Shannon Burness is back for a one of a kind conversation. Dr. Lisa and Shannon went to school together, and
Chuck (00:01.269)
Hello everybody. Welcome to another edition of the weekend ramp on the ashes to awesome podcast. I'm your host Chuck LaFlandre and with me in virtual studio today is my lovely cohost Lisa. How you doing today, Lisa?
Lisa (00:10.959)
I'm doing really good. Chuck, how are you?
Chuck (00:13.729)
Excellent, thank you, thank you. And we have a special guest with us today who is in episode 165. Oh, I'm gonna repeat that. We have a special guest with us today who is in episode 165, Shannon. How you doing today, Shannon?
Shannon (00:27.937)
I'm doing good, little bit tired, but I'm here.
Chuck (00:30.705)
Excellent, good stuff, good stuff. I'm really glad to have you back on. So we did talk about a little bit in episode 165, but to the listener, and peek behind the curtain a bit here, how Shannon and I connected was through Lisa. Lisa and Shannon were in the same high school together back in small town, Sherwood, or Sparwood, BC, I should say, right? And it was a funny thing that I picked up on in that they both kind of had some of the same feelings about...
growing up in a small town and some of the things that were going on, yet neither one of them would have had any idea about the others. And I thought that was kind of an interesting thing to talk about in that we just don't know what somebody else is going through, right? Especially, especially when we're kids, right? When we're young people and teenagers. Teenagers probably more so than anything because we, you know, whatever. We are who we are when we're kids. So thank you for coming back on to talk about that. And to get things kicking off here.
Why don't we start with you, Shannon, and kind of recap, if you could kind of give us a synopsis about what it was like being a kid for you, and then we can get Lisa's take on the same thing. How does that sound?
Shannon (01:34.824)
Yeah, that sounds good. Thanks for having me back, Chuck. So I grew up in Sparwood. I moved there in grade two. I...
I guess I kind of feel like I had a normal childhood for what Spurwood standards are, you know. I think a lot of the parents were doing the same things and a lot of the kids were doing the same things. But I really felt, like at an early age, that I didn't belong to any sort of group or core friendships that most people, I felt most people had.
Chuck (02:19.501)
Clicked up, as they say now. Is that what they say now? Clicked up. Something like that. I'm trying to be hip to the groove. I don't know, I don't know. Yeah, right, so, yeah, yeah.
Shannon (02:23.22)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I have no idea. I wouldn't be able to tell you. But yeah, so from very early on I was trying to find that acceptance, but the...
Lisa (02:25.318)
even know.
Shannon (02:38.676)
the cliques, like I had said previously, felt really hard to penetrate. And even if you were, it just kind of felt like it was temporary to be a part of. And I don't know if that's the same everywhere. I don't know if that's... my kids don't seem to struggle with that and they've grown up in a bigger centre.
Chuck (02:59.285)
What I can't help but wonder is how many of those other kids that were part of that clique maybe on a more permanent mindset or level in your mind felt the same way? How many of them? That's kind of why we're having this conversation.
Shannon (03:07.208)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, yeah, I don't know. There could have been...
Yeah, exactly. And you know, when you reached out to me and said that Lisa had listened to the episode and she was shocked that I felt that way and she kind of felt the same. I would have never guessed that. And she said she would never guess that about me. But I think as kids, we're chameleons and we fit into whatever situation. And, you know, I put up a very tough exterior. I was super angry.
clad walls that nobody could really penetrate. And that's what protected me from that in and out of the group type situation that I was exposed to early on.
Chuck (03:58.817)
Okay, Lisa, how was it for you?
Lisa (04:02.434)
Um, so, so I'm from Wabush, Labrador. And it was actually, I think Wabush actually, I know, I think it means, I think it's an Inuit word that means white rabbit, I think. But anyway, but it was a town similar size to Sparwood. The difference being that it was a
Chuck (04:08.333)
which isn't even, it sounds made up. It sounds made up, come on. Right? Sorry to all the Wubbushians, right?
Chuck (04:22.842)
Okay.
Lisa (04:29.846)
minute drive away from Labrador City, which had like I think growing up Wabush was around three, four thousand and then Lab City was I think around twelve thousand. So I mean they were almost kind of like one place so it was a bit bigger but nonetheless like Wabush itself was very similar size to Spurwood. So I lived there until I was almost 15. My parents like I think my dad moved
My mom moved there when she was about 12. For me, and again, but I was born there. So I don't know what someone who moved into Wabush would say about it. But for me, Wabush was like what you see of little towns glamorized on American television. You know, like my uncle lived up the road, my uncle lived up the other road, my grandparents lived up another road. It was like a strong sense of community.
Chuck (05:16.777)
Yeah, yeah, right.
Lisa (05:28.014)
people were friendly, and I loved living there. Like I still say to this day that leaving there, just shy of 15 was one of the hardest things I've ever gone through. Like I remember moving to Sparwood, and probably for a solid six to 12 months, I would lay in my bedroom and close my eyes and picture my room back in Labrador and try to pretend I was back home.
Chuck (05:41.386)
kidding.
Chuck (05:57.281)
Wow.
Lisa (05:57.782)
Like I was so sad, like I was sick to my stomach for, like I said, probably close to a year. Like I was just absolutely devastated. And Shannon talks about it in, you know, her episode, but there's these families in Sparwood that have been there for generations. There are, I think most of them are sort of Italian heritage families. And they kind of own the town, or that's what it feels like.
Shannon (06:21.323)
Yeah.
Chuck (06:27.818)
Yeah.
Lisa (06:28.522)
Um, and so it was a very, very hard place to try to fit in. Um, you know, it's like.
Chuck (06:37.505)
So, but I have to ask you, I think you already know though, somebody moving into Wabush, they're gonna feel the exact same way, right? Because your uncle lives up the road in another road and you're, just like you said, right? So, you know, yeah.
Lisa (06:48.874)
Yeah, I think the difference and again, I could be wrong, right? But there was a few kids who I remember moving to our school when I was like in grade seven, grade eight. And they did know again, I was totally misperceiving Shannon's experience in high school. So I could have, I could be misperceiving this too. But like I know kids who moved into
Chuck (07:08.265)
Right?
Chuck (07:15.531)
Yeah.
Lisa (07:18.526)
relatively quickly and be accepted relatively quickly. I don't remember us ever being outwardly explicitly mean to them. And those are people, because I'm still in contact with friends I grew up with in Labrador, and some of those kids that moved there in those early teen years are very good friends with people from Labrador. So that's why I say like I could be totally off, but for me
Shannon (07:27.116)
I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.
Chuck (07:44.841)
And I gotta say, from an outsider looking in, I imagine that you probably are, right? Because Shannon, did you think that she was having this amazingly hard time to adjust? Right? So, right.
Lisa (07:50.563)
Probably.
Shannon (07:54.312)
No, honestly I didn't. But yeah, I guess that's just perceptions that we put out there, right? And we just have no idea what's going on.
Chuck (08:05.385)
Yeah, we have no idea. And it's probably more magnified in teens, I would think, because teens are volatile people anyway, right? Unreasonable on a good day. But even as adults, you have no idea what the person next to you is going through. You just don't, right?
Shannon (08:11.635)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (08:21.302)
No. Yeah. And I feel like that's been highlighted for me in my job, because I'll see people in the Emerge and I'll look at them and go, if I saw you at the grocery store instead of the emergency department, I think you had your shit together. And you're in the Emerge telling me about how you don't have your shit together. Like, like, it's like really kind of in my face. But like, I remember the first one of the first days I was at our high school, during recess, people would just kind of hang out in the hallway.
Shannon (08:33.51)
Mm-hmm.
Chuck (08:33.514)
Right?
Chuck (08:36.977)
Right, right.
Shannon (08:37.32)
Yeah.
Lisa (08:48.014)
It was just like, that was like, ah, I dreaded recess. Cause I was just like, I would stand in the hallway by myself. And I still remember one of the first days I was standing there, just standing against the wall. And a girl came up to me who was two years older than me. And she's like, do you see those girls over there? And pointed to a bench of these girls sitting there. And she's like, they'll hate you. I'll never forget it. It was like one of my first memories, right? Kids are so mean. Like kids.
Chuck (09:09.873)
Whatever. Right. They really are.
Shannon (09:12.94)
Uh-huh. That's awful. And you know what? This is what.
kills me is like this shit burns into your brain and it affects who you are. You know like those interactions and those things affected how I have my friendships, who I feel safe with. You know like for a lot of high school I only hung out with guys because that's who I felt safe with. You know they didn't care what I was wearing, they didn't care what I
Chuck (09:25.629)
It truly does.
Lisa (09:47.958)
Yeah, I do think girls are meaner.
Chuck (09:50.397)
Oh, without a doubt, without a doubt, right? And here's the thing, and it goes through to, oh, go ahead.
Shannon (09:50.536)
Yeah. And I honestly, I am no angel. Like I made a fair share of girls' lives hell as well, you know, so that's where.
Lisa (09:52.828)
you know?
Shannon (10:03.832)
it comes where, that's where growth happens, right? Is you take responsibility for that. And I mean, part of my program is making amends. So I mean, there's a number of people that I've reached out to say, like, I'm sorry for that. And, you know, I hope you can forgive me, but if not, I need you to know that I'm sorry, you know? And hopefully that helps their healing journey, right?
Lisa (10:24.514)
Mm-hmm.
Chuck (10:29.005)
You've got to wonder how validating that is for somebody, 10 years after the fact, 15 years after the fact. I think so. Yeah.
Lisa (10:29.247)
And you hope.
Lisa (10:35.246)
Very, I think. Like you take the girl who said that to me, I would bet you a lot of money that she doesn't even remember saying that to me. But it's like, yeah, kids say things to each other. And especially when you're on the receiving end of stuff like that, like it does, like you don't forget that stuff. And I remember too, like as a kid in Labrador, like I felt...
Chuck (10:43.861)
Probably not, right? Yeah, yeah.
Shannon (10:43.976)
Right. Yeah.
Chuck (10:56.49)
Nope.
Lisa (11:04.33)
I don't think kids know who they are and I don't think they should. I think being a kid is about trying to figure out who you are. But I felt like when I, before moving to Spurwood, I...
I think it was just this natural evolution of finding myself that didn't feel forced or needed or expected. And then when I moved to Sparwood, it was so much more in my face somehow that I found myself searching, like actively searching and like almost trying things on and trying to figure out do I fit here? Do I fit there? And it's like as Shannon described, like you're just trying so hard to fit in somewhere.
And I think what happens is that when you find a place where they'll accept you, you take it on as an identity.
Chuck (11:51.913)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Shannon (11:53.518)
Whereas I was the party girl, so that's what I put on like a nice comfy t-shirt.
Lisa (11:53.701)
and
Chuck (11:58.129)
Yeah. Right, right. Which leads to all sorts of behaviors down the road, right? As you're well aware of. Yeah.
Lisa (11:59.667)
Yeah, yeah.
Shannon (12:04.752)
Yeah. I was also the angry fighter, which didn't serve me very well either. So.
Lisa (12:05.782)
Totally. And I think...
Chuck (12:14.917)
Yeah, right.
Lisa (12:15.006)
Yeah. But it's kind of sad. I feel like especially, you know, because who's listening to this podcast? It's going to be more adults.
Chuck (12:22.941)
Of course, right? If only we had that knowledge when we were 15 years old.
Shannon (12:24.649)
Okay.
Lisa (12:27.05)
Yeah, but like I feel like just generationally we're becoming more psychologically minded, right? But I feel like it's having these conversations with your kids. Like my daughter will come home, she's only six years old, you know, and there's this little boy, there's three kindergarten classes at her school, and there's a little boy in one of the classes, and for the last two years he's just kind of a bully. Like he's a bit of a hard case.
Chuck (12:36.074)
Yeah.
Lisa (12:55.722)
And I'll always say to her, cause she'll come and be like, you know, he pushed me or he kicked me or, and that's what the focus is. And I'll say to her, like, what do you think he might be feeling that he's doing that stuff? You know, like maybe he's having a hard time. Maybe there's something going on you don't know about. And I do feel like that's something parents can, can do with their kids. Like no one ever said that shit to me as a kid, you know?
Chuck (13:20.013)
Of course not. Who would have, right? Yeah, back then, yeah.
Shannon (13:20.373)
No.
Lisa (13:21.446)
Nobody ever encouraged me to think that someone who was being mean to me might actually be going through a hard time. And I was just a punching bag, you know. So I think there's a lot to be said for helping kids in that way because I don't think it's any different. I think teenagers today are going through the same stuff that we're talking about.
Chuck (13:26.197)
Yeah.
Chuck (13:29.716)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Chuck (13:44.029)
Of course they are, of course they are. And they've got a whole different dynamic now too, right? You think about being a kid, being a 15 year old today, how much of your life was spent in isolation due to COVID? Right? And I mean, even being, you have a 21 year old son, right, Shannon, how much of his, how many of his formative years were spent essentially isolated, right? You know?
Shannon (13:55.942)
Oh god.
Shannon (14:00.585)
Yeah.
Shannon (14:04.608)
Well, his grad year was the first year of COVID. So they left school on Friday and never went back. So they never got the goodbyes, they never got a graduation, they never got anything like that, right? Yeah.
Chuck (14:10.813)
Yep. Right? Right.
Chuck (14:17.021)
all of those things, eh? So just imagine, imagine what these kids are going through now, right? And all of them, the ones that were toddlers, the ones that were, you know, yeah, right? So we just don't have any damn idea what anybody's going through at any given time, right? And I think that's what this whole conversation comes down to, but, and it's so much of...
Shannon (14:22.024)
Yeah. Oh, and I'm seeing the after effects of it too. Yeah.
Shannon (14:31.3)
I know.
Mm-hmm.
Chuck (14:37.189)
speaking to our base, the addictions, the maladaptive behaviors that come as a result of what are, let's be honest, multi-traumas. All of that stuff is. Leaving Labrador for you. Yourself as well, Shannon. So much of what you talk about, those are all multi-traumas. And how those affect you as an adult are, I mean, geez, right? Fortunately, you have a program that kind of helps you address some of those things, but how many people go through life without that knowledge?
Shannon (14:44.722)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (14:48.798)
Yeah.
Shannon (14:53.332)
Yeah.
Shannon (14:58.027)
Yeah.
Shannon (15:02.078)
Yeah.
Oh, lots. Lots, yeah.
Lisa (15:06.41)
And I do think it's like very on topic with an addiction podcast because it's just this idea that kids, and I think some of it is just normative development, but I think it's that idea that kids are trying to figure out who they are. I think kids who don't know where they belong are at very high risk of turning to substances or turning to
Chuck (15:12.213)
without a doubt.
Lisa (15:32.95)
Like I remember in Sparwood, the people who were nicest to me from the beginning were the people I would describe as sort of the harder crowd, the ones that would hang out in the smoking pit. And it would have been very easy for me to just kind of slip into that and take that on as my identity.
Chuck (15:33.261)
Thanks for watching!
Chuck (15:44.043)
Yeah.
Shannon (15:45.658)
Okay.
Chuck (15:53.725)
It was like Shannon said, that it was like a comfy t-shirt, just to put that on and, you know, right? And for myself as well growing up, right? It was, until, if I didn't do this podcast, I would never have this much self-awareness, right? But because I've heard the same story, oh, not the same story, the same factor in the same part of the story, I just didn't feel like I belonged. Well, it was the same thing for me.
Shannon (15:58.378)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Shannon (16:09.393)
Yeah.
Chuck (16:15.773)
I just absolutely, I was all over the map. My brother was a jock and that was easy for him, but I was like, I was all over the place. And then partying became like, that's a really easy place, right? Because you've got that substance that makes you feel like you're cool and whatever. And boom, that's just, it's a natural, it's an easy place to default to if you're, you know, if you're having identity issues and whatever. And then from there, you know, yeah, you know.
Shannon (16:39.816)
Well, yeah, exactly. And, but I do believe that some teenagers, what do you call normal drinkers? I can't remember. Muggles, muggles? Yeah, like I still think.
Chuck (16:49.397)
Social, drinkers? Muggles? Oh yeah, I call, everybody's a muggle, yeah. Yeah.
Lisa (16:52.398)
Yeah
Shannon (16:54.972)
Yeah, I still think some teenagers are that and some teenagers have crossed that threshold into abuse, right? So I was having this conversation with my daughter, so my daughter is 17, and we were talking about drinking and she was like, of course she drinks, she goes to parties and stuff like that. And she said to my husband and I, who both don't drink, she was like, yeah, you know, I just don't like that feeling of not being aware of my surroundings. And you know, as soon as I say something where I'm like, oh, why did I just say that? She's like, that's when I switched to water and that's it.
that's when I, you know, will stop drinking. And I was like, I never had that ever in my life. I just like, that was have another drink. Like, especially if I said something stupid, like, yeah, get me another beer. Yeah, so I don't know where she picked that up, but I was like, I'm really proud of you for doing that. Yeah.
Chuck (17:28.885)
Wow Yep in for a penny in for a pound. Let's go right like double down Well, see you
We've talked about that nature versus nurture thing, right? So at some point, and Lisa describes it in her choices quote, I think I played that for you in our episode Shannon, if not, I'll play it for you again here shortly. Yeah, I did, I did, right? Maybe I'll play it anyway, because it's just such a beautifully said piece, but that nature versus nurture. At some point, nurture has everything to do with it up until they go to a party and start drinking, right?
Shannon (17:54.824)
Yes, yes, yeah.
Chuck (18:12.158)
And then that's when the nature kicks in, right? When nurture doesn't have, you know. Perfect example, yep, yep.
Shannon (18:14.816)
Right.
