180-BONUS- DR. LISA ON THIS PAST WEDNESDAY

Chuck (00:01.462)
Hey everybody. So originally what we had planned for this weekend was that Lisa and I were going to do a quick segment on kind of looking back at Kaleidoscope Wednesday. We found I found my watchers, listeners, supporters have kind of missed that kind of overview of the week. And Lisa's missed doing it. And Ryan really loves it as well because, you know, he's caught an ego and well, he likes to get the feedback on what he's talking about so he can, you know, serve us better in future episodes. But.

The episode with Van Asher went a two-hour marathon episode, and I wouldn't change that for the world. Then Lisa and I recorded a thing that was supposed to prequel the episode, and it turned out to be a half hour unto itself. So it's just too much to pack into one episode. So I thought, hey, you know, a half hour, that's enough for a quick short episode, and we can kind of do a recap on Wednesday. So that's what we're doing here. So any conversation that might lead up to, you know, sounding like it was supposed to be a part of the episode, please just ignore that. And while I got your attention.

So some of you know by now that I am off Thailand. Our sponsor, Mike Miller, who, I'll put him in as the sponsor of this little bonus episode here too, as the title sponsor at the Autra Treatment Center, offered me a scholarship. And where that starts is months ago, when he was on the show for the first time, and what an amazing guest. Go back and check out this episode. Just search Mike Miller on the website, you'll find him right away. At the end of the episode, he says, man, you've got some trauma you really need to deal with.

And I guess it was that obvious, right? And I've been somewhat open about my PTSD and some of the things that got me to this point. And now I've got this opportunity to go deal with it. And then over these months since he made that first offer for the scholarship, we've been talking and, you know, he keeps talking about the cost of living, how much less it is out there. And hey, I don't bring in much as a podcaster, right? I bring in just enough to cover expenses and.

not quite enough after that to sustain myself. So month to month I have to kind of lean on my family and ask for a little bit of help here and there and I'm so blessed to have that help. Well, my family in turn is helping me get there, right? So, but that's about it. There's a major deficit left for what I need for cash because once I get there, I'm not coming back. And it's kind of scary to be on the other side of the world with absolutely no money. So I'm not much one to ask for help. I don't like it. I'd rather give you something back. And with that said,

Chuck (02:22.429)
Any donations that's given, I'm more than happy to...

Chuck (02:27.926)
you know, give you a shout out within the episode or perhaps dedicate an episode, you know, it's depending on the amount of money, of course, I'm more than happy to do those things. And the big ones is maybe you've lost somebody to addiction or a drug poisoning and you would like to honour their memory. And I am more than happy to dedicate an episode and talk a little bit about who that person is inside the episode as well. I mean, we've, we do plenty of that with Memorial Mondays and not plenty, plenty makes it sound like that's enough.

I wish we could do them every day. I wish we could memorialize every single person we lose because maybe we would get the goddamn attention of the people that matter. But the reality is it's not sustainable. It's not sustainable for my mental health. That's why we don't do them every week anymore. It was just becoming too damn heavy for me. And just to immerse myself in that sadness every week, it's part of being hypersensitive, right? So anyway, enjoy the commentary on the Wednesday. We get into a little bit more as we tend to do, right? They're organic conversations.

I think it went really well. Take your feedback to tell us whether or not we did a good job. But please, there'll be a link in the show notes to my GoFundMe. And if you could help me out, you know, every donation gets me a little bit closer and I couldn't appreciate it more. So thanks guys. Enjoy the show and we'll talk to you soon.

Chuck (00:02.678)
All right, so before we get into the rest of the show, we talked about maybe covering the previous week's kaleidoscope Wednesday. So Lisa, you being the one that pays much closer attention to that, what do you think? What are your thoughts on this one?

Lisa (00:02.933)
Thank you.

Lisa (00:19.146)
So first of all, if Ryan is listening, I love that we're going to do this because it is something I've missed from the old Weekend Rambles, you know, when we would get a chance to sort of spend some time talking about Ryan's episodes. I always find myself watching the Ryan episodes and like, like talking to my laptop, like wanting to be part of the conversation.

Chuck (00:41.235)
And you could anytime you could be. Our recording schedule is a little sporadic. So you know, but yeah, yeah.

