial nerve and it goes from our brain to essentially all of our organs. And it's, why it's called the polyvagal theory is because there's two branches to the vagus nerve.
One is what they call the old non-myelinated vagus, which basically just means like, myelination just means it's like a coaxial cable. Like it's like a nerve that's like wrapped in.
mike miller (36:17.623)
I guess. But the old Vegas nerve isn't myelinated and all sort of animals have that, like even down to like lizards, right? We share that with like all kinds of different animals. And the myelinated Vegas is one that is relatively new as far as evolutionary stuff. So it was probably like a few million years old only or something, but we don't share that with other sort of like what people would consider to be lower.
animal species or whatever. But what it does is it sends messages from our brain, oh, this is dangerous, to like our kidneys, to the adrenal glands, release adrenaline. There's sensors in our lungs for it. They say, start breathing, get that oxygen in, and your heart speeds up, and it's like, pound that blood out to your major muscle groups. And it's all messages that are sent through the nervous system, right? So.
If I'm living in a state of hyper arousal because I'm constantly in threat, because maybe where I live isn't safe in some way, whether that's physically not safe or emotionally not safe. Because when you look at it through time, the fight, flight, freeze response has been around forever, but it used to be for legitimate life threats, right? Like a warring tribe throwing spears at us.
or a saber-tooth tiger at the cave door or whatever. When there was a threat, my body needed to mobilize so that I could fight off that threat. Now here's what happens is all of that energy goes to survival and our body shuts down other sort of non-crucial mechanisms during that survival time. So it's not gonna waste any energy on things like procreation or digestion. You know, like so many trauma people.
people that have experienced trauma come to me and they go, yeah, I have irritable bowel syndrome. I have Crohn's disease. I have stomach problems. And it's like, yeah, when you're in a stress response, you've got food in your stomach and your body's saying, I'm not wasting energy digesting that right now. And it messes up the whole sort of system, right? That's a very simplistic way to put it. But it's really true. It's quite a common phenomenon. So it's all connected as a system. Now, nowadays like that
mike miller (38:39.351)
threat that we're perceiving might be like, well, I'm keeping a secret from my partner and they're coming in now, oh my God, are they gonna know? Are they gonna see it? Are they gonna hear it in my voice? It could be like, oh, I'm late for a deadline. It could be, how am I gonna pay the rent? Don't get me wrong, that can obviously be a pretty serious threat if we can't pay the rent, but it could be like everything that can be from trivial stuff to not a worrying tribe coming at us with spears. So.
We've never evolved out of that response. And if I'm sitting in addiction, the chances are that my nervous system is like pretty activated, either hyper aroused, where I'm like an engine on, or hypo aroused, where I'm like lethargic, don't have energy, easily overwhelmed, that kind of stuff. And if my nervous system is constantly in this sort of state of arousal, then.
how am I ever gonna feel safe and get well? And so then someone comes in and goes, oh, I don't really like spicy food. And to me, that's not a trivial thing. That is absolute safety because it's one of your chorus most basic needs is to be able to eat and feel safe and be cared for and know that we're gonna take care of you and know that you're being heard and you're validated and you're important. So when you say, I don't want spicy food, it's like, okay, that person doesn't get spicy food.
period, like let's take care of that. Let's let this person know that they're being cared for because lots of times in their lives, potentially they wouldn't have been cared for by people who are supposed to be taking care of them. This goes back to the talk about the medical community. If I go there and you're a person in a position of power and you're supposed to be taking care of me and you don't, that's a massive betrayal. And it's a huge wound and then.
you know, maybe my parents do that. Like, you know, this comes, could possibly come from like really early days, like kids should be seen and not heard. Oh, don't be silly. You'll eat what I give you, like, you know, which I'm not saying there's necessarily anything wrong with that. I think part of it is the delivery and how it goes where kids can get a message that they're not important. So when you walk in the doors at Yatra, you're important. Your needs are important. And we're going to, it's not about my needs. I love spicy food, but I'm not going to make you like eat spicy food because I like it. This is like,
mike miller (41:03.319)
patient centered care, right? Like this is about what your needs are. So to me, that's not a trivial thing. That's a very big thing. Now, why do we go into the yoga and all of that like really quickly in the mindfulness? So this autonomic nervous system activation. So this is stuff you can't control. Like you can't think, oh, I'm gonna calm myself down. You also don't think, oh, there's a threat, I'm gonna get activated. This is your nervous system.
reading the environment for threats and then responding accordingly. Whether you fight, flight, freeze, whatever, like you don't choose that. Your nervous system chooses that it's autonomic, which basically just means automatic, right? The, the autonomic nervous system, the ANS and some people call it. There's a really good video on it. Um, and, uh,
because the vagus nerve is connected to all of your organs, including your lungs, the lungs are the only part of the autonomic nervous system that you actually can control. So if you're breathing longer exhales than inhale, so I always teach people four, four, eight breathing. Breathe in for four, hold for four, breathe out for eight.
mike miller (42:20.343)
Those sensors in your lungs for the vagus nerve are sending messages via that nerve to your brain that say, hey, look how chill it is. Like, look at how relaxed I am. There's no threat here. And it can, you slow your breathing, it slows your heart rate, and it can reverse that whole arousal cycle. So everything that we do that's sort of what people consider holistic, and we would consider to be somatic, this is a bottom-up treatment. It's using our bodies to change our brain.
