205- WEEKEND RAMBLE - DR. LISA - FAMILY DYNAMICS IN ADDICTION

Chuck LaFLange (00:01.366)
Hello everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds. Welcome to another episode of The Weekend Rumble on the Ash to Awesome podcast. I'm your host, Chuck LaFlandre with me in Virtual Studio. Halfway around the world is the lovely Dr. Lisa. How you doing today, Lisa?

Lisa (00:13.698)
good. It's sunny, it's warm, it's the weekend. I'm good.

Chuck LaFLange (00:19.362)
It's warm, she says.

Lisa (00:23.386)
I know as I sit here and look at snow outside the window, but you know, I think it's been the mildest winter that we've had in Calgary that I've known. You know, it's like, yeah, it's crazy. It's like five to 10 degrees every day. I'll take it.

Chuck LaFLange (00:31.31)
No kidding, eh? No kidding, yeah.

I do miss, I shouldn't say I do miss that. I did miss it so much when I was in Saskatchewan for so long. Right? It was just like, I waited for three years for a Chinook that never came. Right? I was like, does it like, it's always winter here? You don't get any breaks? Like that sucks, you know? Yeah, I did miss that. Of course here it's hot. It's always hot, you know? But yeah, it's nice. It's nice. Jeez, eh? And we're like, we're at the end of December. It's January, February.

Lisa (00:45.347)
Mm.

Lisa (00:50.146)
Right?

Lisa (00:56.15)
but this is like permanent Chinook.

I know. I'm jealous.

Chuck LaFLange (01:03.606)
Really, you'll still get a cold snap or two in there, but you know, it's looking like a pretty mild winter for you. So, right. Good stuff. Oh, there's always, there's always a cold snap. February, February will kick your ass, right?

Lisa (01:09.822)
Maybe. Totally. Yeah. And I've missed I've missed. I know. I know. Probably. That's that's a problem for future Lisa. So present Lisa's okay. But yeah, we didn't do the weekend ramble last weekend. And, you know, I missed it.

Chuck LaFLange (01:18.904)
Mm. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:27.186)
Hahaha.

Chuck LaFLange (01:32.918)
No, hey. It's funny. It's funny how you get to... I know I didn't do a ramble. I didn't do a Wednesday with Ryan. I've worked no less throughout this time, but it feels kind of weird. Like everything's just kind of out of whack right now. I'm kind of looking forward to get back on track and, you know, the... as much as I bitch and moan about Saturdays, and I do, right? Because like it's... we do the Black Ash Radio, which is Saturday morning for me. Typically I'll have another thing to record

Lisa (01:36.684)
Yeah.

Lisa (01:42.102)
Mm.

Chuck LaFLange (02:02.294)
for everybody else, you know, back home. And then we'll do this right at midnight. So it's like there's a lot happening on a Saturday for me. There's there's often I'll work 20 out of 24 hours. Right. And I bitched moan about it, but I tell you, didn't have it last week and it felt kind of weird. So I'm kind of glad to be back on track this week for sure. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. Yeah, yeah.

Lisa (02:22.386)
Right? Yeah, yeah, I agree. It's good.

Chuck LaFLange (02:31.146)
Since when we last talked, was I, for the ramble, had I moved yet? Yeah, I must've. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I would've, because I moved here on the 12th, so the last one we would've done. I am. It's tougher than I thought it was going to be. Not tougher than I thought. Realized it's maybe a better word, right? Okay, I knew it would be hard. I knew all those things. But it's really fucking hard.

Lisa (02:38.482)
You had, you had like, I think just moved. Yeah, and you're getting settled in to Krabby Town.

Chuck LaFLange (03:00.79)
I could lie.

Chuck LaFLange (03:05.562)
There's a sense of like, I am the only foreigner in my... Go ahead.

Lisa (03:07.042)
And I think there's something different about, there's something different about knowing something will be hard and actually experiencing the hard. Do you know what I mean?

Chuck LaFLange (03:16.95)
100%. I know what you mean. I'm the only foreigner in my entire housing project here. Right. There's a couple of people that speak some broken English that I've talked to. What's really funny is kids stare at me. They stare at me because there's no other, like, I imagine some of them, like, of course you've seen white people. You haven't seen white people in the neighborhood though. Like that's a weird thing. Right. For them. They stare at me all the time. So I make funny faces at them.

Lisa (03:22.283)
Yeah.

Lisa (03:34.58)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (03:45.55)
When their parents start looking, I get them in trouble sometimes and it's kind of fun. I totally do it. I totally do it all the time. Yeah. Sometimes. Yeah.

Lisa (03:49.802)
sure they love that.

I remember traveling years ago. I traveled to Morocco and I was with a friend and she was like five foot 10 and blonde. And we were in like some small towns in Morocco, not touristy spots. And I remember similarly, like the kids would come over and they would like sort of touch her. You know, it was like.

Chuck LaFLange (03:59.893)
Okay.

Chuck LaFLange (04:06.101)
Oh wow.

Chuck LaFLange (04:19.832)
haha

Lisa (04:22.154)
like, you know, just super fair, really blonde hair. Yeah, she was like very mesmerizing for the kids there, so.

Chuck LaFLange (04:31.05)
No kidding, eh? No kidding. Yeah. So I have some fun with them. Things like the grocery store. You see, these are the little things that I never talked about. Maybe that's the difference between knowing it and living it. Or the little things that I never thought about. It's a grocery store. Nothing's in English. Right. Driving and think about Thailand is there's food everywhere. These like Thai people are typically slim and slight in general.

Lisa (04:33.39)
Same thing.

Chuck LaFLange (04:58.838)
I don't know how, because there's food everywhere here, all the time. There's little roadside carts with this or that. The thing is, I don't know what's on them because I can't read the language. So I'm driving by, and when you're driving a scooter in Thailand, it takes all of your attention. So it's hard to be curious. So that's been interesting. There's so much. If I could get this education visa figured out...

Lisa (05:00.23)
Yeah.

Bye!

Lisa (05:17.79)
Yeah, no kidding.

Lisa (05:23.246)
Have you found any, like, are there any apps, are there any apps where you can like, take like a photo of writing and it's able to decipher the writing and translate it?

Chuck LaFLange (05:34.494)
Oh, Google Translate, 100%. It was with the lack of that app is why I ended up with the fire chicken, right? I'm sure I told you about that, where my phone died, right? This is anybody that doesn't know what happens. I'm at the grocery store here, the big C as it were. And, oh no, I was at Lotus that time. Anyway, I'm looking at dog treats. That's what it was when my phone dies, when the camera dies on my phone.

Lisa (05:38.684)
Okay.

Lisa (05:43.878)
Yes, he did.

Chuck LaFLange (06:03.61)
So I've got no translator. I'm like, oh crap. But even that, even just buying dog treats, like you've got pictures, you think it's, but it's like, it'd be different if I was like, if I had a bunch of money, because then I wouldn't be concerned about price either. Right? So, but trying to, you know, be responsible with my money and checking it out. So I was instantly really frustrated that I didn't have my translator app to do just that, to take a picture of the thing and then, you know, transcribe it to English, translate it to English. So.

Then I go into the KFC. Nothing is in English. At the KFC, the fucking name is KFC. You'd think there'd be some English somewhere in there. Nope. So I had no idea that I ordered enough chicken for five people and that it was the hottest chicken to ever exist in a KFC. So, but I'm not in a position to waste 20 bucks worth of chicken. So for the next two and a half days, I suffered it. I suffered that chicken good. Yes, I did. We got through it.

Lisa (06:49.23)
Ha ha ha!

Lisa (06:58.465)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (06:59.278)
The other day, I go to buy what I think are sweet potatoes, I get them home, I start peeling them, I think they're turnips because they're white, I melt it down. It all caught up to me all at the same time. You know, and I just had like a, it's actually really shitty. And then, they turned out to be a white brand of Japanese sweet potatoes, version of whatever strain.

