210 - FLEETWOOD

Chuck LaFLange (00:01.974)
Hello everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds. Welcome to another episode of the Ashes to Awesome Podcast. I'm your host, Chuck LaFlange Joining you from Krabi, Thailand. Joining me halfway across the world in virtual studio is Fleetwood. How you doing today, Fleetwood?

Fleetwood (00:15.899)
I'm blessed brother, you know, here in South Carolina, Chuck, we also have the ocean, but we talk a little differently, you know, here in South Carolina than Thailand. So, you know, we got some similar features and landscape, but look, man, it's such a blessing to be with you. And I just want to thank you for taking time for me.

Chuck LaFLange (00:23.478)
Hahaha!

Chuck LaFLange (00:37.758)
Hey, what's the weather doing out there right now? North, or South Carolina, sorry, yeah.

Fleetwood (00:44.58)
Yeah, South Cac. Yeah, it's pretty good. I mean, it's 50s, you know, high 50s, no wind, no rain, no snow, a lot of fireworks. You know, we're probably going to see some lights in the sky, but it's pretty temperate, man. You know, I'm here in Columbia, which is the armpit of the state. And so we're going to be all right this winter. You know, summer is where we have to pray and go to church.

Chuck LaFLange (00:49.703)
Okay.

Chuck LaFLange (00:52.934)
Okay, okay. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:00.747)
Yeah.

Fleetwood (01:10.687)
because it'll sweat the devil out of you, for sure.

Chuck LaFLange (01:11.046)
Ooh. I tell you what, here man, more days than not, if I walk outside, the air hurts my face. Like it is so hot, you know, it's just like, oh my Lord. You know, so what I try and do, what I try and do now, and I slept for a while tonight, but I try and work from midnight to noon, so that through the hottest, because I only have air conditioning in my bedroom, right?

So for the hottest part of the day, I can take a nap and not feel guilty. It's right. You know, um, and it helps me keep on schedule with the all back home, right? In, in that part of the world. So, um, yeah, yeah. So, Hey, listen, we're talking. Oh, go ahead. No, no.

Fleetwood (01:42.256)
I'm going to go ahead and close the video.

Fleetwood (01:49.463)
And real quick, I'm sorry to cut you off Chuck, but for, I was going to say, for those who don't know, this is what recovery looks like. And here's what I mean by that is Chuck woke up at six in the morning to do, so it's six thirty South Carolina time, but for Chuck it's six a.m. And so, you know, that's recovery. You know, you got to do what it takes. And again, man, I'm just so grateful for you.

Chuck LaFLange (02:15.722)
on New Year's Day. That just occurred to me. Right, right? No kidding, man. No kidding. All right, bro. So, you know, we were talking before we were recording here and we got to establish some credibility. And so for people behind the curtain to the audience, about how we came across each other, or how I came across you.

Fleetwood (02:19.555)
On New Year's Day.

Chuck LaFLange (02:39.178)
your toilet testimony is what I've come to taking it, or calling it, right, your toilet testimony. Where I could not believe, and I sat and watched that entire thing the first time I came across it, which in a world of short attention span and social media, to actually sit and watch a video that was, what's about 15 minutes long, something like that, right? Oh, 25 minutes, okay, there you go.

Fleetwood (02:47.071)
Yeah.

Fleetwood (03:01.66)
about 25 minutes.

Chuck LaFLange (03:05.714)
You had me hooked so early on with the authenticity of what you were saying. It was hard to watch, but compelling at the same time. And folks, I'll put a link specific to that in the show notes outside of the rest of it. I'll make sure that so you can see that toilet testimony because it is powerful. And I guess I want to thank you for sharing that with the world.

Fleetwood (03:07.101)
Be five.

Fleetwood (03:11.567)
Well...

Chuck LaFLange (03:34.306)
Somebody said to me not long ago that vulnerability saves lives. And I think you're well on your way with that video to doing that, bro. I really do. Yeah. So thank you for sharing that. Um, so we're not going to play that video now. We got it. We got to establish how it is that we get to a point where you're making a toilet testimony. So why don't you give us kind of the reader's digest version of that? And, and, uh, we'll kind of go from there. How's that sound?

Fleetwood (03:59.143)
Well, yeah, I just want to say first and foremost, you know, I'm so humbled. You know, that video has been has been witnessed or viewed, you know, 1.1 million times. There's been thousands of comments, thousands of messages. And and to be quite honest with you, Chuck, it really restored my faith in humanity. I mean, it's just unbelievable to see the, you know, the how much it resonated, you know, with people on the Internet and just a little bit of a back story on that video.

Chuck LaFLange (04:09.848)
Yeah.

Fleetwood (04:29.663)
It's from 2019. And so at that point, man, I'm 28 years old. I had been to three treatment centers. I was about to get evicted. Things weren't going well as they tend to go with addiction. So my girlfriend at the time, who's now my wife, she really just pulled the camera out and said, hey, man, let's testify. I mean, let's share this so that you can see it. I mean, it really wasn't anything we planned to put on the internet. And so just for context purposes.

I was about 23 hours into withdrawal from methamphetamine and fentanyl. And I think for a lot of people witnessing the video, those who have done opioids especially, they're going, man, this is, you know, this is cap. You know, there's no way you could be 23 hours in. And the only thing that I would say is I think I had just enough meth and just enough fentanyl in my system for God to compel me to speak on it.

A couple of hours after that video, and we'll get a little bit more detailed as we go, I robbed my drug dealer and used. That's just what addiction does is right when you have some hope and some clarity, it kind of sneaks up on you. So yeah, that's in a nutshell, the events surrounding and precipitating that video.

Chuck LaFLange (05:39.062)
Yeah, man. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (05:45.272)
Wow.

No kidding, man. No kidding. Um, okay. I kind of forgot what I like to do before we get into your story into your testimony. The first time you remember getting messed up with intent. How old were you? What happened?

Fleetwood (06:03.919)
Yeah, I remember it clearly, which is maybe half the issue with addiction, but it was Oxycontin 80-milligram pill. And so I was born in 1990. So Chuck, I'm sure you can relate to this. We were the pill generation. And so I was 14 and I had smoked and I had drank and I heard of Oxycontin. I kind of knew what it was, but I didn't know what it was. And so my buddy's uncle had a prescription to 80-milligram pills. So he gave us a couple.

Chuck LaFLange (06:11.14)
Okay.

Chuck LaFLange (06:18.03)
Yeah.

Fleetwood (06:33.307)
My buddy took one, I took one. Chuck, I woke up 36 hours later and the first thing I said was, let's call your uncle back. Let's go see your uncle again because it was the first drug I took. And you know what resonated with me, Chuck? It wasn't the euphoria as much as the feeling of normalcy. I remember very clearly right when it hit me going, this must be how a normal person feels or this must be what life is supposed to be like.

