Dr, Lisa and I discuss the recent loss of 5 lives, at the hands of a man who has been battling addiction for years, and how the system might have been able to prevent this tragedy at many intersections.
Thank you to our title sponsor, The Yatra Trauma Centre
Chuck LaFLange (00:02.166)
Hello everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds. Welcome to another episode of The Weekend Ramble. I'm your host Chuck LaFlange checking in from Krabi, Thailand. Halfway around the world joining me in virtual studio from Calgary, Alberta, Canada is my lovely co -host Dr. Lisa. How you doing today, Lisa?
Lisa (00:15.758)
I am, I'm doing good. I had a very long sleep last night. My six year old, I joke has sleep poison. So when I lay down with her, she, inevitably I fall asleep with her two or three times a week. And I did that last night. I think I did it last Friday too, actually.
Chuck LaFLange (00:31.414)
You did too. Yeah, this is exactly how we started the episode last week. So yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lisa (00:34.542)
Yeah, and so yeah, so I ended up sleeping for like 12 hours. Feel great. Feel good. Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (00:40.694)
That's awesome. That's awesome. What's the weather doing back home today?
Lisa (00:45.23)
sun is shining. It's actually one of those nice winter days that you get in Calgary, right? Where I think it's above zero, not by a lot, but maybe like a few degrees above zero.
Chuck LaFLange (00:55.894)
Anything above minus 10 is a win, right?
Lisa (00:58.574)
Totally in the winter. Pure blue sky, like literally not a cloud, which is one of the things I love the most about Calgary. It snowed a bit this week, so there was like fresh white snow, bright blue sky. You know, like I said, I hate winter, but if we're going to have winter, this is not a bad version of it.
Chuck LaFLange (01:07.094)
Yes.
Chuck LaFLange (01:12.424)
Ha ha ha.
Chuck LaFLange (01:17.494)
Absolutely, right. Of course, as you know, I moved from Calgary to Saskatchewan years and years ago. And like my first four winters, I waited for a Chinook that never came. Well, how do you people get through winter without a Chinook, right? And to anybody who's listening, I guess we do have a lot of American audience that, you know, supporters and watchers listeners, whatever. A Chinook is warm winds that come in off the mountains and like turn winter into...
Lisa (01:27.95)
Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (01:41.814)
fall, spring, for days at a time, randomly throughout the winter. Like it's just, it's the coolest thing. Right? Yeah.
Lisa (01:47.214)
Yeah. And I think like Chinooks, I mean, they can increase our temperature by 20, 30 degrees in the span of a day. Right?
Chuck LaFLange (01:54.526)
Absolutely, absolutely. And we've all been there. It's not just stories people tell, right? Get up in the morning, you're wearing a parka. You come home at night, you're wearing a t -shirt. That is absolutely normal, right? So, yeah.
Lisa (02:04.718)
Yeah, yeah. And so yeah, I think we're kind of in that at the moment. We've got a nice week ahead of us.
Chuck LaFLange (02:09.75)
Yes, well, obviously, if you're above zero, then you're in a chinook, for sure. It's 28 degrees at 1 o 'clock in the morning. It's actually particularly hot right here right now. It's like too hot. Because if it's 28 degrees at this time, during the day, it's cracking 30 pretty hard and fast. So I found.
Lisa (02:14.606)
I love it. What about you? You're over there.
Chuck LaFLange (02:39.19)
My electricity bill, I was telling you pre -recording, it's not as low as I thought it was. And so now I'm like hyper aware of, okay, I gotta remember to turn the air conditioning off because why have it on if I'm gone for six hours, right? Like that's just silly, it's a waste of money. And I'll forget to turn it back on when I walk in the door and I say, oh my God, it is so hot. It is so hot, right? Right now, it's high season. It's right now, yep, yep, yeah.
Lisa (02:58.99)
What's the hottest time of year there? Like, is it kind of... Okay.
Chuck LaFLange (03:08.534)
I guess that ends in March. So we'll be coming up on a drop here soon that way.
Lisa (03:14.894)
Because where are you guys? This is really, it doesn't sound really, I was like, should I even admit this out loud? But where are you guys relative to the equator? Just gonna look. Europe of much. Yeah, that's what I thought.
Chuck LaFLange (03:22.486)
We are above the equator, but not by much. Since I've been here, sunset has changed by about half an hour in three months.
Right. So like the amount of daylight, you know, has changed just slightly. Right. Because we're pretty damn close to the equator. Right. So as you get closer to the equator, as I'm sure you're aware, you know, it's like 12 hours and 12 hours. Right. You know, in Panama, for instance, that's as close as I've ever been to the equator. It's been it was like six and six, like almost to the nose sunset and sunrise. Right. But so here it's moved by like half an hour since I've been here. So. Yeah.
Lisa (03:38.734)
Okay. Yeah.
Lisa (03:50.094)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa (04:04.334)
Okay. Yeah. I don't know exactly what ours has changed, but a fair bit. Like we've definitely gone from the, you know, yeah. It's like there was days, right? In the closer to December 21st or whatever, there were definitely days where I'd pick Alexis up from school. And if she had like an after -school activity for an hour or whatever, like 4 .30, it was like dark, you know? And now definitely noticing the days are getting longer.
Chuck LaFLange (04:07.062)
It is beautiful though.
Oh yeah, plenty more than a half hour.
Chuck LaFLange (04:19.988)
Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (04:28.566)
Yeah, yeah, right, right. Yeah, and it's funny because as much as I appreciate that consistency of it, I do kind of miss daylight till nine o 'clock at night, you know, right? Like that is, it's kind of cool when that, but I mean, if I don't have to have dark at 4 .30 in the afternoon, then you know, I'll take the six to six every time, right? So.
Lisa (04:43.47)
Yeah.
Lisa (04:51.726)
Yeah, yeah. Is that about what time it gets dark there?
Chuck LaFLange (04:54.742)
Give or take, yeah. When I got here it was like six, now it's about 6 .30. So it's pretty, yeah. Amazing, oh, this week, I've been doing more exploring with Sunny in the Sidecar than I have in the past, right, which is really cool. We got to do some of that footage with Mike. Did you see the video on the Sunny in the Sidecar, right? Isn't that awesome, right? Yeah.
Lisa (04:59.47)
Okay.
Lisa (05:16.206)
I did. Yeah, I watched it with Alexis actually. She was very excited. Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (05:20.854)
Oh, did you? I'll bet you was. Yeah, yeah. He's got a bunch more footage too. That was just like what he put together for me. You know, we probably got close to an hour worth of film taken there. So he's going to send me the raw footage so I can play around with it as well. But he is so talented, right? Like that's all him. You know, that's all him. So, yeah, right.
Lisa (05:35.886)
Yeah.
Lisa (05:42.958)
Yeah. A man of many talents. Mr. Mike.
