168- Donna of "Hard Knox Talks" Shares Her Powerful Journey

Chuck (00:02.779)
Hello listeners, watchers, supporters, whatever we're calling you guys these days now that we've gone to video. I'm still not 100% sure. Welcome to the Ash is Too Awesome podcast. I am your host, Chuck LaFlandre, and in virtual studio with me today is a special guest. We have Dona Gilchrist, who is the co-host of the Hard Knocks Talks live video podcast. Is that what we call that, I think? Hey, Dona? Yeah, yeah, how you doing tonight? Good, good. Ah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (00:24.618)
Yes, you're correct, yep. I'm good, I'm good. Thank you for having me tonight. How are you?

Chuck (00:30.775)
I'm doing great, thank you, thanks for coming on. I've been actually really excited to do this interview all week, which is, you know, it's not like me to be, to be excited for an interview, you know, but after having Dan on the show, you know, that was a while back now, I guess, right? But he had said some things about your story that I just thought, well, I wanna hear more about that. Right? And then, and your guys' story, I mean, from your perspective, I'm sure it's not much different, but of course you're gonna have a different lens on the whole thing too, so.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (00:40.159)
Yeah, okay.

Chuck (00:59.811)
And that's a great story, right? That's one of those happy ending and I just love that one, right? So why not, right? What I like to do, as I told you, is it's a recovery thing. So why don't you just kind of take us back to where you remember, where you figure the story starts. I think that's the best way to do it.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:02.338)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:18.762)
Well, I've put a lot of thought into that and it's difficult because it changes as I grew up and I have a different perspective on childhood and parenting sort of dynamics and relationships, right? So I would say, you know, like I had a pretty typical childhood. Parents were there. You know, there was some alcoholism, but that had been resolved.

in my very early years. However, the one parent was still a dry drunk. So there was some of those sort of symptoms in the household. I do remember a lot of tension and different things. So growing up, there was like a feeling of, a fear of conflict and a fear of not pleasing and a fear of.

being a nuisance and so that all started to contribute to like a low self-esteem and wanting to please and wanting to fit in and um.

Chuck (02:13.627)
And of course, at the time, you don't have this self-awareness. This is with the benefit of hindsight, right? Yeah? Yeah, okay, okay. Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (02:16.41)
No. Yes, yes, absolutely. Yeah, so then, you know, I got, I wasn't super popular in school. I think I was quite awkward and different things like that. So I never felt like I fit in anywhere. And then, you know, I had my first drink, I don't know, maybe around like 12 ish. And I just, I felt different, you know, and

Chuck (02:36.924)
Okay.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (02:41.662)
It didn't obviously become like a problem up until I was around 15 and partying was like the thing to do and I'd already had some experience with drinking so I could drink that little bit more and all of a sudden people liked me You know, I was fun. I was outgoing. I was no longer this reserved person. I was you know, Pretty much dare me to do anything and I'll do it Person and then

Chuck (02:56.273)
Uh oh.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (03:10.486)
That led into marijuana. But I had this persona, when people would find out I was either drinking or smoking weed, they were like, you don't look like that type. And I remember even at that time thinking, well, what's the type? And it's like, I'll show you the type. So it was almost like this weird challenge. So then that progressed into almost this competitiveness of how much can I drink and still function, or how fast can I chug a beer and still.

Chuck (03:25.959)
Hahaha

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (03:38.642)
And like everybody loved it, you know, like, well, you can chug a beer in like 30 seconds, that's amazing. Or, you know, oh, I could smoke this big dupe with the boys and like, you know, oh God, it was ridiculous in retrospect, you know? And I was always an athlete as well, so I have this competitive side to me. So yeah, it was like an invitation for competition. I know. So, you know, I did develop like a very unhealthy relationship with alcohol in my, I think, grade 10 year.

Chuck (03:45.807)
Life goals, eh? Life goals, yeah.

Chuck (03:54.819)
Okay.

Chuck (03:59.191)
Yeah.

Chuck (04:06.944)
Oh, okay.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (04:07.095)
I was, yeah, it was really bad.

Chuck (04:10.039)
Would you call yourself an alcoholic, again with the benefit of hindsight at that age? Really, eh? Okay, yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (04:13.446)
Oh absolutely, absolutely. I was going into bars under age. We were getting just hammered every night. You know and then my friends and I we tossed the keys in the air and whoever could actually catch it was the driver that night. So we were engaging in very dangerous behaviors. You know had a few car accidents. I don't I don't know how I'm still sitting here today based on just the alcohol relationship that I had from a young age.

Chuck (04:22.64)
Wow.

Chuck (04:30.556)
Wow.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (04:42.686)
That continued on into my 20s. But to backtrack slightly, in my grade 12 year, my parents separated. And in so doing, my mom and I moved into an apartment, but we had some money. And my mom's from Scotland, so she wanted to take me home to meet some of her family. And that's when I was introduced to chemical drugs. So yeah, that was my first introduction to MDMA and speed and these things. And

Chuck (04:50.768)
Okay.

Chuck (05:01.072)
Okay.

Chuck (05:05.147)
Oh, what you have over there.

Chuck (05:11.559)
Okay.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (05:12.386)
Boy, did I love them. Just, yeah, I was home, baby. Yeah, it was like everything I've been looking for. But then, yeah, it just, it took everything, all that awkwardness, all that insecurity. I could get up on the task floor and just dance for hours and not give a shit if anybody was actually looking at me or not, whereas I was always self-conscious about like, you know, why are people looking at me? Or do I look weird? Or is my hair out of place? Or all, you know, like I was very self-conscious like that.

Chuck (05:17.603)
Yeah, yeah. No kidding, eh?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (05:43.038)
So, and then I just, I loved that feeling of like love and connection that the, you know, E in particular gives you. So yeah, then I came back to Canada and the rave scene was just in its infancy in Saskatoon. So it was not really easy to get ahold of these party drugs for me at least anyways. So I didn't really develop an unhealthy relationship with them.

Chuck (05:51.42)
Yeah, exactly.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (06:10.754)
But I definitely saw even at that time, like if I had access, this could be problems. So, you know, I was always game whenever it came around, but luckily it was not something I could just like dial somebody up and have it on.

Chuck (06:29.735)
But it's funny, I refused to try E until I was 40? Something like that. It's like, I do not need another drug I like and I think I'm gonna like that one, right? So I just stayed the hell away from it until I was like 40, right? Yeah, right, so, yeah. Let's see, yeah, I see what you mean now, right? All right, yeah, that was one of those things, right? Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (06:35.475)
Oh wow.

Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (06:43.299)
Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, exactly. So then, you know, I continued partying and going to the bars on the weekends and the occasional rave here and there and whatever. But alcohol continued to be sort of a problem. And then I was I started working in a law firm.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (07:10.81)
thought that my life would amount to very much. I hated school. I didn't go after post-secondary or anything like that and somehow I ended up working in this law office and I had all this responsibility and I loved it and I was gaining you know traction in that field. So I finally for the first time in my life saw a future and so I cut back the alcohol and I could actually have just like occasional responsible sort of

Chuck (07:31.834)
Okay.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (07:39.598)
drink on a weekend or whatever. And then during that time frame, towards the end of my tenure, I met Dan. And then things really changed. But we'll get into that maybe a little bit later. So I hope that answers the question or explains kind of the pattern for me.

Chuck (07:42.122)
Oh, OK.

Chuck (07:49.333)
Uh-uh.

Chuck (07:52.664)
Ha ha

Chuck (07:56.164)
Yeah.

Chuck (08:00.751)
Well, it sure does, yeah, absolutely. It's pretty typical, not even typical thing though, right? Because what I pull from that is that you're able to cut back on the drinking. So then where do you get back into the drugs then? Like I'm assuming it's with Dan, of course, right? But not many people can pull that off, you know, just to escalate and then de-escalate on your own, especially, you know, if it was a problem for such a young age, so.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (08:16.459)
Mm-hmm.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (08:22.112)
Mm.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (08:25.802)
Well, and I had, you know, a few instances where, you know, I woke up and I dreaded my phone ringing because like my friends would be calling and be like, I can't believe you did blah, blah. You know, and I got to this point and then the three day hangovers on top, I was just like, man, what am I doing? What am I doing? So you know, I did continue smoking weed and I, you know, a lot of people would identify my relationship with weed at the time as problematic, but I didn't.

Chuck (08:37.52)
Yeah. Yep.

Chuck (08:54.248)
Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (08:55.466)
I was still able to function. I would smoke some before I even went to work, or I was later diagnosed with ADHD, and I'm not cognizant of that at the time, but I would find times when my thoughts would get out of control, and it was swirling out of control. If I just had a hoot, it would just cap everything. So I was totally self-medicating. Didn't know really why, but it was effective, and I was able to function on it. So...

Chuck (09:00.806)
Yeah.

Chuck (09:15.339)
as it tends to do right now.

Chuck (09:22.083)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (09:24.778)
Yeah, alcohol, I recognize that this is not good. And I was spending so much money. Like I had a really good job. I had no kids, I had my own house. So the amount of money that I was putting into alcohol, I was like, this is just...