Lisa (18:15.106)
Well, you take my brother and I, right? Like I was like Shannon's daughter. Like I remember, cause yeah, in Sparwood, that was kind of what we did as teenagers. We would go to bonfire parties and people would drink and there'd be music and I would go to those parties. And like I drank a bit in high school, but I would often lie. I would pretend I was drinking and I wouldn't.
And I never really liked it. Like, I still remember the first time I drank, it was at a house party in Sparwood. And I just remember like the room spinning and thinking, oh my God, like this is terrible. Like, I don't like this. And then you take my brother, who had a very different experience with substances. And we grew up in the same house.
Shannon (18:56.863)
Yeah.
Chuck (19:04.699)
Yes.
Lisa (19:07.17)
You know, obviously, even within the same home, every kid has a different experience in that home. But there's genetically, you know, both of my mom's parents were alcoholics. There's definitely a genetic thing as well. And I do believe that my brother, you know, he got certain genes, I didn't. And I think there was a genetic predisposition there on top of other factors.
Lisa (19:36.034)
But, you know, and he also moved when he was a teenager. Like we left Sparwood and he left Sparwood about the same age I arrived in Sparwood. And I think it was the same thing. Like you go somewhere, you don't feel like you fit in. And, you know, and you find substances, just take away the disinhibition and, you know, it just.
Shannon (19:36.117)
Yeah.
Shannon (19:46.251)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (19:56.256)
Where did you guys move to? Or where did he move to? Mm-hmm.
Chuck (19:56.723)
Yeah.
Lisa (19:59.378)
So I, the year we finished high school, him and my parents moved to Moncton, well Riverview, New Brunswick, but it's just a little town next to Moncton, New Brunswick. And that's where he got into partying. Like, I mean, it might have happened if we'd stayed in Sparwood, but again, I always wonder because I think my brother is, has always been a bit more anxious than me, like even as a little, little boy.
Shannon (20:11.204)
Mm, okay.
Shannon (20:15.241)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (20:18.56)
Yeah.
Shannon (20:26.601)
Right, yeah.
Lisa (20:26.982)
And so, you know, I think for him moving at 15 and he was also the kid though, who my parents would tell you he had an easy time moving. Like they knew full well that I was not happy when we moved to Spurwood. Whereas David was always like, eh, like whatever, sure. I don't care. But I think he was an internalizer and I do think he struggled with anxiety. And so then he moved to a new town and he started partying. Um, and I wonder, you know, I've never actually asked him.
Shannon (20:37.525)
Yeah.
Chuck (20:38.118)
Hahaha
Shannon (20:46.464)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (20:52.531)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (20:56.098)
But I wonder if again for him it was a thing of, it made that transition easier, being in a place where he didn't know anybody and, and that's where it began. Yeah, yeah.
Shannon (21:02.409)
Right.
Shannon (21:06.32)
Yeah, it's possible. Yeah, that's the...
Chuck (21:06.523)
Hmm.
Right? Right.
Shannon (21:10.836)
shitty thing about addiction and substance abuse is, you know, if you could pinpoint the exact time, you'd never let that happen, but you can't, you know. But I do, I do actually feel like getting back to the small town. I do actually feel, because I've talked to numerous people about small towns and stuff like that. I do feel like the Elk Valley has a different vibe. Like I just feel like it's hard. It's a hard place to grow up and you have to be kind of a hard person
Chuck (21:20.242)
No, no, unfortunately you cannot.
Shannon (21:40.61)
to navigate it, you know. And as we've kind of touched on, you know, probably a lot of us felt that. I, whether...
you were accepted or not, you know, I was, I have, I play on a ladies ball team and one, a girl that grew up in Sparwood also plays on the ball team. And she was kind of like me, like really, we're actually quite similar, like a really hard exterior, you know, the classic resting bitch face that didn't bode well with the older girls because we're supposed to respect them for some reason, other than the fact that they're bitches, but I don't know, you know?
sitting at our year-end banquet with all these other girls, and lots of them grew up in the city, like grew up in Calgary, because they're all locals, and they couldn't believe the stories that we were telling them. Like, my friend, I don't know if Shawn's gonna use her name, but my friend was like, yeah, the first time I saw Shannon, we were down in the...
It might have been the Mekons, it might have been those apartments beside the Black Nugget. But anyways, we went there to beat up a girl and she was there and she saw us come in and beat up this girl. And one of the girls that was with me was pregnant and fighting, you know, like this is just stuff that happens there, you know? And these girls were flabbergasted. They're like, we've never even seen a fighting real person. And I was like, this is just normal stuff that happened there. It was like the fights and watch your back. And did you say that about me?
Lisa (23:11.582)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (23:12.438)
you know?
Chuck (23:13.277)
And I was in a small town as well, like Strathmore, just outside of Calgary, right? Same thing though, absolutely the same thing. Oh, without a doubt, yeah, it was fights where, yeah. I can't even tell you how many times I was in a fight at lunch or after school or whatever, like that was just normal kind of happenings back then. Maybe, right, maybe it was a part, yeah, right.
Shannon (23:16.828)
Yeah. Was it? Hmm.
Lisa (23:17.357)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (23:28.756)
Well, maybe it was just people like us.
Lisa (23:31.914)
See, I have the same experience as Shannon though, where I feel like, and again, maybe I sort of idealize Labrador because it was my home, but I have the same experience where when I've talked to people about this, that the Elk Valley is somewhat unique.
Chuck (23:50.625)
Could be, yeah, it could be. Yeah, I'm certainly not trying to take away from that. Similar experience, right? Yeah.
Lisa (23:54.279)
Yeah.
Shannon (23:55.883)
Well...
Even my, so my son, who's 21, he went back for, so Sparwood has this party when you graduate, it's called Stag and Hens, so Stag for the guys, Hens for the girls. So he went down for his, cause he moved up to Okotoks when he was 14 maybe? So he went back to party with his friends that were graduating, right? And when he came back, it was like, it was like he was just like this wounded puppy, like coming back home and he was like,
Like he got in a fight, he's never fought before, like drinking, cars driving everywhere. He was just shell shocked as to like, and I'm like yeah, and that happens every weekend there. This isn't like, just this is the weekend for partying. That happens every weekend and he was like I can't believe it because that just doesn't happen here.
Chuck (24:39.074)
Yeah.
Chuck (24:46.569)
No kidding, eh? No kidding. Yeah. Jeez. Yeah.
Shannon (24:47.856)
Yeah, and so it's still happening there. You know, my daughter, her boyfriend lives in the past and she goes down there and she said, girls are still fighting down there and that just doesn't happen up here, you know? And actually, yeah.
Chuck (25:00.479)
Wow.
Lisa (25:02.51)
There's like a mentality to it, right? And like we've talked about, it's like some of those families have been there forever and they're still there, you know? And hey, people are happy there, good on you. Like, you know, everyone stay in your lane, do your thing, live your life, and if that works for you, awesome. But I feel like because of that, it's, like how does it change when it's like the same families generation after generation, just kind of doing the things that they're doing? I don't know.
Shannon (25:08.616)
Yeah.
Shannon (25:16.48)
Yeah.
Shannon (25:31.641)
Yeah. Well, I will say, like, I sobered up there, so I really feel like I kind of outgrew the town, like, when I was there, um, and raising the kids from whatever grade. We moved there when Simon was in kindergarten and moved up here when he was in grade nine. It served our family quite well, you know, like the...
Lisa (25:31.695)
It's interesting.
Shannon (25:51.544)
sports were, he played hockey, soccer, like all those things that they did but once it hit a certain age it was like the jocks would become the minority and so we needed to sort of expand their horizons but then when I started in recovery I feel like I outgrew the town because I was kind of looking around it. I mean it is an absolutely gorgeous place, it's so beautiful but I don't hike, I don't hunt, I don't skidoo, like I don't do any of these things that people travel from
Lisa (26:12.814)
So pretty.
Shannon (26:21.418)
do, you know?
Chuck (26:22.989)
Yeah, yeah.
Lisa (26:24.59)
Did you find it hard, Shannon, getting sober there? Just because they had so much history for you, like going back to being a teenager there and partying there. And I guess I find it amazing that that's where you got sober versus a lot of people who would leave the place that they had so much history using, and yet you did it there, which I think speaks to how strong you are, because I feel like that would be harder.
Shannon (26:31.488)
Yeah. OK.
Shannon (26:39.77)
I know.
Shannon (26:43.521)
Right.
Yeah.
Shannon (26:49.884)
Yeah, well, thanks, yeah. Well, I didn't really, I think I was so ready to just do it for me and my family that I didn't really find it that difficult. And like my friend group was not the same friend group I had in high school when I was there, you know? But I also, it was...
Lisa (26:54.978)
But yeah, I'm just curious what your thought is.
Chuck (27:15.117)
in the recovery community there? Was, is it a strong community there?
Shannon (27:19.644)
It is, like there's lots, there's quite a few people with long-term sobriety.
Chuck (27:25.745)
Okay.
Shannon (27:27.604)
We get the people. So one of the main employers is a mine there, and lots of people go on what they call the program, where if they admit they have a problem, they go away for treatment, and then they have to be on the program for a year where they can be subject to random testing. And if they fail, then they have to pay back like the fees for going to treatment.
Chuck (27:44.316)
Yep.
Shannon (27:50.812)
So we would get a lot of those people in, you know, and you kind of cross your fingers and hope they do better. And I mean, it was lots of people that I knew and had known for years, you know? But coming back to me outgrowing the town, that was also part of it, you know? I outgrew my story that people thought they knew was my story, you know? I got tired of seeing the same people that are judgmental or thought they knew who I was
Chuck (28:01.292)
Yeah.
Shannon (28:20.926)
that persona I put on for so many years, right?
Chuck (28:24.469)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's interesting.
Lisa (28:26.479)
And did you feel supported there? Like when you started to say like, no, I'm not going to the bar, or you'd go to the bar, but say I'm not drinking. Like, did you feel like people were like good for you? Or were people like, oh, come on, Shannon, like, drink with us or?
Shannon (28:40.604)
Yeah. Well, I, it was kind of 50-50 probably, you know, um, there was definitely the people like not even one, come on, just have one, that sort of thing. But, you know, I had really strong rules for myself. And if people started with that, I'd just leave because I just know that, not that I'm going to cave to peer pressure, but I owe nobody an apology or an explanation for what I'm doing. Right. And so I'm not going to sit there.
Chuck (29:01.633)
Right.
Chuck (29:07.578)
No, no. And why would you put yourself, why would you hang around people that were that unsupportive of you anyway? Right? Right. Yeah. What a toxic environments. Yeah.
Shannon (29:11.504)
Exactly, exactly. Yeah. So, yeah. So I think it's like that anywhere. Do you know what I mean? And I think that's why a lot of people that are in recovery feel like they lose their friends, because they're not their friends. They're drinking buddies, you know.
Chuck (29:28.117)
Well, and I think that right there, I've wrestled with that a lot, partially because I was a dealer for a very long time, and I had a lot of people around me that were there for the money and the dope and the lifestyle and all of that, right? There are always people around like that. So when I would stop any of those couple of kind of big segments in my life where I was, okay, I'm getting out of the business, and I would be heartbroken, the two times specifically, just crushed. Where the hell is everybody?
Shannon (29:36.769)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (29:42.262)
Mm-hmm.
Chuck (29:58.357)
Right? So I really had to think about that for a long time. And I don't think it's as malicious. I'm not sure. I think that your friend, because you have something in common, I don't think that anybody was being so malicious, like, okay, well, I'm just using him for his dope and his money. I think it was just kind of a natural thing to happen because I had dope and money and they were into partying, right? I don't think there's any sort of malintent there, right? Exactly, right? Yeah.
Shannon (29:59.476)
Yeah.
Shannon (30:08.849)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (30:14.744)
Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, for sure. Cause that is friendship. What's this friendship? It's you have something in common, you know? I've had many different friends with different stages in my children's life. Like the hockey parents were my friends and then the figure skating moms were my friends. But then they move on and then I don't talk to them, you know? My neighbors, that sort of thing.
Chuck (30:32.157)
Yes, right, yeah. Yeah, right, so I think it's really easy for people to have resentments towards people in their life who were their drinking buddies and don't talk to them anymore, right, or they're partying, whatever. But I, you know, no, right, and that's just it, right? Like what fun is this gonna be? Like, you know, yeah, right? Am I gonna play quarters by myself or crying out loud? That's no fun, right? Yeah, no, yeah, right. Yeah.
Lisa (30:38.519)
Yep.
Shannon (30:44.168)
Mm-hmm.
But I mean, let's be honest, I didn't want to hang out with sober people. Yeah. Right?
Yeah, right? Like, yeah.
Lisa (31:00.566)
And the other thing I, so I feel like there's an added complexity to trying to get sober in a small town because it's harder to avoid the drinking buddies or whatever. And I also feel like, again, because in a small town, everyone, like everyone goes to the same places, you know, you go to the same restaurants, you go to the same pubs, you go to the same parties. I feel like to support, and this is just me talking more from, I guess, experience in
Shannon (31:05.845)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (31:19.595)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (31:30.214)
in working with patients in the hospital and stories have been told. But for friends to support you when you express your intentions to be sober, I think it makes them look at their own drinking and they don't want to do that. You know? And so that's why I think it promotes this, oh, just have one, you know, it's almost like minimizing you saying, look, like, I think I struggle with alcohol use disorder and I can't just have one.
Shannon (31:44.537)
Mm-hmm.
Chuck (31:45.811)
Who the hell wants to look? Yeah, right? Yeah, yeah.
Shannon (31:48.553)
Yeah.
Shannon (31:57.492)
Yeah.
Lisa (31:58.462)
And they don't want to acknowledge or admit that because then they have to go, hmm, like, where am I? Like, what's my, you know, where am I at with my drinking kind of thing?
Shannon (32:01.349)
Okay.
Chuck (32:06.363)
Yeah. Mystery does love company.
Shannon (32:06.99)
Yeah. Oh yeah, I'm sure that happens because I've had numerous friends reach out and be like, oh yeah, that's something I want for myself. Or where do I start? I think I drink too much. And
You know, so I kind of tell them the steps I took to get there. But I also tell them, like, I am in no means the keeper of your drinking. So with you coming to me, I don't want this to be a thing. You know, like, don't think that I am judging you if you take another drink. Like, I just I'm here if you need me. But I want it to be very clear that I'm not the keeper of your sobriety and I'm not going to be keeping tabs.
going to be doing anything like that.
Chuck (32:50.877)
Isn't that though, that is something I struggle with so much, Shannon, trying to make clear to people. So, because there's, you know, people in my life that are still using it. It's like, hey, you never need to lie to me. I will not judge you, I promise. They lie, the very next words, right? You know, and it's like, getting people to understand that I'm not here to judge you, man. Like, I'm just here to help you out if you need it, you know. It's such a hard thing for people to accept. It really is, right? You know?
Shannon (32:56.489)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Shannon (33:05.undefined)
Right. Yeah.
Shannon (33:12.704)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (33:18.262)
But that's because they're projecting their own judgment of themselves onto you. Like, I really believe that. Like, I think that, you know, if they have another drink, they're judging their choice to have another drink and they will project it out, you know?
Shannon (33:22.224)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Chuck (33:22.541)
Fair enough, fair enough.
Yeah.
Shannon (33:30.57)
Right.
Chuck (33:33.705)
Yeah, and there's that shame factor, which of course we've talked about a lot in Ash is Awesome, right? You know, how shame is such an extrinsic emotion, right? Just, you know, what a horrible thing, right? We've done Shannon, I don't imagine that you've had the opportunity or whatever, but we've done an entire episodes about shame versus, what am I, guilt, right? And how, what Ryan Bathgate has told us and you know, on the Klyscope Wednesdays, what do you,
Shannon (33:33.938)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (33:37.611)
Yeah.
Shannon (33:42.488)
Oh gosh, yes. Yeah.
Lisa (33:44.184)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (33:54.958)
guilt.
Chuck (34:02.509)
He's helped us to see anyway is that shame is it's not part of the human experience That is something put on to you that is not it's not something that comes from within that comes from everybody around you Right guilt is a driver guilt is a good thing, right? But shame is a wet blanket of shit is what that is and it just keeps you down. It's the boot on your neck It's the all the things right, you know, you know So if we can find a way to get shame out of our head life gets better really fast, right?
Shannon (34:09.508)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (34:13.064)
Mm-hmm. Hmm.
Shannon (34:20.769)
Oh yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (34:31.674)
Yeah, I mean, I think everybody, you're not going to go through life without being guilty, right? Because we all make mistakes. And, you know, if you've got a conscience, you're going to feel badly about making a mistake. But shame is like believing you're bad, like you're intrinsically bad, you know? And no one's intrinsically bad. And so, you know, I think that we should all experience guilt in our life when we fuck up. But I think...
Chuck (34:36.489)
Yeah, of course we do, yeah.
Shannon (34:37.589)
Yeah.
Chuck (34:46.833)
Yeah, it's horrible. Yeah.
Shannon (34:46.934)
Yeah.
Chuck (34:51.241)
No, no, no.
Shannon (34:51.495)
now.
Chuck (34:57.167)
Yeah.
Lisa (34:58.194)
in a perfect world, I think you go through life and you don't ever have to feel shame. But, you know, but it happens. Totally.
Shannon (34:58.832)
Yeah.
Shannon (35:02.508)
Mm-hmm.
Chuck (35:03.102)
No, but we do anyway.
Shannon (35:05.54)
I was reading this essay, I think it was an essay that Will Wheaton, do you know the actor Will Wheaton? He was in Stand By Me. And Star Trek, yeah. I wasn't a Trekkie, so I didn't know him from that, but... Oh, okay. Oh, right.