Breathing is like the ultimate hack for the nervous system. If we can slow your breathing and we can reverse that arousal cycle so that you can feel safe and calm in your body, your prefrontal cortex comes back on, and then you can sit in therapy sessions, including cognitive behavioral therapy. Like a lot of places, you know, even places that I've worked, like day one, they're getting into cognitive behavioral therapy. And it's like, your brain isn't even online yet. Like what?
that to me it's like, there's an order of operations that we wanna follow. First thing, safety in the body. All the trauma literature will tell you, you can't recover from trauma if you're not feeling safe in your body. You can't. If you're hyper aroused, you're not gonna relax. You can't feel safe, you can't. Safety allows for proximity to others. Proximity allows for contact. Contact allows for social bonds. And social bonds are really important for us to be able to survive and thrive.
And it's baked right into our DNA because, you know, from ancient times, we know that we will survive better as, as a, if we're connected to other people. So you know, that stuff's really important. So that is a really long ranty sort of way that's all over the place to say, why do you do yoga on day one? Why do you do yoga in the morning? Mindfulness in the afternoon? Like why is there so much of that stuff? Why do you get group sessions of that? Why do you get individual sessions of that?
Why are you doing breath work? Why are you doing progressive muscle relaxation? Why are you doing ice baths? People think ice baths are a weird thing maybe to have at the trauma center, but ice baths is another good way to hack your nervous system because if I was to plunge you into the North Atlantic sea, your brain is gonna go, oh, we're gonna lose all of the heat from the warm blood in our body if we send it out to the extremities of our arms and legs and fingers and toes. So we're gonna slow down that heart rate.
mike miller (44:45.975)
So we're not pumping all that warm blood through our body and it restricts blood vessels. And so if we put you in an ice bath, it's sort of tricking your body into thinking that you're gonna be stuck, that you could become hypothermic. And so it slows down your heart rate as well. So it's another good hack. So all of these things are designed to regulate the nervous system so that then we can get the cortex back online and then we can start doing the top down therapies. And.
Yeah, so that's basically a long way to answer your question of why yoga on day one.
Chuck LaFLange (45:18.094)
Okay.
mike miller (45:21.847)
Sorry, it's the Ramble.
Chuck LaFLange (45:22.19)
Go ahead Lisa.
Lisa (45:22.327)
And even Mike, like, I mean, I loved all of that. There's, we covered a lot of stuff in there, but even, you know, not everybody has ice baths, right? But you can even fill a bowl, take a bowl that you, you know, bake your muffins in, fill it with water, put a bunch of ice cubes in there, and you can actually submerse your face in it. And that can, yeah, right. And that can also help to sort of
mike miller (45:45.591)
Yeah, or a sync.
Lisa (45:51.543)
regulate people who are super distressed. So for example, you can't engage in cognitive behavioral therapy if you're completely dysregulated because you need access to your frontal cortex to do cognitive behavioral therapy. So if you're in this really emotional dysregulated, you know, it's just off the chart. You can't sit down and do a thought record. But that's where, you know, yeah, if you can do breathing, if you have an ice bath, perfect. But if you don't,
fill a bowl, stick your head in a bowl of icy water. And that can help to sort of bring you down to the point where you can start to access your frontal cortex and yeah.
mike miller (46:32.407)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I always recommend either bowls or sinks of ice water if there are people not in care with us because I do a lot of outpatient or online work as well where people aren't in our care. Actually, Yatra exists because during COVID, I was seeing people online from all around the world and I would say, you know, it'd be really useful if you could do this kind of practice and they would say, yeah, that's kind of a big ask for me because I'm like locked in my apartment.
I don't have access to resources. I'm super anxious trying to get the momentum to get me to walk out and get ice cubes and fill a sink or, you know, to, to put on YouTube and start following some beginner yoga course by myself is like so incredibly difficult in such a big ask. And that's why I said when I got asked to go back and run the rehab that I was working at, I said, no, I'm just going to rent a facility.
And everything that I recommend that people should do in conjunction with my online psychotherapy is, oh, I'm just gonna bring that right to your door. Because if you can't do it at home, you might be able to do it if it's literally delivered to your door. And that's sort of where Yatra sprung from, was to make it a more comprehensive thing to help people regulate the nervous system, to be able to participate better in a lot of therapies. Now, some of the therapies we do like EMDR and IFS.
aren't necessarily top down because there's somatic stuff involved in it. But it's still obviously one of our goals is to have people people being comfortable and safe in their bodies. And from an addiction perspective, I don't know how many people I've heard whether it's through my long time in Narcotics Anonymous or working with clients. One of the things people say is like, I just didn't feel comfortable in my own skin. And do you know what I hear? Oh, you have an aroused nervous system.
And where does that come from? And that's, oh, I was born an addict. I've always felt separate from, I've never felt comfortable. It's like, oh, that sounds like trauma symptoms to me. And if it's been around for a long time, it probably comes from adverse childhood experiences. Yeah, so it's really important to get that regulation going on out of the gate.
Lisa (48:29.815)
And it just speaks to how holistic Yatra is in my mind. You know, like that's what I hear, right, is about. Because yeah, I think sometimes when people go see a therapist, it's like, it's treated like there's like, oh,
Chuck LaFLange (48:41.838)
Just kidding, eh? No kidding.