Chuck LaFLange (05:46.87)
Yeah, right, right, yeah, over to the Yachter Centre. And that's where we were taking that. That footage was right beside the Yachter, like very, very close to it. So, kind of gives a sense of, yeah.
Lisa (05:57.966)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, so I mean, I know this because we spoke during the week, but so you got out there this week and you guys did some of that filming, but probably nice just to get out there and see old faces and stuff from when you were there, right?
Chuck LaFLange (06:05.674)
Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (06:11.158)
Oh yeah, absolutely right. And so the staff there, there's only one of the staff was there, you know, aside from Mike and his wife, Chu, who I haven't really seen Chu since I got here, just very quickly once or twice, but she's just such a lovely human being. But the staff there, Teddy specifically is one of the support staff. She's a local woman, loves dogs probably more than I do, right?
Lisa (06:36.846)
Aww.
Chuck LaFLange (06:39.862)
So when I showed up with Sunny in the sidecar, she was like, her and Sunny were gone. Like she's just like walking right away. And she's talking about getting a sidecar now too. And it's like, oh, I might've started a thing here, right? So yeah. Yeah, for her and the Yachter Center's dog, Buck. So it should be interesting. It should be interesting, right? Yeah. Yes, they do.
Lisa (06:46.03)
Hahaha!
Lisa (07:04.11)
So they have a dog there, Eotra? Oh.
Chuck LaFLange (07:08.15)
That's a funny story and I hope that I get it right but I'll get the idea right anyway. It's a stray and keeping in mind there are strays, I've told you this before, they're just everywhere. It's part of what happens here, right? I posted a five minute video of Sonny and I with two different camera angles last night on Sonny and the Sidecar and at one point we get chased out of a market by a pack of strays.
Lisa (07:32.494)
Oh gosh.
Chuck LaFLange (07:32.662)
Right? Like, yeah. And they're led by this like three -legged beast who's really fast for a three -legged dog. Right? I mean, I don't know how, I don't have anything to compare it to, but I'm assuming that is fast for a three -legged dog. Because I was like hitting the throttle hard. But, Bach was a stray at the old Yachter Center in Phuket before they moved down here. And he just started coming around and Chubu being an animal lover was very nice to him. And...
Lisa (07:39.342)
Hahaha!
Chuck LaFLange (08:00.406)
At one point she left and Bach chased her in the car for a long time, like a couple miles, like down to the beach. And when she opened the door, Bach just jumped in. So she ended up bringing him back. Right? Right?
Lisa (08:17.166)
He was like, we're family. You don't know yet, but you and me, we're family.
Chuck LaFLange (08:24.15)
So she ended up bringing it back. It's a stray dog in a trauma center. So you can imagine, like Mike, as head clinician, he's an animal lover, of course. He's not a dog guy the same way, but he's an animal lover. But he's also the head clinician at a trauma center. You can't just have a random stray dog inside the property. Wow, right? Like there's a million reasons why that's not a good idea. But she was like, maybe, right? Makes you know she's bottom of collar.
Lisa (08:41.42)
Yeah.
Lisa (08:50.24)
Maybe there's a way.
Chuck LaFLange (08:52.328)
and Bok is part of the family and he's been to the vet and he's you know I know right right
Lisa (08:57.422)
So sweet. And you know what? I mean, as long as it's a dog with the right temperament, dogs can be incredibly therapeutic. Like there's some dogs at the hospital I work at and they're like famous, you know, like they have their own cards and I mean, they're obviously with their owner, but like I see they'll bring them on to our unit because we have patients on our unit who aren't allowed to go outside, right? I mean,
Chuck LaFLange (09:12.086)
Oh yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (09:15.766)
Yep.
Chuck LaFLange (09:23.542)
Yeah.
Lisa (09:24.046)
It's not like that forever. And obviously our goal is to get them outside, get them at a hospital, but there's periods of time where people first come in and they can't go outside. And so being able to bring like a nice tempered dog onto the unit, it's super therapeutic.
Chuck LaFLange (09:38.294)
damn straight it is, and for me. Sonny is often my therapy, right? And he knows if I'm upset, he's at my feet, he's, you he knows what's going on, right? And there's something about some love from, it just, you know, you just need that in your life sometimes, so.
Lisa (09:43.694)
Yeah.
Lisa (09:54.158)
I mean, I think with dogs, right, there's no, there's no resentments. There's no judgments. It's like, I often joke that if the world were just full of dogs, it would probably be a better place. Like, you know, they love unconditionally, like truly, you know.
Chuck LaFLange (10:07.766)
Right? 100%. Yeah, yeah. When I look at a dog and I think mindfulness, 100%. Dog is just constantly in the moment, right? Paying attention to whatever's going on around him and enjoying the shit out of it usually. Right? But it's like, you know, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've learned a lot from Sunny. I continue to, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so.
Lisa (10:17.122)
Yeah.
Lisa (10:23.308)
Mm -hmm. Yep. Totally.
Lisa (10:31.694)
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, I can't quote specifics, but I know I've read stuff before where they talk about people with dogs live longer and stuff like that. And it's like, there's got to be something to that. Yeah. I think it gives some people a sense of purpose too, right? Like, especially if I think just categorizing and stereotyping, but like older people who maybe are retired, they've got a, they're, you know, they're single, they're on their own. And it's, sometimes it's just hard to feel like you've got any get up and go, cause you don't feel like you have a reason.
Chuck LaFLange (10:45.28)
Of course, of course. Yes, I would think so.
Lisa (11:05.294)
And so I think having a dog gives people a sense of purpose.
Chuck LaFLange (11:05.398)
Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (11:08.918)
Without a doubt it does. Myself, I'm the best version of me when I have one. Because I can't just slack. I can't just not do anything for a day. He needs to be walked, he needs to be fed, he needs to be let out. All those things, because it's a sentient being that I'm responsible for, taken care of. So totally different version of me. And you know, yeah.
Lisa (11:31.726)
And it's like, he needs to be walked, yes, but I think it's even bigger than that. Because the thing is, is that you might get yourself out the door because he needs these things. But I think then when you get out, you know, he enjoys it, which makes you enjoy it. And yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (11:48.278)
Oh, of course, of course, right? Yeah, yeah, right? Every sniff of every everything is like wonderment, you know, right? It's like, you know, oh, look, there's a dead frog. That should take up at least a minute of my day. Like, we need to investigate this, right? You know, it's kind of the perfect example of finding some enjoyment and, you know, the otherwise unenjoyable, so, right?
Lisa (12:00.52)
Yippee!
Chuck LaFLange (12:11.572)
Before we do an entire episode dedicated to the dogs, to the institution that is Sunny in a Sidecar, check it out on Facebook, guys. And Instagram, oh, I want to touch on that real quick. So my friend Nicole from Regina, who is a teacher on leave, we met years and years ago in Estevan, haven't seen each other in 15 years, something like that, has taken over the Sunny in a Sidecar Instagram account.
Lisa (12:20.078)
Yeah.
Lisa (12:39.918)
Oh really?