Lisa (07:02.146)
That's so funny.

Chuck LaFLange (07:25.07)
They turned out really good. So I kind of kicked myself in the ass and went, okay, come on. Let's just rethink about where you are in life and what's going on and times are good. But it's been interesting for sure.

Lisa (07:31.564)
Yep.

Lisa (07:36.142)
I feel like the universe was trying to tell you something there. It's going to be OK.

Chuck LaFLange (07:41.59)
Yeah, it is. It is, right. I got my sidecar. I found somebody to install it. Hopefully that gets done for Monday. Go ahead, yep.

Lisa (07:46.646)
But I have to say...

Lisa (07:52.034)
Perfect. I was going to say like I've never lived in a country like what you're doing where I, you know, couldn't speak the language, couldn't read the signs. But I remember many years ago, I spent about a year living in Australia. And it was my first time I think traveling outside of North America. And I actually remember, and again, this is, you know, very much a privilege problem to have.

I remember it getting frustrating slash tiring that it was like, I didn't know where to do things. Like for example, right in Canada, if you, you know, we can go to shoppers drug mart and we know that they've got, you know, shampoos and soaps and hairdryers and Tylenol and Advil and all the things. And like I remember and again, such a stupid little thing, but I needed to buy a hairdryer because the plugs are all different.

I was like, well, I just need to go to the drug store to get a hairdryer. And the person that I was staying with was like looking at me going, like, you want to go to the drug store to get a hairdryer? And I'm like, yes, you know, and, and no, that's not the way it is there. But it's funny how much we take for granted knowing where and how to kind of get through our day and that when it's just like.

Chuck LaFLange (08:56.031)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (09:02.708)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (09:19.12)
You are describing exactly the thing. 100%. That's what I've been trying to describe and you just did a better job of it than I did. Yeah, yeah, right.

Lisa (09:19.438)
constantly not knowing where to get things, how to get things.

And, but you have to add in for you that there's the language.

Yeah, but there's the language for you. Like, at least I could go into a store and be like, where's the hairdryer? You know, but so I don't think, you know, I don't think I had it quite, it wasn't quite as challenging. Yeah, everything it takes effort. And, you know, you got to think about everything and we take for granted how much we go throughout our day, knowing stuff, and just how tiring it is when you everything is effort.

Chuck LaFLange (09:36.378)
Yeah, yeah. It's everything is tough, right?

Yep. Yeah.

Yes.

Chuck LaFLange (10:00.514)
Yeah, well said. I wouldn't have said it that way, but you got it bang on. You really do, right? It's, yeah, it can be frustrating. Again, though, these are privileged problems to have. I'm living in Thailand, like I'm in paradise, you know? I mean, Jesus, I got these wonderful people that helped me get the scooter and the sidecar, get that done. I've got like, my life is pretty damn good, right? That's like 14, 15 months ago, homeless.

Lisa (10:00.551)
all the time.

You know?

Lisa (10:08.859)
Mm. Yeah.

Lisa (10:16.921)
Totally. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (10:30.71)
in the winter in Regina, Canada. So I always have to remember that. That said, every now and again, especially with Christmas here, just adds to it, right? It just adds to like all of it. I am allowed to have a little bit of a pissy pants as long as I get over and get back together here. So I have.

Lisa (10:44.907)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (10:51.278)
Totally.

Chuck LaFLange (10:55.042)
Yeah, yeah, it's been interesting. Recovery community, I made that post.

Lisa (10:58.422)
And so what's Christmas, what's it been like?

Chuck LaFLange (11:01.998)
Christmas has sucked. I'm not going to lie. It just, but I knew that was going to happen, right? And something I've said a bunch of times, Lisa, this could have been, would have been the first Christmas I spent with my family in a very, very long time.

Lisa (11:08.191)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (11:26.442)
And I wouldn't change it for the world because there's a reason I came here and I've got to address my traumas and I've got to learn and heal. And I'm in a position to do more. I'm in a position to do what I love. And that was not looking good when I was still back at home. The time it kind of sucked though. You know? Yeah, it did. So, yeah. Um, yeah, yeah.

Here we are one more day to get through it's New Year's Eve here now. So, but yeah, go ahead. You were going to say.

Lisa (11:52.222)
Yeah, and I don't know, I mean, some people think things happen.

Lisa (11:59.626)
Oh, that's right. That's right. Just some people think things happen for a reason when they do. You know, some people don't believe that, obviously, but, you know, hopefully you've got lots more Christmases to have, and hopefully one of those gets to be with your family, and that what you've done this particular holiday is going to make...

Chuck LaFLange (12:02.289)
Yeah, yeah, just

Chuck LaFLange (12:16.302)
Yeah, right.

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if I saw them out here next year.

Lisa (12:26.57)
would be awesome. As I know your mom's traveled a lot, has she been to Thailand before?

Chuck LaFLange (12:27.866)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (12:31.494)
She has. Not a great experience. That's a story she can only tell, though I wasn't trying to adjust this, but it did not go the way that it was planned to go. And she was as sick as she's ever been, to use her words, while she was here. So, and like in the fourth floor of a stair hotel, it's like no elevator hotel. So, right, it was something else for mom. But that was her experience, right?

Lisa (12:39.406)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (12:54.538)
Ow.

Yeah, it's always fun with a suitcase.

Chuck LaFLange (13:00.378)
Yeah, right. I guess they did a really good job of taking care of her. Probably because they were worried about her dying on the property, but, um, no, she, she never experienced the Thailand that I'm experiencing. That's for sure. Right. I mean, this is, this is crazy. Phuket is busy and nuts and yeah.

Lisa (13:08.171)
Yeah.

Lisa (13:16.07)
Yeah. So I have to tell you over Christmas.

Lisa (13:23.614)
over Christmas, Alexis, who now refers to fondly as Uncle Chris, asked to see where Uncle Chris is. And so we found a 30 minute YouTube video of Thailand. And it you know, it's a lot of it's done by drone, I think, and different footage. And it's like cities and it's the country and it's the beaches and

Chuck LaFLange (13:33.67)
Aw.

Chuck LaFLange (13:40.141)
Okay.

Chuck LaFLange (13:45.253)
Yeah.

Lisa (13:51.87)
And so she has said that we must go visit you. And so we'll have to come see you in Thailand.

Chuck LaFLange (13:56.089)
Aww.

Chuck LaFLange (13:59.318)
Yes, you will. I mean, that makes it official, right? Oh, that would be just amazing. That'd be absolutely amazing. Yeah, yeah. Is that, so you asked for my address. Did that have, were you trying to show her exactly where I lived? Is that?

Lisa (14:02.986)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, we'll definitely do that.

Lisa (14:17.378)
No.

Chuck LaFLange (14:18.198)
Oh, okay, there's something else. Okay, okay, okay. Yeah, that's okay. Don't wanna make that weird. So I kinda did already. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know what? I just made the reel, like just, when I was waiting for you and I to record, I just posted it up online of me driving for 30 minutes. It starts at my house, but it's a one minute, 30 minutes condensed into one minute. You can show her that. Yeah, yeah, right.

Lisa (14:26.95)
actually think about that. She'd love it, but I hadn't actually thought about that. So yeah.

Lisa (14:38.177)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (14:45.11)
So it starts with me at my house on the bike and then scooting away, right? Well, you just wait. So here's what's about to never. Okay. Yeah.

Lisa (14:46.37)
Oh, she'll love that. She'll love that. And I've never been there either, hey? Like I've never.

never been to Asia. So I think it was actually the year I finished. Oh, I did. You're right. Sorry, I did go to South Korea.

Chuck LaFLange (14:58.35)
Didn't you? You went to Korea.

Chuck LaFLange (15:03.946)
Okay, okay, I think that counts. I think sorry to the Koreans, she didn't mean to exclude you in the Asian conversation.

