163 - KALEIDOSCOPE WEDNESDAY - EMOTIONAL LEXICON PART 1

Chuck (00:02.07)
Hello listeners and watchers. Welcome to another edition of the Kaleidoscope Wednesday on the Ashes to Awesome podcast. I'm your host, Chuck LaFlandre, and with me in virtual studio today is of course Ryan Bathgate. He's back from holidays, which I guess the listeners didn't even really know because we got everything done ahead of time this time, didn't we, right? So how you doing today, Ryan?

RBK Kaleidoscope (00:20.659)
I'm pretty good. I mean, you know, you spend a week out in the bush and it has a way of wearing you down. So I'm kind of, you know, unplugged from the world completely. No internet out there. So, you know, it's nice, but it also has a buildup of anxiety, I guess, when you finally get back into reality and realize everything that's ahead of you, you know.

Chuck (00:33.614)
I know. Yep.

Chuck (00:46.43)
Yeah, you don't have any less work to do, you've just got less time to do it now. It's, you know, right?

RBK Kaleidoscope (00:49.387)
Yeah, yeah, which I definitely feel that pressure, yeah.

Chuck (00:54.626)
Well, I gotta tell you, buddy, I have a new, I've been using the word reverence a lot lately, so because of you, but, for our relationship. And it's funny because we talk every day, right? I haven't talked to you in a fucking week, and I haven't talked to you in a week, I gotta tell you, right? There was a void there, not just because of the friendship, but because I need my free billable hours, man.

RBK Kaleidoscope (00:59.407)
Ha ha

RBK Kaleidoscope (01:07.439)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (01:21.598)
He's like, you know, I'm not gonna lie, right? It's been kind of, you know, I'm not out here, you know, grabbing it at strands or nothing, but it's, yeah, most certainly. I did miss your presence in my life there for a week, you know, right? So, yeah, not that that's something, go ahead.

RBK Kaleidoscope (01:22.403)
Heheheheheheh

RBK Kaleidoscope (01:36.835)
Yeah, it's reciprocal. I mean, you know, like, you know, we get used to things and, you know, the old saying, you don't know what you got till it's gone. I did have an itch to get to work and, you know, to get back into this. And then it just like...

Chuck (01:52.366)
to record and... Ha ha ha.

RBK Kaleidoscope (02:00.479)
I had to remind myself many, many times that I need to get as much rest and relaxation as possible because from September to June it's grind time.

Chuck (02:09.95)
Yeah, right, right. Well, and it's gonna be, we got some big projects in the go. We're not gonna get into details, but you're gonna be grinding harder this year than you did last year, I can tell you that much. Right? So that's just the way that goes, right? So, yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (02:17.431)
Yep. Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (02:22.563)
Yeah, in some sadistic way I'm looking forward to it, which I don't know what that says about me.

Chuck (02:27.363)
Ah, you know, right? Are you looking forward to the raw work? Are you looking forward to working towards a result?

RBK Kaleidoscope (02:35.295)
Um, both. You know, like, let's be honest man, I'm a human being and I have a... I like having an audience.

Chuck (02:37.685)
Yeah? Yeah.

Chuck (02:44.718)
Thanks for watching!

Yes, yes, yes.

RBK Kaleidoscope (02:48.855)
And there's something I've learned is that there's a lot that goes on between these years and it's nice to be able to get it out and have people actually live. And you know, it's like the big fear of rejection and everything, because I think I'm crazy. That whole thing, well, I didn't care anymore. You know. Yeah, yeah. It's nice. But no, it was good. I mean, lots of pool time, lots of kids time, lots of hammock time.

Chuck (03:04.967)
Yep. I just had some validation now, right? So you know, yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (03:17.823)
And just did a lot of laughing. And I think, can't ask for much more than that, really. Yeah.

Chuck (03:23.294)
No kidding, eh? No kidding. So, yeah, yeah. I do want to speak to something else here, before we get going on what is to be the first of a three-part series on emotional lexicon. So, today, if I had to pick something off that wheel, you know what? What a case study that is for this, right?

Definitely sad, right? It's definitely sad. Really sad actually. So overdose awareness day is on Thursday. Two days before that was Tuesday. My friend Miles, come over, my very good friend Miles, he helped me hang the thing for this green screen back here behind me. And his brother came along with him who, we aren't.

RBK Kaleidoscope (04:00.539)
Mm.

RBK Kaleidoscope (04:11.721)
Right?

Chuck (04:17.826)
great friends, but certainly Scotty, his brother, you know, we have this kind of funny relationship and I can tell a quick story about him. This is my show and he's, whatever. When I first got back to Calgary, I went to live with some very good friends of mine and families, like in their family or whatever. And then when I met Miles, I walked in, I thought he was my good friend, Dan, actually, because it looks a bunch of friends, and they're playing guitar, and the whole family's gifted like that.

RBK Kaleidoscope (04:28.251)
Mm-hmm, of course.

Chuck (04:42.666)
Turns out Miles is a great guy, he's a family guy. We just, we kind of clicked right away, right? So I said, okay, cool. I got a normal friend in Calgary, that's kind of nice, you know, while I get, start to get reacquainted with everybody. And then his brother is in the house one day and, you know, he's a little rougher around the edges, but I didn't notice anything, you know, too untoward about him. And he said he was going to the store, so I gave him a hundred dollar bill and said, you get me smokes. Almost like three hours later, four hours later, he's still not back. I'm like, where's this guy, right?

RBK Kaleidoscope (04:50.565)
I'm sorry.

Chuck (05:10.11)
And at no point by this time, I'm like, this is their family, I know he's coming back. I know he's coming back because if he doesn't, my buddy's sister, who actually, it's her house that we're all in, she'll kill him if he does that to me. So I'm not even worried about it, right? But then it's like five hours and six hours. So I get a little stressed out. Turns out eight hours later, he walks back in with my money. What I find out in that time, he's a fentanyl addict. So everyone's like, you gave him money? You can't do that, good luck.

That's gone.

He did come back with my money. And I remember thinking, what a shit thing that is that I completely had judged that situation based on other people's experiences with him. But turns out he's not a bad guy. And never once has Scott wronged me. So the other day, when Miles came down to help me with this green screen, he texted me and said, oh by the way, Scott's with me. And if I'm honest, at first I said, uh, you know, uh, you know.

RBK Kaleidoscope (05:54.743)
Mm-hmm.

RBK Kaleidoscope (06:00.271)
Hmm.

Chuck (06:11.714)
I said, not a lot of room in here, buddy, and there's not. But then I was like, oh fuck, the guy's never wronged me. I had to remind myself yet again, even though this guy's never done anything wrong to me, never wronged me, why would I be treating him like less than a person, right? So we came in, we had some good times.

Two days later, he's died. Another fucking fan.

RBK Kaleidoscope (06:33.924)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (06:35.518)
And it's just... It's a shit sandwich, man. It is, it's, you know, which I just, it was a heavy, heavy week last week was for me. I put together a couple of compilation videos and things for our memorial mums and I made a lot. I made a lot of individual graphics. And you know me, I'm a crybaby, right? I'm an empathetic guy and it was a heavy, heavy week for me. And so to end it like that, it really sucked.

It just really sucked. And my heart goes out to Miles and Karen and Danny and everybody else in that family. And I never met his mom, but she's around too and his other brother. My heart goes out to all of you. And I hope I can make it up there on Wednesday for the service. And if not, know that my thoughts and as close to prayers as I ever get are with you.

Chuck (07:26.135)
I did want to speak to Scott. So, yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (07:29.131)
Yeah, my condolences to the family, of course.

Chuck (07:32.746)
Yeah, yeah, of course, right. So unfortunately, it's all too common of a reality these days and just is what it is, right? So that said, okay, moving on, moving on. I just wanted to pay some respect because we have a platform that we can do that on.

RBK Kaleidoscope (07:42.313)
Mm-hmm.

RBK Kaleidoscope (07:50.264)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (07:54.242)
What are we gonna do next? Oh yeah, I guess it's time to get on to talking about an emotional lexicon. So why don't you start that off the way you do. I could tell you how I want you to start it off or you could just start it off. The results are gonna be the same thing anyway. So yeah, let's go that way.

RBK Kaleidoscope (08:08.371)
Okay, well, um... You know, it took me a while to figure out... How... Why...