Chuck (35:13.149)
Yeah, from Star Trek, yeah. Yep, yep, yep. Neither was I, I just happened to know. Because of Big Bang Theory, right? Will Wheaton's the, yeah, he has a reoccurring role in that as well, so anyway, go ahead.
Lisa (35:15.122)
Oh, yeah.
Shannon (35:24.028)
Yeah, so he talks about and he's very open about, you know, his relationship with his parents and how it's not very good and stuff like that. And he has this essay that I really spoke to me about shame. And one of them was, you know, this summer, the neighbor had a niece visiting or something and he had this huge crush on her, you know, and he thought he'd go out and ride his bike and show off in front of her. And he just was like, feeling good about that, you know. And then he came home after one of these show off.
on his bike type thing and his dad started making fun of him for oh so big man going out like I can't remember exactly what it was but he's like the shame I felt in that just ruined that whole experience for me you know like and just in that moment he just took any joy I had out of that feeling and created this playback of feeling like he looks stupid feeling like it was a dumb idea
Chuck (36:23.189)
Which, which, small tree trauma, right? Right there, that alone could have just this everlasting effect on somebody's life. You know, people, yeah, yeah.
Shannon (36:23.822)
to me. Yeah.
Shannon (36:30.388)
Yeah, exactly. So that's what I thought of when you were talking about that.
Lisa (36:34.981)
How did you relate to that Shannon? Where did that tie into your experience of shame?
Shannon (36:40.372)
Well, I think a lot. Yeah, I know, right?
Chuck (36:42.689)
Here's the doctor coming out, eh? Right? That I've never heard you ask. I love that you did. I totally do. Now, I'm not Shannon, so maybe she's not loving it, but that's a... What a great question. Yeah.
Shannon (36:49.824)
Yeah.
Shannon (36:53.588)
Yeah. So it really touched me because I feel like growing up there was...
lots of different authority figures, whether it my parents, teachers, older children, you know, coaches or whatever, that just with a word could just cut you like instantly in a moment, you know, whether they know they're doing it or not. They think they're being funny, they're doing it for laughs. And, you know, I really find that was how people fit in Spark Word 2, is making fun of
Shannon (37:33.78)
bonding experience of laughing over how stupid so-and-so looks or can you believe they did that or oh he tried to Do this and you know like play basketball play volleyball, you know I remember one time I was in elementary school and I was on the volleyball team and
Somehow, like I was on the court and somehow the ball went like straight above me and I didn't see it, right? So teammates everybody's yelling like it's above you and then it like dropped right beside me and That was a mistake right but the shame I felt from the reaction from my teammates was like You know and that stuck with me, you know, and that's one of those moments
Chuck (38:17.025)
The fact that you're talking about it right now, 30 years later, whatever, right? Like, yeah, right.
Shannon (38:19.972)
Exactly, right? And I remember that. And that paved... I didn't... once I hit high school, I didn't play sports because that path was carved for me. You're not good at it. You're not... Like, why even try, right?
Chuck (38:32.425)
Kidding, kidding. See, now this conversation here, I kinda wish Mike was with us now, Mike Miller on, who is, he's the owner at, co-owner at Yachter Treatment Center in Thailand, where if all goes well, I'll be soon. He talks a lot about, he knows so much about trauma, but, so I'll speak as loosely as I can about the whole thing. Trauma doesn't happen to you, it happens within you. So that small experience.
Shannon (38:45.793)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (38:52.351)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (38:52.418)
Thank you.
Chuck (39:01.645)
it was 20 years ago, it was 30 years ago, whatever. That's an easy thing to say, well, it was 30 years ago. But the flip side of that is for 30 years, that's been snowballing in your brain. So you grab a few of those things together, that happened in junior high years or in high school years, they start snowballing in your brain. And yeah, it was 30 years ago, it was 30 fucking years of it snowballing into something in my brain that I don't even know was happening. And then so trying to address those traumas, wow.
Shannon (39:12.832)
Yeah.
Shannon (39:24.156)
Yeah.
Chuck (39:29.429)
right, you know, like, yeah, yeah.
Lisa (39:31.308)
Yeah.
Shannon (39:31.456)
Well, that's just it because how many, if somebody that overthinks like me, where you just lay down and your brain turns on, you know, that's 30 years of shitty self-talk, right? Mm-hmm.
Chuck (39:39.635)
Yeah.
Chuck (39:45.217)
Yep.
Lisa (39:45.698)
It's so funny even hearing you say that like an over thinker like my perception of Shannon in high school was easy going.
Lisa (39:58.794)
not affected, didn't give a shit, that nothing would penetrate, nothing. And it's actually interesting because like I said, I don't have close relationships with anybody that I went to high school with in Sparwood. And there were people that I hung out with. And again, it was trying to sort of fit in somewhere. And then it's so funny because if I think about the things Shannon has described,
Shannon (40:03.692)
Great.
Shannon (40:12.179)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (40:28.566)
Like I actually feel like we probably had more in common than the people I was spending my time with. Like.
Shannon (40:34.176)
Yeah.
Chuck (40:34.421)
And more than that, with everybody around you, with everybody around you, you've got these things in common. Because if you two felt like that, what are the odds that you're the only two felt like that and you end up on the podcast together? You could damn well bet that almost every other kid around you felt the same way. Even the hardest case, even the hardest case. Which leaves me going back to my school years going, holy shit, I wonder about so many of these other guys who you thought had it together. But, you know.
Shannon (40:46.825)
Yeah.
Shannon (40:51.228)
Yeah.
Lisa (40:51.647)
Yeah.
Shannon (41:00.892)
Yeah, yeah, that's true, you know? Yeah, I think so too, and that's why I tried to raise my kids to be kind instead of anything above all, right? Because it's hard. Yeah, like, the, yeah. I don't know, like, I don't, the school, I don't have a lot to do with the school. My husband's not allowed to be on the call list.
Chuck (41:14.053)
If I write, right, it truly is, you know.
Chuck (41:30.057)
Why not? Yeah, yeah, why not? Now let's talk about that for a minute. Sorry to, and I'm sorry, your husband's name? Pat, okay, I saw him on, he liked or commented or something on one of the posts, and I was like, who is this guy? And I, so I, and I, which I tend to do quite often, right? I was like, oh, that's who my, okay, so yeah, right. Okay, okay, yep. Yep.
Lisa (41:30.678)
know that story.
Shannon (41:36.832)
Pat. Yeah.
Shannon (41:43.465)
Go ahead.
Lisa (41:47.937)
Yeah.
Shannon (41:48.028)
Yeah, so he's a big giant, but yeah, he had a really shady school experience growing up. So he has a hard time. And he is very loyal to his family. Like, if there's a hill he's gonna die on, it's for us. And he's fair, but he will stand up for the kids. Like so many times, you know, if the school phones me, I like, sorry, there was a fly there. I like...
We'll take it and be like, you know, okay, let's learn from this, blah, blah. And he'll just be like, no, I'm not talking to them about that because that's not important to me. Like, you know, it's just not happening. Like that's fine with me. And so, yeah, he's not on the call list, but he also made one of the, the principles in Sparrow would cry ones, so that's part of it too. Yeah. As a parent.
Chuck (42:28.125)
Hahaha
Chuck (42:34.093)
Yep. Hmm.
Chuck (42:43.791)
Wow. As a parater, as a student. Really? Wow. Yeah.
Shannon (42:48.348)
Yeah, so... Yeah While going, I'll be honest going from Sparwood to Okotoks the difference in schooling was mind-blowing like Oh, like I couldn't even believe how much more like in this school here. There's like a quiet room. There's a loud room uh, my son has You know kind of
Lisa (42:48.942)
I feel like maybe that was deserved. So I'm like...
Chuck (43:00.309)
is that without a doubt I can only, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Shannon (43:14.76)
I don't know, like he needs extra help sometimes, my youngest, right? And they just accommodate that. It's not shame, it's not anything. Like, you know, even when my oldest was going to school in Sparwood, the discipline was to write lines still.
Chuck (43:28.989)
Right, really, right, like no kidding. Well, I can tell you, something I've talked about, I think in the show, certainly I told you about before, Lisa, was my stepson with, he was super hyperactive, like super hyperactive. The solution in small town Saskatchewan, and like thousand people town, right, like it was like really small, was to box him in at his desk. They actually put a cardboard shroud on his desk so he couldn't talk or see anybody else.
Lisa (43:30.05)
I know, like what the hell does that do for a kid? Like...
Shannon (43:46.977)
Mm-hmm.
Chuck (43:57.853)
and then they took away recess. This is five years ago, six years ago maybe. This is just recently, if you can imagine. The day that happened, they got to meet his new stepdad. I can tell you that. No, no, I'm sorry that's not acceptable, weren't my words, but it was what I was trying to communicate.
Shannon (43:58.944)
Wow. Oh my God. I can't even with that.
Shannon (44:06.24)
That's mind blowing.
Shannon (44:12.048)
right? And that would be my husband too, like I'm sorry but that's not acceptable, you know? My nephew... Well you might not have had like the communication skills back then that you'd have now right? But um...
Lisa (44:16.991)
No.
Chuck (44:28.081)
Well, one would argue that they were a little sharper and better beefing, right? You know, I got my fucking point across, I can tell you that much.
Shannon (44:32.452)
Yeah Yeah, yeah, so I also have a nephew who's the same age as my son and he went to school in Sparwood as well And I remember one recess. I think he was in grade five. He came in took his took off went to class and the teacher there Who probably should have? Retired ten years ago said like why is your hair so messy and he was like well I just took off your teeth. No you did that on purpose go to the office Like sent him to the office because his hair was messy
Chuck (44:57.713)
Wow, right? Yep. It's like being in a time capsule for crying out loud, right? You know? Right? Yeah. When I was in grade six in Strathmore, that was my first year out there. A kid came to school, Billy, oh, he was a he was a badass kid, but came to school with these like cut jeans. They're like with tears in them intentionally or whatever. And pink hair, he got sent home. They actually sent him home for that because it was like unacceptable.
Shannon (45:02.14)
I can't even. Oh it is! I always say that! Sparrow doesn't move down to the 80s, like in years. Yeah.
Lisa (45:04.563)
Yeah.
Shannon (45:12.417)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (45:20.131)
Oh yeah.
Lisa (45:23.63)
Yeah.
Chuck (45:26.137)
unacceptable and the hair was the big deal right like it was like are you kidding me you know and even back then i thought that's archaic like come on guys right you know yeah right yeah of course they were given the strap like two years before i got there still too so right
Shannon (45:32.62)
because that affects his learning so much.
Lisa (45:32.966)
Yeah, exactly. And also, I feel like.
Lisa (45:42.054)
And I feel like, again, with this idea that kids are trying to figure out who they are, right? They're trying to find their way. It's like, encourage them, like, celebrate their curiosity, celebrate them trying things out, you know? Like, who the hell cares if he's got pink hair? Like, what is that? Who's that hurting? You know? And do you think his hair is going to stay pink for the rest of his life? No, it's not. Like, he'll probably be over it in two days, you know? Like, yeah.
Chuck (45:47.029)
Yeah.
Chuck (45:56.499)
Absolutely.
Shannon (45:57.652)
Yes.
Chuck (46:02.261)
Yeah, right.
Shannon (46:04.8)
Yeah.
Chuck (46:07.969)
Probably not. No, no. Yeah, right, yeah.
Shannon (46:09.56)
Even if it is, who cares? Yeah.
Shannon (46:14.481)
Yeah.
Lisa (46:14.678)
Absolutely. And so Shannon, I wanted to tell you too that like listening to you describe the morning that you decided you were going to stop drinking, like Chuck will tell you, I don't get emotional very often. And like listening to that, I was like, pause, I was like, it's just like, I felt so, I don't know, like so affected by that. And I think in part, because I had this perception of you that
Chuck (46:28.458)
No.
Chuck (46:31.792)
Ha ha
Shannon (46:36.628)
Thank you.
Lisa (46:44.594)
at all your reality, like hearing the emotion and the sensitivity and the vulnerability and the shame that you were experiencing in that moment, like it just like, even talking about it, like it just hit me like a brick.
Shannon (46:46.91)
Yeah.
Shannon (47:00.008)
Yeah, it's making the mushrooms feel...
Chuck (47:02.575)
Hahaha, fuck sakes. Stop it!
Lisa (47:06.355)
Right?
Shannon (47:07.132)
Cause yeah, I know. Well, that's one of the beautiful things about recoveries. You can feel these emotions too, right? And I had lots of people tell me that made them emotional. Even my nephew, when he was driving to work, he's like, listen to your podcast, auntie was awesome. He said, but I was driving to work and I thought, fuck, I'm going to cry.
Lisa (47:14.337)
Yeah.
Chuck (47:28.218)
Which is, Shannon, I gotta tell you, remember before we were recording, I was about to say something that was relevant. Now I remember. Your episode brought more people to the website than almost anybody ever. Ever. Yep. It was like, holy shit. I was like completely, you should see the spike in the graph, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's totally what that's about.
Shannon (47:33.992)
Yeah. OK.
Shannon (47:41.524)
Really? Oh my God.
Shannon (47:48.18)
That's crazy.
Lisa (47:48.43)
I feel like we need to interject here a hashtag you are love.
That's what that is. That's what it is. It's people who love Shannon, who want to hear her story. Yeah.
Chuck (47:56.389)
100%, right? Yep. Yeah, yeah. Like it was, yeah, I was completely blown away. The website is a few months old now. So it's, you know, to say to the website, and I think he might be first place in the website, as a matter of fact, right?
Shannon (47:56.41)
Yeah.
Shannon (48:01.364)
Mm-hmm. Thank you. That's really special.
Shannon (48:13.237)
Yeah.
Shannon (48:20.992)
Do I win something for that? Like do I? Yeah. Ha ha.
Chuck (48:22.729)
Well, you got another appearance on the podcast. That much you get for sure. Right? Yeah. Right. Um, it's someday I'll hand out prizes, right? You know, how about I give you a 10% off on any hoodie you want. Yeah. Please order a hoodie. I need the money. Right. No, which is, and for me, that's, it was, it was surprising.
Shannon (48:27.132)
I like it! I'm happy with that.
Shannon (48:38.975)
Yeah, right? Helps both of us, yeah.
Chuck (48:48.553)
Because you were in the numbers with somebody like Missy Humes, and I'm sure Lisa remembers Missy Humes. She has this crazy viral post about how her daughter's an addict. Almost celebrity status in the Facebook world anyway with like 200,000 shares last time I talked to her. Right? So it was crazy. So her episode kind of...
Shannon (48:55.669)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (49:04.285)
Holy shit, yeah.
Shannon (49:09.629)
Of course.
Chuck (49:09.965)
I think there was one other episode that would compare to yours, and that was it, for the amount of people it brought in, like just immediately. It was just crazy, it was absolutely crazy, right? Yeah, yeah. And it was surprising for me, because sometimes I like to envision the show being about the families and all these big issues, and how recovery stories are kind of, eh. But it reminds me how important recovery stories are, right? Because that many people are listening to it. Somebody, and I guarantee, and I hope you,
Shannon (49:16.264)
Yeah. That's insane, you know?
Shannon (49:33.78)
Right, yeah.
Chuck (49:39.937)
take this, somebody's life was changed. That many people listen to it, I guarantee somebody's life was changed, right? You know, so, yeah, good for you, good for you on that. Yeah, yeah.
Shannon (49:40.96)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's amazing. That's like hard to fathom really, you know?
Chuck (49:53.713)
Yeah, yeah, right. I was trying to figure out the reason and I look at the numbers, it's people from Okotoks, people from Calgary, people from Sparwood, right, because I can see where people are, you know, watching from, right. These are, you are loved without a doubt. That's what that is, right. Well said, Lisa, by the way. Thank you for bringing that one in. But yeah, yeah.
Shannon (50:03.76)
Yeah, okay, yeah. Yeah.
Lisa (50:07.47)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (50:13.178)
Yeah. Shannon, can I ask you a question? How? Oh, we need a moment first. We all need a moment.
Shannon (50:16.954)
Yeah.
Shannon (50:20.966)
That's okay.
Chuck (50:21.132)
You could give that some space, absolutely. Right? Yeah.
Lisa (50:24.542)
Totally. I was curious, you know, I have a six year old, so she's little and at this point I get to control her world and keep her safe. But obviously kids get older and they've got to spread their wings and they've got to figure things out on their own. But how has that been for you, like trying to balance letting your kids do their thing with all the things that you've been through and all the things that you know?
Shannon (50:29.568)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (50:35.285)
Yes.
Shannon (50:54.645)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (50:55.222)
Like I just, I feel like that must be heard.
Shannon (50:58.188)
Oh, it's really hard because they hit a certain age where you just hope you planted all the right stuff in them and that they have that foundation that they can either build on or come back to, right? And so I kind of touched on that a bit in my episode of having to...
uh, make amends for my behaviors and how I might have affected them and, uh, making living amends. So I'm now, so the day, that night after the podcast, I took my son and his girlfriend to like a punk show. So I still go to concerts, but you know what? Like I, hold on one second. Thanks. Somebody's just dragging a chair across the floor.
getting a snack but um so okay i'll just start uh so i took them to this punk show right and so they had drinks and stuff but like i said uh i have a set of boundary recently that i won't buy booze like when we're out right um and it's not for lack of them asking but um i just don't um but i got to go
Lisa (52:20.686)
Can I ask why you set that boundary? Because I'm like, give me all the skills. Like, what was?
Shannon (52:25.308)
Yeah. So for me, right now, I've I mean, it's been a long time in coming because when they first started like party and I bootleg for them, but I felt like I could control how much they got, which is bullshit because. Yeah. No, I was sober by then. So I would. Yeah.
Chuck (52:42.753)
Were you still drinking at that time? Sorry to interrupt. Were you still drinking or were you sober by then?