Chuck LaFLange (06:54.466)
There it is.

Chuck LaFLange (06:59.586)
There it is, there it is. So, there's one I haven't heard before. So, with that said, were you self-aware enough at the time to understand what that feeling of normal, to really what that drug was doing for you, or was it just a feel-good thing?

Fleetwood (07:02.327)
And then I got high as Aladdin, which, you know, then I got super high, but that was that first feeling.

Fleetwood (07:23.735)
No, sir. No, at that time, I did not have the foresight or the or the hindsight to have an awareness of that. But when I look back on it, that was very much my sentiment was, you know, life is OK. You know, I hadn't really experienced that, you know, in my early teens and preteens. And that was the first moment I felt that life was OK. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (07:29.332)
Okay, okay.

Chuck LaFLange (07:36.774)
Okay, okay, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (07:45.638)
Normal. Okay, okay. And it's, so just, I ask that of all my guests, that exact same line of questionings, because I find it a very curious thing about that self-awareness. And it's about 70-30 to the way you just answered. So now you know where you've fallen that stat from my very limited anecdotal experience asking that question of people. About 30% of people be like, no, I knew. I knew exactly what it was doing for me and I was all in. And I sometimes I wonder about.

Fleetwood (08:05.096)
store.

Chuck LaFLange (08:15.07)
if that's a little bit of hindsight mixed in with that. But I find that it's a very interesting thing to do, right? So with that said, now let's continue on with kind of your story, where it went from there, you know, and how we end up in a place.

Fleetwood (08:22.653)
Yeah.

Fleetwood (08:30.215)
Yeah, I'll try to condense it just to keep it succinct so we can get to some more maybe consequential topics. But long story short, Chuck, I took Oxy at 14. I ended up becoming a dealer of Oxycodone 30s. We were getting them from Broward County in Florida when I first started at Clemson University. And then at age 19, I went into my first treatment. I stayed six days left, stayed sober for two years. This is gonna be an important point. I stayed sober for two years.

Chuck LaFLange (08:54.206)
Hmm

Fleetwood (08:59.151)
I did not engage in a program of recovery. And so that's a really important distinction. And then my second treatment, I was about 23, 24, stayed two weeks left. My third treatment. Yeah, well, what was happening Chuck is, I put myself around people places things. And so I'm going around people thinking I was good with hindsight realizing, I wanted to relapse.

Chuck LaFLange (09:04.322)
Yeah, it is.

Chuck LaFLange (09:09.226)
Yep. What brought you back into the life? What was your breaking point?

Fleetwood (09:26.427)
And I wasn't aware of my early signs and symptoms of relapse. And so that was kind of a common thread with me is, hey, I'm going back in the same neighborhoods, the same people, the same affiliates, not being aware that I definitely wanted to pick up, but I had no insight, you know, as at that point. And then the overarching 3000 foot issue was the drugs were getting better. And so, you know, the oxycodone 30s turned to heroin pretty quickly, you know, once they

Chuck LaFLange (09:50.082)
Hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (09:53.238)
Yep.

Fleetwood (09:56.067)
the system in Florida, they put a tracking system for prescriptions in Florida. So that stopped, the heroin came and then around 2016 or 17 in North Carolina, the fentanyl came. And so for me, you know, fast forward to that video, you know, right around that video, Chuck, I had been to three treatment centers. I didn't complete a single one of them. You know, I thought I knew what to do and so I kept discharging prematurely and I would get some sober time, but I wasn't doing the work, bro.

Chuck LaFLange (10:06.543)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Fleetwood (10:25.767)
I wasn't doing the true work, which is when the substances stop. And so, you know, I was 28. And at this point, you know, I filmed that video. And here's the power of addiction is, you know, a couple of weeks after that video, you know, I'm still using, right? So at this point, I'm shooting up a little bit, I'm smoking. And I'll tell you the day that I found God.

Chuck LaFLange (10:26.238)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (10:46.219)
Yep, yep, yep.

Chuck LaFLange (10:52.595)
Okay.

Fleetwood (10:55.451)
Super Bowl Sunday 2019. I'm in a park in Asheville, North Carolina, which is where I'm from. And it's called Carrier Park. And it's probably one or two o'clock, right before the game getting started. Parks full, kids running around. Everyone's having a fantastic day. And so I'm in my truck at this park. Now keep in mind, my truck has 5% tint. And so even the good Lord can't see me if he was up on my window. So

Chuck LaFLange (11:19.052)
Yeah.

Fleetwood (11:23.971)
I'm waiting on my fentanyl, you know, it comes, I take my keys out of the ignition and I load up my fentanyl on the tin foil, right? So right as I'm smoking, I remember clear as day, I'm going down the crease and right when I get about halfway down the crease, it's like somebody edited my life. And the next thing I know, Chuck, I'm looking up and all I see is blue. That's the very next recollection. And there's four faces.

Chuck LaFLange (11:48.981)
Oh.

Fleetwood (11:52.571)
looking down on me. And, you know, the really scary thing for me is I wasn't afraid. I was grateful and I was at peace because that first thought was, man, I crossed over. It's over. You know, I don't have to put my family through this. I don't have to keep suffering through this. And little did I know it was not over. It was just getting started. And so I picked myself up, you know, Chuck, I'm on the pavement and I started to realize these four faces are paramedics.

Chuck LaFLange (12:02.919)
Oh.

Chuck LaFLange (12:18.675)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (12:22.242)
Yeah.

Fleetwood (12:22.639)
I look to my left and here's how powerful God is. And define him as you will, but I'll talk about what it means to me. But I look over to my left, my truck is backed into a car and there's glass all on the pavement next to the driver's side window. There's a fire truck, there's an ambulance, and there's one or two cop cars. And so at this point, I'm going, okay, you know, I think I messed up.

Chuck LaFLange (12:31.933)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (12:50.199)
Uh oh. Yeah.

Fleetwood (12:52.295)
they take me to the ambulance and they take my blood. And I'm asking the paramedic, you know, what the hell happened, brother? Um, he said, look, man, we just got on scene, you know, apparently you had overdosed, you were, you were, um, unresponsive. And so he tests my blood. Um, and they, they put me in handcuffs for DWI under fentanyl at this point. And, and I'm sitting in handcuffs and keep in mind there's Chuck, there's 200 people, you know, standing in a circle, just

Chuck LaFLange (13:13.292)
Yeah.

Fleetwood (13:20.535)
I'll never forget the look on kids' faces. I mean, there's people looking at me like I'm a, you know, I'm Frankenstein or something like that. And I asked several bystanders, I said, what happened? And a couple of bystanders said, young man, you wrecked into a car. I said, I got that part. Once you wrecked into a car, apparently a gentleman came from the far side of the parking lot. I'm trying not to get emotional.