Chuck LaFLange (48:47.534)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (48:59.127)
there's one thing, we're going to fix the one thing. But it's, it is so much bigger than that. And so it just speaks to, I think, how holistic Yatra is, and also how it's, it's, it's really trying to get at the root of people's struggles. And it's also teaching them skills that are going to forever help them. You know, because I feel like even if you are somebody who had like a
perfect childhood and then experienced a trauma when you were 40 and you are truly there because you have this one isolated trauma, I think having skills around, you know, breathing and being able to regulate yourself, it's going to make your whole life better and easier, right?
mike miller (49:40.919)
Hmm, for sure. And like, we know this actually, like if you think about through the span of your life, if you're watching media, or if you've ever experienced it, anyone who's like, even if you're in sports and someone gets hurt or something where they always say, okay, breathe, take a deep breath, like it's the go to thing that we all sort of like intuitively know helps people to like relax and calm down and everything. And yet it's not intentional.
I think a lot of the times like we don't go, oh, this thing that's free that I do all day, every day and all night, every night that I can just access at any time is actually super important and can be really therapeutic because we don't learn any of that stuff, right? So yeah, I think it gets downplayed because it's not some magic pill. But the reality is it's like regulating your nervous system allows you to feel safe in your body. And it's so
so important because so many people don't experience that.
Chuck LaFLange (50:40.814)
The breathwork thing is funny. It had been mentioned to me, I don't even know how many times before visiting Yatra. Dozens, hundreds maybe, I don't know. Especially during that first year of sobriety before I got to Yatra, and PTSD had really started to take an increasingly big role in my life, it seemed, right? At least for the first six months.
mike miller (50:50.775)
Mm. Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (51:08.398)
It just kept getting worse, like it just wouldn't get better. Nothing it does on its own, right? Let's try, I might try and tell myself that by never going to a doctor. Literally never if you ignore a problem, it goes away. That is not the case with trauma. It might be the case with diabetes. It's not the case with trauma. I'm kidding.
Lisa (51:18.839)
Mm-hmm.
Chuck LaFLange (51:34.286)
It's the one thing I wish I would have listened to. I'm just kind of, you know, yeah. With the trauma though, it's one of those things that I wish I would have listened to much earlier on. And mom, if you're listening to this, I know you will eventually. I know if you were right, I was wrong, okay? Because that's one thing mom's been on me for years about, is breath work, right? And she was right. She was 100% right.
mike miller (51:35.191)
I was going to say, I'm not sure that's the case with diabetes.
Lisa (51:36.983)
No, I don't think so.
Lisa (51:41.975)
Nice try.
Chuck LaFLange (52:02.03)
And it's also the thing, and you touched on this already Mike, it's free, you do it all day, all night. Now, you know, it's been two months since I left, two months tomorrow since I moved into this race. Three months tomorrow or two months tomorrow? Two months tomorrow since I got here, since I moved into this place. And it's, that is the thing that I find myself doing often and all the time. It's the easiest thing to take with you, right?
I told myself I was gonna do yoga on my own. Yeah, that hasn't worked out, right? I told myself I'd figure out ice baths and I'd go, I'd find a pool that I could go to. They don't really have public pools, they're not that I'm aware of anyway. But I can breathe and I can do that with intent and I can do it often and as often as I like. And it is something that I've certainly taken with me, right? Yeah, yeah, right.
Lisa (52:38.423)
Thanks for watching!
mike miller (52:53.655)
And you can do it in a room full of people and you can do it like, you know, it's not like some, like, Hey, you know, first of all, I think I would definitely encourage you to continue doing the yoga. Um, get back into that, whatever that looks like, come out to Yatra. You know, like once someone's been with us, we kind of say, like, you're part of the family, it's not, we're not a service where it's like, Oh, thanks for your money, time's up, get out. Like that isn't kind of how we operate. Right. Um, well.
Chuck LaFLange (52:56.174)
Yeah, right.
Chuck LaFLange (53:16.046)
Careful with.
Careful what you say, I like your smoothies. Right? Yeah, right? Oh. Hahahaha. Oh, fuck. Hahahaha.
mike miller (53:24.663)
Oh, smoothies aren't included. No, I'm just kidding. Well, smoothies are important too, right? Good nutrition, that stuff is important.
Lisa (53:30.967)
Free yoga but no smoothies for you.
Chuck LaFLange (53:37.23)
Yeah. Oh, and they're so good. Oh my lord. Yeah, yeah. I still haven't found a good connect for those here.
Lisa (53:38.935)
Yeah.
mike miller (53:44.247)
Yeah, I love them too.
You might have to make the drive out sometimes. But yeah, I think those practices are so important to carry forward. And I'm glad that you're doing the breath work and you can do it anywhere. You know, it's like, like I say, I encourage you to do the yoga. But like if you're feeling stressed out, like in a bank, like what are you going to do? Downward dog in the bank? Like, you know, it's probably not going to be, you know, you're probably...
Chuck LaFLange (54:11.086)
I was just gonna say middle-aged fat white guy doing yoga in a room full of people is gonna get weird. So
mike miller (54:17.975)
So I'm gonna encourage you, I'm gonna encourage you to have that critical part of you lay off the fat word, if possible, it's not kind to yourself. And I understand that when we have critical parts of ourselves that say that.
Lisa (54:19.671)
real fast.
Chuck LaFLange (54:30.19)
Yes.
Chuck LaFLange (54:33.966)
I know. I said it twice and I was like, he's gonna dial in on it. I know he's gonna say it. I know he's gonna say it. I know he's gonna.
mike miller (54:40.439)
Yeah, of course. But like I ended, the part is critical because it wants us to appear right. I have that part and it says to me, Oh, you're fat, you're overweight and all that kind of stuff. Um, and it's because it wants me to, uh, present well so that people can't judge me for my appearance and that kind of stuff. So that the intention is good. The application is unkind and can be quite hurtful, I think sometimes. So we want to appreciate that part of you for, um, you know,
the work that it wants to do to protect you and keep you safe, it's just like, could we do it in a different way?