Chuck (09:39.335)
Were you a bar drinker or an at home drinker? Yeah, yeah, a bar tab can get pretty crazy pretty fast, right, yeah, even at home, can't I mean just a cheap bottle of vodka every day is getting a thousand dollar a month bill kind of thing, right, so you know, right, yeah, yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (09:42.987)
Both.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (09:46.209)
Yep.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (09:51.41)
Absolutely, you know and like despite my size like I can actually put away a fair amount of alcohol You know, like I was buying like a 12 every other day Oh, yeah. Yes. Yeah and a bottle of wine

Chuck (09:56.991)
Hahaha

Oh yeah, so yeah, that's no good. That's no good at all. No, no. Ha ha ha. Oh, I drank myself out of wine, you know, early on. You know, this was the first time I got, it was like eight or nine bottles, and I was just like, yeah, keep, never doing that again. And never did, right? It's, yeah, yeah. Aren't they though? Oh, geez. It's probably the thing I miss the least about the whole life is hangovers, right? Oh yeah, hmm.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (10:17.928)
Yeah, my wine hangovers are horrible. Oh, they're just dreadful. But you're being classy, you know.

Chuck (10:27.675)
with my pinky in the air and yeah, absolutely, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We used to... Yeah, yeah. I was a mover for most of my life, my adult life. And if somebody's moving to the US, they can't take their alcohol with them. And my girlfriend for years and years was a packer, so she used to come home with like...

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (10:30.755)
Yeah, yeah. All the conditioning we endure that we're not even, you know, cognizant of that.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (10:46.256)
Mmm.

Chuck (10:51.383)
cases of homemade wine from people that couldn't take them across the border, right, you know, and whatever else, you know shit mixes And you know, jeez, I don't miss that at all Not at all so you meet Dan the man so how's that go?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (10:54.038)
Wow. Yeah, yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (11:02.978)
Hmm, down to men. It went incredibly well, to my surprise. I had a, well I was just gonna tell you that actually. We, I had a unsuccessful relationship, obviously, leading up to that point. I had this really stable career. I felt like my life was really going tickety-boo. I had a cat, or three cats and a dog, and I was like, fuck it, I'm just gonna be a career girl. And I'm just gonna.

Chuck (11:11.323)
Hajimit.

Oh, okay.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (11:32.394)
be the spinster and I'm perfectly okay with that. I even sat my parents down and I'm like, listen, don't be expecting any grandkids. Because I'm not down.

Chuck (11:39.503)
And so how old were you at this point when you're meeting Dan, like at this point in your life, give or take? OK, OK.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (11:43.642)
We were in our mid-20s. Yep. Yeah. So I was like, you know, the whole time for that has passed. So just make peace with the fact that you're not going to have grandkids in the picture. So, yeah. And then a mutual friend's friend insisted that we start chatting online. And he was working up north at the time. And I was like, I was very resistant. And she was like, oh, come on.

you know, it's not gonna hurt to have another friend. And I'm like, okay, fine. So we started chatting while he was on rotation up north and he just took me completely by surprise. His intelligence, his ability to articulate, he seemed really fun. And then he, you know, he checked other boxes. He was really handsome, like super handsome. Still is. And you know, he was upwardly mobile. He had his own house. He had a good career. Like he just, there was...

there was these boxes I didn't even know I had in my mind that he was checking off and I was like fuck here we go and you know like I knew he liked to party but it seemed to be under control because he was on rotation so he got to like go up clean and whatever and you know I still like to have the occasional drink and have some fun like which may or may not include some coke here and there but you know

Chuck (12:44.075)
Yeah, well...

Chuck (12:58.073)
Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (13:08.45)
For me, always access has been a good thing in the sense that I didn't have direct connections to any of these substances except for alcohol. But when Dan came back, it was his birthday and there was a big shaker at his house and it was just off the hinge. Everybody was railing it up and it was so accessible and these were close friends of his and I was like, oh boy, this is going to be a problem. But

Chuck (13:17.701)
So yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (13:38.226)
I just, I liked him too much for that to be a true red flag, I guess you could say. So yeah. Yeah.

Chuck (13:44.892)
Yeah.

Chuck (13:48.213)
So, now you're all high on coke at Dan's place. Right?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (13:51.058)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Chuck (13:54.568)
Um, where's it go from there? I'm still.

Chuck (14:02.219)
Sorry, I'm just thinking about Dan's story when he came on the show, so I'm kind of, you know, following along here and knowing what I know but what I don't know at the same time, right? I'm just kind of waiting for you to fill in some gaps and whatever, and not even with that stuff. So he's up north working, you're back home. Are you staying sober while he's gone? Yes, okay, so you both got your shit together while he's at work, right? Okay.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (14:06.53)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (14:24.098)
Yes. Yep.

Yep. Yeah, we were fucking fire and gasoline when we were together. Excuse my swearing, sorry. But it really it actually fits there because we were we were firing gasoline. We're just.

Chuck (14:33.435)
No. Yeah, yeah, in context. Right?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (14:44.09)
It was trouble. And then I think it was about his third time back. It was just before he got laid off. We were hanging out and he's like, you know, very nonchalant and passe, sort of like, so have you ever tried meth? And I was like, no. What are you talking, what? No. And then I'm like, why? Like, why would you ask that?

And then he kind of like, you know, got awkward or whatever. And I'm like, have you? And he's like, maybe, yep. And I'm like, oh, okay. So how often? And he's like, well, you know, here and there. And I like getting this sense, like, you know, the truth has not yet been revealed. And I said, I can't remember exactly what I said. Oh.

Chuck (15:35.164)
Yep.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (15:41.778)
He turned to me and he's like, well, you know, I'm, oh, I asked him what it's like. And he's like, well, it's kind of like coke. I was like, oh, really? You know, it's not, that was not my understanding of like what meth was like. You know, I'd seen all the horror pictures and the, heard all the terrible things on the American news and whatever. And he's like, yeah, no, actually I'm on it right now. Like what? Fuck off.

Chuck (15:56.379)
Yeah, right.

Chuck (16:00.667)
Yeah.

Chuck (16:07.05)
Alright.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (16:11.902)
And he's like, yeah, no, I'm high right now. And I was like, really? And so something in my demeanor must have been receptive. And he's like, you wanna try? And I'm like, yeah, I kinda do. Fire and gasoline, yes, yes. So that was the start of that. Oh my God, it was so intense. So intense.

Chuck (16:19.891)
It's crazy.

Chuck (16:30.599)
Fire and gasoline, right? Right? Yeah, yeah. So how was that for you the first time?

Really? Hmm. See, with the ADHD, and I have as well, for me meth never got me high at all. Like I never, I could smoke an eight ball and it would never get me even a little bit high, right? No, I would never know. I'd be a little more awake, but in the end what I realized is that it made me focus, right? It's self-medicating, right? That's what that is, right? So yeah, never. So I was really curious to hear what you would say. So it worked for you then, right?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (16:41.268)
Oh yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (16:51.69)
Really?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (17:00.742)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (17:06.978)
Yeah. Well, the interesting thing about that for me anyways, is like at the outset of having like this relationship with Beth, like I could focus and I could get so much done. And not just get things done, but I was like really happy doing it, even if it was the dishes or if it was sweeping the floor of like, you know, like Cinderella or something. I was all happy like sweep it away and the birds are singing and so...

Chuck (17:30.579)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Hahaha.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (17:35.546)
I was like, this is the best stuff that ever been invented. Oh my God, where has this been all my life? So yeah, it was, uh, it was, it was just not what it ended up being. We'll put it that way, you know.

Chuck (17:50.267)
No, no, I often say that meth always starts better and ends worse than other drugs, right? You know, it's so much less expensive. It's like, hey, this is great, right? You know, but now you've been awake for 11 days, right? And no good comes of that, right? No, like, yeah, yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (17:54.566)
Oh yeah, that would be a very accurate way to put it.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (18:01.467)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And not having eaten, so you're passing out and different things, it's, yeah, it's ugly. So, and I don't know exactly like what Dan told you, but so that we had this relationship with meth and then some situations changed so that we weren't able to get it anymore. But before that happened, what's it after? Anyways, I had, we'd been on...

Chuck (18:10.543)
Yeah, right.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (18:33.546)
meth one night and we were messing around and I fell down and I injured my back and yeah so that's what led us into this other journey you know I was in a lot of pain and he mentioned it to a neighbor and the neighbors like oh well I take Dilaudid you should try that so we did well I did and at first I was just taking it like you know just a normal Tylenol or whatever

Chuck (18:39.571)
comes.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (19:00.97)
And he comes home from work one day and now he's working in the city. And he's like, did you know if you crush and snort those that you get this different high? And it's like, no I didn't, let's give it a whirl. Because you know.

Chuck (19:13.639)
Fire gasoline.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (19:14.722)
Glutton for punishment. So yeah, we did that. And yeah, it did. It was at euphoricness. And we were like, from there we were hooked on opiates. But of course our neighbor couldn't keep continuing because she had like a legitimate prescription. So she was limited in how much she could give away. And then my dad was taking Oxycontin at the time for a hip replacement. He gave me a few. And then of course he can't supply. And

Chuck (19:24.923)
Wow.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (19:44.242)
In that whole time, like our addiction is growing and our tolerance is growing. So we're seeking more and more.

Chuck (19:50.151)
Are your parents aware at this point?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (19:53.646)
I don't think they were. I think they had a question mark, but they wanted to give us the benefit of the doubt. They certainly had no idea we were using meth, you know, at the time. That was news to them. But the frequency that I was seeking the painkillers, I think, was starting to be a bit of alarming. But then I ended up going to my family doctor and explained what had happened. And...

you know, he sent me for x-rays and I did have a legitimate back injury. So he just was like, okay, here you go. So he gave me, you know, short-term dilaudids and long, long acting hydromers. Yeah. So, so yeah, we, we abused those and I was getting, you know, say 30 a month or whatever, but unfortunately for me, I was pretty proficient in Photoshop. So I would scan the script in and even though it was watermarked.