Chuck LaFLange (13:20.939)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (13:40.874)
Mm-hmm.

Fleetwood (13:48.519)
busted out my driver's side window, pulled me out of the truck, gave me CPR, called 911, stayed with me until the paramedic showed up. Apparently they administered two doses of Narcan, at which point I regained consciousness. And before I could meet this individual, he left the scene. And let's take a pause for a second. And so you're familiar with the world. You're familiar with opioids.

I want you to consider this for a second. Think of the likelihood in the middle of overdosing of taking your keys, cranking your vehicle, putting it in reverse, backing into a car, alerting the attention of people around you and a gentleman coming over and smashing your windshield out and waiting for the paramedics to show up on scene. And, you know, I like to say that God reveals himself in a way that you as an individual can understand. And for me, I was cynical.

I wasn't going to believe that there was something greater than myself until mathematically it was proven to me. And so, that day, Chuck, it led to my parents really kind of disowning me and not letting me on property. And there were so many circumstances that provided my sufficient desperation or my rock bottom that it precipitated my purpose and me becoming the person God needed me to be.

And so that's kind of what happened in a nutshell, shortly after I recorded that toilet testimony is God kind of put me in the corner and said, look, I've taken everything away from you and it hasn't been enough. I'm going to take your life. And if that's not enough for you, then I'm going to make you a martyr. And so that's kind of my whole story, you know. And then, you know, I go to my fourth treatment center, you know, a couple of weeks later after my parents wouldn't let me on property.

Chuck LaFLange (15:29.708)
Wow.

Chuck LaFLange (15:33.599)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (15:39.799)
Wow.

Chuck LaFLange (15:45.411)
Yeah.

Fleetwood (15:46.015)
And, you know, Chuck, I stayed there three months. I did not make one phone call. No one was going to pick up. The phone is the reality. And so I really was able to do the work of recovery. I had never done the work of recovery. I could get clean, but I couldn't create a life I didn't want to escape. And that was fundamental for me.

Chuck LaFLange (15:54.006)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (16:06.178)
Yeah, yeah, right.

No kidding, eh? Wow, man, that's powerful. That's so powerful. One of the first things I zone in on there is, you said when you woke up, you were thankful, not scared. Or grateful, not scared was your words, right? That whole thing, and I just had this conversation, I just explained this to somebody yesterday. There's a real, I made some time ago about turning your stories into thank yous. And...

Fleetwood (16:12.124)
Yeah.

Fleetwood (16:25.143)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (16:38.858)
how powerful that can be. So instead of, hey, I'm sorry I messed up again, because hey, our families have heard it, our loved ones have heard it. They know, they know when you are, they know when you're not. How about thank you for giving me another chance? So every time you wanna say sorry, you say thank you. And where that comes from, my friend, where that comes from, is being on the other side of that overdose so many times. And every, because I wasn't an opiate user, and you know, I was...

Fleetwood (17:00.095)
Sure.

Chuck LaFLange (17:07.762)
stimulants for my thing in a big crack, a sores rex, I called myself right so I was I was usually there when somebody went down and it was eight or nine times that I personally had to and I don't even know how many times I was present for it you know Narcan somebody every single time somebody wakes up first words out of their mouth are sorry every single time right and the last time it happened the last time I Narcan somebody

I said, no, this is wrong. Like, why aren't you thankful? And not because I need to thank you when somebody is contemplating their own mortality. No, I don't. But why is it that you feel compelled to say sorry instead of thank you when somebody saves your life? Right? That to me is a messed up mind. That is a sick, sick human. And where the beginning of turn your sorries into thank yous came from for me, right? And now it's, now, so just when you said that, I was like, ah.

Fleetwood (17:43.231)
for.

Chuck LaFLange (18:01.782)
But the difference, the difference there, right? You know.

Fleetwood (18:03.335)
Yeah. And just to clarify, 100%, I mean, it's your approach, but just to clarify, Chuck, and this is the power of the thinking, right? We say it's stinking thinking is what we call it. But I had peace because I thought I had died. You know, that was my first. Yeah. So for me, it was like, ah, you know, it's over. I don't have to give my family false hope. I don't have to build them up just to break them down. I mean, they're

Chuck LaFLange (18:10.002)
Yeah. Yeah, this. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (18:18.643)
I caught that too. I did catch that. But yeah, right. Yeah.

Hehehehe, ah.

Fleetwood (18:30.951)
there was this feeling of, you know what, man, you know, it's over. You know, I don't have to, you know, there's some things worse than death. And I think false hope is certainly in that category. And so, it took me quite a while to have your approach to say, hey, look, you know, you got two options. Things happen to you, things happen for you. And for several months, you know, arguably a year, Chuck, you know, that whole episode in the park was something that happened to me.

Chuck LaFLange (18:31.133)
Oh

Chuck LaFLange (18:52.009)
Mm-hmm.

Fleetwood (18:58.987)
know, I wanted to be a victim. It was safe to be a victim. And I had to make a decision that, you know, maybe God, and this, I'm gonna keep referring to God, I don't know a better word for it, but, you know, maybe God is trying to pave a path to purpose from my past. And that's something we have to meet him 50-50 on that discussion. But, you know, it's still hard, you know, I'm four and a half years in this thing and...

Chuck LaFLange (19:09.394)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (19:15.839)
Okay.

Chuck LaFLange (19:20.01)
Yeah, we do.

Fleetwood (19:27.503)
And I look back at that day and it still feels like a dream. You know, it's still really, I'll tell you one other quick thing about that day. Here's how cynical we as addicts are. You know, I told my mother when I got out of treatment what had happened that day and she's a woman of faith, you know, probably the most tremendous example of faith that I've ever known personally. And she looked at me with no hesitation and said, Lane, that's your guardian angel. And me being who I am, I said, nope.

Chuck LaFLange (19:33.173)
No kidding, eh?

Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (19:44.728)
Yeah.

Fleetwood (19:56.399)
I said, that's just a guy, you know, I can prove it. And so Chuck, I spent, I dedicated months trying to find this gentleman. I made Facebook posts. I sponsored advertisements on Facebook posts with my picture, with my story, looking for this guy. I called the police department. I called my arrest an officer. And to this day, I have not located that gentleman who helped save my life. And you know, is it an angel? Is it?

Chuck LaFLange (20:17.422)
Wow.

Fleetwood (20:24.187)
Was it just a guy? Was it another addict? You know, I think at this point, it's not as important to me to know who it was. All I know is God was working through this individual. And so he gave me another chance and he said, I Fleetwood, I Lane, you know, what you gonna do with it?

