236-JOEL ILIFFE

Chuck LaFLange (00:01.873)
Watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds, welcome to another episode of the Ash is Awesome podcast. I'm your host, Chuck LaFlange, checking in from Krabi, Thailand. My guest today is from Byron Bay, Australia. Welcome to Joel Iliffe How you doing today, Joel?

Joel (00:14.7)
Yeah, good man. How you going?

Chuck LaFLange (00:16.477)
I'm good. I'm good. Three takes behind the curtain. Three takes to get that one right. So we got it. So yay for that. Right. Name and location. Perfect.

Joel (00:27.131)
Yeah, top marks. Top marks for pronunciation.

Chuck LaFLange (00:31.385)
Hey, gold star, my chart, we're gonna take it. We're gonna take it. So listen, of course we've been chatting pre-recorded and you know, we've already done a little bit of chatting. So for anybody that's listening, I guess, I'll just do a peek behind the curtain again here. Joel and I connected through my friend and fellow podcaster, Paris on Shit's Fucked, who she's got an amazing show. She just appeared on our show. I'm scheduled to appear on hers here in a couple of weeks as well. So.

She was showing me your reels and we tend to do this guest exchange thing, Joel. All the podcasters are like, hey, you know, I got a really good person. I got a good person. And I gave her a couple like some gold nuggets. And you were the first person that she had suggested to me. So for whatever that's worth, you've got some esteem in the at least in Paris's podcast world. So no pressure, though. No pressure over here. Right.

Joel (01:25.708)
Yeah, she's a fucking legend, so yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:28.129)
Yeah, she is. She is right. She is. Yeah. We've we've done some collab reels and stuff now together and we just got some other appearances coming up on my show as well. I quite like working with her. Right. So yeah, yeah. Let's just let's just get right into it. The first time you got busted up now that I've got the Australian slang down, right? There you go. So if you could take us back to that, it's kind of a good way to kick off your story and we'll go from there.

Joel (01:38.503)
Yeah.

Joel (01:56.086)
Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, first time.

The first time busted up, I would be totally out of control would be when I took MDMA for the first time. I would have been, would have been.

Joel (02:16.754)
19 and yeah, I was hanging out with some older boys and I wanted to impress them. I wanted them to think I'm cool, you know, we went out, had a few drinks and went out to a nightclub and I ended up having a pill and what waited about an hour, wasn't feeling anything and then begged them for a second one. One of the boys gave me a second pill.

And so I bombed that and then as it slipped down my throat, I felt the first one coming on. And then obviously the second one, second one kicked in and I was just a fucking menace, like, like freaking people out, like cruising around this nightclub, like trying to talk to people and like tell them how much I love them and all this shit. But like just, but yeah, like I could see the concern in their eyes and they were just like.

Chuck LaFLange (03:06.409)
Hehehehe

Joel (03:11.634)
I remember, I still remember the look, this one particular girl looking at me, just like, giving me the look of just like, can you just leave me alone? Like, you know what I mean?

Chuck LaFLange (03:22.962)
I know that look well. I know that look really well for women actually. Yeah. Normally it's followed by who are you get out of my shower. But you know, so anyway.

Joel (03:34.127)
Yeah, that was that was kind of the first time like.

Chuck LaFLange (03:39.049)
That's funny, man. That reminds me, and it makes me howl actually, both mushrooms and edibles, like weed edibles. I've said to people, I don't even know how many times over the years, right? I don't feel it. Don't take another one. Don't, right? Cause you're gonna feel it, like it's gonna happen and you're gonna regret the second one. And nobody ever listens, right? Nor did I ever listen.

right and then we all end up the same place you are going holy shit right too much too much so yeah anyway um but okay now we got that out of the way why don't you just kick us on into your story and how you tell your story and you know because you've done it a thousand times so yeah right yeah

Joel (04:19.094)
Sure, sure. So I guess dialing it back a little bit a few years prior, I think we had a bit of a family breakdown. So I was I was living in Perth on the other coast of Australia on the western coast. And my mom and dad separated. And dad flew back to England, which is where I'm from where I was born originally. And so I was just living at home with mom and she was going through a bit of a tough

time to in I was in high school and in school I was I was getting bullies a fair bit there and I looked a bit differently I dressed a bit differently as kind of expressing myself in all this black and dyed hair and stuff you know I was kind of going through a bit of shit so that was my way of dealing with it and it was what the it wasn't well received by the other boys at the school. And

Chuck LaFLange (05:16.885)
Okay.

Joel (05:17.742)
So I felt like I just didn't, I didn't belong anywhere. And I was kind of getting picked on. I didn't really know who I was and what my place was. And yeah, I just wanted to be accepted really, which I think is pretty common for most boys that age, you know, and yeah. So, and then I was prescribed Valium. So I was, yeah, prescribed Valium when I was 17.

Chuck LaFLange (05:37.345)
course.

Joel (05:47.835)
for anxiety and a panic disorder they thought I had. Which I think was a...

a catalyst for leading into my addiction. And so I was given these, like it was, it was how I...

Chuck LaFLange (06:06.474)
Okay.

Joel (06:14.654)
the valium being prescribed to him by a doctor, right?

I learned that I could take a tablet when I was feeling these uncomfortable feelings, like feeling anxious or this, this sense of panic or dread or whatever it may be, not feeling good about myself. I could take this tablet that was prescribed by a professional and all of my, my problems would just suddenly go away and, and I, I felt good about myself. Um, and that I, I remember that, that being a huge moment for me. Like.

realizing, hey, like I these human feelings that I'm experiencing, like, I don't need to these uncomfortable ones. And, and so that kind of really opened me up to the world of drugs. And, and

Chuck LaFLange (07:06.537)
Did you, did you at that point, Joel, really have that much introspection at that age? I mean, that's a bit of a late bloomer age as far as drug-using careers go, so I wouldn't be surprised if you did, but was it like, hey, my, or is that something that you can now go back with a bit of a hindsight and go, okay, that's what was happening within me?

Joel (07:24.554)
That was definitely a lot of hindsight now. I did not have that self-awareness back then, but I guess I still had a, maybe it was a bit more of a simple kind of thing for me. It was like, hey, I'm feeling anxious and shitty and horrible and I now can take this tablet and then now I don't feel that way anymore.

Chuck LaFLange (07:29.502)
Yeah, OK.

Chuck LaFLange (07:46.181)
Okay, okay, that makes sense to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Before we continue, there was something that you dialed, you said, that I kind of dialed in on, a panic disorder or something that they thought you had.

Joel (08:01.654)
Yeah, well, I kind of take that diagnosis with a grain of salt because they were giving me this, saying I had this disorder. I think it was just like a direct response to what I was experiencing at the time. My parents had separated, my dad had left the country and I was getting bullied in school. I was also kind of like, my mom was having a tough time and I kind of took on this like parent role.

Chuck LaFLange (08:08.833)
OK.

Joel (08:31.026)
And it just felt like they just gave me a label and just want to put a bow on it. Like, hey, oh, you've got a panic disorder. So yeah, take these pills. You know what I mean? It's like, I don't feel like very holistic approach to my experience.

Chuck LaFLange (08:31.808)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (08:39.796)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (08:46.382)
Okay. Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (08:53.413)
Absolutely. And that makes perfect sense to me. I thought that answer might go, but I do have to ask. So anyway, continue on with your story. I didn't mean to interrupt. I guess I did mean to, but...