Okay, okay, okay. Just trying to get the whole picture here.
Shannon (52:51.172)
So I would think, okay, well, if I buy them a six pack, that's what they're going to drink, which is complete bullshit because like.
Lisa (53:01.026)
Total bullshit.
Shannon (53:01.504)
But this is like how we think. So anyways, this is probably just in the last couple months where I'm just like, if they want it, they should be able to afford it and they should be able to buy it, right? And so it's like, I don't know, that's just an idea that I have in my head. But back to like going to this concert, my son went straight in the mosh pit, had a great time and I was right beside him, but on the outer, on the outer.
Lisa (53:30.103)
hahahaha
Shannon (53:31.456)
thing. But so they went down into the mosh pit but I was just outside of it. But I get to show them that I can do it sober too, right? So I lead by example. I... it's terrifying because like I talked about my daughter has this seemingly healthy thoughts around drinking right now. Who knows? I mean...
Alcohol use disorder is progressive and it's an addictive substance so we can think we have control over it but sometimes we just don't, right? But I really believe, and I've said this to my son, he's a carbon copy of me. You know, like we're the loud, happy people having a good time, you know, and I've just always had open dialogue about...
Chuck (54:01.773)
Who knows? Yeah, right, yeah.
Shannon (54:23.02)
taking, assessing where you're at and seeing is this a problem or is it not a problem and if it becomes a problem you need to come to me but I love or nagging doesn't prevent or cure it, right? So I can have the conversations but essentially it's not going to change what's happening unless they want to change it, right?
Lisa (54:52.046)
Hmm.
Chuck (54:52.297)
That is the reality, unfortunately, but that is the reality. Well said. Well said.
Lisa (54:55.414)
Yeah, because I feel like, I feel like I know these things in my head. But I still feel like I will be very high risk for verbally over talking and nagging and trying to control and, you know,
Shannon (55:00.318)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (55:10.684)
I know, it's tough. People say babies are hard, but it's like, when I actually, my mother-in-law gave me some really good advice. She said, if you ever want your kids to tell you anything, don't have a reaction to whatever they're telling you. And so, yeah, and that's super hard, you know, when they say some stuff and you're like, okay, yeah, tell me more.
Lisa (55:24.118)
Yep, I believe that.
Lisa (55:35.35)
Yeah, it's so funny you talk about that. Because so Alexis, right, we're like five, six weeks into grade one. And grade one compared to kindergarten, I see a lot of change, right? Like kindergarten, there was a lot more play, a lot more sitting on the mats. And now in grade one, it's a lot more sitting at your desk, doing your work quietly. And so, and she's a chatterbox and she's a busy bee.
Shannon (55:52.573)
Yeah.
Shannon (55:57.365)
Yeah.
Lisa (56:02.762)
and she'll come home and she's like, oh, like the teacher took away my play-doh today because I did this. The teacher took my pencil case away today because I did this. I kicked this boy in the playground because he was bullying me. I like blah, blah. And I'm just like exactly trying to sit there with a, you know, oh, tell me more about that. And it's just to the point where I started to say to her, tell me something.
Shannon (56:14.832)
Hahaha
Chuck (56:21.133)
I'm gonna go get a drink.
Shannon (56:23.673)
I know.
Lisa (56:26.286)
good about your day, because it seems like she's just more than excited to tell me about all the things she did wrong in the day.
Shannon (56:28.032)
Yeah.
Chuck (56:32.373)
Well, let's hold on to that, right? Because someday you'll be happy for that, right? Someday you'll be happy, right? Or appreciative is maybe a better word than happy, but yeah. Right? Yeah.
Shannon (56:35.876)
Yeah.
Lisa (56:36.406)
Right?
Lisa (56:39.89)
Yeah, yeah. And Shannon, I have to tell you, so I know, I know the father of Shannon's oldest child, because he went to school with us. And her son, I feel like he is like 90% you, but then there's a little bit of dad in there.
Shannon (56:50.147)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (56:58.196)
Oh yeah, 100% and honestly like he has his mannerisms a lot too and I'll just be like where did that come from you know but yeah you know we were both kind of the same you know like good time at parties you know very liked like everybody liked him you know and that's very much how Simon is too you know yeah so he got the best of both of us.
Lisa (57:15.406)
Hmm. Yeah.
Lisa (57:21.518)
There you go. Love it.
Chuck (57:22.573)
That's wonderful. That's wonderful. So, ladies, we are coming up on the hour. What an amazing, I'm really glad that you decided to come back on, Shannon. I think we covered some territory here that we haven't covered in the podcast before, which is fantastic. New Terries, always great territory, right? You know, so, and I, you know.
Shannon (57:25.486)
Yeah.
Shannon (57:34.898)
Yeah.
Shannon (57:40.26)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. Thank you for having me. It was amazing and you know any time
Chuck (57:44.977)
Yeah, yeah. Well, I think there's a spot for you somewhere in the show here down the road as well, of course, right? So yeah, yeah. Before we go though, I have to ask you, you have to be, and I might've asked you this offline, and forgive me, my memory has got a random time lock on it. Are you a, like, you must be a big part of the recovery community. Is that, like, do you have a lot of people around you? Do you, because I asked this because of what we were talking about with your episode. Like, it was so instant.
Shannon (57:49.367)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Shannon (58:00.125)
Mm-hmm.
Chuck (58:13.653)
the spike in ups on it, like you shared it and everybody in your world, but I wanna listen to this. So are you a big part of the recovery community and how big of a part is that of your life now?
Shannon (58:13.867)
Yeah.
Shannon (58:24.092)
Yeah, well, so I've kind of moved more towards service in the recovery community. I used to attend meetings regularly, but now I'm more like I'm part of a community program and I kind of feel like I get more out of that.
Chuck (58:29.746)
Okay. Yeah.
Chuck (58:50.845)
Okay, okay. Yep.
Shannon (58:50.848)
than just going to the meetings. It's very important to be there for the newcomers, but to answer your question, I don't really feel like I'm a big part. I'm a part of it, but that isn't my big connections, especially with social media. A lot of it is I just really love people and I...
I know how important it is to, you know, they put a picture up of their cute little something and I tell them that they're cute, you know, and I just love that, you know, and I get that back a lot because, yeah, so I really think that's maybe where it comes from is the connections that I form. Yeah.
Chuck (59:29.941)
Ha ha ha.
Chuck (59:34.905)
Yeah.
Chuck (59:39.745)
be? No kidding, no kidding. Totally off topic, but now I gotta say this is something that crossed my mind all the time. If you have a content creator in your Facebook world or in your social media world and they post something, like, share, comment on it for Christ's sake. I'm saying this to the listeners, but you just made me think about it when you say something. You have an infinite amount of space on your wall, literally an infinite amount of space, and it takes you two seconds. So unless you have a moral objection to whatever that person has created, do them a damn favour because we count every single one of them, right?
Lisa (59:58.378)
Yep.
Chuck (01:00:09.949)
My brother, my mother, I give them shit for this all the time. I'm like, you have an infinite, can you just like, share and comment? Can you do that for me please, right? Like there's no good reason not to. So just when you said that, it made me think about it. And I thought, I'll take a second to tell people, right? But yeah, it does. It really does, right? Keeping in mind, when I put a one minute reel out, an hour for sure went into creating that, for sure. And that's an easy one, right? So it's like, okay, y'all watch it. Could you just like it? Could you have any idea? Because it means a lot, a lot.
Shannon (01:00:15.444)
Yep, yep, yep. Right, because that means a lot, right? Yeah, yeah.
Shannon (01:00:29.996)
That's crazy. Yeah.
Lisa (01:00:36.353)
Yeah.
Shannon (01:00:36.796)
Yeah, that's a good reminder for me too. Yeah, yeah, that's a good. Well, and it's very interesting, like, what creates the viral posts? Like, what is that? I don't know. Like, I guess if we knew that, then we'd be viral. Yeah.
Chuck (01:00:38.261)
when somebody does it, right? Yeah, right? You know, so to everybody that's listening, not just for me, but anybody in your social media world.
Chuck (01:00:51.329)
If we, right? And there's like the algorithms, right? It's all about the algorithms and trying to figure them out. But universally across the board, like comment shares, right, whatever platform, whatever, that is one of the big driving factors without a shadow of a doubt, right? So every single time you do any one of those things, right? Oh, I almost went into my exit monologue earlier. Okay, right. Yeah, yeah, right. Please do, yeah, no, go ahead.
Lisa (01:01:10.03)
You totally did. I was like, whew.
Shannon (01:01:13.897)
I just wanted to say one more thing, sorry Chuck, but I was thinking of this when I was going to come onto the podcast with Lisa and I just wanted to acknowledge that we kind of touched on this a little bit. That I...
pretty sure I remember chasing her out of a party once because I was drunk and angry. So I wanted to acknowledge that I did that and I'm sorry. I don't know, do you remember that? Yeah, okay. I was like, I should probably acknowledge that. But you know what, that's learning and I don't know. I was a different person then, thank you. Yeah.
Chuck (01:01:35.693)
Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.
Lisa (01:01:49.886)
Yeah, I forgive you.
Chuck (01:01:51.241)
Well, yeah. Oh, that's a lot right there, right? That's a lot. Like I said, we never have any idea what any of us are going through at any point, right? So I'm really glad that you got to come on and to people that are listening, maybe this is a reminder to you, right? You know, yeah, hey, yay, right? It makes me think about all the events I still have yet to do, right? I'm a year, it's coming up here, it's coming up, it's coming up in two weeks from today, as a matter of fact. We are going to be...
Lisa (01:01:55.82)
Yeah.
Lisa (01:02:01.054)
No.
Shannon (01:02:04.648)
I got to do another immense. Yeah, thank you for that Lisa.
Lisa (01:02:06.946)
Hmm.
Lisa (01:02:12.662)
Mm.
Shannon (01:02:16.064)
That's, wow, that's awesome.
Lisa (01:02:18.222)
That's right.
Chuck (01:02:19.229)
My one year is going to be on a weekend ramble, as a matter of fact. So, there you go. Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, yeah. But I still got a lot of amends to make, right? Ain't like a lot, right? You know? Yeah, yeah, right, right. So, yeah, yeah.
Shannon (01:02:21.982)
Mmm.
Lisa (01:02:22.478)
amazing. That's amazing.
Shannon (01:02:29.296)
I know, as they surface, yeah. You got lots of time, yeah. And you know when I think about mine the most is when I'm falling asleep. So you can't really do anything about it then. So then it creates effort. You have to have effort to get up and do it the next day. Yeah. Yeah, right?
Lisa (01:02:29.558)
You got time, you got time.
Chuck (01:02:42.998)
or memory, or memory, right? I have some focus issues that I'm working on. So, I want to call everybody at three o'clock in the morning is what I want to do because that's what it occurs to me, right? Memory with a random time lock. Yeah, I call it the oh shit con, you know, right? But okay, so here's the thing. At three o'clock in the morning, I dare not text people, right? Because I'm only a year, right? Like I can't.
Shannon (01:02:53.652)
Yes, I know. That's why I like texting or like messenger, you know? Yeah. They think you're loaded. Yeah.
Lisa (01:03:00.6)
Totally.
Chuck (01:03:09.417)
I can't send an email, certainly can't call anybody, message anybody at three o'clock in the morning because for me, and that's probably more about myself than it is about the people in my life, but I immediately think, okay, they're gonna think that I'm using. Right, you know what I mean, right? So it's a constant for me, it's a thing, I dare never send a text at three o'clock in the morning. Like it's a horrible, yeah, right?
Shannon (01:03:21.844)
Yes, I know. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.
Lisa (01:03:22.273)
Interesting.
Shannon (01:03:28.747)
Yeah.
Lisa (01:03:29.678)
And it's funny because I like with if I'm working call, right, I'll be up all night. And it's a kind of a bit and I'm a night owl anyway, but it's a big joke amongst like people that I work with who are friends of mine that like, you know, they'll wake up and it's not a surprise to them if they've gotten a message for me at 2am. And it never dawns on me that well, if I message someone at 2am, they're going to think I'm up to something like I just know.
Chuck (01:03:50.323)
Yeah.
Chuck (01:03:54.357)
But you don't have that history, right? You don't have a history of being up to something at 2 a.m., like for 20 some years, right? So yeah, right? Yeah, yeah. I constantly, I worry about it if I sleep in. I worry, like I always worry about it, right? About how this must look to other people, right? And then, and Ryan, you know, Ryan Bathgate from our Wednesdays, I said to, I was talking to him about this once, and I said, like, it's got to have occurred to you. He says, it'll occur to me when you tell me that you've used. And not before, man. You're my friend.
Shannon (01:03:56.628)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Lisa (01:04:02.746)
Totally.
Shannon (01:04:12.744)
Right, yeah.
Chuck (01:04:23.785)
Oh, that was actually a really big deal, right? You know, like, yeah, right. So, ah, anyway. It's, yeah. All right, okay.
Shannon (01:04:25.241)
Whoa. Yeah.
Lisa (01:04:29.794)
Yeah.
Shannon (01:04:32.328)
Yeah, that's nice.
Lisa (01:04:32.942)
that trust is almost gifted to you, do you know what I mean? And that the lack of judgment too, right? Because...
Chuck (01:04:36.713)
Yeah. Right, right? And I know, I know that if I used tomorrow I could call him and it would never even, it would be like, okay, so how was that for you? Are we back to it now? It wouldn't be an issue, right? I know there's a bunch of people in my life now that I could say that to if it came up, right? Fortunately, we're not there, but you know, so yeah. Anyway, that brings us to my favorite part of the show, and that's the Daily Gratitudes. Edit, edit, edit. Shannon, what you got for us today?
Shannon (01:04:45.536)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (01:04:46.314)
Yeah, no.
Lisa (01:04:53.078)
Yep, exactly.
Shannon (01:05:02.784)
Daily Gratitudes. One of my friends came into town last night and I got to catch up with her in person and I'm really grateful for old friendships that you just pick up right where you left off.
Chuck (01:05:18.473)
It's wonderful. It's funny, I'll pause on that. You can always tell when somebody's been in a program for a long time when we come up with daily gratitudes because they're simple, they're just nice things. Whereas most people try and come up with this grandiose thing that they're grateful for, for God and my family and everything. Whereas somebody that's been in a program for a while would be like a cup of coffee, a friend I visited, whatever.
Lisa (01:05:34.05)
Yeah, I've noticed that.
Shannon (01:05:34.62)
Right. Yeah.
Shannon (01:05:45.312)
Yeah.
Chuck (01:05:45.474)
It's an interesting thing. And it's funny that you've noticed that, Lisa, because it's very, very true, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Lisa (01:05:48.094)
have the muggle, right? Because I think that I used to be of exactly what you're describing and then just the realization that I can say I'm grateful that the sky is blue, you know? Yeah? Yeah.
Chuck (01:05:59.81)
It's huge, right? And I never try and judge anybody's gratitudes. I just find the differences are interesting to me. That's all, right? So, yeah, right. What about yourself, Lisa? What do you got?
Shannon (01:06:00.897)
Yeah.
Lisa (01:06:06.015)
Yep.
Lisa (01:06:10.294)
I'm grateful for my brother. I'll always say that the lessons he's taught me, I think I would be a different person if he weren't my brother, and it wouldn't be for the better. I think I'm less judgmental, I'm more open-minded, I'm more forgiving because he's my brother. And I'm grateful to have had Shannon on today.
We spent three, four years in high school together listening to her podcast. I'm grateful that I got to do that because it just opened my eyes to her experience. It was a very validating thing for me because yeah, high school in Sparwood wasn't easy. And I think it's really easy to take that on and feel like that's unique to you or it's somehow your fault that you had that experience. So being able to hear
her very similar experience of it was just super validating for me. You know, and yeah. You're welcome.
Shannon (01:07:19.636)
Nice, thank you, Lisa.
Chuck (01:07:21.229)
I like that. Yeah, yeah. For myself, of course, another great episode from you guys. Thank you so much for coming back on, Shannon. I had no idea the impact your episode was gonna have on both Lisa and everybody else in the world, and here you are to do it again. So I'm really thankful for that, right? And of course, your time, as always, Lisa, on the weekends. And final gratitude goes out to the listeners, whatever you guys are doing, the watchers, listeners, supporters. Again, I'm still not sure what to call everybody. Whatever you're doing, it's working. We're doing a...
Shannon (01:07:28.02)
Yeah, anytime. I loved it.
Shannon (01:07:35.18)
It's amazing. Yeah.
Chuck (01:07:49.897)
doing good things when we're getting the message out. If you see us on any one of the social media networks, if you could like, comment, share, do what you do. Something I keep forgetting to mention, on the website you can leave a voice message for the show. 100%. So I totally didn't realize we could do that, but that website just keeps blowing me away with the services it offers, and there's another one. So please leave a voice message, as long as it's not profane, I will most certainly put it on air.
And every time you do any one of these things, you're getting me a little bit closer to living my best life. My best life is to make a humble living spreading the message. The message is this. If you're in active addiction right now, today could be the day that you start that lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call into detox, go to a meeting, do whatever the hell it is you need to do to get started because it is so much better than the alternative. And if you are the loved one of somebody who's suffering an addiction right now, I'm just taking the time to listen to our ramble. If you could just take one more minute, text that person, let them know they're loved.
Use the words.
Lisa (01:08:46.954)
You are love.
Shannon (01:08:47.028)
you are late.
Chuck (01:08:49.249)
That little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings him back.
. After not seeing each other for almost 30 years, these two beautiful souls meet via virtual studio to talk about how we can never be sure what another person is going through. It is a powerful reminder that we just don’t know what we don’t know.