Chuck LaFLange (20:27.606)
Who knows, right? Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (20:41.534)
No kidding, no kidding. Wow, man. Wow. So today you got a couple things going on. You got your music happening, which Wow, right? The toilet testimony led me down that rabbit hole. As I told you my first message, I just say, Oh, here goes right. Some great stuff you're doing that way. And you've referred to here.

Fleetwood (20:46.121)
Yeah.

Fleetwood (21:00.808)
for sure.

Chuck LaFLange (21:05.134)
as clinicians, as you've made some references, as we've been speaking previous to recording about what you're doing, obviously you're working or you're at some sort of treatment facility. So what happens for, okay, your music, your music was happening while you were using, I'm guessing, like during your using days, is that correct? Yeah. Okay, you know what, let's talk about that. Let's talk about that. How's your music changed?

Fleetwood (21:18.931)
Yeah.

Fleetwood (21:26.619)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So it's, yeah, so, so I'll try to keep it succinct. Yeah, I was going to say, you know, I'll talk your ear off and then I'll talk your other one off. So I'll try to keep it, you know, succinct. But, you know, the music thing was like drugs for me. You know, it was, it was, it was a way for me to cope with the world. And so, you know, I started in about 2014 with productions, you know, me and my brother were trying to produce and start a label. And then it

Chuck LaFLange (21:35.139)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (21:38.995)
Hehe

Fleetwood (21:56.047)
it kind of evolved to us, you know, being in front of the camera and us doing the music and us producing our own music and promoting our own image and our own music. And so you can see on my channels, you know, especially on YouTube, when I was an addict, and then when I got clean, the messages are definitely different. And, you know, it's always been a dream to have a label. I definitely didn't plan on necessarily being in front of the camera. But you know,

Chuck LaFLange (21:58.222)
Okay.

Fleetwood (22:22.887)
God prepares us for these things and compels us to testify. And I think music is definitely a powerful avenue for that.

Chuck LaFLange (22:30.366)
It is. It is. OK, so where are you now? What's going on? What's what's happening? Why are you a clinician now? What's what's up?

Fleetwood (22:44.432)
Well, you know, for those of us who went into treatment, you know, there's always a group of people that, you know, tell you that you should do this as a job, right? So I remember being in treatment and people going, man, you thought about being a counselor and excuse my language, but I said, fuck no. There's no way I'm coming back into these places. I don't care what circumstances. And what happened is, you know, my first master's degree was in health administration.

Chuck LaFLange (22:56.674)
I

Chuck LaFLange (23:00.526)
Hahaha!

Fleetwood (23:12.055)
And so for me, I was working a pretty good job. I had a career. I had about two years of recovery after going to that fourth and final treatment center. And what I noticed, Chuck, and this is really important for everyone who's a chronic relapser, is I really learned something every episode, every time I slipped, every treatment center. I learned a little nugget about me. And so I'm sitting there two years into recovery and I'm starting to realize...

Chuck LaFLange (23:19.34)
Okay.

Fleetwood (23:40.595)
that I'm in a job where I'm having to make concessions about my story and my testimony. You know, I've got coworkers asking me to come out for a drink or come out for a beer and I'm lying to them, you know, telling them that I'm, you know, I'm busy or I'm doing this, you know, because I felt if they know I'm in recovery, it might not benefit my career in that field. And I'll never forget, I'm sitting in my office. Yeah, yeah, stigma and I'm sitting in my office.

Chuck LaFLange (23:52.643)
Oh, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (24:01.742)
stigma, right? Yeah, yeah.

Fleetwood (24:08.919)
pretty good view, you know, fourth floor. And I'll never forget, I'm looking out my window one day and I see kids out there playing. And, you know, it's hard to put into words but I just watched them play and they were so carefree and they were so confident with what they were doing. It's like these kids are where they should be. You know, that's the best way I could put it. And for me, I didn't have that feeling, you know. I knew I was doing better, but there was this,

Chuck LaFLange (24:28.535)
Mm-hmm.

Fleetwood (24:39.528)
empty void inside of me that was pushing me out of that office. And so, long story short, I quit. And this is an important testimony for those who are in early recovery. My parents did not necessarily like that. People in my circle did not necessarily agree with that because it was my first real career. And so, I definitely didn't get a ton of support.

you know, with opting out of that career. But you know, what's at stake is my life and my health. And I could feel that I was going to drink a beer and then eventually maybe smoke a blunt, you know, and then six, eight, 10, 12 months later, I might look up and I'm smoking fentanyl again. You know, that's just how the beast manifests. So long story short, man, I took a leap of faith and I moved states. You know, I came to Columbia from North Carolina. My wife, um, got a job at the hospital and, uh,

Chuck LaFLange (25:20.135)
Yeah. Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (25:29.26)
Okay.

Fleetwood (25:33.551)
and I saw a job posting for a place called Waypoint Recovery Center. And here really was my approach. You know, I'm two years in and I'm like, you Chuck, I hear all these things in the rooms, you know, and for me it was like, you know, I've never really put them fully into practice. And so I wrote a cover letter to Waypoint Recovery Center. My first paragraph here is everything I have ever done wrong, literally.

Chuck LaFLange (25:38.254)
Okay.

Fleetwood (26:00.967)
You know, it was really an admission of guilt more than a cover letter. But, you know, I've been arrested. I've lied. I've cheated. I've stolen. I've done these things. My family, that's my first paragraph to the employer. My second paragraph, Chuck, here's why I am today. And it was just a very candid assessment of, of look, you know, here's why I am today. And then my third and final paragraph was my one year plan, my three year plan and my five year plan with their organization. I didn't think it was going to work.

Chuck LaFLange (26:01.25)
Hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (26:11.916)
No kidding.

Yeah.

Fleetwood (26:28.735)
But I needed to really see if these principles worked in practice. And I'll be damned if the next day the director called me and said, I want to hear your story. So it wasn't necessarily, you know, you're hired. It was, hey, I want to hear your story. And so I go there the next couple of days or two days later and I tell her my story. I'll never forget. She looks at me and goes, all right. She said, I got a job, but you ain't gonna want it.

Chuck LaFLange (26:34.83)
Okay.

Yeah.

Fleetwood (26:55.095)
And I think she was testing me. I said, well, I'm unemployed. So, try me. I have very little revenue or money. So she said, here's the deal. I have a master's degree, Chuck. Keep in mind, I got a master's at this point. She goes, I got a job for you as a tech. She says, you're going to be counting beans. You're going to be checking in residents on a tablet. You're probably going to make 12 bucks an hour. But if you do this job and you commit to this job, when a counseling position comes available...

Chuck LaFLange (26:55.756)
Oh.