Emotional intelligence is such a big deal and I'm not even I'm kind of disappointed myself for it taking so long Just because it's so it simply is Our emotions are probably the most human authentic part of our experience And it is so I mean, you know, I have a lot of theories around this that you know that

aren't always founded in the science maybe or maybe they aren't and haven't come across it. But I mean, when I think about what it is to be human, it is to be connectable. And we did a series on connectability. Now, if you really think about what it is that's evolved us for 125,000 years, it's not our cognitive abilities.

But it is that, and I know we talked about this in the connection series, it is the ability to use emotion or use connection as a conduit to transmit emotion in order to create that authentic evolutionary connection. Okay? Now, if we think about that...

Chuck (09:23.08)
Okay. Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (09:28.355)
We think of all, like, okay, I'm just gonna talk about how this works in our behavior development, especially the maladaptive behavior development as coping strategies. So if I have learned through...

Chuck (09:39.743)
Okay.

RBK Kaleidoscope (09:46.935)
my development as a human being that when my limbic system is evolved, it starts to take memory form around 4 or 5 years old. And consequently, our memory system and our emotion systems are coupled together in the same area called the limbic system. Okay, so...

Chuck (09:59.543)
Yeah.

Chuck (10:08.59)
Okay.

RBK Kaleidoscope (10:11.959)
I always used to, I played baseball and lose my mind like a seven year old. I would come out of that being like, why am I such a child? The reason is because when I experienced competition, I was a little guy that loved sports and wasn't very good at it. I had to put my, if I'm not doing something with my heart, then I'm not doing something. When I experienced competition and the expectation disappointment relationship shows up, I react

and do an action again, like I'm seven years old, and I throw temper tantrums, and I yell at umpires, and I get kicked out of baseball games. You know what I mean? And I couldn't, and I'm trying to figure out how that happens. The way that happens is because I have never really processed that competitive feeling into how it attaches to a coping behavior and what that outcome becomes. So if we look at like, if I look at how, you know, like,

Chuck (10:50.027)
Yep, yep.

Chuck (10:58.156)
Mm-hmm.

RBK Kaleidoscope (11:11.153)
street and the next thing you know I am buying crack. How did that happen? And so typically what happens is an emotion happens because I have zero emotional intelligence. I have no idea what that emotion is. I have no lexicon around that emotion and so it automatically bypasses the parts of my brain that I need to be rational and reasonable, the cerebral cortex, and goes right into an action or a coping mechanism.

Chuck (11:33.006)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Chuck (11:39.051)
Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (11:41.053)
The less my emotional intelligence is, the more capable I am to being overwhelmed by that emotion. So if fear is a lack of information, if I don't know what the emotion is, then it becomes fear. And that fear turns into fight or flight, and that fight or flight becomes coping mechanism, which is whatever that strategy might be. Okay, so if it's to smoke crack, then I'm going to have an emotion, be overwhelmed by it, and go smoke crack without even having any...

Chuck (11:49.642)
Okay. Yeah.

Chuck (11:59.918)
Okay. Yep.

RBK Kaleidoscope (12:11.973)
There's no plan, there's no weighing out my options, there's no rational ability. It is just bam to bam. You know? Exactly. And so then you're off. And so that's when I learned about neurofeedback response, it really dawned on me how important emotional intelligence really is. And so...

Chuck (12:18.895)
No, that's that, that neural loop has been activated and right. Yeah.

Chuck (12:33.386)
Right? So it almost acts as an interference in there. What's the word, what's the verbiage for that, right?

RBK Kaleidoscope (12:41.292)
Well, it stops us from bypassing the parts of our brain that have our identity, our ability to be reasonable, our ability to make decisions. And so we become impulsive and out of a fight or flight response mode. And when we're in fight or flight response, we don't have access to all these parts. So, but if...

Chuck (12:50.035)
Okay.

Chuck (12:56.662)
Yeah.

Chuck (13:00.338)
all those things. So what I was asking is the term for what having this emotional lexicon does for you, like for blocking that from happening, right? How does that, you know, from the bad happening, is there a term for that or is it just, this is what it does? You know?

RBK Kaleidoscope (13:14.819)
Well, you know, we use EQ.

Chuck (13:18.11)
Okay, so your EQ would be what stops you from your IQ. Yeah, okay, yep.

RBK Kaleidoscope (13:21.099)
Yeah, an EQ stands for emotional quotient, which an IQ stands for intelligent quotient. Right. So, why don't we...

Chuck (13:25.692)
Okay.

Chuck (13:29.899)
Yeah. Okay.

Chuck (13:36.406)
You made a really good analogy about this once with them, the chimps.

RBK Kaleidoscope (13:40.931)
Yeah, yeah, actually, yeah, so that, yeah, yeah.

Chuck (13:41.878)
Right? Yeah, yeah. I think about that all the time. All the time. If you have, if your EQ is too high and your IQ is too low, you are a battle-obsessed chimp. Right? Right, right? Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (13:53.259)
Yes, yes, yeah, especially and like couple that with being a hypersensitive personality in HSP And that's a it's a nasty cocktail. So you're always in a reactive state. Nothing is proactive Okay so but so

Chuck (13:59.67)
Yeah. Right, yeah.

Yes, yes, right, so. But to counter that, people with too much IQ and not enough EQ, what's the result?

RBK Kaleidoscope (14:11.683)
Well, that's like every recovery community is just littered with people that are full of high IQ. It's just like a motor. Like, if you have one part of your motor not working to its capacity, the other part has to pick it up. You know, just based on what a complex system is. You know, every bondable agent within a complex system affects the other bondable agents. So, that's why we get burnout or we get loneliness and we get depression.

Chuck (14:13.582)
That's it.

Chuck (14:26.287)
Yeah? Yeah.

Chuck (14:35.89)
Yep.

RBK Kaleidoscope (14:41.877)
We are not in balance within our own organic system. So people with high emotional intelligence recognize their own emotions and they recognize emotions in others. They also use emotional information to guide thinking and behavior. And they can discern between different feelings and label them appropriately. So in other words, you can adjust your emotions to adapt to your environment, whether it be social or physical or whatever. Does that make sense?

Chuck (14:46.125)
Okay.

Chuck (14:52.15)
Yes.

Chuck (15:00.883)
Okay.

Chuck (15:08.43)
Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep

RBK Kaleidoscope (15:11.679)
Okay, so... If I was gonna... Should we try and define it?

Chuck (15:18.834)
I think so. I think it's a great place to, you know, we were talking about that pre-recording, decided to let you go your way. But I think it's a really good way to start it so that they know what they're getting into, right? Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (15:28.24)
Okay. Okay, let's define. Let's define. Let's use a definition that... There's these two guys. So there's some big, big names in the emotional intelligence world.

There's a guy named Peter Salovey and John Mayer. No, not your body's a wonderland, John Mayer. Okay, so they define it as the ability to monitor one's own and other people's emotions, to discriminate between different emotions and label them appropriately, and to use emotional information to guide thinking and behavior. Okay, so that's from Salovey and Mayer. Now, Goldman is the guy.

Chuck (15:49.694)
Yeah.

Chuck (16:02.945)
Okay.

Chuck (16:07.15)
Okay.

RBK Kaleidoscope (16:10.647)
He's like the... Daniel Goleman is the guy... He came out with a book in 1995 that just like... Like the term has been used since 1964, but in 1995 he came out with a book that was just like New York bestseller called Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman. And that's been the benchmark ever since. Yes, yes, exactly. And so, you know, so...

Chuck (16:28.094)
Okay, okay. And that's where something like the feeling wheel here would come from.

RBK Kaleidoscope (16:37.315)
When I started learning about this stuff, like first thing I learned about this was a guy named Martin Boober. And he's got this thing called the I-it-I-thou relationship.

Chuck (16:42.574)
Okay.

Chuck (16:48.18)
Okay.

RBK Kaleidoscope (16:48.891)
Okay, so I-it means me as a person with dreams, hopes, goals, and experiences. And what happens is, when I become an I-it relationship, I don't see that in the other person. They are an object. So they don't have those things. It's really easy for me to be angry with them, to fight them, to talk shit about them, you know what I mean? But, so in the I-thou relationship, you're accepting the mirror.

Chuck (17:04.166)
Okay. Yep. Okay.

