Mike Miller is back, and this time he is addressing some of the toxic behaviors that can happen in recovery circles. Often this can lead to a negative or even unwelcoming feeling in a place where the life saving fellowship people in early recovery need, is most easily found. Mike gets back to the basics while calling on the community as a whole to do better. Learn more about this episode, Mike himself, and see more from him at www.a2apodcast.com/traumaTitle Sponsor for today is:
Yatra Trauma Centre
Chuck LaFLange (00:00.)
Hello everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds. Welcome to another episode of the Yachter's Toffs and Podcast. I'm your host, Chuck LaFlandre, joining me in virtual studio on my side of the world. It's Mike Miller from the Yachter Center. How you doing today, Mike?
mike miller (00:04.639)
I am good, Chuck. Happy to be here. A bit of a different sort of deal to be here on a Wednesday and yeah, it's good.
Chuck LaFLange (00:15.688)
Good good Yeah, it is a yeah it is it is so and speaking to that Our my regular coach Ryan. She's got some personal things going on. So for for today, this is what we're doing We'll see what the future brings right but so to anybody that's curious Mike we were talking before the show about Kind of some of the toxic behaviors that we're running into online
And there's a meme that I want to bring up and just now that I'm thinking about it though And of course we didn't discuss this but hey the best episodes are made that way Maybe give us a bit of your history as it pertains to 12 step because that's where this conversation is going to get into and Just kind of establish some some credibility if you could, right? Yeah
mike miller (00:59.135)
Okay. Well, I don't know if I'll establish credibility, but I'll tell you my story. So background, I started drinking when I was 12, added in marijuana by 14, hallucinogens by 15, cocaine at 16, heroin by 18.
Chuck LaFLange (01:15.528)
you
mike miller (01:29.631)
you know, jail at 18, selling drugs, like, you know, the whole like drugs were my life kind of thing for a long time. First went to 12 step treatment when I was 29, maybe. And then had almost a year clean in 12 step. But you know, didn't really know that much when I started hanging out. I had a bunch of friends that got clean before me, guys I used to use with. And so I kind of thought,
Chuck LaFLange (01:43.848)
Okay.
mike miller (01:58.655)
You get recovery by osmosis. Like I'll hang out with them. They're like all a few years clean. I'll do what they're doing and I'll stay clean. But, you know, I wasn't doing all the stuff new people kind of need to do. And, uh, eventually relapsed at just under a year, um, took a dirty cake, right? Uh, what's.
Chuck LaFLange (02:10.952)
Oh, dirty, I've never heard that term. It's pretty obvious what it means, but just in case somebody doesn't know, what do you mean by dirty cake?
mike miller (02:21.151)
Yeah. Yeah. Relapsed at 11 and a half months, but I had already at my home group, we had already arranged to have celebrate the year clean. And this was in Vancouver where you would bring a cake and celebrate the sort of birthday, if you will. But yeah, I had used. And so my mom was there and her husband, who's been basically the one solid male role model I've had since I was about 12 years old. And it was the first time he ever said, like they got asked to share.
And so he said, Mike's my son and like, I'm just crying and everyone's like, he must be so proud. And I'm just like, so shame bound because I'm loaded. And yeah, it was rough. And then I went on a tear after that. Like I'd only used not to minimize it, but just factually, I'd used two times in those two weeks. And then after that cake, I just went on a tear for like another, probably a year and a half. Then I went.
Chuck LaFLange (02:54.28)
Wow. Yep. Ooh. Ooh.
mike miller (03:18.207)
back into, and during that time, like try meeting here, try meeting there, you know, what didn't really take, if you will. I wasn't, to be honest, I wasn't really trying to be clean. I was trying to get my significant other at the time off my back, you know, just trying to do some damage control and convince her that I was like making an effort and, and I wasn't, but you know, that was where I was at at the time. And, you know,
Chuck LaFLange (03:24.072)
Yeah? Yep.
mike miller (03:44.927)
Thank goodness for that third tradition, right? Like the desire. Like I wanted to be clean. I just kind of didn't know how to do it and wasn't willing to put in the work. So anyway, I ended up like using for another year and a half or so. And then went back to treatment, 12 step place, AA based, very, you know, is publicly funded. So not a lot of people with higher education, qualification skills, et cetera.
Chuck LaFLange (04:02.216)
you
mike miller (04:14.015)
You know, they quite often hired from within the client base. You know, people that have been around for a while, they would end up hiring on as support workers. And I stayed there for six months. You know, you had to read a chapter of the big book every day. You know, all the groups weren't actually therapy groups, but they were like, sort of like studying the big book and that kind of stuff. Got to go to meetings, do your step work, do all that. So it was very, very 12 step based stuff. But it gave me safety and structure and support.
Chuck LaFLange (04:27.016)
you
mike miller (04:43.999)
And so I stayed there for six months. Then I, then, then they did what they do, which is they hired me. Um, and I couldn't live there and work there. So they sent me to there's over living place. And, uh, at that point it was in like a sort of satellite neighborhood, like a town outside of where I was at. And, um, so I was living in the sober house, getting on the bus and heading to the center to work. And, uh, I got a home group in the community that I had moved into. Started going to lots of meetings.
got a service position at my home group. This one, I'm like six months clean, so can't even remember what it was, to be honest, the first position I got. But, you know, basically they got the NA railroad going on. So like, you know, they were like, oh, you'd be good for this position. I was like, uh, okay. And they're like, we nominate you and then who's all in favor. And I got elected into some position that I didn't know what it was, but what it did is it brought me accountability. I had to show up every week. I started building relationships with these people.
Chuck LaFLange (05:34.792)
you
you
mike miller (05:43.999)
I was committed to going, so I was going to like lots of meetings every week, doing service, had a sponsor. And so after that, I went from doing service at my home group to doing service at the area level in NA, which AA I think it's called intergroup. Different language, same thing. So people from all the home groups around go to a one area. And I got a job as the group service representative and.
Chuck LaFLange (05:48.488)
you
Okay.
mike miller (06:12.159)
that was my service position. And then I was, got elected at area. I was vice chair of area for a while. Then I got elected in as a regional committee member. So I was going to regional doing service, like this is over a span of years, right? Then I moved out of that community and stopped doing service because I was in a new community and didn't, I was working a lot, you know, I'd done all the like going to school and I was working in treatment through this whole time. So I worked at a 12 step place.
Chuck LaFLange (06:20.008)
Okay.
Chuck LaFLange (06:33.064)
Mm -hmm.
mike miller (06:41.183)
for a couple of years, then I moved and worked at another 12 step place for a couple more years. Then I was doing outpatient treatment, doing medical monitoring and making sure that people, so I was working with safety sensitive individuals. So like cops, sheriffs, nurses, pilots, city workers, longshoremen, bus drivers, if they had presented at work with a substance use issue, they would see the addictions doctors I worked with, they'd get sent to treatment. And when they came back, they had to come and see me.
Chuck LaFLange (07:04.68)
Okay. Yeah.
mike miller (07:10.239)
once a week and I would do breath, urine, blood or hair samples on them to make sure that they were actually staying sober. And I remember one guy saying like, you just want to catch me being loaded. And I'm like, dude, I'm like a 12 step guy. I'm clean. Like I don't want to catch you being loaded. I want to prove you're clean so that you can get your license back and go back to work. So I did that for a few years and do an outpatient treatment. Then I went back to working in a rehab that was not 12 step based in Thailand and did that for.
Chuck LaFLange (07:34.44)
Okay.
mike miller (07:39.423)
the next nine years or so. But yeah, so even in Thailand, I moved here when I was almost 10 years clean and started going to meetings, started getting doing service again. I was a programming chairperson for an area convention where it was my job to get speakers internationally from all over the world to come and speak at this convention. And so yeah, there's been like, I'm over 20 years clean and I identify as a 12 step member.
Chuck LaFLange (07:46.088)
you
Okay. Identify as or? Yeah, yeah.
mike miller (08:07.903)
And I definitely go a lot less now than I went to in the beginning, but I'll never not kind of view that. Yeah. And it's crucial. Like I wouldn't be where I'm sitting today if I wasn't immersed in it, especially for the first five years. And then, um, yeah. So I think I have a pretty good working knowledge of the steps and the traditions through the service and, you know, the, the local, uh,
Chuck LaFLange (08:22.44)
you
Chuck LaFLange (08:30.696)
you
mike miller (08:37.183)
guides to service and yeah, I've been pretty involved for a long time, I think. And now I have less involvement now, but I still think I'm fairly well -versed in it. If that makes me credible, I don't know, maybe.
Chuck LaFLange (08:38.087)
I would say it most certainly does. I mean, it's the most history any guest has ever had on the show as far as 12 -stepping goes. So I mean, it's safe to say you know your shit, right? Certainly more so than me. I mean, I'm not a 12 -stepper now, though I've often said my first 30 days doesn't happen without.
mike miller (09:00.575)
Bye.
Chuck LaFLange (09:07.336)
room so you know I very much do believe in it. However, what we've cut it's come up quite a bit in social media as of late but throughout the life of the show it's it's it's been an underlying fear of mine that when I bring somebody who's a 12 -stepper on that they are militant even or kind of zealot -ish about about the 12 -step and
mike miller (09:33.023)
Do the steps or die, motherfucker.
Chuck LaFLange (09:35.848)
You know, 12 steps are no step in all those things that you hear, right? Specifically, though, yeah. And I will say, I have had this concern, I don't know, a dozen times out of 223 episodes. Literally every one of those times that I've had it guessed on that I was like, oh, is this going to be one of those? It's never been. Literally every person that's come on, it's been an unfounded fear. It's turned out to be this whatever works for you kind of attitude, right? Which I do appreciate. However,
mike miller (09:56.127)
Yeah. Yeah.
mike miller (10:03.423)
Yeah, yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (10:05.768)
in the world of social media and keyboard warriors and the kind of I mean, hey, the internet has done so much good for recovery but there's this other kind of undertone specifically about being clean and sober, right? So...
mike miller (10:09.087)
Mm. Mm.
mike miller (10:24.191)
I mean, the internet was supposed to be like access to all the world's information in one place and this wonderful, glorious thing. And then of course, it's like also massively toxic in a lot of different areas. And I do know, like, I'll tell you right now, just the fact that we're talking about 12 step stuff and, and it's not going to be a hundred percent glowing, I think, like, you know, because we're going to be honest about like the really, really good stuff. And then maybe.
