178 - WEEKEND RAMBLE - VAN ASHER

Chuck (00:01.366)
Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Weekend Rumble on the As Is Too Awesome podcast. I'm your host, Chuck LaFlandre, and with me in Virtual Studio too, uh, and with me in Virtual Studio, of course, are my two lovely co-hosts, Dr. Lisa. How you doing today, Lisa?

Lisa (00:14.516)
I am, I'm doing really good. How are you?

Chuck (00:18.006)
great thank you I'm great. Attica Howard this morning.

Atika (00:21.077)
I have my uppers, my coffee, I'm good.

Chuck (00:23.354)
your uppers were calling them okay right i didn't know and our special guest today is van asher van is a harm reduction guy to say the least how you doing today van

Van Asher (00:36.72)
I'm doing great, thank you for having me.

Chuck (00:40.414)
Ah, thanks for coming on, man. Thanks for coming on. I didn't have a ton of opportunity to kind of research you or what have you, but you've told us a little bit about yourself. So why don't you just kind of start with, tell us a little bit about yourself and how is it that you end up on my podcast at all, right? So what about your life gets you here?

Van Asher (00:59.652)
Okay, well, I connected with Annika and she connected me with you. A bit about my life, I started doing harm reduction in New York City in 1992. I had been a former unhoused drug user who started as a volunteer and was just pissed off that like we knew who was gonna be decimated by HIV at a time where we believed if someone got infected, they'd die in six months to two years and our government did nothing.

And so the best possible fuck you, if I can curse here, I could come up with was doing this work and keeping myself and my peers uninfected and those of us infected alive and well for a group of people who said it would be okay if we died within a short period of time and they took no action to prevent it.

Chuck (01:34.195)
in context.

Chuck (01:52.554)
Wow, wow. So how does that start? Like when you get involved in that, because back in the 90s, harm reduction wasn't popular yet, right? So not that it's extremely popular now, but it's certainly a little more accepted and normalized, I guess, for lack. But how do you get into harm reduction back in the 90s? Right?

Van Asher (02:01.915)
Oh no.

Van Asher (02:09.732)
It is. I just started as a volunteer. It seemed like the right thing to do. And all of a sudden I found myself there more than 40 hours a week. I was like, oh, there's two sex worker strolls. There's a serial killer on them. Sex workers are at the highest risk of murder, of DV, of rape, of getting infected. If they're you know. So would you guys be OK if I start doing outreach on the strolls three nights a week? And they were like, um.

Sure, go ahead. So it goes over police scanner in New York. I'm not sure if it still does, but it's a DNP or NHI, if we find a dead sex worker, which is non-human individual or dead non-person. And that pissed me off enough, yeah, that I put together a self-defense training course for sex workers with a friend of mine, Barrett Anderson.

Chuck (02:57.367)
Really?

Van Asher (03:05.8)
who was a black belt in Goju and a brown belt in Jujitsu. And we called it, don't hurt your attacker, kill him cause no one cares if you die. So things that we were teaching was, if you had a knife to my throat, I could cut your throat with your own knife without getting my prints anywhere on it. So we were doing like radical gorilla shit like that because it was early on, I didn't have to, you know, they were just like, yeah, do whatever.

Chuck (03:16.577)
Hmm.

Van Asher (03:34.912)
whatever you're doing. Like you're a crazy radical, go with it." And we helped catch one of the serial killers because we met a survivor of an attack and got them to work with the police sketch artist. I was getting free voicemails for the people on the stroll under the auspice of, I'm working with commercial sex workers that are trying to get out of the sex work industry.

and can't have prospective employers call a transient hotel. Um, and this can also help people reconnect with their families if they're not connected or would like to be. And in reality, I was saying, okay, look, if you give your number to regulars, if you have safe money coming at seven, you might not do something risky at six because there are some people out here trying to kill y'all and, and no one gives a shit. And, uh,

Chuck (04:29.398)
Wow, man.

Van Asher (04:29.7)
I just, and I was doing that as a volunteer. And one day they're just like, Hey, we have a grant, like, you know, do like interview for this position, which you're going to get. And I said, okay, I'll do this for a little while. And then 31 years passed.

Lisa (04:45.991)
Hehehehe

Chuck (04:48.712)
Doing what you love, obviously. Lisa, go ahead.

Lisa (04:49.223)
Can I, what, you said that these women were being called non-persons or something, what was it?

Van Asher (04:57.62)
non-human individual or dead non-person. I'd actually, exactly, well, you're not human if you're doing sex work on the street. And there was one woman, I was the last person to see her get pulled into a van and no one saw her after. I'd gotten the license plate and from someone else I'd gotten the person's beeper number, the person who had taken her's beeper number.

Atika (05:04.257)
What does that even mean?

Chuck (05:06.742)
derogatory and like.

Van Asher (05:27.684)
And I went to the police and tried filling out a missing persons, but was told that I couldn't because she was unhoused. She couldn't not, she couldn't be missing because there was no home for her to not return home to. At which point I started using expletives in the police station and fortunately our accountant's wife was an officer there.

And she came out and was like, she heard me yelling and it's, I have a distinctive voice, I guess. And she was just like, honey, they're going to lock you up. Like, let's take a walk around the block. And I'm like, fucking pigs, you know, and, and kicking the desk and things like that. But, but it's really and I feel like it's been an honor to do this work. I've tried leaving the work a few times. And he

keep coming back because I can look at my reflection in the mirror better when I do.

Chuck (06:33.183)
I-I-I-UGH.

Atika (06:33.42)
Yeah.

Lisa (06:34.28)
How has it evolved over the, you said since 1992, is that right, that you've been doing this work?

Van Asher (06:38.356)
Oh my God, so much, so much. Early on we were allowed to give in New York, we were allowed to give, uh, it was a one for one syringe exchange. So it was, we could give you, you know, would match what we gave you plus seven or give you seven if you had none. And that had nothing to do with health. That was just control. So I started doing things like I'd go, Oh, hi, Lisa, how many times do you inject a day? When could you get back here?

And if you said, oh, I inject three times a day, I can come back once a week. I went, okay, seven times three is 21. Let me just give you 30 to make sure you have enough syringes for each time. Cause it says use once and destroy on the side. Cause this fine point is not meant to go through seven layers of skin, fat, muscle, and the wall of a vein more than once. It's going to dull. Um, and that was illegal. And I got caught doing that. And the state threatened to pull our waiver.

And we were only open three hours a day, six days a week for exchange plus our outreach, which was like six or nine hours a week at that time. And we were doing over a million syringes with those constraints to give you an idea of how busy this little storefront was. And they threaten to pull our waiver if we gave anyone a syringe off hours. And so I'd be in the needle

Chuck (07:56.355)
Oh

Van Asher (08:06.452)
asking for a needle and I'd be standing next to a cabinet with 10,000 syringes saying, I'm sorry, I can't help you. And I actually had a failed suicide attempt that year. That was my second one. I was talking to Attica about them before, because my best intentions, someone probably got infected at that time that I wasn't able to give sterile injection equipment to as a result of my trying to do the right thing.

And it was at a time where we had AZT, we didn't have ART. And I was like, Oh my God, like I did the worst possible thing that I've been trying to prevent and I was in my early twenties, I didn't have, have the emotional bandwidth to deal with, with that. And now we're able to go, Hey, how are you? How can I help you? What would you like? What do you need? Um.

And one thing that really helped push it somewhat was COVID. So we started giving out a lot more and initially there was some pushback and it's like, well, we're telling everyone to stay at home. So if I give someone enough for a month, this is a public health service to prevent another pandemic because we're in the dual pandemics of, of overdose, which I really don't like that term and COVID. Um, and so we were able to, to really, I mean,

grow and change over the years.

Chuck (09:35.234)
That's...

Atika (09:46.538)
Yeah.

Chuck (09:47.886)
Okay, so that's really interesting that you say the overdose term, Van. We just, just yesterday, as I was recording next week's Kaleidoscope Wednesday episode, we were talking about that with Ryan Bathgate. He said, and I'm sure you're more than aware of this, I'm not sure you said it and used it yourself, but the idea that nobody ever has an alcohol overdose. Right? It's an alcohol poisoning. It's never an overdose, right?

Atika (10:14.569)
It's a poisoning. It's never an overdose.

Chuck (10:17.21)
So why is it an overdose if it's illicit substance or whatever you wanna call it, right? So, yeah, right, yeah. I think that's great that you worded it that way.

Van Asher (10:21.485)
It's, yeah.

Atika (10:22.005)
Yeah.

Van Asher (10:25.892)
I mean, I always say like, you know, if I take the number one cause of liver damage in the US is taking too much acetaminophen, which is like in Tylenol. And if I take, I can take 3000 milligrams a day, less if I'm drinking. And if I take more than that, that's an overdose because I know the dosage. The dosage is written out for me. But if I'm buying, let's just say a bag of heroin every day from the same source and one bag,

will get me either high or well, but one day it kills me. I did an overdose. I was doing the same dosage. It was the shitty drug laws that so it's a drug poisoning as well. I, I've, I like that term as well.

Chuck (11:04.694)
Yeah.

Atika (11:14.081)
Same. And I like to do like a cocktail analogy that I like to tell to people is that when you have a cocktail and you know exactly what's in it, the concentration of everything, and then you drink, you feel safe. What if in that cocktail in that batch, you didn't know, you didn't know what's in it, it could have been 95% of alcohol, you're going to end up in the emerge. It's not because you drink more of alcohol, it's because you didn't know. It's because

Chuck (11:42.987)
Yeah.

Atika (11:43.025)
you know it's unregulated uh just like when moonshine was around right so it's always like that it's like yeah

Lisa (11:43.155)
Thanks for watching!

Van Asher (11:45.328)
Oh, exactly.

Yep, when we had prohibition, people would go blind, insane, or die from alcohol poisoning.

Chuck (11:49.671)
Yeah.

Lisa (11:52.048)
Yeah.

Chuck (11:56.95)
Yeah, right. But the point is, it was poisoning still. Even during Prohibition, it was poisoning, right? Yeah, right.

Atika (11:57.249)
Yeah, the plum, it was a poisoning. Yeah, yeah.

Van Asher (11:57.272)
And actually, I mean, the Lancet has put out, yeah. Yep. And in the Lancet, if we look.

Lisa (12:05.559)
I'm like you Chuck though when Ryan talked about that.

Chuck (12:14.158)
Okay, so I'm just going to pause recording here for a second, guys.

Chuck (00:02.18)
All right, so we are back from the break. Van, as we were off air there, you started to tell us a story and we wanted to catch it. It just made sense to me. So why don't you tell us what you were talking about there and we'll go from there.

Van Asher (00:13.101)
Well, we were talking a little bit about violence and I was saying we had a participant at a program I was running in Manhattan and the clinic didn't want to see them anymore because they felt threatened by them where the client wasn't threatening them, the participant. They said like, oh, what did you do this weekend? And he was like, oh, you know, someone was getting in my space. And so I stabbed them. And I was trying to explain to them like he lives in a violent world, needs to protect himself. And violence is just another language.

speak. You know, and this was actually like one of when I told them that I was leaving I was moving to Chicago to carry on the work here. Like he and I whipped and we hugged each other and I said what you don't understand is like you just see someone as a violent person but I was helping him navigate and this is the part of the story that you didn't hear which is so beautiful. I was helping him navigate working with a social work intern and he said to me, he went, hey how

like call themselves I said what do you mean he's like you know that pronoun thinks I don't want to offend them and all the people upstairs were able to see was like a violent drug user but he understood this person wanted to help him and he didn't want to cause them any harm by misgendering them

Chuck (01:34.219)
Wow.

Van Asher (01:34.913)
And so I said, well, why don't you say, I said, you could approach it several different ways. You can say, hey, I'm so and so, I use these pronouns. What are yours? And he was like, bet. And he was like, I'm so and so, like, I'm male. And then who are you and what are you? How do I talk to you? And they were like, oh, you could, like I use the pronouns they or she. And he went, okay, cool. I said, would be cool if I just called you by your name?

Chuck (01:45.815)
Yeah.

Van Asher (02:04.908)
And they said, yeah. And it was like...

Chuck (02:05.58)
Wow. Now,

Van Asher (02:08.917)
When I was moving, I just want to finish by saying, like, and I told, he was one of the people I pulled aside from this program. I told, like, we hugged each other and we wept. But upstairs, all people could see is this violent stereotype of a crystal meth user that we're talking about, who was HIV positive and they threw him off treatment. And so I brought him to another clinic because I said, my job is a, as a healthcare navigator.

here, I'll navigate them elsewhere.

Chuck (02:40.914)
straight, right? So how many of those people that wanted to ban him from that particular clinic would have been that sensitive to somebody's pronouns? Right? And right, you know, you know, so that's that is a heartwarming thing, man. That really is.

Van Asher (02:50.636)
Exactly.

Van Asher (02:55.357)
I mean, I had people from that clinic walk into the syringe service program that I was running downstairs without a mask at the height of COVID. And I'm like, hey, you need to have a mask to come in here. And they're like, oh, it's good. I work here. And I go, no, it's not good. I have people that might be unsuppressed in the room.

and I'm not going to have you come in with your arrogance. Like, I don't care. Your title doesn't supersede my rules. And this is my program. And if you don't like it, you can see yourself out. And, you know, someone there told me I wasn't liked. And I said, I don't do this work to be liked. If I want to be liked, I'll get a puppy.

Chuck (03:21.75)
Yeah, right.

Lisa (03:22.07)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (03:25.454)
Wow, wow, right?

Atika (03:34.099)
Yeah. You don't, you're not going to be like running, running those programs. Yeah.

Chuck (03:37.48)
Yeah.

Lisa (03:38.486)
I love that.

Chuck (03:39.946)
Yeah, right, you know, yeah. That's amazing, man. Go ahead, Lisa, yeah.

Lisa (03:46.55)
I was just going to say, I see that a lot in the hospital. Like I'll get consulted to see someone in the emerge and it'll say, you know, like forensic history or, you know, has been incarcerated. And then I'll go and I'll ask them like, you know, what's this forensic history about? And I am assessing safety. Like I want to know, like, are you somebody who repeatedly assaults random people for no reason, which is very rare. And the majority of the time they'll say things to me

Van Asher (04:09.94)
Mm-hmm.

Atika (04:13.07)
next time.

Lisa (04:16.798)
I was hungry and I was stealing a chocolate bar from a corner store. Or I was riding the bus or the sea train to stay warm because it was the dead of winter and I had nowhere to go. And I got fined because I didn't have a ticket to be on the sea train. Right? And so it's just ridiculous because...