Chuck (17:13.228)
Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (17:19.125)
that person is a human being as well. And so I used to practice this by going to Starbucks and talking to cops, because I just never had a really good history with them. They were the one entity that I always othered. I always created a it relationship with them. And so what I learned is like, I asked them questions like, how's your day going? They're like, oh man, it's a 10 hour shift, and you know, it's a long day, can't wait for vacation, and you know, like all this other stuff.

Chuck (17:28.243)
Okay.

Chuck (17:33.869)
Yep.

Chuck (17:39.112)
Okay.

Chuck (17:46.647)
Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (17:48.985)
to see that there's humanness within everybody. So relative to how emotional intelligence works with other human beings, it's how we create evolutionary relationships that help us grow within ourselves by being in connection with other people. Does that make sense to you?

Chuck (18:05.866)
Yep, it absolutely does, yeah, 100%.

RBK Kaleidoscope (18:08.643)
So then what I did was I took a feeling wheel, just like the one you have in the back, and I put it on my fridge. Before I would leave the door every morning to go to school, I'd pick a word off that wheel, and then I would try to use it all day within my vocabulary, my lexicon. No, no, I picked one. One at a time.

Chuck (18:21.032)
Okay.

Chuck (18:25.47)
Okay, so randomly or did you go through them? Or was there, okay, but like in order? Tomorrow you know what's good, you just kind of randomly picked one for that day? Yeah? Otherwise you'd be like angry for a whole week or like sad for a whole week or, you know what I mean? Okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, okay, gotcha, yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (18:33.391)
Nope.

Well, what I did is I kind of went color to color. No, no, no. I would switch my colors. So I would start, if you look at your wheel, I would start at always the base color, so the base emotions. And I would look at, today I'm gonna learn about being peaceful and content. Okay, and then what's after content? It's uh, introspect, no.

Chuck (18:50.226)
Okay, yep. In the middle, yep.

Chuck (18:55.97)
being peaceful, alright? Okay.

Chuck (19:02.987)
I, you know what, this is mirrored on me too. I can't even read it. You'll have to read it, yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (19:07.703)
Let me see. It is... relaxed.

So anyways, I would go through my day and I would start using that word. And then what would happen is, like, outside of my awareness, I was starting to, as the scale developed, I could see how people, I could feel how people felt without using the words that we typically use. And it just, like, dawned on me. Then I read this book called The Globalization of Addiction by Bruce Alexander, and it was like, holy shit, like, emotional intelligence is the enemy of capitalism.

Chuck (19:37.086)
Yes, yeah.

Chuck (19:46.858)
Yes, yes, yes.

RBK Kaleidoscope (19:48.089)
You know, and so, you know, we learned so much about LaSalle discovering the Mississippi and the War of 1812 in school, but no, one time did I ever have a feeling wheel in my, in any of my textbooks. Because, right, it is, it's, my belief is it's by design.

Chuck (20:03.642)
No sir, nope. We've talked about this a few times in the show, right? Where it's ridiculous, right? You know, with the benefit of that knowledge anyway, it sure is, you know?

RBK Kaleidoscope (20:14.9)
If I have a high emotional exocon, what comes with that is a plethora of intrinsic resource, including self-worth, self-esteem, self-respect, which makes me the worst consumer around. If I don't feel like I need something extrinsic to make me feel complete, then I am a bad consumer.

Chuck (20:26.072)
Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (20:32.843)
So I kind of looked at that and then I was like, holy shit, like, you know, I was looking into the whole disease model and then I'm not going to get into that. It makes sense to me that addiction has become a maladaptive behavior result of low emotional intelligence, easily overwhelmed, and needing to cope with being overwhelmed because I don't know what I'm feeling. I can't express it. Okay, so.

Chuck (20:59.106)
Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (21:01.507)
So when I think about my life today...

The difference being having a level of emotional intelligence that is always under construction. I'm always trying to get better at that because I don't like anybody. I get overwhelmed. I react. Hopefully, I can be accountable about that. I manage to build prison walls because of my lack of emotional intelligence. That's usually why I create my own oppression because I don't know how I'm feeling and it comes out as ego or anger or something manufactured to protect myself from being hurt.

Chuck (21:34.922)
Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (21:35.929)
And I don't even know what it is. So there's a guy named Eugene Gendlin who does this thing called focus. It's a six-step Yeah, I talked about that before and it's a way to get in touch with your body and your body actually holds a lot of wisdom around how you feel and And so when you try these words on and you say the word that your body's experiencing, it's called a felt sense Everything shifts you can feel it. There's no guess. It's just a knowing. It's like that's exactly how I feel You know, it's not like I might feel like it. No, no, it's you either feel it or you don't

Chuck (21:42.538)
Yep, yep, yep.

Chuck (21:49.982)
Okay.

Chuck (21:59.722)
Yeah.

Chuck (22:05.922)
Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (22:06.469)
And so, I guess, you know, coming into that, you know, it helps certainly being a counselor, and I can understand how people are feeling based on the words they choose. Language dictates lens. I can tell how you're seeing the world based on the words you choose to use to describe whatever. And usually, it is outside of your own awareness how you even feel. Right. Just about every session.

Chuck (22:26.526)
Okay, yep. I was just gonna say, yeah, right, how often do you surprise somebody with that knowledge? Yeah, no kidding, eh? Yep, hmm, hmm.

RBK Kaleidoscope (22:35.903)
Oh yeah, like when I reframe that through an emotional lexicon, they're like, oh my god, like that's exactly it. That's exactly how I feel.

Chuck (22:43.824)
So being a counselor just isn't being somebody good to talk to. There's actually some meat on those bones too, right? So, you know. Yep, yep, yep.

RBK Kaleidoscope (22:48.191)
Yeah, yeah, and a lot of hours of training and trying shit on trying shit out. So I mean

RBK Kaleidoscope (22:57.976)
You know, in order to understand the importance of this, we have to understand the importance of human evolution. And how we got here is so far, like where we are in capitalist North America is so far away from where we should be as human beings that it's created this void. Within that void is where society has put this need to make a lot of money, have something

Chuck (23:16.544)
Okay.

RBK Kaleidoscope (23:25.469)
your business card, your T4 needs to say a certain thing, you need to drive a certain thing, you need to look a certain way, you need to eat certain food, you know what I mean? Like all these rules that have come about when really it's just like you know, how do I feel about that? Like what a question and how often do we stop and think about how I experience something you know instead of like more often than not if I'm if I'm low on my intrinsic resource of like self-worth then I'm more worried about what you think I think about it than I am what I think about it.

Chuck (23:39.882)
Yeah.

Chuck (23:53.962)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course, of course it is.

RBK Kaleidoscope (23:55.789)
oppressive state. So really, I mean, we've only been at this since really 1995. Yeah, and it's not a lot of time.

Chuck (24:07.046)
Okay, that's crazy, eh? That's crazy, yeah, right? And we're really not at it yet either, because they're still not showing your kids in school a feeling wheel, are they? I don't know, I don't have kids in school, but I'm assuming they don't.

RBK Kaleidoscope (24:18.643)
I know my kids have one on the fridge. And we use it, yeah. Okay, so the idea is, you want emotional... Yeah, please do. Yeah?

Chuck (24:21.262)
Of course your kids do, right? Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, yeah.

actually you know what I'm gonna interrupt you there. Dan over at Hard Knocks Talks, come down to the end of the interview and he says if there's one thing you could tell or one thing you could, you know, and I said I wish I would have understood the importance of an emotional lexicon. Right, like really understood it. I started to get it, but it wasn't until you and I started working together that I really understood it. And...

RBK Kaleidoscope (24:44.251)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (24:51.595)
Donna was saying that she was gonna draw a feeling wheel up on their whiteboard for them. That's kind of how the interview ended. So, right. So, yeah. Yeah. So, yep.

RBK Kaleidoscope (24:56.463)
Ha ha, good. Yeah, it's funny, I have clients that are like, they live by the feeling wheel now. You know, like, every time that they have a discussion, they bring the feeling wheel out. What are you feeling? You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, it's pretty funny. So, yeah, yeah. Okay, so, not having emotional intelligence makes us reactive.

Chuck (25:04.511)
Yeah.

Chuck (25:09.878)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Get the dog to pick something. And you don't really have to. Yeah.