If you have a nonprofit or fundraiser that you would like to advertise for free and spread a five-minute dose of kindness to the world while doing it, you can on the latest Chuck LaFLange Production, Morning Cup of Kindness. Details here https://WWW.A2APODCAST.COM/MCK
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Also please visit our Facebook page here, and like, share, or comment on any of the posts. Your feedback there is sincerely appreciated, and taken quite seriously.
Ours sponsors, that make spreading the message possible :
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Chuck (00:01.269)
Hello everybody. Welcome to another edition of the weekend ramp on the ashes to awesome podcast. I'm your host Chuck LaFlandre and with me in virtual studio today is my lovely cohost Lisa. How you doing today, Lisa?
Lisa (00:10.959)
I'm doing really good. Chuck, how are you?
Chuck (00:13.729)
Excellent, thank you, thank you. And we have a special guest with us today who is in episode 165. Oh, I'm gonna repeat that. We have a special guest with us today who is in episode 165, Shannon. How you doing today, Shannon?
Shannon (00:27.937)
I'm doing good, little bit tired, but I'm here.
Chuck (00:30.705)
Excellent, good stuff, good stuff. I'm really glad to have you back on. So we did talk about a little bit in episode 165, but to the listener, and peek behind the curtain a bit here, how Shannon and I connected was through Lisa. Lisa and Shannon were in the same high school together back in small town, Sherwood, or Sparwood, BC, I should say, right? And it was a funny thing that I picked up on in that they both kind of had some of the same feelings about...
growing up in a small town and some of the things that were going on, yet neither one of them would have had any idea about the others. And I thought that was kind of an interesting thing to talk about in that we just don't know what somebody else is going through, right? Especially, especially when we're kids, right? When we're young people and teenagers. Teenagers probably more so than anything because we, you know, whatever. We are who we are when we're kids. So thank you for coming back on to talk about that. And to get things kicking off here.
Why don't we start with you, Shannon, and kind of recap, if you could kind of give us a synopsis about what it was like being a kid for you, and then we can get Lisa's take on the same thing. How does that sound?
Shannon (01:34.824)
Yeah, that sounds good. Thanks for having me back, Chuck. So I grew up in Sparwood. I moved there in grade two. I...
I guess I kind of feel like I had a normal childhood for what Spurwood standards are, you know. I think a lot of the parents were doing the same things and a lot of the kids were doing the same things. But I really felt, like at an early age, that I didn't belong to any sort of group or core friendships that most people, I felt most people had.
Chuck (02:19.501)
Clicked up, as they say now. Is that what they say now? Clicked up. Something like that. I'm trying to be hip to the groove. I don't know, I don't know. Yeah, right, so, yeah, yeah.
Shannon (02:23.22)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I have no idea. I wouldn't be able to tell you. But yeah, so from very early on I was trying to find that acceptance, but the...
Lisa (02:25.318)
even know.
Shannon (02:38.676)
the cliques, like I had said previously, felt really hard to penetrate. And even if you were, it just kind of felt like it was temporary to be a part of. And I don't know if that's the same everywhere. I don't know if that's... my kids don't seem to struggle with that and they've grown up in a bigger centre.
Chuck (02:59.285)
What I can't help but wonder is how many of those other kids that were part of that clique maybe on a more permanent mindset or level in your mind felt the same way? How many of them? That's kind of why we're having this conversation.
Shannon (03:07.208)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, yeah, I don't know. There could have been...
Yeah, exactly. And you know, when you reached out to me and said that Lisa had listened to the episode and she was shocked that I felt that way and she kind of felt the same. I would have never guessed that. And she said she would never guess that about me. But I think as kids, we're chameleons and we fit into whatever situation. And, you know, I put up a very tough exterior. I was super angry.
clad walls that nobody could really penetrate. And that's what protected me from that in and out of the group type situation that I was exposed to early on.
Chuck (03:58.817)
Okay, Lisa, how was it for you?
Lisa (04:02.434)
Um, so, so I'm from Wabush, Labrador. And it was actually, I think Wabush actually, I know, I think it means, I think it's an Inuit word that means white rabbit, I think. But anyway, but it was a town similar size to Sparwood. The difference being that it was a
Chuck (04:08.333)
which isn't even, it sounds made up. It sounds made up, come on. Right? Sorry to all the Wubbushians, right?
Chuck (04:22.842)
Okay.
Lisa (04:29.846)
minute drive away from Labrador City, which had like I think growing up Wabush was around three, four thousand and then Lab City was I think around twelve thousand. So I mean they were almost kind of like one place so it was a bit bigger but nonetheless like Wabush itself was very similar size to Spurwood. So I lived there until I was almost 15. My parents like I think my dad moved
My mom moved there when she was about 12. For me, and again, but I was born there. So I don't know what someone who moved into Wabush would say about it. But for me, Wabush was like what you see of little towns glamorized on American television. You know, like my uncle lived up the road, my uncle lived up the other road, my grandparents lived up another road. It was like a strong sense of community.
Chuck (05:16.777)
Yeah, yeah, right.
Lisa (05:28.014)
people were friendly, and I loved living there. Like I still say to this day that leaving there, just shy of 15 was one of the hardest things I've ever gone through. Like I remember moving to Sparwood, and probably for a solid six to 12 months, I would lay in my bedroom and close my eyes and picture my room back in Labrador and try to pretend I was back home.
Chuck (05:41.386)
kidding.
Chuck (05:57.281)
Wow.
Lisa (05:57.782)
Like I was so sad, like I was sick to my stomach for, like I said, probably close to a year. Like I was just absolutely devastated. And Shannon talks about it in, you know, her episode, but there's these families in Sparwood that have been there for generations. There are, I think most of them are sort of Italian heritage families. And they kind of own the town, or that's what it feels like.
Shannon (06:21.323)
Yeah.
Chuck (06:27.818)
Yeah.
Lisa (06:28.522)
Um, and so it was a very, very hard place to try to fit in. Um, you know, it's like.
Chuck (06:37.505)
So, but I have to ask you, I think you already know though, somebody moving into Wabush, they're gonna feel the exact same way, right? Because your uncle lives up the road in another road and you're, just like you said, right? So, you know, yeah.
Lisa (06:48.874)
Yeah, I think the difference and again, I could be wrong, right? But there was a few kids who I remember moving to our school when I was like in grade seven, grade eight. And they did know again, I was totally misperceiving Shannon's experience in high school. So I could have, I could be misperceiving this too. But like I know kids who moved into
Chuck (07:08.265)
Right?
Chuck (07:15.531)
Yeah.
Lisa (07:18.526)
relatively quickly and be accepted relatively quickly. I don't remember us ever being outwardly explicitly mean to them. And those are people, because I'm still in contact with friends I grew up with in Labrador, and some of those kids that moved there in those early teen years are very good friends with people from Labrador. So that's why I say like I could be totally off, but for me
Shannon (07:27.116)
I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.
Chuck (07:44.841)
And I gotta say, from an outsider looking in, I imagine that you probably are, right? Because Shannon, did you think that she was having this amazingly hard time to adjust? Right? So, right.
Lisa (07:50.563)
Probably.
Shannon (07:54.312)
No, honestly I didn't. But yeah, I guess that's just perceptions that we put out there, right? And we just have no idea what's going on.
Chuck (08:05.385)
Yeah, we have no idea. And it's probably more magnified in teens, I would think, because teens are volatile people anyway, right? Unreasonable on a good day. But even as adults, you have no idea what the person next to you is going through. You just don't, right?
Shannon (08:11.635)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (08:21.302)
No. Yeah. And I feel like that's been highlighted for me in my job, because I'll see people in the Emerge and I'll look at them and go, if I saw you at the grocery store instead of the emergency department, I think you had your shit together. And you're in the Emerge telling me about how you don't have your shit together. Like, like, it's like really kind of in my face. But like, I remember the first one of the first days I was at our high school, during recess, people would just kind of hang out in the hallway.
Shannon (08:33.51)
Mm-hmm.
Chuck (08:33.514)
Right?
Chuck (08:36.977)
Right, right.
Shannon (08:37.32)
Yeah.
Lisa (08:48.014)
It was just like, that was like, ah, I dreaded recess. Cause I was just like, I would stand in the hallway by myself. And I still remember one of the first days I was standing there, just standing against the wall. And a girl came up to me who was two years older than me. And she's like, do you see those girls over there? And pointed to a bench of these girls sitting there. And she's like, they'll hate you. I'll never forget it. It was like one of my first memories, right? Kids are so mean. Like kids.
Chuck (09:09.873)
Whatever. Right. They really are.
Shannon (09:12.94)
Uh-huh. That's awful. And you know what? This is what.
kills me is like this shit burns into your brain and it affects who you are. You know like those interactions and those things affected how I have my friendships, who I feel safe with. You know like for a lot of high school I only hung out with guys because that's who I felt safe with. You know they didn't care what I was wearing, they didn't care what I
Chuck (09:25.629)
It truly does.
Lisa (09:47.958)
Yeah, I do think girls are meaner.
Chuck (09:50.397)
Oh, without a doubt, without a doubt, right? And here's the thing, and it goes through to, oh, go ahead.
Shannon (09:50.536)
Yeah. And I honestly, I am no angel. Like I made a fair share of girls' lives hell as well, you know, so that's where.
Lisa (09:52.828)
you know?
Shannon (10:03.832)
it comes where, that's where growth happens, right? Is you take responsibility for that. And I mean, part of my program is making amends. So I mean, there's a number of people that I've reached out to say, like, I'm sorry for that. And, you know, I hope you can forgive me, but if not, I need you to know that I'm sorry, you know? And hopefully that helps their healing journey, right?
Lisa (10:24.514)
Mm-hmm.
Chuck (10:29.005)
You've got to wonder how validating that is for somebody, 10 years after the fact, 15 years after the fact. I think so. Yeah.
Lisa (10:29.247)
And you hope.
Lisa (10:35.246)
Very, I think. Like you take the girl who said that to me, I would bet you a lot of money that she doesn't even remember saying that to me. But it's like, yeah, kids say things to each other. And especially when you're on the receiving end of stuff like that, like it does, like you don't forget that stuff. And I remember too, like as a kid in Labrador, like I felt...
Chuck (10:43.861)
Probably not, right? Yeah, yeah.
Shannon (10:43.976)
Right. Yeah.
Chuck (10:56.49)
Nope.
Lisa (11:04.33)
I don't think kids know who they are and I don't think they should. I think being a kid is about trying to figure out who you are. But I felt like when I, before moving to Spurwood, I...
I think it was just this natural evolution of finding myself that didn't feel forced or needed or expected. And then when I moved to Sparwood, it was so much more in my face somehow that I found myself searching, like actively searching and like almost trying things on and trying to figure out do I fit here? Do I fit there? And it's like as Shannon described, like you're just trying so hard to fit in somewhere.
And I think what happens is that when you find a place where they'll accept you, you take it on as an identity.
Chuck (11:51.913)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Shannon (11:53.518)
Whereas I was the party girl, so that's what I put on like a nice comfy t-shirt.
Lisa (11:53.701)
and
Chuck (11:58.129)
Yeah. Right, right. Which leads to all sorts of behaviors down the road, right? As you're well aware of. Yeah.
Lisa (11:59.667)
Yeah, yeah.
Shannon (12:04.752)
Yeah. I was also the angry fighter, which didn't serve me very well either. So.
Lisa (12:05.782)
Totally. And I think...
Chuck (12:14.917)
Yeah, right.
Lisa (12:15.006)
Yeah. But it's kind of sad. I feel like especially, you know, because who's listening to this podcast? It's going to be more adults.
Chuck (12:22.941)
Of course, right? If only we had that knowledge when we were 15 years old.
Shannon (12:24.649)
Okay.
Lisa (12:27.05)
Yeah, but like I feel like just generationally we're becoming more psychologically minded, right? But I feel like it's having these conversations with your kids. Like my daughter will come home, she's only six years old, you know, and there's this little boy, there's three kindergarten classes at her school, and there's a little boy in one of the classes, and for the last two years he's just kind of a bully. Like he's a bit of a hard case.
Chuck (12:36.074)
Yeah.
Lisa (12:55.722)
And I'll always say to her, cause she'll come and be like, you know, he pushed me or he kicked me or, and that's what the focus is. And I'll say to her, like, what do you think he might be feeling that he's doing that stuff? You know, like maybe he's having a hard time. Maybe there's something going on you don't know about. And I do feel like that's something parents can, can do with their kids. Like no one ever said that shit to me as a kid, you know?
Chuck (13:20.013)
Of course not. Who would have, right? Yeah, back then, yeah.
Shannon (13:20.373)
No.
Lisa (13:21.446)
Nobody ever encouraged me to think that someone who was being mean to me might actually be going through a hard time. And I was just a punching bag, you know. So I think there's a lot to be said for helping kids in that way because I don't think it's any different. I think teenagers today are going through the same stuff that we're talking about.
Chuck (13:26.197)
Yeah.
Chuck (13:29.716)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Chuck (13:44.029)
Of course they are, of course they are. And they've got a whole different dynamic now too, right? You think about being a kid, being a 15 year old today, how much of your life was spent in isolation due to COVID? Right? And I mean, even being, you have a 21 year old son, right, Shannon, how much of his, how many of his formative years were spent essentially isolated, right? You know?
Shannon (13:55.942)
Oh god.
Shannon (14:00.585)
Yeah.
Shannon (14:04.608)
Well, his grad year was the first year of COVID. So they left school on Friday and never went back. So they never got the goodbyes, they never got a graduation, they never got anything like that, right? Yeah.
Chuck (14:10.813)
Yep. Right? Right.
Chuck (14:17.021)
all of those things, eh? So just imagine, imagine what these kids are going through now, right? And all of them, the ones that were toddlers, the ones that were, you know, yeah, right? So we just don't have any damn idea what anybody's going through at any given time, right? And I think that's what this whole conversation comes down to, but, and it's so much of...
Shannon (14:22.024)
Yeah. Oh, and I'm seeing the after effects of it too. Yeah.
Shannon (14:31.3)
I know.
Mm-hmm.
Chuck (14:37.189)
speaking to our base, the addictions, the maladaptive behaviors that come as a result of what are, let's be honest, multi-traumas. All of that stuff is. Leaving Labrador for you. Yourself as well, Shannon. So much of what you talk about, those are all multi-traumas. And how those affect you as an adult are, I mean, geez, right? Fortunately, you have a program that kind of helps you address some of those things, but how many people go through life without that knowledge?
Shannon (14:44.722)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (14:48.798)
Yeah.
Shannon (14:53.332)
Yeah.
Shannon (14:58.027)
Yeah.
Shannon (15:02.078)
Yeah.
Oh, lots. Lots, yeah.
Lisa (15:06.41)
And I do think it's like very on topic with an addiction podcast because it's just this idea that kids, and I think some of it is just normative development, but I think it's that idea that kids are trying to figure out who they are. I think kids who don't know where they belong are at very high risk of turning to substances or turning to
Chuck (15:12.213)
without a doubt.
Lisa (15:32.95)
Like I remember in Sparwood, the people who were nicest to me from the beginning were the people I would describe as sort of the harder crowd, the ones that would hang out in the smoking pit. And it would have been very easy for me to just kind of slip into that and take that on as my identity.
Chuck (15:33.261)
Thanks for watching!
Chuck (15:44.043)
Yeah.
Shannon (15:45.658)
Okay.
Chuck (15:53.725)
It was like Shannon said, that it was like a comfy t-shirt, just to put that on and, you know, right? And for myself as well growing up, right? It was, until, if I didn't do this podcast, I would never have this much self-awareness, right? But because I've heard the same story, oh, not the same story, the same factor in the same part of the story, I just didn't feel like I belonged. Well, it was the same thing for me.
Shannon (15:58.378)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Shannon (16:09.393)
Yeah.
Chuck (16:15.773)
I just absolutely, I was all over the map. My brother was a jock and that was easy for him, but I was like, I was all over the place. And then partying became like, that's a really easy place, right? Because you've got that substance that makes you feel like you're cool and whatever. And boom, that's just, it's a natural, it's an easy place to default to if you're, you know, if you're having identity issues and whatever. And then from there, you know, yeah, you know.
Shannon (16:39.816)
Well, yeah, exactly. And, but I do believe that some teenagers, what do you call normal drinkers? I can't remember. Muggles, muggles? Yeah, like I still think.
Chuck (16:49.397)
Social, drinkers? Muggles? Oh yeah, I call, everybody's a muggle, yeah. Yeah.
Lisa (16:52.398)
Yeah
Shannon (16:54.972)
Yeah, I still think some teenagers are that and some teenagers have crossed that threshold into abuse, right? So I was having this conversation with my daughter, so my daughter is 17, and we were talking about drinking and she was like, of course she drinks, she goes to parties and stuff like that. And she said to my husband and I, who both don't drink, she was like, yeah, you know, I just don't like that feeling of not being aware of my surroundings. And you know, as soon as I say something where I'm like, oh, why did I just say that? She's like, that's when I switched to water and that's it.
that's when I, you know, will stop drinking. And I was like, I never had that ever in my life. I just like, that was have another drink. Like, especially if I said something stupid, like, yeah, get me another beer. Yeah, so I don't know where she picked that up, but I was like, I'm really proud of you for doing that. Yeah.
Chuck (17:28.885)
Wow Yep in for a penny in for a pound. Let's go right like double down Well, see you
We've talked about that nature versus nurture thing, right? So at some point, and Lisa describes it in her choices quote, I think I played that for you in our episode Shannon, if not, I'll play it for you again here shortly. Yeah, I did, I did, right? Maybe I'll play it anyway, because it's just such a beautifully said piece, but that nature versus nurture. At some point, nurture has everything to do with it up until they go to a party and start drinking, right?
Shannon (17:54.824)
Yes, yes, yeah.