Chuck (04:35.776)
Right and that goes back as listed as forensic history or of having been in custody, right? Like come on, you know, come on, you know

Lisa (04:41.11)
legal history or you know, yeah, that's the thing. Like to me, legal history needs details. Tell me the details, you know, because the details matter, you know, like exactly. Were you on the streets and you stabbed somebody because he came at you with a gun? Like that's different than I went up and stabbed grandma while she was sleeping. Like what's the context, you know?

Van Asher (04:42.966)
Mm-hmm.

Atika (04:45.471)
Yeah, and it's like...

Atika (04:51.092)
Yeah.

Chuck (05:05.104)
Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Van Asher (05:05.345)
Alright.

Atika (05:07.419)
Like it needs to be a context, like in the downtown East side, I know that there's this one person who stabbed another person, but it's like because he was threatened at gunpoint that he stabbed this person. And I know this guy and I know the guy who stabbed and he never hurt me, never hurt any woman, would save a puppy. And just I think when people talk about, oh, downtown East side, there's a lot of stabbing and whatsoever. Why do you go there alone?

Van Asher (05:17.587)
Mm-hmm.

Atika (05:34.679)
It's because I know they're not going to hurt me. Like just don't be an asshole and you'll be fine. In the ghetto, if you're being an asshole, you get fucked, you know? Like, I like to say this, like when you go into the ghetto, don't talk to people who miss a tooth because they did something wrong and then someone punched them real hard, they miss a tooth. It's always like that.

Van Asher (05:38.166)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (05:49.281)
Yeah.

Chuck (06:02.094)
That's not, that's horrible and horribly inaccurate. Funny as it is, but I gotta say, don't talk to people with this, get to, I just about popped my denture out to say, oh really, right? You know, yeah, so, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh dear, oh dear, right. Yeah, yeah. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

Atika (06:03.991)
So it's like, that's.

Van Asher (06:04.329)
Yeah

Atika (06:08.232)
Right?

Van Asher (06:11.318)
Hehehe

Atika (06:12.846)
Yeah.

Lisa (06:14.719)
haha

Van Asher (06:15.245)
I was gonna say, this one got taken out by a car, but.

Atika (06:20.351)
Well, I cannot see it, but usually it's on the front.

Yeah.

Chuck (06:27.984)
Ah, wow.

Lisa (06:28.854)
Dan, can you tell us more? Like, I'm just super, I feel like, I sort of feel, I maybe check you the same, and Attica as well. Like, I feel like I don't even know where to start, because I feel like the stories that you must have. I'm just like, ugh, like.

Van Asher (06:39.149)
Oh my god. They're, they're...

Chuck (06:39.778)
Yeah, here we are like 15 minutes in and I'm like blown away, right? So, you know.

Atika (06:40.223)
Hahaha!

Van Asher (06:44.566)
There is so much. One thing I can, I was talking with Chuck about this and before we started, and I wanna make sure this gets heard, I was the keynote speaker at a harm reduction conference.

Lisa (06:45.13)
They're so...

Van Asher (06:58.045)
five, six years ago, and it was in September, which is recovery month here, and it was mostly people who worked in the drug treatment field, the majority of which were in abstinence-based treatment themselves. And one of the things I said was, in almost every treatment facility, someone says, look to your left, look to your right, one of you may make it. And by make it, they mean have continued abstinence, which is how they measure success. First of all, we know those numbers

lower but at a time where we're charging street

level drug dealers for murder. If there's fentanyl in their product and someone has an accidental overdose, when you're releasing over 66% of your population back to the street knowing that they're going to have continued use, when they've had a break and they're over eight times more likely to have a fatal overdose in the first month after treatment because there's no tolerance, should you be charged in their murder as an accessory after the fact?

if you're just saying to them, don't pick up and go to a meeting, and you're not referring them to harm reduction programs, which have been scientifically proven to reduce morbidity, but because you're not willing to go against the grain of, one is too many and a thousand is never enough, and we won't co-sign the one, so we'll just ignore it. And, you know, I've said this before, you know, the worst thing that I've ever heard in abstinence-based recovery,

is some of us must die so others may live. And it's the most horrific thing I've heard and I've heard some terrible shit. And in harm reduction, we believe like everyone has the right to live. And we're gonna try to help you do that. And one of the programs I work with, the Puerto Rico project here in Chicago, which is called that because Puerto Rico was sending people to treatment that either didn't exist

Chuck (08:40.706)
That's a horrible statement.

Lisa (08:42.794)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (08:51.42)
straight.

Van Asher (09:05.931)
and...

Van Asher (09:09.833)
or was just a scam to get them off the island. And they're just sending them here and this woman, Melissa Hernandez, exposed that and started the Puerto Rico Project. And now we do mobile outreach to encampments where we bring culturally appropriate food, socks, syringes, smoking materials. We have a mobile shower unit and things like that. But it's just like, and one of the things

Lisa (09:18.624)
Wow.

Van Asher (09:38.607)
she says is like part of her mission is to help restore dignity to people. It doesn't matter where you live or how you live. You deserve the same respect and dignity that so many people command. And I've worked with so many people in this field. I do a lot of trainings around de-escalation and stigma and how we're taught stigma. And I meet so many people who work in this field or work with unhoused

Chuck (09:56.418)
right.

Van Asher (10:09.127)
who say, you know, and so and so said this to me, and I didn't sign up for this shit. And it's like, well, actually you did. You accepted a job working with this population. And if words are gonna hurt you, maybe you should fucking leave. Because you should just take it like water off a duck's back. Most often when people are like attacking you verbally within this work, it either has nothing to do with you, or I tell people, try to consider it a gift because they feel comfortable enough

Chuck (10:22.254)
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Lisa (10:23.423)
Yeah.

Atika (10:26.83)
Yeah.

Van Asher (10:38.827)
they can unload this on you, which probably has nothing to do with you because they feel safer here and you know if you make it personal you lost and you know

Lisa (10:44.598)
Mm.

Atika (10:45.933)
Yeah.

Lisa (10:51.766)
And I also think that when people come at you verbally, I think there's an opportunity to demonstrate to them that that's not going to drive you away. So like it makes me think about a guy that I worked with and he was admitted to the hospital and he was in a high observation room, like a locked room because of aggressive behavior. I went to see him and he...

Van Asher (11:02.342)
Exactly.

Lisa (11:19.634)
was calling me some nasty words. Like, and you know, and it wasn't just using drop an F bombs, like he was calling me the names. And eventually I just said, you know what, like I'm not gonna speak to you like that, I'm not gonna let you speak to me like that. And so we'll try again tomorrow. And I left and I came back the next day to see him and ended up working with him for about a month. He didn't do that to me again, but I think it had been a therapeutic moment

Van Asher (11:28.212)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (11:49.546)
to show him that I can forgive you because he actually apologized to me. He said, like, I'm sorry, and I don't expect patients to apologize to me to make that clear, but he did of his own accord. And I said, you know, I appreciate that. It's, you know, it's forgotten. We're gonna move on. But I think there's a therapeutic moment there to show somebody that, because I think to some extent, some of it can be that they're trying to push you away to see, do you really care?

Van Asher (11:53.495)
Mm-hmm.

Atika (12:15.119)
Yes. Yeah.

Van Asher (12:16.969)
Oh yeah.

Lisa (12:17.05)
are you really gonna stick around? And so they'll push to see if you'll just disappear, you know?

Van Asher (12:21.981)
Exactly, because then you're just like everyone else.

Atika (12:25.148)
Yeah, because I think with these people, ooh, Chuck, did I make you sleepy? I'm joking, it's just okay. Chuck is sleepy? Okay. Yeah, like at the overdose prevention, yeah, people would call me...

Chuck (12:30.782)
So I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That was not. It's my it's my it's my hours I keep. I'm sorry.

Lisa (12:35.299)
Called out.

Van Asher (12:37.697)
something we said.

Atika (12:49.295)
lots of names and it's just like I used to just go into the higher barrier um safe injection and just sit and cry but I would cry it out there and then return but it's like because they don't have the attachment like a healthy attachment with families right so it's like they don't know who to let in who to let go they don't know what kind of model of attachment that they had so they kind

build like this strong big wall in which they just have to push people away so hard and then see who's staying for them. It's like I think there's a lot of vulnerability there. So yeah.

Chuck (13:29.169)
Yeah.

Lisa (13:32.394)
Yeah. And I think that there is to survive in the world that some of these people live in, I think there's a persona that they wear, right? And, and oftentimes that involves speaking a certain way, walking a certain way, just trying to look big, look tough. And similarly, kind of, and what you were talking about before is that I've seen it as well in the hospital where patients, you know,

get treated in a certain way because they're swearing. And I said, but again, they're not always swearing at you. You know, sometimes that's just how they've been speaking for the last 10 or 20 years. And...

Van Asher (14:03.405)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Atika (14:03.853)
Yeah.

Atika (14:12.471)
If they're from the street, it's not like they're PhDs. They're going to do foul language. And it's so crazy. Yeah. They are too.

Van Asher (14:13.577)
Well, also...

Van Asher (14:17.289)
Well, some of them are PhDs and that's we need to remember. You know, but I mean, I remember I was doing outreach on the sex worker stroll one night. I met this woman who was nine months pregnant, who had just been released from Rikers Island and was going to a methadone program called PAM. I'll call them out, Pregnant Addicted Mothers. And...

Chuck (14:19.706)
Ah, right. It's just thanks for that catch van. I was just about to say that actually. Yeah.

Lisa (14:19.847)
Mm.

Lisa (14:23.689)
Yeah.

Van Asher (14:44.561)
They denied her access because there was a flight of stairs and in her chart, her historic chart, it said she had seizures. They didn't ask her about it and she had seizures from cocaine injection. It wasn't a seizure disorder, which I have, or anything like that, so they refused to medicate her and she was on, you know, I think 90 or 100 milligrams of methadone. And so she went out to the street, she was in withdrawal, which induced labor. I actually had a reporter with me

and I had my German Shepherd, so I gave him my leash, and I said, here are the keys to my dog. If I come back and you're not here with my dog, we're going to have a fucking problem. I put her in a cab and took her to the better hospital, because I knew if I called for an ambulance, they were going to take her to the lesser hospital because she was an unhoused drug user and looked as such. I bring her into this maternity ward, and they're finishing this intake with this lovely person, and it's going swimmingly.

And then she comes up to the counter and they're just like, what do you want? And we're just so nasty. And she started crying. And so I reached over the counter and I picked up the phone and I dialed the number and she's like, what are you doing? I said, oh, I said, I'm her caseworker and I'm calling my lawyer. And what's your name? I just want to make sure the right person loses their job. And I said, here, sign this brown paper bag to the woman. And she signed it. And the woman said, what's that? I said, oh, it's a release. I'm now acting on her behalf.

Chuck (16:05.71)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Lisa (16:06.887)
Yeah.

Van Asher (16:14.237)
And I was just like, I'm sorry, what was your name? And the person was like, and I was like, we're not leaving till she has a private room, which she got. And we ended up working with that lawyer who's a very dear friend of mine, who I heard a bit about your background, Lisa, how you got into the field. This woman was an outreach worker in upstate New York who is so disgusted with how...

Chuck (16:17.186)
Ha ha

Atika (16:21.93)
Mm-hmm.

Van Asher (16:39.829)
drug users were treated, that she went to law school and became a lawyer and worked for drug users' rights. She helped navigate because the woman was putting the child up for adoption, that she could have visitation. She showed up for every court appearance and brought toys to everything and was a part of this child's life.

Lisa (17:00.054)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (17:05.822)
And I have to say, I think that from my experience, I think pregnant substance users are probably the most stigmatized of them all.

Van Asher (17:16.369)
Oh my god, yes. When I interview people for jobs, I say, a pregnant woman walks into the syringe exchange. What do you do? And people, all their shit comes out. They're like, I tell them if you want to keep this child. And it's like, I've only had one person in all the years say, hi, can I help you?

Atika (17:17.221)
Very, very, uh...

Atika (17:32.651)
No, you gift the syringe.

Chuck (17:38.05)
Ha ha ha.

Van Asher (17:38.141)
What if they just said, oh my God, this thing's pressing on my bladder. Do you have a bathroom? Like, or, oh, I want to, you know, and I've worked with people who said, I want to stop using during my pregnancy and then want to go back to using substances after.

Atika (17:38.532)
Yeah.

Lisa (17:47.177)
Yeah.

Atika (17:56.339)
It's up to them. Yeah.

Van Asher (17:56.513)
And we've worked with those individuals. You know, but people, it kicks up some, like we need to save the babies. And it's like, no, we need to talk to the person who's right in front of us and just say, hey, what is it that you want? How can we help you get that? We're talking about, mm-hmm, I ran a SSP in the South Bronx. And

Atika (18:13.675)
Yeah, the baby will be alive as the mother is alive.

Chuck (18:18.02)
Yeah.

Chuck (18:25.258)
An SSP, sorry? Okay, okay.

Van Asher (18:25.705)
there were a syringe service program, a needle exchange.

And it was a large program and there were a lot of Latin kings and bloods. And so I said, like, hey, you know, you guys are always on fighting and it's dangerous in the street. Let's make this like Switzerland in here. Like, and a lot of the violence went down. But one day there was a fight and I was ushering someone out and he took a swing at me and I blocked it and stepped back. Got him by his shirt and his pants and walked him out the door and said, come back

came back the next day and he said, hey, am I banned? And...

I said, no, of course not. You need these services. I said, I just want to say like, you weren't mad at me. You don't know me well enough. Like you weren't, you weren't lashing out at me. You're just lashing out. I said, I also want to say I blocked it and stepped back. I didn't block an encounter. I didn't hit you because you're not mad at me and I'm not mad at you. Like I said, I know, I mean, I said, I know your scenario. I said, I was, I was, I was unhoused, like as a youth, and I was so full of rage. Like, I can't imagine the pressure you're under because I know you're significant

pregnant, I know you're in a gang, I know you're unhoused, and I know what you do to make money. Like I can't even imagine the stress that you feel like. Has anyone talked to you about getting into a couple shelter or like is your partner getting prenatal care? And he said they're not. I said, okay, well, I'm going to have her talk to so and so. We're going to work on that other thing. But lunch is almost over because we serve three meals a day there. I said, why don't you go back and get something to eat?

Van Asher (20:03.727)
come back to my office and we'll talk." And he looked at me, and this is someone that towered over me, he went, can I, I'm about to cry. And he said, can I hug you? And I said, you know, there's all eyes on us right now, because there were like opposing gang members in the space as well. And everyone's kind of dialed in what's going on. And he went, I don't care. And he hugged me and he was, he put his head on my shoulder and we both started crying. And then he went to get something to eat and,

Chuck (20:06.496)
Wow.