Lisa (00:46.738)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, so you guys are talking a lot about stigma. And which is obviously like a common topic that we talk about a lot on the podcast anyway, right? Some things that really stood out to me. One was the explicit connection between stigma and shame, which, you know what I mean? Like, it's like when it's said, it's like, oh, like, it's obvious. But I feel

Chuck (00:53.611)
Yes.

Chuck (00:59.835)
Yeah.

Chuck (01:07.426)
8.

Lisa (01:16.762)
separately and don't necessarily draw the connection between the two. Um

Chuck (01:21.514)
Right? And I'll give you a peek behind the curtain. We've already recorded next week, and Ryan immediately spoke to that about this last week's Wednesday, and said it was an aha moment for him too. He made it sound like this was something that he had been rolling around in his mind for a long time, but it was not. It was a totally different way of looking at it for him as well. So, continue though, but yeah, right.

Lisa (01:25.undefined)
Yeah.

Lisa (01:43.59)
Yeah, yeah. A lot of what you guys were talking about this week was the stigma experienced by or felt by the families. And so again, you know, like it was sort of just, like I could feel what you were talking about. But what was really interesting to me was that the feelings it brought up for me.

Chuck (01:55.586)
right, which is something you can relate to.

Chuck (02:13.013)
Oh.

Lisa (02:13.118)
And what it was bringing up was this like sense that like, I don't even know how to describe this. Cause the episode was so supportive of the families and what the families go through and that it's not talked about and there's not a lot of support and that family members don't get the escape by getting to go get high. But in some ways I feel, I was gonna say I felt, but it's not a felt,

aware of a feeling that I don't feel worthy of that amount of credit and support as a family member.

Chuck (02:53.698)
Really, that makes me legitimately sad, Lisa. It does, because you should, because you really should. And if we treated ourselves like we treat our best friend, because anybody else who's been through what you've been through, if you're talking to them, do they deserve that much credit and support? Right? You know?

Lisa (02:54.898)
Really. And you know, again, yeah.

Lisa (03:06.198)
Yeah.

Lisa (03:13.874)
Yeah, totally, totally. And I think for me, and again, they're not mutually exclusive, but I almost feel like when there's a lot of acknowledgement for what suffering families experience, it's almost like I feel like it has to come at the expense of compassion in my case or my brother. And I'm like, I don't want it. I don't want, you know what I mean? And so it's not, it's not mutually exclusive, but

Chuck (03:39.176)
No. Yep.

Lisa (03:43.43)
Again, it's now twice in this episode that I'm going to bring this up because the order that we're recording these, but it goes back to that, that text message that I sent to Devin a long time ago, where, you know, like my brother has spent a lot of time apologizing and, and living with shame and feeling sorry. And I, you know, yeah, is it hard to be a family member who

Chuck (03:54.015)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (04:12.286)
doesn't have control of the situation, who sits on the sidelines feeling helpless, who can't fix, you know, who can't fix the problem. Yeah, it's hard. But do I think that it's harder to be in my shoes or in my brother's? I think my brother's. Yeah.

Chuck (04:31.754)
And without a doubt, without a doubt, it's a tough place to be. I just think, personally, where we direct our energy as a show.

Lisa (04:36.722)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (04:43.104)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (04:44.966)
I think that if we can help the family members and support the family members, indirectly we're going to do more good because people in active addiction don't typically turn it into a podcast, right? So by helping you, especially during those times when your brother was still living the hard way, we are in effect helping that person, right? If I can help...

Lisa (04:58.154)
Yeah.

Lisa (05:08.054)
Absolutely.

Chuck (05:14.41)
Ah, okay. This is not gonna be popular, and I'm gonna catch shit for this, I might, I don't know. Not about being popular. I think there's probably somebody in my family that's not gonna be happy to hear me say these things. If I can prevent one person from feeling that, because I helped their family to understand what the real truth is, then wow, right? Like wow, right? Because it was horrible for me, horrible, you know? So,

Lisa (05:39.124)
Yeah.

Chuck (05:44.534)
Helping people to understand it is helping that person. Right? You know?

Lisa (05:47.442)
It is totally. And I think like maybe just through my own personal experience though, like I feel like I haven't had a hard time finding people who had compassion for what it was, might be like for me as a family member. And I think the sense I have is that I, it's the person suffering in addiction who faces the most stigma.

who like as a sister, I was never looked at. And it kind of got talked about. So maybe people have had other experiences where maybe it's like as loved ones, sometimes they're made to feel like they made it happen or they're contributing to it happening. I haven't had that experience really. And so I feel like in terms of who I think in my family unit has felt the stigma the most, like I still think it would be my brother.