Joel (09:07.308)
No worries. Yeah. So I guess, yeah, from, from there, I was taking, taking some Valium. I was getting bullied in school, started smoking a bit of weed with some friends, you know, often a few times a week. That was that. And then finished school.

got out of there and started experimenting with MDMA kind of catching up to that part of the story and using a bit of meth as well. Once I tried the MDMA I was like, oh, holy shit, there's like a whole world of drugs out here that I want to try. And I got really experimental with it. I was trying psychedelics and stuff like that. And then the Valium, I then found Xanax and it was like way stronger. And I thought, fuck yeah, I'm going to use this.

Chuck LaFLange (09:35.507)
Mm-hmm.

Joel (09:59.534)
Um, and so this is all about the age of 18, 19, right? I'm saying to, to navigate through this. The, I started to, um, deal drugs as well. I just started off quite small time to selling a little bit of weeds in there, you know? Um, but aside from like just earning a bit of extra cash, which is nice. The main, the main attraction of it for me was the sense of like power, autonomy control. Um,

Chuck LaFLange (10:06.623)
Yeah.

Joel (10:29.106)
acceptance that brought me in terms of like, yeah, these, these guys in school that were that were bullying me, maybe felt like I wasn't enough. Like they, they were suddenly, like hitting me up, wanting to buy me and inviting me to parties. And then that now got like girls interested in me. And like, I just felt like,

Chuck LaFLange (10:30.101)
Hmm. I can relate, yeah.

Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (10:50.093)
Yeah.

Joel (10:57.93)
I'm the man, you know what I mean? Like I could see a bright future. Ha ha ha.

Chuck LaFLange (11:01.761)
Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah, yeah, right. That's funny Joel, and I'll interrupt again. You just articulated something that I didn't even realize about myself. You know, after all this time. But it was like, oh my, everything you just said right now, I just went, holy shit. So there you go. So thanks. Right, now I have a whole other avenue to start exploring about myself and my journey. But like, absolutely.

100%. I've always, well, I was an entrepreneur. I tried drugs. It just makes sense that I ended up being a drug dealer. Right? But no, there was so much more going on there and you've just kind of opened my eyes to it. So thank you for that and continue. But yeah. Yeah. Right.

Joel (11:37.571)
Yeah.

Joel (11:42.538)
Yeah, awesome. I'm sure you could be great at it as well. Like I'm sure you were great. Cause you got the, you got the gift of the gab as well. I'm sure you could talk anyone into anything, you know?

Chuck LaFLange (11:56.175)
Well drugs, here's the thing about drugs, it's not like a used car. This shit sells itself, right? You know, like that's like a, that's a no-brainer, right? Yeah, yeah. Um, but yeah, I certainly, I mean I was good at it, right? There's no doubt about that. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely, yeah, yeah. Continue on with your story though, please do.

Joel (11:59.659)
Yes!

Joel (12:09.212)
You gotta be good at what you do, you know? You gotta put in...

Joel (12:20.374)
So, yeah, so dealing in that, yeah, kind of like starting to be able to make a bit of money and whatnot. And this is all kind of like running coinciding with my, my drug use escalating and me experimenting with more things. I remember the first time that I felt addicted to drugs.

Chuck LaFLange (12:48.244)
Yep.

Joel (12:48.954)
one, this one moment I remember actually. So I was using Xanax every day, every day. Using meth, like, just going on binges, you know, I'd be up for like four or five days at a time and do a big binge and then, and then I would just cruise on Xanis for a few days and then be back on the meth. It's kind of thing. But I was so young and naive. I didn't see that it was a problem. I was just like, fuck yeah, I like to party, you know. And then I

Uh, had a girlfriend. We, we, uh, went to the hotel room. Just, just for a night, you know, we did that. And then like, I had a full on breakdown in the hotel room. Cause I didn't bring any, any Xannies with me. Uh, and I didn't, didn't think it'd be a big deal. I was like, Oh, I had, I was smoking weed and that. And I was just like, yes, wait, like I'm just cruising. I think we're having a drink. And, and then I was just like getting worse and worse. And then I just like fucking broke down into years and was like,

Chuck LaFLange (13:25.054)
Yep.

Joel (13:49.427)
I can't be like I need I need to go pick up a bottle. And I remember that was a pretty intense moment. I was like, holy shit, I've actually got a problem here.

Joel (14:05.07)
And that was, yes, that was, I got some of the Xannies. I was, I really enjoyed the stimulants, right? Like the, the MDMA and, and pedamines, whichever ones, cocaine and stuff. But like, for me, they were like, they were just like bits of fun, right? And then the, the in-between parts, like take getting onto the.

getting on the Xanies and the drugs that really calmed me and brought me down, like really helped me. And they, they felt like they were, they were the ones I was attracted to really, uh, helped with my ADHD and anxiety and like racing thoughts. And like this, I just brought me back to a baseline so I could feel that they're, they're so like dark and alluring, right? Like these, um,

Chuck LaFLange (14:41.438)
Yeah.

Joel (14:55.134)
these calming drugs. And so I remember like thinking like, I want I want to experiment more of this and go down this, this slower Avenue. And I remember I would have, I think it was about I was 19 still maybe 20 at this point. A friend of mine introduced me to codeine. And I remember it was like they're called Panadine Extra these particular brand.

like 15 minks of codeine in the tablet. And I remember like, yeah, I think I've taken them before for like a headache or something, because they were over the counter at the time. My friend said, mate, these like this, like, well, you just need to take three of them. But instead of the two that they suggest in the box, and you're going to get a feeling. I remember like the, I was so nervous to, to disobey the rules on the box, even though I've been fucking

bombing Zanny's smoking bath and stuff. Because it was like a prescription, because it seemed like big writing, and it's like, do not take more than this, like doctor's orders. I was like, ooh, oh, like the doctor's my best.

Chuck LaFLange (16:08.521)
Oh, wow. By that point for me, it was challenge accepted, right? You know, so continue though. Yeah.

Joel (16:18.25)
So bombs those three and then there was like a, that was like, for me, it felt like I'd been searching, searching through all these different classes of drugs. And finally found what I was looking for.

Chuck LaFLange (16:38.765)
That's a familiar story, that one is. I never got endopiates myself, so, but what you just said there, I hear that, a version of that from just about everybody that ends up going down that road, right? So, wow.

Joel (16:51.902)
It's like a feeling of nostalgia, like being home, you know, like I'm here.

Chuck LaFLange (16:56.549)
Yeah. Boom. There it is. I was waiting for that or mother's hug. Because those are the two every time.

Joel (17:03.027)
Yeah, I was picking up the numbers hard, you know. But that was when we get into the heavy opiates, right? I'll go down that way. But I guess, yeah, I was like, this is it. This is the one. This is what I've been looking for. And from there, like these, you know how I was saying, I took like three tablets instead of the two.

Chuck LaFLange (17:06.549)
Yeah.

Joel (17:29.278)
I started to bump up the doses, increase, increase. His tolerance grows exponentially, like very, very quickly. And, um, and then I started extracting the coding. So I'd run, run the tablets through like a cold water, like a very simple cold water extraction process and extract the coding so I could just drink it as a liquid and then all the paracetamol and stuff, I wouldn't be ingesting that cause that'd kill me. For the, the amount of tablets I was having. And then I'm like, and then I'm, uh,

Chuck LaFLange (17:56.374)
Yeah.

Joel (17:58.97)
using the codeine daily and extracting 100 or 120 tablets each morning. Yeah, from three to over a hundred, you know what I mean? Like it just kind of like, I was just like a person of extremes. And if I wasn't like completely fucked off my head, like it, you know, I wasn't satisfied. So going and having just a couple and just getting up a little bit.