Chuck LaFLange (12:41.142)
Yes, but the idea being to get some totally different unique content on there, right? Because even if I put different stuff, it's still my style of stuff. I can't flip -flop back and forth. I don't have a personality disorder. I can't, you know, right? So she's taking it. And I don't know if you've looked at the Instagram account for Sunny in a Sidecar, but it is...
Lisa (13:03.342)
I've seen it.
Chuck LaFLange (13:04.47)
I kind of laugh. It's like, okay, now you're just showing off. She's got it all organized into columns. It's like crazy. She's got posts scheduled for the next week, three a day. She's got a whole vibe going on there. She's doing this just... Ah, Lisa, Lisa, Lisa. Yes.
Lisa (13:08.206)
Really?
Oh
Lisa (13:21.198)
Oh my god, I'm not even a follower.
Lisa (13:27.182)
So sorry, but now I'm a follower.
Chuck LaFLange (13:28.278)
There you go, there you go, so now you'll see. But you see what she's done there, right, with that vibe. It's just like very different than anything I've ever done, right? So yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, we have a Google Drive where I just put everything into it and she has absolute free reign over the Instagram page, right? She can do whatever she wants on there. I don't check, I don't get approval or give approval, I just have at her, folks, yeah.
Lisa (13:33.39)
Oh, yeah.
Lisa (13:38.126)
Yeah. So do you send her the video, like your footage, and then she...
Lisa (13:45.868)
Yeah?
Lisa (13:50.478)
Aww.
Lisa (13:58.478)
Oh, that's so cute. I love how her little like memes, you know.
Chuck LaFLange (14:02.742)
I know, right? Yeah, they're uplifting and they're, yeah, right? You know, Thailand's number one tailwagger, she calls them there at the top. So I've been kind of keeping that.
Lisa (14:07.246)
So cute.
Lisa (14:13.166)
But yeah, I was telling you that, uh, I was showing Alexis the video that, you know, that Mike and you had put together of Sonny. And I mean, she's seen other videos of him, but for some reason it hadn't clicked. And so she was like, what? She's like, he has a dog. And I was like, yeah. And she was fascinated that he drives around in that sidecar. Like she was just like, like, I want to see more. Is there another one? Let me see another one. Like just, yeah, she's loving it. Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (14:33.75)
hahahaha
Chuck LaFLange (14:39.094)
Well, there's more. There's lots more. That's awesome. I'll make sure to give her a shout out in my next one there. That'll make her happy, I'm sure. We were talking beforehand and...
Lisa (14:44.174)
It's good though, it's good, it's so sweet.
Lisa (14:51.342)
She'll love it.
Chuck LaFLange (14:58.77)
Even with our talk pre -recording Lisa, I'm not even sure how much I want to get into it, but I do want to touch on it. It was a story you brought to my attention, of course, earlier in the week about a tragedy that happened in Winnipeg. Or in Manitoba, I should say. I should say Winnipeg.
Lisa (15:15.308)
Saskatchewan, I think, wasn't it? No, wait. No, maybe you're right.
Chuck LaFLange (15:18.166)
Was it? No, it's Manitoba. It's Manitoba for sure. Yeah. Where a man...
Lisa (15:25.87)
Yeah, Manitoba.
Chuck LaFLange (15:29.134)
Took the life of his wife and three children. Is that accurate? Yeah.
Lisa (15:34.862)
Yeah, and then also his wife's, I don't know if they were married, but his common law spouse, her 17 year old niece, I think it was. And the children were very little. Like the youngest of the three kids was two and a half months old.
Chuck LaFLange (15:44.95)
Okay, okay, so five people.
Chuck LaFLange (15:50.198)
as young as two and a half months old. Yeah, right. So...
Lisa (15:56.524)
Yep. Yep.
Chuck LaFLange (16:00.904)
context here, the reason that we started having a conversation, of course, you know, this being a recovery podcast that it is, revolved around him, you know, being addicted to to methamphetamine, crystal meth, I say, and that kind of leading up to this horrible, horrible tragedy.
And you had some really great thoughts on that, Lisa, and I think it's a good time to talk about that. I don't want to put words in your mouth, so what are your thoughts?
Lisa (16:29.294)
Mm -hmm.
Lisa (16:34.094)
I mean it is, it's like a tragedy. No matter how we spin it, no matter what angle you look at it from, you know, you've got five people gone who clearly didn't deserve that. And it always, everything always hits harder when it's kids, right? Like kids who are caught in the crossfire of whatever, young, innocent. So super sad story, but I had heard about this from a colleague and...
went and started sort of reading some of the news articles that were out. And there was just some things that really like stood out to me. In one of the news articles, they talk about an incident where I think he had locked himself in like a shed or a garage or something. And they sort of describe him being quite agitated in there. And it sounds from the article as if
police and paramedics had arrived and they described the paramedics as treating his psychosis. Okay, that is not real life. That is not real life. No, I suspect what happened was that paramedics will sometimes administer antipsychotic medications to treat agitation.
Chuck LaFLange (17:43.062)
So how does one treat psychosis? Right, okay, yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (17:59.126)
which are a band -aid, right? That's a band -aid, that's, yeah, okay, okay, yeah.
Lisa (18:01.23)
Yeah, it's just, yeah, like a single dose of an antipsychotic does not treat psychosis. It will, like we use antipsychotics often in hospital on an as needed basis to settle agitated patients because they have sort of a sedating effect. And so if you've got somebody, whether it's from drugs or psychosis unrelated to drugs,
Those are our common as needed medications, as we'll use benzos and we'll use antipsychotics to sort of bring people down. And we do that because in a state like that, those patients, they're a danger to themselves, they're a danger to other people. And so, you know, we use those meds to kind of bring them down. So I suspect when they say in the news article that the paramedics treated his psychosis, that they gave him.
a single dose either orally or by injection of an antipsychotic medication because of this agitation that they describe in the article.
but you don't treat psychosis with a single shot of anything or a single tablet of anything. So the first thing that stood out to me is that assuming the article is accurate, they believed he was psychotic. And based on what is I read in the article and I recognize there's probably all kinds of details that are not included there, but it doesn't seem that they took him to the hospital. You know, so for one, yeah.
Paramedics don't treat psychosis in parking lots or on the side of their ambulance, you know.
Lisa (19:45.742)
I feel like that was one missed opportunity. Why if he was psychotic was he not brought to a hospital?
Lisa (19:56.046)
According to that article, the day after that happened, he went into a Tim Hortons, again in an agitated state. They describe him throwing around coffee cups, or I don't know if it was like the big jugs of coffee that they pour, or if it was the little glasses.