Van Asher (20:32.965)
and a member of the opposing gang was walking out and like threw me an elbow and I looked at him and he went good looking out and it showed us the success of our program.

where even though outside the door, they were out for territory and to kill each other and control the drug trade, it was just a moment of humanity that the other person got. And people have this stigma that gang members and drug dealers and drug users don't have feelings. And I'll say this one other thing, there was this horrific thing where there was this older gay man who had gotten together

Lisa (20:52.935)
Thanks for watching!

Atika (20:55.433)
Yeah.

Chuck (20:57.898)
You're a movie, man. Like... Ha ha.

Lisa (20:58.919)
Thanks for watching!

Lisa (21:02.966)
Thanks for watching!

Van Asher (21:15.375)
young gay man who was an immigrant who came over and they were inseparable. And, you know, this is in the South Bronx is notoriously tough. And they were robbed one night and they didn't have a cell phone. And the elderly man said to his young lover, Ron, and he got beaten to death and it was over a dollar. That's all he had. He had a dollar stone. They're walking to McDonald's to get like something from the dollar menu.

And we had a memorial and the community came together and not once did their sexual identity come up. Because it wasn't important. What was important was a member of the community had been murdered. And so...

You know, one thing I hear is that like recovery, and I do things on redefining recovery because I don't think it's linear, is connection. And so when we create safe spaces for people to connect, things happen that people otherwise wouldn't even think about, let alone believe.

And I know like with recovery, like I said, I'm an epileptic. I've been seizure free for a long time, started having seizures again. My neurologist and his team was like, Oh, your treatment failed. No one was like, you failed your treatment. How dare you start having seizures again? You weren't doing that. I also, I race motorcycles. I've had a lot of, I've been to a lot of physical therapists. I'll say I've broken a lot of bones. And we've talked about the degree of my recovery and occasional setbacks in my recovery.

Lisa (22:50.252)
Thank you.

Van Asher (22:56.663)
Um

But when we talk about substances, like you're in recovery or you're not, and if there's a period of reuse, you've lost everything and have to start over, and that's bullshit. Substance use is the only place where we punish people for doing something. Like if you see someone who's getting chemo and they're standing outside of their treatment center smoking a cigarette through their stoma, no one's gonna go up to them and say, we're giving you less chemo tomorrow, or you're gonna have to go

Atika (23:05.871)
That's bullshit. No suburb days are gone.

Van Asher (23:27.455)
treatment facility to get it or you know what we're just done with you. You obviously aren't ready you know and you're gonna have to die but those are the exact words that we use for people who use substances because the big thing is we confuse well we confuse legality with morality and that's what it comes down to.

Atika (23:41.36)
a lot of stigma.

Atika (23:46.367)
Yes, it's like treating addiction as a moral failure. It's not. Yeah, there are, yeah.

Van Asher (23:54.853)
And we're taught who to punish and hey, I always use the example of coffee. I know, Attica, we saw you this morning, you said, I'm okay, I have my coffee, my stimulants, and you were 100% correct. And I think Lisa's getting high on some right now. Here's mine. But the thing is,

Chuck (24:06.868)
Yeah, she said uppers. Like, like... Well, shit. Okay, I'll break out my heroin. Okay, no.

Atika (24:10.937)
Uppers.

I'm gonna go to bed.

Lisa (24:15.165)
Ha!

Van Asher (24:17.289)
But the thing is, heroin is actually safer than alcohol. But the thing is, throughout history, we've outlawed coffee several times. The first time was in Mecca in 1511, because it was pulling people out of the temples and causing them to congregate, so they linked it with Satanism. In Turkey in 1600, if you're drinking coffee publicly, it was a crime punishable by death.

Chuck (24:21.59)
without a doubt.

Chuck (24:41.538)
Really?

Van Asher (24:41.565)
And around the same time, Pope Clemente VIII loved coffee. And you gotta ask yourself, like, what's the holiest of holy doing dabbling with Satanism? But that's like a whole separate conversation. But he had apparently said something along the lines of, why should just the infidels be able to enjoy the devil's brew? So he blessed and baptized coffee, and we had coffee houses pop up all throughout Europe. Nothing changed about the substance caffeine

Van Asher (25:11.819)
And we're seeing this now with marijuana. I remember there was a commercial when I was a little kid a couple was going up an escalator And all of a sudden the guy throws the woman over and she falls to her death in a very dramatic way and you hear the voice over say like he just smoked a marijuana cigarette and it's like Exactly weed from the devil's garden and the only thing I ever killed after smoking a joint was a tray of brownies But but people had this

Atika (25:28.497)
serious.

Chuck (25:28.534)
Reaffirmed madness.

Chuck (25:38.226)
I just fuck six

Van Asher (25:41.359)
that like marijuana was gonna cause you to do these heinous crimes. And now it's like there are moms doing goat yoga, smoking joints, saying it makes me a better parent when Rikers Island is still filled with black and brown faces of people who are selling weed who still haven't been released.

Atika (25:41.44)
Yeah.

Chuck (25:48.811)
parts of this.

Atika (26:00.207)
I like to talk about addiction with that as well and citing the moonshine, how moonshine worked and everyone was like you know diet of alcohol poisoning having 95% alcohol content in it. But I also like to point out about other species of animals who are basically quote unquote junkies okay because it's like dolphins can get high. The reason why cats like catnip is because you know it's kind of altering. It's just like

at a certain point that you go past the evolution, it's just that you like substances that will alter you. And like mouse, for instance, they prefer to be high rather than like eat or have sex. And it's just like humans will find ways to be mentally altered.

Van Asher (26:52.241)
And that study was flawed with the rats. And there's, yep, yep. The thing is also they had no community, they were isolated. And when they redid that study with community, they weren't using at the same level.

Atika (26:53.759)
Really? Oh, I didn't know that.

Atika (27:01.011)
Oh that's true, they were isolated. That's true.

Lisa (27:02.022)
Yeah, I was going to say they chose the yeah.

Chuck (27:03.155)
Yeah, that's the video. Yeah.

Rat Park. Yeah.

Atika (27:11.204)
Yeah, yeah, they were isolated. That's true.

Van Asher (27:11.537)
And it was skewed purposely to say, look at addiction and these bad people, and this is what you're gonna do. You're gonna choose this over food. But when it was done in an equitable way, I'll use that word because it's such a buzz phrase these day, it disproved itself. And we are a drug-using society, and what you're saying about sex and food, like they light up the same synapses in the brain as substances. So if I was to tell all of you like, hey Chuck, stop smoking,

Chuck (27:29.742)
Absolutely.

Atika (27:31.704)
We are charged.

Atika (27:37.09)
Yeah.

Van Asher (27:41.391)
Stop drinking coffee, stop fucking, stop eating things that make us feel good. I binge eat to feel better when I feel badly. I know that it's not my relationship with food in that way, is not quote unquote healthy, but you know what? Don't try to take it from me. Like who the fuck are you to like tell me how I should feel good? Like the reasons.

Chuck (27:52.382)
Absolutely right.

Chuck (28:03.694)
Right, right. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Okay, Attica's just happy she gets to curse without me threatening her job as a co-host right now, right? I'm sure...

Atika (28:04.079)
Who the fuck are you, yeah?

Lisa (28:12.651)
Ha ha!

Atika (28:13.743)
multiple times like two weeks ago.

Van Asher (28:14.02)
Sorry, it's-

It's the Brooklyn in me, but yeah, please.

Chuck (28:20.439)
Yeah, actually, I want to interrupt you just before we get too far away from it. What you were saying about the brownies and the weed in that. It was just funny because this morning I made a reel and I'm just going to play it for you because it's just the odds of you saying that right now are just hilarious. Right. So we are.

Van Asher (28:32.375)
Yeah, yeah.

Chuck (28:49.334)
Hahaha

Van Asher (28:50.035)
Hahaha

Chuck (29:47.057)
There you go, right?

Van Asher (29:47.633)
And that's so funny. I've been doing stand-up since the 80s. I'm actually incredibly funny. And, and, and yes, yes.

Atika (29:53.349)
are you are

Chuck (29:53.458)
Just ask yourself, eh? Have you legitimately been doing stand-up though before you continue? Oh, okay, okay.

Van Asher (30:00.589)
And one of the bits I used to do is about the commercial that like, this is your brain and then they crack an egg. This is your brain on drugs. That never made me want to stop drugs. If anything, it put my friends and I in a dangerous scenario, because it would be safe at my house. It would be 4 a.m. And would see this is your brain. This is your brain on drugs. And inevitably someone would be like, hey man, anyone else hungry? And so we'd have to get into a car and drive impaired, looking for a Denny's.

Chuck (30:23.544)
Ha ha

Chuck (30:27.223)
Ha ha!

Atika (30:28.424)
Hahaha!

Lisa (30:29.29)
to get some fried eggs.

Van Asher (30:29.501)
Like, it did absolutely nothing to prevent...

Chuck (30:31.094)
Oh my god, the material, the material. Oh my god, this is great.

Van Asher (30:34.997)
to prevent and I mean a lot of a lot of things were based on true things. I'd gotten stopped with a friend. We actually were having a fist fight in the car and we're driving down a one way the wrong way right past a police car at a stop sign. It was like I couldn't have scripted this and I felt something on the inside of my jacket, my leather jacket. And so I just tossed it under the seat and the cop came up and was like, get out of the fucking car. My friend's like, yes, sir. And he goes, not you, the passenger. What'd you shove under the seat, boy? And I was like, how did you?

Chuck (30:49.546)
Sounds like reefer madness, Van. It sounds like reefer madness, right? Yeah.

Van Asher (31:05.071)
that are you super cop?" I was ripped and I was like and I realized what was and I was like you're not going to believe me you have to check and he's like what was it I'm like I'm not telling you got to see and so I'm now against the car spread eagle his partner's frisking me and he pulls it out and he goes why'd you shove a fucking butterfinger under the seat?

Chuck (31:17.102)
Ha ha ha!

Chuck (31:27.246)
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Van Asher (31:30.097)
And I said, and I did the mental body search and I had nothing on me. And I said, well, in all honesty, sir, I'm used to carrying a weapon and a large quantity of drugs at any given time. And it was a natural reaction. And he said, where are the drugs? I went, oh, they're at home on my kitchen table. And I just picked up like an ounce of Coke. And he's like, where do you live? I was like, none of your business. None of your business. You're not welcome in my house. But thank you for asking.

Chuck (31:36.014)
Jesus Christ.

Chuck (31:40.186)
Oh.

Chuck (31:46.23)
Fuck.

Lisa (31:59.523)
Ha!

Van Asher (31:59.817)
You know.

Atika (32:00.267)
This is so funny.

Chuck (32:01.998)
Oh my god, why did you shove- I'm- you just named the episode, Van. Why'd you shove a fucking Butterfinger under the seat? And so I'm just writing that down before I forget, right? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Van Asher (32:03.897)
Heh.

Atika (32:07.552)
I'm gonna go to bed.

Van Asher (32:08.665)
Exactly.

Lisa (32:13.334)
I'm so happy that the audio is now working. We would have the whole thing. Yeah.

Atika (32:17.756)
I know.

Chuck (32:18.378)
Right, if we had missed that and we all stood here looking confused and didn't laugh, that would be horrible, right? The real would be nowhere near as good, because I can tell you that's the first one I'm making when I'm done this, right?

Van Asher (32:20.237)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Atika (32:21.763)
Yeah, yeah.

Lisa (32:28.118)
But it's also like, Van, you know, you haven't watched these podcasts. But if you do at some point, like I just feel like you have come home. Because like every, like just listening to you talking about connection, I mean, it comes up all the time that we talk about, you know, what we need to battle addiction is connection.

Chuck (32:38.443)
Hahaha

Van Asher (32:38.919)
Excellent.

Chuck (32:45.366)
All the time, yeah. Huge, huge part of what we do.

Lisa (32:51.338)
talking about medical analogies and how, you know, would we do these things to someone who has lung cancer from smoking? Do we withhold their chemotherapy? Like all of the things you're talking about are stuff that we often talk about. Yeah.

Chuck (33:06.442)
No kidding, no kidding. You've made up for that thing last weekend there, Attica, or a couple weeks ago, I guess it was, right? From our last episode together. You've made up for that now by bringing Van onto the show, just so you know, right? Yes, yes. I know, right? I know.

Van Asher (33:07.597)
one of the most beautiful things.

Lisa (33:15.942)
Yes. And I feel like Van needs to come back already. We're not even done. But I'm like, already I'm like, you need to come back.

Van Asher (33:17.841)
One of... Oh, sure. One of...

The SSP that I worked at in the South Bronx is called St. Anne's Corner of Harm Reduction. And Joyce Rivera, the founder and ED, did something called The Bronx Has Talent and would rent the Puerto Rico Traveling Theater and often worked with their creative director to help the participants of the program and staff put on a...

show in this 150 seat theater and then would invite funders and the public and people's families to come see them perform.

And I know as someone that first of all, I was misdiagnosed with a seizure disorder as a kid. So I kept saying something's wrong and was told nothing was. So I felt unheard. But then to be a homeless youth, people put their blinders on because they don't want to see you. I remember like as in a meeting with the Department of Health and they're talking about working with unhoused people and someone said, oh, it's a hard to reach population. I said, it's not. I said, when you get off the subway tonight and someone asks you for change, don't pretend they're invisible.

Chuck (34:09.43)
Ha! That's another one.

Chuck (34:14.762)
scene.

Atika (34:21.303)
No, just do it.

Van Asher (34:27.855)
and just walk past them, just have a conversation, whether you give them money or not. You can say, oh, you know, whatever, and you've just engaged them. It's not a hard to reach population, just reach them. And yeah. Oh no, and I just want to say, so we tell people, if you feel unseen or unheard, you're gonna have the opportunity to have 300 eyes and ears on you to say or do whatever you want. Like here's your moment, and we'll help you refine and whatever.

Atika (34:36.291)
No.

Lisa (34:37.802)
Van, do you know that? Sorry, go ahead.

Chuck (34:57.315)
Wow.

Lisa (34:57.926)
Then, check also has another, I don't, what is it? Another podcast, like the Morning Cup of Kindness. I don't, right? Right? But it just ties in so well. So I had gone on there and told a story. I have a six-year-old and by choice, I don't take her to shopping malls. I don't take her grocery shopping. And obviously I'm privileged that I can leave her home with dad and not, you know, I'm like, I'd rather her be in the dirt instead of in the shopping mall.

Chuck (35:04.178)
Yeah, yeah, it is another podcast. Oh yeah, oh man, oh.

Lisa (35:27.258)
I took my daughter to a grocery store and we came out and there was a gentleman, a homeless gentleman there, I think high on some form of opiate, sort of nodding off. And we were walking towards the car. And the first question she said to me is, Mom, what's wrong with that man? Right? So we had a conversation essentially about privilege and about the fact that this man had a hard life and probably didn't have a lot of the things that he needed.

and we kept walking. And the next thing she said to me is...

