258 - RYAN BATHGATE

[00:00:00] My sponsor at the time challenged me on that. This is early days, probably 2001 maybe or something like that. And he said, okay, you don't believe anything? And I was like, yeah. Well, it's just, you know, when your sister died, were you angry?

[00:00:11] And I said, yeah, fucking angry. He's like, well, how can you be angry? Something you don't believe? And I was like, ee. Actually what I'd said is there's nothing you can say to make me believe there's a God.

[00:00:21] And then he said that and I was like, okay, there's one thing. Hey, so that was just one little clip from our very eclectic conversation today. Ryan and I had another one of our unscripted, no agenda episodes. That the conversation just goes in a really great direction.

[00:00:37] And I'm really glad that we're doing it that way. Hey listen, title sponsor for today's episode is the Yachtra Thomas Center here in Krabi, Thailand where I reside. For those of you that might not be familiar with my journey so far,

[00:00:46] and I know there's more and more people going to the platform all the time. Yachtra is why I came to Thailand in the first place. And I decided to stay for a variety of reasons.

[00:00:54] That first 30 some odd days when I attended the residential treatment program was actually life changing. Absolutely life changing. They treat trauma, they do it very, very, very well. And I do like to say that where addiction is a smoke, trauma is a fire.

[00:01:07] You can learn more if you head to our website at a2apodcast.com slash trauma. There you'll find a bunch of episodes that Mike Miller, the head clinician, will start in as well as contact information.

[00:01:15] So you can certainly take a look at them and see if maybe it's a good fit to address some of the things that's happening in your life or maybe in the life of somebody that you love.

[00:01:23] Lastly, if you're enjoying our content, if you just go ahead and hit that like, comment, share. Do those things interact on the different platforms with us? I really do appreciate it as the best way to support us to spread the message. In the meantime, enjoy the show.

[00:01:34] Hello everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds. Welcome to another episode of the Ashes of Austin podcast. I am your host Chuck LaFlandre, Chris Horter, and I am in Krabi, Thailand, halfway around the world. In Mission BC is my good buddy and co-host Ryan Baskett.

[00:01:50] How you doing today, Ryan? Yeah, no, I'm pretty good today. You know, do I want to say good today? No. I wouldn't accept that as an answer. So I got to, yeah, I am feeling hopeful. I'm feeling confident. I'm feeling healthy.

[00:02:12] And, you know, this new way of life is an old way of life, but in refurbished Renaissance. And it is like, it's like, why do I got to learn shit the way I learned shit? You know what I mean?

[00:02:29] Like, why can't I just be like, hey, guess what dipshit? You're not anything special and this life's pretty good. So you don't need to add anything to it. Tell me. You remember that time adding substance to your life made it better. Yeah, me either. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[00:02:52] So yeah, no, I'm good. You know, like it's just like, well, you know, I just, I, you know, I know a lot about this, which makes it worse. You know, like the old saying, you might as well take my advice because I'm not using it.

[00:03:10] Like that's, I'm a fucking poster child for that saying that, you know, like, so yeah. Yeah. Now I got to make a meme note real quick, but I'll give you a collab on that one. So yeah, I thought your name was Chris LaFont.

[00:03:27] That's how I always knew you. Well, and here's the thing. So didn't I ever take this is something to talk about actually. I know about it. But yeah, you do know the story. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

[00:03:36] But let's talk about it anyway, you know, because not everybody knows about that. Right? So, okay. I was born Chris Horder. My name that I use now. My mom remarried this incredible man, Jeff, when they were six years old. Jeff is my homeboy. He's awesome. Isn't he?

[00:03:54] Hey, yeah, I think he should bring the mustache back then. I love the mustache. You like that weeping big 80s mustache. Oh yeah. He had, he had some like a strong facial hair game, right? Oh yeah. And so didn't any work.

[00:04:12] Are you also working like a steel fabrication plant or something? Way back when? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Which fit the mustache perfectly. And again, a tuxedo all the time too. The plant. The denim. The denim. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:04:29] It's like the that's the song and the when you go to the bad guys. Fucking zone in Mario world. Oh, okay. Denim denim denim denim. So it totally is look at that. That's a totally stolen from Paulie from Jersey Shore. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

[00:04:50] I'll never never not hear that when I see that. Yeah. Anyway, yeah. Yeah. So anyway, Jeff's last name is LaFont. Yeah. So that's how I always knew you. I didn't know Hoarder. I never knew that until now until recently. No, no, right?