Chuck LaFLange (10:31.464)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
mike miller (10:53.983)
some of the limitations of it or some of our experiences that maybe haven't been amazing or that other people's experiences haven't been amazing. Like my guts just churned because I have a fear that I will like I'm sticking my head above the parapet and I'm just going to be like totally targeted. But I, you know, really clear, like I am a huge proponent of people doing 12 steps. I also take one of those principles that they say are the cornerstone principles. You know, they say honesty, open mind and a
Chuck LaFLange (11:02.216)
I... I... yes.
Chuck LaFLange (11:08.008)
Yes, yes.
mike miller (11:23.615)
willingness, we're well on our way. And I take the honesty and the open -mindedness and I shine those back at 12 steps and go like, well, honestly, the program is pretty solid. And honestly, there are members of it who might divert from some of those principles in how they are, because like, let's just be honest again, using honesty. You don't show up there because you're well. Like that's just not like when you walk in the door, you're probably not at the peak of health or you wouldn't be walking in.
Chuck LaFLange (11:45.736)
Yes. Yep.
mike miller (11:53.151)
Um, and then if we're open -minded, like if I shine that at the 12 step program, like there's a lot of really, really good, amazing, useful stuff. I wouldn't be sitting here today without it. You wouldn't be sitting here today without it. We would have never met without it. Um, and yet, yeah, but also like, if I'm actually living by the principle of open -mindedness, I should be able to understand that there are other ways that people get well or use to, um, bolster.
Chuck LaFLange (12:05.288)
Right? On and on and on and on it goes, right? Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (12:18.024)
you
mike miller (12:23.007)
their recovery that go that dovetail nicely with 12 step. And so I think, yeah, so I get all nervous just being like, if I'm not just going to give 100 % five star, I recommend kind of review to it, like that I'm gonna get like lambasted by people.
Chuck LaFLange (12:37.576)
And you know what, if you click on Mike's icon inside, you know, 808podcast .com slash trauma, you'll see for anybody who's listening or watching right now, the first episode that Mike did with us, after that episode, he was quite concerned, if you don't mind me saying, about some of the things that you said might be misconstrued or whatever. And of course, I can totally appreciate why, because it can be a very reactive community, I guess, seemingly. And again, that fear.
mike miller (12:52.319)
I don't know man, yeah.
mike miller (13:00.735)
Yeah. Well, people, but people care about it a lot. This is the thing. It's like, of course, it's changed their whole lives. And I think, but, but I think what happens is for some people, it shifts from, like, I'm recovering to live to like, I'm living to recover and my identity.
Chuck LaFLange (13:07.816)
But they do, they do, right? And for good reason, for good fucking reason, right? Yes.
mike miller (13:30.719)
isn't I'm Mike and I'm a therapist who runs a trauma treatment center and I'm a husband and I'm a friend and I'm a tattoo enthusiast and I'm a motorcycle rider. It comes down to this very thin description. I'm a recovering addict 12 step person and if you say anything about the 12 steps, it rocks a bit of my identity because I've put so much, I've invested so much in this being the way.
Chuck LaFLange (13:32.008)
Yes.
mike miller (14:00.287)
And for me, it might have been Dawei, but if someone else says like, hey, maybe it's like 90 % great, but not 100 % perfect. Like I might get really reactive to that because it's threatening, like something that I view as being very sacred to me, being very important to me, transformational life changing, et cetera. But then that can come out like what happens when we get threatened, right? I feel hurt, I feel fear and that doesn't feel very powerful. So then what comes after that anger.
Chuck LaFLange (14:01.704)
Yes.
mike miller (14:28.511)
And if you're on a social media sort of setting, like you said, keyboard warriors, like lashing out on internet is not how people usually, like people don't usually interact like that in real life. But when you have that barrier of the computer or the screen or the phone or whatever, like people let fly with some stuff. Yeah. But sometimes.
Chuck LaFLange (14:30.952)
you
No, right? It's crazy what people will say. Yeah, right? Oh, it's ugly. It's ugly, right? And I did want to open this up with a meme, or not with a meme, with a screenshot of a conversation that was online, a comment to somebody that really, it just.
I think for lack of a better way to say that. And I'll read this comment to you. No, this isn't one of the angry ones. This is one of the ones that the anger has affected. So this fella said, the sober community is by far the most toxic community I have ever seen, man. All have almost died, destroyed our lives to finally get off hard drugs, even if you're on subs or methadone, just to get completely put down about being a junkie in denial. What a shit show. Right?
mike miller (15:08.479)
Oh shit, here we go.
mike miller (15:16.095)
Okay. Okay.
Chuck LaFLange (15:35.624)
And to me, that is horrible. That somebody feels, that one person feels that way about what is realistically the go -to kind of only way that you can find fellowship in your early days, right? As you're more into recovery and you get to meet more people. Yes, right, right? Yes, yes, right? Yeah. Without a doubt.
mike miller (15:39.423)
Yeah, I just.
mike miller (15:53.215)
Well, it's definitely the most prevalent way and most accessible and most prescribed, not just by people in it, but by professionals and medical people and counselors. And yeah, yeah, yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (16:05.416)
Of course it is, right? If you've gone to a meeting, right? That's, I mean, right? So for one person to feel that way and to say it, you can have how many people? And then if you take and really, if you, yes, and if you extrapolate that, how many people didn't go back to a meeting? How many people went back out? And how many people died? Because they're feeling that way, right? You know?
mike miller (16:20.191)
How many aren't saying it? Yeah.
mike miller (16:26.655)
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, yeah, well, um, yeah, I mean, it makes me sad. I mean, also, like, to be honest, like, this sounds like a person who was hurt. And then, you know, there's a bit of hyperbolic, like the most toxic, like it's, you know, like, it's obviously this person's quite activated. But that might be their experience for sure. I don't want to minimize that, but it definitely sounds like a pretty emotional post. It makes me sad that anyone that would go to a place that
Chuck LaFLange (16:33.64)
Thank you.
Yeah.
mike miller (16:57.535)
I think saved my life would have an experience where they're like, oh, that's not accessible to me. When, you know, I always go to this, it's like, if I want to know how to act in a 12 step room, like, I just go to the traditions, right? So what my experience is when, you know, I'll use your words, like some people can, I think you said like, be sort of like zealous, right? Like,
Chuck LaFLange (16:58.824)
Right?
Chuck LaFLange (17:13.575)
Ah, yes. Yes.
mike miller (17:25.183)
like almost like zealots and I think that some of those people while standing up for 12 step as like the only way to do it, like this guy saying if you're on subs or methadone or whatever, you're a junkie. So basically it's saying like he's been sort of judged or ostracized for being on some form of a replacement therapy is what it sounds like, right? I mean, I'm reading into that, but that's what it sounds like.
Chuck LaFLange (17:27.848)
. . .
Chuck LaFLange (17:44.648)
Yep, yep. Yeah.
mike miller (17:54.559)
And if that's being done by a 12 -step member, it's really weird because a 12 -step member who's actually living by a 12 -step program would look at tradition one that says, our common welfare comes first. Our personal recovery depends on NA unity, which means I don't ostracize anyone. Tradition three says, the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop using, right?
Chuck LaFLange (18:01.832)
Yes. Yes.
mike miller (18:22.911)
You know, and I'm an NA guy, not an AA guy. Although, like I said, I read a chapter of the big book every day for six months while I was in treatment, because I was afraid to not do it. And I knew that book pretty well in and out. And then when I worked there, I started teaching that stuff, but at least studying it with people. But as an NA guy, like there's actually a pamphlet that's called In Times of Illness, like an informational pamphlet, IP number, whatever, I don't know. I'm not that good at it. I can't quote page numbers and everything. But, uh,
Chuck LaFLange (18:28.552)
Okay.
mike miller (18:52.063)
That pamphlet in times of illness says like, sometimes we are required to take medicine, right? Like it's right in the program. It's in the program. And people who are like, no, you need to do this program are like, but you're not even following the program. Because if you were, you would understand that we don't ostracize people. We don't judge people that they don't need to be doing it your way, whatever your way is. They need to be doing it the program's way. And the program's way says,
Chuck LaFLange (18:58.408)
Yes. Yeah. Mm -hmm.
mike miller (19:20.191)
All you need to do is have a desire to stop using. We don't turn our backs on each other. We don't judge people. We actually tradition. I'm going to get it wrong. I'm going to say tradition.
Chuck LaFLange (19:20.232)
Yep.
Chuck LaFLange (19:25.992)
. . . .
mike miller (19:36.159)
But anyway, there's one of the traditions, I wanna say six, it's not gonna be six, that says, or maybe it's in how it works, one of the readings, it says, we have no opinions on outside issues, right? Your personal confidential medical information is an outside issue to my recovery. Like it's literally, it's literally none of my business. So I know nowadays, like it's a lot around the math stuff and around like,
Chuck LaFLange (19:44.392)
Yes.
Chuck LaFLange (19:54.76)
100%. Yeah. Yeah.
mike miller (20:04.863)
the substitutions, the replacement therapies and all that, opioids in particular. But when I got clean, there was a bit of that with the methadone, but there were people who were telling people in the rooms, you're not clean if you're on antidepressants. And I remember thinking, you're really fucking dangerous, pardon my language, but like, you're not a doctor, you're not this person's doctor, and you don't know what happens if they destabilize by coming off this medicine.
Chuck LaFLange (20:11.784)
Yep.
Chuck LaFLange (20:21.288)
Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (20:27.464)
Bye.
mike miller (20:31.999)
They've come here for help around some form of substance use. They're definitely not taking antidepressants to get high. And if they go off of this because you've shamed them, what's going to happen to them as far as stabilization and in their recovery, but in their like mental health. And to me, it's like, again, the program doesn't fucking say that anywhere. And yet some people in the fellowship who probably for whatever reason, maybe they're just not well or not as well as they.
Chuck LaFLange (20:37.8)
Yeah. No. No, it doesn't.
mike miller (21:01.919)
could be, I'm trying to be like kind of gentle about it, but you know, or maybe they've been taught that because sometimes we're a bit like the blind leading the blind. Like we hear something and then we parrot it and repeat it. You know, like when you get clean, they go, don't get in a relationship for a year. And I like, you know, sometimes I kind of play the devil's advocate and I go, show me where it says that. Like it literally doesn't say that. Now there's logic behind it. Like I'm not saying it's a completely invalid, but someone heard it, it sounded cool. So they repeated it and someone heard that and it sounded cool. And then it becomes.