Chuck (06:41.726)
Assuredly it would be, yeah. If I, I'll interrupt with something there. I think I told you about this, and I think I mentioned on the show before, there's somebody in my life, I don't know her very well, we've tried recording but it didn't work out, we gotta do it again. She had all of her friends and family tell her that if she continued to support her ex in his journey that they would stop talking to her, right?

Lisa (06:43.422)
You know, but we've talked to. Yeah.

Chuck (07:09.962)
So they're very different experience, very different experience. And you want to like, that just pisses me off. Because, and if you're listening and you're one of those people that would pass that advice on to somebody or say that to somebody who's supporting somebody or has a loved one that's in it, you're doing that for you and you're not doing that for the person that you think you're supporting. You're not using tough love on them. You are doing that to make your life a little more fucking convenient and a little easy. And it's bullshit.

Lisa (07:12.436)
Totally.

Lisa (07:16.566)
Totally.

Lisa (07:35.73)
Yeah, yeah. Well, it's like when Ryan talked about, you know, the definition of stigma as a mark of disgrace associated with like a circumstance or a person or whatever it was. And he raised the question of disgrace to who. And, right? And like that really kind of hits. Especially, you know, when it was talked about, it all kind of went together. But in the show, you know, there was talk around how more often, I don't say always, but more often.

it's the men, it's the dads who are the ones who have this urge to set these harsher boundaries. And I just can't help but wonder, you know, because you guys talked about transgenerational stigma. And again, this idea that it's it brings shame on the family, right. And I feel like that's something that stereotypically men are going to think about and talk about and worry about more.

One of the other things I do believe is that, I think again, if we talk about sort of the stereotypical family where, you know, the men were the breadwinners and the men were the protectors. And I think, and I think a lot of people struggle with it, but I think men more than women struggle with not being able to fix and not being able to control things.

And I think that is part of what perpetuates totally. And part of it again is that addiction is so complicated. Like it's so complex. There's so many layers to it. There's no clear solution pathway to a solution that's ideal. And I think men more than women struggle with that. And I think part of having these harsh boundaries

Chuck (09:05.057)
Yeah.

Chuck (09:08.61)
would be that driver for sure, right? Yeah.

Lisa (09:34.39)
cutting them off. And I think is that it's a black and white solution. You know, that well, if we speak to them, if we give them food, if we do these things, we're enabling. And so it's black and white. And I think it gives this false sense that, you know, that they have the answer. Because the alternative is to admit that there is no answer and that, you know, it's okay to feed your kid. Even if you're not going to.

Chuck (09:55.178)
Yeah.

Lisa (10:03.006)
give them $100 cash, you know, like there's so much in the, in the shades of gray, but living in shades of gray can be really uncomfortable. And I think more so for men, I think. And I think even, yeah, and particularly older, like when you talk about the transgenerational, I think, you know, the older you go back, I think it's harder and harder and harder. And I think that was something that like, I saw evolve in my own dad.

Chuck (10:04.918)
Yeah, right.

Chuck (10:16.051)
in that stereotypical man. Absolutely, right? Yeah, yeah.

Lisa (10:32.102)
over the 20 something years with my brother, right? Like I think that, I still think he's a fairly concrete thinker. But there was definitely an evolution where it used to be like there's one solution to this. And.

Chuck (10:34.87)
Yeah.

Chuck (10:49.642)
man I sat and had supper with, you know, last week was certainly an enlightened individual, you know, so yeah, without a doubt, without a doubt, right? Yeah.

Lisa (10:56.69)
Yep, exactly. Right? Yeah, so I just, and I still, I feel like I need to like think about it more, but maybe it's something I'll even chat about with Ryan one day, but just that sort of undeserving sense of so much support and credit and validation and acknowledgement for what it's like to be a family member. Which I, yeah, it's kind of interesting because I haven't really thought about it before.

Chuck (11:19.71)
Yeah.

Lisa (11:25.554)
And Ryan talked to about like stigma in mental health in general, right? And I see so much of that. Um, yeah, you know, like this podcast we do, it's, it's heavily addiction focused, but obviously in like my regular job working in a hospital in Calgary as a psychiatrist, like I see defenses against

Chuck (11:29.29)
Yeah, yeah. I can only imagine in your position. I mean, fuck, yeah, yeah.