Chuck (25:24.129)
Yes.

RBK Kaleidoscope (25:24.291)
When we're reactive, we're recreating our history, which means we don't have access to the growth of the possibility of tomorrow. It also means we're going to be having all these behaviors that are old and stale, and outside of our awareness, we're going to be executing these behaviors without any choice. And when we don't have choice, we have oppression. Opposite of freedom is oppression.

Chuck (25:53.127)
100. Yep.

RBK Kaleidoscope (25:53.576)
So if I'm not choosing my reality, then I'm living in someone else's, which makes me a hostage of that reality.

Chuck (25:56.988)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (26:01.945)
Yes.

RBK Kaleidoscope (26:02.839)
And that is, I mean, eventually it's too much and we need to cope. And like, you know, people, people with substance use disorder, at least it's up front in their face and they know what the issue is and then they know they can, that they know that there's resources to do that. Now that doesn't speak to, you know, the families, which, you know, you know, I talk a lot about, but the families, I don't, I don't believe there's enough resources for how families navigate this space. And I think that's a really important thing to start looking at. Yeah. Um, but so let me talk about the other side.

Chuck (26:21.796)
Yeah.

Chuck (26:27.466)
It sure is not. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (26:32.633)
that. Yeah. Okay.

Chuck (26:33.45)
I'll interrupt you again there, sorry Ryan. Just the other day I said to somebody, 90% of the resources that go into addiction, like to recovery, go into 10% of the people it affects. Right? If you think about the families, right, who get no, basically no resources, right? Nothing quantifiable anyway, right? So the one person that's affecting 10 gets all these, and I'm not saying we should have less resources for people in addiction that are suffering. I'm not saying that.

RBK Kaleidoscope (26:44.591)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (27:01.94)
No.

Chuck (27:02.102)
I'm saying that 90% of the resources that go to that suffering go to the one person. The other 10 people that affects, the people that love him, they got nothing.

RBK Kaleidoscope (27:12.535)
Yeah, and no one to talk to, nowhere to go. I mean, you know, like the amount of phone calls that I talk to with family members is probably like 80% of the phone calls that I have. And it's always the same questions of how, you know, how do I deal with this? And is this wrong and is that wrong? And I don't know what to do. I'm scared, I'm afraid, I feel alone.

Chuck (27:25.006)
I have no doubt about that whatsoever, none.

Chuck (27:29.97)
So.

Yep.

Chuck (27:37.134)
This is kind of, well it's not off topic, it's bang on topic what we're talking about in the moment, just not to the whole emotional lexicon thing. But something that got me fired up, I can tell you. We have a guest that's going to be on the show soon, Destiny, she's gonna be bringing on her 17 year old son. So that'll be a first for the show, right? And it's something that I've been looking for since we started doing this family thing, right? A parent-child combination, but there's a lot of things that have to make that like.

RBK Kaleidoscope (27:50.895)
Mm.

Chuck (28:06.074)
for that to work, there's a lot of qualifiers, right? There can't be resentment, because that's not what the show's about, there's enough resentment when it comes to addiction and all the things, so I don't want that. Kid has to be smart enough, he's gotta be okay with doing it, he can't be in shame, like all these things, otherwise you're not gonna help anybody, right? You have to find like this healthy balance. It's a perfect storm, and I think I found it. So I'm really excited to do that. However, this one, they have been, is that your phone again?

RBK Kaleidoscope (28:08.727)
Yep. Nope.

RBK Kaleidoscope (28:16.059)
shame.

RBK Kaleidoscope (28:20.347)
Yeah, yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (28:29.123)
Yeah, me too.

RBK Kaleidoscope (28:37.743)
Huh.

Chuck (28:39.318)
That's right too, you can't hear it when that happens. I can hear it. Whatever, we got background music for a second. Oh yeah, clear as day, all the twang. Anyway.

RBK Kaleidoscope (28:43.22)
You can hear that? Yeah. Yeah, it's Jason Isbell.

RBK Kaleidoscope (28:51.803)
I can't even reach it. Do you want me to go turn it off? Alright. Okay.

Chuck (28:53.91)
No, it'll shut off on its own, right? She's, her husband, you know, has been in it for a long time. They've been apart for a very long time. And, you know, he's kind of in and out of the life. He's done some really mean things, but nothing horrible, horrible. Like, violently, anyway. And...

She decides that like he's come to Calgary where she is, kind of followed her here from eight hours away, and she decided to let him come stay while he tried to get sober. She has to keep this a secret from her friends and family who have threatened to never speak to her again if she does. Can you fucking, sorry. Can you imagine they are threatening to punish the person for loving too much?

RBK Kaleidoscope (29:33.313)
Wow. Yeah.

Chuck (29:42.034)
And for, you know, she didn't grow up with a dad. She was, you know, very, you know, she's very aware of that and, you know, wants to make every opportunity for that, for her kids to have their dad. If you can imagine saying those words to somebody, and it was actually, I had an argument with somebody online about this and said, none of those people are doing that for this person, for this mom. They're doing it for themselves. That is 100% about them not wanting to hear about it anymore.

RBK Kaleidoscope (30:03.064)
No.

Absolutely, 100%.

Chuck (30:10.026)
and they're not friends at all, and they can fuck right off anyway, as far as I'm concerned. Right, like it's just, you know, yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (30:12.695)
Yeah, and that's what it is. They're not thinking about the wellbeing of anyone other than themselves. Yeah, yeah, no.

Chuck (30:18.378)
That's what it's masked as, but no, it's not. And I think how many people go through that, how many people suffer this alone, all those phone calls you get, right? Not even a small fraction, portion of a fraction, right? Like, you know, of how many people are out there right now dealing with this shit alone because there's people like that telling them that they can't, you know, they can't talk to them about it or whatever.

RBK Kaleidoscope (30:42.953)
Mm-hmm. This is a moral model in action.

Chuck (30:45.302)
You know, yeah, 100% it is, and it's wrong, and it's just messed up. And I challenge anybody to argue a point for that, for that. You can make a point about that whole starving about thing, like the person in addiction. At least I understand where that comes from. I can see the logic, even if I don't agree with it. There's just no fricking reason in the world to punish the spouse or partner or child or parent of somebody that's in addiction. There's just not, right? You know, yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (30:48.92)
Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (31:11.611)
100% there's not and it's not about it's not about them. Yeah.

Chuck (31:16.054)
No, no, so I'm really looking forward to having that conversation and bringing that mentality to light and maybe changing a few hearts and minds all in a way. Right, you know, it's a, I hope so, man, I hope so. You know, so, yeah, yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (31:24.151)
I hope so, yeah. I wanted, I just wanted to touch on, do you mind if I switch gears back to...

Chuck (31:32.475)
No, let's get back to what we were supposed to be doing here.

RBK Kaleidoscope (31:34.539)
I just like, you know, we read that definition by Salovey and Meyer, or Meyer. But I think to just look at what the abilities of it are, I think they're important. And I think that you can break it down into four practicable abilities, which are perceiving emotions, using emotions, understanding emotions, and managing emotions. Okay? So

And what that means is like, you know, active listening, empathy. And when we practice those things, it really reflects our ability to become more intelligent beings. Because without emotional intelligence, even if you're the smartest cognitive intelligent person in the world, you're still at 50% of intelligence.

So we are vastly incomplete and you can guarantee that there's burnout somewhere within that organic human system. So we reflect the ability to join intelligence, empathy, and use emotions to enhance thought and our understanding of personal dynamics. All right?

Chuck (32:26.547)
Right?

Chuck (32:33.006)
questions.

Chuck (32:51.222)
Yep, I'm here with you. Sorry, my mic was muted for a quick second there, yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (32:53.323)
Okay. Oh. Alright. Well, so, um, basically, this is the answer to evolving ourselves into a realm of potential that we don't even know existed.

Chuck (33:08.491)
Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (33:08.547)
by creating relationships that are rich with authenticity and empathy and understanding. And really, and it's also like, when we have emotional intelligence, I know when fear exists. I know when ego is showing up because I will feel disconnection. Emotions are connectable. If it's not connectable, it's not an emotion. That's why I don't believe anger is an emotion. Because it's not connectable.

Chuck (33:18.142)
Right?

Chuck (33:36.898)
Connectable, define that, define like a, define connectable.