Chuck LaFLange (55:11.854)
Yeah, yeah, you're right, you're right. Of course you're right, we know that. Of course it's.
mike miller (55:14.583)
If that makes sense. Sorry to put you on the spot there, but. I also want to point out that earlier when we were talking about the medical stuff, Lisa had said, like a part of me wants to do this and another part of me wants to do that. And I was like sitting here going, ah, the part.
Chuck LaFLange (55:31.694)
Well, there you go. Thank you for another Whitty Segway. So we can get back on track here. Because guys, it's been a while. We're not going to cut this off until we've covered what we want to cover. But we've got to make sure that we're keeping on track, right? So that's kind of the holistic part. I don't want to because of the therapy, the clinical therapy part is very much a part of this holistic thing that's happening. So those are kind of the outlying. I don't know how you want to define that.
mike miller (55:34.391)
which maybe is...
Lisa (55:35.127)
Which ones?
mike miller (55:47.543)
Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (55:59.694)
Those are all the stuff that happens outside of your office. Let's say that, right? There's a lot of things that happen outside of your office.
mike miller (56:05.239)
Yeah, but they're core parts of the program. What I don't wanna do is I don't wanna, what happens a lot, people value sitting down and doing therapy with myself or another therapist as like, well, this is what I'm really here for. When if you look at it for me, it's like, but if you don't do that, then this stuff is gonna be a lot less effective. It's a core part of the program that's equally as important. It's just, I'm the face of the place, so people.
Chuck LaFLange (56:07.246)
Yes, 100%.
Chuck LaFLange (56:26.19)
100%.
mike miller (56:32.695)
kind of do the thing where they put me at the top of a hierarchy of importance. But you get four hours a week with me. You literally could get three hours of holistic or four hours of holistic stuff a day. Right? So it's like, I'm a pretty small fraction, but also the psychotherapy stuff that we do in the office is really important, I think, because, um, going back to the nervous system and the perception that our brain can perceive threats.
Lisa (56:44.215)
Mm-hmm.
mike miller (57:01.463)
Why we don't do group therapy and why we don't do talk therapy is because our brains Perceive threats when there aren't sometimes and when I tell a traumatic narrative My brain can perceive that as happening again right now. So you know that an example of that would be like a nightmare I'm tucked in bed. I'm super safe. My brain thinks about scary stuff and my body responds to it
And so when I'm telling traumatic narratives, sometimes I can activate my nervous system and I can get really aroused by that. And you know, when people tell, you know, um, stories of, of pain and stuff, like you can see them get dysregulated sometimes. And I don't mean just in a therapy room. I mean, everywhere, like you can see people, you watch interviews with people where they're talking about, um, you know, tragic stuff that's happened and you watch them get dysregulated in the moment and their brain can think it's rehab there happening again, and they can be like,
reliving that and reliving things is a symptom of PTSD. So we don't do that stuff. With group therapy, think about like, if I don't feel safe to talk about my stuff or I don't feel safe because in my family of origin, if you spoke up about things, maybe you'd get criticized for it or something. Now you want me to walk into a room full of people I don't know and talk about all my deepest, darkest stuff, like that is not gonna feel safe for people.
And I've been in rooms, in rehabs, in group rooms, where there's always someone who won't speak very much. And what they do, like I've seen clinical teams brand them as resistant, defiant, they don't want to engage being called passengers in the treatment, you know. And that's what it looks like externally. So I'm not like trying to blame it, but from the point of view that I have that's trauma informed is like, that person just doesn't feel safe enough to engage in that room.
in a vulnerable way because they've probably been hurt by doing something like, you know, they've probably become vulnerable in the past and it's been used against them or they've been mocked or ridiculed or they grew up with like, you know, particularly men. Big boys don't cry. You want something to cry about, I'll give you something to cry about. You know, feelings are for girls, work hard, play hard, like all the bullshit toxic masculinity stuff that men get taught. Now I know women get taught things about women get vulnerable and then...
Lisa (58:53.847)
Thank you.
mike miller (59:20.823)
you know, get taken advantage of in those ways too. So I'm not saying it's specific to men. Yeah, oh, history on it, crazy. Yeah, for sure. If a woman is just assertive, she gets called a bitch. Like it's always like, you know, it's amplified. So if you just have feelings, yeah, it's like, oh, the drama and stuff, right? Oh, you're using your tears to get your way. It's manipulative and it's all, so we get taught.
Lisa (59:23.639)
or they're described as dramatic, you know? I feel like as a woman, it's like, yeah, yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (59:29.326)
Yeah.
Lisa (59:37.687)
Big time.
Lisa (59:41.975)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
mike miller (59:46.679)
We come from the factory with this range of emotions and along the way we get taught like, well, you can't have these ones, these ones, these, you're allowed to, you know, as a guy, I'm allowed to feel happy, hungry, horny, and angry. Like everything else is, you know, like for the week or some bullshit like that, pardon my language. Um, so, you know, group, group therapy, if those are the beliefs that I come from, or those are the systems that I come from, group therapy is not going to feel safe. Talk therapy can be re-traumatizing. So we do a lot of EMDR.
where you don't have to tell the narrative and you can process these memories. So you get relief from the present day triggers that they bring up. So EMDR shows three things will happen with traumatic memories. They become less vivid, harder to recall, which means they're not gonna be intrusive anymore. We get lots of reduction in nightmares flashbacks and intrusive thoughts, like pretty quickly sometimes. So...