Chuck LaFLange (18:05.105)
Holy chow, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (18:23.301)
Yep.

Joel (18:28.47)
little bit fucked up my friends like that was just didn't interest me I wanted to I wanted to really just go as far as I could with it.

Chuck LaFLange (18:36.381)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Crazy.

Joel (18:38.622)
Um, yeah. And I guess, yeah, from there kind of moved onto, um, Oxycontin because codeine just wasn't strong enough for me. Um, and yeah, Oxy was, was so, and I, and I was dealing right. And so using a lot of Oxy using about 400 milligrams of Oxy a day, um, which, which was getting quite expensive and, um, I was just smoking it at this stage. And, and I was.

Chuck LaFLange (18:45.929)
Mm-hmm.

Joel (19:09.134)
my dealing had really increased too. So like I said before, I just started selling like small time weed. And then I realized, oh, I'm actually quite good at this job. And then I started selling bigger amounts of weed and then selling to people so they could then sell, you know what I mean? Kind of like moving up the plane a bit. And then I started to like press MDMA caps.

Chuck LaFLange (19:28.689)
Yeah.

Joel (19:37.566)
and buy like thousands of things at a time. And I was getting like a really good income from it. And it was like, oh, this is like a career thing for me. I could do really well in this area. And it was still this like party mentality of like buying everything I wanted and like just having loads of cash everywhere, multiple cars and girls and parties and like.

all this kind of stuff and it was all very lavish and I could kind of do what I wanted. Which is the freedom and autonomy was really nice and that feeling like I'm valued here, I'm like an important person in this world and people want and need me. And when Oxy came into my life I was probably, I would have been like 22, started experimenting with Oxy.

And things shifted in a big way in a short period of time. So there was like a bunch of us that were dealing together and pushing some bigger numbers. And we had big aspirations. I feel like we were moving in a good way, in a positive way. Like.

Chuck LaFLange (20:50.356)
Yep.

Joel (21:03.894)
achieving our goals in terms of money and amounts and stuff. And then, um, and we're collaborating and working quite well. And then oxy came in and then it became cutthroat. And suddenly there was like, it was like violence and stuff happening and people getting robbed. And it suddenly became this like criminal, this whole criminal, I know it was criminal before like dealing drugs and whatnot. It came.

Chuck LaFLange (21:20.801)
Hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (21:29.782)
I know what you mean, no. Yeah, yep, yep.

Joel (21:32.906)
So for me, it became less about, well, not for me, but like what I was seeing around me, it became less about the money and more about the lifestyle in terms of like the drug dealing lifestyle. And like, yeah, it was just hectic. Like the relationships changed and I didn't feel like I could trust anyone. And I felt like I would fucking rip anyone off for oxy as well, you know what I mean? Like it just really, it just.

and ran rampant through our whole circle. Anyways, I would have been at 24, been running this for a couple of years. Australia, reformulated Oxy, so you could no longer crush it. So you couldn't smoke it or snort it or shoot it, whatever, I wasn't shooting yet. And so we all...

Chuck LaFLange (22:21.968)
Okay.

Joel (22:31.102)
moved into heroin because that was like the next logical step in terms of getting the same, the same fix and not, not getting dope sick from it because like from Oxy, like I was going into pretty heavy withdrawals when I wasn't using. So I'd be using all the time. Um, and then not being able to smoke it. Yeah. Like heroin was, was the next step. Um, and yeah, like from there, it kind of got onto the needle.

Chuck LaFLange (22:47.358)
Okay.

Joel (23:01.852)
You know, um, and it was at 20, 24 and the shit was just out of control.

Chuck LaFLange (23:02.521)
Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (23:07.937)
Oh, so this is a relatively short amount of time then, and like that you described it, what you're sounding like when you're telling the story, it's like, it sounds like it's happening over years, but really this is a pretty short amount of time, relatively speaking, right? Like myself, I imagine you told yourself at some point, you would never put a needle in your arm, right? Is that, yeah, right. What's that, when you do that for the first time,

Joel (23:16.878)
Mm.

Chuck LaFLange (23:37.509)
And I don't want to do the whole triggering, how did it all feel and all that, but what do you say to yourself? How do you justify that to yourself the first time? Or do you justify to yourself? Is it something that just happens?

Joel (23:51.542)
Well, for me, I was always afraid of needles and I was disgusted by them. And I was disgusted by people that chose to use them. And I thought I could never be further from something. You know what I mean? Like it was just this like horrible, awful thing. And I recall the first time I used it. So...

Chuck LaFLange (24:07.317)
Yeah.

Joel (24:21.63)
Um, I was at a, I was at a party and, and yeah, and I bumped into an old mate of mine and we both like pretty poor influences on each other and I hadn't seen, I hadn't seen him in maybe a year and, um, yeah, see him there straight away. We're like, should we get some fucking Charlie gets, should get some Coke and like, you know, like get on with it kind of thing. And.

Chuck LaFLange (24:35.529)
Yeah.

Joel (24:49.378)
And he's like, yeah, I know a guy. And we jump in a taxi and head to this house. And then on the front door, he like, he turns to me and he's like, mate, gotta be honest with you, it's heroin that we're getting inside. It's not coke. And.

Chuck LaFLange (25:09.141)
So does he like, he just wanted to get you there because he needed your money to kick in on it? Is that what it was or like?

Joel (25:17.15)
No, I didn't. I didn't. I didn't pay for like he had his own money. He was dealing with you. We both had we both had coin, you know, it wasn't it wasn't the money thing. It I feel like maybe it was just like the enabling factor just wanted some support. Yeah, yeah. And I had a few pennies in me and I've been drinking to was pretty

Chuck LaFLange (25:22.556)
Okay.

Chuck LaFLange (25:27.603)
Okay.

Chuck LaFLange (25:35.049)
Misery loves company.

Joel (25:46.282)
inhibitions were pretty low, but I was I was pretty upset with him. I was like, man, what the fuck are you can't? That's that's not cool. You know, like, I'm here for coke. I don't use heroin. And we go in there. And, and he ends up having a shot like the dealer kind of sorts him out. And I'm sitting there a bit awkward. And anyways, I kind of

Resist for a little while and then I said well fuck it then like give me a line. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna shoot it Just I'll snort it snort it and it just didn't really didn't really give me a whole lot And then I'm

Chuck LaFLange (26:23.269)
Yeah, yeah. And of course, by this point, you've got a tolerance built up though too, right? So, right, for opiates in general. Yeah, yeah.

Joel (26:27.906)
to oxygen. Yeah, and say I, so and then after I've had the line, I've kind of like broken the seal, you know what I mean? I'm like, what all bets are off, like I've my bound, I've just crossed my boundary already. So what's more, so then I'm like, alright, can you strap me up, you know, and then kind of go from there. And, and then we do it and, and he fucked it up my arms.

Chuck LaFLange (26:41.834)
Yeah.

Joel (26:55.542)
mess is horrible man like I wore a jumper for like weeks afterwards trying to like hide the evidence and I felt so much shame about it and it wasn't just the shame of like oh what's everyone going to think it was like the most damaging part was the relationship with myself like how

how I'd let myself down and done something that I swore that I would never do. I saw myself in a different light and I just thought I was a piece of shit.

Chuck LaFLange (27:27.486)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (27:33.893)
Yeah, yeah, right. But we have coping mechanisms built in for those feelings, don't we? By now, at this point in your drug career, you've already got a coping mechanism for feelings you don't wanna feel. So I can, I think I can imagine where the story goes, but I won't jump to assumptions. I'll let you tell how it goes from there. So.