Fleetwood (27:23.867)
I'll let you slide into it. And so I did it. And you know, when we talk about recovery, a lot of this stuff is blooming where you're planted. You know, and for me, the disease for me, Chuck, was always the disease of more. It was initially a disease of pain, but it quickly turned into a disease of more. You know, I'll be happy when I move here. I'll be content when I get this job. I'll finally have peace when I make X amount of money.

Chuck LaFLange (27:28.342)
Nice, nice.

Chuck LaFLange (27:39.147)
Yeah, man.

Fleetwood (27:49.767)
And so it was a destination addiction. So for me, I had to bloom where I was planted for the first time in my life. And certainly in my recovery, I had to say, you know what? I gotta humble myself and be the best tech I can be. Here's kind of another Godwink moment. Fast forward a couple months on that job, bro. Keep in mind, I'm driving 50 minutes to this job, 50 minutes back. So, you know, I'm really not making...

Chuck LaFLange (27:56.748)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (28:12.49)
Wow. She say your waves is barely covering the fuel right now.

Fleetwood (28:18.979)
Exactly. So, I'm really not making money. And so, I remember very clearly, I called my father and I said, Dad, look, man, you know, I don't think I can continue doing this. I mean, I love it. I think it suits my abilities and my skills and some of my anecdotal experience, but I got to find something more local. And he just said, hey, look, son, you know, give it two more weeks, give it a couple more weeks. I'll be darned if, I mean, I'm telling you, man, God has really been in control of my ship.

for, you know, ever since I fully committed. A couple of weeks later, after that phone call, a counselor comes in at five in the morning, packs her stuff up, unannounced, comes in 5 a.m., packs her office up by 6 30. She's out the door. And there was no announcement. And so she tells my director, as she's on the interstate, hey, you know, thanks for the opportunity. I'm gone. I quit. You know, hasta luego.

Chuck LaFLange (29:15.265)
Yep.

Fleetwood (29:16.603)
And my director emails me that day and says, congratulations, you're a counselor. And it's been such a blessing. There's been a lot of growing pains, certainly with it. But I think the beauty of addiction, Chuck, is nobody can put me through what I put myself through. And so there's been an acceptance of me versus me. Right? So it's like, I'm stressed with this job.

Chuck LaFLange (29:37.395)
And that's a true thing. Yeah, yeah.

Fleetwood (29:44.347)
but it pales in comparison to what I have put myself through. And so, you know, that's, that's where I'm at today. So I've been at this facility for about two and a half going on three years and, and it's such a blessing.

Chuck LaFLange (29:48.862)
Yeah. Yeah, right. That's

Chuck LaFLange (29:57.894)
Okay, okay. Wow, wow. That so there's a thing, Mike at the Yachter Center here in Thailand, he was telling me about the JCs, they call them the residents that, oh, I'm going to be a counselor, you know, basically acting like a counselor when you first get there, which I think is funny, because I think I was guilty of that in I never went to treatment or rehab, I went to detox three times.

Fleetwood (30:16.787)
Exactly.

Chuck LaFLange (30:24.694)
But I think I was pretty guilty of that myself, right? And I find that interesting. So whenever I hear somebody's working in a treatment center, I like to touch on that for a second. And I imagine, I don't think that changes from national or state borders or whatever, even county borders, it wouldn't change, right? But is that an interesting thing? Does that happen quite a bit where you're at? Yeah, yeah.

Fleetwood (30:48.727)
Well, you know, one thing we describe with our resonance is ego. What is it? And I think for some people, their definition is self-importance. But what I think people fail to understand is sometimes it's self And what I mean by that is sometimes ego is not that I'm better than this other guy. Ego can be, you know, I can do things differently than this other guy. And for me, Chuck, you know, man, oh man, I suffered from that tremendously.

You know, I always had good education. You know, I could do school. I couldn't manage money or relationships, but I could do school. And so for me, ego was, you know, I don't have to do it the way these people do it. And that was quite honestly, my internal monologue is look, you know, they need 90 and 90, you know, I'll go to a meeting or two, you know, they need outpatient programming and I got school, you know, I can just go back to class. And so for me, my ego was, was I'm different, not necessarily that I'm better.

Chuck LaFLange (31:15.499)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (31:37.612)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (31:43.734)
Yeah.

Fleetwood (31:44.947)
But, you know, I can do things my way, I can do things differently, and how did that work out? And so that was my journey with ego, certainly.

Chuck LaFLange (31:50.458)
Hahaha

Chuck LaFLange (31:54.026)
No kidding, no kidding. So ego's a funny thing. Okay, to do what I do, to do what you do with the music, these are like, there's some ego in there, there has to be, right? And that's just the reality of it. But it doesn't have to be toxic ego, right? It can be positive. It's something I kind of joke about. Every content creator, and whether or not you consider yourself a content creator, because you make music, I would say that yes you are, by my definition of it, anyway.

You have to have some ego in there. But that ego doesn't have to be toxic the way it has been in our past, right? It can lead to some really positive stuff spreading the message, right? So.

Fleetwood (32:23.144)
Yeah.

Fleetwood (32:36.007)
Yeah, no question. And so, you know, this is important because we often discuss this with our residents is, you know, I'm really Chuck, and you're probably finding this out a year and a half in recovery. You know, I really don't feel that different than the guy who was smoking fentanyl and the guy who was shooting up dog food. You know, I don't feel.

as differently as people probably expect me to feel. And so what I mean by that is, dude, I'm still selfish. I can still be cynical. I can still be narcissistic. I had someone tell me, I'm not the character in everybody else's movie. I'm not the main character in everybody else's movie. So, I'm still the same person, but I can manage these things better. And so the term that we use is ethical egoism. And the idea is this,

Chuck LaFLange (33:18.737)
Yeah.

Fleetwood (33:27.367)
I don't help the residents simply to help the residents. I help the residents because I want to get some sleep when my head hits the pillow. I help the residents because I want to feel confident. So there's a symbiotic relationship between service and creating more opportunities for me. And that's just the reality of it. And so what I tell the residents is, look, you won't be who you are. Your personality is not gonna fundamentally shift, but your principles.

Chuck LaFLange (33:38.688)
Yeah, man.

Fleetwood (33:56.595)
can fundamentally shift. And so that was the difference for me. I'm still who I am and who I've always been, but I had to shift my principles and I have to make sure my actions line up with my principles. And that's not easy to do. And I think when you look at some of the success rates that aren't good with addiction, I think that's a huge crux is that people go into it with unrealistic expectations.

Chuck LaFLange (33:58.488)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (34:12.856)
No.

Chuck LaFLange (34:19.8)
Yeah.