Chuck LaFLange (21:08.648)
Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yes.
mike miller (21:29.983)
almost this thing like it's part of the program, but it's actually not part of the program. That's it. I'm not saying it's not wise in any way, but don't try to weaponize it against someone. And I think the thing about the medicine is like, it's irresponsible to try to judge someone for whatever medication they might be on. Because it can be really dangerous because like how people get well is none of my business.
Chuck LaFLange (21:37.832)
Yes.
Chuck LaFLange (21:54.632)
It's really not, right? It's really not.
mike miller (21:58.815)
And I know that people get very triggered and activated when other people are on some of these medications. And I always get like, like quite curious actually, right? I like curiosity is like one of these like aspects of self that I like to kind of engage in if I can. And it's like, why does it bother you so much that someone's on medication? Like, why is it?
Chuck LaFLange (22:10.344)
Mm -hmm.
What speaks directly to my meme most recently, if I'm spending my time judging other people's past recover, then perhaps it's my recovery I should be judging. Right? And it's right there, man. Why? Why are you so angry? Why do you feel the need to be angry enough to hurt somebody else with your words? Right? That's trying, you know? So...
mike miller (22:28.767)
Yeah, yeah. Mm.
Yeah.
mike miller (22:41.823)
Yeah, yeah. Well, and what step is that exactly? I don't have a copy of the steps here. Which step is it where you judge other people and make them feel like shit for trying to get well? I don't really know. Now, you know, I would like to say this because of course there's that part of me that's afraid I'm gonna get fucking lambasted here. This is not the majority of people. Like you said, 12 times out of 12, it's been an unfounded fear. Like this is not the majority of people, but it's just like,
Chuck LaFLange (22:48.456)
Yeah. Right.
Chuck LaFLange (23:07.24)
Yes.
mike miller (23:10.751)
If you talk about politics online, it's the vocal minority, right? People who like need to have their voice heard. So I don't want to like, you know, I'm a 12 step member for a reason. Probably 85 % of my friends in my life that I value a lot are 12 step members. Like, you know, and that's just because most of the people that I know that are 12 set members do the very best to be the best people they can be. And it's very important to them to be the best people they can be. So I just want to.
Chuck LaFLange (23:11.336)
Yes, of course it is.
Chuck LaFLange (23:23.432)
Yep. Yes.
Absolutely, which has absolutely been my experience on the show 100 % right and at least Lisa quite often speaks to and just because she's a person that said it not of course She's not a 12 -step or dr. Lisa my co -host from the weekend ramble, but She says it's different rooms different You know every you fill up with the room full of these souls in a room full of these souls and different things are gonna happen
mike miller (23:41.951)
Yeah, yeah. And that's my experience in life.
mike miller (23:56.671)
Excuse me.
Chuck LaFLange (23:59.4)
Right. And so, you know, she was kind of speaking to Alan on, I guess, in her experience, right, because her experience was not positive. However, right. And I think in somewhere in this online mess of arguments and comments that I've gotten myself into over the past week, few days, whatever, has been a qualifier that I had to say in there is literally zero of these groups were started with the intent on making people feel this way. I would be willing to bet.
mike miller (24:00.639)
Yeah, for sure.
mike miller (24:05.087)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
mike miller (24:17.503)
Yeah.
mike miller (24:27.455)
Yeah, well, and it's...
Chuck LaFLange (24:29.256)
Literally zero of the people got into them with the intent on making people feel this way. Right? So it's something that happens with evolution, personalities start to take over. You know, there's in there, isn't there something about that too? Personalities and principles, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
mike miller (24:34.655)
Great. Yeah.
mike miller (24:40.319)
Yeah. Well, I mean, well, there is there's well, yeah, principles for personalities, you know, that's that's tradition 12. But there's also concept. Oh, I don't know. So so the people don't like there's the 12 steps. There's the 12 traditions. There's the 12 concepts of service. And one of those concepts of service talks about the spirit of rotation, so that different people are always in different service positions, so that a room doesn't take on the personality of any sort of individual. It doesn't become.
Chuck LaFLange (24:51.464)
you
Chuck LaFLange (25:07.336)
Yeah.
mike miller (25:08.991)
Chuck's meeting, it's like, no, that's an AA meeting that Chuck is a member of, right? And so it's hard in small communities, like people, sometimes there's only one person willing to keep the meetings open, but yeah. So the rotation stuff is important, but I might've sort of gone off on a bit of a tangent there. But when you say people didn't show up there to make people feel like that, of course they didn't. They showed up there because they were desperate and wanted to get some help.
Chuck LaFLange (25:11.912)
Yeah. Yes, yeah. No.
mike miller (25:37.503)
And then this is the part that I find like forever baffling to me is when people get clean or sober or whatever we want to call it, they're in recovery. When they start judging other people who aren't as far along the continuum of recovery as they are, I'm like, where is your empathy man? Like I see like friends of mine and you know, and I can kind of understand it, but they like say they live in an area where there's like crime.
because like, you know, and let's name why it is. There's a systemic problem where people suffering from substance use disorders, addiction, whatever you want to call it, can't access enough resources to actually get well. So they're left to kind of like, you know, find their way through this thing. And sometimes that they resort to crime to do that. And I get friends of mine that are clean, like literally using words like fucking junkie and stuff. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like.
Chuck LaFLange (26:11.592)
Oh.
mike miller (26:31.807)
There's just something in me that's like, I understand being upset if your car got broken into or if your neighbor's car got broken into, like I get that, right? But like, but like, can you, can you not empathize with someone who's that desperate that that seems like a solution in the moment? Like that's someone who's in a lot of pain. Their behavior is shit for sure, right? But can we separate the person from the behavior and be like, what's driving that behavior is someone who's in a lot of pain? And so I...
Chuck LaFLange (26:38.632)
Yes. Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (26:45.448)
Absolutely, right.
mike miller (26:58.143)
When it's people in 12 -step rooms who are judging other people, whether it's harm reduction measures or whatever, I always just think, how did we get to a place where that's part of a program of spiritual principles? Which I don't really know what that means, because spirituality means different things to everybody, but I can't see how judgment shaming and ostracizing is a spiritual...
Chuck LaFLange (27:02.088)
Ever. Yeah, in any, whatever your spiritual values are or beliefs are.
mike miller (27:25.951)
a set of spiritual principles. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (27:31.848)
Yeah, man, it's my experience. Go ahead, go ahead. No.
mike miller (27:32.351)
Yeah.
mike miller (27:35.807)
I was gonna say, can I tell you, like I'm sweating right now, just having this conversation, because I watch you on social media sometimes, like weigh into some of these or make a comment or put a meme. And I always go, oh, fuck man, like I wouldn't put myself out there like that. And so here I am kind of putting myself out here, very aware that I'm trying to have a balanced kind of view of it and be like, you know, what we were saying beforehand, it's like, what I'm actually doing is defending the 12 step program.
Chuck LaFLange (27:46.984)
Alright.
Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (27:58.504)
you
100%. Yes. Yes.
mike miller (28:04.255)
Because if people actually live by what it says in it, none of this shit ever happens. Period. Like it doesn't. We live by the traditions, we live by the principles, none of this happens. We get people in and we go, yeah man, you're having a tough time and oh, you're gonna do this thing in order to get to there? Cool. Like, let's get you to there. How can I support you in getting to there? Because you know what? I've sat where you're sitting and it sucks. And...
Chuck LaFLange (28:08.936)
Yes, yes, yes. 100%.
Chuck LaFLange (28:19.208)
you
Yeah, right. Yeah, it does. Yeah, it does. Right.
mike miller (28:32.031)
And we know the way out, so follow us. Instead of being like, oh, you're fucking doing it wrong. I find it incredibly frustrating. I find it heartbreaking. I understand why people like the guy that posted that comment, why he would lose faith in the program's ability to help him, if that's what he's coming up against. And again, vocal minority, not most people. In my experience, most people have huge hearts. I have a friend of mine who...
Chuck LaFLange (28:48.872)
Yeah.
mike miller (29:00.543)
Every Christmas he opens his house for people who are like sort of NA orphans, you know what I mean? Like their parents aren't around or their families aren't around or they're single or they can't see their kids or whatever. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, that is the norm, I think actually. That is the norm. People like having that type of openheartedness. So I just wanna be like, again, like it's not everyone, but when you see it, it's so powerful.
Chuck LaFLange (29:07.848)
Right? Which would be kind of the norm, maybe not that specific thing, but definitely the normal, in my experience, right? In my experience with the rooms, right? Yes, yes, right, yeah. You know. 100%, yeah, yeah, right. A great example is, tell somebody that the reason you're not going to a meeting is because you don't have a ride. Right? And watch what happens, right? Watch what happens. It's crazy, man. It's crazy.
mike miller (29:31.871)
Yeah. Yeah, you got a cue.
Chuck LaFLange (29:36.648)
We're in Thailand. Somebody said that to me in Regina, maybe two months ago now, six weeks, eight weeks ago. And it was like 10 minutes later, you have a ride to every meeting you ever wanna go, man. Just like that, right? Two countries, three cities got involved, and in 10 minutes the guy had, because that's the nature of the people in those rooms, right?
mike miller (29:43.007)
Hahaha.
mike miller (29:54.623)
Yeah, yeah. Well, and let's actually say this, you're not actually in those rooms, but you know that the support in those rooms is there and you accessed it for him, even though you're not even in it, you're just connected to it. And it's still that powerful and that fast. That's the norm. Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (30:07.72)
Right? Right? So that is the reality of it when, you know, it's done, I don't want to say properly because it's not my words, but when it's done in the spirit that it's meant to be, I guess is the way to say that, right? Yes.
mike miller (30:19.711)
Well, but that's, yeah. Well, when you actually live by the principles of the program, including the steps and the traditions. And I think for me, like, there's so much good stuff in it when people are adhering to it, and, you know, to the best of their ability, but not like living in conflict with it, right? And I think like, that's what, that's why when you get some of the comments that you've seen,
Chuck LaFLange (30:38.184)
Of course, of course.
mike miller (30:49.151)
becomes so jarring because it's so outside the norm. It's like, you know, there's a mega church down in America, down in the United States. You know, the guy's got this huge, crazy church and he's got like mansions and jet planes and all that stuff. And there's a flood in the area and he locks the door of his church. And it's just like, whoa, like it's so antithetical to what you're supposed to be doing.
Chuck LaFLange (30:50.696)
Yes.
Chuck LaFLange (31:06.76)
you
Chuck LaFLange (31:16.424)
Yeah, right.
mike miller (31:17.567)
you're supposed to actually be the first door that's open. And I kind of equate it to that. It's like, if our whole thing is about the therapeutic value, there's the therapeutic value of one addict helping another is without parallel. And the addict who's supposed to be helping you is actually judging you, shaming you and ostracizing you. Like we have lost our way, regardless of whether or not I want to participate in those medicines or the.