Lisa (15:10.586)
I know. Well, I have to say, so when I was in South Korea, I was actually there attending the, they did a combined international society of addiction medicine. What was that again? Am I getting this confused? Anyways, it was definitely the International Society of Addiction Medicine Conference. And I went there actually with Rob and Monty, Dr. Tange and Dr. Ghosh, and we had presented there on a cannabis paper that we had done.

absolutely loved it, loved the food, of course, again, couldn't speak the language. And I've got celiac. So I had to found a translator and I would go into a restaurant, I would show them this app, they would read it. Also don't can't handle spicy food. We're like, you know, I'm soul siblings that way. And they would bring me food and it was amazing. But it was also at the time I was a few months out from writing my real college exams. I

Chuck LaFLange (15:55.779)
Yeah.

Lisa (16:08.69)
Alexis was a year old, I was breastfeeding. And I think I did that whole trip in seven days. And so I was there, but it was real quick. No, no, need to go back, need to go back to Asia. So.

Chuck LaFLange (16:15.122)
Oh wow. So that's not really experiencing. Yeah, yeah, no kidding. No kidding, right? Yeah, yeah. No, no kidding. No kidding. And I'll tell you what, right by Yachter, the new Yachter Center, the people that own his that property that they moved on to have these beautiful villas right there. They're just beautiful.

Lisa (16:28.073)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (16:38.654)
that you can stay at right beside Yatra. They're just amazing. I mean, you're welcome here, but it's a one bedroom loft in like the hood. Somehow I don't see the fam, you know, camped out on my main floor. But you know.

Lisa (16:38.678)
Oh.

Lisa (16:44.63)
Really? Yeah. Luckily, I feel like be between you and Mike, I feel like you know, you guys will have some advice and we can get a place and go over and stay for a bit.

Chuck LaFLange (16:58.066)
Oh, oh yeah for cheap dirt cheap, right dirt cheap. I was actually just looking with a friend today at flights I don't know how Round trip right now like if you were left in february and I don't know when you're even you know considering something But this person was looking at leaving in middle of february um Round trip for one person two grand

Lisa (17:02.411)
Right?

Beautiful.

Chuck LaFLange (17:22.914)
My flight alone was more than that to get here one way. It blows my mind. Yeah, yeah, right. Just timing and whatever, right? Short notice too.

Lisa (17:24.818)
I'm not surprised by that. Oh, really? Oh.

Because I know like when we go, yeah, like we travel to South Africa every, many times. Like my husband is from Cape Town. And so we've gone to South Africa quite a bit. And we can usually get round trips to Cape Town. The cheapest I think I've got them was 1600. And then up to, you know, 22, 23. I mean, you can spend as much as you want, you know, but generally can get them for that price. And I think with what Canadians,

Chuck LaFLange (17:50.671)
Wow.

Chuck LaFLange (17:55.482)
out. Yeah.

Lisa (18:00.374)
don't always realize is it is damn expensive to travel domestically in this country. Like it's crazy. You can go overseas cheaper than you can fly to Halifax. Yeah, it's insane. It is stupid. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (18:06.978)
It really is, isn't it? Yeah. Isn't that nuts? Hey, isn't that nuts? Yeah. So most definitely there's interesting here that the drugs are different here. They have math and they have a thing called the Yabba, but it's not so like there isn't an opioid epidemic. Right. Which is interesting. And from what I understand in Europe, it's not like that either. You know, the people that I met at Yatra.

Lisa (18:32.622)
interesting.

Chuck LaFLange (18:37.53)
We're very clear about that. Australia, it's not such a big thing either. I mean, it's around, the fat and all thing is around, but not... It's not an epidemic and I don't know why that is. Right? So, I think that's interesting.

Lisa (18:48.814)
It'd be really interesting to look at prescribing practices of opiates over the past 10 or 15 years in the different countries.

Chuck LaFLange (18:53.666)
Well, when you, when you were gone, we did that episode with Attica and Dr. Scott.

I think, Dr. Scott. He spoke quite a bit to some of the things that happened over there. Scott McDonald, that's it, sorry, yeah, yeah. He spoke to some of the things that had been happening over there. He felt that it was more about geographics than anything. So I'd be curious though, right? I believe that's what he said anyway. You know, my memory isn't necessarily the greatest, right? But it is a curious thing that...

Lisa (19:04.512)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (19:07.87)
Yep. Scott MacDonald, right?

Lisa (19:23.519)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (19:30.158)
But it's not a thing, and it's not a thing here at all, the opioid epidemic, like it's just not, you know, I don't even know if they would know what Narcan is for that matter, right? So, an interesting thing happened today, there was, oh, go ahead.

Lisa (19:42.082)
Thank God, right? So how is, have you...

Lisa (19:48.924)
You go ahead. You go ahead.

Chuck LaFLange (19:49.958)
Oh, okay. A friend of my mother's who got stranded in Canada during COVID, I think it was, but had been living abroad in the Philippines and somewhere else in Asia, Rhonda is her name, lives in Thailand, in Southern Thailand, down closer to the Malaysian border, and was driving through Krabi today, so she stopped in and we got to chat. We went for a coffee, so that was nice. But like...

It's funny, she messaged her, say, hey, I'm a friend of your mom's. I rented a room from her and moved off for a little while. You know, I was going to be coming through and wondering if you want to go for coffee. Yep. Yes, I do. I want to sit down and speak English with somebody. And yep, yep. So it was wonderful. She's actually working on a peace project here. Down in southern Thailand, so close to the Malaysian border. There was, I guess, some years ago, an insurrection of sorts, a religious war.

Lisa (20:26.07)
HAHAHAHA

Lisa (20:33.41)
Wow.

Chuck LaFLange (20:46.658)
you know, between Muslims and Buddhists, or Buddhists or Christians, I'm not sure exactly, so I shouldn't speak to that. But she is part of a project that is there to inter-secular peace and start to bring everybody together and start to heal from that. I thought it was just this wonderful story she was telling me. So I wanna get some more information on what the organization's called. It's an NGO, but you know, I'd definitely like to kinda share some of that, cause it was just...

I just love hearing about healing now. I really do. After my experience at Yatra, I just want the whole world to heal. Right? You know? I really do. Things have changed. Right? Yeah, drastically. Yeah. Mm-hmm. We sure do.

Lisa (21:27.76)
Yeah.

right? And the world needs a lot of it. You know? How are things going for Mike? Like, have you been in touch with him? Yatra's moved? Like, what's...

Chuck LaFLange (21:41.466)
Yeah, they're still setting up the new site there. I mean, the last time I saw it, there was still a ton of work to do, but then he sent me a picture of like the back area that had... When I saw it, it was still pretty much like jungle. And then he had sent me a picture mere days later and it was looking really good. So... I drove out there weekend before last. Just randomly. Nobody even knew I was coming. I just showed up and started walking through the property going,

Chuck LaFLange (22:10.146)
ended up going for lunch with a couple with Carrie, the yoga instructor and Teddy, one of the support staff there. Um, I think always, I think she's assistant director of something. I don't, I don't know. Teddy's a Thai girl though. And Carrie is from Detroit, some crazy lived experience herself. Carrie and I really connected quite a bit. Um, well, being the yoga teacher, I mean, she was really mean. I shouldn't say that. She's a beautiful soul, but, um, she was hard on me.

I feel in a really good way though, in a good way. They're getting set up, they're getting ready to go. This new property is amazing, it's huge. I mean, it's not the opulence that the one in Phuket was, and I think that's really the best, like it was, it was just pure opulence, the whole thing. But I think it's more conducive to healing. It's like a 30 minute drive through the countryside.

and all of these crasts, you know, those big like limestone hill mountain things to get to the Yachter Center. Whereas at Buket, it was like, it was an hour of complete fucking chaos driving from the airport to the Yachter Center. It was nuts, right? And so like right away, just, just that, um, everything about it. Yeah. Very much so. Yeah. No, that's it.