Joel (27:43.606)
Yeah.

Joel (27:52.266)
Yeah, I was like, oh, I've got something for this. Oh, yeah, that's right. I'll go ahead and have another shot. Ha ha ha.

Chuck LaFLange (27:56.101)
Yeah. Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That that is a level of desperation, man. That I just today's my 18 month. Well, yesterday, today, whatever, because I'm 12 hours ahead of time. And I used to be right. So it's my 18 month. And yeah, it is. It is. Oh, thank you. Thank you. And I tried to explain in a post like this, this desperation. And it's like, it's not the intensity of that desperation because

Joel (28:01.558)
Yeah.

Joel (28:13.038)
Is it? Mate, amazing!

Chuck LaFLange (28:25.597)
Everybody has major points of strife in their life and where things have gotten really bad. And it's just, but it's, you can't explain it to people that haven't felt it because it's a, it's a, it's the nature of that desperation. It's this, you know, like I'm desperate not to feel the things I'm feeling the only way that I know how, or my brain, or at least my default to feeling things I don't want to feel is to do the things that makes me feel the things I don't want to feel. And then now I'm just like, it's this,

weird, unless you felt it, you'll never understand it. Like I'm gonna do the thing that's killing me because it makes me not feel the things I don't wanna feel, which only makes me feel those things more to make it, like it's just this horrible cycle where at some point you don't even know where that snake eating its tail starts and ends, right? And it's just, you're just fucking the middle of it, right? So to try and explain that to somebody is, it's really hard to do, right? But yeah, so.

Anyway, I don't mean to interject and make it about me. I just, yeah, yeah.

Joel (29:29.67)
No, no, no

Chuck LaFLange (29:37.534)
Yeah, yeah.

Joel (29:57.302)
And that's my only way out. Like I'm fucking, I'm, I'm using that. That's my survival method. Um, yeah. So, so that was, I mean, I guess, I guess it was a few weeks of that, like feeling that a lot of shame. I was still hooked on opiates, but I, I went back to Oxy. Didn't want to be anywhere near heroin. I was scared of it. And I was scared of, of how incredible I felt using it as well. Um.

Chuck LaFLange (30:03.177)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (30:23.361)
Hmm.

Joel (30:24.882)
Although similar to oxy is the difference, you know, and I think I lasted a couple of months of just fucking around with oxy again, trying to like, pretend like it never happened, pushing it out of my mind, I guess. And then, and then I one day, I was like, no, fuck it. Getting some tried to smoke it for a few weeks. And then, yeah, didn't last.

then the fucking this is grim right there like I didn't know how to I didn't know how to inject and so I went on like YouTube and was like trying to do it following this YouTube video and it got your hand up. Yeah, you done it.

Chuck LaFLange (31:07.521)
Oh yeah, you probably watched the same ones I did, man. Right? Probably, right? Yeah, yeah. I imagine, well, I almost guarantee, because there's only so many, there's surprisingly few videos about how to inject yourself, right? About the phlebotomy, that's how I learned that that's what the art of extracting blood is, is phlebotomy, right? Or the profession of, so yeah, yeah.

Joel (31:12.675)
Let's look at it.

Joel (31:27.982)
Yeah, I mean it was like a crime scene man. It was just fucking bloody. It was horrible. I don't know. Yeah, so.

Chuck LaFLange (31:34.197)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just tell you for me, man, I was never opiates, but I did slam meth. And when you miss with meth, it is the most excruciating pain ever. There is nothing I have ever felt that feels, and it's horrifying, horrible pain when you miss, when you miss your vein with it, right? So.

Yeah, there were some ugly days there, man. You know, when I was learning how and fuck, it was horrible. Yeah, it's a nasty, nasty thing to go through, right? So, but yeah, yeah. Anyway, continue please.

Joel (32:09.399)
Yeah.

Joel (32:14.31)
Um, yeah. So, okay. So here we are. I'm like, I'm like 24, 25 around at this point slamming every day on the, on the Xanny's every day.

Joel (32:31.19)
And I think I kind of touched on before, like I'm slamming meth as well and like other stimulants and stuff. But like that was just like these little pocket, it'd be like on a weekend here and there, blah, blah. But then like the, say I went out on a night out with some friends or something and we got on the stimulants or I got on the stimulants. I would just be spending the whole evening like.

Chuck LaFLange (32:39.676)
Okay.

Chuck LaFLange (32:53.17)
Yep.

Joel (33:00.042)
like waiting to go home so they can go home and get on the downers. And then that and then when other people would be like, they would stop using or stop, you know, say we went out and had some pills, man, you may have something when they would like, be like, all right, the night's over and they'd go to bed. That would be my time to shine. Yeah, but this is my time. This is when I start doing my thing getting on the downers. And then that kept me really

Chuck LaFLange (33:02.784)
Yeah.

Joel (33:28.142)
lodged in this like addiction cycle of it being a never ending, a never ending thing, because I could just link up these like the highs of the stimulants with the like the calming lows in between. And so I just never had to be clear minded, you know what I mean?

Chuck LaFLange (33:42.025)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (33:48.037)
I do, I do, yeah. So, continue, yeah, please.

Joel (33:51.307)
So.

Joel (33:54.702)
Yeah, 24, 25. Um, also, yes. From here, I, um, things just really went down downhill when I started using heroin. Um, I, I tried. Like it was just, it was out of control. I had it, I had a girlfriend for a while. She was, she was a non-user. I didn't use anything. Didn't even smoke a cigarette. Like she was proper. She was really well behaved and I was just fucking psycho. Um, and.

Yeah, I tried different treatments. I went to detox a couple of times. I was, this is kind of like, I didn't really want to do this for myself at the time. It was just pressure from girlfriend or from my mom, this kind of thing. So I went to detox a couple of times, kind of stayed off it for a few weeks, for a couple months after and then just got straight back into it. I was on like Suboxone, like Buprenorphine.

for years, I think on and off since, since I was on the oxys actually, since like 22 I was on and off of. Then I was on like methadone as well, which was just a nightmare, didn't really do any good for me. But then like, and we'd been, we'd been like, I've been dealing and like kind of making all this money for a while and then it would have been like the age of 20, 27, 28.

Um, when things just really went downhill and like this earning, earning thousands of dollars a week through dealing, like I was spending, spending that on, on smack, um, and drugs and all this other stuff. Um, and yeah, split up with that girlfriend and was living in this shitty backpackers, um, around town. Like these like squalor, it's real horrible places. And, um,

I'm just trying to like, yeah, make money to get by, you know? Um, and so it really, it really changed my whole lifestyle. There was no more partying and stuff. It was like me, me alone inside, like just shooting and like, um, it was real isolating and dark and I had lost a lot of people, pushed a lot of people out of my life and they'd push me out of their lives.

Chuck LaFLange (36:24.308)
Mm-hmm.

Joel (36:24.694)
staff, you know, um, and would have got, I was at the age of, um, I went to, yeah, I would have been, yeah, 28 or so. Went into a mental health facility to address my, my addiction issues. I didn't want to be there once again. It was more of a pressure thing. Um, I ended up overdosing inside that rehab. Like I had drugs delivered to the rehab and then an overdose while I was in there.

Chuck LaFLange (36:47.201)
Mm-hmm.

Joel (36:54.898)
And they shut it down because of that whole situation. And then I came out of there and then I was just overdosing all the time, all the time. So I had like nine overdoses in one week following that rehab exit. And just like, just doing crazy shit. Like I remember that first, the first overdose after that.

Chuck LaFLange (37:16.746)
Wow.