Chuck LaFLange (20:14.59)
They said glass coffee cups is what they had said. Yeah, yeah in the article. Yeah, yeah
Lisa (20:17.358)
Right? And he ended up getting charged, you know, so again, the police intervened at some point there, but he ended up getting charged with, was it mischief, I think? But you know, you just, again, it's like, from the article, I don't know that anybody got injured in that Tim Hortons incident. I mean, psychologically, I'm sure there was a lot of distressed individuals who found that quite traumatizing. Yeah. Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (20:27.956)
Yes, Jeff, I think it was, yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (20:42.454)
Yeah, they'd locked themselves in a back room while it was happening and called police, right? And so first responders would come, yeah.
Lisa (20:46.862)
Right? And again, like a huge risk that someone could have been physically injured, nevermind psychologically distressed. And you just wonder, like, again, if he had been found the day before, psychotic, why was he not brought to the hospital to get the help he clearly needed? But it also would have potentially then prevented what happened in that Tim Hortons.
Chuck LaFLange (21:11.798)
Yes, yes.
Lisa (21:13.938)
Subsequent to that, the article talks about, you know, he went before a judge related to the mischief charge from the Tim Hortons. And the wording in the, and it was a CBC news article, the warning, or the way it was described in the article was that the judge warned him to get his meth addiction under control, or it was going to cost him, you know, his life or,
his family or...
Chuck LaFLange (21:44.278)
his family, it would cost him his family is, yeah, yeah, what he had said. Yeah, yeah.
Lisa (21:48.846)
And it's just interesting because I just, I guess for me reading the article and as a mom, like prior to having Alexis, I actually considered doing pediatrics. And I had done rotations at the children's hospital where I saw horrendous things. I'll never forget this one baby I saw in rotation who had shaken baby syndrome. Like this was a.
Chuck LaFLange (22:14.934)
you
Lisa (22:15.214)
an infant who had been abused and had neurologic consequences from this and like really terrible catastrophic shit. And I still loved the work and I could do it. I mean, again, I didn't do it for a long time. I was a resident on a rotation, but like even compared to my resident colleagues, like I was just like, no, I love this. Like I love being here. After I had Alexis, like good thing I didn't go into pediatrics. I'd have had to quit my job.
Now, like, I work at the Peter Lawheed Hospital. It's an adult hospital. Granted, sometimes kids get brought into our emergency department if families live nearest our hospital, and then if it's needed, the hospital will transport them to the children's hospital. But if I'm in the hospital and I hear children crying, like, I have this urge to, like, go to the child. I'm like, what is wrong with this child? Can somebody help the child? Like, I can't, I literally can't handle it since I became a mom.
Chuck LaFLange (23:11.766)
Hehehehe.
Lisa (23:15.278)
So, I mean, for me reading the story, it was just like, were there places where this could have been handled differently that maybe would have prevented this outcome? And for me, the things that I'm reading, now recognizing we don't have all the details, but this whole encountered and treated by a paramedic for psychosis not brought to hospital.
Subsequently, 24 hours later, this event in the Tim Hortons where people I'm sure were distressed and could have been very physically injured. And then onto this event and you know, this, this judge warning them or warning him. And it just makes me think again, like, is that the appropriate treatment for somebody who is clearly was recognized by this judge as having an addiction? And I'm thinking,
if that person had a brain tumor that was affecting their neurologic function.
What did Judge say?
Chuck LaFLange (24:18.134)
And to be clear, to be clear, to interrupt, addiction affects your neurologic function. As you know, this is, I'm calling on Lisa, the psychiatrist, this is a fact, this is a medical fact, correct? Okay, okay.
Lisa (24:32.75)
Yes, I mean, they can, they do imaging and you can look when somebody is active in addiction, their frontal lobe, the activity level of their frontal lobe is drastically shut down.
Chuck LaFLange (24:46.678)
frontal lobe being responsible for cognitive behavior.
Lisa (24:48.846)
Being responsible, that's, that's what makes you you, right? That's what makes you unique. It's what makes you consider consequences to your actions. It's what makes you go, you know what? I'm not going to do that because I'm going to hurt myself or I'm not going to do that because I'm going to hurt somebody else. So it's where we have compassion and empathy and our morals and our personalities. Like all of this is in our frontal cortex and someone in active addiction has very, very, very reduced.
frontal lobe activity. So that's why when people say, well, you know, they don't care or look at how badly they treat people, it's like because the part of their brain that helps them helps all of us behave in a way that is considerate of others and ourselves and our values. It's not working.
So it is a brain disease. And this is what's interesting is that within the medical community, people talk about addiction as a brain disease. But I still feel like as much as we say that, and there's organic proof of it using functional MRI imaging, there's still so many ways in which addiction is still treated like a moral disease or a moral failure. You know, you're bad. Because again,
Chuck LaFLange (25:51.606)
Thanks.
Lisa (26:11.086)
If we take a situation like this where we know that this man had an addiction, had a brain disease, would another patient with a brain disease that was not addiction, so let's say he had a tumor in his frontal cortex, if he was put before a judge because his impaired brain function had led to some bad behavior that landed him in front of a judge, would a judge look at him and say,
Chuck LaFLange (26:28.022)
videos.
Lisa (26:40.558)
you should really get that brain tumor under control.
No. You know, and I often will, yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (26:50.742)
And to take that back, if I could, sorry to interrupt again Lisa, to take that back, in your experience, and of course you weren't there, you've qualified that numerous times, you've only got the details that are in the story. In your experience, if somebody who suffers some other brain disease is in a Tim Horton's throwing cups around.
Or is it locked themselves in a shed, being a danger to themselves and others, to a point where police are called and all that? That person is typically brought to the hospital. I want to say, and from what it looks like from the surface, and I think you'd agree, well I know you're going to agree with me when I say, if this was anything outside of addiction, this person gets treated very, very differently.
Lisa (27:25.71)
Yep. Yep.
Chuck LaFLange (27:41.552)
possibly never even getting to a point where they're standing in front of a judge who's saying something so ridiculous as, you better get this under control. Right? Like the thing that we all know, you just don't get under control. Continue though, I'm sorry.
Lisa (27:53.774)
Yeah. Yeah. And you know what? Like there are people, I mean, you're a perfect example of it. There are people who suffer an addiction, who do get themselves out of it.
Chuck LaFLange (28:10.326)
Well, I never got myself out of anything.
Lisa (28:10.606)
Um.
Well, I mean, you had help. And that's what I was going to say, is that we don't know it. Yeah. Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (28:16.534)
I called for help when I needed it, you know, and finally got it. But even that only comes because, right, the whole underlying message of our show, because you are loved, right? I'm only at a point where I feel I can call for that help because of those words, right? So continue though, continue.
Lisa (28:26.67)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa (28:36.11)
Yeah. Yeah. But no, it's just, you know, we don't know the details of this guy's personal story. I believe he was Indigenous. You know, based on, I watched some news videos where they actually had a chief from an Indigenous tribe. So I think he may have belonged to that tribe. And...