Lisa (23:16.398)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (23:31.65)
So is it more isolated now, like out in the country kind of thing?

Okay. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (23:38.614)
Nothing here is that isolated though, right? Because like everything happens right on the side of the road. You know what I mean? So like when you're going from one village to another, one town to another, you don't even realize that. Cause like it's all the houses just kind of are all there. It's very rare that you're actually in the country, right? So it's a weird thing to try and explain without actually showing it to somebody. So, but yeah, they're definitely, yeah, a lot of the conveniences they're gonna have to get used to not having for sure, right?

Lisa (23:43.073)
Yeah.

Lisa (23:58.644)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (24:02.89)
Yeah, I feel like I...

Lisa (24:09.862)
Yeah, yeah. And how are you like, are you missing it? Missing being at Yatra?

Chuck LaFLange (24:11.919)
your son.

Chuck LaFLange (24:17.37)
Yes, mainly because of the connections though, right? Like just having some people to talk to and bullshit with and all of those things, right? That's the hardest part. Yoga, I tried doing it myself for a little while. It's tough, like there's a reason that you have a yoga instructor, you know, because they can push you and they, you know, it's just it's accountability thing, right? You know? So I don't know how I'm going to address that exactly. I don't know.

Lisa (24:37.473)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (24:46.094)
But I mean, I walk so much with Gibson, that was my old dog's name, with Sonny, at least twice a day, sometimes three times a day. Though that third walk is like at noon, and it's so hot that it's like a 10 minute walk. I just, it's so bloody hot, right? But I try and get out with him at like seven in the morning, just after the sun just, has just risen, right? And then once just before it goes down at night as well.

It's scary in here. I'm not going to lie. Right. Like I always wonder what's going to come out of the grass or something. Like, cause it's like, there's lots of like relative, there's culverts and stuff here, right? So, um, yeah.

Lisa (25:26.814)
do you guys walk? Like do you walk around your place or is that when you use the, like do you guys take off and go somewhere further away or go to the beach or something?

Chuck LaFLange (25:34.314)
Well, the sidecar's not hooked up yet. So once that is, yeah, we will go for beach. But there's like, it's a quarter mile and a quarter mile, like stretch of road between here and the main drag, which almost is like almost country-ish, right? So I take him there and it's a nice incline going up that first quarter mile. So I'll go it up to the top and then back again and kind of.

Lisa (25:38.687)
Okay.

Chuck LaFLange (26:01.818)
kind of jog shuffle it, you know, if I've got the energy that day. So and it's like it's enough for him for sure. And we do that at least twice a day. Right. If I've got time and the energy, I'll take them on the next quarter mile leg right out to the main road and then back. So it's quite the, you know, we do get quite a little workout in there. And of course he's got the yard here as well to play in all day. Right. So, right. Yeah. He's coming along. So that's going to change here too.

Lisa (26:23.914)
Yeah, that's good. Yeah, that's awesome. So good.

Chuck LaFLange (26:31.722)
not change, but that's something that we're going to add. So I'm going to hook up the GoPro to the sidecar, and I'm going to start documenting us exploring Thailand together. It's going to be social media gold. All right, right. Oh, it's just wait. I can't wait for Alexis to see that. She's going to love that. Right, like she's going to go crazy for that. Yeah, but you don't have to do that here. I know what you're saying. You don't really have to do that here. Here's why.

Lisa (26:42.913)
Aww.

Yeah, that's awesome. You got to get up some goggles. I feel like you know those you see those dogs wearing those goggles.

Chuck LaFLange (27:00.93)
It'll never go past 60 kilometers an hour, like ever. 50 would be much more regular. And like when I'm driving at night, I don't have any sunglasses or anything on. Unless it's raining, I'll put the visor down on my helmet. But it's like the bugs here, it's not like at home. You don't get them. It's, you know, at home, you're like, you have to for the bugs. But here it's like they're crawlers, not flyers, I guess. I don't know. But it doesn't bug me at all, so why would it bother him?

Lisa (27:06.402)
Okay.

Lisa (27:30.226)
somehow creeps me out. Yeah, totally. Totally.

Chuck LaFLange (27:30.566)
right? It should, it should. There's some fucking weird, I battle ants here all the time in my house, right? You know, so, but, uh, ants, I've got it. I could constantly fighting ants. No. I've got it pretty much under control now. I've just, every day I got to find where the new leak is because they're like water. They will find that spot to get in and nothing sealed here. Right? I'm looking at a window right now, Lisa, and I got two of them.

Lisa (27:39.822)
Oh, yeah. I don't like bugs.

Lisa (27:56.398)
Crazy, hey? Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (27:59.642)
The outside pane is up and raised like four inches, and the inside pane is down and has like four inch gap on the top. So like it's staggered. There's no screen, there's nothing in there, right? I got two of those in the house. Like anything can come in any damn time it wants. Totally, like I see geckos all the time, but geckos are good because they eat the bugs, right?

Lisa (28:09.752)
You're right.

Yeah.

Lisa (28:17.206)
Yeah. I think that's a warm climate thing because it used to be like that in Australia. I like I lived in South Africa for a year. Same thing. Like nothing sealed, you know. I still remember. I know I remember when I had a friend from who was from New Zealand who had come over and I still remember them like going to the door, the front door of the house and like opening it.

Chuck LaFLange (28:24.146)
Yeah, of course. Right. Yeah. No. Well, why would you go to that expense?

Lisa (28:45.994)
and shutting it and opening it and shutting it. And like, they were like, it's like a fridge. It's just like, you can hear it like, and I was like, yeah. It was pretty funny. Yeah, yeah, I know. So I gotta tell you, so I worked all last week and so I've been staff now for,

Chuck LaFLange (28:50.882)
Hahaha

Hahaha!

Chuck LaFLange (28:58.122)
awesome. That's awesome. That's awesome. Oh, there's Yeah, go ahead. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (29:10.316)
Okay.

Lisa (29:14.914)
four or five years. And I've often sort of lucked out, I think, and I've, I've generally been off between Christmas and New Year. So this was, this was a first since I've been staff working between the hall, like in the holidays. And it was crazy busy. You know, half our docs are away on holidays. So I went into it kind of not knowing what to expect, you know, I was like, it's, you know, we're

half staff. So I was like, I feel like that's gonna make it busy. But then I also, you know, over the holidays, like I know Christmas Day, which I've never worked, I've been told is generally super quiet, you know, because even people who aren't necessarily feeling great, they're like, Well, I'll go tomorrow. Yep, yep, it's usually pretty quiet. And so I don't know this experience or this perception I had this week, what it's based on.

Chuck LaFLange (29:43.974)
Fair enough.

Chuck LaFLange (29:57.89)
Really? Okay.

Chuck LaFLange (30:02.594)
Yep.

Lisa (30:13.814)
but we were busy and I also had a colleague who generally works in the Emerge. We sort of trade off halfway through the week and they were away on vacation. And so I did four back-to-back days in the Emerge, one of them on Boxing Day being on call. And it was wild. It was so much.

Chuck LaFLange (30:29.989)
Okay.

Lisa (30:42.914)
So much drugs, so much, so many, I don't know what the grammar is there, but so many people in the Emerge this week, psychotic, most of them on meth, lots of meth fentanyl combos. But for some reason this week, what really stood out to me was something that you often say was the,

Chuck LaFLange (30:45.286)
Hmm.

Lisa (31:12.278)
perceived lack of connection. You know, and I don't know if I noticed it more because it was Christmas and Christmas for me is generally a happy time and like a time with family and a time with friends. But these people, so many, so many patients, they're there, they're there by themselves, you know. Most of them didn't have anybody come with them, didn't have anybody visit them. They're there, they're alone.

Chuck LaFLange (31:15.554)
Yeah.

Lisa (31:41.43)
And it just really stood out to me this week, that perceived lack of connection. And yeah, it was just really heartbreaking.