Joel (37:24.666)
after the exit from rehab, I picked up like a bag of meth and a bag of heroin. And I and the reason I got the methods because I was like, Oh, much tolerance is going to be low on for the heroin. So I have a shot of meth first and then and then I'll have heroin after and it's not going to drop me. Yeah. And then I'll pick both bags up and then like, Oh, actually, I'll just have one little bit of heroin first.

And then I, you know what I mean? Like I'm just like, I'm gonna out there and then I overdose, wake up in hospital. And then I said to the doctor, I'm like, hey, can you, how do I, I wanna leave. Like, can you dismiss me or whatever they call it, you know? And she goes, oh, I want you to look more, you need to look more energized before I release you. You look too dopey to be released to the street yet.

Chuck LaFLange (37:57.405)
Yeah.

Joel (38:20.682)
And so then I head into the emergency room bathroom, and I've still got like a pick in my pocket and a bag of meth. So then I have a shot of meth in the bathroom. Come back out, the doctor says, oh, you're looking like way better, more energized. No worries, you can go kind of thing. And I walk out of there like, haha, fuck yeah. Show you the thing, you know, made her look a fool. Walk out into the hospital.

after I crouched down behind like a car, I have a shot of heroin and overdose again, and then get taken back into the room with the same doctor. This happens days in a row, like just this crazy situation where I don't think, I got asked by a therapist, my psychiatrist, like was I trying to kill myself? And honestly, I don't think it was like a...

Chuck LaFLange (38:59.074)
Oh my... Oh, jeez, eh.

Joel (39:19.61)
suicide attempt is more like I, I just stopped.

stopped having the will to live. And it was just like, every time I would do this and have a shot. I guess being a heroin user mixed with Benzo, like it's a fatal combination, like lethal combination, right? Like it's very high risk. It was almost like every day, I was making this decision of like, my pain is so extreme that I'm experiencing.

Chuck LaFLange (39:39.366)
It really is. Yeah. Yep.

Joel (39:54.406)
I'm prepared to die to be free of that pain. And so it was like this matter of rolling the dice every day. Like either I'm gonna be like so close to death that I don't need to experience this pain because I'm gonna be so high. Like I have freedom from it or I'm gonna die. And that was it. And I knew the risks.

Chuck LaFLange (40:05.044)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (40:16.133)
Yeah.

Joel (40:22.794)
and that's why I was having so many overdoses.

Chuck LaFLange (40:26.493)
When I say to people, or when people say, oh, you're doing drugs, take it in the easy way, it's like, does anything about what you just said sound easy? You know, like there's nothing easy about that. You know, and so to try and explain that to people who might be judgmental, you know, because they don't have that experience or whatever, or you know, or they lack empathy in some cases. It's like, there is nothing easy about that life, right? Like, this is nothing, so.

Please, like, nothing, everything you just said, just, it just breaks my heart that another human being is going through that, right? So, fuck off with your taking the easy way out, right? Like, there's nothing easy about that. That's a brutally hard way to live, man. I'm sure glad that you're still here with us after experiencing that. It sounds to me like you're getting to that point though, right, in your story, it kind of sounds like you're getting to that turning point.

And if not, oh my, jeez, hey, but please continue and, you know, let us, let us, yeah.

Joel (41:27.274)
For sure. Like I hear, and I think, um, yeah, there's a, there's a lot of stigma and, um, misinformation, um, and just see that lack of empathy surrounding it. And that's why I'm so passionate about sharing my story. And that's why I find it so inspirational to see people doing what you're doing. And like speaking about this stuff openly, I think it's really important. Um, but yes, we are coming to, we are coming to some more positive, positive.

Chuck LaFLange (41:54.409)
Hehehehe

Joel (41:56.97)
Um, but I guess I should, so there's a little bit more heaviness before we, we quite get there.

Chuck LaFLange (42:03.43)
Yeah, yeah, no, yeah.

Joel (42:05.526)
But yeah, I, so I can't, yeah, so I'm floating around like I'm living in, so this is following that string of overdoses. I'm living with this one, like this one close mate of mine in the backpack is like, he was a heavy meth user, I'm a heavy heroin user, and we're both just kind of like helping each other out. So I'll be like sick withdrawing in bed, and he would like come and bring me food and like.

force me to eat and stuff and vice versa when he was coming down and like, it was all a bit of a mess. And I was, I was really disconnected from, from everybody in my life. Friends had just kind of pushed me aside and I'd pushed them aside. And like I, he, he was kind of like my only person. And then he, he ended up taking his own life. And, and I just remember that feeling of like,

Chuck LaFLange (42:52.169)
Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (42:58.307)
I'm sorry.

Joel (43:04.31)
Like I've, I've got nobody else. Like he, he was it. No. Um, and, and I mean, even though it's those really shitty day, like we're leaving this fucked backpack is like full of like, um, it's real dodgy people. And, um, I remember thinking like, even though I hate it here, like I've got him and then, and then he was suddenly gone. Um, and then my, my dad, um, who's living in England, he, he suddenly died. Like.

two days after that and from cancer, like just out of the blue. And that whole week was just fucked, you know, like it was, it was like, what, like, what am I doing here, right? And for me, it felt as though I was, I was at like a fork in the road, like a crossroads.

Chuck LaFLange (43:51.508)
Yeah.

Joel (44:03.078)
And there was, there was two ways to go that I could see. And there was one follow down same path that I'd done for so long, doing the same self pity shit and, and keep using heavily and, and probably die pretty soon, you know, like I was almost there. Um, or the other option was to, was to seek treatment, try to get some fucking help with this and, and try something different. And so I, I.

Chuck LaFLange (44:03.678)
Yeah.

Joel (44:33.174)
reached out to rehab and like, it was like absolute process. They took months and months. They wanted me to prove engagement to them and arrived to attend this information group every week, pre-entry group they called it because they wanted to see that I was serious about my recovery. And yeah, and that took months. And then I finally got in there. It's a place called Palmerston in Perth. Amazing.

Chuck LaFLange (44:54.313)
Yeah.

Joel (45:02.634)
amazing place and I was in there and realised that, you know, I tried these detox places before and other places and because I hadn't wanted to change, I wasn't ready to change, like nothing had changed. And then I, it was amazing. I was in there for nine months, eight months. And then I realised that I had so much to work on and because I'd been wondering why.

Chuck LaFLange (45:03.198)
Okay.

Joel (45:28.202)
Why has detox not been working for me in the past? Like I'll go in there, I'll do my two weeks, come off the methadone and smack and whatever. And then within a few years to be using again, I never understood. And then through this rehabilitation process where I was able to have all this time, not being fucked up and stop working on things, I was able to recognize that my substance use was the symptom of, of my problems, not my problems. And so he just say,

removing that and putting it aside, I was actually able to address what was, what was driving everything.

Chuck LaFLange (46:07.081)
Wow, man, wow. Eight months, that is a long time by North American standards, right? Like a very long time by North American standards, actually, it really is, to be in a rehab. I think that's great though. Typically it's a 30 or 60 day stay, right? So, you know.

Joel (46:24.995)
Well, how...

Joel (46:30.102)
Yeah, I, yeah, there's a lot of short ones available, right? Um, how, how I look at it is a, is it like a percentage thing? So like, I think of my use all the time. I, I was in, I turned 30 in rehab. So it was about, I started in 19, whatever. Like call it 10 years, right? 10 years of, of solid use. And for me to go into a treatment center and then do 30 days.

Chuck LaFLange (46:30.113)
You were going to say.

Chuck LaFLange (46:35.713)
Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (46:54.453)
Yes.