Chuck (20:25.666)
And what did he say?

Chuck (20:31.272)
Okay, yeah.

Chuck (20:43.703)
Ah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (20:48.83)
I could clone it out and I could change the numbers and take it to the pharmacy. I'm lucky I'm not in jail, really. Yeah, well, with everything digital, but yeah, I mean, the best security they had at the time was like watermarking, you know, but I had to work around for that. So yeah, I was forging scripts and I'd already built, I grew trust with the pharmacist because I'd been in there for a while before I started doing that.

Chuck (20:54.579)
Jesus, I couldn't do that these days now, right? But yeah. Yeah

Chuck (21:04.275)
Jesus, right? Of course. Wow.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (21:18.118)
And then, yeah, so then I fasted up actually. Yeah, I confessed to my doctor. I said, like, listen, you know, I've been, well, it was kind of a symbiotic incident because he was like, so, I see some of the numbers on the prescriptions that are coming back to my office aren't quite aligning with the ones that I sent you away with. I'm like, don't point in denying, right? So I was like, yeah, yeah.

Chuck (21:24.851)
to.

Chuck (21:41.011)
Hehehehehehe

Chuck (21:45.051)
No, no.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (21:47.362)
haven't been really being honest. And I'm like, yeah, I think I've developed a really unhealthy relationship with this and I don't know what to do. And he's like, well, I don't know what to do either. So I'm just gonna cut you off. And I'm like, holy shit. Yeah, but before that actually transpired, we had met another guy who at the time was getting 80 milligram, what we thought was OxyContin.

Chuck (22:03.832)
Wow.

Chuck (22:15.216)
80s.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (22:16.414)
80s. So we were actually using my script as currency. So we were trading off for the 80s. So once that script got ended, then we had to figure out ways to actually finance, you know, this other stuff. So yeah, so yeah, we were in deep by that point. You know, by the time we came out of that, we were doing 15 each day.

Chuck (22:22.168)
Okay, yeah.

Chuck (22:33.651)
Kidding, eh?

Chuck (22:39.771)
which is just an insane amount to me. Like I just, I couldn't believe it when Dan said that to me in the first place. Did you ever experience the real dope sick at that point? Yeah, yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (22:47.994)
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. In fact, the first time I went into withdrawal, we were at a music festival. And yeah, we ran out, I think it was first day in. And it had been really, really hot. So I didn't know if I was having heatstroke or sunstroke or what was going on. But I felt like I was dying. Never felt so horrible in all my life. And, you know, later.

The second time we went into withdrawal, I was like, okay, now I get it. That's what I was experiencing at that music festival. But yeah, we we've had, we've been in some of the worst withdrawals that I can imagine, you know, yeah.

Chuck (23:30.087)
Wow. So how long does that, I mean, how does one maintain that habit, right? I mean, after, once you lose a prescription as currency, I mean, how do you possibly maintain a 30-pill-a-day habit between the two of you?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (23:37.539)
Mm-hmm.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (23:44.75)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, we had to get really creative. You know, there was selling shit, there was pawning shit. We had gotten engaged. I had a really nice wedding band engagement and wedding band set. So we used that as currency a lot. Yeah. So there was that. And then, you know, there was a little bit of stealing and there was a little bit of, you know, other things that.

Chuck (23:49.692)
Yeah.

Chuck (24:00.904)
Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (24:12.279)
I don't really remember exactly all the different ways that we had to resource to fund that.

Chuck (24:18.499)
Yeah, and if you want to see somebody resourceful, see an addict, right? You know, right? Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (24:22.398)
Right, yeah, well actually one of the other things that I, like I'd mentioned, I was pretty proficient with Photoshop. So I found out payday loan places, when they ask for government issued ID, that isn't just, you know, like your driver's license or passport, that can also include like your government issued swipe card, because there's photos on there. So I forged them and I would make up fake ministries. And I would, I would.

Chuck (24:28.742)
Okay, yeah.

Chuck (24:50.588)
Wow.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (24:51.926)
get my bank statement, I'd change all the numbers, and I'd show deposits and withdrawals and all the things and change. But I also had to change our addresses and our...

Chuck (24:56.911)
All the things, yeah, yeah.

Chuck (25:04.155)
Devil's in the details when it comes to that stuff, right? You know, yeah, yeah. So.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (25:06.206)
Oh, absolutely. And I'm a detail oriented person. And now I'm a detail oriented person in absolute desperation. Right? Yep. Yeah.

Chuck (25:15.867)
kidding right so yeah I get it I get it absolutely so all right so you never got caught for any of that stuff though you did okay

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (25:23.634)
I did, but by the time it came down I was very pregnant. So I was, the officer didn't like arrest me or anything but he handed me a court appearance. But then I basically forgot about it. And like, yeah. Yeah well and by the time, so I was pregnant.

Chuck (25:30.184)
Okay.

Chuck (25:45.059)
of addiction.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (25:52.626)
Shortly after I learned I was pregnant, we got on methadone. Yeah, so we had tried to get on methadone approximately a year or two earlier, but at that particular time, it was much harder. And Saskatoon in particular, they were not aware of fentanyl, so they were only testing for the oxycodone in the system. So when we went in for the urinalysis, it didn't show any opiates based on their testing.

Chuck (25:56.199)
Okay.

Chuck (26:03.252)
Much harder back then, eh?

Chuck (26:14.061)
Okay.

Chuck (26:18.872)
Oh.

Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (26:22.074)
So they even said, are you sure you're using opiates? And we're like, yeah, we're sure. So they even said, go home, use, and come back, like right away, and we'll test it again. So yeah, great advice. Yeah, so yeah, we did that. We came straight back, and we're nodding out. We're so high. And yeah.

Chuck (26:29.588)
Yeah.

Chuck (26:38.779)
My how times have changed, right? Yeah, yeah.

Chuck (26:46.108)
right?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (26:48.002)
the analysis still came back negative. So they were like, we're sorry, we can't put you on the methadone program. So we continued using for another year or so. And yeah, there was times where, you know, extreme withdrawal and it was just awful. And then we found out we were pregnant. We were still using, but we started to try to taper. But we weren't sure how we were gonna actually bridge that gap between, you know, the withdrawal and everything. And then...

Chuck (26:53.447)
Wow.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (27:17.95)
you know, in conversation with one of our other user friends. And she was like, oh, you know, like, they found out those 80s are fentanyl. And we're like, what? Fentanyl? What? We thought they were oxys. And she's like, oh, no, no. She's like, I recommend you go back to the clinic and get tested again and you'll probably get on the methadone. So that's what we did. And yeah, Dan got transitioned on first because I was scared. I wanted to see how he handled it. And he transitioned really well.

Chuck (27:44.563)
And how did that go from... Yeah?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (27:48.824)
So I jumped on.

Chuck (27:50.427)
So by this point, obviously you're tired. The pregnancy has got to be a blessing that way, I imagine, right, to kind of get you there, right? I never did the opiate thing, fortunately. I never crossed over to that side, but from what I've seen, it's so terrible. And I've been around a lot of it, to say the least, right?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (27:59.04)
Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (28:03.498)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (28:09.222)
Yeah, it's awful. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. No.

Chuck (28:12.883)
No, right, no. And that's what I said, well, it's a choice when people say that. This is nobody chooses that, right? Nobody ever chooses that. There's a bunch of micro choices is how I explain it to say a muggle, right? You know, that's how I explain it to them is little bit of lefts, a little bit of rights and all of a sudden, you know, you're there and you don't even see it coming. And that's just the reality of that stuff, right? So, so methadone that works to taper you off eventually, like you actually do the methadone program the way you're supposed to and yeah, okay.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (28:22.273)
Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (28:32.277)
Yes.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (28:39.062)
Yep, yep, yep. And we had the most amazing method on a doctor. He calculated it like perfectly, and then he started bringing me down so that when Graydon was born, he wouldn't be withdrawing. So Graydon didn't spend any time in NICU. Perfect, happy, healthy, beautiful little boy. And you know, I had an emergency C-section. I think the anesthesiologist...

Chuck (28:52.935)
Perfect.

Chuck (28:58.503)
Oh, nice.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (29:05.654)
when she gave me the epidural miscalculated the level of methadone already in my system. So it caused Graydon's heart to stop.

Chuck (29:11.245)
Oh, okay.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (29:16.318)
Yeah, so we were rushed into emergency and they did emergency c-section. Yeah. So outside of that, um, great ins, you know, he was born very happy, healthy little boy. Yeah.

Chuck (29:16.604)
Wow.

Chuck (29:23.562)
Wow.

Chuck (29:31.851)
Nice, nice, nice. I see the pictures on socials and you know, peeking in behind Dan quite often, and behind you there. Looks like he's happy and healthy, that's for sure. Okay, so, and that's funny, rarely have I met, and of course.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (29:39.039)
Oh yeah. Yeah.