Chuck LaFLange (31:47.81)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (31:53.453)
It's...

And I don't think, I think you understand it Lisa, but I think most people just by default wouldn't when I say that exactly what that means. Your perception is your reality, right? So whether or not it's perceived doesn't really matter, right, that person is alone in their heart and in their mind, right? And.

Lisa (32:22.194)
Yeah, and I think I, you know, there's one individual guy this week who stood out to me and he you know, he was I think in his late 30s, indigenous male, single and hearing a bit about his history, you know, and just sort of a lifetime of trauma, abuse. He may in fact

be fairly alone. Like I did not feel that there was a lot of available, stable, supportive people for him. But I think for me too, because I have a brother who's lived and struggled with addiction for over 20 years, and I know that he never needed to be alone. We have always been

Chuck LaFLange (33:11.395)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (33:15.814)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (33:18.466)
we're here, we want to be here, we want to be in your life. So I always can help but wonder when I see some of these patients, are you really alone? But I can tell you without with absolute certainty that every one of those people that I saw this week felt alone, believed they were alone. They were there telling me I have nowhere to go, I have nobody to help me, I don't know what to do, I feel hopeless.

Chuck LaFLange (33:32.774)
they believe it. 100% right.

Lisa (33:47.934)
And so for them, there was definitely the perception, which is their reality, that they were alone, you know, which it's sad. And it speaks to the resilience of humans.

Chuck LaFLange (33:58.203)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (34:03.362)
And it is, it's...

Chuck LaFLange (34:09.278)
One of the things that you've noticed, no doubt, in my post as of late is that message to not assume they know they're loved because of that perceived lack of connection. You can't. First hand. It sucks. It really does. So if you got a loved one out there, you have to let them know.

Lisa (34:26.399)
Yep.

Lisa (34:34.606)
Totally.

Chuck LaFLange (34:38.242)
You know, and I know it's easy to get wrapped up in how unfair it is as a loved one. The things that you've gone through, the things that you continue to go through.

Chuck LaFLange (34:53.058)
But imagine how hard it is for that person that feels they are 100% alone. That person that's done those things and is dealing with that shame and that guilt. It's horrible. It's truly horrible. Right. And you know,

Lisa (35:06.038)
Yeah. And I think one of the gifts that I have in doing, one of the privileges or gifts I have in doing the work I do, is that I am a loved one. I don't have the lived experience. I haven't walked in those shoes. But I've lived in the loved one's shoes. And yes, it's hard. And you feel helpless. And it's like you suffer alongside the person you love. And yet.

Chuck LaFLange (35:25.526)
Yeah, you have.

Lisa (35:35.57)
you can do nothing to fix the problem. It's like you too are suffering, and yet you, there's no solution for you to fix it, to make it stop, to make it better. But I think because I also work in the career that I do, is that I sit with these patients, and I hear these stories, and I see the pain and the suffering and the tears and the fears. And I see it. And

Chuck LaFLange (35:41.192)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (35:46.127)
Yeah.

Lisa (36:05.75)
Because it's very easy and I've done this too. Like in the loved one role, I have been mad. I've been mad, I've been resentful, I've been frustrated. I've been all of those things. And then I go and I sit with patients who I'm not emotionally connected to as a loved one, but I'm connected to as a physician patient situation. And their suffering and their perception of lack of connection is so real. It is so sincere.

Chuck LaFLange (36:33.666)
Yeah, it is.

Lisa (36:36.146)
You know, it's not fake, they're not pretending, it's not put on. And that really helps me from being incredibly resentful and frustrated sometimes. So yeah, I've never really thought about the fact that that, you know, that is a privilege I have in, because it's different when it's your own loved one. When it's your own loved one, that's, you know, you're just so emotionally connected to it that.

Chuck LaFLange (36:41.157)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (36:48.322)
Yeah, right. Right.

Lisa (37:04.854)
you know, and because you're hurt and you're scared, you get angry and resentful and frustrated. So it's hard to sometimes when you're feeling those things to find the compassion in those moments. But when you sit with people like these patients, they have no reason to bullshit me, lie to me. And it's very real, you know?

Chuck LaFLange (37:08.484)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (37:23.755)
No.

Chuck LaFLange (37:28.374)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (37:30.466)
And it was interesting too, because last week I also had a girl who I know a little bit, reach out to me from Vancouver. You know, she sent me a Facebook message asking for help. And it's a bit difficult because I don't know Vancouver very well and I don't know resources very well. And I had said, you know, if you can get to Calgary.

Like I can definitely help, but of course, how does she get to Calgary? Like this is a girl who's homeless, living in East Hastings. And I said, like, let me try to do some research and see if I can get some information for you. And I reached out to, in downtown Vancouver, the equivalent in Calgary to like the RAM clinic, like the Rapid Access Addiction Medicine program that's there and it's based out of St. Paul's. And I called them to get information.

Chuck LaFLange (37:57.517)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (38:21.795)
Yep.

Lisa (38:27.674)
And the lady that, you know, answered the phone was so lovely. You know, she gave me all the information, all the hours, you know, she even went so far as to say, you know, we really hope she comes in. And she said, you know, we have social workers, we have doctors, we can assist with medication, we can assist from a social work perspective to make sure she's safe, we can help her apply to residential programs.

And it just kind of, and it's funny because again, I do this for work. So it shouldn't really feel like a surprise to me. Um, but as the disconnect between, I think the fact that this girl felt like she didn't know where to go. She didn't know what to do. She felt there was no help available. And then I call and speak to a program that was probably blocks away from where she was and speak to this lovely person who's like, we can help her.

Chuck LaFLange (39:20.943)
Yep.

Lisa (39:26.154)
And so it's, you know, it's interesting to me as to how I think there is a lot. There's not sufficient help, I will say that, but there is help. And yet I think people living in the life. Yeah, yeah. And it's just kind of, you know, made me question over the last week, like, how do we get that across to the people who need it? You know,

Chuck LaFLange (39:37.794)
It's more than people understand for sure.

Chuck LaFLange (39:53.13)
And that question is how indeed, right? Because it's harm reduction has a lot to do with that. And like we were talking pre-recording, you're the person that kind of tuned me into that concept that it's a chance to, you know, for connection. And I should say we do have a sponsor in Vancouver, the biggest treatment centers in Canada, TWC.

next time somebody calls you from Vancouver, you just let us know, right? And that's a no-brainer phone call. I didn't even think about that till just now as you were speaking to Lisa, right? That was one of the things that was made very clear when TWC came on as our first sponsor way back when was, you know, if you've got people that need help, we are here, right? So that's Together We Can Recovery Community. So, right, Recovery Society, I guess it is, but definitely.

Lisa (40:27.484)
Yep.

Lisa (40:32.743)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (40:49.646)
that is somebody and if you are still everything, everything. They are, I believe there's a detox program. I know that they do have people fresh off. They have long-term treatment, they have interim housing, they have supports for families. They have, like they are, there isn't much they don't cover. At GWC, like they offer everything there, right? The supports for families are free.

Lisa (40:50.743)
What do they offer? I mean, I know the name.

Lisa (41:15.574)
And residential, do they have residential?

Chuck LaFLange (41:18.458)
They are the biggest residential treatment centers in Canada. They have more beds than anybody does. Yep, they're huge. Yep, yep. So.

Lisa (41:27.71)
And what's the cost?

Chuck LaFLange (41:31.07)
Most of it's government funded. Most of it's paid with per diem. If not all of it, in a case like that actually. I do believe actually. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that it is publicly funded. Almost everything they do, right? So, definitely worth looking at, right? No, but it's TWCRecoveryLife.org. That said, I have a direct line of communication with the ED. Right?

Lisa (41:46.702)
Wow. I do know where they're located in Vancouver.

Lisa (41:55.883)
Yeah, I'm going to look.