Lisa (11:49.49)
mental health diagnoses, I see defenses against engaging in therapy. Somehow to do therapy means you have to admit you're broken. You know, and yeah. So what?

Chuck (11:57.538)
Yeah, and so maybe it does, but so what? Right, and that's so what? Yeah, I am broken, right? You know, right? Yeah, you know, yeah. Absolutely, right?

Lisa (12:04.51)
Yep, and everybody is to a varying degree and varying degrees even throughout your own individual life. It's like the same thing, I'm obviously a huge proponent of therapy, but also I prescribe medications regularly. And you wouldn't believe how people...

Chuck (12:13.035)
Yeah.

Lisa (12:24.826)
struggle to take a psychotropic medication, either because, again, they're accepting or admitting that they're mentally broken and there's so much stigma against it, because I'll say to them, but if I told you had diabetes, would you take your insulin? Of course they would. But with psychotropic meds, what I see time and time and time again is patients will go and Google, they'll Google the medication, and then they'll say, well, it can cause all these side effects.

Chuck (12:39.223)
Right? Of course. Yeah.

Lisa (12:52.55)
And I'll say to people, do you ever Google your antibiotic? Do you ever look that up? Because trust me, like they, some of them have horrendous potential side effects. The thing is most people don't experience them. But the difference again is like, why is it that with an antidepressant, for example, people need to go and Google them and they're fearful of taking them.

Chuck (12:56.214)
Yeah, right.

Chuck (13:08.403)
Exactly.

Lisa (13:20.094)
but they'll take insulin and they'll take their antibiotics and they'll take their heart medications and they'll take their cholesterol medications. And...

Chuck (13:26.742)
Well, and I could speak to that very thing. As you know, I've been, you know, bifenton, and I'd said it to somebody in my family. Well, you know, I'm not a medication person. That was three or four weeks ago now, and it's deeply hurt me, right? Like, you know, and my response was, if you were in my head, you wouldn't think that way.

Lisa (13:38.472)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (13:50.302)
Yeah.

Chuck (13:51.414)
Like you just wouldn't think that way. So, but I like, still, right now, it's really, it's bringing something out in me. It was like, you are just completely dismissing that then, by saying that, right? You're not a medication person. Or are you a cast person when somebody breaks their leg? Right? Like, cause like, you know, if you had the unwanted chaos, you wouldn't think that way, right? You know?

Lisa (14:01.671)
Yeah.

Lisa (14:07.315)
Exactly.

Yeah. And the funny thing is, and the funny thing is that they'll say they're not a medication person, but if a doctor told them that they had diabetes or that they were at a risk of a heart attack, I bet you that they would suddenly be a medication person, much more willingly than if someone said, look, I think you have anxiety or I think you have depression or I think you have ADHD. And

Chuck (14:26.378)
Right? And as with most, you know. Yeah.

Lisa (14:37.082)
And also I'll hear sometimes with psychotropic meds that it's like, well, I don't want to band-aid the problem. You know, I don't want to just mask the problem. And I'm just like, but that's not what's happening. Like, particularly, like, if you look at it with anxiety, when you go on an antidepressant for anxiety, you actually create an increase in your brain in something called brain-derived neurotropic factor. And it actually heals the neurons that are contributing to your anxiety. It is not a band-aid. If you take somebody with ADHD.

and you give them a task and you put them in an fMRI machine and you watch their brain activity, areas of the brain that would activate in a neurotypical person don't activate in someone with ADHD. You put the person with ADHD on a stimulant medication and you task them again, and now their brain fires in a similar fashion to a neurotypical person. And so these aren't band-aids, you know, they're actually, they're

Chuck (15:28.45)
So how do you write? No, no.

Lisa (15:31.99)
They're helping where the brain or the body's not doing what you want it to do. Just like when you give somebody insulin because their pancreas doesn't make the required amount. You know, it's not a bandaid. Yeah, I also loved the conversation, which I think was like a, like a, I think I feel like there was like fireworks going off in your brain too when you guys talked about it. And I don't know how I'd never put it together myself before, but this idea that we don't

Chuck (15:33.147)
or treatments.

Chuck (15:41.814)
right? Yeah.

Lisa (16:00.251)
ever say alcohol overdose.