Chuck (29:48.283)
being around the people I have for so long is, well, I've never met anybody methadone worked for. It's like, well, who the hell are you hanging out with? You're not hanging out with a bunch of sober people, are you? So how about you know? But yeah, I've heard so many people complain about the program and so many people aren't doing it properly. So it's kind of a nice, refreshing thing to hear from someone like yourself, right? That methadone worked.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (30:08.898)
Mm-hmm. Well, you know, there are pitfalls in it. Like, you know, we a couple times, we, you know, this was after Graydon's birth, we'd use a little bit of coke or whatever. And so, you know, like we pissed hot. And they threatened to take our methadone away. You know, these sorts of things. And I was always confused by this concept because I'm like, I'm not.

Chuck (30:27.239)
Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (30:32.658)
I'm not on therapy because of these other substances. I have a very direct relationship, unhealthy relationship with opiates. And that's what I'm getting therapy for. So why are you penalizing me if I used a little coke on Saturday? How is that your business? But you're stuck in the system, you're stuck in the policy, so you gotta just put up and shut up. So...

Chuck (30:37.042)
Yeah.

Chuck (30:42.511)
Yes. Yeah.

Chuck (30:50.259)
stigma, 100% stigma, right?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (31:00.498)
Yeah, it was confusing. But that is sort of ultimately what it ended up getting us out of the methadone program. Yeah, it's because a little hard, yeah. But also, Dan had lost his job because at the time what I was told, I've later learned that may not be accurate, but they had found methadone bottles in the work truck.

Chuck (31:11.079)
Oh, okay, okay. You pushed your luck a little hard.

Chuck (31:20.762)
Okay.

Chuck (31:30.492)
Oh, okay. Okay. So...

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (31:31.486)
Yeah, and so apparently that led to him being dismissed. He was also taking very high doses of methadone, so there was, he's later admitted that he was actually abusing the methadone because he would go on the nod. So anyways, I saw the writing on the wall and I started, when I'd get my caries, I started pouring them in a big jug because I knew like once we lost income, we weren't going to be able to pay for the methadone.

Chuck (31:44.773)
Yeah.

Chuck (31:54.523)
Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (32:01.45)
So I started really, I started tapering myself and like fast. So then I would just take little sips out of my jug whenever I started to feel rough, you know. Yeah, yeah, but that's how we ended up off the methadone program. And you know, we had been basically abstinent, but we hadn't done any of the work needed. You know, all that, the work that needs to go into it. And...

Chuck (32:05.648)
No kidding.

Chuck (32:10.095)
Okay, okay, so.

Chuck (32:24.567)
Yes, right. So there's a familiar story there, right? Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (32:31.534)
So a couple of buddies came over one day with a baggie and they're like, hey, you know, and we're like, well, yeah, why not, you know, and just like they say, you know, like after you've stopped and this thing comes back into your life, you're just like, you start where you left off. That's how we were with the meth. Yeah, it was just boom, right back in that.

Chuck (32:49.255)
I was a make up for time lost time kind of guy myself, but not just start where I left off, but like, I'm going to make up for all those that, you know, right. Yeah. So, so right back into math and your son is now how old

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (32:56.759)
Yep.

Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (33:03.574)
He would have been, he was just turning one. Yeah, yeah. And Dan was, he was trying to do tow truck driving, which could have been actually a very viable business except for the lack of sleep. I mean, we had a couple of instances where he like rolled through an intersection. Another instance where he ran head first, after swipe, side swiping three or four parked cars, ran head first into a tree.

Chuck (33:06.732)
Okay, okay. Oh wow. Okay, okay.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (33:31.818)
and the whole wrecker came through the back of the cab. Luckily he did not get, like he barely got injured, you know? So yeah, yeah. But it just, you know, as addiction does, it just continued to spiral and spiral and spiral and spiral, and shadier people started coming around. And from my perspective, Dan completely withdrew from me and Graydon, basically abandoned us is how I felt. And you know, he was bringing these really scary people around.

Chuck (33:34.491)
Oh wow, no kidding eh? Yup.

Chuck (33:58.926)
Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (34:01.802)
And I remember pleading with them. I'm like, you know, we need to do something. We can't keep going this way. Like these people are really bad. And if you end up in a situation where you owe them money, they're gonna hurt us. They're gonna hurt me. They'll hurt Graydon. They'll hurt you. You know, like we need to do something different here, but my pleas were not being heard. And the other thing I said to him too, is like, you guys are out in that garage like 24 seven.

Chuck (34:16.812)
Yeah, right.

Chuck (34:24.53)
addiction.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (34:30.23)
banging and cutting shit up and like our whole backyard or back alley looked like a dump. You know, so we were getting tickets from the city and like it was just a lot of heat on us. You know, and like one of my biggest fears was that the ministry was going to show up. You know, and my biggest fear came true. They did.

Chuck (34:40.707)
Yeah, yeah.

Chuck (34:45.661)
Yeah.

Chuck (34:50.095)
Yeah, it was a horrible part of the story. Dan's there too, right? So, how was that for you, that experience?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (34:59.906)
There are no words. There are no words to describe that because.

Chuck (35:03.461)
I can't imagine that. And I guess I should don't afford for the sake of people listening, when we say ministry here, we mean child services and showing up and, yep, yep.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (35:11.654)
Yes, yes, Child and Family Services for the purpose of child protection, as they call it. I'm a little bit cynical about the program. And this plays into how I was feeling when this actually happened because I had done some work in law. And one of the firms that I worked in, we handled child apprehension files. And I saw...

Chuck (35:17.987)
Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (35:36.754)
I saw the inside of how their ministry functions and all the barriers and obstacles that they put up and how the target for successful reintegration of the child into a family's life, all the barriers and obstacles that they put in as well as then they keep moving it. Not only was this like, oh my God, this is happening and oh my God, this is happening to us.

Chuck (35:54.495)
Ah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (36:02.774)
But I had this, it's one of those situations where sometimes knowledge is not power, because it was, I had no hope. Right then and there, I was like, that's it. Everything's done. It's done. Like I just, I can't.

Chuck (36:07.501)
Mm-hmm.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (36:19.694)
So I completely, completely imploded. I remember collapsing to the floor, and I just wailed like a mother who just found out her son was killed in a horrible car accident. Like, it was that level of grief. And I just...

Chuck (36:38.503)
Wow.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (36:38.662)
I was inconsolable, you know?

Chuck (36:41.419)
I can't imagine that. I'd like to say that I can imagine, but I can't, right? I just, no, I never understand that. Um, I mean, it goes where it goes from there. So is that kind of the end of you and Dan then I'm guessing for at least that phase or the beginning of, right?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (37:00.106)
It sort of was. I remained in the house for a short period of time. Now, during that time frame, my use was not bad. I was basically on weekends and Grady would go to my parents on weekends. So my use wasn't out of control, for lack of better terminology. But, you know, Dan's was very...

Chuck (37:15.155)
Okay.

Chuck (37:19.827)
Okay.

Chuck (37:27.759)
at all or nothing.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (37:28.85)
all or nothing kind of a thing. So when we sat down with the ministry, I explained the situation like, I'm not using that much, I guess I am using, but I'm not using that much. And they believed me. And they were actually willing to work with me, but they didn't want me to remain in that house. Which makes sense, right?

Chuck (37:54.195)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (37:56.866)
But at the same time, I didn't want to go. I was really mad at Dan. I blamed him for how everything came down and I felt very...

Chuck (38:04.891)
Yeah.

Chuck (38:10.605)
Unheard.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (38:11.506)
unheard, discarded, I didn't matter. You know, it was very, but at the same time, this was my man, this was my relationship, this was what I had put all my faith and love into, and I wasn't willing to just walk away. And in that as well, you know, he was the father of my son, and I was aware, like I could see he was struggling.

And I had this fear that if I left too, would he do something? You know, and I didn't want that to happen either. So I felt really torn and very, I don't know what to do. And I just, I couldn't make a decision. And, and, you know, and I'm dealing with all this, the ministry, my parents are just choked with us.

Chuck (38:49.436)
Yeah, stupid.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (39:06.414)
you know, because fortunately the ministry did take great into them for care, but they were so mad at us. They wouldn't even talk to me. So I was just incredible overwhelmed. I couldn't make decisions, at least not logical, informed decisions. And there was this person who was hanging around whom I had known many, many years earlier. And...

Chuck (39:06.961)
Yeah.

Chuck (39:24.908)
Right.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (39:35.094)
You know, I say like I wouldn't have if I had been in a stronger state of mind, made the decisions that I did. But he convinced me that he could help. And I was.

Chuck (39:47.451)
Okay.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (39:51.778)
I would have believed the devil could help that day. Some kind of hope. Yeah. And, you know, I struggle with this, like, you know, deferring blame or accepting my role and these sorts of things. But it's very cloudy and it's very, there's a lot of gray in there because I feel like he ended up taking advantage of the situation.

Chuck (39:54.535)
Just some kind of hope, anything to hold on to. Yeah, yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (40:18.998)
that I was in and the state that I was in. So that's about, it was around Christmas time of 2016 that I did finally leave the family home.

Chuck (40:20.098)
almost assuredly.

Chuck (40:35.235)
Okay, okay. And yeah, so this is, I'll be honest, this is kind of where, what the fuck happened here? We did just, right, from Dan's story, that was a big gap, of course, because he wasn't telling your story, right? So, where do you go from there, Donna? What's up?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (40:37.394)
and it was out of the frying pan into the fire.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (40:44.978)
Mm-hmm.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (40:49.643)
Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (40:56.906)
Basically to the streets, you know, like he did this person that I left with and we left as friends, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Naive that I was.