RBK Kaleidoscope (33:39.221)
To feel connectable? Wow, how do I put words to that? To feel...

Chuck (33:43.05)
Like about a specific emotion, right? Like anger's not connectable. How do you mean that, right? So yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (33:46.551)
well no it's okay so let's just say like you know go to the feeling that i'm feeling you know frustrated uh... in that you just do that's the patient so what do i do you take this frustration i uh... projected into anger and get mad at somebody you know that's keeping them away from my vulnerability

Chuck (34:05.154)
Okay.

Chuck (34:08.538)
Okay, okay, yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (34:10.247)
But if I talk about joy, this beautiful experience of being with my daughter, yes, it's very connectable. And so, same with depression. That's not a feeling. Depression is a diagnosis. And people say I feel depressed. And to me, it always irks me because I'm like...

Chuck (34:14.786)
That's connectable, right? Yeah, right, yeah.

Chuck (34:25.789)
Yeah.

Chuck (34:30.279)
But you can't irk them for not having an emotional lexicon that they haven't learned, right?

RBK Kaleidoscope (34:34.371)
Yes, but it does with me. It goes to show where we're at in the social tapestry relative. And like, because people aren't, we're not being taught this. Because to be depressed is, if someone with clinical depression has somebody come along, it's like saying I'm addicted to, you know, like this chocolate's so addictive. You know what I mean? That pisses me off, you know? Yeah, it does. Yes, with the coffee, yes. Yes.

Chuck (34:37.918)
Fair enough, fair enough, yeah, okay, yeah, I can dig that.

Chuck (34:47.031)
Yep.

Chuck (34:53.831)
Yeah. Does it actually get you like, remember Lisa ended a coffee shop campaign, right? And I think about that sometimes, because you hear it all the time. This is stuff sedictive, this is whatever, right? And once or twice I've been like, somebody should tell them that that's pretty off color. But then I think, I don't want to be a part of that woke culture. So I mean, not that I don't want to be a part of that far, you know.

RBK Kaleidoscope (35:12.32)
It is and it's...

Chuck (35:21.35)
extreme woke culture, I should say, right?

RBK Kaleidoscope (35:21.435)
I, you know, and I'm also in a place in my life where I'm not like, don't say that, but you know, but to me it's like, man, you know, there's people that are really going through it, that addiction has just devastated everything in their life, and you're comparing it to your need for expensive shoes, like, yeah.

Chuck (35:26.709)
Yeah, right.

Chuck (35:31.534)
But yeah, right? But you know what? It's gonna hurt your feelings, not theirs. That's the thing too, right? You do this in the defense of somebody else, not because it's actually upsetting you about you, or you know what I mean? So then is it, I don't know, right? It's a funny, those are funny waters to navigate. I just thought I'd pull that out of you for a second, right? But yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (35:45.384)
No. No, no, yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (35:53.332)
It is, yeah.

Yeah, so I mean, I think we'll probably delve into those aspects in the next segment, the perceiving, using, understanding, and managing emotions. But I will say, I did my thesis for grad school on how mental health professionals are affected by working with mental health clients and substance use disorder clients.

Chuck (36:03.22)
Yeah.

Yep.

Chuck (36:22.368)
Okay.

RBK Kaleidoscope (36:25.257)
did not expect is that those who have any training or any exposure to emotional intelligence and the lexicon have a much better way of handling high stress situations. They are much less likely to burn out. They make much better decisions in their personal lives. They drink less. They use less narcotics. They have less alcohol. They have less alcohol.

Chuck (36:43.445)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (36:48.194)
Yep.

RBK Kaleidoscope (36:55.157)
Maldive behaviors that would hurt people or themselves and so for me I was like holy shit like that's not just People in mental health professionals everybody You know the intellect The more emotionally responsive I am to critical issues the better I will

Chuck (36:58.688)
Yeah.

Chuck (37:05.554)
Yeah, yeah, it is. Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (37:15.471)
be responsive to the critical aspects of my life. So it extends, it's a way of being. It's not just like learning how to throw a curve ball. Does that make sense? And so.

Chuck (37:25.65)
Yep, yep. Yes it does, yep, yep. I'm multitasking here, I'm getting something else ready for our next scene later in the episode. So I'm still listening to you. If it looks like I'm looking at something else, it's just, all right, so yeah, yep.

RBK Kaleidoscope (37:35.732)
Okay.

RBK Kaleidoscope (37:40.055)
Yeah, yeah, and you know, like, so like, to be able to perceive emotion, to integrate emotion, to facilitate thoughts with emotional understanding, to regulate emotion, is, is all, if you have all of those little elements together, all, the outcome, the byproduct of that, is promoting a personal growth that extends far beyond anything that we could even understand without the emotional intelligence. It's like, yeah, it's like discovering a new world, you know?

Chuck (38:08.846)
No kidding, eh? No kidding.

RBK Kaleidoscope (38:11.147)
Yeah, so, and then you know, like emotional regulation is such a big part of everyday life. Like, I see it all the time. People that don't know how to regulate their emotions are always finding themselves tripping over hurdles. And it seems like they just...

We get frustrated with never getting anywhere in life and the answer isn't that job, it isn't that car, it isn't that girlfriend, it isn't making weight. It's about feeling content and complete as human beings. It is.

Chuck (38:45.794)
That is so hard. It shouldn't be. And I think if a person takes the time to listen to what you're saying and to listen to what we're trying to do here on the show, it gets easier. But it's hard. You know what I mean? And it just is, you know, to be content with, you know, you and with you, right, you know?

RBK Kaleidoscope (39:00.719)
No.

RBK Kaleidoscope (39:07.139)
Yeah, and you know, and even when we are, and like...

those of us that practice this, it's still fleeting. Like every other, the other thing about emotions, here's one thing you can count on, and this is something that's really good as far as like even relapse for energy goes, is like understanding that you can, the only thing we can count on in this world is that everything is gonna change. Emotions don't last, and that's why I talk about like, happiness should never be a goal. We should appreciate it while it's here, knowing that it's not gonna be here long, and something else is gonna come along. That's why I talk about the state of peace,

It's a way of being. It's something we can embody. You know, contentment. It's a state. And we can hold... I can be peaceful and also sad. You know what I mean? But I can't be peaceful and angry. You know? No, because I should say, you know what? I can be peaceful through just... I can be peaceful through any emotion that's connectable. Which is all emotions.

Chuck (39:46.303)
Yeah.

Chuck (39:51.53)
Yeah, yeah, right. I do. No, no, no. Nope, cannot be. No, you can't be. No, no.

Chuck (40:07.682)
There you go, right? Okay, okay. Yep, yep, yep. Okay. Time to get on the mailbag? Yeah, yeah, I think so, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's why it's a three-part series, right? I know, yeah, yeah. Gotta keep him wanting for more, right? So, I had one in the queue, one has just come in from Destiny, who I was talking about. And so I'd said, hey, listen, I need a question.

RBK Kaleidoscope (40:08.463)
You know, and even in sadness, I'm connectable. Yeah. Um, okay. Sure, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, yeah, I mean, I'm going on for days about this, but I'll save it for the next one. Yeah. Ha ha ha.

RBK Kaleidoscope (40:26.444)
Yeah, yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (40:31.478)
Okay?

Chuck (40:37.238)
You know, because behind the curtain guys, I lost some of the questions that were here and I'm not sure where the hell they are and thank ADHD for that. We'll find them, we'll get to them. I'm sorry to the listeners who aren't gonna hear them today. But, fuck, right? No, you want me going down that rabbit hole right now. We got enough rabbit holes today. So I'd said to her, you know, just before we started recording, hey, I need you to come up with something and I know you've got something because you've got this entire crazy dynamic going on there, right? So.

RBK Kaleidoscope (40:45.869)
Where's my keys?

RBK Kaleidoscope (40:55.308)
Yeah.

Chuck (41:05.546)
I'm sure you can come up with a question for me, right? I'm gonna read this exactly as it's typed. And it's not a question, but it is a question. So here it is, right? It's so hard to have a question because I feel like it's impossible to talk to this person that knows he's so shitty already. So how do you talk to someone who knows, who knows, but it feels like they only say it to kind of shut you up, or how do you communicate with somebody that's like that? It's so hard.