Chuck (36:03.838)
Here it goes.

Lisa (36:05.386)
Why do people walk past him like he's not there? She's six. You know, and it's.

Van Asher (36:09.661)
Exactly. And similarly, I was doing a training.

Chuck (36:12.002)
from the mouths of babes, right?

Van Asher (36:16.057)
at a hospital setting and you know one of the security guards said you know I don't want kids in the ER seeing this so like I tell people if you don't get out here I'm going to beat the shit out of you and I said do you think it's going to be more traumatic to have to explain to a child why this person in a position of power just got violent on someone without any?

Atika (36:40.248)
Yeah.

Chuck (36:41.571)
Yeah, right.

Van Asher (36:41.909)
And they just looked at me and I was like, don't want an answer, just think about it for a while. You know, and at the end of the training, the security officer came up to me and he went, I never thought of it like that. And I said, okay, well, remember like, this is where people are coming because they're not having their best moment. I was also an EMT, you know, and like, you know, and I was...

Atika (36:47.402)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (37:06.806)
of course you were, Jesus. I, I. Ha ha ha.

Atika (37:09.019)
What is it that you're not?

Lisa (37:11.478)
Stand-up comedian, EMT, lifesaver. There you go. Yeah.

Van Asher (37:12.061)
I was, I race brakeless motorcycles, but I was, yeah. Yep, there's something called the Hotties of Harm Reduction where we've taken all of our clothes off for a fundraiser that benefits small harm reduction programs. So you sell them, you could log on and buy them. Well, I'm holding.

Atika (37:12.515)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Chuck (37:18.223)
And evil can evil on the side.

Atika (37:18.871)
The calendar model, the hotties for hum reduction. Hotties of hum reduction.

Lisa (37:26.762)
Seriously.

Atika (37:28.566)
Yeah.

Chuck (37:32.398)
I'll take your word, I'm probably not gonna buy that calendar, I'm just gonna say, but you know, right? But we'll provide a link in the show notes if you give it to me where other people can, most certainly. Right?

Van Asher (37:38.801)
I'm actually holding up another calendar in front of my junk, as it were. So I'm in a convention hall at a conference in Puerto Rico last year where I was just bucking it. I turned it into, you know, from a convention hall. I turned it into an exhibitionist hall.

Chuck (37:44.58)
Oh.

Atika (37:45.967)
I saw the calendar. Ha ha ha.

Atika (38:02.723)
laughs

Van Asher (38:04.265)
where, so I was just like standing there holding a calendar in front of my privates. But it was really a funny conversation because the photographer Nigel, who's a dear friend of mine, was like, he's from England, was like, hey, yeah, should take off your shirt. And he went, you know what, news your trousers. And I was like, okay. And he goes, you know what, yeah, drop the skivvies. So I'm just standing there naked in this convention hall, and people were walking by. Someone walked up to the table.

to them and he goes you know what net hold another calendar in front of you willy and i was like oh okay you know yeah so um but

Atika (38:38.982)
Who will it?

Chuck (38:42.602)
Wow, it was a funny conversation. Because you had to qualify that statement. It's a funny conversation, right? Yeah, yeah, okay. Jesus, oh my Lord, oh my Lord, oh my Lord. I want to take a quick moment here to, oh, I don't think I'm going to cut a lot of commercials in on this one, just our PSA. And that's because I just don't want to. But I was going to take a moment to be a little self-indulgent and let people know about my GoFundMe page for my.

Lisa (38:43.41)
You know I'm looking at it right now, right?

Atika (38:45.641)
I think Lisa is looking.

Van Asher (38:48.806)
Excellent.

Atika (38:50.835)
Yeah.

Van Asher (39:06.773)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (39:10.166)
my trip to Thailand. My family's covering most of the costs, but I still like I'm still short in a significant way. So if anybody's listening and you know can help out with that, of course there'll be a link in the show notes. More than happy to dedicate, you know, if you want to dedicate any donation you make maybe to somebody who's been lost, lost or battled with addiction, whatever. You know certainly talk about even potential to do full episode dedications, but I'll definitely put a fundraiser in the in the show notes for that.

Yeah, anyway, I went totally off topic there, but I'm like, oh, I better sneak this in at some point. So yeah. And you know what, let's talk about, now that you mentioned it, Lisa, the morning cup of kindness. So Van, that's definitely something I would really love if you partook in for, and the great thing about morning cup of kindness is it's five minutes, right? The whole episode is five minutes. There's a podcast.

Lisa (39:47.679)
fair.

Atika (39:48.332)
Bye.

Van Asher (39:48.84)
Oh, definitely.

Van Asher (39:58.561)
Sure.

Van Asher (40:03.523)
Okay.

Chuck (40:07.318)
Maybe I should send them a bill every time I talk about this. There's a podcast called Morning Cup of Murder, and it's massively popular, massively, like top, whatever, half a percent, 1% in the world, right? And it's a five minute story about murder every day. And I was like, bullshit, we could do better than that. Right, like what a twisted world we live in, right? So that's where Morning Cup of Kindness came. And what it's evolved into now is, it's supposed to be daily, I've fallen off of that, just, it's hard to keep up to, but I'm working on it. You can advertise.

a non-profit or fundraiser by coming on and talking, giving me a five minute story about kindness. And then you can take the last minute to discuss whatever fundraiser or charity you want to, right? So it's just kind of a way to get the word out about some good things and kind of go from there. So you've got plenty of stories, I'm sure, and you've got stories about any genre, we want any vernacular, we want to go down, I'm sure, but.

Lisa (40:56.51)
Mm-hmm.

Atika (41:00.228)
Yeah.

Chuck (41:03.222)
Um, you know, it'd be great if you came back and did one of those for us, you know, it's again, it's only five minutes out of your day. So, yeah, yeah.

Van Asher (41:06.797)
Sure, I would love that.

Lisa (41:08.982)
Yeah. Van, are you comfortable telling us a little bit about your journey? Because you talked about you were unhoused and substance using, I don't know if you're still substance using or not, but just kind of your own personal journey and maybe what helped you along the way?

Atika (41:14.475)
I was gonna ask.

Van Asher (41:28.045)
Sure. Well, I mean, really, you know, harm reduction was really the primary thing. You know, I had gone to...

Absinthe is baked, 12 step stuff. And I heard so many, there was a lot I didn't agree with and people would say, oh, take what you like and leave the rest. But I'd be like, you know, there are certain things that where it's like, if there's something wrong with the person, place, thing or situation, I need to look at my part. And I'm like, that's co-signing rape culture. That's like, not everyone has a part to do with everything. That's co-signing child's molestation

Chuck (42:04.398)
Move.

Atika (42:07.619)
Mm-hmm.

Van Asher (42:11.635)
and no, like I felt badly enough about myself at parts of my life and but you know harm reduction is just as loving and you know I primarily

don't do anything now, more so for the two reasons that like, with my use, I often become unhoused and I like a roof over my head. But also it allows me to do things like I'm an

Atika (42:50.691)
Oh, they gotta earn their paycheck, right?

Chuck (42:52.588)
Okay, hold on, hold on. Brakeless motorcycles?

Van Asher (42:56.425)
Yeah, because brakes just slow you down.

Chuck (42:59.571)
WTF. Alright, what the fuck.

Lisa (43:01.45)
So how do you slow down?

Atika (43:03.119)
Howdy.

Van Asher (43:03.371)
Yeah. You have an extra lap if you need it. You downshift and you kill the engine and that'll cause rear wheel drag and you put down your feet like the Flintstones.

Lisa (43:08.758)
Okay.

Atika (43:12.479)
You make neurologists earn their paycheck, that's what you do.

Chuck (43:12.782)
brakeless motorcycle.

Van Asher (43:16.593)
Oh yeah, and my neurologist loves me. I love my neurologist. Yeah, I love my neurologist. And no, there's only four classes of brakeless bikes.

Chuck (43:17.598)
I just developed a whole new trauma I have to address when I get to Thailand for Christ's sake. Brakeless motorcycles, okay.

Atika (43:22.487)
Break a leg?

Chuck (43:26.454)
You don't love him, you wouldn't do things like that if you loved him, Van. Right?

Atika (43:29.027)
Hehehe

Van Asher (43:30.005)
It's, it's, we have a great working relationship, but he'll tell his other patients, he'll go, I have this fucking patient who lives his life. He's like, if your, if your seizures are controlled or controlled enough that you can do things, do whatever you want, like embrace your life. And so, yeah, so I do. And, or I try to.

Chuck (43:35.822)
Six. I'm back.

Lisa (43:45.364)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (43:55.064)
Jesus Christ.

Lisa (43:56.01)
I love it.

Atika (43:56.759)
You see, I remember you said...

Lisa (43:58.958)
So the 12-step abstinence didn't really, that didn't fit for you by the sounds of it.

Van Asher (44:06.523)
It served its purpose early on. I'm a big believer in like, if you're trying to make improvements in your life and you find something that works for you and it's not causing harm to others, run with it. And if that's what it is for you, if that's what it is for you,

Chuck (44:10.754)
Haha. See? I love them. I love them. I do. Yeah.

Lisa (44:14.854)
It belongs here.

Atika (44:15.875)
He belongs, he belongs here.

Atika (44:26.583)
Yeah.

Chuck (44:26.774)
That is the exact right strategy, right? Yeah.

Van Asher (44:31.657)
roll with it. And, and, you know, if not, you know, I find I find harm reduction to be more

accepting and user-friendly for people. And we're talking about stigma earlier. Here's a perfect example. In the harm reduction field, we lose a lot of people who work in the field because of the stigma associated with substance use. So they don't often apply the same things where we'll say, hey, because there's an unstable drug supply, try not to use alone

Atika (44:47.012)
Yeah.

Van Asher (45:14.031)
But there's so much stigma. We just lost a dear friend who is a brilliant harm reductionist who had abstinent, a long period of abstinence based history, who had gone to a period of reuse, but wasn't talking to people about it because of the shame and judgment that people might put on them. And so they passed away. And a coworker of mine here similarly, where there are things I tell people like, hey,

Atika (45:31.566)
Mm-hmm.

Van Asher (45:43.671)
know, call me. Call me and I'll stay on the phone with you. I was a volunteer and I was on the board of directors for a time of call line called Never Use Alone where if you're using substances, yeah, you can you can call and someone will sit with you while you use whatever substance you're using to make sure there are positive outcomes. Yep.

Atika (45:54.659)
Oh yeah, I know that language, it's like Norse.

Chuck (45:55.266)
Yeah.

Lisa (46:06.706)
And Attica does that. I don't know if you're aware, Van, but Attica does that for an organization here. Yeah.

Chuck (46:11.594)
Yeah, Norris, yeah, who've, we've recently started kind of sponsored, not sponsoring, but yeah, right, yeah, yeah. Um, actually I got in shit on Twitter, um, because I didn't get in shit. Somebody asked me to specifically mention a program that's here in Alberta as well. The uh, doors, D-O-R-S, very similar, um, government run, government run. So which to me, if you're doing good things, you're doing good things. Most certainly. I...

Atika (46:13.156)
Yeah, the Canadian version of that.

Atika (46:21.56)
Why?

Lisa (46:28.731)
Oh, OK.

never heard of it. OK.

Chuck (46:39.862)
to me every dollar the government spends is a dollar ill spent, right? So if you like, I would much rather push, I really shouldn't even say this, but I'm gonna, cause it's my show. I would much rather push people to donate towards Norse, which is a nonprofit than any sort of government run, because that dollar you give to Norse is gonna go so much further than to anything run by the government, right? No, right? Yeah. Or that, or that.

Van Asher (46:57.517)
Mm-hmm.

Van Asher (47:01.747)
Oh yeah.

Atika (47:01.983)
RG initiative, we need a spectrometer.

Atika (47:09.486)
Um, yeah, never use alone and break up.

Chuck (47:09.886)
Right? So, yeah.

Lisa (47:12.47)
And Van, we talk a lot, yeah, we talk a lot too on the show about the fact that we need all the tools in the toolkit. Do you know what I mean? And so whether it's AA, whether it's abstinence based programs, whether it's harm reduction programs, whether it's clean injection, like whatever it is, it's like, I don't think there's one recipe.

Van Asher (47:22.909)
Oh, God, yeah. Exactly.

Lisa (47:37.622)
to success. And I mean, that's so clear, right? If there was a recipe to success, then we would have identified it and we would put everybody on that track and we would all be done. And so there's no one road. And it's just we need all the tools, you know?

Van Asher (47:38.253)
Mm-hmm.

Atika (47:47.235)
And so it's different.

Chuck (47:49.742)
true story.

Van Asher (47:50.102)
Oh yeah.

Chuck (47:54.486)
We really, really do, right?

Van Asher (47:54.889)
We, one of my training partners and I, we do a training on safer bathrooms because not every place is gonna have an overdose prevention site, nor is it appropriate to have one in some place that people aren't gonna come. It could be a tap on resources, but we all have bathrooms except for Chuck right now, who's using the one down the road. But, 10 more days, 10 more days.

Atika (48:00.155)
Oh, yeah.

Atika (48:15.939)
Duh!

You just have to do it. You just have to mention that. Ten more days.

Chuck (48:23.301)
10 more days. Yeah.

Van Asher (48:26.273)
But all programs have bathrooms. I remember I'd interviewed for positions somewhere where they're gonna start doing syringe exchange.

And they're like, how do we get people to not use in the bathroom? I went, oh, don't let them use the bathroom, but that's inhumane. I said, what I would do first looking at your bathroom is I'd turn the door so it opens out because most people die in the bathroom because the door swings in and they are trapped between the toilet and the door and we can't get to them. And they're like, oh my God, we wouldn't have thought of that. And it's like, well, you don't do this work. Of course you wouldn't have. Um, and.

Atika (48:37.423)
Oh, they will.

Atika (48:57.871)
That's why like my nonprofit tries to do like a biosensor because it's like everyone dies in the bathroom and there's a lot of things that people do in the bathroom and there needs to be harm reduction in the bathrooms, especially Bronx, you know, yeah.

Chuck (48:58.606)
Fair enough, right?

Van Asher (49:09.046)
Mm-hmm.

Van Asher (49:15.757)
And there were different programs I ran where we had safer youth bathrooms and the press wanted to know.

and I'm big on plausible deniability, I might be lying to you now, no, but where they'd go, well, what's going on in your bathroom? And I went, shit happens in the bathroom. Like, what's going on in your bathroom? Like, I mean, the amount of things that I've done non-drug related in bathrooms, I've had sex in bathrooms, I've changed clothes in bathrooms, I've made a mess in bathroom, you know, all different kinds of things, including drugs, you know.