Joel (46:59.194)
and expect to undo 10 years in 30 days. I'm like, fuck, I need more time. And I know that it's possible and people who do that, they go in and they turn it around. But for me, I needed like, I needed solid amount of time. And then even just the aftercare and stuff that it was rather than just looking at it as like, oh, I'm going to go do 30 days, go in.

Chuck LaFLange (47:05.713)
It just does the math doesn't check out right? Yeah. No, no.

Joel (47:27.362)
do that stuff come out as a healed person. It's like, no, it's going to be a.

Chuck LaFLange (47:31.409)
No, that's just the beginning of the healing, right? Just the beginning of it. Even for myself, who, you know, by the time I got to the Yatra Center here, and I'll talk about them real quick for the audience. Of course, you know about them, but our title sponsor is not Yatra for this episode, and I feel it's important to talk about those roles. So, located here in Krabi, Thailand, where I reside, they're a trauma treatment center. That's what they do. They treat trauma. You get a lot of addictions facilities that treat.

Joel (47:35.471)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (47:59.825)
You know, they talk about specializing in trauma, but they also specialize in 20 other things. So is it really specializing in anything? If you know what I mean. Whereas the Atra Center is all about trauma, 100% about trauma, actually. Actually, when I was there, there was a girl from Australia, a girl from England and myself, and another fellow from England. So it's kind of this whole, it's kind of cool because it's this whole group of people from all over the world. So it's different than your typical rehab or treatment facility, however you want to word that.

I was a year sober. I was a year and 10 days sober when I got there. And my healing journey just began when I walked through that door, really. Like if I go, like if I'm honest with myself, right? You know, and being able to address those things, all the trauma in that. So check them out if you're interested in them guys. It's yatchacenture.com, Y-E- There's my sponsor mentioned. I got to do that anyway. And it seemed like a good time to do it. So I didn't even say I got to do that anyway. I get to do it anyway.

I tell you what man, if I won the lottery, I would send everybody I know. Everybody I know. Addictions or not. I would send them there just from what I got to experience. This is just the most amazing thing, right? And you're right about the percentage thing. How do you expect to do anything? I expect to heal from anything in 30 days, really. And if you're looking at it as the start of a journey, then, you know, I think your odds are much better.

at succeeding in that. So eight months in and then what? Like, and so I don't know how long ago that was for you now Joel, how much, I hate even asking that question to people, how much clean time do you have? Because I think we put too much on it.

Joel (49:40.574)
Oh, interesting. I mean, okay. So I do not refer to. I don't, I don't like the term clean or sober. And so I won't use that term. Um, um, because like, I think it's, um, like if you're for a couple of reasons, right, like saying you're clean, like implies that you're dirty before. Um, and also.

Chuck LaFLange (49:51.495)
I'm there.

Joel (50:08.421)
the measure of our member.

when I was early recovery and I was, I was attending like 12 step meetings and stuff and like that, that measure of like how long you've, you've been offered for, um, we've been healthy for however you want to kind of say it clean, whatever that for me just felt like a lot of, um, pressure and like source of stress, stress for people, um, say they would have a lapse or a relapse, which is all part of the journey, right? And there's, there's no, there's no shame in that.

Chuck LaFLange (50:36.189)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (50:41.345)
I say it's like trying to follow a moth, that like a recovery journey, like there's, it's not linear, it's not even two dimensional, you know? It's like, oh, it's all over the place. My mind most certainly has been, you know, for, yeah, for quite a while, but anyway, continue, yeah.

Joel (50:57.571)
Yeah. Um, so I want to normalize that that's part of it. And I just, I'd hear people, they really reluctant to go back to like a meeting or something because they'd be like, fuck, I don't want to have to tell everyone that I'm, you know,

Chuck LaFLange (51:10.313)
Right there, man. Right there. My first 30 days, and I'm always careful here because I don't want to take away from the power that the 12 step community can have for somebody. And it really does for many, many people. My first 30 days doesn't happen without the rooms. There's no way. There is no way that I made my first 30 days ever as an adult when I'm 46 years old without a substance, without the 12 step rooms. But when I did relapse.

what should have been a day and a half turned into a year. Because I did not, I couldn't go back. I couldn't go back and say zero because of that thing that you're talking about. You just, you nailed it, right? There's that, the ego that's attached to your clean time, the shame that when you go back to zero, whether you, you know, and of course, most of the rooms are quite accepting of people and no, please come back, keep coming back, all the things. But.

That does nothing for the person experiencing it. It's just like, I don't want to go back and say zero. I don't want that white key tag again. I don't, you know, like I don't, I don't want to keep doing that. And it took me a year, almost a year before I finally went back, not into the rooms even. I never did go back to the rooms, but before I finally embraced recovery again, which is typically how I refer to it. My post was 18 months of recovery, not 18 months of clean time. So, you know, it's, you know.

Joel (52:31.342)
Amazing. Yeah. I love, I love that terminology. I think the terminology is such a huge plays a huge part. And it's important to acknowledge that. I hear you and I think like the 12 step meetings have so many beautiful benefits, right in terms of like, yeah, connection, being out having a safe space to share your story with like people who fucking get it that you can you can relate to.

Chuck LaFLange (52:37.17)
That is...

Chuck LaFLange (52:54.878)
Ugh.

Joel (53:01.634)
Um, there's like, there's, there's elements of like providing service, like giving back, um, that purpose. You know what I mean? There's, there's, uh, this is, there's so many amazing things that are happening in those rooms. But then I'm just mindful of some other things that I don't quite, um, gel with. And, um, and for me, like the, the early recovery stages, I, fortunately, I went to rehab that wasn't like strict 12 step. It was like the 12 step.

Chuck LaFLange (53:08.877)
Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Joel (53:31.222)
groups that are there as an option. And we encourage you just to try everything, which I think, like you're saying, you wouldn't have got through your first 30 days without the rooms. And like I needed that early on as well, just to be around people.

Chuck LaFLange (53:43.645)
The fellowship, right? The fellowship is like so important. It's so important. What do you say at a meeting? I need a ride to the meeting tomorrow or on Thursday, whatever. This is an example I use. I'm like, watch what happens, right? Guaranteed, I don't care where you are in the world, somebody's picking you up. You know, and that's just because of that fellowship, right? It's just so important and such a big deal, I think.

Joel (53:49.773)
Yeah.

Joel (54:04.555)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (54:10.569)
I think you can't go wrong with starting your recoveries or knee in the rooms. Whether you move to a different path or not is a different thing, but I think everybody should, I think most people should consider it. Talking indefinites, but yeah.

Joel (54:24.066)
But sure. And I also think there's like humility in accepting, accepting that and going somewhere where you might not enjoy or it might not be for you. But like as, as someone who's early in their recovery journey, I think that can really be beneficial. Like I'm going to go to these things and like, it might, I might not feel like I belong there and whatnot, but like just, just giving things a go. Um, it's a great thing to do. But like for me,

Chuck LaFLange (54:51.998)
Well said.

Joel (54:53.214)
I really, um, what I was getting at before with like doing these meetings early on is I was introduced to the rims and then I, I believed with, with how they kind of speak about everything in there as well. And the, and the steps, I believe that like, that was like everybody in the world who was in recovery was in a 12 step meeting group, right? Which is like my own shit. Um, you know, and I just kind of thought, oh, this is, this is it. This is it. This is all.

Chuck LaFLange (55:18.971)
Yeah, yeah.

Joel (55:23.084)
repay for Rob.