You know, in one of the videos I saw, they were talking about how they do not condone evil behavior. And it just reinforced for me again this idea that this is not a biologic medical thing, that this is being viewed as some sort of moral failing, spiritual failing. You know, there was words used to describe, you know, like evil. And it's like what he did was...
absolutely terrible, but I feel like when you start using descriptive words like evil, it again kind of brings it back to whether it's, you know, spiritual or moral. It certainly doesn't sound biologic. Like if you had somebody, again, who had a brain tumor who did something horrendous, well, the act obviously...
can be described with whatever words you want, would we describe that person as evil?
Chuck LaFLange (30:04.438)
No, we will not. No.
Lisa (30:06.604)
You know what I mean? If anything, I feel like had it been an organic brain tumor, there would have been more, you know, were there signs that this as a system, how did we let him down? Right?
Chuck LaFLange (30:17.366)
Right? And that's it, right? But instead, we're finger pointing at, you know, to me we're pointing at the wrong people. We're not pointing at a system that should have done something, right? 100%.
Lisa (30:30.83)
that has let him down, right? You know, we've obviously talked about mandated treatment on here before, and we've had people on here who are completely opposed to mandated treatment, people who are very much in support of it. But again, you just wonder, you know, after, you know, being dealt with by the police and a paramedic when he was locked in a shed or a garage or whatever the hell it was, to subsequently,
Chuck LaFLange (30:38.038)
Yeah.
Lisa (31:00.878)
probably being involved with the police at the Tim Hortons event, to then subsequently standing in front of a judge who warns him about his illness and the potential consequences of his illness. But like, what if he, I don't even know, had he been offered help and declined it? Don't know. But even then, what if he had been mandated to treatment instead of warned? You know, I'm gonna warn you.
Chuck LaFLange (31:27.446)
Right, right, yeah. Which is, I guess, where this entire conversation starts when Dr. Rob Tangay makes a mention like this on social media, you catch it. And that's kind of where this whole thing's journey starts for you and I anyway, as far as this conversation goes.
Lisa (31:36.11)
Yep. Yep.
Lisa (31:41.006)
Yeah. Yeah. So Rob, yeah, had shared about, or Dr. Tangay, just in case people know him that way better, who's been on the show with us. Like, you know, he had shared it on what used to be Twitter. What's it called now? X? Yeah. Anyway, he had shared the story and kind of, and I was like, what is, what's he talking about? I hadn't heard the story. I actually don't watch the news at all. So didn't know what it was about, but you know, he said,
Chuck LaFLange (31:54.742)
X, yeah.
Lisa (32:10.19)
basically exactly what we're talking about. Like what if he had been offered help or even been mandated to get help? What would this, you know, would the outcome have been different?
Chuck LaFLange (32:23.894)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can't help but wonder.
Lisa (32:25.102)
You know, and I think there were multiple points and, and I only know of three points from a CBC news article, but it's like, there were three points there where this could have been handled differently. And, you know, you can't help but think that at every single fork in the road, when you have a decision to make, or the police have a decision to make, or a judge has a decision to make, that any different outcome is going to subsequently in some way.
Chuck LaFLange (32:32.842)
Yep.
Lisa (32:54.926)
change what happens in the future. You know, so it's like, could this have been prevented? And would this have been treated differently if it was a brain tumor? You know?
Chuck LaFLange (32:57.526)
Of course it is. Of course it is. Right?
Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (33:09.75)
or anything else, schizophrenia, multiple personality disorder, whatever, any disorder of the brain. And yes, it's the extreme case, the most extreme of extremes, and to echo your statements on the loss of these, I mean, this is a family that's gone. This is awful. And yes, it's the extreme case, but how many people...
Lisa (33:33.198)
Yeah. So awful. Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (33:39.766)
have been treated by religious, family, penal, legal. Where does it end? Because we're still treating this, even if we say all the things we're supposed to say, we're still treating it like it's a fucking moral failure. And that's the problem.
Lisa (33:49.23)
I know.
Lisa (33:55.246)
Yeah. Yeah.
And so yesterday, we have to do indigenous training every so often. And so I actually literally just spent a few hours.
Chuck LaFLange (34:11.414)
get to do indigenous training every so often. Or you did. Yes. Yes.
Lisa (34:15.086)
we get to. Did I say have to? Oh, I get to. Good catch. And I actually do enjoy it, especially like, I'll be honest, it's like any course, like if it's a bunch of words on a screen and I have to sit there and read them, it's not super exciting. But this was like about three and a half hours of training that I got to do. And what I actually really enjoy is there was a lot of videos throughout that had
Chuck LaFLange (34:42.294)
Mm -hmm.
Lisa (34:43.05)
individuals from various Indigenous community, like there was, you know, folks there who were First Nations, there was folks who were Métis, there were folks who were Inuit, and they were talking about a variety of things. Like there was a video on how a lot of times they're told to just get over it, and them talking about why that's not going to happen and why that should not be expected of them.
there were videos of them talking about some of their cultural practices and a lot of things that they talked about that I was completely oblivious to that affect the sort of care we provide in hospitals, like how we can be respectful of some of their cultural and spiritual practices. But it was just very interesting this week to watch all of those videos and to learn about that stuff and then to recognize that this individual,
man was Indigenous, because it talks a lot about, again, add another layer of not being treated the same and not being treated fairly will add in the fact that he was Indigenous. And that just adds a whole lot of other questions onto the
Chuck LaFLange (35:59.766)
And we would like to say that that doesn't affect the way the system treats somebody, but let's be honest. Right? Let's be honest. Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa (36:05.518)
And it's proven. I mean, like they've done a lot of research on this. And I think that it's pretty well documented that they do receive different treatment.
Chuck LaFLange (36:20.148)
100%. I'll admit to something. When I was in Saskatchewan, Canada, I was management at a trucking company, hiring, and it was a big part of my job.
sorting through resumes. And if I saw that obvious family name, that meant somebody was Indigenous, I am so not proud to say it, but I think it's important to acknowledge that it's a thing. If it's a thing for me, and I'm a pretty open -minded person, I try really hard not to be racist, but I'll admit that I looked at that resume differently and not in a positive way.
Lisa (37:03.054)
Mm -hmm.
Chuck LaFLange (37:03.606)
And I thought about, oh, do I want to take this on? What a fucking horrible thing. And it sucks to have to admit that now, but if I'm going to stick to what are now my values of authenticity and honesty, then I have to admit that about myself. I mean, fuck, I've admitted all sorts of things about myself in the last year of doing the show. God knows. And yeah, most certainly.
Lisa (37:07.598)
Mm -hmm.
Lisa (37:25.07)
Yeah. And I think for me, like the biggest, the biggest thing that I know I struggle with is just that I don't, I, and I know I don't get it. You know, I, I can't, no matter how much I read, no matter how many conversations I have, like I'm not going to get it. Like one of the things we have in the hospital that's super helpful is we have indigenous spiritual care and
they're great because I can consult them if I have an Indigenous patient and they will come up and I get to speak to them to get help and guidance. They will meet with our Indigenous patients. They will, and we allow them to smudge on the unit, like we'll even like, you know, turn fire alarms off so that they can do smudging rituals and things in hospital to try to be supportive of patients and.