Chuck (18:12.158)
And then that's when the nature kicks in, right? When nurture doesn't have, you know. Perfect example, yep, yep.
Shannon (18:14.816)
Right.
Lisa (18:15.106)
Well, you take my brother and I, right? Like I was like Shannon's daughter. Like I remember, cause yeah, in Sparwood, that was kind of what we did as teenagers. We would go to bonfire parties and people would drink and there'd be music and I would go to those parties. And like I drank a bit in high school, but I would often lie. I would pretend I was drinking and I wouldn't.
And I never really liked it. Like, I still remember the first time I drank, it was at a house party in Sparwood. And I just remember like the room spinning and thinking, oh my God, like this is terrible. Like, I don't like this. And then you take my brother, who had a very different experience with substances. And we grew up in the same house.
Shannon (18:56.863)
Yeah.
Chuck (19:04.699)
Yes.
Lisa (19:07.17)
You know, obviously, even within the same home, every kid has a different experience in that home. But there's genetically, you know, both of my mom's parents were alcoholics. There's definitely a genetic thing as well. And I do believe that my brother, you know, he got certain genes, I didn't. And I think there was a genetic predisposition there on top of other factors.
Lisa (19:36.034)
But, you know, and he also moved when he was a teenager. Like we left Sparwood and he left Sparwood about the same age I arrived in Sparwood. And I think it was the same thing. Like you go somewhere, you don't feel like you fit in. And, you know, and you find substances, just take away the disinhibition and, you know, it just.
Shannon (19:36.117)
Yeah.
Shannon (19:46.251)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (19:56.256)
Where did you guys move to? Or where did he move to? Mm-hmm.
Chuck (19:56.723)
Yeah.
Lisa (19:59.378)
So I, the year we finished high school, him and my parents moved to Moncton, well Riverview, New Brunswick, but it's just a little town next to Moncton, New Brunswick. And that's where he got into partying. Like, I mean, it might have happened if we'd stayed in Sparwood, but again, I always wonder because I think my brother is, has always been a bit more anxious than me, like even as a little, little boy.
Shannon (20:11.204)
Mm, okay.
Shannon (20:15.241)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (20:18.56)
Yeah.
Shannon (20:26.601)
Right, yeah.
Lisa (20:26.982)
And so, you know, I think for him moving at 15 and he was also the kid though, who my parents would tell you he had an easy time moving. Like they knew full well that I was not happy when we moved to Spurwood. Whereas David was always like, eh, like whatever, sure. I don't care. But I think he was an internalizer and I do think he struggled with anxiety. And so then he moved to a new town and he started partying. Um, and I wonder, you know, I've never actually asked him.
Shannon (20:37.525)
Yeah.
Chuck (20:38.118)
Hahaha
Shannon (20:46.464)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (20:52.531)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (20:56.098)
But I wonder if again for him it was a thing of, it made that transition easier, being in a place where he didn't know anybody and, and that's where it began. Yeah, yeah.
Shannon (21:02.409)
Right.
Shannon (21:06.32)
Yeah, it's possible. Yeah, that's the...
Chuck (21:06.523)
Hmm.
Right? Right.
Shannon (21:10.836)
shitty thing about addiction and substance abuse is, you know, if you could pinpoint the exact time, you'd never let that happen, but you can't, you know. But I do, I do actually feel like getting back to the small town. I do actually feel, because I've talked to numerous people about small towns and stuff like that. I do feel like the Elk Valley has a different vibe. Like I just feel like it's hard. It's a hard place to grow up and you have to be kind of a hard person
Chuck (21:20.242)
No, no, unfortunately you cannot.
Shannon (21:40.61)
to navigate it, you know. And as we've kind of touched on, you know, probably a lot of us felt that. I, whether...
you were accepted or not, you know, I was, I have, I play on a ladies ball team and one, a girl that grew up in Sparwood also plays on the ball team. And she was kind of like me, like really, we're actually quite similar, like a really hard exterior, you know, the classic resting bitch face that didn't bode well with the older girls because we're supposed to respect them for some reason, other than the fact that they're bitches, but I don't know, you know?
sitting at our year-end banquet with all these other girls, and lots of them grew up in the city, like grew up in Calgary, because they're all locals, and they couldn't believe the stories that we were telling them. Like, my friend, I don't know if Shawn's gonna use her name, but my friend was like, yeah, the first time I saw Shannon, we were down in the...
It might have been the Mekons, it might have been those apartments beside the Black Nugget. But anyways, we went there to beat up a girl and she was there and she saw us come in and beat up this girl. And one of the girls that was with me was pregnant and fighting, you know, like this is just stuff that happens there, you know? And these girls were flabbergasted. They're like, we've never even seen a fighting real person. And I was like, this is just normal stuff that happened there. It was like the fights and watch your back. And did you say that about me?
Lisa (23:11.582)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (23:12.438)
you know?
Chuck (23:13.277)
And I was in a small town as well, like Strathmore, just outside of Calgary, right? Same thing though, absolutely the same thing. Oh, without a doubt, yeah, it was fights where, yeah. I can't even tell you how many times I was in a fight at lunch or after school or whatever, like that was just normal kind of happenings back then. Maybe, right, maybe it was a part, yeah, right.
Shannon (23:16.828)
Yeah. Was it? Hmm.
Lisa (23:17.357)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (23:28.756)
Well, maybe it was just people like us.
Lisa (23:31.914)
See, I have the same experience as Shannon though, where I feel like, and again, maybe I sort of idealize Labrador because it was my home, but I have the same experience where when I've talked to people about this, that the Elk Valley is somewhat unique.
Chuck (23:50.625)
Could be, yeah, it could be. Yeah, I'm certainly not trying to take away from that. Similar experience, right? Yeah.
Lisa (23:54.279)
Yeah.
Shannon (23:55.883)
Well...
Even my, so my son, who's 21, he went back for, so Sparwood has this party when you graduate, it's called Stag and Hens, so Stag for the guys, Hens for the girls. So he went down for his, cause he moved up to Okotoks when he was 14 maybe? So he went back to party with his friends that were graduating, right? And when he came back, it was like, it was like he was just like this wounded puppy, like coming back home and he was like,
Like he got in a fight, he's never fought before, like drinking, cars driving everywhere. He was just shell shocked as to like, and I'm like yeah, and that happens every weekend there. This isn't like, just this is the weekend for partying. That happens every weekend and he was like I can't believe it because that just doesn't happen here.
Chuck (24:39.074)
Yeah.
Chuck (24:46.569)
No kidding, eh? No kidding. Yeah. Jeez. Yeah.
Shannon (24:47.856)
Yeah, and so it's still happening there. You know, my daughter, her boyfriend lives in the past and she goes down there and she said, girls are still fighting down there and that just doesn't happen up here, you know? And actually, yeah.
Chuck (25:00.479)
Wow.
Lisa (25:02.51)
There's like a mentality to it, right? And like we've talked about, it's like some of those families have been there forever and they're still there, you know? And hey, people are happy there, good on you. Like, you know, everyone stay in your lane, do your thing, live your life, and if that works for you, awesome. But I feel like because of that, it's, like how does it change when it's like the same families generation after generation, just kind of doing the things that they're doing? I don't know.
Shannon (25:08.616)
Yeah.
Shannon (25:16.48)
Yeah.
Shannon (25:31.641)
Yeah. Well, I will say, like, I sobered up there, so I really feel like I kind of outgrew the town, like, when I was there, um, and raising the kids from whatever grade. We moved there when Simon was in kindergarten and moved up here when he was in grade nine. It served our family quite well, you know, like the...
Lisa (25:31.695)
It's interesting.
Shannon (25:51.544)
sports were, he played hockey, soccer, like all those things that they did but once it hit a certain age it was like the jocks would become the minority and so we needed to sort of expand their horizons but then when I started in recovery I feel like I outgrew the town because I was kind of looking around it. I mean it is an absolutely gorgeous place, it's so beautiful but I don't hike, I don't hunt, I don't skidoo, like I don't do any of these things that people travel from
Lisa (26:12.814)
So pretty.
Shannon (26:21.418)
do, you know?
Chuck (26:22.989)
Yeah, yeah.
Lisa (26:24.59)
Did you find it hard, Shannon, getting sober there? Just because they had so much history for you, like going back to being a teenager there and partying there. And I guess I find it amazing that that's where you got sober versus a lot of people who would leave the place that they had so much history using, and yet you did it there, which I think speaks to how strong you are, because I feel like that would be harder.
Shannon (26:31.488)
Yeah. OK.
Shannon (26:39.77)
I know.
Shannon (26:43.521)
Right.
Yeah.
Shannon (26:49.884)
Yeah, well, thanks, yeah. Well, I didn't really, I think I was so ready to just do it for me and my family that I didn't really find it that difficult. And like my friend group was not the same friend group I had in high school when I was there, you know? But I also, it was...
Lisa (26:54.978)
But yeah, I'm just curious what your thought is.
Chuck (27:15.117)
in the recovery community there? Was, is it a strong community there?
Shannon (27:19.644)
It is, like there's lots, there's quite a few people with long-term sobriety.
Chuck (27:25.745)
Okay.
Shannon (27:27.604)
We get the people. So one of the main employers is a mine there, and lots of people go on what they call the program, where if they admit they have a problem, they go away for treatment, and then they have to be on the program for a year where they can be subject to random testing. And if they fail, then they have to pay back like the fees for going to treatment.
Chuck (27:44.316)
Yep.
Shannon (27:50.812)
So we would get a lot of those people in, you know, and you kind of cross your fingers and hope they do better. And I mean, it was lots of people that I knew and had known for years, you know? But coming back to me outgrowing the town, that was also part of it, you know? I outgrew my story that people thought they knew was my story, you know? I got tired of seeing the same people that are judgmental or thought they knew who I was
Chuck (28:01.292)
Yeah.
Shannon (28:20.926)
that persona I put on for so many years, right?
Chuck (28:24.469)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's interesting.
Lisa (28:26.479)
And did you feel supported there? Like when you started to say like, no, I'm not going to the bar, or you'd go to the bar, but say I'm not drinking. Like, did you feel like people were like good for you? Or were people like, oh, come on, Shannon, like, drink with us or?
Shannon (28:40.604)
Yeah. Well, I, it was kind of 50-50 probably, you know, um, there was definitely the people like not even one, come on, just have one, that sort of thing. But, you know, I had really strong rules for myself. And if people started with that, I'd just leave because I just know that, not that I'm going to cave to peer pressure, but I owe nobody an apology or an explanation for what I'm doing. Right. And so I'm not going to sit there.
Chuck (29:01.633)
Right.
Chuck (29:07.578)
No, no. And why would you put yourself, why would you hang around people that were that unsupportive of you anyway? Right? Right. Yeah. What a toxic environments. Yeah.
Shannon (29:11.504)
Exactly, exactly. Yeah. So, yeah. So I think it's like that anywhere. Do you know what I mean? And I think that's why a lot of people that are in recovery feel like they lose their friends, because they're not their friends. They're drinking buddies, you know.
Chuck (29:28.117)
Well, and I think that right there, I've wrestled with that a lot, partially because I was a dealer for a very long time, and I had a lot of people around me that were there for the money and the dope and the lifestyle and all of that, right? There are always people around like that. So when I would stop any of those couple of kind of big segments in my life where I was, okay, I'm getting out of the business, and I would be heartbroken, the two times specifically, just crushed. Where the hell is everybody?
Shannon (29:36.769)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (29:42.262)
Mm-hmm.
Chuck (29:58.357)
Right? So I really had to think about that for a long time. And I don't think it's as malicious. I'm not sure. I think that your friend, because you have something in common, I don't think that anybody was being so malicious, like, okay, well, I'm just using him for his dope and his money. I think it was just kind of a natural thing to happen because I had dope and money and they were into partying, right? I don't think there's any sort of malintent there, right? Exactly, right? Yeah.
Shannon (29:59.476)
Yeah.
Shannon (30:08.849)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (30:14.744)
Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, for sure. Cause that is friendship. What's this friendship? It's you have something in common, you know? I've had many different friends with different stages in my children's life. Like the hockey parents were my friends and then the figure skating moms were my friends. But then they move on and then I don't talk to them, you know? My neighbors, that sort of thing.
Chuck (30:32.157)
Yes, right, yeah. Yeah, right, so I think it's really easy for people to have resentments towards people in their life who were their drinking buddies and don't talk to them anymore, right, or they're partying, whatever. But I, you know, no, right, and that's just it, right? Like what fun is this gonna be? Like, you know, yeah, right? Am I gonna play quarters by myself or crying out loud? That's no fun, right? Yeah, no, yeah, right. Yeah.
Lisa (30:38.519)
Yep.
Shannon (30:44.168)
Mm-hmm.
But I mean, let's be honest, I didn't want to hang out with sober people. Yeah. Right?
Yeah, right? Like, yeah.
Lisa (31:00.566)
And the other thing I, so I feel like there's an added complexity to trying to get sober in a small town because it's harder to avoid the drinking buddies or whatever. And I also feel like, again, because in a small town, everyone, like everyone goes to the same places, you know, you go to the same restaurants, you go to the same pubs, you go to the same parties. I feel like to support, and this is just me talking more from, I guess, experience in
Shannon (31:05.845)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (31:19.595)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (31:30.214)
in working with patients in the hospital and stories have been told. But for friends to support you when you express your intentions to be sober, I think it makes them look at their own drinking and they don't want to do that. You know? And so that's why I think it promotes this, oh, just have one, you know, it's almost like minimizing you saying, look, like, I think I struggle with alcohol use disorder and I can't just have one.
Shannon (31:44.537)
Mm-hmm.
Chuck (31:45.811)
Who the hell wants to look? Yeah, right? Yeah, yeah.
Shannon (31:48.553)
Yeah.
Shannon (31:57.492)
Yeah.
Lisa (31:58.462)
And they don't want to acknowledge or admit that because then they have to go, hmm, like, where am I? Like, what's my, you know, where am I at with my drinking kind of thing?
Shannon (32:01.349)
Okay.
Chuck (32:06.363)
Yeah. Mystery does love company.
Shannon (32:06.99)
Yeah. Oh yeah, I'm sure that happens because I've had numerous friends reach out and be like, oh yeah, that's something I want for myself. Or where do I start? I think I drink too much. And
You know, so I kind of tell them the steps I took to get there. But I also tell them, like, I am in no means the keeper of your drinking. So with you coming to me, I don't want this to be a thing. You know, like, don't think that I am judging you if you take another drink. Like, I just I'm here if you need me. But I want it to be very clear that I'm not the keeper of your sobriety and I'm not going to be keeping tabs.
going to be doing anything like that.
Chuck (32:50.877)
Isn't that though, that is something I struggle with so much, Shannon, trying to make clear to people. So, because there's, you know, people in my life that are still using it. It's like, hey, you never need to lie to me. I will not judge you, I promise. They lie, the very next words, right? You know, and it's like, getting people to understand that I'm not here to judge you, man. Like, I'm just here to help you out if you need it, you know. It's such a hard thing for people to accept. It really is, right? You know?
Shannon (32:56.489)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Shannon (33:05.undefined)
Right. Yeah.
Shannon (33:12.704)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (33:18.262)
But that's because they're projecting their own judgment of themselves onto you. Like, I really believe that. Like, I think that, you know, if they have another drink, they're judging their choice to have another drink and they will project it out, you know?
Shannon (33:22.224)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Chuck (33:22.541)
Fair enough, fair enough.
Yeah.
Shannon (33:30.57)
Right.
Chuck (33:33.705)
Yeah, and there's that shame factor, which of course we've talked about a lot in Ash is Awesome, right? You know, how shame is such an extrinsic emotion, right? Just, you know, what a horrible thing, right? We've done Shannon, I don't imagine that you've had the opportunity or whatever, but we've done an entire episodes about shame versus, what am I, guilt, right? And how, what Ryan Bathgate has told us and you know, on the Klyscope Wednesdays, what do you,
Shannon (33:33.938)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (33:37.611)
Yeah.
Shannon (33:42.488)
Oh gosh, yes. Yeah.
Lisa (33:44.184)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (33:54.958)
guilt.
Chuck (34:02.509)
He's helped us to see anyway is that shame is it's not part of the human experience That is something put on to you that is not it's not something that comes from within that comes from everybody around you Right guilt is a driver guilt is a good thing, right? But shame is a wet blanket of shit is what that is and it just keeps you down. It's the boot on your neck It's the all the things right, you know, you know So if we can find a way to get shame out of our head life gets better really fast, right?
Shannon (34:09.508)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (34:13.064)
Mm-hmm. Hmm.
Shannon (34:20.769)
Oh yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (34:31.674)
Yeah, I mean, I think everybody, you're not going to go through life without being guilty, right? Because we all make mistakes. And, you know, if you've got a conscience, you're going to feel badly about making a mistake. But shame is like believing you're bad, like you're intrinsically bad, you know? And no one's intrinsically bad. And so, you know, I think that we should all experience guilt in our life when we fuck up. But I think...
Chuck (34:36.489)
Yeah, of course we do, yeah.
Shannon (34:37.589)
Yeah.
Chuck (34:46.833)
Yeah, it's horrible. Yeah.
Shannon (34:46.934)
Yeah.
Chuck (34:51.241)
No, no, no.
Shannon (34:51.495)
now.
Chuck (34:57.167)
Yeah.
Lisa (34:58.194)
in a perfect world, I think you go through life and you don't ever have to feel shame. But, you know, but it happens. Totally.
Shannon (34:58.832)
Yeah.
Shannon (35:02.508)
Mm-hmm.
Chuck (35:03.102)
No, but we do anyway.