Joel (55:26.874)
have our own language and that we kind of keep to ourselves a bit and like, um, you know, refer to people as like normal people who are people who aren't, who don't have addictions and this kind of stuff. And I thought, Oh, this is all a bit like strange. It doesn't really sit right with me. And like, I don't, I don't enjoy it, but like, Hey, I'm going to trust, I'm going to trust this process. There's a lot of people here. I hear that they're clean time and whatnot. And it's quite, I admire that. It looks like they're doing, we've got some great things going on.

Chuck LaFLange (55:53.609)
Yeah.

Joel (55:56.758)
But I then became a trained, once I completed my rehab program, I became a smart recovery facilitator and. Oh.

Chuck LaFLange (56:07.037)
Oh, well we have another episode to do. Actually then, yes we do, because that's something I wanna do, a full episode on and have not. So, yes. Yeah, so yeah.

Joel (56:15.11)
Also, SmartPay is a beautiful tool.

Chuck LaFLange (56:20.509)
Yeah, yeah, we're gonna talk more about that. Most certainly we are. I wanna do a whole episode about that for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Joel (56:25.806)
sick. I love smart. We can definitely do that. But for me, like, I mean, the whole smart concept is beautiful. I love it. And I'm still using it to this day, for other parts of my career and work and stuff. But for me, in that at that point, I was just introduced to other people that were in recovery, too. And they, for me, like, I remember meeting these guys, and they

Chuck LaFLange (56:48.519)
Mm-hmm.

Joel (56:54.766)
They just seemed like fucking cool. Like they, they seemed to me like, um.

Joel (57:03.094)
Like I don't like the word normal, right? But like it seemed like just normal people as because I just come, I remember my first one, I'd like come from a 12 step meeting and then come to the smart recovery meeting and these guys facilitating it. I was like, fuck like there's no like secret language going on. There's no like identities and calling yourself addicts and alcoholics and all this stuff. And then I didn't even realize they were, they were ex users and then kind of found out halfway through. And I was like, well, like

I was like, it just seemed like they were just living this, this regular life in touch with society. There was no, there was no barrier between like, Oh, I'm a person in recovery. You're, you're a normie. Um, and this guy, they were just like cruising, doing their own thing. I remember speaking to one of the guys running it and I was like, Hey, so you do your ex user, you, you don't go to 12 step and he's like, no, I don't really like 12 step, but I, I like smart. I was like, cool. Like, um, how long have you been?

been, you know, healthy for, and he's like, Oh, you know, a few, few years. And I was like, how long have you been doing smart for? And he goes, Oh, mate, well, smarts designed, you only really need to go between like six and 18 months at the very max kind of thing. Like it's not designed. It's not some program where you're designed to, to be going back every, every week, like a 12 step thing, because like you kind of, you have your addiction, right? You work on it, you work on your stuff and then

Chuck LaFLange (58:24.405)
Mm-hmm.

Joel (58:29.014)
And then when you move on, maybe you want to come back and check in here and there, like whatever's going on. But like it's designed as a, it's like a, a bit of a program rather than just like just coming back all the time. Um, and I just, for me, like something like, there's obviously there's so many benefits to the 12 step of like connecting with those people. And I, I find other ways to find that connection in my life, but just like that freedom, the freedom that I could hear in his voice and like see in his

Chuck LaFLange (58:42.835)
Mm-hmm.

Joel (58:58.07)
being of just like he wasn't tied to this identity of like addicts or, or alcoholic, you know what I mean? It was, it was very much looking at like, um, looking at it as a past behavior. I just made a video about this on my, on my Instagram actually yesterday, but like the, the example I use of like why I find the identity thing unhelpful calling, calling myself an addict or an addict in recovery or an alcoholic.

Chuck LaFLange (59:06.045)
OK, yeah.

Joel (59:27.062)
whatever it may be. I feel like when I was doing that, I was trapped inside a box. I was trapped within this label and I found it hard to connect with people who weren't trapped like that and kind of been running in the same circles. And then I look at it as though like if we think of, if we take away the drugs and it's like you are a cigarette smoker for some time and then you stop smoking cigarettes. Five years down the track.

Chuck LaFLange (59:29.055)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (59:55.232)
Yep.

Joel (59:56.438)
Are you a smoker in recovery? Or is that just an old behavior that was serving you back then and you no longer engage in? And moving away from this identity, I found so much freedom and I was able to explore who I was without this addiction dominating my thoughts and feeling like there's an elephant in the room. And you know what I mean? And then I felt, I never felt so.

Chuck LaFLange (59:59.166)
No.

Chuck LaFLange (01:00:04.841)
Well said, man. Well said. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:00:23.559)
Yeah.

Joel (01:00:25.706)
so connected with my community again, until I released that.

Chuck LaFLange (01:00:28.849)
Yeah, yeah. 100%, I totally understand what you're saying. I totally understand you. And again, once again, this is, and it's not even the first or second time, you've done it a few times. You're articulating thoughts that I've had for some time now in a great way. So I'll be taking some of this with me as we move forward. But yeah, yeah. Okay, so continue. I mean, the smart recovery, what's going on now with you? What's going on in your life?

Joel (01:00:46.731)
Thank you.

Joel (01:00:59.082)
Well, I live a pretty fucking good life. I gotta tell you that. Yeah, so I've been I'm, I'm just very, very health focused now and like very fit. I surf and do lots of yoga. I'm a yoga teacher. I don't teach a whole lot of yoga anymore. But like I did my yoga teaching after my smart recovery course.

Chuck LaFLange (01:01:04.277)
Yeah

Chuck LaFLange (01:01:26.61)
Okay, yep.

Joel (01:01:28.39)
I found just incredibly, incredibly beautiful practice and really helps kind of strengthen my connection with myself. And this is so many amazing mental health benefits that I get from it. But then, yeah, I've been working in, in support for a while, two or three. Oh, you asked me when I kind of, when I got healthy, right? So it was during COVID, when COVID was on, I was in rehab. So

Uh, yeah, October, 2020 is when I got out of rehab.

Chuck LaFLange (01:01:58.265)
Okay. So it's been a few years now. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:02:03.769)
Okay, okay, yeah, so you're two and a half years kind of thing, something like that, three and a half years, three and a half years, yeah. Yeah, yeah, October's the half year for me, so that's why I say right, it's of course my 18 months being, you know, today, so yeah. Good for you, man, good for you. The yoga thing, I did that at Yatra, it's the first time I've ever experienced it. I thought for some reason that yoga was relaxing and it was quickly...

Joel (01:02:05.55)
Yeah.

Joel (01:02:09.239)
I think it's something like that, yeah.

Joel (01:02:20.398)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:02:33.129)
discovered that yoga is not relaxing in any way, shape or form at all. It's not meant to be. It's not supposed to be whoever told you that fucking lied. It is not relaxing. Physically, it's one of the hardest things I've ever done. It's something that I really do want to get back into though. Because it was it was such a challenge for me, right? It was great. It was really good. And

Joel (01:02:45.857)
That's what I tell you to get you in the door.

Chuck LaFLange (01:03:01.457)
For somebody who realistically in 10 years hadn't done physical labor of any kind, any sort of physical activity. I've just been dealing dope and doing dope, right? So like yoga was hard for me, really hard for me to start doing right.

Joel (01:03:16.158)
for sure. I do it every day.

Chuck LaFLange (01:03:18.514)
Ice baths, did you ever try that?

Do you really? Yeah. I love the ice bath. Right. Yeah.

Joel (01:03:25.982)
I love it. Is it? Yeah. I guess it's like, uh, it's that dopamine release. Hey, gives it gives us.