Chuck (49:26.73)
hahahaha

Lisa (49:27.242)
Hehehe

Atika (49:52.143)
I think it also comes down to people's ignorance that injection is actually really an intimate experience. It's not like when people see drug users injecting on the street, there's a misconception that they just want to inject on the street. No, they don't. They don't enjoy that. It's just because it's safe for them that...

Van Asher (49:52.695)
so.

Chuck (49:54.676)
funny.

Chuck (50:15.024)
Yeah, I can assure you nobody wants to do that, right? Yes, yeah.

Van Asher (50:16.141)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Atika (50:20.575)
in case they have a poisoning someone will save them and they do use in the bathroom because it's you know like finding a vein and you know it's just really intimate you know activity for yeah access to water so

Van Asher (50:25.782)
Mm-hmm.

Van Asher (50:33.541)
access to water. And one thing we're talking about stigma so much, I just wanna talk about the stigma of the syringe. Like we've been taught that the syringe is a problem where it's just a route of administration. And I bring up the example of if like...

Lisa (50:48.607)
Hmm.

Van Asher (50:51.593)
The majority of us have been to a dentist in the last 10 years. And of that majority, a large percentage of us have had a cavity. So we've gotten a shot of Novocaine. And after leaving the doctor's office, like we didn't have Novocaine seeking behavior. It didn't turn us into this drug seeking fiend, but we just admit and acknowledged that we've had a history, it should be in the chart like you were talking about

Atika (51:19.595)
Yeah. Yeah!

Van Asher (51:23.348)
use. So route of administration does not determine outcome. What we've been taught is stigma.

And all the drug users you see in the news are people that are like either in a violent scenario or being arrested or there was something criminal attached. So we can keep pushing that agenda of the criminality of someone who's doing something illegal. So they become this immoral. And the majority of people who use substances we don't think of because they're living their lives and doing their everyday things regardless of their route of administration.

Chuck (51:31.053)
Yeah.

Lisa (51:31.542)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (51:56.054)
Mm-hmm.

Atika (51:58.403)
Yeah.

Lisa (51:59.926)
Yeah.

Van Asher (52:00.399)
Thanks for watching!

Chuck (52:01.125)
Right? Oh my.

Lisa (52:02.882)
It's interesting because I always ask patients in the hospital about IV drug use. And just like this conversation is making me rethink how I do it, because the reason I do it is to know, should we be testing for things like HIV? You know, so I'll ask about, you know, do you do IV drugs? Do you, and I also ask about sex. Do you practice safe sex? But I wonder now if asking that question to somebody who probably is

riddled with shame if the perception of that question just encourages the shame. When again, like I don't really care how you're using, I just need to know so that I can investigate for anything we might need to tend to or treat. Yeah.

Van Asher (52:43.411)
Mm-hmm.

Van Asher (52:49.037)
for risk, yeah.

Yeah, and I mean, it's a lot of times like when I test people for hep C or HIV, we ask the most invasive questions of someone we've just met like, hi, do you have sex with men who have sex with men, people who inject substances, people involved in sex work, as if it's any of my fucking business, I understand, because it's not, I mean, I remember I got tested once and someone asked me the amount of partners I had and it had been hundreds. But at that time, I was using protection for every penetrative act.

Chuck (52:50.926)
So...

Van Asher (53:20.673)
And, you know, there was someone I was going to sleep with and I said, well, how many partners have you had? And they said, well, if I sleep with you, you'll be the fifth. And I said, well, did you use protection with them? And she went, no, I knew them. And I said, you're the risk. I'm regarded as the whore from a societal point of view, but my acts were lesser risk than yours. And, and, uh...

Chuck (53:42.55)
Absolutely.

Lisa (53:43.994)
interesting to ask a number of partners because again that's irrelevant. It's do you practice safe sex? Period. Like I...

Van Asher (53:47.894)
Yep.

Atika (53:48.063)
Yeah, period.

Chuck (53:50.491)
100%. 100% that is, yeah.

Van Asher (53:51.433)
And because the city department of health would talk about lessening risk by lowering amount of partners. And I'd say, no, that's you trying to push puritanical values that are non-reflective of today's realities. Get your fucking morals out of my bedroom. I actually don't want any morals in my bedroom. On a good day. Like let's keep shame in the bedroom where it belongs. Remove it from all other areas.

Atika (54:08.375)
It doesn't belong there!

Chuck (54:10.844)
Hahahaha

Van Asher (54:20.393)
But the thing is, it's not how many partners I have, but how I'm having them, that brings about the risk.

Chuck (54:27.271)
out. Yeah.

Van Asher (54:27.677)
You know, I have a friend who is a devout Christian, who had unprotected sex with this, like one lovely young man, because they thought they were in love, and as we often do when our endorphins are telling us to do things. And she got infected. She is not the picture of who you would think an HIV positive person is. And it's a stigma of...

Lisa (54:51.638)
Mm-hmm. But it's like you said earlier, Van, about there are people who are drug users who are PhDs. There are people who are devout Christians. Like, it's just kind of people, nobody is immune to any of this stuff. You know?

Van Asher (55:00.477)
Oh, God, yes. I have many friends that are.

Atika (55:00.853)
Yeah. There are.

Van Asher (55:07.761)
Recently, Dr. Carl Hart wrote a book, Drug User for Grownups. He is a PhD, a Columbia professor, who's tenured, who's a black man, who's raising children. He has tons of things to lose, who talks about the fact in his book, he does heroin recreationally, and many other people do.

Chuck (55:27.138)
Holy...

Van Asher (55:30.581)
He does lots of substances recreationally. I have so many friends that are brilliant human beings at the height of their respected fields that are substance users. And I'm talking like heavy substance users. And many of them are closeted because of the stigma. And there are some that are incredibly brave that talk out about it. I was just at a methadone reform conference in New York

Atika (55:43.438)
Yes.

Van Asher (56:00.935)
one of them, Dr. David Frank had spoken about being an active drug user. Yeah.

Atika (56:04.027)
I was gonna mention him. Oh yeah he's proud he's unapologetic he's like this is my methadone I'm going to swallow it and he doesn't really get any grants

Van Asher (56:12.293)
Oh, he's awesome. And, you know, my partner had written an abstract and made a poster about why illicitly sourced diverted methadone is a safer choice for them as someone...

of a gender that had been sexually harassed by people in their clinic that worked there, or would be told, oh, you know, your clothes are distracting these men, you can't wear those shorts here anymore. Well, why don't you talk to the men about fucking sexually harassment, like harassing this person? Our counselor would say over and over, your husband doesn't really love you if he allows you to engage in sex work.

Atika (56:46.691)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (56:48.274)
Yeah. Right.

Lisa (56:49.486)
Exactly.

Van Asher (56:59.447)
Who the fuck, like it's work. Who the fuck are you? You know, but like when people of power that don't necessarily have any training in specific things start talking publicly about these specific things with authority, like we run into problems. So like it's brave people like Dr. Carl Hart and Dr. David Frank, who, and it's interesting because he was on a panel with everyone

Atika (57:01.342)
It's just work.

Lisa (57:04.67)
Yeah.

Lisa (57:18.131)
Mm-hmm.

Atika (57:23.856)
I like him. He's great.

Van Asher (57:29.387)
like, doctor, David, and he was like, I'm a doctor. Like, let's back this shit up. Don't forget that. Yeah.

Lisa (57:36.182)
Yeah, yeah, right.

Atika (57:38.543)
But it's also about the stigma that you're talking about how scholars who are, you know, just closeted about their using versus doctors like Dr. Frank, who I had meetings with him and he's great. He's very intelligent and everything. But he just really suffered getting grants because of that, because he is open about it. He's honest about it. Like, yeah, I used to use heroin. I'm on methadone.

Chuck (57:40.076)
Wow.

Van Asher (57:55.295)
Oh yeah.

Van Asher (58:02.31)
Uh-huh. Mm-hmm.

Yep. People don't want to give drug users money because they might do something nefarious with it. You know, the amount of people that embezzle that aren't using substances. Yeah, I was at a training where people were talking about theft.

Atika (58:09.067)
Yeah.

Chuck (58:11.764)
Yep.

Atika (58:14.987)
And this is like Ivy League institution. Yeah.

Van Asher (58:27.177)
And I said, well, I have a question for everyone in the training. And I wasn't, I wasn't doing the training as a, as a member. I said, how many of you have a bunch of like pens and, and notebooks and stuff at home from your job, from your workplace? And most people raise their hands and went, okay, so you're, I'm talking to a bunch of thieves.

Atika (58:46.435)
Yeah.

Van Asher (58:47.741)
And they're like, no, it's different. I went, how? Because you're classist. There's no difference. You are taking things home. Like one of you said, will I take reams of paper home for my printer? You're committing theft. And if you add that up over a year with everyone at the agency, it becomes a significant amount. But if you're like, oh, that person's gonna steal something because they're a drug user, like look at your own behavior.

Lisa (58:54.632)
Yeah.

Chuck (59:06.396)
straight. Yeah.

Atika (59:12.3)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (59:13.466)
Yeah, yeah, right. You had started to say how many crimes are committed, right? How much embezzlement? The big crimes? Those guys aren't using heroin or cocaine? No, right? Those, no, right? Yeah, yeah, most certainly.

Atika (59:22.255)
Oh no. Yeah.

Lisa (59:31.272)
Van, what are you specifically doing in Chicago now?

Van Asher (59:34.801)
Oh, wow. I'm working with a bunch of different orgs. I was working with a rural syringe service program in LaSalle County where three years ago they were ranked number eight for overdoses. Two years ago it was number five. And the first quarter of this year there were no overdose fatalities. So I was helping them expand their syringe service program. I did some trainings

Chuck (59:56.02)
Amen.

Van Asher (01:00:05.216)
and fire about

about working with drug users. And it was great because they just finished a suicidality training. And I said, I'm so glad you talked about this because the number one killer of first responders is themselves. And I said, you know, I'm NYC EMT 377884, and my first patient died en route to the hospital. And I spiraled into a depression. So I'm glad you're talking about this. But also, if we look at when you're talking about patient care and you're talking

Chuck (01:00:24.482)
Oh.

Van Asher (01:00:40.079)
infarction, which is a heart attack, you had a list of how to treat the patient. Let's cross those words out and just replace it with overdose. And let's bring care back in health care when we're working with people who use substances. And so we set up with them a leave behind program where if someone's experienced an overdose, they're going to be offered naloxone as well as the people who they were with. So because most overdoses, we don't need 911. They can be treated by each other and it's often in a much more loving way.

Atika (01:01:05.131)
No. Yeah.

Chuck (01:01:08.551)
straight.

Atika (01:01:09.227)
Yeah, less invasive.

Van Asher (01:01:09.999)
Okay.

Chuck (01:01:10.998)
Right?

Van Asher (01:01:11.653)
And I said, you can go back to doing, so that's one of the things I've worked with. A friend of mine was one of the founders who passed away from an accidental overdose of Chicago Recovery Alliance, which is a large SSP here, where I knew several of the people that work there. So I started volunteering, and I'm doing some work there with them as well. And I work with the Puerto Rico Project. I've written some grants. I wrote the grant so they could get their mobile shower unit. I wrote a grant so they could have like a finance person.

just submitted some grants for expansion of services. One of the things, the Overdose Prevention Services Act bill is coming up in front of the Senate again. I make a lot of harm reduction animated videos. So I made one using, if you've seen Schoolhouse Rock, the I'm just a bill. I made one in that genre. So it's like, I'm just a bill, suck on Capitol Hill. Overdose prevention sites,

kill, something like that. Yeah, it's a little different. It's a little different. I made a harm reduction comic book.

Chuck (01:02:11.508)
I was when I was looking at your profile this morning. I said, oh, I've seen that old cartoon. Maybe not Okay, I'm gonna have to take another look at that. Yeah. Yeah, okay

Lisa (01:02:15.734)
Mm-hmm.

Van Asher (01:02:22.129)
called the Young Injectables, which was also translated into Italian. So I'm trying to bring money into harm reduction in here. Yeah, and I also made a video with them because we're talking about meth a lot. There's not a lot of great harm reduction stuff about meth. And so I had the Young Injectables meet the Overdose Avengers in Meth After Dark, where they have an all out meth party where they're smoking it, they're booty bumping it, they're shooting it.

Lisa (01:02:23.446)
Bye.

Chuck (01:02:29.986)
The injectables.

Atika (01:02:50.799)
moving.

Chuck (01:02:51.406)
Haha, fuck sex.

Van Asher (01:02:52.643)
There are these two young men, yeah, there are these two young men. One says like when they're talking about boofing he's like, God you have so much knowledge. He's like, you know, hey do you have a condom? And he's like, oh I don't but I'm an undetectable bottom. And he's like, oh I'm a top on prep. Do you still have that lube? And then they disappear together. Just to break down stigma. I know I would fight with the Department of Health in New York City all the time.

Chuck (01:03:19.519)
Jesus. Lisa's gonna be coming with me to Thailand.

Atika (01:03:20.847)
Hehehehe

Lisa (01:03:21.843)
Yeah

Van Asher (01:03:24.722)
In New York, they would say, take PrEP daily and use a condom. And it's like, if I'm trying to prevent HIV infection and I take PrEP daily, I'm going to avoid HIV. If I'm trying to avoid getting someone pregnant, which I won't because I've had a vasectomy because I've done my part.

Atika (01:03:35.598)
Yeah.

Van Asher (01:03:43.989)
or like an STI, yeah condoms are great to prevent that. But if I'm just trying to prevent, there was this big backlash from the gay community in New York where we actually saw an increase in HIV during the height of the epidemic where the CDC came out and said, you need to wear a condom for every sexual act. And that's where we got the term barebacking. That's where that came into play. One of my old bosses who's a dear friend who,

Um, God, I just forgot the name of his magazine. I wanted to plug it. It's a gay S and M bondage magazine that I did a photo shoot in as well. Um, he said, you know, they told me.

Atika (01:04:22.511)
I'm sorry.

Chuck (01:04:22.846)
Of course you did. What the fuck, man? Jesus Christ. Right? Fuck.

Lisa (01:04:23.782)
I'm like... I love this guy. I just...

Van Asher (01:04:28.001)
They tell me, I'm gonna look it up, because I'm gonna give him, his name is Drew Kramer, he's brilliant. But he said, you know, as a gay man who's in my late 50s, they want me to take PrEP daily to avoid HIV. But if I get HIV, I'm just gonna take a pill daily. So why, why? And people are like, oh, you can't say that. And it's like, why can't I speak my fucking truth? Like, and drum roll, please.