less vivid, harder to recall and less disturbing. We're not erasing memories, we're not making sad memories happy. What we're doing, people report a lot that the memories feel farther away, they feel less clear, they're a bit blurrier, and they just don't have that like gut punch kind of quality to it anymore. And if I don't have a gut punch quality to a memory, say of being betrayed in the past, then I'm less likely to be triggered and feel less able to trust someone today. So,
We process the traumatic memories to help us deal with the present day triggers. And if I don't feel as triggered today, the chances of me running off and getting a bottle or a bag or whatever it might be are going to be a lot less. Right. So, um, it's, it's relapse prevention by doing that trauma treatment as well. In, in my, uh, thinking anyway, and then the internal family system stuff. Oh, sorry. And there's actually addiction specific protocols. Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (01:01:33.646)
Yeah, 100% without a doubt. Yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
mike miller (01:01:42.903)
There's addiction specific protocols where if I can go in the past and I can desensitize traumatic painful memories, I can also go in the past and desensitize euphoric memories or the positive affect of using something. So if I go, oh, what I got from that was like confidence and all of it, we can desensitize that so that it's like, I don't have necessarily super euphoric memories about using.
Again, they become farther away, they become less vivid, a bit blurrier, and then my triggers and cravings can be a lot less, so we can actually desensitize individual triggers, so say I have a client who goes, well, I wanna stop smoking. Like, okay, what are your triggers? They go, I don't really have any triggers, I just smoke. It's like, okay, so you wake up in the morning, that's a trigger. With your morning coffee, that's a trigger. After a meal, that's a trigger. Before you get in a car to go on a car ride, that's a trigger.
feel stressed out, that's a trigger. And then we use EMDR to individually target things like that, or if it's not smoking, and they're like, we'll say it's about heroin or cocaine or methamphetamine or whatever, it's like my neighborhood is a trigger, my family home is a trigger, my partner is a trigger, the stress work is a trigger, and then we can desensitize those so that they get less triggered when they go back into their environment. So there's like a lot of applications for it.
Chuck LaFLange (01:03:00.782)
That's really, that's interesting Mike. In our talk about EMDR, in the episode we did about it, Lisa kind of dialed in on that and she was like, oh hey, but you never explained in that episode, why you're able to do that. And it's just the reverse of the trauma stuff, right? And.
I think that's just like, that's really cool and really neat. And Lisa, I know you got something to say about this whole line. So, and I'll be honest, it's kind of why I interrupted him because I knew you got something. Right? You got something you want to ask. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa (01:03:34.519)
Yeah, no, I just love it. I mean, it makes sense when he says it, but I've never until I think it was the last time that we were with Mike that this had come up. And, you know, I was saying I was turned I was like doing the Ryan bounce, you know, I was like, Because it's something that I, I have not. I've just never heard about it. Like, you know, I know people who do EMDR and A.R.T. and it's always focused on, you know,
classic trauma. But it's like Mike said, the point is if you can utilize these skills and how they act on the brain to desensitize, then you can also desensitize euphoria, you know, because that's a huge thing is that people can remember, you know, and they
Chuck LaFLange (01:04:21.486)
Right? Yeah.
Lisa (01:04:27.575)
and it's rosy sunglasses and it's got a fantasy element to it when people are in early recovery, right? It's like they're like, oh, but just if I could only just one more time feel that feeling. And so it makes so much sense to me that, you know, when Mike describes it that, well, if we can desensitize the intensity of your memory around what the, how good that felt, then that's going to decrease your desire to go back to it. Like, I just think it's the most brilliant thing ever.
Chuck LaFLange (01:04:55.182)
It just seems so simple once now that it's been said, it's like, oh, yeah, of course, right? Now that now that you don't know until you know, right? So yeah. Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Lisa (01:04:57.527)
I love this.
Yeah.
And I've actually spoken to, there's a psychiatrist that I absolutely adore. She was one of my preceptors as a resident and she does ART. And I was talking to her about this and like, and she said, you know, she told me, now again, in the patient population she works with, it's not as many individuals with substance use disorders, but she said like, yeah, she's same thing, that there are protocols for it. And I just, my hope is that more, like if there are therapists watching this.
Like if that's not something that you know how to do, like man, go learn. Cause I'm like, refer to Yatra first. Right.
mike miller (01:05:36.919)
No, no, no, refer to Yatra. No, just kidding. No. Um, I, you know, I, I sit down with people all the time that have long storied, uh, uh, histories of therapy, um, and have been to treatment and I've done a lot and they go, Oh, what's the CMDR stuff that you talk about? And it's like, well, it's been around since the 1980s and so many people don't know about it, um, and all the applications. And I always kind of look at it and go like, you know, I grew up.
Chuck LaFLange (01:05:39.598)
Ha ha
mike miller (01:06:06.615)
punk rock, skateboarding, anti-establishment, kind of low brow, and it's like, well, let's just kind of, let's do it dirty. It doesn't have to be the classic traumas all the time. It's like, where else can we put this stuff, right? Where else can we use this if it works in these ways? And I think, we were talking before when we were talking about CBT and how we come up with core beliefs from CBT and how we then bring.
Lisa (01:06:21.079)
Hmm.
mike miller (01:06:33.335)
those core beliefs into EMDR and we desensitize memories that support those core beliefs so we can get relief from the core beliefs. So there's so many different applications for it that the other thing is because we see people quite intensively compared to, you know, if you go see a therapist, you're going to go maybe once a week and it's going to cost you a couple hundred bucks and you're going to, you know, day one you're going to do some.