Chuck LaFLange (31:19.624)
Yes.
Chuck LaFLange (31:38.504)
Yes.
mike miller (31:45.343)
harm reduction measure or that behavior or whatever it is doesn't matter. My job isn't to police other people's recovery actions. My job is to, you know, have a spiritual awakening, practice the principles in all my affairs, all my affairs, even with people who are doing things I don't fucking like, right? And carry the message. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps,
Chuck LaFLange (31:53.)
Nope.
Chuck LaFLange (32:04.744)
Yep, yep, yep. Yes, yes.
mike miller (32:13.599)
I practice these principles in all my affairs, so all my relationships. It doesn't say the easy ones are the ones that I fucking like. It says all my affairs and carry the message. And I would say saying that what you're doing isn't acceptable, shaming you for it, judging you for it, saying you're not clean, saying you're not sober, whatever the language is.
I would say I'm not practicing the principles in that affair in particular, and I'm definitely not carrying the message. I'm also breaking traditional leaven, which is that our public relations policy is attraction rather than promotion. And what I'm doing is I'm definitely not attracting people. I'm not luring you into the fold through like, this is how we live by this program. I'm probably, you know, we have evidence of it with this guy with this comment. He's like not coming back. And that's a shame because that might be the room that saves his life. And that's.
Chuck LaFLange (32:37.32)
you
Chuck LaFLange (32:57.096)
No, not at all, right?
mike miller (33:01.407)
So yeah, it's just jarring when you see it because it's so not what it's designed for or what the norm is. It's so outside the norm, right?
Chuck LaFLange (33:06.408)
Yes. And it's more important than ever, I do want to talk about my experience with 12 Steps because it directly correlates to this. However, I think before I say that, Mike, I want to... We are living in a time unparalleled as far as drug use goes. This has never happened in history, right? So what worked for you, what worked for anybody that's been sober for longer than a few years, what worked for anybody that has not had a serious opiate addiction?
mike miller (33:23.871)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (33:37.096)
It's not the same. Now is the time that you should be more willing to accept other paths to recovery because people are dying faster than ever. Nothing that in human history outside of war compares to the numbers and plague. Fucking plague happening out there, really. Most certainly an epidemic and bordering on plague right now. People are dying.
mike miller (33:46.463)
Hmm.
mike miller (33:58.559)
Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.
Chuck LaFLange (34:03.336)
I've been out of it for 16 months and I've had way more phone calls than 16 phone calls and messages about people we've lost. So, you know.
mike miller (34:09.311)
Yeah, yeah. Well, I know when I got clean, the amount of those phone calls that I would get are a lot less than the amount of phone calls I get now. Because just because of what's actually out there, whether it's fentanyl or carfentanil, you know, like these things are like so fucking powerful. I think that this actually illustrates a bigger thing, which is like, hey, I'm all for the big book. Like that big book was written in 1939.
Chuck LaFLange (34:15.048)
Yeah. Right? Right?
Chuck LaFLange (34:39.304)
Yes.
mike miller (34:41.887)
and it's done like countless like good deeds. Like, yeah, you can't toll, yeah, yeah, yeah. You literally can't even quantify the good that's come out of that book.
Chuck LaFLange (34:45.576)
Literally, literally, yeah. You start taking to effect spin -off and all that, oh my God. It just, yeah, yeah, it never ends. No, yeah.
mike miller (34:58.879)
But it's almost like blasphemy if you're to suggest that in the 85 intervening years, maybe we could update it. Yeah, I know I did it. I know. Well, any other field in the world, including like, this is a thing. People say this is a disease, right? Fair enough. Whatever. I'm not a doctor, so I'm not gonna, you know, I have my ideas about it, but whatever. Let's just say this is a disease. Well, 85 years ago,
Chuck LaFLange (35:04.328)
Mike, we've gone more than half an hour and now you fucking went and did it. Okay, right. I'm just kidding. I'm kidding.
Chuck LaFLange (35:17.96)
Yes.
Chuck LaFLange (35:24.296)
Yes.
mike miller (35:28.639)
they had an idea about how you treat the disease of cancer. In the intervening 85 years, they have done a lot of leaps forward in technology, research, you know, like there's like a lot, and the way that we treat cancer is different than we did 85 years ago because we have a much bigger source of data. We have a much bigger...
Chuck LaFLange (35:39.208)
Yes.
Chuck LaFLange (35:45.544)
Very.
mike miller (35:54.047)
source of research and knowledge and advances in technology and medicines and everything. If you went to someone with cancer and go, why aren't we treating it like we did 85 years ago? They'd be like, that is insane. We know more stuff now. But when it comes to addiction and you deal with some people, maybe those few vocal minority that can be a bit zealous in their defense of the 12 steps, why are we taking a book?
Chuck LaFLange (36:19.08)
Yeah.
mike miller (36:24.447)
written by a stockbroker in 1939, who had been sober for four years and only worked with 100 people and saying that's the fucking untouchable Bible and how dare you think about updating that because I'll tell you this, I've been clean five times, five times longer than that guy was clean. He was four years. I'm over 20. He worked with 100 people. I've worked with an average about 300 a year since I got clean. So we're talking about like 6000 people. And I'm not saying I'm
Chuck LaFLange (36:47.88)
Thanks thousand people. Yeah.
mike miller (36:53.663)
fucking Bill Wilson, I'm not saying that. But what I'm saying is like, the way I look at it when I treat people is I go, well, what's the latest research say? I'll take the stuff from the 12 steps, it's really good, that's solid, and I'm gonna keep that. But can I add stuff to it that's actually gonna be evidence -based? Like, because these medicines that... Okay.
Chuck LaFLange (37:00.648)
Yes, yes, right. So.
Which -
Chuck LaFLange (37:09.64)
Yes, yes, yes. So that feeds into something like that, part of these same comments, and I want to jump on that, that evidence -based research. One of the conversations I've had was actually with another influencer, our social media recovery content creator, I should say, I don't like the word influencer. Edit that out. Anyway, I'm not gonna. Right? Is.
mike miller (37:31.967)
Yeah, just be humble. Just go with it.
Chuck LaFLange (37:39.144)
This myth, and it is a myth, that Matt has led to more overdoses. Matt, people never get off Matt. People never, you know, methadone for life, suboxone for life. Listen, it takes a quick Google search of peer -reviewed studies on the effectiveness of Matt with SUD. And the amount of papers is overwhelming to a point where, in response to this other content creator,
mike miller (37:45.663)
Guys, yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (38:08.712)
I just went to ChatGBT and used this summarizer thing, it's a research thing, and said, can you just summarize what all of the papers say because it's just too fucking much to read. Yeah, right? And there's so much evidence that no, it's not forever. Your limited experience with people that it hasn't worked for is sure, in your mind, very valid, but in big picture, it's not, right?
mike miller (38:18.207)
What's the consensus? Yeah.
mike miller (38:33.247)
Well, well, and yeah, there's a couple of things. One is anecdotal evidence is not actually evidence, right? I mean, it's a true story, because you've experienced it, but that doesn't make it true across the board. And it's not, there's no double blinds. There's no like, sort of figuring out like any confounds like taking out skews, skews to the research like, like,
when there's a consensus, not of people doing research, but a consensus of the research itself. We've done this study and this study and this study and this study and this study and this study and a hundred fucking studies, and they all come up with the same thing. And they've had those confounds ruled out and they've had peer review. Like at that point, this isn't a matter of, cause this is the second thing, emotional reasoning, right?
Chuck LaFLange (39:16.968)
Yes.
Chuck LaFLange (39:27.848)
Yes.
mike miller (39:28.991)
People have feelings about these medications and they think their feelings are facts. And you know, like, don't bring your feelings to a fact fight. Like the point of it being like, just because you get some feelings about it or triggered by it, doesn't, and you feel it's bad, doesn't make it bad. Because the truth of the matter is, you know, and I'm from Vancouver and I remember when the supervised injection site, the first one, Insight got opened up.
Chuck LaFLange (39:45.512)
No, of course not.
Chuck LaFLange (39:52.04)
Mm -hmm.
mike miller (39:55.935)
and all these people in recovery and all these people out of recovery and all these politicians who love to stoke fear and anger and resentment were saying, this is encouraging people to come to the downtown East side and shoot drugs. And it's like, that is complete bullshit. There's no evidence that that ever happened. The evidence of what happened is people are shooting up anyway. Can we keep them alive to the point that they can access some services and then get into a more stable and recovery -based life? And...
There's never been an overdose there. Never. There's literally never been a lethal overdose.
Chuck LaFLange (40:26.344)
Yep, right and how many and by far the busiest such facility in the entire country by far I'm sure I mean I don't have any evidence to say that but I'm sure that it would be yeah
mike miller (40:34.719)
I know a guy, yeah, I know a guy who's clean for years now who was revived from overdoses there six times. Like if he's not there, he's dead, right? And so, and he's not alone in that. I'm sure they're like, you know, again, this is anecdotal, but the evidence, the actual research papers show that this isn't encouraging people to go and shoot up. Like this is a place where people,
Chuck LaFLange (40:42.792)
Wow. All right. Yeah. Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (40:56.168)
No.
mike miller (41:02.655)
that were already shooting up could do it in a safe way so that they could stabilize and then they have access to resources. Cause some of them, that's the very first place they actually have someone there that's like, Hey man, do you need some help? Because yes, where you're not getting that in the back alley, right? So that stuff doesn't get, yeah, yeah. A million reasons. Yeah. So like, I think that I might have feelings about someone shooting up, whether I'm a person in recovery or a normal.
Chuck LaFLange (41:12.648)
Right? Yeah, right. And the rigs, their dirty needles aren't being left. There's a million reasons that that's just, yeah, right, that that's so much better.
mike miller (41:30.815)
member of the community or whatever, and that's fine. But the truth of the matter is there's evidence about this thing and the MAT and all that. Like, they work. They keep people alive long enough to get into recovery, including stable abstinence -based recovery, which they wouldn't have a chance to do if they weren't using those medications. Now, here's the other thing I would just say.
Why the fuck do I care if someone's on methadone for the rest of their life? Like, how is that my business? How does it affect me? Why do I get on some moral high horse and judge it? Like, do I want to be on methadone for the rest of my life? No, absolutely not. I don't want to be. And you know, like, and I am a recovering heroin addict, right? So if that's what we're, the language we'll use, heroin was my deal. And I'm grateful that I didn't get on methadone. And I don't particularly enjoy thinking of the times that I kicked and there was many.