Lisa (01:04:44.822)
Yep. Yeah.

Chuck (01:04:45.866)
What's yeah.

Lisa (01:04:56.594)
no check that we've had another guest on who has brought up as many mixed emotions for me. Like, my brain has been like in the gutter, it's been in like the floral fields, I've had tears, I've laughed. I'm like...

Chuck (01:04:56.982)
Oh.

We have not.

Atika (01:05:00.869)
Yeah!

Chuck (01:05:02.67)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Van Asher (01:05:03.127)
Hahaha!

Van Asher (01:05:10.026)
My work here is done.

Chuck (01:05:12.599)
I'm sorry.

Why don't you hold that name for a quick second? I'm just gonna run a quick PSA here and then we'll come back to that, okay? Yeah, okay, perfect.

Van Asher (01:05:19.201)
Sure.

Chuck (01:05:28.411)
Back to the beginning.

Van Asher (01:06:20.113)
And I love that, but I wish we'd change the narrative. I hear it everywhere that this is someone's sister or mother or brother or son. This is someone, let's just draw the line there. This is a person, period. They don't have to be a son or a brother. They're them and they're valuable. I know the big thing that I hate, another thing I fought with about the narrative is in New York,

Atika (01:06:32.21)
and

Chuck (01:06:32.798)
Fair enough.

Chuck (01:06:46.466)
you do it clothed? Did you fight clothed this time?

Van Asher (01:06:51.108)
scantily. And my friend, my best friend Jimmy said when he met me, I was the most naked person he'd ever met wearing clothes. But, uh.

Chuck (01:07:05.472)
I got to get him on with Scott is what I got to do. Cause basically I could just, I could just, whatever. I'll shut my mic off and let you two go. Right? Yeah. Right. This is great. Continue.

Van Asher (01:07:13.057)
But, and it was, it was Drummer Magazine, which was the S&M Leather Magazine.

Chuck (01:07:16.218)
Oh, okay. Okay, drummer magazine. Okay.

Okay, so that PSA was brought to you by Drummer Magazine. There we go, right? And their website is? Van?

Van Asher (01:07:24.765)
Yes. You know what? I think you can find them on Instagram and you'll get their website. Let me just, yeah.

Lisa (01:07:24.854)
Hey.

Chuck (01:07:31.454)
Okay, okay. Under drummer magazine, which I would expect to find gay S&M magazine under that title. Okay, not.

Van Asher (01:07:38.994)
Exactly. What was because people marched to their own drum initially back then.

Chuck (01:07:44.366)
Touche. Right. Yes.

Van Asher (01:07:48.266)
Um...

Chuck (01:07:50.358)
I love this guy. You get a raise, Attica, you get a raise for bringing him on, there you go, right? Twice, gonna double your salary, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Two times zero is still zero, I'm just saying. Yes. Ha ha ha.

Van Asher (01:07:51.315)
and yeah.

Atika (01:07:52.194)
Should be a co-host.

Atika (01:07:58.031)
I'm sorry.

Van Asher (01:07:58.135)
Ha ha!

Lisa (01:08:05.318)
Yeah, I was gonna say it, but I was like, nah, what's it?

Van Asher (01:08:06.97)
Excellent.

Chuck (01:08:14.766)
There'll be a day when we could pay salaries someday down the road, right? You know, Carl says the same thing. Carl said it, same thing. He would never, he would never, right?

Atika (01:08:17.375)
Yeah. No, I don't need it.

Van Asher (01:08:18.535)
Oh, it'd be beautiful.

Lisa (01:08:18.59)
I would never take one.

Atika (01:08:22.795)
Yeah, no, I don't need it.

Lisa (01:08:23.966)
No.

Van Asher (01:08:25.861)
And it's funny because my first salary, you know, when I first got paid as an outreach worker, I was making $23,000 a year and I felt like I was stealing. I really did. Every other week I'd get a check for like $600 if that. And I was just like, you know.

Chuck (01:08:37.898)
Wow. Right.

Chuck (01:08:45.09)
But you see, and we need to pay some people because you're putting in 40 hours a week, you still have to survive, right? So, you know, and I've often said, if I take in a certain amount from sponsors in a month, it's not very much, but it's something, and it sure does help. I've often said that if the show gets to a certain level, there'll be a massive portion of that money that would go to some sort of non-profit or whatever.

Van Asher (01:08:49.017)
Oh yeah. Oh yeah, yeah.

Chuck (01:09:09.942)
Right, you know, but we still have to, like I work 16 hours a day, seven days a week, we still have to, you know, somehow get to live, right? You know?

Van Asher (01:09:10.47)
Oh yeah, yeah.

Lisa (01:09:16.629)
I think for me it comes down to necessity, right? So it's like, this is what you do check. So you absolutely need to pay yourself. You know what I mean? Like you need to eat, you need a roof. I have a job that pays me, that gives me all the things I need and more. So I would, for me, no matter where this show lands, I would never take money from the show because I don't need it. You know what I mean? So it's, yeah.

Chuck (01:09:40.214)
Yeah, right, we're grateful for that. Yeah, yeah.

Van Asher (01:09:40.237)
Mm-hmm.

Atika (01:09:40.707)
Yeah. I think I really take harm reduction very seriously that I just don't need it. You know, a lot of what we do, like me and Van, it's like unpaid. That's harm reduction. You just, you're in it. It's not for the pay. You're in it because you, you value people and you just want them to live.

Van Asher (01:09:44.609)
Get that in writing, Chuck.

Chuck (01:09:48.586)
Yeah, right.

Van Asher (01:09:57.281)
Oh yeah.

Chuck (01:10:00.106)
No, no, no.

Van Asher (01:10:00.454)
And...

Van Asher (01:10:05.073)
And there are places where I do get paid and I command a good price because I'm bringing years of expertise. And you know, I was talking to someone the other day about...

you know, people in the field where harm reduction is getting professionalized. And I told them like, when I'm hiring someone, the only letters I care about at the end of your name, as if it's like senior, junior, the second or third. Like I care about how you work with people. Um, and, and I'm one of the people and a lot of, a lot of people don't, but I'm one of the people who hires people in active use, um, where live experience,

Chuck (01:10:30.582)
Yeah.

Van Asher (01:10:47.183)
When I was homeless in New York City, one of the things I would do was, I'd compulsively go up and down like first and second half, checking pay phones for change or drugs. A lot of people that I serve now are like, what is this thing you speak of old man, pay phone? What is that? You know, so while my, exact, oh God, yeah, yeah. And I had slugs too for the subway. Exactly.

Chuck (01:11:07.037)
You used a safety pin at some point too, didn't you? Or the paperclip? Did you do the thing to make the free phone calls? Attica, you have no idea what we're talking about, do you?

Van Asher (01:11:17.029)
But the thing is, while my experience is still relevant because it is mine, it's no longer the same as someone who's like, oh, I'm going through that right now. Look, I don't have abscesses, I inject cocaine. This is how you can inject safer. And so I've always said I hire people based on the content of their quality rather than the content of their urine. Urines, you know.

Atika (01:11:28.12)
you

Atika (01:11:32.429)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (01:11:34.081)
Yeah.

Atika (01:11:42.447)
Yeah, it's like a life competence. It's not really about the resume. It's because of the competence, right? Like, like how competent are you relating with people who use drugs and, and suggesting, okay, flagging technique, how do you do that? Where vein to inject, you know, how to not do jugular injection, things like that. It's just, you know, like, like you said, the experts of harm reduction are actually people who use drugs themselves.

Chuck (01:11:43.818)
Well said. Well said.

Atika (01:12:12.207)
Pierce, right? Yeah.

Van Asher (01:12:13.165)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And when we talk about people getting separated, I don't know if I want to necessarily go into this. There was a program that I had run at one point, and when I left, I felt I'd set up an infrastructure that would have continued success. And this is something that's very common that happens. There's a lot of peer recovery specialists. And

you know, one of them said, I don't feel comfortable working around this person because they use and so the person was fired. And it was like, no, that like if I were still running the program, I would have said to the peer recovery specialist, well, if you're not comfortable about around a staff person that uses substances, will you be comfortable in the street feeling not triggered when people are actively injecting in front of you? And this might not be the right type of peer

for you to be doing at this point of your career, you know, let's have a conversation about that. But anyway, like what we talked about where recovery is connection, all of a sudden this person was fired and they lost all their support and they lost their income and became unhoused and they'd found another position and, you know, had put me as a reference and I was talking to them on Monday and they were going to start the job on Tuesday or they were going to start the

Chuck (01:13:12.92)
Hmm.

Chuck (01:13:36.182)
Oh no.

Van Asher (01:13:39.471)
and they were found dead on Tuesday. And this was a young, beautiful human being in their 20s. And a large part of it, I think, and I'm placing blame, is because their support got ripped away. And it's like, we need to hold people close because we all go through shit. Like I love the...

Lisa (01:13:57.622)
Mm-hmm.

Atika (01:14:03.961)
Okay.

Van Asher (01:14:05.757)
You know, be nice to everyone because you never know what someone is going through. And it could be, it doesn't have to be regarding substances. It could be relationship. It could be whatever the fuck, you know.

Chuck (01:14:12.687)
this again.

Chuck (01:14:17.142)
Last weekend our entire episode was, you don't know what somebody else is going through. That was our entire, that was what it was all about, right? You know. You gotta wonder man, cause like, holy shit, right? You just keep touching on these things, right? You know. Yeah. You don't seem like a note taker, that's Lisa. Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, right.

Van Asher (01:14:22.789)
Actually, I watched all of them, so I'm just pulling snippets to make it sound like I'm this well-rounded person. Okay, let me, I'm gonna check this one off and... Oh, I am. Not, not in this scenario. I live by checklists.

Atika (01:14:26.211)
Ha ha!

Lisa (01:14:27.502)
That's kinda...

Lisa (01:14:34.191)
Yeah.

Atika (01:14:36.931)
Hehehehe

Lisa (01:14:40.982)
That's it.

Chuck (01:14:43.462)
Oh yeah, yeah. People get on me, well, just make a list. Okay, because I can find a fucking pen. Okay, ADHD, that's, you know what I mean? It's, yeah.

Van Asher (01:14:51.621)
Oh, I understand. I joke where if I had a tagline, it was like, don't worry, I'll save. Oh, look, a kitten.

Atika (01:14:57.559)
Ehehehe

Chuck (01:14:57.826)
Yeah, right, right. Yeah, yeah.

Lisa (01:14:57.995)
Alright.

Van Asher (01:15:00.769)
And, and, but, but my broken brain, as you will, helps me put together, and I think a lot of people with ADHD, helps me see things and put together patterns that other people just won't connect. There are...

Chuck (01:15:15.265)
Without a doubt. Yep.

Van Asher (01:15:16.689)
Yeah, there was this terrible, and that's how I came up with the idea for fentanyl test strips here. And then I found out actually, Insight had done a study, a pilot study with 700 strips. And I always acknowledge that because I think credit needs to go where, or give credit where credits do. I had an original thought, but, you know, in my head where, you know, like I said, I'm an epileptic. So I started doing a keto based diet at my neurologist suggestion. So I could have my medication.

Chuck (01:15:21.804)
Ah, thank you.

Chuck (01:15:39.187)
To you, it was original. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

Van Asher (01:15:46.963)
to mitigate side effects because keto, it was made for epileptics. You know, the high fat lessens your risk of seizures. And so I was using keto test strips initially that I was peeing on to see if I was in ketosis till I figured out how my body reacted to certain foods. And this was in 2016, I went, well, you know, what are my liver and kidneys but a filter? And what's a cotton in a cooker but a filter? I'm sure there have to be urine, like fentanyl test strips.

And so I Googled them and found like really, really cheap ones that I was like, oh, these can't work. And then I found a company, BTNX, that had them. And they're mostly being used for like corrections or detox or rehab, like in a punitive way. And I called them and said, I want to order these in the right code. You need the regents to go with them. And I said, oh, no, I'm going to be testing drugs and like cookers and paraphernalia. And they were so freaked out by that.

Atika (01:16:41.132)
me.

Lisa (01:16:44.82)
Hahaha!

Van Asher (01:16:46.843)
And now they have a whole harm reduction division because they realize, and it's partially because they're Canadian. I made a video on how to use their test strips.

Chuck (01:16:51.415)
Wow.

Chuck (01:16:57.718)
Partially because they're Canadian or it's... Okay.

Van Asher (01:16:59.453)
Yep. Well, because they're Canadian, they're not as driven by dollars as Americans, and they're driven by concerns. So I made this video on how to use them, and they said, oh, could we use that for our website, eh? Because you say at the end of the sentence, and from Brooklyn, and from Brooklyn, we put it at the beginning. So it's like, eh, you want to use this video? And they're like, yeah, we'd like to use that video, eh? But they

Chuck (01:17:06.303)
story.

Chuck (01:17:16.758)
We do fucking not.

Lisa (01:17:18.234)
Hahaha! I know!

Chuck (01:17:24.214)
Ha ha!

Chuck (01:17:27.692)
Yeah. Ha ha ha.

Van Asher (01:17:29.347)
if they could use my video on how to use their test strips. And I said, sure. And they said, oh, we could pay you. And I said, no, I don't want any money. Give free test strips or discounted test strips to drug users unions. I've got a job. I'm fine, much like Lisa said. I don't need your money. I have money. I had much more then than I do as a freelancer. But.

Chuck (01:17:48.45)
Yep. Ha ha.

Van Asher (01:17:54.377)
But so they did, like they said, oh, we'll come to this conference. Can you introduce us to people in drug users unions? So I said, yeah, this is so and so from USU, the Urban Survivor Union, which is a national drug users union in the US, introduce them and just, like all these small actions, I say this a lot. Dan Big was the person who passed away, who was one of the co-founders of Chicago Recovery Alliance, who was a drug user.

In 2017, he was Chicagoian of the year. In 2018, he had an accidental fatal overdose and that same magazine that named him this published his toxicology report because we're taught to hate people who use drugs. But he is the person that made naloxone in the US so available because he started giving it out illegally and would go to conferences and show up with duffel bags of naloxone and be like, anyone want to learn how to start a program in your state?

you know, we need to put this in the hands of people who use drugs. And, you know, so what I said about him, tens of thousands, like it's impossible, it's impossible, it's impossible to figure out. Yeah, me speak good English, but it's, yeah.

Chuck (01:18:55.416)
Wow.

Chuck (01:19:04.182)
How many lives? Right?

I just, I... There's the American Indian, no, I'm just kidding, I'm just kidding. All right. I just try to wrap my head around that number. On, yeah.

Van Asher (01:19:20.678)
and he was the person who threw the pebble in the puddle that caused the ripple of change.

Chuck (01:19:26.922)
Right? Right. Yeah.