Fleetwood (34:26.223)
I think for me, I was like, all right, bro, I'm gonna go to treatment. I'm gonna come out. I'm gonna be a different guy. And I think what was really disorienting for me is really I'm going to treatment, coming out and I'm more of the same guy. And now I don't have substances to use. And so, you know, so, you know, that's the work is when the substances stop, the self work starts, the recovery starts. And so for me, I just wasn't ready for that.

Chuck LaFLange (34:33.05)
Hahaha.

Chuck LaFLange (34:39.612)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (34:51.22)
Yeah.

Fleetwood (34:54.743)
for 14 years, you know, from 14 to 28, I just wasn't ready to really put in the work.

Chuck LaFLange (35:03.722)
kidding, I'm kidding. There's so much to talk about here. There really is. therapy. So therapy, where do you stand on therapy when it comes to comes to recovery? And what are your thoughts on that?

Fleetwood (35:13.299)
story.

Fleetwood (35:26.443)
Well, I'll say this, we're a 30-day facility. And so I'm pretty upfront with the residents. We don't have much time. And I don't want you guys to come out here thinking you're going to be cured or fixed. The reality is you're going to come out of our program probably feeling in some ways a little bit worse off than when you came in, just because you're detoxed, you're identifying your trauma, you're identifying your mental health, you're stable, but you're starting to be cognizant of your program.

you know, and sometimes that can be a bitter pill to swallow. So for me, I'll be honest, Chuck, a lot of my works with the family and what we tell and teach the family is, you know, the D word. You hear this a lot. Addiction is a disease. Addiction is a disease. And for some people, they can't accept it. They either can't or they won't. And so the best way I describe it to families is think of addiction as a learning disorder. And what I mean by that is a healthy person.

Chuck LaFLange (35:55.67)
Yep.

Fleetwood (36:24.435)
can look at a drug, right? Look at heroin, cocaine, meth, and say, okay, that would be fun, right? That would be a great time. But you know what, Lane? I have to be at work at three o'clock. I have to see my kids at five o'clock. I have to transport people later tonight. You know, they can make a rational decision that this drug is going to interfere with my ability to be the person I need to be and that my family needs me to be. Addicts don't have that. And so an addict looks at a situation and goes, oh, no.

Chuck LaFLange (36:30.651)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (36:43.722)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (36:50.314)
Yeah. Yep.

Fleetwood (36:53.283)
I have to be at Christmas at five o'clock. An addict is so uncomfortable with who they are and with the world around them that drug is an opportunity to be a better father, to be a better husband, to be a better brother, to be a better servant. And that's the cognitive distortion. And so for family, they're coming into this going, does my son not love me? Does my husband not love me? And I'm going, no, no. It's the opposite. Your husband is so desperate.

Chuck LaFLange (36:55.554)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (37:09.043)
Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (37:16.433)
Oh, breaks my heart.

Fleetwood (37:23.155)
to be available and to love you, but he can't give what he doesn't have. And so he's trying to give love. He doesn't have self-love. And so the drug to an addict is an opportunity to be a better husband or to be a better person or a more available or more comfortable person. And then unfortunately, things turn pretty quickly. You know, that drug takes a hold of you. And really the only way to change the way you approach the substance from the addict perspective is to touch the stove and get burnt.

Chuck LaFLange (37:24.055)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (37:36.842)
Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (37:44.427)
Yeah, they do.

Fleetwood (37:53.251)
And for some people, I'll be damned, they burn every finger, you know, before they start to think about things a little bit differently. But that's what we teach in terms of the family is look, guys, you didn't cause it, you can't cure it and you can't control it. And then from an addict perspective, you know, with a 30-day program, Chuck, we don't engage in necessarily therapy, we do some cognitive behavioral techniques, but we're really kind of peeling their onion.

Chuck LaFLange (37:53.969)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (38:01.182)
Not kidding, eh?

Fleetwood (38:22.011)
and saying, all right, what is the core? Why are you using? You know, is it boredom? Well, boredom is maybe peace with the absence of gratitude. So you might not be bored, you might lack gratitude. You know, is it mental health? Is it trauma? Is it environmental factors? And so what we do is we peel their onion, we try to get them to see what they need to see, and then we give them a couple of tools.

Chuck LaFLange (38:35.723)
Yeah.

Fleetwood (38:49.115)
you know, to manage their environment, to manage their anxiety, to manage the way they think. And then we get them a plan. You know, we always try to get them to the next facility or the next phase or an outpatient or sober living. And in that respect, you know, we do individual therapy, we do classes, we do groups. And so we keep them moving, you know, day in and day out. But but I'm pretty upfront that, you know, look, guys, this is step one, a huge step, the most important step. But this is step one.

Chuck LaFLange (39:02.538)
something right yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (39:15.074)
No kidding.

Fleetwood (39:18.767)
in a lifestyle modification and a lifestyle change.

Chuck LaFLange (39:23.166)
Absolutely, absolutely. I'm going to take this moment to do a plug because you just kind of set it up for me. Well, I set it up and you set it up, but I really wasn't going there with it. Yachter Center is one of my sponsors. They're now located in Krabi, Thailand. They were in Phuket, Thailand and that's what brought me here. I got to tell you man, they're the only kind, they're their only center like themselves in the entire world. They focus on trauma 100%.

It's not just for addiction, but his background, you know, he's been clean for 20 years now, kind of lends itself to the addiction side of things. Therapies, cognitive behavioral therapy, internal family systems therapy, EMDR, which I don't know if you have any experience or exposure to EMDR. For those that don't know, it's eye movement desensitization reprocessing, has...

Fleetwood (40:15.323)
Absolutely.

Chuck LaFLange (40:19.094)
completely changed my life. But it's not just about traveling to Thailand to do therapy. It's this holistic approach of mindfulness, meditation. There's yoga, Tai Chi, ice baths, ice baths or something else. I don't know if you've ever tried one of those, man, but my first one was like the longest minute of my life. And by the time I left, I was looking forward to a five minute one. You do, eh? They are just, oh man. I suffer with ADHD in...

Fleetwood (40:39.802)
every week.

Fleetwood (40:46.034)
Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (40:47.71)
in like extreme ADHD. I self-medicated for 25 years and I didn't even know I had it, right, until I got sober. An ice bath for me was the first thing I'd ever seen that I could honestly reset my brain, right, because you could, because you could just, if you're going to get through a minute, two, three, four, five, you have to just wipe all the noise away and focus on your breath. Otherwise you're not going to make it, right? You're going to jump out of that thing, right?

Fleetwood (41:05.018)
Mm.

Fleetwood (41:17.203)
Right? Huh.