Chuck LaFLange (41:59.656)
Right. Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (42:15.88)
you
you
mike miller (42:24.895)
I don't particularly enjoy thinking about the last time I went to treatment where I kicked cold turkey and was lying to them and saying I was clean for a week and had to get up in the morning and do chores and go to group and do all that like while like really sick. But I'll tell you, I never want to do it again. All of that being said, if someone else can do it a different way, what life why do I care about that? Like, like how is like, I don't understand that. Yeah, to me in my life. Like,
Chuck LaFLange (42:30.504)
Fuck. Fuck.
Chuck LaFLange (42:38.12)
you
Chuck LaFLange (42:46.696)
Why? Why does it matter? Why does it matter? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
mike miller (42:52.959)
I acquainted a lot of times to people getting physically fit, right? So say you and me are both like fitness guys, which I mean, as evidenced by this, it's not really true, but let's just say, right? And you're like, well, what I am is like, I'm a power lifter, right? And I go, I'm a CrossFit guy. Like, do I sit around disparaging power lifting or do I just go to CrossFit and do my thing and get healthy? And why would I care about how you choose to get healthy?
Chuck LaFLange (42:58.248)
Yeah
Chuck LaFLange (43:21.8)
Exactly.
mike miller (43:22.527)
It doesn't happen in those worlds. It happens particularly in the recovery world because as much as we say it's a disease model, so many people still buy into the moral model where they judge people for using anything, including drugs that aren't even getting them high.
Chuck LaFLange (43:33.288)
Right, right, it's, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
mike miller (43:42.719)
which is like, so do we buy into the disease model or do we not? Like the moral model is what stopped people from getting well forever. And even us in recovery, if we're wielding the moral model at other people trying to get clean in this day and age where like literally one use will kill people, like I think we're missing the boat on that. And so, yeah, I feel passionately about this stuff because I believe that there are so many good people in so many good aspects of the 12 step program.
that I hate to hear people turning away from it and saying, I can't access help there because I get judged. And that is heartbreaking to me, because I wouldn't be here today without it. And it's like, if someone did that to me, I'll also tell you this, based on my trauma history, all it would have taken was me walking into a room and having someone judge me and shame me. And I would have ran away as fast as I could and never been able to show my face there again. And I wouldn't be clean today, 100%.
Chuck LaFLange (44:18.952)
Right. 100%.
Chuck LaFLange (44:40.072)
Perfect. You've done it twice in this episode. You just said a nice segue into my next point outside of your awareness. So my experience is I've started to say a couple of times here. When I relapsed after 34 days, the first 30 days ever that I ever had as an adult sober, right? It was. When I relapsed, when I, yeah, yeah. When I relapsed and my group, my home group was amazing and open and caring.
mike miller (44:58.975)
Cute.
That's huge, monumental.
Chuck LaFLange (45:09.8)
and all of the things that you would not just expect but want it to be, right? Absolutely amazing. I can still say, Megan, who's not an anonymous person, I can say her first name most certainly, she came to a meeting when I was at Detox, she chaired a meeting there, I connected with her story, and the day I got out, it was like, I'm there, right? She was just the most amazing human being.
mike miller (45:12.383)
Yeah, and hope for it to be.
mike miller (45:24.703)
So.
mike miller (45:34.847)
Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (45:38.76)
When I had to go back to zero, the idea of going back to zero is what kept me in relapse. And I say that to say, that's how easy it is to scare somebody out of the rooms. Everybody else around me is taking pride in their clean time. And I would never tell somebody don't take pride in their clean time. I would say, maybe you just be a little more aware of, I don't know how to wrestle with that one. And maybe you have some thoughts on it. Because it's a big deal. It's a big deal.
mike miller (45:59.775)
Oh yeah.
mike miller (46:05.535)
It's, well I do. Well, it's, it's a double edged sword. Yeah. Well, it's, it's a double edged sword, right? In that counting those days and those milestones sometimes are the things getting those key tags or those chips or whatever. Like I remember how important it was to be like, I'm going to get a 30 day key tag tonight. Like I remember that feeling. I also remember relapsing. Um,
Chuck LaFLange (46:08.456)
But at the same time, it's why I didn't go back. Right? You know? So, you know. Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (46:28.392)
Yes. Yes.
mike miller (46:34.303)
and being too ashamed to come in and say, I'm coming back. Because I was already shame bound in myself. And I didn't want to be judged. I didn't want to be abandoned because that's my history. My history was judgment and abandonment. And that's just part of trauma histories, I think. And so I think it's good to take pride in it.
Chuck LaFLange (46:37.16)
you
as are so many, so many, right?
mike miller (47:03.135)
But this is one of the things too that I think, and this is one of the limitations of the 12 steps. And as much as the 12 steps is fucking awesome, what's it gonna do about that, like fear and shame of judgment and fear of abandonment? Like, my sponsor might be an amazing guy and might be really good at his day job, but like, he's not gonna help me resolve why I feel that shame. Why you felt the shame too much to be able to go back and be like, I had to lose my clean time so I can't come back here.
Because there's underlying stuff there, right? And so I don't know that in 34 days of clean time, any community led mutual self help group is going to address that. So I'm not sort of blaming that on the program, but I'm saying like, there needs to be other stuff that people access to address the like, well, why was I so shame bound in that? And maybe that's post relapse and maybe, you know, my hope is.
Chuck LaFLange (47:35.336)
Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (47:48.36)
Of course.
mike miller (48:00.095)
I always heard like there's no shame in coming back, like there's shame in not coming back. You know, I remember relapsing and then coming back and relapsing. Like literally when I went into treatment, I put all my stuff in storage that my mom had to pay for, because I couldn't even afford the storage fees. And when I went from treatment to that storage locker to get some stuff out of it, I opened this dresser drawer and it was full of white, green and orange key tags, like.
Brand new 30 days and 60 days like I could have started a newcomer meeting There was so much stuff because I did like, you know when I was ashamed I wouldn't say I was coming back most of the time But then I would go and I'd get a 30 days when I got that again in the 60 days and then I'd relapse and go through that sort of cycle I remember going to my home group one time in the West End of Vancouver and this woman I can't I remember the conversation, but I don't know who she was and I actually regret that She said you don't know how much NA misses you when you're not here. I
Chuck LaFLange (48:32.68)
Yeah.
mike miller (48:56.543)
And I was like, whoa, like nobody in my life tells me they miss me when I'm not here. They're actually usually quite glad to see me going in the other direction, right? Is what it feels like anyway. So like, yeah, I don't know where I kind of went off on like a little tangent there, but it's like, I don't know. It's so important that acceptance and that like just being accepted for who you are and where you are, et cetera.
Chuck LaFLange (49:03.912)
Yeah.
mike miller (49:23.519)
For me, like what kept me from being able to say I was coming back was my own shame. And yeah, maybe it's not the job of that program to take care of that. Maybe it's the job of that program to help me stay clean, get connected to a group of people that can support me and do that. And then it's my job to seek outside help for specific issues that come up that can't be addressed by that program or for whatever reason aren't addressed in my experience of it. Like some people, maybe they resolve their shame in 12 step programs.
Chuck LaFLange (49:31.08)
you
Yes.
mike miller (49:51.807)
Amazing. Good for them. That wasn't my experience. And you know, we all have different experiences based on the complexities of our cases and everything. But yeah, I think it makes me sad to think that like that all or nothing kind of thing, right? Like, like if I get, if I get loaded tonight and I go back to a meeting tomorrow, am I at day one?
Chuck LaFLange (49:58.792)
Of course, of course.
Chuck LaFLange (50:05.384)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (50:14.824)
technically and it's this is actually where a lot of that argument started with that other content creator was this that conversation right there am I at day one and he was Quite upset that somebody would indicate anything less than day one or anything other than day one again. It's like but No, I've started to change my language quite a bit And and I just say the day I embraced recovery
mike miller (50:23.871)
Yeah. Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (50:40.68)
Right? Because, and for me, yes, that is the day that I became abstinent and it's been, whatever, 16 months and whatever days now, right? But, I just, because what if that person has that one day, I just, I figure I'm not gonna contribute to that. There's a toxic ego that can happen with, you know, well I've been clean for this long so I know better. And I, you know, that fucking chest pounding, crap, condescending, oh, and that I've seen much more often than -
mike miller (50:44.735)
Yeah. Yeah.
mike miller (51:01.311)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's funny.
Chuck LaFLange (51:09.608)
somebody who's who's zealous.
mike miller (51:13.151)
Yeah, well, and we've talked about it before, like usually the ego is directly inverse to self -esteem, right? So it's like the ego is protecting me from some deficit that I see in myself or something that's too painful. So I kind of puff myself up because it's like, feels better, right? But I know two different people that both have significant time in recovery and both of them.
Chuck LaFLange (51:13.672)
stepping but you know.
Chuck LaFLange (51:22.504)
Yes.
Chuck LaFLange (51:30.632)
Yeah.
mike miller (51:39.711)
And these are people that don't know each other. They've probably never met. I did ask one of them to come speak at the convention that I was like the chairperson for. She came and spoke about trauma. And that was like, people were like, oh, trauma at like an NA convention. And I'll tell you, standing room only. Like people were like eating it up. It was amazing. And her story was amazing. But both of these two people that have significant clean time each.
both do this thing where they go, there was that one night in the middle. Like I had a bunch of years clean, I used like once or one night, and then I got all these years clean again. And it's like, they feel like they have to mention that night. Even though they wanna be like, you know, the whole total of it is the important thing, but they feel like they're being dishonest. If they, like, you know, let's say for example, I'll just make up numbers.
Chuck LaFLange (52:22.632)
Yes.
mike miller (52:37.567)
One of them is, you know, it was clean for 10 years, used one day and then got clean for 20 years after that. They want to say they're clean for 30 years, right? But they feel this need to be like, well, I was clean for 10 years and I used one night and then 20 years. And you can see the struggle in them where like one of them in particular, because like, it's the clean time is important to them, right? It's changed their lives, but they feel.
Chuck LaFLange (52:45.224)
Yes. Yes.
Chuck LaFLange (52:51.496)
you
Yes.
mike miller (53:04.063)
they would feel shamed if they weren't mentioning that one thing, but they feel shamed when they actually mention it because they feel like it took away, like it broke up the continual, but I would look at it like this. That one night, you didn't lose everything you lost in those 10 years. And actually what happened was because of all the stuff you had in that preceding 10 years, you got right back into it the next day. And so it actually did its job for you. And then you've put 20 years after, like it's hard, it's hard.