Chuck (16:02.754)
Right, right, you know? Yeah, you know? And it was, you're right, fireworks going off in my brain for that, right, you know?

Lisa (16:05.504)
Right?

Lisa (16:10.898)
And like, cause I remember like 30, almost 30 years ago as a teenager, I remember having friends who had alcohol poisoning.

Chuck (16:18.826)
Of course. So they went and they got the charcoal. And they were dumb. They were laughed at school. But not laughed. They were laughed with at school, not laughed at school. Right? It was OK. Right? You know? Yeah.

Lisa (16:22.198)
Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, was like kind of not a big deal. You had to go like, yeah, you had a little too much, you know, maybe don't drink that much next time. And I feel like, again, that stigma, right, because it's like overdose just has so much more stigma associated to it. And it has blame, right? It's like, because I, you know, I haven't really thought about this before. Now I'm just like talking on the fly here, but it's like

Chuck (16:44.77)
Damn straight it does. Yeah. Yep.

Lisa (16:54.57)
When people die by intentional overdose, again, maybe overdose still has too much stigma and it's not the right word to use. It can still be an intentional poisoning. But somehow, yep, and which is very different. But I think when you use the word overdose, it creates this gray zone that kind of covers all of it.

Chuck (17:08.258)
That's suicide. That's not an overdose. That's suicide. Very, very different.

Lisa (17:20.934)
And then you're going, well, did they do it on purpose? Did they want to do it? And there's like blame associated. Right?

Chuck (17:27.87)
100%, that's what it is, right? And which leads me to thinking, I haven't before, how many, how many of these overdose, how many of these drug poisonings are intentional? How many people can't hack it, right? And you've heard me say, you know, for the last year and a half of my active addiction, I carried a chunk of fentanyl, in case that was the day that I finally had the guts to do it. So...

Lisa (17:42.27)
Yeah.

Lisa (17:50.015)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (17:55.63)
for somebody else, how many of them are actually suicides? We'll never know, and I don't think it's impossible to know, so it's not really something I wanna spend too much time trying to wrap my head around, but it's worth a consideration, most certainly.

Lisa (17:59.602)
Yeah. No.

Lisa (18:06.878)
Yeah, yeah. And I feel like I'll have family members, like if I'm doing an assessment with a patient, I'll often ask about family history, you know, of either mental illness or suicides or whatever. And the families will sometimes say to me, well, I have a family member who died by an overdose, and we don't really know if it had been an accident, or if it had been a suicide. But I feel like the families have that insight, but they don't

Chuck (18:29.727)
Yeah.

Lisa (18:35.918)
often speak it unless asked. And I think that outside of the family, there's people probably lean more towards saying it was an overdose, you know, because there's blame. And it doesn't acknowledge the suffering that when you say somebody completed suicide, I think that I think it evokes more empathy because you go, wow, like what was going on that the person ended their own life, but overdose blames more.

is kind of how I feel. Yeah. And then the other questions were interesting this week too, right? Because it was like you said more. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, I loved the this, I think it was the second question about the qualities and skills that make an effective therapist. I wonder if the person asking that was a therapist trying to figure out how to, how do I mimic Ryan? How do I, how do I

Chuck (19:06.614)
Yeah, yeah, right.

Chuck (19:17.233)
personal to him, specific, right? Specifically personal, maybe I'll put it that way. Yeah, yeah.

Chuck (19:32.525)
hahahaha

Lisa (19:33.758)
How do I be a Ryan? Right? And like he gave a great answer that I think is like, you could go into a room full of people who were studying to be therapists and you wanna talk about the skills and the modalities and all of these things. But I think for me, like where my brain went, which is not an all encompassing thorough answer to the question at all, but...

two things. One is heart. And I think that's what Ryan has in spades. And I think it's why people connect with them. And that's not something any therapist is going to learn in a textbook, you know, but if you don't feel with the person and for the person, I just don't think you'll ever be as effective. And, and just an ability to connect like an ability to establish rapport, you know, like,

Chuck (20:25.806)
Of course not, of course not, right?

Lisa (20:33.786)
I remember going through my residency training where we have to do training in various therapy modalities, and they had told us that the rapport a patient feels with you as their therapist by miles trumps the role that the therapist's education plays. You know, if you want to look at success of a therapeutic relationship, rapport is the number one predictor of how good it's going to go.