Chuck (41:07.451)
Yeah, at least you did.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (41:16.086)
So he promised that we'd be able to stay at his mom's and everything would be chill and we'd would, you know, get me set up with income assistance and we would, you know, make visitation times to see Graydon and everything would be great and, you know, we'd get to his mom's and she's like, no, you can't stay here. What are you talking about? So, both, both. So I was like, oh, okay, now what?

Chuck (41:38.587)
Him and you were just you. Oh, okay. Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (41:45.642)
You know, she's like, yeah, you can, you can maybe sleep here for a night or two and try and figure things out. But you can't like, you can't just like move into my basement. So yeah. And, you know, at that time I was, I was, I was twirling and, uh, but it's, you know, glass breaks quite easily. And it was at that time, I was not aware of there being like, you know, safe supply or, you know, the.

Chuck (41:54.747)
Yeah, right, right.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (42:15.862)
what's the word I'm looking for, where you can get new, the free pipes and all that stuff, right? So if it existed at that time, I was totally unaware that it did. And he was using needles. And, you know, I finally was like, well, I need to get high. Like, you know, I want to, I need to get high. Like, and I have no pipe, so I use needles.

Chuck (42:18.439)
harm reduction, the free pipes. Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (42:44.898)
for the first time. And...

Chuck (42:44.979)
Mm-hmm. How was that for you?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (42:49.07)
Well, I mean, it was amazing in this in this in the sensation and the rush and the fact that it just like took everything away instantly, whereas like, you know, the other method, it's a little bit of a slow build. But when you're using IV, it's like it's bang. Yeah. So so yeah, that started my foyer into IV use.

Chuck (43:07.311)
Yeah, that changed my life too. That was the, yeah, instantly changed my life.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (43:18.702)
And yeah, you know, and so for about 18 months, I was using meth intravenously on the streets, very transient. Yeah. There was, I wasn't personally involved in the gangs, but I was kind of on the peripheral because of him.

Chuck (43:25.074)
Okay.

and on the streets for this time or... Yeah. Gangs.

Chuck (43:40.58)
Okay.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (43:41.93)
He was never thrown down with anyone's particular group, but he had family in a few of the different groups. So he was kind of a free agent, collector, enforcer type of person. So yeah, he's got a big reputation. He's very feared. Yeah, nobody messes with him. Yeah, even when he... I have no idea.

Chuck (43:50.842)
Okay.

Chuck (43:54.579)
Okay. Yeah.

Chuck (44:00.861)
Okay.

Chuck (44:04.275)
kidding. And these days, do you happen to know is he still out there and in it? No.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (44:11.379)
I don't even like to say his name because it's like speak of the devil and he shall appear. I'm not even religious but I believe that one. So.

Chuck (44:15.879)
Fair enough, eh? Fair enough, yeah. Yeah. Fair enough, fair enough. So can you, like, what's that like for you being on the fringes with a tough guy like that? Are you enjoying some of the clout that goes with that? Or is it just a grind day to day?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (44:35.442)
It's a grind day to day and like he didn't start out physically and emotionally and abusive, but it very quickly turned into that, right? Exactly. So yeah, it was, there were times where I was like, did I step into like an alternate universe? Like what the F is going on? Where am I? What happened? How do I get out of this mess? Is there a way out of this mess?

Chuck (44:42.737)
Do they ever? I mean, right? Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (45:02.106)
And so I feel like I spent a lot of the time in just this state of shock, you know, and then I'm encountering a lot of very dangerous people. And keep in mind, like I came up, you know, white suburbia, rather protected, like this shit, I only saw this stuff in movies, like I didn't have any direct, you know, I didn't, and like I didn't know how to be, you know, and there are certain rules on the street that are unspoken.

Chuck (45:28.371)
Of course.

Chuck (45:32.603)
Yeah, yeah, right.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (45:33.491)
And you just expected to know these things. And so, yeah, it was terrifying. And, you know, I...

I was completely overwhelmed and had no idea what to do. But also in a state of extreme grief because I had absolutely no contact with my family. I had no contact with my son. I had no idea what where Dan was if he was okay. And, you know, when that separation first took place, there was obviously animosity between the friend and Dan and the friend.

I did not really know would do things to screw with Dan. You know, so there was a lot of things. It's like, he had the phone. I was never allowed to have the phone. I was never allowed to even touch his phone. If I touched his phone, I was getting a punch in the face. So yeah, it was bad. Like I wasn't allowed to go to the bathroom by myself. I wasn't, there were times where he would pick fights with me and I would, you know, stand up for myself.

Chuck (46:14.865)
Uhhh...

Chuck (46:23.46)
Okay. Jesus. Wow.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (46:39.776)
and then he threw me out.

You know, but it was almost like a, you know, well, this is what you're facing without me. Can you sink or swim?

Chuck (46:44.099)
Yeah, right.

Chuck (46:51.767)
who knows what the games are, right? You know, I often say that those guys aren't that smart. They don't have these master plans on how to separate you and isolate, you know what I mean? And all those things that happen, I think it's instinct. You know, it's kind of my theory on that anyway, right? Because, you know, nobody's, especially when you get into drug use, nobody's putting together master plans that take weeks or months to enact, right? But...

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (47:03.36)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Chuck (47:13.351)
there's a level of instinct there that's really terrifying. That they're able to do what seems like it's been planned out over the course of weeks or months. You know, right?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (47:16.043)
Yes.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (47:21.498)
Oh yeah, yeah. And he just, he loved to just mess with people just because he could. Yeah. He, it was, and he was the same with his perspective of policing. It was all a game. Catch me if you can. Yeah. And the more warrants he had out, the funner it was. Yeah.

Chuck (47:27.428)
Yeah, yeah, right, so.

Chuck (47:38.083)
Okay, okay, yeah, yeah.

Chuck (47:46.087)
I never understood that crap, not for me. So throughout this time, do you get more heavily involved in legal activity as well? Then I'm assuming, well, maybe you didn't have a computer to do your Photoshop thing with, but you know, right?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (48:02.079)
I tried a few times to convince people to hook me up with one because I could at least like earn my keep that way You know, but yeah, they he tried to drag me down into a few things But I you know, he also was aware that like I'm not of that life I don't have that training and I'm heat. I'm total heat you know, like he'd go into do some shoplifting and I he'd look over at me and I'm like

Chuck (48:07.304)
Yeah.

Chuck (48:17.959)
Yeah.

Chuck (48:22.011)
Yeah.

Chuck (48:27.123)
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (48:29.11)
I'm just totally giving it up. So usually my job was like to keep six outside or keep six down the street and like signal if needed that kind of a thing. So yeah, I was lucky to be kind of be on the periphery that way, you know? Yeah. So there were a couple things where, you know, went on, I know, missions outside of town where there was a couple things that happened. But again, my primary function was to just watch out.

Chuck (48:43.763)
Okay, okay, yeah, yeah.

Chuck (48:57.699)
Yeah, yeah, not kidding, eh? Not kidding.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (48:58.846)
Yeah, but there was, there was, like I didn't end up copying a charge for fraud. Uh, that's, I pled out too. Um, and that involved, he had busted out a window to a car cause, but she, like there was a concert on and a woman left her purse on the passenger seat. And he somehow, in us driving by, spotted the purse, slammed on the brakes, jumped out of the car, smashed the window open, grabbed it, threw it in my.

lap and went speeding away and I'm sitting there like what the hell just happened and he's like dig out all the credit cards we're heading to such and such a town and you're gonna tap and I'm like no I'm not like I don't want to I don't want any charges like I don't want to go to jail like I actually have hope of returning to a normal life someday and he's like you're gonna do it or else

Chuck (49:32.155)
Wow.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (49:53.706)
He's like, it's a long highway between Saskatoon and that town. And you wouldn't be the first person to be found on that highway. And it was middle of winter. And I know, I know that stuff happens. Right. So I was like, okay. Okay.

Chuck (49:53.819)
Grrr.

Chuck (50:10.12)
Yeah. Wow. So you did it, right? Jesus, eh? Excuse me. Okay, so you end up taking a charge, but not that it ever comes up that? Nothing, you don't end up being convicted of it or anything? What happened? Oh, you planned to, oh, sorry, you just said that. Yeah, yeah, okay, okay.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (50:11.926)
Yep, I did. Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (50:29.674)
Well, I pled out. I pled guilty. I did. Yeah. But, yeah. Yeah. Probation. Yeah. But, you know, I don't know. I was really disheartened by the fact that, like, initially, the Crown wanted to take a really hard stance. He wanted me to do some jail time, but I just had Kendra. So my defense lawyer and the judge who was sitting actually knew me from back in my legal days.

Chuck (50:35.023)
just probation or something to that effect.

first timer and all that.

Chuck (50:58.975)
Oh wow. Oh, oh wow.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (50:59.742)
So she was like, wow, yeah, I don't think we're going to send her to jail. I'd like her to maybe have an opportunity to become a contributing member of society again. So she agreed to the defense counsel's suggestions. And that was, you know, probation and fine options.

Chuck (51:06.258)
Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (51:21.25)
So, yeah. Ha ha ha.

Chuck (51:21.947)
Go ahead. Sorry, sorry. Somebody behind me there.

Chuck (51:29.795)
Anyway, well, lucky for that, eh? But how was that for you though? How was that feeling looking at people you knew from, you know, before things got really bad and then.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (51:40.491)
It was... Uhhh...