Shannon (35:05.54)
I was reading this essay, I think it was an essay that Will Wheaton, do you know the actor Will Wheaton? He was in Stand By Me. And Star Trek, yeah. I wasn't a Trekkie, so I didn't know him from that, but... Oh, okay. Oh, right.
Chuck (35:13.149)
Yeah, from Star Trek, yeah. Yep, yep, yep. Neither was I, I just happened to know. Because of Big Bang Theory, right? Will Wheaton's the, yeah, he has a reoccurring role in that as well, so anyway, go ahead.
Lisa (35:15.122)
Oh, yeah.
Shannon (35:24.028)
Yeah, so he talks about and he's very open about, you know, his relationship with his parents and how it's not very good and stuff like that. And he has this essay that I really spoke to me about shame. And one of them was, you know, this summer, the neighbor had a niece visiting or something and he had this huge crush on her, you know, and he thought he'd go out and ride his bike and show off in front of her. And he just was like, feeling good about that, you know. And then he came home after one of these show off.
on his bike type thing and his dad started making fun of him for oh so big man going out like I can't remember exactly what it was but he's like the shame I felt in that just ruined that whole experience for me you know like and just in that moment he just took any joy I had out of that feeling and created this playback of feeling like he looks stupid feeling like it was a dumb idea
Chuck (36:23.189)
Which, which, small tree trauma, right? Right there, that alone could have just this everlasting effect on somebody's life. You know, people, yeah, yeah.
Shannon (36:23.822)
to me. Yeah.
Shannon (36:30.388)
Yeah, exactly. So that's what I thought of when you were talking about that.
Lisa (36:34.981)
How did you relate to that Shannon? Where did that tie into your experience of shame?
Shannon (36:40.372)
Well, I think a lot. Yeah, I know, right?
Chuck (36:42.689)
Here's the doctor coming out, eh? Right? That I've never heard you ask. I love that you did. I totally do. Now, I'm not Shannon, so maybe she's not loving it, but that's a... What a great question. Yeah.
Shannon (36:49.824)
Yeah.
Shannon (36:53.588)
Yeah. So it really touched me because I feel like growing up there was...
lots of different authority figures, whether it my parents, teachers, older children, you know, coaches or whatever, that just with a word could just cut you like instantly in a moment, you know, whether they know they're doing it or not. They think they're being funny, they're doing it for laughs. And, you know, I really find that was how people fit in Spark Word 2, is making fun of
Shannon (37:33.78)
bonding experience of laughing over how stupid so-and-so looks or can you believe they did that or oh he tried to Do this and you know like play basketball play volleyball, you know I remember one time I was in elementary school and I was on the volleyball team and
Somehow, like I was on the court and somehow the ball went like straight above me and I didn't see it, right? So teammates everybody's yelling like it's above you and then it like dropped right beside me and That was a mistake right but the shame I felt from the reaction from my teammates was like You know and that stuck with me, you know, and that's one of those moments
Chuck (38:17.025)
The fact that you're talking about it right now, 30 years later, whatever, right? Like, yeah, right.
Shannon (38:19.972)
Exactly, right? And I remember that. And that paved... I didn't... once I hit high school, I didn't play sports because that path was carved for me. You're not good at it. You're not... Like, why even try, right?
Chuck (38:32.425)
Kidding, kidding. See, now this conversation here, I kinda wish Mike was with us now, Mike Miller on, who is, he's the owner at, co-owner at Yachter Treatment Center in Thailand, where if all goes well, I'll be soon. He talks a lot about, he knows so much about trauma, but, so I'll speak as loosely as I can about the whole thing. Trauma doesn't happen to you, it happens within you. So that small experience.
Shannon (38:45.793)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (38:52.351)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (38:52.418)
Thank you.
Chuck (39:01.645)
it was 20 years ago, it was 30 years ago, whatever. That's an easy thing to say, well, it was 30 years ago. But the flip side of that is for 30 years, that's been snowballing in your brain. So you grab a few of those things together, that happened in junior high years or in high school years, they start snowballing in your brain. And yeah, it was 30 years ago, it was 30 fucking years of it snowballing into something in my brain that I don't even know was happening. And then so trying to address those traumas, wow.
Shannon (39:12.832)
Yeah.
Shannon (39:24.156)
Yeah.
Chuck (39:29.429)
right, you know, like, yeah, yeah.
Lisa (39:31.308)
Yeah.
Shannon (39:31.456)
Well, that's just it because how many, if somebody that overthinks like me, where you just lay down and your brain turns on, you know, that's 30 years of shitty self-talk, right? Mm-hmm.
Chuck (39:39.635)
Yeah.
Chuck (39:45.217)
Yep.
Lisa (39:45.698)
It's so funny even hearing you say that like an over thinker like my perception of Shannon in high school was easy going.
Lisa (39:58.794)
not affected, didn't give a shit, that nothing would penetrate, nothing. And it's actually interesting because like I said, I don't have close relationships with anybody that I went to high school with in Sparwood. And there were people that I hung out with. And again, it was trying to sort of fit in somewhere. And then it's so funny because if I think about the things Shannon has described,
Shannon (40:03.692)
Great.
Shannon (40:12.179)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (40:28.566)
Like I actually feel like we probably had more in common than the people I was spending my time with. Like.
Shannon (40:34.176)
Yeah.
Chuck (40:34.421)
And more than that, with everybody around you, with everybody around you, you've got these things in common. Because if you two felt like that, what are the odds that you're the only two felt like that and you end up on the podcast together? You could damn well bet that almost every other kid around you felt the same way. Even the hardest case, even the hardest case. Which leaves me going back to my school years going, holy shit, I wonder about so many of these other guys who you thought had it together. But, you know.
Shannon (40:46.825)
Yeah.
Shannon (40:51.228)
Yeah.
Lisa (40:51.647)
Yeah.
Shannon (41:00.892)
Yeah, yeah, that's true, you know? Yeah, I think so too, and that's why I tried to raise my kids to be kind instead of anything above all, right? Because it's hard. Yeah, like, the, yeah. I don't know, like, I don't, the school, I don't have a lot to do with the school. My husband's not allowed to be on the call list.
Chuck (41:14.053)
If I write, right, it truly is, you know.
Chuck (41:30.057)
Why not? Yeah, yeah, why not? Now let's talk about that for a minute. Sorry to, and I'm sorry, your husband's name? Pat, okay, I saw him on, he liked or commented or something on one of the posts, and I was like, who is this guy? And I, so I, and I, which I tend to do quite often, right? I was like, oh, that's who my, okay, so yeah, right. Okay, okay, yep. Yep.
Lisa (41:30.678)
know that story.
Shannon (41:36.832)
Pat. Yeah.
Shannon (41:43.465)
Go ahead.
Lisa (41:47.937)
Yeah.
Shannon (41:48.028)
Yeah, so he's a big giant, but yeah, he had a really shady school experience growing up. So he has a hard time. And he is very loyal to his family. Like, if there's a hill he's gonna die on, it's for us. And he's fair, but he will stand up for the kids. Like so many times, you know, if the school phones me, I like, sorry, there was a fly there. I like...
We'll take it and be like, you know, okay, let's learn from this, blah, blah. And he'll just be like, no, I'm not talking to them about that because that's not important to me. Like, you know, it's just not happening. Like that's fine with me. And so, yeah, he's not on the call list, but he also made one of the, the principles in Sparrow would cry ones, so that's part of it too. Yeah. As a parent.
Chuck (42:28.125)
Hahaha
Chuck (42:34.093)
Yep. Hmm.
Chuck (42:43.791)
Wow. As a parater, as a student. Really? Wow. Yeah.
Shannon (42:48.348)
Yeah, so... Yeah While going, I'll be honest going from Sparwood to Okotoks the difference in schooling was mind-blowing like Oh, like I couldn't even believe how much more like in this school here. There's like a quiet room. There's a loud room uh, my son has You know kind of
Lisa (42:48.942)
I feel like maybe that was deserved. So I'm like...
Chuck (43:00.309)
is that without a doubt I can only, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Shannon (43:14.76)
I don't know, like he needs extra help sometimes, my youngest, right? And they just accommodate that. It's not shame, it's not anything. Like, you know, even when my oldest was going to school in Sparwood, the discipline was to write lines still.
Chuck (43:28.989)
Right, really, right, like no kidding. Well, I can tell you, something I've talked about, I think in the show, certainly I told you about before, Lisa, was my stepson with, he was super hyperactive, like super hyperactive. The solution in small town Saskatchewan, and like thousand people town, right, like it was like really small, was to box him in at his desk. They actually put a cardboard shroud on his desk so he couldn't talk or see anybody else.
Lisa (43:30.05)
I know, like what the hell does that do for a kid? Like...
Shannon (43:46.977)
Mm-hmm.
Chuck (43:57.853)
and then they took away recess. This is five years ago, six years ago maybe. This is just recently, if you can imagine. The day that happened, they got to meet his new stepdad. I can tell you that. No, no, I'm sorry that's not acceptable, weren't my words, but it was what I was trying to communicate.
Shannon (43:58.944)
Wow. Oh my God. I can't even with that.
Shannon (44:06.24)
That's mind blowing.
Shannon (44:12.048)
right? And that would be my husband too, like I'm sorry but that's not acceptable, you know? My nephew... Well you might not have had like the communication skills back then that you'd have now right? But um...
Lisa (44:16.991)
No.
Chuck (44:28.081)
Well, one would argue that they were a little sharper and better beefing, right? You know, I got my fucking point across, I can tell you that much.
Shannon (44:32.452)
Yeah Yeah, yeah, so I also have a nephew who's the same age as my son and he went to school in Sparwood as well And I remember one recess. I think he was in grade five. He came in took his took off went to class and the teacher there Who probably should have? Retired ten years ago said like why is your hair so messy and he was like well I just took off your teeth. No you did that on purpose go to the office Like sent him to the office because his hair was messy
Chuck (44:57.713)
Wow, right? Yep. It's like being in a time capsule for crying out loud, right? You know? Right? Yeah. When I was in grade six in Strathmore, that was my first year out there. A kid came to school, Billy, oh, he was a he was a badass kid, but came to school with these like cut jeans. They're like with tears in them intentionally or whatever. And pink hair, he got sent home. They actually sent him home for that because it was like unacceptable.
Shannon (45:02.14)
I can't even. Oh it is! I always say that! Sparrow doesn't move down to the 80s, like in years. Yeah.
Lisa (45:04.563)
Yeah.
Shannon (45:12.417)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (45:20.131)
Oh yeah.
Lisa (45:23.63)
Yeah.
Chuck (45:26.137)
unacceptable and the hair was the big deal right like it was like are you kidding me you know and even back then i thought that's archaic like come on guys right you know yeah right yeah of course they were given the strap like two years before i got there still too so right
Shannon (45:32.62)
because that affects his learning so much.
Lisa (45:32.966)
Yeah, exactly. And also, I feel like.
Lisa (45:42.054)
And I feel like, again, with this idea that kids are trying to figure out who they are, right? They're trying to find their way. It's like, encourage them, like, celebrate their curiosity, celebrate them trying things out, you know? Like, who the hell cares if he's got pink hair? Like, what is that? Who's that hurting? You know? And do you think his hair is going to stay pink for the rest of his life? No, it's not. Like, he'll probably be over it in two days, you know? Like, yeah.
Chuck (45:47.029)
Yeah.
Chuck (45:56.499)
Absolutely.
Shannon (45:57.652)
Yes.
Chuck (46:02.261)
Yeah, right.
Shannon (46:04.8)
Yeah.
Chuck (46:07.969)
Probably not. No, no. Yeah, right, yeah.
Shannon (46:09.56)
Even if it is, who cares? Yeah.
Shannon (46:14.481)
Yeah.
Lisa (46:14.678)
Absolutely. And so Shannon, I wanted to tell you too that like listening to you describe the morning that you decided you were going to stop drinking, like Chuck will tell you, I don't get emotional very often. And like listening to that, I was like, pause, I was like, it's just like, I felt so, I don't know, like so affected by that. And I think in part, because I had this perception of you that
Chuck (46:28.458)
No.
Chuck (46:31.792)
Ha ha
Shannon (46:36.628)
Thank you.
Lisa (46:44.594)
at all your reality, like hearing the emotion and the sensitivity and the vulnerability and the shame that you were experiencing in that moment, like it just like, even talking about it, like it just hit me like a brick.
Shannon (46:46.91)
Yeah.
Shannon (47:00.008)
Yeah, it's making the mushrooms feel...
Chuck (47:02.575)
Hahaha, fuck sakes. Stop it!
Lisa (47:06.355)
Right?
Shannon (47:07.132)
Cause yeah, I know. Well, that's one of the beautiful things about recoveries. You can feel these emotions too, right? And I had lots of people tell me that made them emotional. Even my nephew, when he was driving to work, he's like, listen to your podcast, auntie was awesome. He said, but I was driving to work and I thought, fuck, I'm going to cry.
Lisa (47:14.337)
Yeah.
Chuck (47:28.218)
Which is, Shannon, I gotta tell you, remember before we were recording, I was about to say something that was relevant. Now I remember. Your episode brought more people to the website than almost anybody ever. Ever. Yep. It was like, holy shit. I was like completely, you should see the spike in the graph, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's totally what that's about.
Shannon (47:33.992)
Yeah. OK.
Shannon (47:41.524)
Really? Oh my God.
Shannon (47:48.18)
That's crazy.
Lisa (47:48.43)
I feel like we need to interject here a hashtag you are love.
That's what that is. That's what it is. It's people who love Shannon, who want to hear her story. Yeah.
Chuck (47:56.389)
100%, right? Yep. Yeah, yeah. Like it was, yeah, I was completely blown away. The website is a few months old now. So it's, you know, to say to the website, and I think he might be first place in the website, as a matter of fact, right?
Shannon (47:56.41)
Yeah.
Shannon (48:01.364)
Mm-hmm. Thank you. That's really special.
Shannon (48:13.237)
Yeah.
Shannon (48:20.992)
Do I win something for that? Like do I? Yeah. Ha ha.
Chuck (48:22.729)
Well, you got another appearance on the podcast. That much you get for sure. Right? Yeah. Right. Um, it's someday I'll hand out prizes, right? You know, how about I give you a 10% off on any hoodie you want. Yeah. Please order a hoodie. I need the money. Right. No, which is, and for me, that's, it was, it was surprising.
Shannon (48:27.132)
I like it! I'm happy with that.
Shannon (48:38.975)
Yeah, right? Helps both of us, yeah.
Chuck (48:48.553)
Because you were in the numbers with somebody like Missy Humes, and I'm sure Lisa remembers Missy Humes. She has this crazy viral post about how her daughter's an addict. Almost celebrity status in the Facebook world anyway with like 200,000 shares last time I talked to her. Right? So it was crazy. So her episode kind of...
Shannon (48:55.669)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (49:04.285)
Holy shit, yeah.
Shannon (49:09.629)
Of course.
Chuck (49:09.965)
I think there was one other episode that would compare to yours, and that was it, for the amount of people it brought in, like just immediately. It was just crazy, it was absolutely crazy, right? Yeah, yeah. And it was surprising for me, because sometimes I like to envision the show being about the families and all these big issues, and how recovery stories are kind of, eh. But it reminds me how important recovery stories are, right? Because that many people are listening to it. Somebody, and I guarantee, and I hope you,
Shannon (49:16.264)
Yeah. That's insane, you know?
Shannon (49:33.78)
Right, yeah.
Chuck (49:39.937)
take this, somebody's life was changed. That many people listen to it, I guarantee somebody's life was changed, right? You know, so, yeah, good for you, good for you on that. Yeah, yeah.
Shannon (49:40.96)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's amazing. That's like hard to fathom really, you know?
Chuck (49:53.713)
Yeah, yeah, right. I was trying to figure out the reason and I look at the numbers, it's people from Okotoks, people from Calgary, people from Sparwood, right, because I can see where people are, you know, watching from, right. These are, you are loved without a doubt. That's what that is, right. Well said, Lisa, by the way. Thank you for bringing that one in. But yeah, yeah.
Shannon (50:03.76)
Yeah, okay, yeah. Yeah.
Lisa (50:07.47)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (50:13.178)
Yeah. Shannon, can I ask you a question? How? Oh, we need a moment first. We all need a moment.
Shannon (50:16.954)
Yeah.
Shannon (50:20.966)
That's okay.
Chuck (50:21.132)
You could give that some space, absolutely. Right? Yeah.
Lisa (50:24.542)
Totally. I was curious, you know, I have a six year old, so she's little and at this point I get to control her world and keep her safe. But obviously kids get older and they've got to spread their wings and they've got to figure things out on their own. But how has that been for you, like trying to balance letting your kids do their thing with all the things that you've been through and all the things that you know?
Shannon (50:29.568)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (50:35.285)
Yes.
Shannon (50:54.645)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (50:55.222)
Like I just, I feel like that must be heard.
Shannon (50:58.188)
Oh, it's really hard because they hit a certain age where you just hope you planted all the right stuff in them and that they have that foundation that they can either build on or come back to, right? And so I kind of touched on that a bit in my episode of having to...
uh, make amends for my behaviors and how I might have affected them and, uh, making living amends. So I'm now, so the day, that night after the podcast, I took my son and his girlfriend to like a punk show. So I still go to concerts, but you know what? Like I, hold on one second. Thanks. Somebody's just dragging a chair across the floor.
getting a snack but um so okay i'll just start uh so i took them to this punk show right and so they had drinks and stuff but like i said uh i have a set of boundary recently that i won't buy booze like when we're out right um and it's not for lack of them asking but um i just don't um but i got to go
Lisa (52:20.686)
Can I ask why you set that boundary? Because I'm like, give me all the skills. Like, what was?
Shannon (52:25.308)
Yeah. So for me, right now, I've I mean, it's been a long time in coming because when they first started like party and I bootleg for them, but I felt like I could control how much they got, which is bullshit because. Yeah. No, I was sober by then. So I would. Yeah.