I actually just a week ago discharged a man who I'd had in the hospital for about seven months. And he was actually a survivor of residential schools. And it was really interesting like working through things with him because there were so many things that I felt we were trying to do for him and offer to him that he would reject because he saw it as being part of the system and he wanted nothing to do with it. And...
There was times like I would go in and tell him something I was excited to tell him and he would just look at me and be like, I don't want that. And I was like, what? Like, what do you mean? Like, I thought this was amazing. And he wanted nothing to do with it because he just, you know, rejected things that he felt were part of, you know, came from the government or came from the system because of the abuse he had experienced.
Chuck LaFLange (39:09.174)
Yeah. Right.
Lisa (39:13.358)
And I think because I, you know, I don't always have patients in hospital for seven months, right? Sometimes they're there for a week. But this is a guy I worked with for a long time. He was about 60 years old. And so I really got to know him. And it was just really eye -opening to me to see his perspective on things. But so again, like I think that out of respect for...
Chuck LaFLange (39:26.678)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa (39:41.55)
this guy and this story is to add in the fact that he was indigenous and like how much did that play in? I just think like being indigenous, there's a lot of stigma and then having an addiction, there's a lot of stigma. And when you have addiction and you're indigenous, it's just like, you know, piles on, right?
Chuck LaFLange (40:00.246)
Yeah, without a doubt, right? I can tell you, and I'm not going to try and use this as some sort of comparison. God, I'm not trying to please accept that. Like right away, let's make that disclaimer. Living here in Thailand, experiencing kind of a low -key racism sometimes, and how frustrating it is for me, I often think, how frustrating.
and how traumatizing it must be for somebody to grow up and spend years and your entire life in a country where even the low -key stuff happens to you on the regular.
Lisa (40:34.738)
Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (40:36.598)
Right? I can't even begin to imagine, like my level of frustration. And I've shared with you a few things that have happened since I've been here. And it's really frustrating at times, right? So I can't imagine. I just can't. And you said something there, Lisa, that you'll never understand. And I think I probably said this to you in the past. I actually just made a meme about it the other day. One of the most powerful things anybody ever said to me was, I understand that I will never understand.
Lisa (41:03.252)
Mm -hmm.
Chuck LaFLange (41:06.71)
So I think it's important, as soon as you said that, I zoned in on it. Yeah, right? If we know that about each other, it changes everything, right?
Lisa (41:11.318)
And you know, again, for me, my first experience of understanding I would not understand came from my brother. You know, because I remember in the early days and what prompted me to start reading books to try to understand is that I would, I remember in those early days, like the fear that he had, the...
Chuck LaFLange (41:21.942)
Right. Right.
Lisa (41:38.38)
desire to get well, but the struggle to follow through. And I just remember being like, I don't get it. Just stop. Like you said, you want to stop the just stop and seeing firsthand that he couldn't. I was like, I, I don't get it. Like, I just don't understand. Um, and yeah, and I, I do think it. It's.
Chuck LaFLange (41:56.726)
Yeah.
Lisa (42:07.886)
It's a form of humility is to know what you don't know, right? And know what you don't get. I still remember as a resident, you know, we have to do viewed interviews and some of our viewed interviews are with actor patients and some of our viewed interviews are with real patients. And I remember a colleague of mine doing an interview with somebody and it was an actor.
Chuck LaFLange (42:14.486)
Yeah.
Lisa (42:38.318)
but he was acting in the role of somebody suffering with addiction. And I remember this resident who is this, and she is, she's this beautiful, blonde haired, blue eyed, you know, upper class, you know, came from a family with two physician parents. And I remember her looking at this actor and saying like, you know, oh, I understand. And it was just like, poof.
Like he just went off and they're very good actors, you know? But again, like I remember her coming out and being like, you know, and the, the doctor who was overseeing this and doing the teaching around this was like, you know, where do you think you lost that interview? And she's like, when I said, I understand. And it led to this big conversation about like, there's a lot of shit we don't understand. Like, even if I sit in front of a patient who's just told she has cancer, I don't understand, you know, like.
Chuck LaFLange (43:36.31)
feeling is that, yeah, right, how could you? How could you? And even when, even when, and of course with me, PTSD was what that revelation was for me when somebody said that to me, was revolving around my PTSD. But when I'm standing beside somebody or talking to somebody who's also suffering with PTSD, even then, I don't understand, right? Like, I just don't.
Lisa (43:37.838)
I don't know what that would feel like, you know, you can imagine, but until you've been there.
Lisa (43:58.51)
Yeah. Nope. Everyone's unique.
Chuck LaFLange (44:02.902)
Yeah, right. It's definitely something, if we all kept that in mind, you know.
Lisa (44:08.684)
Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (44:13.622)
Facts of the story, and I mean, I think we've said what we need to say about it. I think it's unfortunate that we have to censor ourselves. You know, and there's a reason that I haven't made a write -up. I think there's the same reason you haven't made a write -up about it, is you don't want to be seen as defending an act. An act that is evil. The act itself is whatever, right? And whatever your religious beliefs are.
Lisa (44:24.558)
Mm -hmm.
Lisa (44:31.022)
Yeah.
Lisa (44:39.502)
Mm -hmm.
Chuck LaFLange (44:42.87)
It's fucking horrible. It's beyond words. It's two and a half months old, 17 years old, everything in between. It's awful, right? But, go ahead, go ahead.
Lisa (44:44.846)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa (44:55.982)
And for me, it's not like I'm not defending what he did, you know, and in any way, but it's where could the system have stepped in and potentially prevented this? And when the system didn't step in, should they have, you know, if, if we could go back knowing this was where things were going to lead, what could have been done differently?
Chuck LaFLange (45:02.646)
course.
Chuck LaFLange (45:11.54)
Yes.
Lisa (45:24.526)
And for me, it's not about defending his act in any way, shape or form, but it's entirely about how do we prevent other stories like this? You know? And then also adding in, was he not given the help he needed because of the stigma that still exists despite the fact that the medical community all agree that this is a brain disease?
Chuck LaFLange (45:34.902)
Yes, yes, yes.
Chuck LaFLange (45:55.446)
Yep.
Lisa (45:56.11)
If it's a brain disease, at all these various points, and we know of three points, and there's probably 50 of them.
But why was he not treated like he had a disease at the points that are publicly talked about in some of these news articles that are circulating online?
You know.
Chuck LaFLange (46:19.158)
And I think we can agree, we know why, it's stigma, it's 100 % stigma, right? The whole thing is. Ah, frustrating. It is so frustrating to know that, you know...
Lisa (46:23.054)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa (46:29.614)
Yeah, yeah. Because I don't think there's enough introspective reflection by the system. You know, like I think it's very easy for everybody to just look and be like, you know, he's an evil man who did evil things, evil, evil, evil, him, him, him. And, you know, if that's the case, it kind of suggests there's nothing we could do to prevent these things.