Chuck LaFLange (53:09.416)
Yeah, right. So Mike, is there anywhere, you know your shit when it comes to the 12 steps, we've established that now. Is there anywhere in the steps, the traditions, in the book, anywhere that says that you'd go back to zero?
mike miller (53:32.863)
Well, I know some of it.
Chuck LaFLange (53:41.8)
If anything, yeah, we'd be getting further away from that than anything, right? Yeah, yeah.
mike miller (53:42.687)
No, because it doesn't actually like, we celebrate clean time. Um, but it doesn't actually, I don't think it says that anywhere. I mean, now to be honest, like there's actually been new literature published that I haven't studied to the same degree. So, but I doubt that it would say that. Like, I'll just say, I've yeah. Yeah. Um, but I think that, um, sometimes there's that like,
And it's really sad to say that this would exist in a recovery community, but I think there's some people that have that like schadenfreude, right? Where it's like, I like to see other people fail because I can feel more sort of elevated from it, right? And it would make me sad to think there are people like that. And I don't know that there are, but there might be that element of it. But the truth of the matter is like when we put everything on the days that we have, like what we're missing is like, what did I learn in those days? And because I'll tell you right now.
Chuck LaFLange (54:10.024)
Without a doubt, without a doubt, right? Yeah. Mm -hmm.
mike miller (54:36.927)
maybe the content creator person would say, if I use tonight, tomorrow I'm at day one. It's like, well, maybe I'm at day one as far as like counting consecutive days, but you're not going to undo everything I learned and all the therapy I did and everything in the last 20 years. Like I don't lose all that. And I remember like for years, I've been having this conversation with clients that have relapsed. I'm like, you didn't lose everything. You might've lost that day count. If that's the most important thing for you, I guess we just need to build up another big day count. But that's not the most important thing to me.
Chuck LaFLange (54:43.048)
you
Chuck LaFLange (54:48.424)
Most certainly not, right.
you
mike miller (55:06.271)
The most important thing to me, like if you look up recovery in the dictionary, there's a recovered, there's like a lot of different definitions of it. The one that sort of applies to medical stuff that I've seen says to return to a previously known state of health. It doesn't say counting days. Um, it doesn't say attending meetings. It says like return to a previously known state of health. Now to me in the time that people get clean, if they're living by a program and doing what they need to do,
Chuck LaFLange (55:12.392)
Yes. Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (55:33.256)
No, of course not.
mike miller (55:35.839)
Um, you know, to, to get healthy and be as healthy as they can, to some degree, whatever that looks like, like that's the stuff that you don't just all of a sudden lose it. Like you might, you might veer away from it for a bit. Um, you might have a relapse, but you know, for me, when I, when I was in treatment the last time I was the new guy in the group and I might've told this on one of the weekend rambles, there was, um, 24 guys in the room.
Chuck LaFLange (56:02.248)
Isn't everybody in the middle of a circle if you're in a circle?
mike miller (56:05.087)
And I was at one far end, midway of the group, like we were in a big circle. At the front was the director and a support worker. And...
But I was directly in the middle from them where it started. Because the director said to the person on his right,
Chuck LaFLange (56:16.968)
Okay, I'm just kidding. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah I'm just being an asshole Mike
mike miller (56:25.631)
I'm trying to ignore that.
mike miller (56:30.431)
So he turns to the guy on his right and says, tell me something you're grateful for. And it goes around all the way around, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. And everyone's like, my kids, my family, my this, my that, my job, my blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it got to me, I'm four days clean, newest guy there, still in withdrawal and pretending I'm not, because I lied to them and said I'm sick. And yeah, it sucked. Yeah. And it was June and it was fucking hot. And yeah, sharing a room with.
Chuck LaFLange (56:36.552)
Yep.
Chuck LaFLange (56:48.52)
Just that must have been hell man. Oh my god. Okay continue though. Yeah
What?
mike miller (56:59.967)
two other guys, I'm on a bunk bed, like it was not good. Yeah, it was terrible. In group on folding metal chairs in a converted garage, no aircon, no fan, no nothing. But it was good because it sucked enough, I don't wanna do it again. But it gets to me and they say, oh, what are you grateful for? Like new guy, what are you grateful for, right? And I'm like, yeah, I'm grateful for my last relapse. And you can just hear this like, ooh! But like I wasn't.
Chuck LaFLange (57:01.352)
That's just the worst taste.
Chuck LaFLange (57:15.688)
Yeah.
mike miller (57:29.055)
grateful for the using because I was clean for 11 and a half months and I wasn't doing all the stuff I needed to do to change. I was like just fucking white knuckling it and holding on for dear life. One little crisis happened that wasn't even that big of a crisis. The next thing you know, I'm using and what it showed me and it actually says this in the NA book. Sometimes a relapse, I'm going to paraphrase, I'll get it wrong. Sometimes a relapse is something, says something like the event that brings about more
serious application of the steps or something like that or a more, like basically it says like, you learned what you weren't doing and you need to do more, right? And that's what I learned. I was like, oh, I can't half -ass my way through this. Now I'm in treatment and I'm here to do what I have to do. And everyone was horrified. Like this guy doesn't get it, right? And it goes around all the other guys and it gets back to the front, to the support worker who's next to the director. And he goes, oh, like the new guy.
Chuck LaFLange (58:02.088)
Okay.
Chuck LaFLange (58:06.824)
Yeah. Yeah.
mike miller (58:27.103)
I'm grateful for my last relapse because without my last relapse, I wouldn't have the year and a half clean that I have now. And then all of a sudden, all of a sudden people like, oh yeah, like that was valid because it came from the guy who knows what he's talking about. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (58:32.424)
Yes.
Chuck LaFLange (58:36.712)
Which speaks to the whole yeah what you're saying is not valid if you if you don't have the meantime the fact and I what I'm zoned in on there and I so much what you just said Mike but one of the things that kind of sucked out was They actually labeled you the new guy referred to you as the new guy. Oh Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah, okay
mike miller (58:52.415)
No, no, that's me. I'm doing it in my head. But that was the sort of attitude, like the guy with four days clean who's in withdrawal doesn't know shit. And you know what, to be honest, I didn't know a lot about recovery, because I've never really done much of it. You know what I mean? I'd been abstinent, but I hadn't done enough to change what I wanted to do to sort of stay clean and to return to health, right? I was still keeping secrets and doing all the bullshit. I didn't amend anything.
Chuck LaFLange (58:57.64)
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
mike miller (59:21.663)
to be honest, I just stopped using. So basically we took away my medicine, but left me with my pain. And then I had to like eventually return to the medicine, right? Because if we ask a lot of family members, like if you're using and I asked your mom, like what's Chris's problem? She's gonna be like, the drugs. What's Chuck's problem? The drugs. And I ask you, Chuck, what are the drugs? And you're gonna be like, they're my solution to like live, you know, like that was my medicine for the pain.
Chuck LaFLange (59:40.648)
Yeah
Chuck LaFLange (59:44.584)
Yeah, right. Yeah.
mike miller (59:48.799)
And when we took away the medicine and I didn't replace it with anything, then I was just left with the pain and it was a matter of time until I was going to use again. So I didn't really know a lot about recovery, but in that moment, what I knew is that I needed to learn a lot about recovery. And when I was there, people would say like, oh, where do you live? And I'd be like, here. And they'd be like, where? Like in Vancouver? And I'm like, no, no, no, here. Like this is where I live. I don't live anywhere else. This is, and I stayed for six months. And I remember,
the director saying to me like, you may as well put you to work, you're not going anywhere. You know what I mean? Like clearly you're not leaving. So we may as well like put you to work. And so I, yeah. Well, we got work permit issues that are a bit different. And oh, sorry, we have this other thing that's called ethics. Yeah, dual relationships and all that. But you know, like, I think that I knew that I didn't know enough. And I knew,
Chuck LaFLange (01:00:21.64)
Maybe I should have stayed at Yatra for a little while longer. Ethics, ethics, yes, yes.
Chuck LaFLange (01:00:43.624)
Yeah.
mike miller (01:00:47.167)
that I needed, I think it says to bring about a more rigorous application of the steps is what it says. And I knew that that's what I needed to do, even though I didn't know that sort of quote. I was like, okay, I can't half -ass it, I have to do something different. And that, you know, was it good that I had almost a year clean? Sure, I did minimal damage to people in that time. I wasn't a drag on a lot of social systems in that time. But,
Chuck LaFLange (01:00:55.816)
you
Chuck LaFLange (01:01:07.464)
Yeah.
mike miller (01:01:16.415)
You know, it also didn't do everything I wanted to. It did show me, oh, I can do this. I've done it before without even putting in a lot of the effort I was supposed to put in. I got almost a year clean. What's going to happen if I actually do what they say to do? And at that point, I remember like in that same group room, 24 guys there and they brought out the stats and it's really funny. Like,
Chuck LaFLange (01:01:32.232)
Yes.
mike miller (01:01:41.535)
Treatment centers will always tell you the stats and I don't know where the fuck they get these stats because I haven't seen peer -reviewed stats of this stuff, but they said Of you guys in this room a year from now two of you are gonna be clean two of you are gonna be dead and the rest are gonna be in and out in and out or just out using and I remember saying to myself in my head now you're all fucked because only one of you is making it because I'm fucking making it
Chuck LaFLange (01:01:42.728)
Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (01:01:57.192)
you
Chuck LaFLange (01:02:06.376)
Yeah, right.
mike miller (01:02:08.959)
And I was like, I don't know how to stay clean, show me how to stay clean and I'm gonna do it. Cause I was like at the point where I was like just desperate. At the one year mark, six of us were clean and celebrated it together. And 20 years later, there are still two of us clean from there. And so I'll tell you at a year clean, two of them were dead. So that sort of played out and a lot of them were in and out and.
Chuck LaFLange (01:02:18.888)
Ah, right, so.
Chuck LaFLange (01:02:26.152)
Wow. Wow.
Chuck LaFLange (01:02:32.552)
Yeah. Yeah.
mike miller (01:02:36.927)
But you can destroy those stats, whatever they say the stats are. If you want to stay clean, you can stay clean. And the 12 steps is a great way to do it. But it's not going to be very useful if you go there and feel like you're not accepted.
Chuck LaFLange (01:02:48.2)
No, most certainly, right. And that's a great way to kind of bring about this whole conversation, Mike. I mean, I've been more than open about, I'm not a 12 -stepper, I've never worked the steps. But I'll say, by extension, no, all right. Of course I can, right? And I know that, and I take no issue with it. By extension, though.
mike miller (01:03:00.959)
I can say clean.