Chuck LaFLange (41:17.318)
So but his whole his whole approach it feels like it's a shotgun of stuff happening when you get there Like it's not in a negative way, but it's just like wow There's a lot going on and I was about three weeks in before I discovered the genius of what he was doing There's a formula where he uses what all three therapies to feed into each other and it's like it's absolutely transformative and Relative to

treatment centers back home and this is a place where you go when you have some stability. You don't, you're not clean for a day and you walk into the Otter Center. You've got some stability, you're working on healing as opposed to white-knuckling it, right? Once you're at that place...

Chuck LaFLange (42:02.362)
he took my worst traumas stuff, like EMDR for example, I had to write down, just write down the name. I never had to tell him about it. I never had to talk about it out loud. I'd write it down, give it a name and picture it. It's really simplified. There's a much more of a process than that. When I wrote it down, it was, I melted down. I completely lost, like I melted down. The trauma was so intense. It was a really, really big T trauma.

Fleetwood (42:19.603)
Hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (42:32.506)
And 20 minutes later, I was able to talk about it in a matter of fact way and started dressing how that has impacted my life in you know Just the most incredible way. I can't say enough good things about the ultra center So check them out guys if uh, if you're at a place in your recovery Families as well. Most of our program is dedicated to families because let's face it people in active addiction aren't tuning into a podcast, right?

Not typically anyway, but who is their families. So check it out guys. It's well worth it But there's a long-winded plug, but you know That's uh, I just believe in it so much

Fleetwood (43:15.512)
And Chuck, real quick, you know, my finder's fee on this stuff is about 10%. So just make sure that gets wired or mailed or, you know, however you want to do it.

Fleetwood (43:29.891)
Yeah, I accept post dated third party checks. But. Exactly.

Chuck LaFLange (43:36.484)
I'm good. Yeah. You know, Mike offered me the scholarship and here's, here's who Mike is, bro. He offered me that scholarship while I was there. I was doing some vlogging.

But at no point as a center, did he share anything that I did? Did he, like he refused to capitalize on my treatment. He just refused to. Like, so, and you know, they're trying to build their own brand. They've only been open for two years, right? But he's just like, no man, this is about you. I am not going to gain. I'm not even gonna be perceived to having gained anything from you. This is, I just want to help you heal. And it was just, oh man, like it's, and, and.

Fleetwood (44:14.343)
Mm.

Chuck LaFLange (44:18.23)
They have started a healing journey for me because it's long from over. The tools that they gave me when I walked out the door, you know, there's so much more that they've given me that I can continue to work with, but I can't say enough good things about it. Right. So yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But anyway, anyway.

Fleetwood (44:34.599)
I'll say this real quick, Chuck. When we look at addiction, we look at the co-occurring disorders, which is really a lot. I mean, it could be anxiety, depression, bipolar, and PTSD. And the statistics are pretty overwhelming. 80% of addicts on average, 80% have a co-occurring disorder. And so when we say this is a disease of pain and not of substance, the statistics bear that out.

Chuck LaFLange (44:58.358)
Yep. Yeah, they sure do. They sure do, right? And I think, you know, one of my guests, and a quite well-known doctor a few months ago, said he believes that we are very short time away from addiction even being talked about separately than mental health. You know, and I hope he's right. I hope he's right. I hope that it's, you know, that the two aren't separate anymore. I hope that they are together, right? Because once we can start treating it the way that it is, and I...

It almost sounds cliche to use that moral failing term. But I, here it is, I'll say it. The real moral failing is treating people with addiction like they have a moral failing, right? To me, that's where we go wrong, right? If we could just treat it for what it is and that is a disease, then I think the world would be in a much better place, right?

Fleetwood (45:51.583)
Well, and I'll kind of, you know, I don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole, but the reality, Chuck, is when you look at our penal system, it really lends itself to overincarceration. You know, we've got 5% of the world's population and like 25% of the world's incarcerated population. So I think the unfortunate part is a lot of mental health issues, but certainly addiction has been punitive, has been a punitive approach. You know.

Chuck LaFLange (46:05.218)
Hmm.

Fleetwood (46:20.031)
And so, I don't think there's evil people in the system, but I think sometimes the system can lend itself to revenue. And I think the reality is that we're having to change the way we look at things because with the advent of fentanyl, you know, the taxpayer is paying out billions in emergency services and government subsidized treatment. And so, you know, the painful irony is things have gotten so bad that even the government...

all they care about is the bottom line, right, is money. Even the government's having to come in and saying, we've got to change our approach to addiction because we're spending so much on reactive or reactionary services, then how do we become more preventative? And that's why these needle exchanges come about. And, you know, up in Canada, you guys are a little bit ahead of the curve with government-funded, you know, IV spots and places you can go shoot up with a clean needle and

Chuck LaFLange (46:51.35)
Yeah.

Fleetwood (47:17.651)
And, you know, we're going to have to evaluate these approaches from a from a compassionate standpoint, but the government is coming from a fiscal or financial standpoint. And so that's, you know, what my generation is going to have to really deal with and legislate. You know.

Chuck LaFLange (47:17.994)
Yeah, supervised consumption sites.

Chuck LaFLange (47:33.194)
Well, and you can speak to that. There is studies done, and I can't quote the name of the paper, but my weekend co-host is Dr. Lisa. She's a psychiatrist who specializes in addiction up in Calgary. She is a soul that you have to watch to believe, man. She's amazing. She's never suffered an addiction herself, but her brother has for a very long time. She quit her job as an engineer in the oil field to go back to school, become a psychiatrist, to further understand her mother's struggle. That's who she is. She's just, I love Lisa.

Fleetwood (47:50.739)
Mmm.

Fleetwood (48:03.924)
Mmm. Wow.

Chuck LaFLange (48:05.192)
She's quoted a few studies about, I believe it's one to six or one to eight dollars. For every dollar you spend on treatment, you save six or eight dollars in the end game, between prisons, especially in prisons. That's where most of the money goes, right? When you're dealing with addiction, looking at it through the numbers, most of it goes into prison, right? And now, of course,

with fentanyl, the worst I can, fentanyl. You've got the emergency services, the deaths, the hospitalizations and all that. Deaths are not cheap for people that think that, say those horrible toxic things, even you guys are wrong. It's not, it's, when a fentanyl addict dies, it's a very expensive thing. So if you're the type of person to say something so evil.

as you know the death is you know whatever you're wrong so right you know yeah

Fleetwood (49:04.415)
Well, and I'll give some statistics. I actually did Jared's podcast last night and he mentioned you. I know you guys are pretty good friends. I love him. He's a good guy. And so I mentioned these statistics. I'll mention them with you too. Last year, 100,916 people died from drug intoxication. So these are people who took a drug and died.

Chuck LaFLange (49:10.666)
Yeah, I know. Jared's my man, man. He's my people. Yeah, I love Jared.