Chuck LaFLange (41:59.658)
I can actually give you the email address to the person you need to know if you're looking for that. And we can have that conversation. He's actually a very good friend of Ryan's. A very good friend of Ryan's. So, yeah, yeah. So that is the network. That is the recovery community right there kicking in. Definitely some help that way. And maybe for somebody else that's close to your life as well in there. Right. So.

Lisa (42:00.302)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (42:05.715)
Yeah.

Lisa (42:12.754)
Okay.

Chuck LaFLange (42:28.154)
could draw on those resources as well, right? You know, yeah, yeah. I can't believe that none of that occurred to me until this very moment, but I'm like, what? Right? Yeah.

Lisa (42:29.965)
Hmm. Yep. Yeah, absolutely right.

Lisa (42:40.303)
But even me, right? Like we, I mean, I know about them. I hear about them every time we do this. But yeah, and it just, it also made me think, you know, because the this girl had reached out and said, you know, I can't keep living like this, you know,

Chuck LaFLange (42:45.996)
Yeah, right.

Chuck LaFLange (42:53.602)
You know what? I gotta interrupt you. I gotta interrupt you, Lisa. Okay. The two of us, there's a sponsor for this show. We know about, I know a considerable amount about, and we never even considered that when we were sitting here thinking about resources. And that's what we do. How in the fuck does somebody who's in it get to this point?

Lisa (43:16.012)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (43:21.862)
Like just everything you just said, and here we are sitting in a place of like my, I think about them once a day, didn't even occur to me. So how does somebody who's in the middle of it connect these dots, right? Sorry to interrupt, but it just like, that seemed like a thing all of a sudden.

Lisa (43:34.846)
I know. Yeah. No.

Lisa (43:42.542)
And it made me think too, you know, that we always talk about, you know, let them know, let your loved ones know they're loved. And I, yes, right? Yes, yes, yes. But also, I do think that you can go an extra step and you can figure out the sort of things that we're talking about for this particular girl right now.

Chuck LaFLange (43:54.165)
Yes.

Lisa (44:13.23)
where they're at, you know, like, because sometimes they're not in the same city as you. Make some phone calls. Do a bit of research. And from time to time, maybe you...

Chuck LaFLange (44:20.766)
We talked about this very thing on Black Cash today, Lisa. We talked about this. We have community everywhere. I don't care where you are in the world. If you reach out, I know that we can find somebody in your part of the world with resources. I know we can, because we've got people all over the place. 100%. I will make time every time.

Lisa (44:25.874)
Yeah, right. It's like send a number. Yeah.

Lisa (44:35.81)
Yeah.

Lisa (44:41.886)
Yeah, and do it. Yeah, like reach out whether it's to the podcast, whoever. Yeah, and then share that with your loved one. Because again, like you take this particular girl, like she reached out to me, we had a conversation. And I, you know, I said to her, I will do some research and

Chuck LaFLange (44:50.958)
Yeah, 100%.

Chuck LaFLange (44:55.458)
Yes.

Chuck LaFLange (45:07.661)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (45:08.286)
she's homeless, you know, she had actually gone into the library in Vancouver to message me, so she said I will check back. So again, like, partly the fact that she's an active addiction, but also psychosocially, like if you don't have access to the internet readily, how do you do this stuff? You don't have a working phone, maybe how do you do this stuff? So it's like, do some research for your loved one. And from time to time, send them the number.

Chuck LaFLange (45:36.268)
I'm kidding.

Lisa (45:38.358)
you know, send a phone number, you can, or an address, you know, because maybe they don't have a phone, but send an address, you know, you can go to this place on these days, these times, and people will help you. Because you never know when they're going to have that fleeting desire to get help. And if they don't know where to go, then it's, there's a greater chance that fleeting moment passes. If, you know, if you, if they can look in and look at

Chuck LaFLange (45:43.767)
Exactly.

Chuck LaFLange (45:52.375)
Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (46:03.447)
100%.

Lisa (46:07.638)
the last message they got from their mom or their dad or their sibling or their friend and go, oh, yeah, like I can just walk six blocks over there and apparently somebody can help me, they might go, you know.

Chuck LaFLange (46:17.846)
Yeah, repetition, repetition and keep sending it to them whenever, right? Whatever it takes, it takes. I actually just sent you the email address and name of the person you need to know. So it's over there. So that it's the last message you see for me, right? Yeah. Right. And if you tell them who you are and what you're like, you know, what you're part of, you'll definitely get his attention. Right. So that was a commitment that was made early on in our relationship.

Lisa (46:24.638)
Yeah.

Lisa (46:31.158)
Perfect. I'm going to email them. And I'll, you know, yeah.

Yeah.

Lisa (46:44.726)
Yeah, yeah. Perfect.

Chuck LaFLange (46:48.238)
And I'll reiterate what I was just saying, wherever you are in the world, wherever you are, if you reach out, if we don't know somebody, we know somebody who knows somebody, I guarantee it. I guarantee it. You know, that it doesn't matter where you are, right? You know, so yeah, right. It's pretty awesome. It is so, it is so.

Lisa (46:49.278)
Yeah, right? Is that awesome? Like.

Lisa (47:02.023)
Yeah.

Lisa (47:08.798)
Yeah, it's so true, right? Yeah. It's interesting to this is making me think about you sent me. You sent me some, some shared communication that was going on the Facebook page. And I did have a look at it. And I think I was actually at work that day and didn't really have a chance to get back to you. But it was interesting. And it was somebody in the recovery community sort of going on about boundaries and enabling.

and the difference between them.

Chuck LaFLange (47:40.262)
Aha, yes, yes. Oh, I certainly do, yeah, yeah. Subsequent conversations, no it's not, subsequent conversations have brought some clarity to that as well, right? Here's the thing, and people get, I have a pretty hard stance on.

Lisa (47:41.902)
Do you remember what I'm talking about? That like really surprised me. You know, and I'm not gonna say who it is cause I don't think that's relevant.

Chuck LaFLange (48:06.242)
not like feeding somebody is not enabling them. And like, that's not even a conversation I'm really willing to have anymore with anybody. If you believe that feeding a human being is enabling a human being, you're wrong, period. Feeding a human being is doing just that. It is feeding a human being. So let's just cut that shit out right now. It's not even a conversation I'm willing to have with anybody anymore. I just, it's ridiculous to me. However.

Enabling and loving somebody That could be a trick those give me tricky waters to navigate right they can be and You gotta if you don't

Lisa (48:43.839)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (48:50.082)
If you're not sure, if you're not doing things with intent, you gotta reach out to somebody that can help maybe guide you through that process and support you through it if nothing else. Right? Because there isn't a one size fits all for any of this shit. For any aspect of addiction, there is no one size fits all, right? Not for the family members, not for people suffering in it, not for the harm reduction people, not for people in the recovery industry. There's just no one size fits all to any of this shit. There is this many versions of...

recovery and to help and addiction as there are souls in the world and You know, maybe getting somebody to help you walk through that Maintaining healthy boundaries Ryan and I have done two episodes on that just recently right coming into the holidays for this reason, right? You do have to have healthy balance you have to protect you and you have to protect the rest of your family You don't have to do anything I wish that you would

Lisa (49:35.862)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (49:47.538)
At the same time though, if you could let them know they're loved and just be, ah, so freaking hard, you know, it is, it is.

Lisa (49:55.446)
Yeah. And I think, you know, because one of the, when we, when we did the last weekend ramble, it was with Sonia, right?

Chuck LaFLange (50:04.878)
Yes, it was. Yeah. She had some great insights on to that.

Lisa (50:09.07)
So I actually had, I loved her. I loved her, she was fantastic. But I actually had people send me messages after that came out. And yeah, I can actually share it with you. And in particular, it was about me sort of asking you and Sonia about...

Chuck LaFLange (50:13.918)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (50:21.772)
Okay.

Chuck LaFLange (50:34.187)
Okay.