Van Asher (01:19:27.653)
So when we talk about like, you know, just being like your daughter, Lisa, saying like, why don't people see them? Why are people like treating them invisible? By making someone visible, we create the ripple of change. Because everyone they bump into that day, they're going to just react a little differently too. And I'm not some patchouli wearing hippie fuck by any stretch of

Lisa (01:19:42.026)
Mm-hmm.

Van Asher (01:19:58.03)
who

get treated the worst societally, you know, we can make change. I know there was a community board meeting in one of the areas where I had a needle exchange and community members were like, what are you gonna do about these homeless people in the park? And I was like, ask them what services they need. I said, you know, you're gonna be judged as a community by how you serve the person who needs the most resources. And if you're like, get this person out, that's a community member,

Chuck (01:20:23.877)
out.

Lisa (01:20:28.47)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (01:20:28.638)
Yeah, damn straight it is. And everybody, the four tenets, everybody deserves to be seen, to be heard, to be loved, and to feel lovable, right? You know, that's, yeah, you know. More and more every day I think about that, and you know. Yeah.

Van Asher (01:20:29.791)
like, you know, oh I don't want to see this.

Van Asher (01:20:39.251)
Exactly.

Atika (01:20:40.527)
Actually Chuck, this happened, but I spotted someone because he's far from the safe consumption site. And the reason why some people use in the public place is because there's not enough safe consumption site. Well, we need more of the safe consumption sites. And I was supervising, spotting this dope sitting basically, right? Dope sitting behind the bushes at McDonald's. And

Van Asher (01:20:58.378)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (01:21:08.974)
Yeah.

Atika (01:21:09.335)
He did fend, there was a trank. He had a drug poisoning, I narked at him. And I remember of your podcast that when I left that guy, I told him you're loved. You know, that's what I told him when, yeah. That's what I told him as he opened his eyes. Because, you know, like Van Chalk and Visa, you probably know that people who use drugs, they don't feel loved. They just...

Lisa (01:21:27.581)
Mm-mm.

Chuck (01:21:28.43)
Aww. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right. Hmm.

Van Asher (01:21:34.912)
Mm-hmm.

Atika (01:21:38.995)
you know, and sometimes it's just nice to be reminded that, hey, someone care about you, someone give a crap about you.

Van Asher (01:21:42.315)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (01:21:43.252)
often.

Chuck (01:21:47.146)
And the fourth tenet, the fourth tenet is the hardest of them, I think, for people who are suffering, is to feel lovable. That's harder to do than to feel loved, right? And for so many people, and it was for me, it was a boot on my neck for years, right?

Van Asher (01:21:49.131)
Yeah.

Lisa (01:21:51.958)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Lisa (01:21:57.535)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (01:22:01.982)
I think if you asked my brother, I think he would say the same. He knew he was loved. He knows he's loved. But I don't, I don't think he, I think there's been a lot of times where he has not felt that he was deserving of being loved.

Chuck (01:22:05.15)
I'm almost, almost everybody that's been through it will tell you the same.

Van Asher (01:22:14.913)
Right. And I've interrupted so many potential overdoses or drug poisonings, and I'm saying interrupted, I don't like the word reversal because the drugs aren't pushed out of your system. They're blocked. They're blocked for 30 to 90 minutes.

Chuck (01:22:15.338)
without a doubt.

Atika (01:22:22.127)
That's true. They're blocked for 30 minutes, and then it comes back, and then, yeah.

Chuck (01:22:28.705)
Yeah.

Van Asher (01:22:30.953)
Yep, 30 to 90 minutes. And then, yeah, depending on how much of a substance was in your body, your overdose can continue, which is important if you're not gonna call for help to sit with someone, but so many times people will come out and they'll go, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And I'd go, you didn't do anything wrong. You have nothing to be sorry about.

Chuck (01:22:31.232)
Yeah.

Atika (01:22:32.791)
Yeah, the overdose again. Yeah, it did happen, yeah.

Atika (01:22:43.967)
Yeah. It happened to me all the time.

Chuck (01:22:51.222)
Right, and that, I've spoken to this before too, Van. I've nowhere near the count, yourself or Attica would have been interrupted, we'll use that term. But my fair share, I guess, right? Because I was never an opiate user, you know, quite often I was never around that until the end when fentanyl just came on the scene and just overtook everything. But anyway, not a single person that I was either involved in or was the actual person doing the interrupting came out of that and said, thank you.

And it's not, and I don't say that because I need to be thanked. I do not in any way, shape or form, much like Lisa said earlier at work. But the fact that they are sorry that they made you do that instead of being thankful to be alive is a fucking problem. Right? Like, like.

Atika (01:23:29.787)
Okay.

Van Asher (01:23:32.354)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (01:23:34.198)
Do you remember Chuck, that thing that Devin read to you that I had sent him about this? Always makes me think about that, right? This was, I had shared with an interventionist who'd helped my brother about how he had sent a message saying he was sorry for all the stress that he had caused our family. And I was...

Van Asher (01:23:35.228)
and

Chuck (01:23:38.782)
Yes, yes. Right, yeah, right.

Lisa (01:24:01.494)
talking to the interventionist and basically saying like, I'm sorry. Like, I'm sorry you have suffered. I'm sorry that we don't have easy answers. I'm sorry that society doesn't give you what you need and help you. You know, it's like, I feel like so often people who are suffering in addiction are saying, sorry. And I think as society,

Van Asher (01:24:10.882)
Mm-hmm.

Atika (01:24:23.588)
Yes.

Van Asher (01:24:28.083)
Mm-hmm.

Atika (01:24:29.035)
We have more topologists for them than us. Yes, internalized.

Lisa (01:24:30.226)
we have a lot more to apologize for.

Van Asher (01:24:33.173)
And they're saying, sorry, because we've stigmatized them at such a rate that it's you're taught that what you're doing is bad. Once again, confusing legality and morality. Like, oh, you're doing X, Y, or Z? You're a bad person. No, I'm not. I might do some bad things. Other people do bad things as well, and you hold them to a different standard.

Chuck (01:24:33.575)
straight.

Yep.

Atika (01:24:41.006)
Yeah.

Atika (01:24:46.56)
No.

Atika (01:24:52.919)
Yeah, it's like they get a badge and it's a new from a new dealer or just that out of prison. So it's a different badge and they would apologize if I if I reverse, sorry, if I interrupt the poisoning and it's like, it's not your fault that you had a poisoning. You didn't know. You didn't even know what's in it. Right. So it's like they it's like internalized guilt that seemed to be there.

Chuck (01:24:57.015)
Yeah. Yup.

Van Asher (01:25:16.704)
Right.

Chuck (01:25:21.394)
Ah.

Atika (01:25:22.165)
Oh Chuck.

Chuck (01:25:25.89)
Hmm. Ha ha ha. Lisa did it. I'm not crying, you're crying. Ha ha ha.

Atika (01:25:28.207)
I never cried yet.

Van Asher (01:25:32.161)
Hahaha

Chuck (01:25:35.95)
It's not an episode, right? You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just, yeah. Just, I empathize a lot, right? So, hypersensitive guy, all that jazz, but yeah. Yeah.

Van Asher (01:25:45.589)
No, no, I understand. And people don't expect it from me because I'm like this big burly guy and I'm like, I'll cry when I fucking want to. If you don't like it, I'll stab you. But.

Chuck (01:25:51.218)
Yeah, I understand. Right? Jesus Christ. You know what?

Atika (01:25:53.519)
Thank you.

You should be a co-host!

Van Asher (01:26:00.725)
But actually, and that's not fully true actually. For years, I didn't cry. I was the person who, like if you got a call after work, I was the angel of death. I was here telling you like so-and-so passed away. I got ordained in the early 90s because the amount of people we're losing to AIDS. And I had these two mothers say like they were told by their priest or their reverend that their child was going to hell,

because they were an injector. And I was so distraught that I got ordained. So the next time that happened, I could say, well, you know what? I'm a person of the cloth, and I don't believe that. I believe they already lived through their personal hell, and they're no longer in it. And I'm a fallen Jew.

Chuck (01:26:44.49)
Wow, man, wow. A, who the, I don't give a shit what your position is in the world. To say that to somebody who's just lost their person, fuck you for that, right? It's like just no, right? And B, I wish I could hug you, man. I do, for doing that and for offering people that piece. Right, you know?

Atika (01:26:51.015)
Mm-hmm.

Van Asher (01:26:54.865)
Exactly, exactly.

Lisa (01:26:54.998)
Yeah.

Lisa (01:26:58.319)
No.

Van Asher (01:27:01.545)
Um, and I didn't cry for years because I was the one who had to hold everyone up. I had to support my staff because I hire people that, that actively use. There was one year I lost two staff members.

So it's like I just always had to be the strong one. And a little over a year ago, we lost one of my dearest friends who was a harm reductionist since the 80s. And it uncorked this dam of grief that I've been carrying for 30 years, where instead of like holding people up, I needed to kind of be an A-frame and lean on people. And I cried like five or six times a day, like over anything.

or nothing. And oh, it's, you know, I actually, I've gotten together with someone romantically around that time. And I said, you know, it might seem like I'm a bit of a mess right now. But their death helped me be a better version of myself.

Chuck (01:27:47.33)
How freeing was that for you, Van?

Chuck (01:28:07.914)
Yeah.

Van Asher (01:28:09.137)
So like I'm a better human being that I'm more in touch with this immense grief that I've been carrying. And in trainings I do, I say like, if you've been in this field since the AIDS epidemic was at the height, you probably have PTSD and you might not have treated it. And then with the drug poisoning epidemic and COVID on top, like I'm a shattered shell of the person I used to be.

that keeps me going is I get up and I try to go to work and remove some of the harms and the stigma and the shame and the pain to people that the rest of the world keeps it on. Because if I'm telling you how fucked up you are, I don't have to look at myself, you know? And everyone has shit. I don't care who you are.

Chuck (01:28:58.43)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow, wow.

Lisa (01:29:02.099)
Mm-hmm.

Van Asher (01:29:04.017)
So, so it's, to answer your question, it's, yeah, incredibly cathartic, and just like I'm getting introduced to myself as a new person, because, you know, I thought part of me was broken, maybe, and maybe a little sociopathical, but that gave me the ability to support people.

Chuck (01:29:12.672)
Yeah.

Van Asher (01:29:31.679)
who needed someone to lean on, and now I'm one of them.

Atika (01:29:35.055)
I have to see.

Chuck (01:29:36.135)
Here's another one Lisa, apathy, right? Right? Yeah. Yep.

Lisa (01:29:38.13)
Mm hmm. Yeah, so Ryan is a therapist who comes on Wednesdays and does kaleidoscope. And he has an expression that apathy is like a duvet. You know, so that we all people in this work will have periods where they, they feel apathetic, they look apathetic. But it's literally like

we all need those times to just take a break because just feeling the empathy all the time is exhausting. Right? And so you kind of pull it up like a duvet and it's a way that we can ultimately keep going. And I think it's very accurate.

Chuck (01:30:10.327)
straight.

Van Asher (01:30:17.993)
Yeah. And I talk about, I do a training about trauma-informed care for the person providing the work because we always talk about the person receiving services. But like where is harm reduction for the harm reductionist? And let's talk about like burn through instead of burnout. Like how are we gonna get through this? Like the man I was just talking about.

Atika (01:30:40.311)
through.

Lisa (01:30:41.463)
I love that burn through instead of burn out. Like, oh, that's good.

Chuck (01:30:43.566)
Is that a burn? Yeah.

Van Asher (01:30:46.461)
the man I was talking about who passed away a little over a year ago, for several years, myself, him, and another man who worked in this field, though like would do trainings together sometimes, but we worked at different programs in different states, would have a weekly phone call to just like exhale and talk about like our feelings. And I could tell you about a scenario. And while you may have had a similar one, you're separate because you don't know

players and we could emotionally support each other and talk about our feelings as men in this field and one was a black man. He still is actually. I spoke to him yesterday.

Chuck (01:31:26.67)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Van Asher (01:31:28.245)
But like, he's supposed to be very stoic and strong and just talking about his feelings of the vicarious trauma that you have to pick up working in this field and our grief that goes with it to allow us to heal enough. And like I said, like I'm very probably broken because the amount of shit that I see

Atika (01:31:43.663)
there's a lot of grief.

Van Asher (01:31:58.199)
but I'd be more so if I didn't continue. I know there was a time we were talking about disliking ourselves, like at periods of time in life. There was a time in my life I had this car, Mercury Monarch, which I repainted the back to say Vanarchy. I knocked some letters off. But I always had broken rear view mirrors because I had such self disdain that I'd be driving and I'd catch my reflection and be like, the fuck are you looking at? And punch out the mirror.

an open cut on this hand and I'd go into like the auto parts store like with the bloody hand and a mirror and they'd be like oh my god this sociopath again and I'd throw out my mirror and go grab the new one um and but doing this work allows me to be able to look in the mirror without disdain and with compassion um and care and I'm not too bad on the eyes either so you know there's that but

Atika (01:32:33.775)
Hahaha

Atika (01:32:44.76)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (01:32:56.08)
And he's modest too, Mom.

Van Asher (01:32:58.488)
Yeah, for an older guy. I told someone I was pretty fly for a fat guy.

Chuck (01:33:07.714)
we ought to talk about my face for radio. So I get you, I get you, right? Yeah, yeah. Hey, listen, we are at an hour and a half plus the first, I don't even know, we've got to be close to two hours now. So I think that's all the time we've got for today. I could sit here and talk to you for hours, Van. I really could. And I would expect another invite onto the show. Most definitely, most definitely. This is, wow, you're a fantastic guest. So.

Van Asher (01:33:24.503)
Yeah.

Van Asher (01:33:29.121)
face, yes.

Lisa (01:33:35.286)
Honestly, one of my favorites. Yeah.

Van Asher (01:33:35.794)
and put your emails in the chat. Thank you.

Chuck (01:33:38.098)
Yeah, yeah, right. I mean, they're all my favorite when you're sitting there and I'm talking to you, right? But you're definitely right up there, right? Yeah, so. Ha ha ha.

Lisa (01:33:44.781)
Now I'll be more explicit.

Van Asher (01:33:47.656)
and put your emails in the chats and I'll send you the pictures for the Hotties calendar. Yeah.

Atika (01:33:51.947)
You were trying to pimp me, Van. You were trying to pimp me.

Lisa (01:33:52.07)
the calendar. Okay, perfect. Then I don't have to try to find them online.

Chuck (01:33:53.33)
Yeah, yeah, okay, so I actually, I did message you on messenger.

Van Asher (01:33:59.885)
I told her she should join it.