Lisa (01:06:40.375)
Ha ha!
mike miller (01:07:00.887)
history taking EMDR is eight phases. So you're gonna do some history taking and some assessment and then you're gonna do some resourcing and you're not gonna get like, you're not into the processing of traumatic material until like weeks down the road. And by then you're like, well, I don't even know. Like, why aren't we doing EMDR? That's what people always say. Like if you're not like making their eyes move, they're like, why aren't we doing EMDR? Like, well, you are, but in an outpatient setting, you have to spend so much time resourcing somebody.
But we have all these resources surrounding people and we see them four times a week. So we can get into all these other applications in a more, it's like, it's just squished down in time. Basically, you take like a year of treatment for someone and you just go, whoa, and put it into like a month, right? And, you know, it gives us that ability to work in ways that you wouldn't be able to do in an outpatient setting. And that doesn't make us better. It just makes us different.
Lisa (01:07:39.919)
Mm hmm.
mike miller (01:07:58.423)
because the people that are working in those outpatient settings have all the skills and can do all the same work. They just don't have the luxury of being able to do it in a really intensive way like we do, which is why people seek us out specifically.
Lisa (01:08:10.423)
Well, and I think people get exhausted, right? People get.
Chuck LaFLange (01:08:10.478)
Mike, there is a specific that I want to ask about. Sorry, Lisa, I just want to jump on that for a second. Because we were talking about other therapists and whatever. I don't want to attack anybody's way of doing things. However, I do have to say, when I've mentioned EMDR to people,
Half the time, and I'm just off the top of my head, might be less, might be more, half the time, the experiences that the people that have had, that have had experiences with EMDR, have been the opposite of both what you've told me when we originally spoke about EMDR, my experience and what you're talking about now. Right, in that it has been quite invasive to them, it has not been a comfortable feeling, it's nowhere, nothing like the experience I've had.
And so we're not going to sit here and say that other people are doing it wrong. We're just going to talk about how you're doing it, right? And to address that, why, so rather than talk about specifics, okay, why is it not like that for you? Right? Yeah. Okay.
mike miller (01:09:18.263)
Well, I would just say one thing. Well, I would say because we maintain fidelity to the protocols. So in my experience, so the first level of EMDR training that I did, afterwards, after you do it, you can start practicing it right away. And myself and a colleague of mine, who's a psychologist from Australia, and now the two of us, we did the second level of training together, then we did the master class and structural dissociation of EMDR.
or of the personality, but using EMDR. We've done a bunch of like advanced trainings with it. And now we actually train psychologists in Australia in the addictions protocols. So we've kind of come up together and stayed together through this whole thing. When we went to the second level, we were like, oh my God, we're not, like we were practicing every day. Like we had clients all the time and we were practicing EMDR every day. And we thought.
we're not going to know it as well as these other people. They're going to be so advanced compared to us. And we got into the second level of training and there were like, the guy literally had to do a review of the whole level one, because there were people there that were like gathering trainings, collecting trainings, but not actually practicing it. And at that point I kind of clued in, I was like, oh, there's a difference between a therapist trained in EMDR and an EMDR therapist. And I think that it's very clunky at first when you start practicing it.
You're used to sitting across from someone and going, oh, Lisa, tell me about your mother or whatever. And then you go, oh, well, I hate my mother. And it's like, well, tell me about that. Could you expand on that? Tell me why you hate your mother. EMDR, you don't do that. You sit very close in a thing that's called ships passing in the night. So literally like a client is a foot in front of me and just to the side of me so that I can like move my hand in front of their face. It's like a really awkward thing.
The protocol is very, it's a very strict scripted protocol that you stick to. And I think what happens is because it's so counterintuitive to people that have been therapists for a long time, um, that you can actually, um, collude with the client in avoiding doing the EMDR sometime because you're more comfortable doing talk therapy because you've done it for a long time and I've seen it happen. And I felt it in myself at times and been like, no, no, I'm going to stick to this. And I think it just comes down to practice. That's part of it.
mike miller (01:11:40.951)
If you maintain fidelity to it, so EMDR is one of the most researched evidence-based therapies in the history of mankind. So what you're talking about is anecdotal evidence. That's a very small amount of people compared to the greater body of information out there. We know that it does the things that it says it does. And I would suggest that if you're not maintaining... Yeah, but if you're not maintaining fidelity to the protocol for whatever reason, but...
Chuck LaFLange (01:12:01.422)
Yeah, no doubt on my behalf.
mike miller (01:12:10.263)
That's also easy for me to say. There are also very complex cases out there. I have done, I've processed people's memories. Like literally someone comes to me and says, I have a memory of being sexually abused when I was a child. And by the end of one hour, when we get into the processing, like they tell me the disturbance level around that memory is at zero. Like that can happen in an hour, which to me when I first started was like, this is all bullshit. Like I can't believe it. Like they're just telling me what I.
they think I want to hear. Like I really was quite skeptical about it, but I keep replicating that. And it might be an hour. I've done two memories in one hour, but I've also done like one memory in like six hours. So, you know, someone might not be getting the results that you had right away because the case is a bit more complex or complex PTSD is also a lot different than PTSD because if I'm processing one memory of say, getting hit by my father,
but I have 250 of those memories, processing one isn't gonna give me the same amount to relief as if I was in one plane crash and then we process that. Like it's very different, like you gotta do the case conceptualization stuff about like what do we target first? You know, what's the, what are the orders that we target memories? And there is a thing called the generalization effect where if I've been,
Lisa (01:13:14.679)
Mm.