[00:05:07] And basically nobody in my life has outside of course, you know, my dad like Peter Hoarder who passed years ago now, but we are a P Peter. She never he never adopted us right? Because like Peter was still our dad, but she just back then we're

[00:05:25] going back 40 years, right? You could just kind of assume that name and that's what she did. So she registered as assistant school under LaFont and on we went right? We just took on his last name.

[00:05:35] So when it comes time to get a passport ID and all that you're just that's who you are. Like I never even considered using the name Hoarder for anything because I just grew up as a LaFont. But your birth certificate said Hoarder. About my birth certificates at Hoarder.

[00:05:48] So why is why that matters to the program and it's a major problem when I came out of active addiction and I had lost all of my ID everything right now. I had moved provinces back from I had left Saskatchewan come back to Alberta. Now here's important.

[00:06:08] This is important. Is that an upgrade? Yes, that's an upgrade. Yeah. I had to think about that for a second. But yes, well certainly is anything is not VC sucks. Yeah, as you've as you've made clear. So anyway, let me fucking keep going in traffic.

[00:06:21] Why are you upset? I'm mad bro. You mad bro. Anyway, so I get to Calgary. I want to get like I'm getting my life back together. I'm sober it up and whatever and I go to get ID while I need proof of address.

[00:06:39] So I figure that part out, you know, and my birth certificate of course says Hoarder on it, but I've never encountered this problem before so I go to the registry and they're like we don't know your Chris LaFont right like your birth certificate says Hoarder on it.

[00:06:53] It's like but Kate I've lived in Alberta most of my adult life or half my adult life anyway before moving to Saskatchewan. I had a driver's license a passport. I went to jail health care all under LaFont and then in Saskatchewan.

[00:07:09] I had my passport reissued not because it doesn't matter provincially, but still I had to get my passport reissued in Saskatchewan under LaFont driver's license jail health care all social services all under LaFont. But now I'm setting in a registry in Alberta like

[00:07:25] we don't know your LaFont so but there's a picture of me in the system right like just pull that up. No, no, no, that's not proof. So when I had to get my passport, there is a form called the assumed name change form.

[00:07:37] You just go up in front of a Commissioner of Oaths and say hey, I swear I have been known as by LaFont for 40 years sign this off and you could take that in and it was a document that you could use to

[00:07:48] say no this is who I am with when COVID came on the scene they got rid of that because the frauds just went nuts when everything was online right? Yeah, so I can see why they got rid of it. Yeah, however now I'm a guy who's been homeless

[00:08:01] for the better part of two years moved back to my home province. No ID, no proof of who I am trying to get my life back together trying to get a bank account so I can get assistance so I get you know what

[00:08:11] I mean like all these things and the hurdles man the hurdles. Wow, you might as well just go get high. Well, let me tell you I think I don't need to be facetious but it's but it's so true because there is a resentment right?

[00:08:28] There is a resentment a massive resentment of frustration. There's barriers in like I just want to get my life back together. You guys are making this so fucking hard and I'll tell you what it was the first meltdown I'd had like like, you know a panic attack

[00:08:42] if you want to call it that in months was walking through that registry because it was so frustrating. Yeah, and what ended up so I called the Alberta helpline 311 and said what am I supposed to do? And they said well you're gonna have to

[00:08:55] get a legal name change. I've been homeless for two years. A legal name change is a trip to Mars. I'm trying to adult what the fuck am I supposed to do is the most frustrating thing to go through said well if your birth certificate

[00:09:08] says hoarder then go buy hoarder. Fresh credit. Yeah kind of well social insurance number six with you right? Yeah, so just a quick interruption to let you know that the special sponsor for today's episode is FAR Canada. That's families for addiction recovery. They are a free service.

[00:09:23] They offer weekly group meetings the peer to poor support system. That's just seriously next level as well as a phone line that you can call and talk to somebody and get some support in real time because sometimes that's just what you need. Right? So check them out.

[00:09:35] Frcana.org and back to the show. But anyway, I yeah, so I had to get ID under hoarder and that's who I am now. When I went to go get my passport no problem. Hoarder even though I had one issued under Lafonte they knew it was me.

[00:09:48] It was like a problem hoarder. So now I just go buy hoarder and then and then the chuckle flange thing was just you know an alias. I created a long time ago. I used at the beginning of days of the show because I wanted to stay anonymous.

[00:10:00] I don't why not anymore and because I don't know. It was a different show back then, right? I know you remember you told me to call it with an A and I'm like nah. Yeah, no, no, no. So but I was very early right?