Chuck (21:02.506)
Makes a lot of sense to me, right? Yeah, yeah.

Lisa (21:04.006)
Right? And so, you know, and again, I think that's the thing with Ryan, is that Ryan, when you talk to Ryan, you feel seen, you feel heard, you feel cared about. And so, he's able to establish rapport. And when you can establish rapport, you can also, you can confront people. And it's received, right? People's defenses come down. And so, if you've got that, that rapport with somebody,

then you can really poke and dig at things that otherwise people will have defenses against and they won't let you in. And so, yeah, so those are just the two few things that stuck out.

Chuck (21:40.394)
Absolutely, right? Absolutely. Yeah.

Chuck (21:48.122)
It's funny, and I wish I would have put this together while we were recording that episode, but we talked about the reels.

Right, and I can show you a before and after of one of his most recent ones here that he did on his own and you would be like, holy shit, I'm a magician, like Chris, you're a magician, right? That's what you'd say. I laughed with him, oh, I laughed with him, right? And when he sent it to me, he says, this is rough, man, I hate doing this, but he sent it to me and I worked with it and it turned out really good. Very recently, the one I did with him talking about when you look in the mirror, what reflects, right? So.

Lisa (21:55.056)
Oh yeah.

Lisa (21:59.57)
Yeah. Oh.

Lisa (22:04.116)
Oh really?

Lisa (22:17.478)
Yeah.

Chuck (22:22.022)
Some of the best reels I produce come from our episodes when him and I are just talking and there's a rapport. You know what I mean? Because he's got that back and forth and that's the difference. It's the difference right there is because he's having a conversation and you get to see that caring, that heart he has in spades. You get to see the real Ryan, right? And whereas when he's talking to a camera, he's talking to a camera. So it's a very different thing and that's the difference, right? So, right? And you know, you're right, you're right. Yeah.

Lisa (22:26.29)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lisa (22:47.39)
Yeah, and it's the connection, it's the heart. And it's hard to just put heart out there without being connected to somebody else in the moment, right? Yeah.

Chuck (22:55.174)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Whereas with myself, when I'm doing a reel, A, I don't have to look at a script. I can look at what I wanna say because I'm not showing my face for most of my reels, right, you know? But I can tell you.

Often I have to re-record because I get emotional during those ones. Especially the angry ones, right? I have to like, oh shit, okay, stop, start again. Because I get quite, you know, right? Right? Yeah, well we need to get pissed off sometimes, right? So that's just the reality of it, right? But yeah, go ahead though, sorry I didn't mean to interrupt.

Lisa (23:11.795)
Oh, yeah.

Lisa (23:16.69)
I love the angry ones though. I was like, yeah, I get a little fired up. Yeah, yeah. No, that's okay. Yeah, I think that's kind of, I'd almost rather ended on that one. I was gonna talk about the other question, but I feel like, you know, ending on the topic of the skills that make somebody an effective therapist and recognizing.

that I are this and maybe it's sad. I don't think it's what you learn in a book. You know, and I think that Ryan has that gift and I think we're lucky that we've got them and you know.

Chuck (23:53.504)
No.

Chuck (24:01.174)
Very much so, very much so, yeah. I'm so glad he's done with camping and shit because we talk like every day, right? And it sucks, you know, it sucks. Huge gap in my life when we don't get to chat every day, right, so, you know, huge gap for sure, for sure. All right, all right. I think I'm just gonna put this out as its own episode. I think just a mini, like a half episode or whatever, we're gonna do it that way. That other one's so damn long anyway, might as well, right? So, you know, right? It's, yeah, yeah.

Lisa (24:07.797)
You're like... Yeah.

Yeah. Alrighty.

Lisa (24:27.674)
Yeah, yeah, the other one is long. Yeah.

Chuck (24:30.938)
Absolutely. So, so with that said, if you know somebody who's inactive or, ah, we'll start that over. If you are inactive addiction right now, today could be the day, today could be the day that you start that lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call in a detox, go to a meeting, whatever the hell you need to do to get that journey started because it is so much better than the alternative. And if you have a loved one who's inactive addiction right now, you're just taking the time to listen to this little chat. If you could just take another minute and text that person, let them know they are loved. Use the words.

Lisa (24:59.635)
You are loved.

Chuck (25:01.582)
A little glimmer of hope could just be the thing that brings them back. There we go.