Chuck LaFLange (01:03:28.061)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:03:32.881)
You know what it was for me? Totally different than dopamine. Though there is that, like when I got out, it was like, yeah, right? Like, it just, it feel like one of those like extreme douchebags, like extreme, you know? But for me, I have ADHD in like a very, very acute way, right? Getting that ice bath to make it for that two minutes or three minutes or whatever the goal is that day.

Joel (01:03:35.96)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:04:00.313)
If you focus on anything other than your breath, you're probably not gonna do it. Right, like you need to be focused. Nothing has ever outside of stimulants given me that kind of focus, right? Just the chaos goes away for those few minutes, right? So for me, that was the real attraction to it, was just like, holy shit, man. And relaxing maybe isn't the right word, but my brain gets to relax.

Because if you're not focusing on the breath, good luck. There's 10 bags of ice in there with you. So for me, that was really where it was. It was just like, fuck, this is awesome. And the only thing that ever helped me focus like that before was a shot at meth or a hoot or crack or whatever. For me, it was where the real draw is to the ice baths. Yeah. You know.

Joel (01:04:50.53)
Well, that's amazing. And I think like, um, we're in, in entering recovery, right. And this whole new world, like, there are, there's so many options in terms of what we can do to help us. And in terms of health and wellness. So for you and me, like we love ice baths, but for someone else, that might be their hell, you know? And, but there's so many, they might, they might enjoy going.

to yoga or like starting like, um, like my joy doing a cooking course or something complete. Like there's so many, uh, so different avenues you can go down, but it's just like finding, finding your, your thing and what, what you're into.

Chuck LaFLange (01:05:36.765)
Absolutely, right? Absolutely. Meditation is a good example. I have a really hard time meditating. Again, my brain just doesn't say all the time, right? It's go, go. But that's where the ice bath, it just was just like, boom, right? You know, just like, and really that's about that, boom, that kind of sound effect where everything just goes, okay, right? You know, I just, I absolutely love that.

And I remember like my first one was like, I made it a minute. And by the time I was done, it was like five, six minutes or something like that. You know, and it was just like, and a feeling of accomplishment that, you know, you don't really get a lot when you're selling and doing dope for years and years at a time, right? Like, you know, you never get that feeling of, I just did that, you know, right? And when you do, it's being proud over doing a giant shot or something, or you know what I mean? Like it's just ridiculous sources of fucking, you know, whatever you're looking for there.

Joel (01:06:20.087)
day.

Joel (01:06:28.945)
Thank you.

Joel (01:06:33.922)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:06:36.874)
Yeah. You mentioned before we started recording it, as we're getting to the hour here, so we pass the hour mark now. You've got your Instagram page. You are studying to be an addictions counselor now as well. Is that correct?

Joel (01:06:50.57)
Yeah, doing I'm doing just about to finish my diploma of alcohol and other drug. And I've been working in, in rehabs and a youth mentor and I do some just other kind of support private support work. But I'm moving, I've been writing my book for a while now.

Chuck LaFLange (01:07:03.785)
That's fantastic, man.

Chuck LaFLange (01:07:09.353)
So tell me about the book. I mean, obviously you haven't written it yet, so you can't tell me too much about it, but what's the premise of that? Is it your life story? Is it something else? What's that about?

Joel (01:07:19.314)
Yeah, it's a memoir. So it's, it's the story of this fiction journey, essentially up my life up until now. Um, yeah, so that's, that's going well. It's been on a bit of a hiatus for a few months now, but I'm going to get that going again. I'm pretty, pretty excited for that. Um, and then I'm, I'm releasing more, like I've said to you before, my TikTok, my TikTok has blown up and

Chuck LaFLange (01:07:21.381)
Okay, okay.

Chuck LaFLange (01:07:42.377)
Yes.

Joel (01:07:44.206)
So I'm releasing more videos and I've done like a few talks in like a TAFE and a rehab and support groups and stuff. And I'd like to do speaking on a bigger scale. So more podcasts and finished writing my book, more videos and moving in that direction.

Chuck LaFLange (01:08:06.953)
That's awesome, man. I'm just double checking to make sure that your bio page has, yeah, we've got your TikTok, your Facebook, and your Instagram on it. So, okay, that's good, that's good. On the website, so anybody who's listening, if you go to our website, atwaypodcast.com, and this course will be the most recent episode, episode 236 it will be, there's a whole bio page on Joel in there. You can get links to all of his socials and all the things, right? So, and of course.

when you come back on to talk about Smart Recovery, that episode will be attached to your bio as well. So that's what's really cool about that. That whole page, right, is just, it kind of connects everything together. So, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Listen, Joel, unless there's anything else that you really want to touch on right now, we'll get into our next segment, which is the daily gratitudes. So it's my favorite part of the show. And what you got for some gratitudes today.

Joel (01:08:44.258)
Awesome.

Joel (01:08:59.022)
Sure, let's do it.

Chuck LaFLange (01:09:04.669)
So what you got for some gratitudes? Yeah.

Joel (01:09:06.346)
Oh, sorry, I thought you were about to say something else.

Chuck LaFLange (01:09:08.465)
That was an awkward silence, hey? I'm not even gonna edit that out. Fuck it

Joel (01:09:13.39)
That was the most difficult part of the whole thing.

Joel (01:09:19.33)
What am I grateful for? Well, I'm grateful for the opportunity to be able to share my story with people and to connect with people like yourself and Paris, people that are also in recovery and have experienced some similarities in their story and are having the courage to.

to share this with the world, I think is just like creating such a positive impact. So just being part of that, I'm very, very grateful.

Chuck LaFLange (01:09:51.01)
Yeah.

That's awesome. That's awesome. That's a great gratitude to have. And rest assured, there's more podcasts. We've got a whole network of people amongst us here. So I'm sure that you'll end up on some more here in a short while. But yeah, for myself, I am. Grateful for dumbass or Sonny, my dog, as we want to call him. I'm always grateful for him. He just it gives me a level of connectivity here in Thailand that's unreal.

Joel (01:10:06.722)
Well, I hope so.

Chuck LaFLange (01:10:20.961)
Because how do you not like a dog in a sidecar? Like he's just one of those things where people, I get a chance to talk with people that I wouldn't normally talk with, or you know what I mean? They just wanna come up and see what the hell that's all about. So I do love him. I love him, even if he's a dumb ass. Also grateful to my recovery community. 18 months in now, and it's just, it's crazy, man. We're all over the world. It doesn't matter where in the world you are, if you need resources.

Joel (01:10:31.894)
Thank you.

Chuck LaFLange (01:10:49.093)
somebody, you know, if I don't know somebody in that part of the world, somebody I know knows somebody in that part of the world and it just, you know, we've managed to connect a lot of people with a lot of things and that's a really cool feeling, right? So that don't be a service, but I'm also grateful to every single person who continues to like, watch, comment, share, talk about, do all of the things down at the bottom of the screen that you know you're supposed to do in order to help us spread the message.

So every time you do those things, you're helping me getting a little bit closer to living my best life. My best life is to make a humble living, spreading the message, the message that's this. If you're in active addiction right now, today could be the day. Today could be the day that you start a lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call into detox, go to a meeting, pray, go to church. I don't care. Do whatever it is you gotta do to get that journey started because it is so much better than the alternative. If you have a loved one who's suffering in addiction right now, you have to take the time to listen to our conversation. You have to take one more minute out of your day and text that person.

let them know they are loved. Use the words.

Joel (01:11:46.006)
You are loved.

Chuck LaFLange (01:11:47.913)
That little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings it back.

Boom. Done.