[00:10:15] I was like four months like a solar when I started this thing, right? So very different mindset back then than I have now. But those frustrations for somebody end up keeping in mind. I've got resources that a lot of I won't say most but most certainly

[00:10:29] a lot of people don't have when they're coming out of when they're coming out of active addiction when they're coming out of life on the streets, right? You know, and they're trying to get their life disorder and life together and all that I have.

[00:10:42] I had resources that a lot of people don't have my family backing me up and all those things and it almost broke me. Yeah, I know that process almost broke me right? So honestly like I'm living in myself like if I didn't have all this experience in recovery,

[00:11:03] there's no way that I stay sober going through this shit with courts and stuff. There's no way right? Like if I wasn't so set on knowing what I have to do because I because I've been through this time and time again

[00:11:17] that I know what to do if I didn't know that I'm relapsing yeah without a dog like the stress the weight the heaviness the fear all of it and then the frustrations of like first of all bureaucracy and common sense don't share the

[00:11:35] same space at the same time first of all, you know true story true story right? Yeah. Yeah, like I know I know that what's going on. You know what's going on and you still won't do it you dip shit. Like are you kidding me?

[00:11:49] Like yeah, you can see my picture with my name on it you dummy. You know, right? It's like you know do you know what they suggested to me in that registration office? You're going to have to get Saskatchewan to call here and verify who you are. Saskatchewan.

[00:12:03] I can't convince you and I'm standing in front of you. I'm going to call just going to call Saskatchewan. Who is Saskatchewan am I going to call like it's someone's house. I think they're sleeping. Like yeah, right. Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah. No, no this half of the year.

[00:12:18] They're not on your time. So it's already, you know, they're on lunch right now. Come on. Yeah, right. The proverbial day. Yeah. Yeah, you know, so like pull together right. So it was just crazy. And my mom who you know, you know, you know as well. I do.

[00:12:33] Yeah, she said something to me that was really interesting and it's something that that's really stuck with me. And if there was a way to kind of make that help this move forward in the world. It was something I would love to be a part of.

[00:12:44] She said when you get in shit with the cops. They know who you are real fast. Without a shadow of a doubt beyond a reasonable doubt. If you want to say that right. If you want to punish me for my behaviors in activation or anything else, right? Whatever.

[00:13:01] You know who I am. If you want to put me in jail, you know who I am. If you want to burn my life to the ground, you know who I am and you can do it in five minutes. But God, right. If you start picking up

[00:13:11] the pieces. Yeah, right now all of a sudden now it's a big deal to prove who I am. Yeah, right. And that's where I take it like and it was so like she said there needs to be a process where you can walk into a

[00:13:24] can you just verify who I am so I can get some ID and get moving on with my life. And then or you walk in there smash a window and know who you are. Yeah, right. All of a sudden it's just so like when

[00:13:36] it comes to being punitive we can identify you real fast. When it comes to trying to rebuild my life nobody has a clue who I am. Here's the thing and that's like this horribly frustrating. At the end of the day what all of this

[00:13:49] what I mean to say by all of this and and and to keep it away from you know making this all about how horrible our system is and it is horrible. But yeah, there's certainly elements that are that are not pretty to take it back to the beginning

[00:14:03] like to to the person who's experiencing it how hard it is for somebody to get their life back. You know what I mean right? Like and how how we can just do better and there's like like it really it really makes me feel for people right like just

[00:14:20] you know what would happen if like we designed or altered the system to be like you know like in counseling we do person centered therapy. In organizations we do strength based work like what what what if we looked at these systems it was like

[00:14:36] hey I wonder how we could make this serve the citizen 100% like the guy that's the guy that's like your my pictures right there you see my name you want me to call Saskatchewan? It's insane. It is absolutely insane that this is what's expected of people and it just

[00:14:55] and again I'd refer back to that. I had resources I was standing there with my stepmother at this registry she was like calm down right she's trying you know she's there to help me pay for it she's like and I am like like just completely you know

[00:15:10] stressed out and having a panic attack right? Yeah. And and you're also like you have agency like you you are an intelligent motivated right? He would be that articulates well you understand complex theory like imagine somebody with like FAS Yeah. That doesn't have their mom's been dead

[00:15:30] for 10 years their dad's in jail. Yeah. You know what I mean? What the fuck are they supposed to do right? And there is there is things happening I know it's Saskatchewan there's actually that that that Crown prosecutor former Crown Prosecutor that was on the show