Lisa (50:37.442)
wanting, I want to make sure I say this properly, like that you kind of as a loved one want your loved one an active addiction to get to a place of desperation because the hope is that from a place of desperation they're going to ask for help. And so one of the things

Chuck LaFLange (50:52.121)
Yeah.

Lisa (51:01.718)
that and I'm going to say it again even though it was talked about two weeks ago because I did get messages about it and it's probably the thing that I personally have struggled with the most when it comes to having a brother who struggled with addiction is the housing piece.

Chuck LaFLange (51:11.394)
Well, that's very relevant then.

Chuck LaFLange (51:19.396)
Hmm

Lisa (51:20.554)
That's a hard one. Because I agree with you that shelter, housing, water are basic human needs, right? And obviously, you don't want to deny people shelter, housing and water. I can tell you though, that when my brother was housed, be it through, you know,

some government programs that he temporarily had support from that kept him housed. I do believe that he was able to bullshit himself that he was somehow sort of okay. Because it's like, you know, I've got a place, like, and by having a place, I'm okay. Like, to me, there's a lot more to being okay than having a place. But when he had a place, he certainly there was this sort of

Chuck LaFLange (52:01.734)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (52:18.938)
arrogance about it that like, I'm fine, like, I've got a place, what are you talking about? When my brother asked for help and went to Thailand was when he found himself sleeping in a stairwell.

Chuck LaFLange (52:31.226)
Yeah.

Lisa (52:32.482)
And I remember in the summer visiting with him in Vancouver and him talking about that stairwell and talking about how he would lay there and be like, what the fuck am I doing? I'm in a stairwell. And I think it was, and again, everyone's different, but for him, it was just like, I'm living in a stairwell. And that was this

I can't lie to myself anymore. This is what my life has come to and I'm gonna ask for help. So there are programs out there, housing first. I think Gabor Matej who I love a lot of his thoughts and insights, but he's a huge, everybody should have housing.

Chuck LaFLange (53:12.025)
Yeah.

Lisa (53:21.218)
And I don't know where I stand on that. And maybe it's because again, it's different person to person. But you know, I've often, and I think I've even said to my brother, you don't need to sleep in a stairwell because I will help you sleep in a treatment center. Like I will help you go somewhere where you're safe and warm and fed and you can get help. But for me, I had this feeling that to get him an apartment.

I was like, I'm just giving you a warm place to lie to yourself and to kill yourself slowly. And I was like, I can't do that. But then it's really tricky because I agree with you and I bought my brother groceries all the time and your Thomas with my bottom groceries, but it's like, I don't know. Like, and I don't even, even after we spoke about it two weeks ago, I don't even think I know where you and Sonia stand on it. And maybe it's because it's just such a gray muddled, ugly, uncertain thing, but it's like,

Chuck LaFLange (54:14.15)
Ha ha ha.

Lisa (54:22.151)
I do feel that if my brother wasn't desperate, he wouldn't ask for help.

And so how do you house and feed and all the things and still let someone get to a place of desperation?

Chuck LaFLange (54:28.667)
So.

Chuck LaFLange (54:32.151)
my gut reaction.

My gut reaction to that is there has to be, there still has to be boundaries, right? So I can house you, but you can't use, right? And I don't know if that's like housing first, if that stays by those ideals or not, but I mean, most certainly, if you're gonna allow somebody to stay in your home, that's a boundary you are 100% allowed to put in place, right, and probably should.

But again, that's, you know, every case is individual. And housing as a form of treatment, and we talked about this in the episode, right, with your friend, Dr. Scott, right?

Lisa (55:22.09)
Yep. Yeah. Yeah, Mark Scott is housing. And I'm just

Chuck LaFLange (55:22.17)
Was that it? Yeah. Yeah, where he said the most effective treatment is housing, right? Mark Scott. Is housing, right? But it's not just housing. It's not just here everybody have a house and everybody have a locked door to go do your drugs behind. That comes with some caveats about having community, not just housing, community and supports and all of those things. Right. So, you know.

Lisa (55:42.358)
Yeah.

Lisa (55:47.554)
Yeah. And I think the housing that Dr. Scott spoke about was there were staff, like this was staffed housing. This wasn't just like, here's the keys to an apartment, you know? Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (55:56.234)
Yeah, right. Yeah, a community, right? Yes, you can't just get the worst thing you can do for somebody who's suffering a severe fentanyl addiction is give them a locked door to go hide behind. That's not going to work out well, right? Not and not without some sort of connection and some sort of supports and some sort of all those things, right? Staff, whatever. So in my mind, I might be wrong. And hey, anybody listening or watching, if you're if you're listening right now and you disagree, then by all means, you know, drop comments.

Lisa (56:09.718)
Yeah.

Lisa (56:13.387)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (56:26.714)
do the things because I'm learning as we go. Lord knows I am learning as we go.

Lisa (56:31.502)
And again, I always have to remind myself too, that like my brother's situation, just like everyone's situation, everyone's situation is unique. And in my brother's case, he didn't have to be homeless. He didn't have to sleep in a stairwell. There are people out there who have to, they have no other option. And that's different. My brother had places he could go, whether that was family's homes, where again, you can come but you can't use.

Chuck LaFLange (56:44.814)
at any point, right? Yeah.

Lisa (57:00.382)
And there were certainly times in his addiction where that was not an option. That was, you know, he wasn't going to be able to just come stay at the house and not use. There were also open doors to addiction programs that he knew he could go to. And he knew that as a family, he would, if he needed financial support to be in those programs, it was available to him. And not everyone has that. I would say a huge portion of people don't have that privilege.

Chuck LaFLange (57:08.665)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (57:21.218)
Yes.

Lisa (57:28.522)
So it is different, but I do think that that's a lot of what families struggle with. It's like, I don't think any mother wants her child hungry on the streets, you know? And I'm sure fathers neither, but as a mom, I speak to moms, but it's like, no parent wants that. But I think that that's where, that's what's so hard is that they're like, but if we give these things, does that just keep them where they're at?

Chuck LaFLange (57:31.031)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (57:39.222)
No.

Chuck LaFLange (57:59.854)
I'll speak to the food thing specifically.

Lisa (58:00.311)
And I've personally.

Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (58:06.57)
In my mind, feeding another human being ends with that statement. Period. You are just feeding a human. Right? I don't give a shit what you spent your money on. I'm feeding a human. And if you don't overthink it past that and you leave it at that, if nothing else, you're making, you're keeping a connection with that person. If nothing else.

Lisa (58:24.572)
Yeah.

Lisa (58:32.494)
Totally. Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (58:32.61)
And that has to outweigh any negative consequences that may be perceived of feeding a human being. So if I think the trick to that is to end the, like to end that statement with I am feeding a person, period, it doesn't matter. Right, if you can do that, then, you know, it is like harm reduction, it's exactly like harm reduction, right?

Lisa (58:41.204)
Yeah.

Lisa (58:50.786)
Yeah, and it is an opportunity, almost like harm reduction, right? Because if I think of the times when my brother was...

Yep. And if I think about the times that, you know, him and I would, what I would often do, because we didn't live in the same city, and I, you know, I wouldn't, when I would visit him, we would go grocery shopping. And again, you know, a lot of those times he was not housed somewhere with access to a fridge. And so but we would go grocery shopping. And, you know, and I would also usually take him out for meals, like we would go to a restaurant and eat. And, and I think it's

Chuck LaFLange (59:28.695)
Of course.

Lisa (59:30.594)
A, there's connection, there's time together. We would laugh. Like I remember times that we would be grocery shopping and we would joke about when we were kids and I'll remember this. And I think that it's connection, but it's also reminding people that reminding them about happy times. Happy times that were or happy times that can happen again, right? Totally, totally.

Chuck LaFLange (59:33.734)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (59:52.694)
And you too.

Chuck LaFLange (59:56.878)
both people in that circumstance. Right? Yeah.