I'm joking, you're going to.
You can do it any way you want, man. It's cool.
Chuck LaFLange (01:03:16.776)
The amount of people in my life that are 12 -steppers, the amount of people I've had on the show that are 12 -steppers, so many of those principles have been applied to my life. So many of them, right? I can't tell you how many times in a normal week that I'll say, is this who you want to be? Right? Don't do that, do this instead, right? You know, and fair enough, right? You know, yeah.
mike miller (01:03:27.647)
Yeah, well, I mean, this is what it is, right?
mike miller (01:03:36.927)
Yeah. Well, so you're doing a step 10. So you're doing a step 10. You're doing a continuing inventory. Like, I remember one of my colleagues, this the support worker who actually said like, oh, like the new guy, I'm grateful. He said to me, when he saw the 12 steps, excuse me, he was like, so sort of like, whoa, that he took them to his grandmother and went, grandma, look at this. And she looked at it went,
Chuck LaFLange (01:03:50.44)
Yeah.
mike miller (01:04:06.463)
Yeah, that's how you're supposed to live. Like what, like it wasn't this big mystery to her. Like, you know, be a good person. If you do something wrong, try to write it. You know, like it wasn't like a big, it's, but it's the principles. There's principles in all those steps.
Chuck LaFLange (01:04:10.504)
Yeah, yeah, right.
Chuck LaFLange (01:04:15.336)
Yeah, yeah. You know, that's funny.
When we very first met, Mike, I think there was some schedule conflict or something. I don't remember what it was. I don't. But, and of course met, I mean virtually, because that's how I was still on count at the time. Something had come up and you were so off put at the idea that you weren't going to be able to make the commitment to whatever that time or date was. And I remember, and I still, it's that in particular runs through my mind quite a bit. As I...
mike miller (01:04:43.263)
Mm.
Chuck LaFLange (01:04:49.608)
do what I say, say what I do, those things. And you kind of set a bar for me at that time. Because of course, when we first met, what was I, like four months in or something like that, maybe? Give or take, right? Yeah, maybe five. Yeah, yeah, right? So that was fucking, whew, that was a hot mess back then. But, and when I think back to it, at the time I didn't realize it.
mike miller (01:05:04.319)
Yeah, around, probably, yeah, has it been a year?
mike miller (01:05:16.223)
That's not kind language. That's not kind language. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was quite chaotic and stressful. It was stressful. You had a stressful existence then, for sure.
Chuck LaFLange (01:05:18.952)
No, but I don't even mean it in a derogatory way. I just was, right? I had so much going on, right? Yeah, right? I really did, right? But you set that bar, and it's a good example of kind of the spin -off effect that happens with a program, like with 12 Step, right? And literally every time, I'm not going to make something or I'm not going to do what I said, whether it's...
mike miller (01:05:39.679)
Well, so.
Chuck LaFLange (01:05:48.36)
I told somebody I was gonna update the website or there's I was gonna do a pocket whatever it drives me bananas If I don't if I don't acknowledge that and make that right and because of what you said that
mike miller (01:05:54.687)
Yeah.
So here's, so this is the thing to kind of piggyback on that. So being a 12 -step member for a long time, including when I was in that place getting clean, when I was doing the steps, I had to do, you know, step two, right? Come to believe in a power greater than yourself. And I was like, well, there's all kinds of powers greater than me. Like that's not like nature, the police, the government, like, you know.
Chuck LaFLange (01:06:17.704)
Yeah.
Yeah.
mike miller (01:06:25.535)
a gang, like there's tons of powers greater than me. Like that one wasn't that hard for me. You know?
Chuck LaFLange (01:06:27.08)
Yeah, yeah. Literally any pretty woman on the planet. Okay. Yeah, anyway.
mike miller (01:06:33.183)
Sorry. No, no, I don't know what you're talking about. But you know, like, to me, like, I actually went with kind of like a scientific thing. It was like, could I lift that sofa? No. Could me and you and two other guys in recovery lift it? Yes. Oh, therefore the fellowship is a fellow power greater than me. Like, there's just evidence of that, right? So that's kind of how I did that. Step three talked about, you know,
made the decision to turn my will and my life over to the care of God as I understood him. Well, I didn't understand him. I watched other people in that house being like, oh yeah, God, my higher power. And I was like, you're halfway home. And I struggle with it. I didn't grow up in a religious household. I didn't believe in it. I didn't want to believe in it. But I was so desperate that I was like, I'll try, I'll do the prayer and all that kind of stuff.
Chuck LaFLange (01:07:05.992)
Yep.
mike miller (01:07:27.647)
But I felt really fake when I was doing it, because I was like, I'm praying to something I don't believe in. It feels really disingenuous. So one night I like didn't pray and the sky didn't fall in. And I was like, okay, so like I'm still clean. Nothing really bad happened because I didn't pray. And over the years, at this point, I'm like a few years clean and not, I didn't pray for the few years. I stopped that in the house, but a few years clean, I was like, how am I staying clean in this 12 step framework?
if I don't believe in God, because, you know, sorry to rock everyone's world, like I just don't. And that's okay that you do, you're like ahead of me in that, and that's okay. But I had to figure out how is this working for me when God is like listed in like five or six of those steps, right? And I looked at it and I was like, well, I live by a set of values to the best of my ability, like,
Chuck LaFLange (01:07:59.688)
Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (01:08:07.72)
Yep.
Chuck LaFLange (01:08:20.232)
Hmm hmm.
mike miller (01:08:25.439)
be honest, be responsible, be accountable, have compassion, have some integrity, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And when I do that, when I live in line with those values, I get connected to other people, because they like being around people that are honest and compassionate, as opposed to like dishonest and manipulative and all that stuff, right? Mean and violent.
Chuck LaFLange (01:08:26.44)
you
Chuck LaFLange (01:08:44.52)
Yeah, that's of course. Yeah. Yeah.
mike miller (01:08:51.967)
I so I get connected to other people. I earn trust. I earn respect, not just from other people, but from myself. I build self -esteem through doing these esteemable acts of doing the best that I can. And then I feel good, content, happy, a sense of relief. I'm not like having to clean up lies and all that shit. And then I don't need to change the way I feel because I feel okay. When I live in conflict with my values, if I have a value of honesty and I lie, I feel fear that I'm going to get caught, remorse, regret.
Chuck LaFLange (01:08:55.528)
you
mike miller (01:09:21.151)
guilt, shame, I lose trust, I lose respect, I lose self -esteem. If I sit in that long enough, I'm gonna fucking use. To me, it became a mathematical equation. What are my values? Put my behaviors in line with my values and I will stay clean and recover and be the best person I can be. Now, part of the responsibility and accountability of that, of putting those values into practice is that I need to take care of myself by doing some therapy, et cetera, et cetera. Like be...
responsible for my own wellbeing. And I figured out that the way that I'm staying clean in the 12 step framework, because if you looked at like someone who believes in God and you said, honesty, integrity, compassion, kindness, responsibility, accountability, humility, like are those, do those, yeah, like does, yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (01:10:08.04)
Even the serenity prayer, it's all like, yeah, yeah, I want the fucking serenity and the wisdom, right?
mike miller (01:10:15.071)
But does that fit for you? Like if you're a religious person, do those values fit for you? And people go, yeah. And I go, okay, those are my spiritual principles. And step 12 says we practice these principles in all our affairs, which means my affairs are my relationships. So if I practice all of those principles in my relationships, guess what? I get connected to people, which scientifically repairs the telomeres that are holding my chromosomes.
Chuck LaFLange (01:10:23.432)
Yep. Yep.
mike miller (01:10:45.119)
like stopping it's it literally physically stops the aging process of stress. I get connected to people, oxytocin, dopamine, all this stuff. I have support. I get trust. I get respect. I feel good about myself. Like, you know, there's just like, that's the whole thing. That's recovery to me. I'm returned to a state of health. You know, then do I do that perfectly? Absolutely not. I just don't do it perfectly. So step 10 is going, did you live by those?
Chuck LaFLange (01:10:58.056)
Yeah, so many, so many, yeah, yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (01:11:06.696)
.
mike miller (01:11:14.367)
values and I go, nah, I kind of like didn't show up for Chris on time. So then what I did, so I got away from those values and I got into like living in conflict with them. Then my job in step 10 is get back in line with those values, which is be accountable and responsible and go, Hey man, you know what? Like that's not okay. I should be there. I apologize. How can I make it right? Blah, blah, blah. I'm making amends at in the moment so that you don't go onto a step eight and you know, rah, rah, rah. Like how I live by a 12 step program.
Chuck LaFLange (01:11:26.28)
Yes. Yep. Yep. Yep.
mike miller (01:11:43.007)
is figure out what my values are, what behaviors are aligned with those values, and doing the best I can at that. And that fits in a 12 -step program without me believing in God. And I think that's... So when I say to you, you can get well any way you want. Like you're living by a 12 -step framework, or at least in line with the principles of a 12 -step, without the... You're like, I don't live... I never wrote the steps. Like, well, it doesn't say write them, it says live by them. Like the very first place, yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (01:12:02.728)
Yes. Yeah, right, right. I never worked them is what I say, right? But yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
mike miller (01:12:11.743)
Yeah, well the very first way, well I disagree with that. I think that you have, you haven't written them, but the very first time the 12 Steps shows up was in the AA big book in 1939. And actually there's step one, step two, step three, and in step four, it says, now is the time we put pen to paper. It doesn't say you write out an exhaustive step one, you write out an exhaustive step, like it doesn't say that. And then it says in step eight, now we made a list. So there's literally two steps, like, you know.
Chuck LaFLange (01:12:37.224)
Yeah.
mike miller (01:12:40.831)
maybe you're like looking at your defects and substance, but you know, like the reason that we write them out is try to make it simpler to understand and all that. But I think we kind of over egg the pudding sometimes, which means like we make it a bit too complicated. I think it's this, if you live by those values, you're, you're working the steps. You're literally working the steps. Sorry, that's my rant. That's bullshit too. You do have intent. You didn't work them.
Chuck LaFLange (01:12:52.776)
Yeah, fair enough, fair enough, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So maybe, okay, I'll change the language. I never work them with intent. I never work them with intent. Maybe I'll put it that way, all right? Yeah. Yeah.
I didn't work the spec, the steps specifically with intent. That's all. You know what I mean? Like I didn't go through the process. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
mike miller (01:13:12.255)
Well, you didn't sit down with step one, step two, but the thing is like, you definitely admitted that you're powerless and your life had become unmanageable.