Chuck LaFLange (01:13:21.518)
Of course.
mike miller (01:13:38.519)
you know, say in six car crashes, if we process two or three of them, what happens a lot of time is the other ones we don't need to process because like we've desensitized that whole memory network around car crashes. So there's like, it can just vary so much, right? But I think my experience as a therapist and working with therapists, you know, doing consultation with other therapists and knowing about it is a lot of people aren't very confident in it.
And so they don't necessarily jump right into it or they do like an eclectic mix with EMDR where they're not staying strictly, they're not maintaining fidelity to the protocol. So they're like diverting a bit from it. And I think that would be my suspicion is either it's too complex for a really fast result and then people can get discouraged and go, well, I'm not getting the magic or the person maybe just isn't, yeah. Which is, you know,
Chuck LaFLange (01:14:24.846)
Okay. Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (01:14:31.374)
or somebody's just not sticking to the rules, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
mike miller (01:14:38.103)
Whatever, if they've been a CBT therapist for 30 years and they're getting good results with CBT, they're probably gonna revert back to their comfort zone because that's how they get good results. So I've seen lots of people, they're like, yeah, I was trained in it, I never really did it. So I was like, okay, I loved it, so I'm just gonna do it all the time. Ha ha ha.
Chuck LaFLange (01:14:47.854)
Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah, right.
Listen, listen, we are getting to a time cap here, unfortunately, because there's so much more we wanna talk about, which means, you're invited back, Mike. All right. Ah, damn, hey, damn. You know what, I love these conversations. You know what, I was gonna say something, but I'm gonna save it for my gratitude. Right, right? You're like, Lisa and I joked once.
mike miller (01:15:04.247)
Mm. Gah!
Lisa (01:15:07.607)
We're never gonna let you go.
mike miller (01:15:11.895)
Amen. I'll tell you. You invite me to a thing called the ramble.
mike miller (01:15:20.119)
It's on you. You invite me to a thing called The Ramble, it's on you.
Chuck LaFLange (01:15:23.566)
Lisa and I were joking once about how like you and I both have like really long text messages. Like we both ramble, right? Like you're like, you're my kindred spirit that way. So I totally understand the rambling, right? I absolutely do. So why don't we put a plug in it for now? I just peek behind the curtain. Lisa has a birthday party. She has to take my niece too. That's what we're calling her now, I guess. So we get to it, right? Absolutely. That's why we're gonna cap the time on this one.
Lisa (01:15:51.927)
Yep, I know, honorary Uncle Chris, as she calls him.
Chuck LaFLange (01:15:53.006)
I think that's true. You know what? I'm gonna speak to that really quick. As I cruise around and like, Mike I don't know if you've had a chance to really check out the riverfront since you've been in Krabi. Like to really go look and kind of explore down in there. There's that park, I was just at it yesterday with all those animal sketches, like animal statues. Have you seen that? Like it's like this crazy, I was like, but every time I see one of these things or,
mike miller (01:15:57.015)
honorary uncle is pretty good.
Lisa (01:15:58.647)
Yeah.
mike miller (01:16:08.279)
Yeah.
got on a long tail boat and yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (01:16:22.158)
there's a gecko running up the wall beside me, I think Alexis. There's like all the time I think about how cool it'd be to like be out here pissing around and rolling around at the park or whatever. You know what I mean? Like I just, yeah. I wanna put her in the sidecar and watch her dad flip out. That's what I wanna see. But anyway. Anyway. I tell Alex I said that. Yeah. Anyway, brings us to my favorite part of the show. That's the Daily Gratitudes.
Lisa (01:16:26.295)
Mm-hmm.
That's so sweet.
Lisa (01:16:39.671)
Yes! Right? Yes.
Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (01:16:50.894)
Lisa, let's start with you. What you got for us?
Lisa (01:16:56.727)
This week, I'm going to say that just that whole situation with this friend of mine, it's just I mean, I'm always grateful for this podcast. You know, I look forward to this every week. I love this. I've made so many great friends through this podcast. And so I appreciate it all the time. But I think just feeling that extra appreciation and just so thankful to be
a part of this podcast, just kind of highlighted with that experience having a friend reach out to me and knowing that it is entirely and directly related to Ashes to Awesome. So I'm grateful for you and I'm grateful for you creating this podcast and bringing really awesome people together and knowing that we are making a difference. It's awesome.
mike miller (01:17:40.567)
next
mike miller (01:17:50.295)
music.
Chuck LaFLange (01:17:51.79)
Thank you. Mike, Mike, what you got?
mike miller (01:17:59.447)
My world is kind of small right now. I feel like super repetitive, but I've really been struck with some of the same stuff that I've been struck with the last few times we've talked. As we've moved from Phuket to Krabi into the new site, it's really started transforming. Like we've had...
crews like doing renovations and stuff. Like it was really intense at first and now it's like kind of the end of stuff. But like my staff has like really stepped up. They're just so committed and helpful. And oh, here's one. We had a client who said like, I know that you're renovating. Cause we said, look, like we're like legit construction renovation, like you'll have to come.
like in February. And she said, look, like, I only have two weeks off work. I can't, this is it. This is the two weeks I have. I understand that you're under construction. I don't care. I need the treatment. Like the rest of it is all just bells and whistles. I don't give a shit. I wanna come. She was our first client that we had at the new site. And at the end of it, she left us this card that was like unbelievable saying, you know, that.
It's been life changing for her and you know, like.