Fleetwood (49:30.955)
not people behind the wheel or suicides or, you know, that's not even a part of the equation. So, 75,000, roughly, were opioids. And an overwhelming percentage of that was fentanyl. And so, here's a reference point. World War I, the United States lost 116,000 people in World War I. And so, we're facing World War I level casualties on an annual basis.

Chuck LaFLange (49:34.524)
Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (49:40.162)
Yep.

Fleetwood (49:58.863)
And so what frustrates us in the industry, I had to call it the industry of addiction, where is the media coverage on fentanyl? Where is the government interference and intervention on fentanyl? I'll hear a lot about COVID for legitimate reasons, of course, but from my vantage point, fentanyl is doing more damage and has been doing more damage on an annual basis than COVID could ever dream of doing, at least up until this point.

Chuck LaFLange (49:59.204)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (50:23.338)
Without a shadow of a doubt. In British Columbia, it's a leading cause of death in British Columbia right now, which is of course on our West Coast. It's a leading cause of death, right? Every day, and here's a stat, every day between Canada and the United States, a 747 falls out of the sky. Imagine, just imagine if it was anything else.

Fleetwood (50:28.492)
It's frustrating, you know.

Fleetwood (50:40.19)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (50:53.23)
When you put that in perspective, if it was anything else that was causing this kind of death, the world would come to a halt. And we know this because it recently did. So that's what's wrong with the world right there, folks. Yeah, yeah, right.

Fleetwood (51:07.491)
Absolutely. Well, and you know, statistics, you know how statistics are, you can fudge them and manipulate them. But there were some studies that suggested that the leading cause of death in the United States for people 18 to 45 is fentanyl. And so, you know, AA is big on, you know, the opposite of addiction is connection. Well, look at what COVID did. You know, it isolated people, it disconnected people.

Chuck LaFLange (51:16.394)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (51:22.902)
Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (51:32.639)
Yeah.

Fleetwood (51:35.651)
And so that's kind of the hidden statistic with these overdoses is COVID. You know, COVID pulled people out of their networks, out of the rooms, away from people. And so those statistics are further exacerbated by COVID. You know, it's frustrating. You know, a lot of this fentanyl is coming from China through the dark web or through the cartels of Mexico. And I just don't see the same response.

Chuck LaFLange (51:40.343)
without a doubt.

Chuck LaFLange (51:48.879)
Without a doubt.

Fleetwood (52:03.027)
from our government on a local, state, or federal level. I see some coverage about it occasionally, but there doesn't seem to be much action on a legislative level. And I know Narcan has certainly been a huge tool, but we got to get more preventative. And I think the best approach is education. I think you have to start at a very young age and really start getting into the school system. And I remember in the United States, we had a dare.

Chuck LaFLange (52:24.494)
I thought it dope.

Fleetwood (52:32.019)
D.A.R.E. camp. You know, this is when I was a child and they would bring out the car that was wrecked by the drunk driver. You know, it didn't work. I don't think they had the right approach necessarily, but their intentions were good. Exactly.

Chuck LaFLange (52:35.887)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, nope. No, no, they didn't. That's that's part of the just say no days, right? You know, yeah, that was part of the just say no days. It came from a good place, but it wasn't. It's now it doesn't work. The challenge, though, brother, the just say no thing. Back then, you could experiment with drugs, and these days, the reality is you can't. So.

just say no is almost back. It almost has to be back, right? But maybe it's a different kind of education, I don't know, but with everything being cut the way it is, we can't fool around.

Fleetwood (53:13.935)
I think that the messaging just wasn't authentic. I think that was one of the issues is, we have to have an authentic discussion. The problem with drugs is they're awesome and they work and they're the greatest coping skill on the planet. So what we have to see in recovery is, are you gonna create or find a life that you don't wanna escape? Are you gonna find something better than the drug? Are you gonna create a life that's better?

Chuck LaFLange (53:27.083)
Yeah, they are.

Fleetwood (53:37.927)
than the escape that a substance provides. And I think, you know, Dair Camp certainly didn't do that. You know, it was kind of so one-sided that people were curious more so than educated.

Chuck LaFLange (53:38.538)
100.

Chuck LaFLange (53:43.252)
Oh.

Chuck LaFLange (53:48.818)
I've had, I don't know, every single time that's come up on my show, people have said, yeah, well that just made me more curious, right? Because yeah, I was just, yeah, risk takers and all that stuff as we are as kids, right? So yeah, no. Hey listen, we've been going at it for an hour here, man. And you know what, I'd like to thank you for coming on the show. That does bring us to my favorite part of the show, and that is the daily gratitudes. So what you got for us today?

Fleetwood (54:01.339)
Yeah, absolutely.

Fleetwood (54:15.496)
Yeah, well, Chuck, I'll start with you, brother. You know, as I said at the beginning of the episode, it's, you know, seven, I guess, now at 7 a.m., you know, over where you're at. So I'm just grateful for an opportunity to testify and to connect and to share fellowship with you. So I'm really grateful, Chuck, that you're here with us. And I just mean alive, you know, first and foremost. And then secondly, that you have this opportunity.

Chuck LaFLange (54:23.449)
Yeah, that is.

Fleetwood (54:43.335)
you know, to bring people together. And beyond that, brother, I'm just grateful to have my breath and to, you know, have my child and my wife and my parents back in my life. And I'm just really grateful for an opportunity to improve. That's really a big part of my program. And, you know, beyond that, man, God gives and God takes. And I'm certainly grateful for the ride and the journey and I'll accept whatever He takes or gives.

Chuck LaFLange (55:12.554)
Wow man, wow. Myself, I'm grateful to another wonderful guest. I'm so thankful that I came across that toilet testimony as I've been calling it. I mean you might have another name for it but that's what it'll forever be on my show. So I gotta say I'm grateful for that noise in the background too. To children's, they just make my heart happy.

To see somebody being a parent is wonderful, right? So, yeah. I'm also grateful to every single person who continues to watch, listen, support, like, comment, share, do all the things down at the bottom there, please. Every time you do any one of these things, you're getting me a little bit closer to living my best life. My best life is to continue making a humble living, spreading the message. The message is this. If you're in active addiction right now, today could be the day, today could be the day that you lead a lifelong journey.

Fleetwood (55:40.211)
Absolutely.

Chuck LaFLange (55:59.754)
Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call into detox, go to a meeting. I don't really care, just get that journey started because it is so much better than the alternative. And if you have a loved one who's suffering addiction right now, just take the time to listen to our conversation. You just take one more minute out of your day and text that person, let them know they are loved. Use the words.

Fleetwood (56:26.823)
You are loved.

Chuck LaFLange (56:28.866)
That little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings them back.

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