I can't quite come up with a word right now. It's obviously a level of shame.

Chuck (51:51.383)
And by this point, you're sober because you just had Kendra, right? Yeah. So now that's a different lens to look at it with, right? So yeah, so sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt, but I just wanted to make sure I had the right context there, right? So how was that for you then? Shame, of course, but.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (51:54.958)
Kendra, yep, yep.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (51:59.896)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (52:09.842)
Yeah, just deep shame and again a level of, like this is surreal. Like how can I?

Chuck (52:16.903)
Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (52:20.578)
This is not how I envisioned my life would turn out, you know, and yeah, it was just, it was very surreal to be standing in the position of a defendant.

Chuck (52:32.463)
No kidding, right? No kidding, no kidding. Okay, so we skipped over a bunch of stuff there because now all of a sudden you're sober standing in front of a judge with a new daughter. So, and that's fine. Where does recovery come into it for you? Like when does that become the thing to make happen?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (52:34.502)
Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (52:42.943)
Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (52:50.926)
Mm-hmm. So backtracking a little bit in that time frame where I was on the streets, I did make a few attempts to navigate the system, but it was like, sorry you don't meet the criteria here, sorry we don't have room, or can you call us back in two weeks and then we'll get you in for intake and then somebody will call you back in two months, and you know blah blah. And like you know I'm already in this like super low state as is

people in that sort of world, right? There's only so many times you can hear no or sorry or you see these barriers and these obstacles and it just becomes like, this isn't even possible. Like, how does anybody get out of this? You know? So I, yeah, I was completely hopeless of ever getting out. And through the grapevine, I had heard that Dan got better. He'd gone to treatment and got great and back. And...

Chuck (53:23.373)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Chuck (53:32.739)
Yeah, right.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (53:51.454)
I don't know, there was a part of me that was relieved, but there was a part of me that was really like angry, really resentful. Yeah, because I was like, I shouldn't even be here. And I did, I blamed him. I blamed him for a lot. So yeah, I was like, this is super unfair. And I remember being out one night.

Chuck (53:58.055)
Presentful, yeah.

Chuck (54:07.987)
I'm kidding. I'm kidding, right? Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (54:19.366)
and I threw my hands up in the air. Like I've always been spiritual, not religious, but spiritual. And there were times like, you know, when I'd be out at night, I'd be like, if this is how I'm gonna go, just can you please not drag it out like this? Like just do me in already. Please just get it over. Like I didn't, I was on that weird, like I wanna die, but I don't wanna die. Can't do it myself.

Chuck (54:37.028)
Yeah, right.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (54:46.646)
Hopefully I'll just OD and I'll be over and done with, right? But at that same time, I was also like, I don't want my son to find out or learn someday that his mother died on the streets. So such a weird, weird realm to be in. So I had reached this point of like, I just, I can't, I can't do this anymore. Like, what do you want from me? And like, please.

Chuck (55:02.739)
I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (55:16.014)
Please save me. And I laugh now because it's one of those, two weeks later, I started feeling like really weird. And it was starting to symptoms that I remembered having when I was early pregnancy with Graydon. Like, no way. No. So I went and I got, you know, the stick and sure enough, I was pregnant. And I was like, this is your answer.

You've got to be f-ing kidding me. Like I am homeless, I'm in a domestically violent relationship, I'm an ivy user of meth. I don't know that it could get any worse. And this is what the answer is. And a few days later, when I told him that I was pregnant, he was a complete dickhead about it. I threatened to...

Chuck (55:54.821)
Yeah... No kidding, eh?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (56:12.462)
force or cause a determination of the pregnancy. And I don't want to get into the depths of it because it's really, really ugly. So I fled. Yeah. So I fled and I jumped on a city bus and I rode that bus for I don't even know how many hours and but the bus driver came to the back and he's like, you know, I know we have a beautiful city, but I said something more is going on here. Are you, are you okay?

Chuck (56:16.478)
Yeah.

Chuck (56:21.586)
no I don't think we get the picture yeah

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (56:43.162)
And I just broke down and I told him everything. And he was like, I don't know how to help you, but I might know somebody who can. Can I take you back to the downtown bus office? And I said, I'm willing. I'm so open and willing right now. So he took me there. I met with the manager of the office.

Chuck (56:48.381)
Wow.

Chuck (57:05.872)
Wow.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (57:13.31)
And she had a life on the streets. And she actually knew the guy that I was having these problems with. And she's like, oh yeah, I know that dude. So she's like, I think what we need to start is get you into a shelter. So she made the call and I got into a shelter and I'd been in that shelter a couple of times, um, wasn't treated super well, just another girl, just another number, but this time I was pregnant. So.

Chuck (57:27.922)
Wow.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (57:43.27)
Everything changed from that moment on. Everything. Services came to me, like the staff in the shelter, and like he was still at large. He was hovering around the house, he was threatening, he was calling, he was doing all sorts of crazy things. So they were like, you don't, no, you can't go outside. So we will have the services come to you. So they did. They called everybody, they...

Chuck (57:47.559)
No kidding. All of a sudden.

Chuck (58:06.032)
Yeah, yeah.

Chuck (58:10.888)
Wow.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (58:13.182)
With my permission, they're like, can we call these people and see if they can help you? And I'm like, yep. So they did. So Prairie Harm Reduction came to me, Healthy Mom, Healthy Baby. I was so wrapped around with services, I can't even remember all the services that came to me. Yeah, it was amazing.

Chuck (58:33.103)
No kidding, no kidding. So that pregnancy turned out to be just the thing you needed after all, right?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (58:38.822)
It was an absolute answer to my prayers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just, I don't, I don't, yeah.

Chuck (58:43.367)
Kidding, eh? That is amazing. That bus driver, oh, do you know who he is? I'm not asking you to name him, but I could do. Wow, eh? Wow. It should be something to be able to communicate to him. Right?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (58:56.33)
Yeah, I don't even know the bus number that I jumped on in order to kind of narrow down who he might be But yeah

Chuck (59:03.555)
Yeah, right. Well, I guess if you talk to the manager that he introduced you to, I'd probably do it for you, right? But if you're so inclined, right? Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, right. Wow, wow. That's a hell of a story. You know what that sounds like is a morning cup of kindness episode. You're gonna have to do that now for us, right? Yeah, I think that's perfect. That's perfect. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (59:08.274)
Yeah. Yeah, if she's still there, I don't even, I don't know if she's still there. But yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (59:21.502)
Okay. But you know, I'd like to just like on that whole point, like we get we get these certain ideas in our head about how life is supposed to be or the direction that it's supposed to go. And sometimes the best things happen. But it doesn't always look the way we're expecting it to.

And so if you can kind of learn to surrender to the process a little bit, it may just be the absolute best thing that could ever happen. Just like that. The initial was like, this is the worst thing that could have happened. Very quickly turned into the thing that saved my life and reunited me with my family.

Chuck (59:49.629)
Right?

Chuck (59:57.647)
No kidding, eh? Yeah, yeah, right?

Chuck (01:00:03.547)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (01:00:09.839)
No kidding, no kidding. How was recovery for you? Because I know you're not a 12-stepper, right? So what was your journey like that way? Let's get in a more positive side of things here.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:00:15.171)
Mm-mm.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:00:20.406)
Well, I did, I had some wraparound supports, but one of my support workers was very much into meditations. So she suggested a few meditations and then that began this exploration of self-help, basically. I started with some meditations and then I started to learn about self-hypnosis, positive affirmations, solfoggio frequencies, binaural beats.

all these things to help change the brain and subconscious messaging because 90% of what we do is on the subconscious. Only 10% is in the conscious. So if you can change that programming on the subconscious level, our conscious actions change and how we perceive things and how...

you know, how we interpret things that happen in our life change. So I, I bought in, I went on this mission and I was very pregnant with Kendra. Um, you know, I didn't, I didn't have any friends. I had not yet connected with my parents. So I really, I had nothing else to do, but listen and practice these meditations, go for walks, reconnect with nature. Um, and just.

Chuck (01:01:15.801)
Okay.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:01:40.642)
Just learn how, and of course, I've got all this trauma that keeps coming up and it's really ugly and there's times where I'm like yelling and screaming and trashing my apartment and like probably scaring the crap out of my neighbors because they're probably like, what's that woman's problem? Yeah, that's exactly right.

Chuck (01:01:55.259)
Kidding. That's a ginger upstairs. Yes. Right.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:02:03.342)
So I was also aware of the fact that how the mother is mentally and physically and emotionally has a direct impact on developing fetus. So I really put this pressure, I guess you could say, on myself to find a healthy outlet, a healthy way to handle those trauma responses. And so I was working in a lot of guided meditations about surrender and becoming the observer and releasing that which no longer serves you.

And the most powerful moment I had was one day I was in that state of flux where I was mad and I was hurt and I was like, why me? And how could he do this? And what an asshole. And it had been like months since I'd seen him. And I was like, holy shit, he still has power over me.

He still has complete power over me. He's not even in my physical realm. But here I am still a complete victim to him. And that's when I was like, no, it ends here. And that really was the switch for me. Mm-hmm.

Chuck (01:03:14.523)
No kidding, eh? No kidding. As soon as you stop becoming a victim, we just talked about this today. The other side of victim is, I can't remember now, Jesus. Anyway. It brings you choice anyway, right? Freedom of choice, right? So with choice comes freedom. So yeah. Right, right, yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:03:30.686)
Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:03:34.699)
Yes.