Chuck LaFLange (46:38.28)
No!
Chuck LaFLange (46:54.454)
What an easy couple that is, right?
Lisa (46:57.518)
And it's like, no, like, I feel like we should be looking and going, where are the various points when police officers, paramedics, lawyers, judges, doctors, where they encountered.
Chuck LaFLange (47:09.206)
The whole fucking systems is involved and the whole system's responsible in my mind Right in my not so humble opinion. I guess I have to be you know The entire system is to blame for something like this happening. Yes, it's avoidable. You can't prove a negative we've said that but We'd be pretty damn sure that the different outcome with all the different forks in the road It's like all of them that this would have been a very different outcome, right?
Lisa (47:36.654)
Yeah, I know.
Chuck LaFLange (47:37.812)
A tragic tragic loss of life is instead the outcome.
Lisa (47:42.318)
I know. Yeah, so sad. Such a sad story. You know, and people are going to talk about it. And to me, it's, I think it's worth adding another layer into the conversation around, you know, there will be other people like him who are using drugs, who are acting erratically, dangerously, and what can we and what should we be doing about it?
Chuck LaFLange (48:09.27)
Absolutely. Absolutely. You're just getting in front of it, right? I think, if you remember, Lisa, because we're roughly the same age, I want to say about 20, 30 years ago, there was kind of this rash of stories of men who had taken the lives of their partners after police and everybody had many opportunities to intervene, you know, the legal system.
And now a no contact order is handed out so fast. And now, like we've changed the entire system from the families through to first responders, to hospitals, to everybody else has changed now in a way that protects people and the spouses of people that are the abused from their abusers. And for the better.
because nobody wants to be held responsible, right? And I think we can do that here. No, it's not, it's not.
Lisa (49:05.166)
And I still don't think it's enough. Yeah. It's not been enough. Like there's actually a, and it's a public story and I don't know this person personally, but there's actually a physician in Canada who's a member of a Facebook group, like a closed Facebook group that I'm in. And she had been married to a man who had been abusive. She had left this man.
and her and her new partner were fighting with the system about, they had concerns about him continuing to have access to his child. And they literally were doing, pulling all the emergency strings they could. I think he had escalated, he was making some threats. They had tried everything. And this just happened a few years ago. And he took this child because literally I think like something to the effect of on a Friday, the mom and the stepdad had...
pleaded with a judge. The judge had overruled it and said, no, she goes with her dad. He took her to the mountains and killed her and himself. And, you know, and that story is just one that's in my mind because again, she talked about it in this group and about how there's not enough protection for victims. There's too many rights granted to people because biologically they produced a child.
and being a parent takes a lot more than an egg or a sperm. And this little girl, he killed his child, literally within hours of them presenting evidence to a judge that he was not safe to have her. And so I hear what you're saying though, and I guess the point you're trying to make is that, which I'm like destroying, sorry.
Chuck LaFLange (50:35.35)
awful.
Chuck LaFLange (50:45.206)
That's, yeah. Yeah.
Hahaha!
Lisa (50:52.782)
But you know, there's still ways to go on that. But I agree that I think if people start asking these questions and not just sitting back and being like, yeah, like evil human did evil things, it's like sick person did something evil.
Chuck LaFLange (51:08.95)
Absolutely, there's a chance to get in front of this stuff. And perhaps that judge, perhaps the medical community that was involved in this circumstance, perhaps, you've heard me say this about other circumstances that we've been involved in as a team, maybe we need to start calling people out. Because nobody wants to be the person who could have prevented this.
right, but so long as we're pointing fingers at him, we're never going to go back and do that. And I don't think blaming a judge or blaming a doctor is going to help. But I think if our legal and medical communities are...
aware of the possibility that this could come back and bite me in the ass if I don't do something to, you know, right? If something tragic happens, then I think things change, right? That's the only thing that's gonna change. Otherwise, we're just giving them a fucking cop -out. Sorry for my language, but that's how I feel about it, right? You know?
Lisa (52:07.182)
Yeah, and I feel like I see this, right? I see this, for example, in patients who get admitted to the hospital who are difficult to deal with or, you know, and there's huge, huge bed pressures, right? Like, we're getting emails all the time about like, you know, there's this many people waiting for beds, like, please expedite any discharges you can, blah, blah, blah. So there's these pressures to just push people to the side, get people out.
And I think there needs to be a lot more pausing and questioning and asking, you know, what are the risks? Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (52:44.694)
pressure back. Let's turn that pressure back and say, get us more beds. How about that? Yes, I know you do and I love that about you Lisa. Get us more beds because this is the reality. And that's driven by politics, which is driven by public opinion. And at the end of the day, somebody said this.
Lisa (52:49.612)
Yep. I say that all the time. Yeah. Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (53:09.686)
I can't remember what the quote was I read online, but it was like, we're not dealing with, the problem isn't with the system, the problem is with public opinion. That's where everything changes, right? The moment the public starts treating this differently and elected officials have to, you know.
produce policy that reflects public opinion, because that's what they do for the most part, right? Let's be honest, we can blame politicians all we want, but if you keep electing them, other fuckers, that keeps doing the same things, then it goes back to society thing, right? But yeah, I think I'm getting kind of eclectic in my thoughts on that, but I just, yeah, I think we could do better as a society, right? And...
The moral failing folks is treating this shit like it's a moral failing. That is the problem here. Right? You know. Yeah. Right? You know.
Lisa (54:03.726)
I love that. It's so good. It's such a, yeah, it just nails it on the head. It's so simple and so true. And I just feel like, you know, all the well people, you know, all the well people that encounter those who are sick, it's like, I expect it's like me, I expect more of myself, I expect me to do better. You know, I don't expect my sick patient to do better. I expect me to do better. Like, that's my job. You know, like,
Chuck LaFLange (54:25.492)
Yes.
Of course you do. Of course you do, right? Right? Right? If more thought like you did, I mean, geez, right? Can you imagine, I'm going to put up a hypothetical in front of you, that you're the doctor that saw this person, that saw this man, months ago, a year ago, and being held accountable.
Lisa (54:46.7)
Mm -hmm.
Lisa (54:52.654)
Mm -hmm.
Chuck LaFLange (54:54.07)
Right? How do your actions change moving forward? How did that of your colleagues? Right? Hell, if you saw somebody three degrees removed from you in the medical community being held accountable for an atrocity like this, do your actions change? Damn straight they do. Every time. Right? Every time. So that's where I think some accountability needs to come back and it's not about blaming an individual.
Lisa (55:08.174)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (55:21.814)
especially an individual that's pressured. But if that's what it takes, you know, if that's what it takes, then I don't really care, right?
Lisa (55:25.39)
And I feel too that like part of it, yes, is like, you know, if there was accountability, would people's actions change? I think we know the answer to that. But I think also supporting people doing these jobs instead of pressuring them based on numbers, you know, instead of counting, you know, how many days has this person been in the hospital? That's not the question. The question is, why are they still in the hospital and do you need more support to get them better?