[00:15:44] she's with the Elizabeth Fry Society now a good show by the good good episode by the way. Oh you checked out one out eh she's she's pretty awesome eh it was it was interesting to me like I saw the the thumbnail I was like yeah that's actually

[00:15:54] that's interesting because you know it speaks to it does speak to power and like how Yeah. Yep. How we can be we can it's power is a mistress like we can be so you know I know I know this like you know

[00:16:06] I went down the road of relapse because of really because of my place that I hid behind so I used power to hide what was actually happening in behind the scenes which was you know using or on my way to use you know absolutely right I'm not

[00:16:21] I'm not exempt from that statement either. Yeah. At all but I do understand that and like like I'm you know like you said before golding absolute power crops absolutely and I you know and I do believe that on some level but I also think that there's elements of

[00:16:36] power that is on an in an asset that does not corrupt it does actually like embody the human spirit and I and I just think that you know there are ways within our system that we can start to mold things that are more geared towards

[00:16:50] the agency of individuals or cultivating agency with individuals like imagine if you went through this process and you became stronger and you know and more understanding of things and like a better sense of self-worth and value you know what I mean because I was able to like

[00:17:06] advocate for myself or I learned how or someone showed me how instead of like oh you don't you didn't you didn't you know you got an FTA so you didn't make court in time so you're on a breach and now we're gonna that's a criminal charge

[00:17:20] we're gonna add that to everything else oh I yeah I understand that you have mental health issues and and that doesn't really matter because you didn't make it to court am I kidding me? This is a judicial system this isn't the healthcare system yes exactly but I mean

[00:17:32] I mean you know I think like you know I'm a counselor I have a good understanding of the judicial system I have an understanding of the medical system I have an understanding of the education system you know I understand these things why don't we have more of that

[00:17:45] and and and maybe we do and I don't know I don't know like I'm not I'm not a lawyer I've seen a couple things happening in Alberta and in Saskatchewan and I know nothing about what's happening in BC but what what the approach is is starting to be

[00:18:03] is this this inter-agency thing yes where we we you know whatever a person wants to say about the Alberta model I think the spirit of it is is right there's certain elements of it that people are gonna pick apart and disagree with but with anything though

[00:18:19] yeah of course right you know what they have a ministry that is trying to bring all the ministries together yeah and be a hub for all of these services Ted Bundy right what what fuck Ted Ted Bundy Ted Bundy got away with it for so long because

[00:18:36] each state didn't talk to each other you know what I mean so he went from Washington, Colorado to Florida and like kill people like oh these so these murders don't fucking go together oh wait yeah they do because they don't have a central registry Mindhunter

[00:18:49] you know that show you ever watch that show oh yeah yeah that's what that's about that's a great show that's a wonderful show and so like doesn't matter if you can pick shit apart all you want and like I don't know where I stand on Alberta's ideas

[00:19:01] I know that I think personally that it all fits together it's not to be segregated it is like this is the way it all works together now I think Alberta's great and Saskatchewan because they're trying they're trying something like like they're getting in the ring

[00:19:16] and they might take a beating but at least they got in the goddamn ring you know what I mean yeah right and yeah and other parts of the country not so much right you know other parts of North America right let's be honest even here like it's like

[00:19:28] you know we're really saturated in harm reduction and like I it has a role to play but it's not the role do you know one of our one of my former co-hosts on the show I read a quote from her the other day

[00:19:44] I'm not gonna say her name because I don't even want to give I don't even want to give that space however the quote was harm reduction can be the end goal and I was just like what the fuck kind of no the fuck it can't

[00:20:03] was my response to that to be honest with you no it can't there wasn't human lives at stake I wouldn't even pay attention to that however if that's the gulag we're drinking then that's a problem right it certainly is you know what I mean and like

[00:20:16] the goal has to be helping people improve their lives how effective we are at that goal and what what role harm reduction plays in that there's a scale there's a spectrum whatever right but if you if you stop the effort at harm reduction

[00:20:30] then what the fuck are we doing so that's what I mean that's my whole problem with all of it every all of it is like every piece has a part of the fucking the the the spectrum or the I'm looking for a different word doesn't matter

[00:20:45] I'm not going to get it they all have a part to play yeah yeah but each one of them is not an isolated solution for the whole thing they all have to work together right which I think and anybody with any sort of enlightenment be it basic or