Basically this person's in very, very early recovery, still paranoid, like super paranoid, right? Like questioning the recovery part of the paranoid now at this point, right? Because, and you know what? I'm gonna ask you that real quick before you answer this question. Because I don't know what the answer is. For a meth addict, how long does the psychosis go on from when they stop using? Typically.

RBK Kaleidoscope (41:59.899)
It depends on the length of use, to be honest with you. But it can be weeks.

Chuck (42:02.378)
Right, I guess it would, eh? It would. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so, and that's where I was saying, like, I don't know. I don't know, because it never affected me that way. I got nothing for you, right? So, but you know, it's been a week, and it's still, no, they bugged my phone, right? Like, you know I'm not crazy, right? You know, and it's been a week. So it's like, she's starting to question the validity of the recovery now, but I didn't have a good answer for that, right? So, you know, yep. Okay, fair enough, okay, that's good to know, yep.

RBK Kaleidoscope (42:13.734)
Bye!

RBK Kaleidoscope (42:19.269)
Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (42:24.503)
Yeah, no, it can last weeks. And I think like, I'm gonna say, the more we can focus on seeking to understand rather than be understood, the easier it will be to access empathy and humanize the other person. The agenda.

Chuck (42:40.483)
Ah.

Chuck (42:45.194)
Right? I just, I love that. I forget it until I hear it every single time. And I fucking love it. Yep.

RBK Kaleidoscope (42:51.267)
because it's so paramount. So I guess the first thing I would say is like, some internal dialogue needs to happen with ourselves. And the questions I would ask myself is like, what is my agenda here? The first thing I wanna know is like, is this about me feeling better about this?

What are my expectations that will invariably lead to disappointment and frustration? And then I look at like, okay, so like I have training in dealing with characteristic of schizophrenia, which has really helped me in understanding the process of recovery and especially early on. And so how do we... The goal is to come up alongside.

Chuck (43:36.639)
Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (43:43.143)
arm in arm we walk together. I'm not in front, you're not in front, I'm not behind, you're not behind. And so if it's like, yeah my phone's bugged, to say, no it's not, you're being ridiculous, what have I done? I've put myself on the outside. Instead of, that must be a really difficult place to be. It must be hard to think that your phone is bugged all the time.

Chuck (43:43.182)
Okay. Yeah.

Chuck (43:59.594)
Yeah. Hmm.

Chuck (44:09.374)
Okay, but you just said to think. You didn't validate that, right, for that person. If I'm that person, if I hear that, I'm like, you're just placating me, right? If I hear you say because you think, right?

RBK Kaleidoscope (44:21.183)
Oh, look at... Because I'm not going to confirm that. But I'm not going to deny it. I want to join them in the reality. And so it's not like... Tell me about how that feels. How are you experiencing that? Open the lines of emotional communication. Well, yeah, it's like...

Chuck (44:27.94)
Yep.

Let them have it. OK.

Chuck (44:39.667)
Okay.

What a different conversation already. Right? What a different conversation that is to have. Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (44:48.151)
And because when we get into the emotional connection part, that's where it's gonna like...

they're going to stop feeling alone. The biggest part of addiction is isolation. That is, you know, isolation is suffering. Right? And so how do we come up alongside? And we ask questions. We be interested. And I love that saying by Ibn Ibrahim, interesting people are interested people.

Chuck (45:04.508)
Boot on the neck, right? Boot on the neck.

Chuck (45:18.966)
Right?

RBK Kaleidoscope (45:19.671)
Yes, and so, and you know, and it's like, you know, I don't see the spiders, but that doesn't mean they're not there. You know, I don't see the people in the bushes, but I'll be here for you. If anything happens, you're not going to be alone.

Chuck (45:34.306)
Yeah, yeah, right.

RBK Kaleidoscope (45:35.763)
And I would just keep reiterating that I'm here, you're not alone, whatever you need to experience, I'm here to listen to it. It's not for me to tell you it's right or wrong. Because there is no right or wrong, it's what your experience is which makes it your reality. And I'm not going to tell you that your reality is wrong, it's different than mine. Yeah, and like, and then trust the process.

Chuck (45:55.566)
True story, right? True story. I...

RBK Kaleidoscope (46:03.183)
know that there is no formula for this. The only thing I can say is stay connected as best you can. Be with as best as you can. Empathy is to feel with. That is the definition. So feel with them.

Chuck (46:17.302)
Yep.

Chuck (46:21.47)
Yeah. In a million years, I could not, I would never have given that advice and I get asked a lot, Ryan. And I regret that. Well, it just means I still got lots and lots to learn, right? I'm pretty careful about the advice I give, right? But typically it's along the lines of, you do whatever you feel is right for you and I got you back. Right? Like I said, I don't know what the, you know, I'm very careful about giving advice. But I never would have thought to say,

RBK Kaleidoscope (46:31.54)
And send them my way, I guess.

RBK Kaleidoscope (46:45.175)
Yeah, yeah.

Chuck (46:51.682)
feel it with them or let them have it until they don't have it anymore. Right? Like just, you know, yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (46:55.247)
And again, like, print it in your brain. Seek to understand rather than be understood.

Chuck (46:59.374)
Yeah, to be understood. Yeah, I can, yeah, there's gonna be some sort of material going up here in the studio with that on it, right? It's, you know, most certainly, you know, right? Yeah, yeah. Nah, on an RBK t-shirt? On that note, folks, check out A2APodcast.com, hit the merchandise button, we got all sorts of crazy stuff. We got some Ash's awesome stuff, we got some RBK stuff, tanks, hoodies, t-shirts, you name it, it's there. If there's something that you would like to see, let me know.

RBK Kaleidoscope (47:09.091)
Yeah. Throw it on a t-shirt.

Sure.

Chuck (47:28.394)
It's a very short process to design. Our prices are great and shipping is included on all items that you see in the store. So, there you go.

RBK Kaleidoscope (47:35.723)
Okay, thank you for that. And yeah, check those out. I got one in the mail. Those are really cool.

Chuck (47:37.238)
I was thinking, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Actually, mine should, mine might be here today. Fuck, all right. I got a hoodie and a bowling shirt coming. Yeah, yeah, right, so yeah, I'm excited, yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (47:47.003)
Nice. Now, to carry on with that, I said something about checking your agenda, also your expectations. I think as supporters, we need to also trust the process and know that everyone's process is a little bit different than the other. And so like our expo...

Chuck (48:09.422)
When you say check the agenda, Ryan, what are examples of agenda? Because I hear that and I automatically give it a negative connotation, and I don't think that's fair. Right, somebody who thinks is trying to do the right thing, but what would be an example of an agenda that they should be aware of so that they can check that?

RBK Kaleidoscope (48:27.351)
you need to stop using now is an agenda. Well, my life would be better if you didn't use anymore. That's an agenda. Not like, you know, like let's work on cutting down use. Let's work on, I don't know, doing things that...

Chuck (48:31.07)
Okay, explain that.

Chuck (48:39.434)
Yeah, yeah, okay.

RBK Kaleidoscope (48:49.891)
make you feel better, maybe getting a gym pass again, maybe reading a book again. You know what I mean? Without saying, you have to stop using drugs or I'm never going to talk to you again. Now, I don't, see I don't ever believe that's the way. I do believe that we do have capacity. I think that we need to, like I use the term learning to love from afar. Sometimes that's kind of the last house on the block. But sometimes I got to get some space to get away so that I can restore.

Chuck (49:05.758)
Yeah.

Chuck (49:15.339)
Yep.

Chuck (49:20.726)
Yep.

RBK Kaleidoscope (49:20.965)
and you go do your thing and I'm here, call me, but I'm going to take a little space right now. That's the learning to love from afar. I still want everything great for you and I still love you. And the other thing is sometimes it's like water skiing. If you don't let go of the rope, you'll drown. So sometimes we've got to learn to know that we've done our best, that has to be enough and we can let go. And the universe will. There's a whole universe here that will.

Chuck (49:31.434)
Okay. Yep.

Chuck (49:42.29)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (49:49.725)
another to walk with that person. It doesn't always have to be us. You know, sometimes we're too close that we need, like people come and see me because I'm objectively, well I'm professional but I'm, you know, I'm objective in it. I'm not too close. And I can say the things that need to be said, you know, without fearing rejection or losing somebody or sending them off the deep end.

Chuck (49:55.74)
Yeah.