Chuck (01:03:38.307)
Well, and so now today, still no 12-stepping. I know Dan's kind of, right? He's kind of got one foot in there and one foot out. Nope.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:03:46.366)
Yeah, yeah, the funny thing though is like when I first came back down and he'll even say this himself He was a total blue-flamer. I don't know if you know that expression at all Okay, so oh Okay, that's definitely not what we're talking about. No, so Because I didn't do the 12 steps because I didn't do program detox anything any of that he did not validate my sobriety

Chuck (01:03:54.519)
I don't, I don't, no. For us, that meant to lighten your farts on fire when I was a kid, that's what a blue flamer was. Yeah, yeah, okay, yes, yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:04:13.506)
He very much doubted my sobriety. He put up many, many walls for me even getting reconnected with Graydon. We ended up in like a really nasty custody battle. It went on. It was, and it got dirty. Like it got really, there was no holds barred. It was, it was ugly. But then, you know, I continued to be sober throughout it. Much to his.

Chuck (01:04:13.776)
Ah.

one of them.

Yeah.

Chuck (01:04:31.956)
Ah, cheesy. Yep.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:04:41.35)
I don't know, amazement or dismay, I don't know.

Chuck (01:04:41.777)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, all right. Was he a driver to that at all, an I'll show you kind of thing, or were you kind of above that?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:04:50.174)
No, I was just so desperate to see my son. That was the only thing I had my eyes on. I wanted to see my son. And at the same time, I would not have survived another apprehension. And back at the time, when you have had a previous ministry involvement, you get flagged if you ever come, right? So.

Chuck (01:05:13.063)
Well, of course. Yeah, of course.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:05:15.654)
I knew the ministry and I had worked actually pretty closely with the ministry leading up to Kendra's delivery day. I was given this opportunity to advocate for myself and I had my support staff, or support team, excuse me, advocate that I should be able to bring the baby home because normally it's an automatic apprehension at the hospital. So fortunately I met the ministry's requirements and I was able to take Kendra home. And I bawled my eyes out that when I finally got home.

I broke down hard because I was like, holy crap, I made it. Because there's just no way I would have survived another apprehension. It's just so devastating. And just, yeah. So.

Chuck (01:05:48.627)
Kidding, eh?

Chuck (01:05:55.695)
I can't imagine, there's a flaw in the system there. There's one place in Regina that I know of when I was there where a family can actually go that are on the verge of apprehension and you can go live with your kids and be supervised in this kind of small apartment building. It's like, that is so much better. You take away that one person's, the one thing that person lives for and then ask them to live, right? And to get healthy, well, yeah, right?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:06:09.854)
Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:06:18.55)
Yeah. And then tell them they're not doing good enough. You're not trying hard enough. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's what I was alluding to earlier when I said, like, that system has a problem. So, yeah, it took, you know, this ugly custody battle. And then we did finally get ruling for 50-50 joint custody week on, week off, shared parenting.

Chuck (01:06:25.743)
Yeah, this is a horrible system. Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:06:46.986)
And we were just starting to get that sort of pattern going, and the pandemic hit.

Yeah. So that again changed everything. Yeah. Because now, you know, we couldn't like communicate through lawyers. We had to direct communication. And then what turned out is like he would come with Grady on a Friday and just be like, and leave. He was like, how are you? And then it was, hey, how about you stay for supper, you know, and try to make the transition a little bit easier on Graydon.

Chuck (01:07:16.751)
Yeah. It's a little bit straight, yeah.

Chuck (01:07:21.747)
I gotta say, I gotta say that almost word for word dance version of that, right there. Almost word for word, there was no separate lens, there was nothing, that was like, yeah, those three or four sentences were just bang right on, right, so yeah, that's funny, yeah. That's funny.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:07:27.63)
Ha ha!

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:07:35.286)
Yeah. Well, I could see Graydon was struggling, you know, and I think, you know, Dan was aware of it too. I think it just took one of us to be like, maybe we can do this to make Graydon's life a little bit easier right now. You know, but in so doing, he came to realize that I was okay. I did deserve to have my son in my life, you know?

Chuck (01:08:04.977)
Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:08:05.126)
And that there might be even hope for reconciliation between him and I. Though it was not, I don't know how much on the radar it was at that particular time, but at least we could coexist and co-parent and not be that toxic couple that like poisons their kids, you know? So.

Chuck (01:08:12.124)
Yeah, no kidding.

Chuck (01:08:23.991)
Yeah, right, yeah, yeah. No kidding, well, I'm glad that you guys did. And I love that you ended up back together. So that just happens over time. I mean, that's, that you guys get back together. I mean, is there any big moments in that story to, you know? Or does it play out the way you think it would?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:08:39.966)
Well, I suppose that...

We just, you know, we started spending more and more time together as friends, but as Graydon's parents as well. And then, and then Dan had started up this Hard Knocks Talks. And then he, I was searching, I was, I was, I knew, and he would say regularly, like, I had such an amazing story that I needed to share it. I just wasn't sure how, and I still had fear of, of...

ramifications if that certain somebody would hear me talking shit about him. What what that you know could translate to for us. So yeah, he started talking sort of talking me into sitting in the chair as a host of a show. So and he knows like I'm not I'm not really outspoken his favorite analogy and I.

agree 100% it's bang on is that he's the bumblebee bumping into your window and I'm the ladybug under the leaves. Like I am I'm the background person and I'm okay with that. You know I don't have the bravado and all that he does so he didn't think I would ever do it and he says for him the day that I sat in the chair and actually did it was like mind-blowing for him.

Chuck (01:09:44.079)
Yeah. So...

Chuck (01:09:51.975)
Hehehehehehe

Chuck (01:10:09.64)
Did the co-hosting or did the story, like told your story?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:10:13.319)
I had a show for a short while. Yeah, it was called Phoenix Fire. Yeah, and it was very similar to Hard Knocks. It was all about lived experience and conversations with people in recovery and advocates. And, you know, I had the privilege of talking to many amazing people. But the difficulty that I found was...

Chuck (01:10:15.616)
Okay, he mentioned something about that. Yeah, okay. Okay. Okay

Chuck (01:10:23.867)
Okay.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:10:38.426)
The show was about seven o'clock at night, which is generally when the kids are supposed to be going to bed. So I was like out there trying to do the mom thing and then run like hell to the studio. You know? And you know even like for our interview like as you know, like I did like a breathing exercise and I did some you know centering beforehand. There was none of that. There was there was no ability to do that when it was when it was my show. Just

Chuck (01:10:48.819)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Chuck (01:11:00.559)
Yeah, of course.

Chuck (01:11:05.264)
Yeah, right. Right.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:11:06.086)
I just didn't feel like I was doing it justice. Like I really wanted to continue, even though it was way outside my comfort zone. I saw the value in it, and I loved having the conversations with people. I just had this deep concern. I wasn't doing it the justice that it could be. And also Hard Knocks was continuing to grow. And so we decided to, you know, like maybe let's just focus on Hard Knocks and build that. And I can, you know, do some speaking engagements and different things.

Chuck (01:11:12.42)
Yeah.

Chuck (01:11:22.515)
Okay.

Yes.

Chuck (01:11:32.066)
Yeah.

Chuck (01:11:35.307)
Okay, okay, okay. And so, are you doing that now, speaking engagements, that type of thing? Or?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:11:36.054)
in that way.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:11:40.018)
Yeah, yeah, we did a few last year. Hoping to do a bunch more this year. Yeah, yeah, so. Yeah.

Chuck (01:11:45.079)
Okay, okay. So the two of you get up on stage together and kind of have a choreographed thing-ish?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:11:51.55)
We're, no, we do individual share. Yeah, so it's kind of interesting because the crowd gets to hear everything from his side and then everything from my side. You know, yeah.

Chuck (01:11:55.98)
Okay.

Chuck (01:12:04.099)
Right, right, yeah, yeah. So I was thinking that, I was like, why did I, I don't have to pick between, I can still have Dan on two video episodes, can't I? Because, you know, we had him on audio only, but right. I was like, I have to pick between the two of them, did I? Was that, was that, you know, end of the road choice, or, you know, yeah, so I might just have to get that.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:12:13.243)
Uh... Ha ha ha!

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:12:18.798)
No, no, but we are contemplating in terms of developing a keynote, maybe doing something more of the two of us together. Yeah, it's very much up in the air right now.

Chuck (01:12:30.691)
Yeah, right. Yeah. The dynamic between the two of you, and I noticed that the first time I watched your show, right, was just like, that's really cool. Like, that's really cool what they've got going on there. So I imagine that could translate into all sorts of other things, right? You know, be it keynote or whatever you want it to do. So yeah, yeah. I think it's incredible what you guys are doing there. I often say that Hard Knocks is one of the only shows that I've come across that kind of focuses.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:12:47.35)
Yeah.