And I look and I go, well, this is why we do what we do. Like our staff, my wife, Chu, is like, you know, Chu got the big shout out in the card for just making it a safe place. And this client said, like, I really want to thank you for allowing me to be here. You're making a really incredible place. That's everything it's supposed to be. And so I know like, I'm not doing that. Like that is like this huge team effort and it's really transforming and really turning into a place. Like I can, we've got like a Lotus pond happening now and like it's...
mike miller (01:19:55.127)
a steam room and an ice bath that are like, yeah, it's just, it's, it's turning out to be this amazing place exactly how I envisioned that it could be. Um, and I'm just grateful for everyone's input into it because if it was left to me, none of it would have happened to be honest, to be honest. So I, yeah, it's like, Chu, my wife and my staff are just killing it, killing it. Every day I just am struck by like, oh my God, so grateful for it.
Lisa (01:20:11.831)
Hmm
Chuck LaFLange (01:20:22.926)
kidding. I can't wait to come out and see the latest on it. Last time I was blown away by what was happening and it's been a couple few weeks now so really looking forward to seeing that actually. Smoothies, ice bath, yoga and EMDR. Let's make an afternoon of it. Look at that Amy.
mike miller (01:20:33.367)
Smoothie on me.
Lisa (01:20:36.247)
Hehehe. Yay!
mike miller (01:20:39.927)
Yeah. Done. Done, let's do it.
Lisa (01:20:41.079)
Hahaha
mike miller (01:20:45.527)
Careful what you ask for.
Chuck LaFLange (01:20:46.926)
Well, careful what you might remember. I'm just happy to somebody speaking English, man. Right? Like I'm like, fuck. Right? If I come, I might not leave. I'll bring a dog food with me and like, you know. Right? Yeah.
mike miller (01:20:48.727)
Well, you better bring some.
Lisa (01:20:55.287)
Hahaha!
mike miller (01:20:55.319)
Well, I-
mike miller (01:20:59.607)
I'll tell ya, you bring some shorts to get in that ice bath. I will deliver a smoothie to you in the ice bath, on your way to yoga, and I'll throw in, I'll throw in some EMDR to desensitize triggers for something like smoking.
Chuck LaFLange (01:21:05.102)
Oh yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (01:21:09.294)
No.
Chuck LaFLange (01:21:20.11)
That sounds like a date to me, right? You're just you got me swooning Mike swooning right absolutely I'm I am grateful. Geez am I grateful? Yeah, I am grateful for so much My time here in Thailand has not been without its struggles, but Coping mechanisms that I have that I you know that I didn't have before before coming to see you over there was you know
Lisa (01:21:26.551)
Yeah, yeah.
Lisa (01:21:31.287)
That's awesome.
mike miller (01:21:32.023)
That's what we do.
Chuck LaFLange (01:21:48.014)
They do help a lot, the breath work, and so much more than that. Lisa, your call to me yesterday was like, that has been like sitting with me hard. So I'm going to repeat your gratitude. Just the idea that I like got one person. And I know from my own experience that there's a few more than one that we've managed to impact. But whenever that one comes up, it's going to be the biggest deal.
Because that's the one that's in your face and it's just like, that is so cool. That is so cool to think that 16 months ago, I'm homeless, shitty, hating my life, carrying enough fentanyl to kill myself because that's the day to this. To sitting here in a virtual studio with you two, getting a call like that. What else do I want for my life? Right?
It's absolutely amazing. So yeah, I got a lot to be grateful for. Yeah. Fuck, almost made it through the episode. Okay. So, all right, I was almost there. It's just, it's amazing. I got to spend it. Mike Sylvins, yeah, yeah. Cold Mike.
mike miller (01:22:51.767)
Beautiful.
Lisa (01:22:53.015)
You even got me!
Lisa (01:22:56.983)
Yeah, Mike wins.
mike miller (01:22:58.039)
I don't have feelings, so, yeah.
mike miller (01:23:03.223)
I always love watching you and other people get in touch with emotions when they're of gratitude. It really is super powerful. And how do you feel more connected to someone than when they're so authentic and real and feeling that stuff in the moment? So it's always beautiful to watch that.
Chuck LaFLange (01:23:21.582)
Thank you.
mike miller (01:23:23.255)
And I'm really grateful to have, it was funny. I gotta say one last thing. Lisa had said, oh, I'm always grateful for the podcast and what's up. And I went like this, I went, oh yeah, this is a podcast. Like I forget, like it's just this conversation that's so easy. And it's like, I'm grateful for that, that it's just always just seems like a beautiful conversation with people I enjoy talking to. And that's really cool.
Lisa (01:23:35.767)
I know. Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (01:23:48.27)
Awesome. Yeah. Last and most certainly not least, grateful to every single person who continues to watch, listen, support. You guys, this is like, I never could have imagined. I think I just covered that quite well. Anytime you do any one of the things, subscribe. I'm supposed to say that at the beginning, and I never do. It feels too forced, so whatever. You know what to do. Do the like, comment, share, subscribe thing. Every time you do any one of these things...
You're getting me a little bit closer to my best life. My best life is to continue making a humble living, spreading the message. The message is this. If you're an active addiction right now, today could be that day. Today could be the day that you start a lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call in to detox, go to a meeting, go to church, pray. I don't give a shit. Do whatever it is you have to do to get that journey started because it is so much better than the alternative.
If you have a loved one who's suffering an addiction right now, you've just taken the time to listen to our Rumble and it was a ramble. We just take one more minute out of your day and text that person. Let them know they're loved Use the words
Lisa (01:24:54.455)
You are loved.
Chuck LaFLange (01:24:56.718)
That little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings him back.
Shattered Stigma
Yatra
Morning Cup