Chuck LaFLange (01:13:20.904)
Yeah, I did.
mike miller (01:13:23.007)
Well, that's step one, right? You came to believe that a power greater than you could restore you to sanity. When you're in your addiction, your decision making is kind of insane, right? It's not logical. You act against your own best interest and all that. And then you came to believe that someone could help you to get out of that. Whether that was 12 step people reaching out to family, coming to treatment, like whatever. You believe that something could help you. That's step two. Step three, you made a decision, turn your will in life, or your, yeah, will in your life over to the care. So.
Chuck LaFLange (01:13:32.104)
Yeah. Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (01:13:39.784)
All right.
Chuck LaFLange (01:13:44.584)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
mike miller (01:13:52.959)
I don't know how you do that. That's your own personal sort of journey. But you know, I can sit here and go like, you know, you're living a step 10 every day. Like you're living it, you're working it, right? And it is intentional. It's just not laid out in that framework, but it's you're doing the exact same thing someone does who does it in that framework. Yeah. Yeah, well, you're welcome. You're a 12 stepper.
Chuck LaFLange (01:13:55.4)
Yep. Yep, yep, yep. Yes, yeah. Yeah, fair enough, right? Fair enough. Thank you.
for them. Listen Mike, I wouldn't say, I wouldn't you know take any shame in that. Listen, while we're here, I mean we talk about Yachter quite a bit as you've been title sponsor for many episodes as of late, but if people want to know more about you, what are they going to do? How are they going to reach you?
mike miller (01:14:19.807)
Well, you shouldn't. It's an important thing.
mike miller (01:14:32.863)
YatraCenter .com. And of course I do sometimes regret that I spent it, spelt it with the English spelling of center. C -E -N -T -R -E. I just have to like, I just have to explain it to everyone, especially everyone from North America. C -E -N -T -R -E .com. But if you look up Yatra Center, even the other way in Thailand, whatever you'll find us. Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (01:14:39.752)
Ari, I regret that you did too. I regret that you did too. It's gonna bring you around. Yeah, of course it is. Of course it is, yeah. I know it's such a cumbersome thing to have to say at the end of every single titles month. Yeah.
mike miller (01:15:02.207)
And you know, I know, I know. Oh yeah. Well, and you only say it for title sponsorship. I say it every day. Yeah. I look back and I go, what the fuck was I thinking? But yeah, terminally unique, right? No, but I think part of it is like, I've spent the last 10 plus years working with a lot of people from around the world, including a really big contingent of people from the UK and Australia. And I think it's just the English spelling of it, right?
Chuck LaFLange (01:15:09.928)
Yeah.
mike miller (01:15:32.031)
But anyway, so you go to yattracenter .com. You can email us hello at yattracenter .com. We've got on the website, there's like different resources. There's probably some videos and stuff on there. Sorry, I don't really go to my own website very often, but you can definitely contact us through that. And of course, you know, make sure you listen to Ash's to awesome.
Chuck LaFLange (01:15:42.024)
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, right. So, and to make that really easy, guys, on the website, atapodcast .com, slash trauma, it brings you to Mike, all his episodes, his links, it's all there, right, to get in touch. So that's a pretty easy way to do it as well, right? And I think this is...
mike miller (01:16:02.111)
Yeah.
mike miller (01:16:09.503)
Yeah, if after this episode you would want to do that.
Chuck LaFLange (01:16:11.496)
Well, I can tell you, right? Listen, you know, we've gone into the hour and a quarter mark already, so why don't we get into the final segment of the show, which is, of course, my favorite part of the show, and that is the Daily Gratitudes. So what you got for us today, Mike? Yes.
mike miller (01:16:19.103)
Yeah. Oh, man. I'm such a broken record with this stuff because my world is quite small and I'm like in a transitional sort of time. But as as always, I am well, I'll say this, you know what today, I'm grateful for 12 step recovery. I'm
grateful for everything I got from every person along the way that supported me in the meetings who didn't judge me, even when I relapsed lots of times, who, you know, applied tradition three and just let me keep coming back and encouraged me to keep coming back. You know, and then it was funny, someone actually said to me, like, you're coming back anyway, so you may as well come back clean. And I was like, oh, fuck, that makes sense. And.
But you know, I'm grateful for all those people. I'm grateful for the first like really heavy 12 step involvement that I had in the first five years of my recovery. And then the involvement that's gone on in the intervening 15 years since then, which is tapered off a bit, but I still will always identify as that. For the friends and relationships that I made in those rooms and then moved outside of those rooms and into my life, which like I say, is probably 85 % of my friend network are people that are top notch.
Chuck LaFLange (01:17:38.76)
Oh, well, congratulations. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. Yeah.
mike miller (01:17:45.887)
amazing people that I met in those rooms that I wouldn't be where I was at without them. And then I'm always grateful for my wife and grateful for, we had a wedding anniversary a couple of days ago. So, you know, she's always, thank you. Yeah. So she's always top of the charts with the gratitudes, but cause she's a trooper and a champ. So yeah, that's where I'm at. Thanks for us.
Chuck LaFLange (01:18:07.048)
Yeah, awesome, awesome. I've got a couple different ones. So the show is past the year mark now. Yeah, right. That was a few weeks ago. I kind of let it come and go without any sort of fanfare, but I got a couple messages. One, and I don't know if I think I might have told you about this, the drummer from Hootie and the Blowfish reached out to me.
mike miller (01:18:11.743)
Congratulations, that's huge.
mike miller (01:18:36.447)
in tummy.
Chuck LaFLange (01:18:36.904)
No, yeah. He's like, hey man, a friend of yours told me about the, I wanna know who the friend was, right? Hey, you wanna come on? All right, he said, I'd love to be on your podcast. I think what you're doing is great. And it was like, whoa man, right? And now that's kind of the first person that's approached me of that, and I'm a 90s kid.
mike miller (01:18:43.135)
Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (01:18:53.928)
So like who did like that's a like whoa, right? So all of a sudden, you know, i'm gonna let her be you know i'm i'm right on the youtube I can relive in my you know, my my teens there, right? But um Yeah, so he's coming on we're recording here in a couple days actually on uh friday friday night. Yeah. Yeah, so Super excited right? It was it was kind of like this I like to use the term validation of purpose, but it's not that it's just like that's validation of effort Maybe right that the show has kind of gotten to that place, right? So, you know
mike miller (01:18:55.711)
Brush with greatness. Yeah, yeah. That's awesome.
mike miller (01:19:10.175)
Oh amazing. Yeah good for you. That's that's really cool. Yeah.
mike miller (01:19:19.615)
Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (01:19:23.304)
Fair enough, fair enough, right? Fair enough, yeah, no, that's well said. Yeah, yeah, right, so, yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you, thank you. And the other one was a message from, believe it or not, my arresting officer. My last arresting officer, right? He reached out to me, I don't know, three days ago.
mike miller (01:19:23.679)
I mean, I think it's both because without the effort you wouldn't get there, but without the purpose, he wouldn't be attracted to being on the show. And without you being who you are, he also wouldn't do that, right? So yeah, it's huge. Yeah, it's really big. Congratulations.
mike miller (01:19:44.799)
I believe it. Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (01:19:49.224)
Who the fuck is this? This is on Facebook. Like I don't know your name. Like it's so -and -so. I'm the guy that you know, hey, whoa, right, you know and When I and I'm not gonna get in that whole story there was it was a big to -do, right? It was a big to -do when I got my last arrest was right No, no, no He reached out he sees no longer part of the drug squad. He's moved into to murder cop in these days, but I
mike miller (01:19:52.991)
Okay.
mike miller (01:20:04.959)
Oh, okay.
I thought you weren't going to get into the story of the conversation with him. I was like, but that's what we're here for.
Chuck LaFLange (01:20:17.672)
He reached out to me to say like, hey, I see what you're doing and holy shit, man. It was like, whoa, right? Like a year ago, a year and a half ago, right? Fuck off, cop. That would have been like a non -starter, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, right? Yeah. So that was a big deal. That really was for me, right? It was a couple big things this week. Yeah.
mike miller (01:20:22.783)
Wow, amazing. Yeah. And he would have been looking, he would have been contacting you for something different. Yeah, that's huge. Yeah, that's crazy. I would like to say that I'm not a huge fan of all police officers based on my
Chuck LaFLange (01:20:48.136)
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You know.
mike miller (01:20:52.671)
lived experience. But to hear that there's one that like has a choice point in his life to be like, could I reach out to this person and say, kudos to you for what you're doing. Like I see you from there to here and that's big. Because he has a choice he can do that or he can just not right. And the fact that he did that when he didn't need to is like, that's that's pretty big, right. And yeah, I think that that's that's, you know,
Chuck LaFLange (01:21:18.216)
No kidding, right? And it's not like we had a friendly relationship, right? There was that five minutes in the room, you know, when it was after the thing and I'd been sitting for 12 hours and when they brought me into the room and said, so, it was like, fuck you, man, right? And that was like the end of our relationship. So, for him to...
mike miller (01:21:20.063)
actually something that probably not many people have experiences like that. And that's a huge thing. But it illustrates the change. Yeah.
Chuck LaFLange (01:21:44.008)
It was a big deal, man. It was a big deal. So yeah, yeah, I feel pretty pretty great about that. Yeah So yeah, it's a couple things to be grateful for right and of course I am also very grateful to every single person who continues to watch listen to share Support in any which way that you do right buy a hoodie guys. I'm not I don't have the thing up behind me maybe I'll We got the new hoodies coming out mom's working with me
mike miller (01:21:46.911)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's huge, amazing. Yeah. Look. You're slipping.
Chuck LaFLange (01:22:08.36)
We got new hoodies coming, we got new stickers coming. This whole you are loved message is getting out there to the masses, so I'm pretty grateful for that. Hey guys, anytime you do any one of these things, you're getting me a little bit closer to living my best life. My best life is to continue making a humble living, spreading the message. The message is this. If you're in active addiction right now, today could be that day. Today could be the day that you start a lifelong Yatra. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, go to church, go to a meeting, call in to detox, I don't care. Do whatever it is you gotta do to get that journey started.
It is so much better than the alternative. If you have a loved one who's suffering an addiction right now, you're just taking the time to listen to our conversation. If you could just take one more minute out of your day and text that person, let them know they are loved, use the words, that little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings them back. Boom. Perfect.
mike miller (01:22:41.375)
You are loved.
Shattered Stigma
Yatra
Morning Cup