Chuck LaFLange (55:43.51)
Yes, 100%.
Chuck LaFLange (55:54.486)
Yes, right, right, yeah.
Lisa (55:55.47)
You know, like I always say, like if I had a patient who didn't need to be there, they would have been discharged yesterday. So if they're still here, I don't care what the number says as to how many days they've been here. They're here because they need to be. So instead of pointing out to me how many days my patient's been in a bed, why don't you come and say, what supports can we add that will help us get this person well and out of the hospital?
Chuck LaFLange (56:03.094)
Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (56:10.454)
Yes.
Chuck LaFLange (56:23.638)
Yes. Yeah. Right.
Lisa (56:25.39)
Because I think it's not just like, certainly I see it all the time from a medical perspective, but I suspect it's the same with police. Like, you know, they probably have remand centers that are overflowing. So they encounter these individuals and if they're like, you know what, we can give them a dose of Haldol and he'll settle down and then we can leave. It's like, well, you know, it's the same thing. Everyone's got all these pressures to do with hospitals are overcrowded.
Chuck LaFLange (56:38.934)
Mm -hmm.
Lisa (56:52.91)
prisons are overcrowded, remands are overcrowded. And I think if there was less focus on counting those numbers and counting those beds and counting those days and more effort into how do we prevent people ending up in prison? How do we prevent, you know, young people who suffer adverse childhood events? How do we stop them from ending up in psychiatry units?
You know, what supports do we need to make available to children and to families and to doctors and to police? Like, it's just that perspective shift. It's the same problem. But if the focus was what more can we do and how do we do it and what supports are needed, I think that it would change a lot of things.
Chuck LaFLange (57:39.798)
Absolutely. Well said. Well said. Well said. Wow. Okay.
Lisa (57:44.662)
Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (57:48.118)
I think, I mean we're at the hour mark here and I think we've talked about what I wanted to talk about. It's something we could go on about for hours. I think I might have said that at the end of 75 % of the episodes I've ever recorded on the Ash Toast Podcast. Right? We are nine days away from a year from when I started this show. February 27th. Yeah, February 27th is when it happened. Yeah, yeah, right.
Lisa (58:01.55)
Yeah.
Lisa (58:10.094)
Really?
Lisa (58:14.156)
how.
crazy.
Chuck LaFLange (58:18.454)
That is crazy, isn't it? It's absolutely crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Second last day of the month or last day of the... No, yeah. Third last day of the month. You know what I'm saying. Whatever. Blah. February. Stupid month. I'm reading your mail. I've never used that one. I have to, yeah, I have to use that one. Of course.
Lisa (58:20.418)
February 27th, okay.
Lisa (58:28.686)
Yeah. I'm reading your mail. I got you.
Chuck LaFLange (58:40.95)
This is episode 219, I do believe. You can imagine that. If you do the math on that, there's only 52 weeks in a year.
Lisa (58:49.966)
I know.
Chuck LaFLange (58:53.238)
And for all 219 of these episodes we have done daily gratitude. So that brings us to my favorite part of the show. That is the daily gratitude. What you got for us today, Lisa?
Lisa (59:04.302)
You know, we talked a little bit about it before we started to record, and we talked about this a little bit last week. But the friend of mine who had reached out for some help, who again, our relationship is not rooted at all in my medical background, in my involvement with this podcast, in my empathy or understanding or compassion for people who suffer an addiction.
And because of this show, she reached out to me for help. Also, because of this show, she's now connected to some people who are a part of this show and getting help.
Um, you know, and, and she has reached out to me a number of times in the last two weeks for help at times and at other times expressing just intense gratitude. Um, and a huge part of the reason that I have been in a very privileged position to be able to connect her to people is because of Ashes to Awesome.
And, you know, so not to sound like a broken record, but I do think that what you have created is incredible. And I think that you have brought together so many caring, supportive people who legitimately want to help, are available to help, are willing to help. And.
It's just really amazing to get to see it in action with somebody that I know personally. You know, and it's making a difference. And she, you know, she has a family. So it's like, not only are we helping her, but this in turn is helping her whole family, her immediate family, her extended family, by helping one person.
Lisa (01:01:18.222)
You know, it's just like we, we often say that when there's one person suffering an addiction, that there's at least 10 others who are suffering as a consequence of the addiction. But again, to flip that perspective around, when we help one person, you know, that trickles to their children, their partners, their extended family, their friendships. And so it's just, yeah, like super,
grateful for what you have created in bringing all the people together that you have brought together. And I do think that the reason people that you have on here come back, you know, they come back every week or they come back every time they're asked to come back. It's like you are the anchor to the show. And I think that
You know, it's like when people say to me, well, I have great friends and I'll say to them, why? You don't have great friends if you're an asshole. You have good friends because you're good, right? And so, you know, I think, especially as you bring up that, you know, you're coming up to your year on doing the show, it's, you know, you're making a difference. You have created something that's making a difference. And...
Again, as someone with that extra soft spot for kids, it's like to see a little girl and to know that this show is going to help her mom, which is going to help her.
Yeah, that's big.
Chuck LaFLange (01:02:59.606)
son.
Lisa (01:03:02.702)
Yeah, but it's yeah, it's just it's true. Like, I feel like, you know, in my role in a hospital, like I help people a lot. And I get that theoretically. But somehow this particular situation in this particular case, and maybe it's because I have more of a personal connection to it. Maybe it's because, you know, there's children involved, I don't know, but like seeing.
Chuck LaFLange (01:03:03.222)
me again.
Lisa (01:03:30.222)
it in action and seeing somebody get help because of this show. You know, it's just huge.
Lisa (01:03:42.062)
Ha, made you cry.
Chuck LaFLange (01:03:45.494)
been fighting it for the last three minutes.
Lisa (01:03:47.886)
Hahaha!
Chuck LaFLange (01:03:53.43)
I'm gonna leave my gratitude at two. One, for everything you just said. Thank you. Validation of purpose is so important. And that is a lot of validation of purpose. My second gratitude, of course, as always, is to every person who continues to watch, listen, support.
Everything that we're doing, every time you like, comment, share, hit the subscribe button down at the bottom. You are getting me a little bit closer to living my best life. My best life is to make a humble living spreading the message. The message is this. If you're in active addiction right now, today could be the day that you start a lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call into detox, go to a meeting. I don't really care. Do whatever it is you have to do to get that journey started because it is so much better than the alternative.
loved one who's suffering an addiction right now. You've just taken the time to listen to this conversation. If you just take one more minute out of your day and text that person, let them know they're loved. Use the words.
Lisa (01:05:00.974)
You are loved.
Chuck LaFLange (01:05:03.05)
That little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings it back.
Chuck LaFLange (01:05:09.142)
Fuck you guys.
Shattered Stigma
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