Chuck (50:06.506)
Yeah, yeah, right, right. Yep, yep, true story. You said a couple things to me that were like, OK. Right? It's, you know, yeah, yeah. Not offensive at all, but just like, oh shit, man, you know, certainly, right? Well, I guess, yeah. You know.

RBK Kaleidoscope (50:19.298)
Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (50:23.267)
Listen, I honestly believe that when your heart is in the right place, other people feel that. Inside awareness or out. You know?

Chuck (50:29.854)
Oh, without a doubt, yeah, without a doubt, right? Occasionally somebody doesn't have the EQ to see that you are being a genuine, authentic person, but for the most part, I 100% agree with that statement. Yeah, yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (50:40.191)
And conversely, as soon as they sense judgment, you're out. As soon as they sense that disappointment or shame, you're done, it's over. You're no longer an agent of peace.

Chuck (50:46.302)
Yeah.

Chuck (50:51.702)
Yep, very true, very true.

RBK Kaleidoscope (50:53.499)
So I don't know if that answers that. I'm in early recovery.

Chuck (51:00.514)
It really does though, it really does. I don't think it's the answer anybody's expecting for or looking for, but I think it's the right answer. I think it's something to work towards, right? Taking that mentality on for one argument or one conversation or exchange, whatever, not so hard, but changing your mindset to do that, that's a process, that's gonna take some time. And again, every time I hear that, I'm in love with it, and then I forget about it until I hear it again.

RBK Kaleidoscope (51:10.339)
Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (51:17.315)
Could make the whole difference.

Chuck (51:29.738)
Right? You know, and that's just the reality, right? It's a fundamental shift in how you handle the world, right?

RBK Kaleidoscope (51:29.96)
Well, it's...

RBK Kaleidoscope (51:36.475)
And that's what I mean. This process is about shifting your being the way we are in the world. And it's a process. As long as I'm breathing, I'm in process. I'm in a state of growth or decompensation. But either way. And it's not even like... even my decompensation is part of the growth process. Yeah.

Chuck (51:41.878)
Yeah. Right.

Chuck (51:48.438)
Yep.

Chuck (51:54.518)
Yeah, right, right. So, hm. All right, we have another one from, who's actually kind of a bit of a star in the Ashland Awesome world right now. Tammy again from last week in Brockville, Ontario. She asked a great question last week. She had two, I said she had to save the last one for the following week, and so we've got that again. To the listeners that might not have heard about Tammy, she, in episodes 92 and 92 and a half, she came on and told this crazy story about

being the parent of an adult child who is in it. She is now a mom again to her grandchildren, which happens quite a bit. And she's started submitting weekly blog posts to the Ashland Dawson page. And they are powerful, they are powerful. That last, the one from two days ago or whatever, it was overdose on Wednesday, so Thursday. An emotional day for me anyway, right? And when she said that to me,

RBK Kaleidoscope (52:37.987)
Yeah, they're awesome. Very powerful.

Yep.

Chuck (52:53.854)
It invoked emotions in me. I was just, wow, right? Just wow. How she does it blows my mind. So when Tammy has a question for the mailbag, we gotta be damn sure we get to it because she contributes. Her writing is connecting with a ton of people. And I gotta do another quick shout out, Benjamin Lerner. Content creators don't share other content creator stuff. Not without an exchange, it's a thing. Last night, Benjamin Lerner.

who was on the show, of course, you know, he's a great guy, huge social media following, out of nowhere, does a write-up about Tammy's blog and shares it, out of nowhere. Extremely rare event, like Haley's Comet rare event to happen amongst content creators. What a guy, what a guy, you know, it's just so, thank you for that, Ben, not that he's listening, but, you know, well, maybe he does, I don't know, yeah. Anyway, Tammy's question.

RBK Kaleidoscope (53:44.443)
Thanks Ben.

Chuck (53:51.802)
I have received mixed messages about talking openly with the children in regards to mom's addiction. I personally feel that honesty and trust are crucial. My 10 year old grandson likely knows more than we realize, you know he does, and I would prefer him to hear the truth from us and I don't ever want him to feel that we hid anything from him. Obviously it needs to be an age appropriate, but I'd like your thoughts on talking to the children about a parent's struggles. And I want to add to this...

in a conversation I had with her about it yesterday on the phone. She was telling me about the question she wanted to ask you and I was about to start weighing on that one. What she said and she didn't say it in this question like in her typed out version was, if home is to be a safe place, if I am to be a safe place, I have to be an honest place too. And so I'm gonna add that onto the question as a here's what she is doing, what do you think kind of way, right? I thought.

That was some profound shit when she said that to me. I was just like, yep, I agreed with that. But your thoughts.

RBK Kaleidoscope (54:55.951)
Well...

Hmm, I have some thoughts.

Chuck (55:01.718)
By this point, at 10 years old, I don't know if you've actually listened to that episode, he's seen everything, right? So, you know.

RBK Kaleidoscope (55:04.632)
That's the way you go.

RBK Kaleidoscope (55:08.859)
So, I mean, I think one of the hardest things to grapple with, you know, me being a parent as well, is that it is events, it's the world, it's hardship that really ends a childhood. And you know, I feel like mine was over real early. And so...

That's where I think for me it's about having

matching language but having the same message in that treating them as Not as children I'm not gonna say as an adult but speaking to them in a way that is very open honest about What's happening? So yeah, and so like I had I can tell you just recently my five-year-old Asked me about a very close family member of mine that is

Chuck (55:54.686)
and age appropriate.

RBK Kaleidoscope (56:13.138)
I explained it in a way, really I kind of took a medical model in that there is, it's almost like a sickness that she...

Chuck (56:27.082)
I love this. I'll tell you when you're done, but you're gonna love this. Go ahead.

RBK Kaleidoscope (56:32.099)
that this person cannot go through a day without taking something to change the way they feel. Because the way they feel is so awful and they don't know any other way. And there's a lot of fear in that, in that doing it in another way isn't going to work and the underlying fear will come to fruition.

And so instead of making a change, it's easier to keep doing what they're doing while it reinforces the sickness. And so that's how I, you know, like, and I'm not super medical model guy or anything, but it was a way that I could relay that to my five-year-old so she could understand. Yeah.

Chuck (57:22.83)
in an age-appropriate way, right? The guest from The Recon Rumble, you haven't had a chance to watch that yet, Todd Ranenbaum has a children's book about mental health called Sometimes Daddy Cries. And the entire premise of the book is relating it back to something medical. So just like when you have a stomach ache, dad has to go, you know, like some very relatable comparisons for a young child to understand, right? Yeah, yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (57:28.428)
I haven't known.

RBK Kaleidoscope (57:35.649)
Mm-hmm.

RBK Kaleidoscope (57:46.743)
Right, yeah. And honestly, like, and that kind of comes from the model used in Switzerland and how...

They've shifted their social view on addiction to go from a moral issue to more of a medical issue. The kids in Portugal and Switzerland, they're not out to use drugs because they see addiction as the same as influenza, heart disease, leukemia. You don't want to go and get that. Whereas me growing up, it was like that's how I rebelled against the system.

Chuck (58:18.699)
Yeah.

Chuck (58:24.17)
Yeah, right. Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (58:26.381)
I got an identity that people thought I was cool around it. And that doesn't happen there. And so when it comes relative to children, I think...

Chuck (58:28.846)
Hmm. Fucking. Yeah.

Chuck (58:35.466)
So a 10-year-old that is seen for 10 years.

RBK Kaleidoscope (58:37.199)
For a 10 year old, if they were like me, I'd want to know the truth. There is a history there that has created a turbulence within the individual. The socially accepted solution that's presented through us, through media, is typically alcohol.

And that can lead to a number of other things once we learn that if I drink this, it changes the way I feel. Then we go on in life and we snort that and it changes the way I feel the same way. And I smoke that and it changes the way I feel the same way. And now I have all these options, but it starts with the social acceptable Budweiser commercials and Captain Morgan and all that shit. And what are we taught? We're taught every emotion we have to drink over.

Chuck (59:27.918)
Yep.

RBK Kaleidoscope (59:34.397)
You go to a funeral, you drink. You go to a wedding, you drink. You go to graduation, you drink. You get a fucking promotion, you're drinking. Everything in our media points us to change the way we feel. Nothing says, be with what you're feeling, let it process, let it do its job, get out of its way, and you'll come out the other side of a better person.