Chuck (52:42.753)
Were you still drinking at that time? Sorry to interrupt. Were you still drinking or were you sober by then?
Okay, okay, okay. Just trying to get the whole picture here.
Shannon (52:51.172)
So I would think, okay, well, if I buy them a six pack, that's what they're going to drink, which is complete bullshit because like.
Lisa (53:01.026)
Total bullshit.
Shannon (53:01.504)
But this is like how we think. So anyways, this is probably just in the last couple months where I'm just like, if they want it, they should be able to afford it and they should be able to buy it, right? And so it's like, I don't know, that's just an idea that I have in my head. But back to like going to this concert, my son went straight in the mosh pit, had a great time and I was right beside him, but on the outer, on the outer.
Lisa (53:30.103)
hahahaha
Shannon (53:31.456)
thing. But so they went down into the mosh pit but I was just outside of it. But I get to show them that I can do it sober too, right? So I lead by example. I... it's terrifying because like I talked about my daughter has this seemingly healthy thoughts around drinking right now. Who knows? I mean...
Alcohol use disorder is progressive and it's an addictive substance so we can think we have control over it but sometimes we just don't, right? But I really believe, and I've said this to my son, he's a carbon copy of me. You know, like we're the loud, happy people having a good time, you know, and I've just always had open dialogue about...
Chuck (54:01.773)
Who knows? Yeah, right, yeah.
Shannon (54:23.02)
taking, assessing where you're at and seeing is this a problem or is it not a problem and if it becomes a problem you need to come to me but I love or nagging doesn't prevent or cure it, right? So I can have the conversations but essentially it's not going to change what's happening unless they want to change it, right?
Lisa (54:52.046)
Hmm.
Chuck (54:52.297)
That is the reality, unfortunately, but that is the reality. Well said. Well said.
Lisa (54:55.414)
Yeah, because I feel like, I feel like I know these things in my head. But I still feel like I will be very high risk for verbally over talking and nagging and trying to control and, you know,
Shannon (55:00.318)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (55:10.684)
I know, it's tough. People say babies are hard, but it's like, when I actually, my mother-in-law gave me some really good advice. She said, if you ever want your kids to tell you anything, don't have a reaction to whatever they're telling you. And so, yeah, and that's super hard, you know, when they say some stuff and you're like, okay, yeah, tell me more.
Lisa (55:24.118)
Yep, I believe that.
Lisa (55:35.35)
Yeah, it's so funny you talk about that. Because so Alexis, right, we're like five, six weeks into grade one. And grade one compared to kindergarten, I see a lot of change, right? Like kindergarten, there was a lot more play, a lot more sitting on the mats. And now in grade one, it's a lot more sitting at your desk, doing your work quietly. And so, and she's a chatterbox and she's a busy bee.
Shannon (55:52.573)
Yeah.
Shannon (55:57.365)
Yeah.
Lisa (56:02.762)
and she'll come home and she's like, oh, like the teacher took away my play-doh today because I did this. The teacher took my pencil case away today because I did this. I kicked this boy in the playground because he was bullying me. I like blah, blah. And I'm just like exactly trying to sit there with a, you know, oh, tell me more about that. And it's just to the point where I started to say to her, tell me something.
Shannon (56:14.832)
Hahaha
Chuck (56:21.133)
I'm gonna go get a drink.
Shannon (56:23.673)
I know.
Lisa (56:26.286)
good about your day, because it seems like she's just more than excited to tell me about all the things she did wrong in the day.
Shannon (56:28.032)
Yeah.
Chuck (56:32.373)
Well, let's hold on to that, right? Because someday you'll be happy for that, right? Someday you'll be happy, right? Or appreciative is maybe a better word than happy, but yeah. Right? Yeah.
Shannon (56:35.876)
Yeah.
Lisa (56:36.406)
Right?
Lisa (56:39.89)
Yeah, yeah. And Shannon, I have to tell you, so I know, I know the father of Shannon's oldest child, because he went to school with us. And her son, I feel like he is like 90% you, but then there's a little bit of dad in there.
Shannon (56:50.147)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon (56:58.196)
Oh yeah, 100% and honestly like he has his mannerisms a lot too and I'll just be like where did that come from you know but yeah you know we were both kind of the same you know like good time at parties you know very liked like everybody liked him you know and that's very much how Simon is too you know yeah so he got the best of both of us.
Lisa (57:15.406)
Hmm. Yeah.
Lisa (57:21.518)
There you go. Love it.
Chuck (57:22.573)
That's wonderful. That's wonderful. So, ladies, we are coming up on the hour. What an amazing, I'm really glad that you decided to come back on, Shannon. I think we covered some territory here that we haven't covered in the podcast before, which is fantastic. New Terries, always great territory, right? You know, so, and I, you know.
Shannon (57:25.486)
Yeah.
Shannon (57:34.898)
Yeah.
Shannon (57:40.26)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. Thank you for having me. It was amazing and you know any time
Chuck (57:44.977)
Yeah, yeah. Well, I think there's a spot for you somewhere in the show here down the road as well, of course, right? So yeah, yeah. Before we go though, I have to ask you, you have to be, and I might've asked you this offline, and forgive me, my memory has got a random time lock on it. Are you a, like, you must be a big part of the recovery community. Is that, like, do you have a lot of people around you? Do you, because I asked this because of what we were talking about with your episode. Like, it was so instant.
Shannon (57:49.367)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Shannon (58:00.125)
Mm-hmm.
Chuck (58:13.653)
the spike in ups on it, like you shared it and everybody in your world, but I wanna listen to this. So are you a big part of the recovery community and how big of a part is that of your life now?
Shannon (58:13.867)
Yeah.
Shannon (58:24.092)
Yeah, well, so I've kind of moved more towards service in the recovery community. I used to attend meetings regularly, but now I'm more like I'm part of a community program and I kind of feel like I get more out of that.
Chuck (58:29.746)
Okay. Yeah.
Chuck (58:50.845)
Okay, okay. Yep.
Shannon (58:50.848)
than just going to the meetings. It's very important to be there for the newcomers, but to answer your question, I don't really feel like I'm a big part. I'm a part of it, but that isn't my big connections, especially with social media. A lot of it is I just really love people and I...
I know how important it is to, you know, they put a picture up of their cute little something and I tell them that they're cute, you know, and I just love that, you know, and I get that back a lot because, yeah, so I really think that's maybe where it comes from is the connections that I form. Yeah.
Chuck (59:29.941)
Ha ha ha.
Chuck (59:34.905)
Yeah.
Chuck (59:39.745)
be? No kidding, no kidding. Totally off topic, but now I gotta say this is something that crossed my mind all the time. If you have a content creator in your Facebook world or in your social media world and they post something, like, share, comment on it for Christ's sake. I'm saying this to the listeners, but you just made me think about it when you say something. You have an infinite amount of space on your wall, literally an infinite amount of space, and it takes you two seconds. So unless you have a moral objection to whatever that person has created, do them a damn favour because we count every single one of them, right?
Lisa (59:58.378)
Yep.
Chuck (01:00:09.949)
My brother, my mother, I give them shit for this all the time. I'm like, you have an infinite, can you just like, share and comment? Can you do that for me please, right? Like there's no good reason not to. So just when you said that, it made me think about it. And I thought, I'll take a second to tell people, right? But yeah, it does. It really does, right? Keeping in mind, when I put a one minute reel out, an hour for sure went into creating that, for sure. And that's an easy one, right? So it's like, okay, y'all watch it. Could you just like it? Could you have any idea? Because it means a lot, a lot.
Shannon (01:00:15.444)
Yep, yep, yep. Right, because that means a lot, right? Yeah, yeah.
Shannon (01:00:29.996)
That's crazy. Yeah.
Lisa (01:00:36.353)
Yeah.
Shannon (01:00:36.796)
Yeah, that's a good reminder for me too. Yeah, yeah, that's a good. Well, and it's very interesting, like, what creates the viral posts? Like, what is that? I don't know. Like, I guess if we knew that, then we'd be viral. Yeah.
Chuck (01:00:38.261)
when somebody does it, right? Yeah, right? You know, so to everybody that's listening, not just for me, but anybody in your social media world.
Chuck (01:00:51.329)
If we, right? And there's like the algorithms, right? It's all about the algorithms and trying to figure them out. But universally across the board, like comment shares, right, whatever platform, whatever, that is one of the big driving factors without a shadow of a doubt, right? So every single time you do any one of those things, right? Oh, I almost went into my exit monologue earlier. Okay, right. Yeah, yeah, right. Please do, yeah, no, go ahead.
Lisa (01:01:10.03)
You totally did. I was like, whew.
Shannon (01:01:13.897)
I just wanted to say one more thing, sorry Chuck, but I was thinking of this when I was going to come onto the podcast with Lisa and I just wanted to acknowledge that we kind of touched on this a little bit. That I...
pretty sure I remember chasing her out of a party once because I was drunk and angry. So I wanted to acknowledge that I did that and I'm sorry. I don't know, do you remember that? Yeah, okay. I was like, I should probably acknowledge that. But you know what, that's learning and I don't know. I was a different person then, thank you. Yeah.
Chuck (01:01:35.693)
Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.
Lisa (01:01:49.886)
Yeah, I forgive you.
Chuck (01:01:51.241)
Well, yeah. Oh, that's a lot right there, right? That's a lot. Like I said, we never have any idea what any of us are going through at any point, right? So I'm really glad that you got to come on and to people that are listening, maybe this is a reminder to you, right? You know, yeah, hey, yay, right? It makes me think about all the events I still have yet to do, right? I'm a year, it's coming up here, it's coming up, it's coming up in two weeks from today, as a matter of fact. We are going to be...
Lisa (01:01:55.82)
Yeah.
Lisa (01:02:01.054)
No.
Shannon (01:02:04.648)
I got to do another immense. Yeah, thank you for that Lisa.
Lisa (01:02:06.946)
Hmm.
Lisa (01:02:12.662)
Mm.
Shannon (01:02:16.064)
That's, wow, that's awesome.
Lisa (01:02:18.222)
That's right.
Chuck (01:02:19.229)
My one year is going to be on a weekend ramble, as a matter of fact. So, there you go. Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, yeah. But I still got a lot of amends to make, right? Ain't like a lot, right? You know? Yeah, yeah, right, right. So, yeah, yeah.
Shannon (01:02:21.982)
Mmm.
Lisa (01:02:22.478)
amazing. That's amazing.
Shannon (01:02:29.296)
I know, as they surface, yeah. You got lots of time, yeah. And you know when I think about mine the most is when I'm falling asleep. So you can't really do anything about it then. So then it creates effort. You have to have effort to get up and do it the next day. Yeah. Yeah, right?
Lisa (01:02:29.558)
You got time, you got time.
Chuck (01:02:42.998)
or memory, or memory, right? I have some focus issues that I'm working on. So, I want to call everybody at three o'clock in the morning is what I want to do because that's what it occurs to me, right? Memory with a random time lock. Yeah, I call it the oh shit con, you know, right? But okay, so here's the thing. At three o'clock in the morning, I dare not text people, right? Because I'm only a year, right? Like I can't.
Shannon (01:02:53.652)
Yes, I know. That's why I like texting or like messenger, you know? Yeah. They think you're loaded. Yeah.
Lisa (01:03:00.6)
Totally.
Chuck (01:03:09.417)
I can't send an email, certainly can't call anybody, message anybody at three o'clock in the morning because for me, and that's probably more about myself than it is about the people in my life, but I immediately think, okay, they're gonna think that I'm using. Right, you know what I mean, right? So it's a constant for me, it's a thing, I dare never send a text at three o'clock in the morning. Like it's a horrible, yeah, right?
Shannon (01:03:21.844)
Yes, I know. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.
Lisa (01:03:22.273)
Interesting.
Shannon (01:03:28.747)
Yeah.
Lisa (01:03:29.678)
And it's funny because I like with if I'm working call, right, I'll be up all night. And it's a kind of a bit and I'm a night owl anyway, but it's a big joke amongst like people that I work with who are friends of mine that like, you know, they'll wake up and it's not a surprise to them if they've gotten a message for me at 2am. And it never dawns on me that well, if I message someone at 2am, they're going to think I'm up to something like I just know.
Chuck (01:03:50.323)
Yeah.
Chuck (01:03:54.357)
But you don't have that history, right? You don't have a history of being up to something at 2 a.m., like for 20 some years, right? So yeah, right? Yeah, yeah. I constantly, I worry about it if I sleep in. I worry, like I always worry about it, right? About how this must look to other people, right? And then, and Ryan, you know, Ryan Bathgate from our Wednesdays, I said to, I was talking to him about this once, and I said, like, it's got to have occurred to you. He says, it'll occur to me when you tell me that you've used. And not before, man. You're my friend.
Shannon (01:03:56.628)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Lisa (01:04:02.746)
Totally.
Shannon (01:04:12.744)
Right, yeah.
Chuck (01:04:23.785)
Oh, that was actually a really big deal, right? You know, like, yeah, right. So, ah, anyway. It's, yeah. All right, okay.
Shannon (01:04:25.241)
Whoa. Yeah.
Lisa (01:04:29.794)
Yeah.
Shannon (01:04:32.328)
Yeah, that's nice.
Lisa (01:04:32.942)
that trust is almost gifted to you, do you know what I mean? And that the lack of judgment too, right? Because...
Chuck (01:04:36.713)
Yeah. Right, right? And I know, I know that if I used tomorrow I could call him and it would never even, it would be like, okay, so how was that for you? Are we back to it now? It wouldn't be an issue, right? I know there's a bunch of people in my life now that I could say that to if it came up, right? Fortunately, we're not there, but you know, so yeah. Anyway, that brings us to my favorite part of the show, and that's the Daily Gratitudes. Edit, edit, edit. Shannon, what you got for us today?
Shannon (01:04:45.536)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (01:04:46.314)
Yeah, no.
Lisa (01:04:53.078)
Yep, exactly.
Shannon (01:05:02.784)
Daily Gratitudes. One of my friends came into town last night and I got to catch up with her in person and I'm really grateful for old friendships that you just pick up right where you left off.
Chuck (01:05:18.473)
It's wonderful. It's funny, I'll pause on that. You can always tell when somebody's been in a program for a long time when we come up with daily gratitudes because they're simple, they're just nice things. Whereas most people try and come up with this grandiose thing that they're grateful for, for God and my family and everything. Whereas somebody that's been in a program for a while would be like a cup of coffee, a friend I visited, whatever.
Lisa (01:05:34.05)
Yeah, I've noticed that.
Shannon (01:05:34.62)
Right. Yeah.
Shannon (01:05:45.312)
Yeah.
Chuck (01:05:45.474)
It's an interesting thing. And it's funny that you've noticed that, Lisa, because it's very, very true, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Lisa (01:05:48.094)
have the muggle, right? Because I think that I used to be of exactly what you're describing and then just the realization that I can say I'm grateful that the sky is blue, you know? Yeah? Yeah.
Chuck (01:05:59.81)
It's huge, right? And I never try and judge anybody's gratitudes. I just find the differences are interesting to me. That's all, right? So, yeah, right. What about yourself, Lisa? What do you got?
Shannon (01:06:00.897)
Yeah.
Lisa (01:06:06.015)
Yep.
Lisa (01:06:10.294)
I'm grateful for my brother. I'll always say that the lessons he's taught me, I think I would be a different person if he weren't my brother, and it wouldn't be for the better. I think I'm less judgmental, I'm more open-minded, I'm more forgiving because he's my brother. And I'm grateful to have had Shannon on today.
We spent three, four years in high school together listening to her podcast. I'm grateful that I got to do that because it just opened my eyes to her experience. It was a very validating thing for me because yeah, high school in Sparwood wasn't easy. And I think it's really easy to take that on and feel like that's unique to you or it's somehow your fault that you had that experience. So being able to hear
her very similar experience of it was just super validating for me. You know, and yeah. You're welcome.
Shannon (01:07:19.636)
Nice, thank you, Lisa.
Chuck (01:07:21.229)
I like that. Yeah, yeah. For myself, of course, another great episode from you guys. Thank you so much for coming back on, Shannon. I had no idea the impact your episode was gonna have on both Lisa and everybody else in the world, and here you are to do it again. So I'm really thankful for that, right? And of course, your time, as always, Lisa, on the weekends. And final gratitude goes out to the listeners, whatever you guys are doing, the watchers, listeners, supporters. Again, I'm still not sure what to call everybody. Whatever you're doing, it's working. We're doing a...
Shannon (01:07:28.02)
Yeah, anytime. I loved it.
Shannon (01:07:35.18)
It's amazing. Yeah.
Chuck (01:07:49.897)
doing good things when we're getting the message out. If you see us on any one of the social media networks, if you could like, comment, share, do what you do. Something I keep forgetting to mention, on the website you can leave a voice message for the show. 100%. So I totally didn't realize we could do that, but that website just keeps blowing me away with the services it offers, and there's another one. So please leave a voice message, as long as it's not profane, I will most certainly put it on air.
And every time you do any one of these things, you're getting me a little bit closer to living my best life. My best life is to make a humble living spreading the message. The message is this. If you're in active addiction right now, today could be the day that you start that lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call into detox, go to a meeting, do whatever the hell it is you need to do to get started because it is so much better than the alternative. And if you are the loved one of somebody who's suffering an addiction right now, I'm just taking the time to listen to our ramble. If you could just take one more minute, text that person, let them know they're loved.
Use the words.
Lisa (01:08:46.954)
You are love.
Shannon (01:08:47.028)
you are late.
Chuck (01:08:49.249)
That little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings him back.
Shattered Stigma
Yatra
Morning Cup