Chuck (01:12:59.747)
on different things than your typical recovery podcast does. Right? You know, we tend to do as well here, right? But it's kind of one of the reasons that I really liked you guys right off the get go. It's just different, right? So, yeah, right.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:13:02.296)
Mm-hmm.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:13:11.822)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And well, you know, we both believe very deeply in getting outside that sounding chamber. Because there's so many conversations that need to happen that should happen. And they, you know, often are stifled because of, you know, this, this side has this very narrow sort of

Chuck (01:13:35.632)
Yes.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:13:35.854)
idea, basically that siloing effect, you know, and like there's that disconnect between abstinence and harm reduction. So we really want to provide a space where people can come and talk about both sides of that. And anybody listening might be like, oh, well, I didn't really realize that that's what, you know, that is. So now you know, it serves that educational piece as well. So

Chuck (01:13:39.216)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (01:13:49.103)
Absolutely right.

Chuck (01:13:57.613)
Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:14:01.642)
Yeah, it's really important that we have all those different voices and different conversations and different guests, right?

Chuck (01:14:05.907)
Of course it is, right. We had Rob Tangay on who you guys have had as well, right. So, and he was on LinkedIn and shared one of the reels and he was talking about the stigma and as to why we don't ever commit people with serious SUD, like severe SUD, that, you know, well, they check all the boxes, right? Like all the boxes are there, these are all the same reasons you would for somebody with schizophrenia, right? And then he was saying it's stigma, right? That's why we don't. And

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:14:12.206)
Yep.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:14:25.364)
Mm-hmm.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:14:30.458)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (01:14:36.739)
A commentator came on and said, hey, Stigmar, are you serious? It's because this, and this. I replied back and said, but it seems like you're kind of making an argument for, you know, I'm neutral in all of this. And right away the next person to come in says, if you really care, you would do this. If you really cared, you'd do this. And I said, see, there's the problem, you guys. As soon as you start accusing the other side of not caring, right, or because they didn't behave exactly like you would, then the conversation ends.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:14:57.911)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Chuck (01:15:02.819)
And that is the problem, right? That's the entire problem right there, right? So how many great conversations don't happen because we're too busy, you know, accusing the other side of something, right? You know, right? So, yeah, yeah. I've done one episode with a harm reduction versus, and I'll put that in quotes, harm reduction versus an abstinence guy. Just to...

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:15:05.995)
Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:15:11.722)
Yeah, yeah, or we let our emotions take over. Yeah.

Chuck (01:15:27.419)
with an understanding that this was not going to be an argument, that this was going to be a conversation. But to find the two right people to pull that off, that's tough to do, right? Because it's such a passionate topic, you know? And, you know, if you've got somebody that's hardcore abstinence, you know, 12-step all the way, and, you know, somebody else who doesn't know any other way than harm reduction, and I was just like, this is going to get ugly. But it turned out rather well, but it's not something I'm in a hurry to do again because I know we're attempting fate. Yeah, yeah, right.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:15:34.926)
Oh yeah, yep. Yes.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:15:41.96)
Mm-hmm.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:15:47.147)
Yeah.

That's awesome.

Right, yeah, just poking the bear a little bit there, hey?

Chuck (01:15:55.747)
Absolutely, I can tell you that one side, and I won't say which, one side could have crushed the other a couple times and chose not to, and I was like, okay, right. Let's just, yeah, let's just put, yeah, right, so, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it was, it was a healthy conversation, for sure, for sure, so.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:16:06.19)
Very respectful debating, that's good.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:16:11.983)
Nice. Yeah. And those have to happen. But yeah, that is an intimidating forum to have such two extreme views at the same time. Like it's one thing to present them individually, but to have that open debate is kudos to you for. Yeah.

Chuck (01:16:19.999)
Yeah, right.

Chuck (01:16:25.763)
Mm-hmm. It's tough to do, right? Yeah. And don't get me wrong, arguments, you know, people love conflict in itself, but...

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:16:32.546)
Yeah.

Chuck (01:16:34.539)
And there's always a part of me that's, the guy who owns the Coliseum is doing quite well, right? But I just, you're not gonna do anybody any good by perpetuating that negativity at both sides, right? So, you know, and for me, and Dan, I'm sure it's the same for you, my mind has been changed a hundred times. Every time I get somebody on the show who's, you know, it's like, oh, I never thought of it that way. I never thought of it that way. You know, I go back and forth like a lunatic, right? So, I'm just thinking like, why don't people hear these conversations?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:16:44.714)
Right.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:16:51.576)
Mm-hmm.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:16:56.05)
Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:17:03.371)
Yeah.

Chuck (01:17:03.893)
like why aren't we having these conversations, right? So, yeah, yeah. Instead it's all yeah buts, you know? Yeah buts, those are my favorite arguments, right? You know, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah buts. Anyway, anyway. Yeah but, oh Jesus, oh horrible. That was almost a dad joke, Donna. Almost a dad joke. Anyway.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:17:06.038)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree 100%. Yeah. Yeah, but like the Flintstones. I'm a mom. I'm allowed to have mom jokes.

Chuck (01:17:28.207)
Yeah, you are so, you are so. Oh, I had a great one yesterday. It was, oh, where do bad rainbows go? Prism. It's a light sentence, but they have time to reflect. Me, me, me. That's horrible.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:17:37.454)
Oh my god. Ahhhh. Oh my god. That's great. I love it. Ha ha ha.

Chuck (01:17:48.003)
I told two people online and nobody thought it was as funny as I did. I'm just saying. So yeah. Yeah. Right. Anyway. Is there anything that you'd like to? Oh, you're still there? Okay. Your recording is not here. Or your video. It timed out. You used up your free trial or what? I got no signal.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:17:51.234)
Hmm. Well, they've got a bad sense of humor then.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:18:02.21)
Oh, I am.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:18:06.014)
Duts, I wonder...

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:18:11.163)
No?

Huh. That is very strange and I don't know how to work any of this. I, yeah, like the camera just turned off, like I don't know if, uh... Oh, sorry, Sue. I don't know if to...

Chuck (01:18:19.556)
Okay, so.

Chuck (01:18:24.755)
That's interesting.

Chuck (01:18:32.275)
Hmm. Okay.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:18:32.534)
We're gonna grab Dan. Oh, shit.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:18:52.266)
Well, poop. He's gone for the kids. Yeah.

Chuck (01:18:54.511)
Is it? No. Okay. Well, that's interesting. I mean, we're right at the end of the episode now. But... Okay.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:19:03.23)
Yeah. So in terms of life now, I mean, just doing the full like mom thing, supporting Dan in the background, doing like the domestic kind of stuff back at Legal Aid part time. So I've got my law kind of my toes back in the law world, legal world, I guess you could say. So, yeah. And, you know, Hard Knocks continues to grow and we're getting more and more opportunities. And it's just super awesome like this, you know.

Chuck (01:19:04.667)
That's interesting.

Chuck (01:19:22.619)
Okay, nice, nice.

Chuck (01:19:31.155)
That is awesome. Yeah, yeah. Well, I wouldn't have the opportunity. Remember, you guys are still the rock stars to me, right? So, you know, right? I still, anyway. When we do have a guest on the show, we do our daily gratitudes. I'm sure if you've heard that or not. So, I meant to tell you ahead of time. Actually, you know what? Edit, edit, edit. I'm just gonna, so I can find that later. There's daily gratitudes. And then at the end, you know the you are loved message.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:19:36.062)
Yeah.

Chuck (01:20:00.427)
you say the you are loved part. Yes, yes. So when I say use the words, you say you are loved. Okay, okay, cool. This is really weird without video. I'll just have to put a still up of you or something. Okay, okay. So back to it here. So that brings us to my favorite part of the show. That's the daily gratitude. When we do have a guest on the show, Donna, we like to get a couple out of you. What do you got for us today?

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:20:02.57)
Okay.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:20:06.611)
Okay.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:20:12.11)
Ha ha ha.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:20:27.146)
Well, I tend to be the type of person who, you know, I'm grateful for like everything. I am like, I remember early in my recovery being grateful for the dirty dishes in my sink, because at least now I have dishes, you know, having come from nothing, you know, so. Yeah, so. But, you know, I would say I'm, you know, I'm grateful for.

Chuck (01:20:43.266)
Your have-to's turn to get-to's.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:20:54.698)
for life for the ability to be here and be present for my family and be able to Connect with community and other people who may be still suffering or who are early in recovery and hopeful that You know my words might help somebody even just it's just one person and if that happens I am eternally grateful for that

Chuck (01:21:22.125)
Right, right, I agree, I agree.

And for myself, I'm always thankful for another great guest and that you have been. The conversation's gone an hour and 20, I didn't even realize it had gone that long. So that's excellent. That's a sign of a good interview for sure. And my final gratitude would be to you, the listeners, you guys, whatever you're doing, please keep doing it. I'm not gonna list off all the socials anymore because we are on literally every single one of them now. When you see the logo, do a like, comment, share, do the thing. If you're on Spotify, please make the comments. I really like that.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:21:33.358)
I'm sorry.

Chuck (01:21:52.979)
And every time you do any one of these things, you're getting me a little bit closer to living my best life. My best life is to make a humble living spreading the message. The message is this. If you are inactive addiction right now, today could be the day. Today could be the day that you start that lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call into detox, go to a meeting, do whatever the hell it is you need to do to get that journey started because it is so much better than the alternative. And if you have a loved one who's suffering in addiction right now.

You're just taking the time to listen to our conversation. If you could just take one more minute out of your day and text that person, let them know they're loved. Use the words.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:22:29.098)
You are loved.

Chuck (01:22:30.939)
That little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings them back.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:22:33.474)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (01:22:36.519)
Boom. Done. Yeah.

Donna - Hard Knox Talks (01:22:38.09)
Alright, cool beans.