Chuck (59:41.842)
You get fired, you go drinking, you got everything, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chuck (59:58.742)
Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (59:59.363)
Again, it's not marketable. It's not gonna get ratings. It's not gonna get like It's why I like that show the intervention it gets great ratings But it's to me. It's not the more effective model Although I do have changed my tune a little bit on those but Yeah, exactly and honestly like I like what Devon says like if you're at the point of intervention you've tried everything else, you know, like Yeah

Chuck (01:00:04.031)
Yeah.

Chuck (01:00:08.142)
Yeah.

Chuck (01:00:11.683)
No, it's not. No. There's one more tool in the box.

Chuck (01:00:23.574)
That's not the first call anybody's making. Oh, that's for certain, right? Rich Johnson there at Rose Creek Recovery Services has really changed my thoughts on that entire process as well. I think him and Devon are very similar in that they truly care, right? They truly care.

RBK Kaleidoscope (01:00:34.331)
Yeah. And that's it. So going back to both questions, that care needs to be in the foundation. And the element of care needs to be in every word you choose. Especially with a 10 year old. And I would also tend to... It's okay to feel the way you're feeling. You're not alone in the way you're feeling.

Chuck (01:00:50.758)
Absolutely, right. And I think... yeah, go ahead.

RBK Kaleidoscope (01:01:02.707)
I'm a safe space for you to, yeah, well, if you have questions, I'm here. I will not judge you. I will not tell you you're wrong. And I will be open. Exactly, yeah. But no matter what you do, you will be supported and you will not be alone. Yeah, exactly. Or you can just go online and download your own. Yeah.

Chuck (01:01:02.954)
Let's kick that stigma in the ass right now, right? You know?

Chuck (01:01:11.166)
Yep, yep. You're allowed to be angry, you're allowed to be sad, you're allowed to be, you know, right? Yep, yep. Let's break out a figure of the wheel so we can talk about that, right? Boom, you know. Then you order one from Ashland's to Austin for $19.95. I'm just kidding, we don't sell feeling wheels. Okay, all right. All right. Yeah, yeah. But I wouldn't have my logo on it, but you could totally just go on online and see it. Anyway, yeah, okay.

RBK Kaleidoscope (01:01:30.807)
Yeah, and so like, you know, like, again, all this requires love, all of it. In all the questions we get, the answer is love-based. It's about seeking to understand. It's about creating a safe space for people to have input, to be able to express themselves, and to ask more questions. So if your child asks you more questions, that's a win. You know? But you can't Santa Claus them.

Chuck (01:01:54.742)
Yeah, right? Yeah, it really is, isn't it? Right? Yep.

RBK Kaleidoscope (01:02:01.147)
You can't tooth fairy them.

Chuck (01:02:02.866)
I know, when I was like 24, I found out about Santa Claus. I was like, no, okay, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I had to explain last night to like two different people that humor is how I cope, so like, let's talk about that. But, you know, right? Or real stupidity sometimes, let me tell you, right? Yeah, that was crazy.

RBK Kaleidoscope (01:02:10.805)
Yeah, yes.

RBK Kaleidoscope (01:02:16.951)
Yeah, well, yeah. Takes intelligence to be humorous.

RBK Kaleidoscope (01:02:26.696)
They're not trying to be funny though.

Chuck (01:02:29.018)
Yeah, no, not me trying to be funny, right? Yeah, yeah, right? You know, yeah, at inappropriate times. It's like a superpower sometimes, right? You know? Yeah, yeah. So, I...

RBK Kaleidoscope (01:02:37.354)
As long as one person laughs, it's a joke, and I'm always laughing at my own joke.

Chuck (01:02:41.598)
Right, buddy, I have said that for 30 years, right? Like it is funny because I think it's funny. I don't really care if you do or not, right? Like I wasn't doing it for your benefit. I was doing it so I would laugh, so whatever, right? Geez, pull up your pants. You're in the middle of a goddamn stampede, right? Anyway, no, just kidding.

RBK Kaleidoscope (01:02:46.051)
Yeah, exactly.

RBK Kaleidoscope (01:02:54.856)
Yeah.

Chuck (01:02:59.242)
That brings us to my favorite part of the show, that's the deal with graduates. Yeah, what you got for us today, Roy? Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (01:03:01.755)
Okay.

RBK Kaleidoscope (01:03:05.235)
Well, you know, I started every week. My beautiful family, especially more so now. I got to spend every single minute with them for the last 10 days. And it's just like, well, yeah. I kind of liked the break, but yeah.

Chuck (01:03:14.282)
No kidding, eh? Yeah, that's wonderful. Yeah, but you're gonna start answering the phone again now, right? Yeah? Okay, good.

Yeah, we're gonna do that, that's the thing? Okay, great, thank you. Yep. I don't care about anybody else, you just answer my calls for now.

RBK Kaleidoscope (01:03:30.216)
I definitely am grateful for a break in the monotony. I'm grateful for Hammocks and sunshine and

Yeah, time by myself, time in my, time to, you know, for most of my life I was afraid to be in my own head. And now I just, it's a place that I can go and be safe and that is such a massive shift for me in my world. And so yeah, I'm grateful for introspection. I'm grateful for, and I'm super grateful for the opportunity to do this stuff and to live the life I've lived and to have people listen to the crazy shit that comes out of my face.

Chuck (01:04:14.958)
Right, right, right. Myself, I am, again, I said it earlier in the episode and I'll say it again, I am grateful for our friendship. But I am. This last week it's been not, it's not been like, oh my God, I miss him so much, but it's like, there's a hole there, right? And it's like, you know, you kind of get used to it, you get used to the free billable hours. And it's a good thing, so, you know.

RBK Kaleidoscope (01:04:16.323)
Lots of gratitude, sir.

Chuck (01:04:37.226)
Another place I'm very grateful, I'm very, very grateful and we don't have their feeling wheel up like I wanted to but in the next episode I'll make sure that I do at least show it. But it doesn't mean I can't really acknowledge Moose Draw, the Wacom LTD Center out in Moose Draw. I'd been talking to Chad Top for some time now about himself and then today I said, anyone that your staff wants to come on the show too, I mean they're all great.

RBK Kaleidoscope (01:04:37.293)
Me too.

Chuck (01:05:02.966)
For me, and I made a Facebook post about this earlier with a picture of that feeling wheel, if you come to the page and check it out, it's probably the only physical object on Earth that I could say is that starts the beginning of a very long road of healing, right? It's that feeling wheel that I helped make there, right? I got a long way to go, but fuck I got some miles behind me too, right?

RBK Kaleidoscope (01:05:24.699)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (01:05:25.45)
And I really do, and I'm so further, so much further ahead than I was when I started making the show, even a few short months ago, eight months ago now or whatever, seven months ago. And I'm grateful for the whole damn process, you know? I really am. It's been great. Mostly, I am thankful to each and every one of you, the listeners, the watchers, the supporters. It's crazy, man. It really is. We are now on every social media platform.

RBK Kaleidoscope (01:05:32.623)
Yeah.

Chuck (01:05:53.298)
I added Snapchat to the list while you were gone. We are everywhere, right? We are. Snapchat, LinkedIn, Twitter. You don't have to, but you can. You probably should. Snapchat, Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok. I think that's all of them. I think that's all. I might be missing one. If you see the logo, drop a like, comment, message, do whatever, right?

RBK Kaleidoscope (01:05:56.142)
Mm-hmm.

I gotta get Snapchat now? Alright.

Chuck (01:06:18.698)
Every time you do any one of these things, you are getting me a little bit closer to living my best life. And my best life is to make humble living, spreading the message. The message is this, if you're in active addiction right now, today could be the day. Today could be the day that you start a very lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call it a detox, go to a meeting, do whatever the hell it is you need to do to get that journey started.

Chuck (01:06:41.806)
is so much better than the alternative. Fucking Ryan. Scott. Anyway, if you're the loved one of somebody who's suffering an addiction right now, just taking the time, listen to our episode. If you could just take one more minute out of your day and text that person, let them know they're loved. Use the words.

RBK Kaleidoscope (01:07:01.816)
You are loved.

Chuck (01:07:03.65)
that little glimmer of hope just might not expecting that.