Lisa (01:00:00.798)
Absolutely, you know, but it is it's time to, to connect and remind them that it doesn't have to stay the way it is, you know, that was like I had described, right, like last Christmas, my brother had been here at my parents home in active addiction. And that was the first Christmas, I think, in five years that he was with us. And

Chuck LaFLange (01:00:09.142)
Yeah, yeah, 100% of this.

Lisa (01:00:31.03)
That was a huge part of that holiday for us, I think was, I mean, obviously we loved having him around, but my hope throughout that entire few days that he was here was that we were reminding him of what existed outside of active addiction that was there for him, that was waiting for him. You know, I think that's a huge part

of maintaining that connection with people, you know?

Chuck LaFLange (01:01:04.598)
100% is yeah. Oh dear.

Lisa (01:01:07.422)
Yeah. You know, and I think he was a lot like you, because I think you kind of would keep away from, you know, like my brother was not someone who was beating on the doors, you know, breaking into the house stealing things. He generally when he's been on well keeps us at a distance. And I think it's, it's shame. It's not wanting to hurt us.

Chuck LaFLange (01:01:18.467)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:01:25.934)
Mm-hmm, very similar to me in my experience.

Lisa (01:01:33.878)
So again, and I do appreciate that that's one side of the loved one piece that I don't really understand from a lived experience perspective is there's a lot of people watching this who say, but when I invite my child home, he robs us, he yells at me, he's abusive towards me. And that's just a whole other layer of complexity that I empathize with, but.

Chuck LaFLange (01:01:55.278)
Right? There's no one size fits all and I don't know how many times we can say that.

Lisa (01:02:01.962)
No, nope, it's, yeah, super hard, but.

Chuck LaFLange (01:02:04.354)
Yeah. Hey, why don't we switch into something a little more positive and get into my favorite part of the show. It's the daily gratitude. Why don't we do that? Yeah. All right. What you got for us today?

Lisa (01:02:14.114)
Let's do it. Let's do it.

Lisa (01:02:19.128)
Ah.

What have I got? I think again, like after this week that I've had, I am grateful for my awareness of this community and the privileged position that I'm in to try to share that with people, you know, that to see people alone and feeling so hopeless and me having this community and so much awareness that there is hope.

that there is absolutely hope. There are people everywhere who want to help you, you know, every one of you. And I just like, it's true. I feel so lucky. Like there are, there are, you know, there are, we know so many firsthand people who would volunteer their own time and energy and effort to help anybody who stepped up and said, I need help. And when I see patients

feeling so hopeless and so alone. I feel so privileged to know that that's not true. And to be in a position to be able to pass that on to people, you know, I feel very grateful for this community. And it's just getting bigger and bigger. Like, right, like, it's just

Chuck LaFLange (01:03:28.599)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:03:37.325)
It really is. It really is. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:03:46.487)
Yeah.

Lisa (01:03:47.014)
March last year. And then to look at not even a year later, you know, like nine months later, how much further it's grown and expanded. And it's just incredible. You know?

Chuck LaFLange (01:03:55.278)
Night.

Chuck LaFLange (01:04:02.031)
It's crazy, isn't it? It really is. It's absolutely crazy. Yeah. Well, that's into my gratitudes. Recovery community, 100%. You know?

Lisa (01:04:08.034)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:04:18.554)
I um, earlier this week, you know, leading up to Christmas, I'd had a very, um, rough couple days where, you know, I was, I was tempted, you know? Um, I made that post and I don't know if you ever watched that vlog post, you know, about when I was, you know, first time tempted in a lockdown. The responses.

Lisa (01:04:37.666)
I saw that blog post two days ago.

Lisa (01:04:44.726)
Totally missed that post.

Chuck LaFLange (01:04:47.334)
The responses I got were fast and furious and amazing. And recovery community, 100%. And that's really what kind of got me on this kick for the last week was every time I look around, every time I have a conversation, I'm just like in awe at that very same thing that you're talking about right now. And it's, yes, the Ash's Awesome World has grown.

in a big way and continues, it gets the growth now, it's off the charts. As we've been sitting here talking, like the notifications, I'm looking at them, going, holy shit, it's crazy. So wonderful. But we are connected to the blacklist, we're connected to Recover Out Loud, we're connected to F Around and Find Out, we're connected to Trappist Testimonies, we're connected to Sonja, we're connected to Jamie, we're gonna... The list goes on and on and on and hard knocks and... All that, right? Of all of those places...

Lisa (01:05:33.134)
All the sponsors, right? All the sponsors.

Chuck LaFLange (01:05:37.802)
I don't give a shit where you are in the world. We can find your resources, right? And we could, because of this amazing, you know, I compared it in, I don't know if it was a poster, I think it was maybe my next vlog post. Remember back in health class when we were kids, well, if you slept with one person, you slept with everybody, and that like, it's this exponential growth about, you know.

Lisa (01:05:46.499)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:06:02.582)
I hate to compare these two things, but that is the same thing. By knowing us or listening to us, you are tapped into a community that goes so far beyond us. Right? It just like it never stops. Right? You know, there's this...

Lisa (01:06:02.755)
Yes.

Lisa (01:06:19.178)
not having like myself not being in recovery, something that I hear and I feel like it's only recently that it's like really like the importance of it is just pronounced for me is recover out loud. Right? Because if you try to recover quietly, you don't connect to this community. The only way you connect to this vast community of people that are available and helpful.

Chuck LaFLange (01:06:35.346)
Oh yeah, hey, right.

Chuck LaFLange (01:06:42.457)
No.

Lisa (01:06:47.846)
is if you're loud, you know, whether it's selfish. And I think it's always like, I think when you recover out loud, you help others, and you help yourself, you know, because there's this huge community. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:06:49.902)
Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (01:06:59.658)
100%. Look what it's done for me. Right? You know, there's no way. There is no way if I went got a job in a warehouse like I had planned to a year ago this month. That I'm sober right now. There's no way I guarantee it recovering out loud has saved my life. You know, and by extension hopefully made a difference in somebody else's as well. You know the odd person here and there so, you know.

Lisa (01:07:23.575)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:07:29.226)
Now, fuck yeah, good point, Lisa.

Lisa (01:07:31.498)
Yeah. One of the things that on the Black Ash podcast last night, one of the things and I can't remember the guy's name, who was the guy that had the child that was in the background?

Chuck LaFLange (01:07:43.198)
Oh, that's Casey Jordan from F around and recover. Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

Lisa (01:07:47.28)
Casey. So one of the things he said last night that also stood out to me was that he lives in a rural location. And so he was talking about just how important, you know, this, the community, the recovery community and the act the ability to access it virtually how much difference that's been or made for him.

And that's the thing is like, you know, even if you live in a small town and you don't want to go to an AA meeting, because you don't want all 3000 people in your town to know you're in recovery. Well, you know, so what? It's like, then go virtual. You know, like there's, you know, or, and I mean, there are people who live in such little communities that I don't even know if they have AA meetings or NA meetings or whatever. And it's like, now, thanks to technology, it's like you can tap into the hugest recovery community, no matter where you are.

Chuck LaFLange (01:08:25.955)
Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (01:08:37.99)
Hmm. Yeah, yeah. It's amazing. So please, everybody, continue to like, comment, share, help us grow the platform, help us spread the message. Every time you do any one of these things, you're getting me a little bit closer to living my best life. My best life is to continue making a humble living, spreading the message. The message is this. If you're an active addiction right now, today could be the day, today could be the day that you start a lifelong journey.

Lisa (01:08:41.746)
You know? Yep. Hm.

Chuck LaFLange (01:09:06.638)
Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call in detox, go to a meeting. Please do something. Just get it started. Cause it is so much better than the alternative. And if you have a loved one who's suffering, please, please reach out. Send them a text, let them know they're loved. Use the words.

Lisa (01:09:26.987)
You are love.

Chuck LaFLange (01:09:29.434)
That little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings them back.