Chuck (01:34:03.83)
Why not? Right? Yeah. Right? You know, I mean, no. Yeah.

Van Asher (01:34:05.745)
Yeah, it's only pimping if I'm receiving something in return.

Atika (01:34:07.149)
I'm sorry.

Atika (01:34:11.019)
marketing.

Lisa (01:34:11.95)
Hahaha, thank you!

Chuck (01:34:15.007)
Anyway, that escalated quickly. I did message you earlier there, Van, from my real name, which is Chris Horder. We don't hide it anymore. I used to when I started the show, we don't anymore, but Chocolate Flange has been created. So it must have gone to your spam or whatever, but if you can catch that and open it up, so I can, because I'll definitely be inviting. Oh, here it goes, yeah.

Van Asher (01:34:16.937)
Yes.

Van Asher (01:34:25.566)
Okay.

Van Asher (01:34:33.481)
And talking about de-escalation, I just received something from my partner, a message that said, my kink is listening to you talk harm reduction in Zoom interviews.

Atika (01:34:40.207)
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Chuck (01:34:43.182)
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Lisa (01:34:43.997)
Awwww, I love that!

Atika (01:34:44.527)
Reduction!

Lisa (01:34:49.002)
Well, you're with the right person then.

Van Asher (01:34:51.37)
Yeah.

Chuck (01:34:52.856)
No kidding, eh? I think it takes a special kind of person after this very short time I've known you, Van. So yeah, I mean, it'd have to be the right kind of person, right? You know?

Lisa (01:34:59.756)
Hahaha

Van Asher (01:35:01.399)
And Chris, where did you contact me? Was that email or? Okay, so I'll find it and I'll... Okay, okay, cool. Excellent.

Chuck (01:35:05.418)
I'm Facebook Messenger, yeah. Yeah, yeah, you accepted my friend request this morning already, so, yeah, yeah. So, all right, I was trying to make sure you got the link in case somebody slept in. This. I'm not pointing at your fingers, yeah, yeah. That's right, that's right. Hey.

Van Asher (01:35:19.742)
Hahaha

I know not what of you speak.

Atika (01:35:23.691)
Not me, I don't know how can anyone do that. I definitely don't know anyone's wrong. Good.

Chuck (01:35:31.486)
No, I don't know. I wasn't that long ago, I did my last one either. Ladies, before we jump into the next segment, which will be daily gratitude, so you don't do the thing again, Attica, is there anything you'd like to say to Van on the out go here? Lisa, if you wanna go first?

Lisa (01:35:46.802)
Like I said, honestly, this has been an absolute pleasure. I feel like we need you on for many, many episodes to hear all the.

Chuck (01:35:57.886)
I want to bring just the tips Thursday back all of a sudden, right?

Lisa (01:36:00.55)
Oh, yeah, right. Oh, it should be quite good. But yeah, like I we've had a lot of awesome guests, and we've had a lot of guests on who have a lot of years under their belt in, you know, in this field in some capacity. But I think it's not just like I think it's the years the experience. And I think just, you know, the humor and the way that you're able to present things, I think you're captivating. And so it's been like an absolute pleasure having you here.

Chuck (01:36:24.322)
Fucks sakes.

Van Asher (01:36:27.117)
Thank you.

Lisa (01:36:29.67)
I don't know what these two are going on about right now, but we're gonna ignore them. Um.

Chuck (01:36:29.826)
Fuck you.

Chuck (01:36:33.374)
It's, Vance just sent me the picture.

Van Asher (01:36:33.422)
Haha

Lisa (01:36:36.459)
Ha ha ha!

Van Asher (01:36:38.002)
That's last year's calendar. I'll send you the 2024 one as well.

Chuck (01:36:40.81)
Oh, I'm looking forward to it, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

Van Asher (01:36:43.605)
That one, and that was funny because I took that in, I share a garage with this woman who doesn't really know me well, but who's very sweet, who's like in her 60s, and like I'm naked with my phone on a timer on my motorcycle going, I hope she doesn't come get her car right now because this is gonna be a really hard explain. I mean, not that hard of an explain because it was called out, but a difficult thing to explain. No, she didn't, but.

Chuck (01:37:03.502)
Did she come get her car right now? Okay.

Chuck (01:37:12.362)
Okay, okay. Anyway, Attica, what you got anything you'd like to say before we get into daily gratitude to see how I have to do that now Lisa, right? I have to clarify where we're at.

Atika (01:37:17.336)
I would just thank you for your work in harm reduction. And I'm so fortunate to found you from the Chicago street nets. I think that's how I found you, right, Ben? And like in this line of work, we just have to have like each other because it's a mucho loco out there and you just.

Van Asher (01:37:33.29)
Yep. Yeah.

Atika (01:37:41.739)
Right? Mucho loco. And you just, this, I feel like me and Ben are like, we're just like this little happy dysfunctional family with like a bunch of history of trauma and failed suicide attempt. And it's just so refreshing to be, to just joke it around, you know, like make jokes out of, you know, the horrible past. And it's, it's amazing. It's amazing that someone like you exist.

Van Asher (01:37:44.09)
See.

Chuck (01:38:12.398)
Absolutely, absolutely.

Van Asher (01:38:12.478)
Yeah, I'm gonna send you a bunch of different pictures, Chris. There was a series of postcards that I made in the late 90s. I made 250,000 postcards, and one of them was a Barbie sitting and injecting, and it said, this woman's a role model. She's using a sterile syringe, which I got some slack for, but whatever. And...

Chuck (01:38:22.278)
Wow.

Chuck (01:38:30.238)
Wow. I imagine so. I imagine so.

Van Asher (01:38:39.029)
But on the back it said there's never been one documented case of HIV from sterile injection equipment or from a sterile syringe. If you inject, please contact your nearest needle exchange and add a list of all the local ones that we had.

Atika (01:38:49.923)
I like.

Chuck (01:38:52.642)
Wow, you like to push buttons. That's for sure, hey? Yeah, yeah, ain't nothing wrong with that. You've got to get the attention somehow. Yeah. That brings us to my favorite part of the show and that is the Daily Gratitudes. Edit, edit, edit. Let's start with you, Attica, what you got?

Van Asher (01:38:56.158)
a little.

Atika (01:38:56.743)
pushing the envelopes.

Atika (01:39:08.303)
I am grateful of this podcast and I'm so grateful to get to know Van. What?

Atika (01:39:21.755)
Oh my God, I thought I did something wrong again. Okay. Oh my God. Because I'm like the worst co-host. Okay, like I made a lot of errors. I'm so surprised Jack hasn't fired me. Yeah, so I'm so thankful of, you know, this podcast and getting such eclectic guests today.

Chuck (01:39:23.47)
That's the picture that Van sent me at the Barbie thing. That's all. Yeah. No, no, no. Fuck's sakes, Van.

Van Asher (01:39:29.197)
Hahaha

Chuck (01:39:36.686)
Oh my god. Oh, now, now.

Chuck (01:39:51.254)
Yeah, hey, isn't that amazing? The guests we get are, it's amazing, right? And I love the Ramble, I love Wednesdays, and I love our third episode of the week as well. We used to do Van, six episodes a week is what I used to do, which was nuts, it was nuts, right? It was unsustainable, for one, right? But Just the Tips Thursday was the one that you just heard me mention. It was kind of my break from it.

Van Asher (01:40:04.426)
A lot.

Chuck (01:40:14.902)
from the intensity and the high emotion in all of that comes with some of these episodes, as you can tell, hyper emotional or sensitive. And Just a Tips Thursday started out with ChatGPT giving us tips on living in sobriety. And my friend Scott Meaf out of Florida, he has a podcast down there called No New Friends Podcast. He's a mug, like they have ice cream socials and golf cart parades in his neighbourhood, right? Like he has never known.

Van Asher (01:40:41.386)
Wow.

Chuck (01:40:43.19)
He doesn't think he's ever known, but I know fucking well he has. Somebody who has suffered an addiction, right? But like it's of course you have, you just didn't know because of stigma and all those things, right? But he would come on with me and we'd had these great exchanges and the dynamic was neat because he wasn't anybody who had ever had to work, he was a muggle, right?

Van Asher (01:40:50.922)
Right, right, right.

Van Asher (01:41:00.157)
Right, right, right.

Chuck (01:41:00.618)
And just time being what it is, you know, him having his own family and show it and me having everything going on. It just, the time wasn't working out. But every half the things you said today just makes me think about just the Tips Thursday episode as a comeback thing. Because you're a pretty great guest, right? So absolutely. I am forever thankful for the guests that come on, yourself included, for my co-hosts and their time on the weekends. And it's so much appreciated. My family for...

Lisa (01:41:15.264)
Hmm.

Van Asher (01:41:15.354)
Oh, thank you.

Chuck (01:41:30.13)
helping me go to Thailand. They turned a really shitty situation at the beginning of the month here, where I was like seriously wondering where the hell I was gonna sleep, to me moving to Thailand and getting to, A, address the trauma that needs to be addressed, and B, live in a sustainable way, right? Where the cost of living is actually, you know, reasonable for what I do, so, you know. So, you know.

Lisa (01:41:49.217)
Thank you.

Chuck (01:41:50.858)
very thankful for that and I am thankful for 51 weeks today in sobriety it's of course so yeah one more week and we'll hit that year I don't count I don't do the 12-step thing because I don't count right that's one of the big drivers for me not doing it but when I figured out I was three weeks away from a year you know a couple weeks ago I gotta tell you I started counting all of a sudden right you know you know yeah

Van Asher (01:41:56.742)
Awesome.

Lisa (01:42:13.078)
I'm still a little excited.

Van Asher (01:42:14.365)
And that's a big accomplishment. And one thing I always had an issue with the counting about is like all programs, like all abstinence-based programs talk about a daily reprieve, but then put so much emphasis on time, which is so contradictory.

Atika (01:42:24.244)
Yes, same.

Chuck (01:42:27.05)
Right? And if you have a slip that lasts a day or two or three or four or a week, do you lose all that time? Right? No, you don't. No, you most certainly don't, right? So that said, I'll be in Moose Drop like three or four days after my one year where I went to 12 steps. And as much as I'm not a 12-stepper now, my first 30 days doesn't happen without the rooms. Right? And I've said that a hundred times. I needed that. I needed that at that time. So.

Atika (01:42:30.451)
You shouldn't. I mean, a 12 step, it's kind of like, it's gone. Like, no.

Van Asher (01:42:32.521)
You don't lose everything. No, no.

Atika (01:42:47.823)
way that works.

Van Asher (01:42:51.007)
Right.

Chuck (01:42:59.163)
Megan, who's the person that kind of, when I was in social detox in Moose Draw, she's the person that I first connected with. I heard her story. I told her I was coming to town and she wants to do the party cake with me when I get there for my one year. So I'll do it. Damn straight I will, right? So yeah, I'm very, very proud of those, right? So I'm just going to show everybody the picture that he sent me here before we do our exit monologue.

Van Asher (01:43:10.093)
Congratulations.

Lisa (01:43:12.054)
good.

Van Asher (01:43:22.365)
Oh, and I was sending it to Rachel as well. Lisa as well sent me a, oh, this one. Yeah.

Atika (01:43:22.679)
You sent me that too, I remember! Then you sent me that.

Chuck (01:43:26.01)
Oh, I'm gonna show it to the viewers. Yeah, is that in reverse text to you guys too or just to me? Can you read that or is it in reverse text to you? Oh, okay, okay. So there it is, yes. Lisa, you see that? Yeah.

Atika (01:43:31.823)
I can read it. Yeah, yeah, I saw that yesterday.

Van Asher (01:43:34.417)
Oh no, I can read it, yeah.

Lisa (01:43:40.554)
I'm busy looking at the other one. Love the socks. Touche. That's awesome.

Van Asher (01:43:41.057)
Yeah.

Chuck (01:43:42.51)
Oh, ho. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Van Asher (01:43:46.721)
Thank you. And here's the one for next year's calendar I just sent you.

Chuck (01:43:47.662)
There you go, there you go. Well, uh.

Chuck (01:43:53.778)
Oh dear, oh dear, okay, yeah, yeah.

Atika (01:43:55.127)
Is it the one you sent me, then?

Lisa (01:43:57.139)
Oh, a motorcycle. I love it.

Van Asher (01:44:00.297)
Yeah. Yes.

Chuck (01:44:01.454)
Okay, ladies, put it away put it away right yeah, right yeah

Lisa (01:44:03.038)
That's amazing. I Narcanj your honor student. I love it.

Atika (01:44:04.979)
Yeah, yeah, I love it.

Van Asher (01:44:08.913)
And people get really mad about that. And I say, no, but I have. I've given naloxone to people from all different walks of life. One of the videos.

Atika (01:44:09.836)
Yeah.

Lisa (01:44:13.53)
Yeah, I believe you.

Atika (01:44:14.019)
Oh yeah, I've now locked so on a CEO.

Chuck (01:44:18.254)
Of course you have. Of course you have.

Van Asher (01:44:22.621)
I made a video called Naloxone Breaking the Stigma. It's an animated video where it starts out this young black woman with a green mohawk is skateboarding through the park. And because we're such a racist shitty society and the Ramones I wanna be sedated as playing, people are probably thinking.

Atika (01:44:41.336)
Yeah.

Van Asher (01:44:42.569)
drug addict, which I hate the term, you know, and but then she goes past a guy in a suit who's experiencing an overdose and she's like, oh wait, his pin pupils, difficulty breathing, I think he's overdosing. Let me see if I still have that naloxone kit that I got. And

Chuck (01:45:03.166)
Yeah, yeah, right.

Hmm, hmm, wow, wow. Okay, okay, I'm gonna put a cap in it. I can't, I can keep going for a long time. No, no, no. To the listeners, you would be my final gratitude every time.

Van Asher (01:45:12.809)
Yep, sorry. Sorry.

Lisa (01:45:14.751)
I know.

Chuck (01:45:21.942)
which you guys are doing, please keep doing it. We're still growing, we're still, you know, it's kind of amazing and overwhelming sometimes, and for the good though. Keep liking, sharing, commenting. Anytime you do any one of these things, you're getting me a little bit closer to living my best life. My best life is to make a humble living, spreading the message. The message is this.

If you are inactive addiction right now, today could be the day. Today could be the day that you start that lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call into detox, go to a meeting, do whatever the hell it is you need to do to get the journey started because it is so much better than the alternative. And if you have a loved one who is suffering an addiction right now, just taking the time to listen to this episode, if you could just take one more minute out of your day and text that person, let them know they are loved. Use the words.

Atika (01:46:02.091)
You are loved.

Lisa (01:46:06.674)
You are love.

Van Asher (01:46:07.55)
You are left.

Chuck (01:46:09.762)
that little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings them back. Stop.