[00:21:02] whatever understands that harm reduction abstinence mandated treatment whatever they've all they're all tools in a toolbox and you know substance use disorder has as many versions as souls in the world right so there is not going to be a universal tool just not no but there you know

[00:21:24] there is there is a grand body of work that is been dissected and then made almost pitted against each other yes right you know what I mean instead of being like hey you know like to me harm reduction is about relationships so that when the person's ready boom

[00:21:41] yes and so when the person's ready for the next state phase of the continuum that's the word I was looking for then the handoff happens absolutely okay we're ready percent right I've been working with this person for two years we have a really good relationship

[00:21:57] I've been giving them harm reduction supplies they came to me because I'm safe and said I think I'm ready I think I need to make a change I think I need to do it now and then I can get on the phone and be like hey I got

[00:22:06] I already got this set up for somebody that we have a fast access to get them into a detox bed not have to wait six months and then right from that detox bed into a treatment center where they're going to learn about that stuff while simultaneously being exposed

[00:22:20] to recovery communities which I believe people should do in their own time and not at a treatment center I don't think treatment centers are for recovery I think they're for therapy fair enough fair enough right and but but I also like when I ran a floor

[00:22:31] I didn't check step work but I did it did always suggest home group service position sponsor steps on your own time because out in the real world when you're not in treatment that's how you have to do it Yeah, right that's accountable to yourself

[00:22:46] you know what I mean so when you leave treatment you already have a sponsor home service position a home group you're on step four Yeah You know what I mean and I have nothing to do with that as a therapist Yeah I'm teaching you about neuroleukothorium

[00:22:58] teaching you about meaning purpose we're talking about I don't know CBT interventions we're talking about EMT whatever it is but it's not recovery it's not faith-based or it's evidence-based and I and I and that's my personal feelings on that

[00:23:11] I wouldn't be good to make a case for it because that's all another thing and I don't even think that I'm qualified to make a case for it I've been in the industry a long time and I think like I said I think everything is a place

[00:23:22] and I think they all work together Absolutely right so that's where this idea that's coming out of Alberta not it's not even coming out of Alberta but they are attempting right now is this that interagency thing where just like if somebody could do that please right

[00:23:37] but mental health and addictions is now the seventh largest ministry in Alberta right like they have they have they went from a basement office to like one of the big guys they're now like they're they're one of the big players and in their can I do a correction

[00:23:53] the addiction is not a term anymore mental health MHSU mental substance use fair enough fair enough okay yeah just to bring us up to 2024 I'm probably still going to use addiction because it's the common language amongst the late people yeah I hear you it's beyond to be like

[00:24:09] I don't identify a substance use disorder I don't I'm in a meeting I'm going to say I'm writing an alcoholic but if I'm talking to you I'm going to say that I have substance use disorder fair enough fair enough well I don't refer to myself as an addict

[00:24:22] so there we go right I I don't actually either ever because I don't go to NA so yeah but I I believe that we're we're not far off from mental health and addictions no longer being separate things even even the same mental health substance use right MHSU

[00:24:38] mental substance use yeah and I and it's all mental health yes that's that's my point that I'm making right right is it totally 100% if I think about every relapse I've had it's because of poor mental health I don't know I want to go

[00:24:50] I want to go back to the harm reduction thing for a second and you started touching on it quite well and just for me where I my mind was completely changed Dr. Lisa in an episode had once said it's an opportunity to connect that's where she

[00:25:06] like she was anti-harming she was abstinence, abstinence, abstinence right and then as she went through medical school it was you know she was learn more about harm reduction and it's an opportunity to connect 100% and you just that's exactly what you were saying just now right like

[00:25:21] so what I mean I've interviewed hundreds of people and the question is always on there what are your views on harm reduction my the answer I want to hear is harm reduction is about relationships it's about people yep 100% right that's it what do I get it's about needles

[00:25:34] it's about brillo it's about straight pipes it's about hammer pipes and no it's not about any of that that's a medium for connection you have what they need what they need and what they you have what they think they need

[00:25:48] you also have what they don't know they need which is connection yeah yeah right and what do we know about connection that is the opposite of addiction yeah it's ruined it's ruined 100% it is right yeah yeah Jason and I were talking in that episode that we recently did

[00:26:03] and I don't know if he said it in the episode or if it was pre or post record Jimmy Westey I don't even know if we're allowed to fucking call him that I'm just going to hear this because he listens to your episodes but sorry Jimmy Jason sorry

[00:26:15] and I'm sorry honestly he just texted me while we were talking did he? All right there you go so you have to let him know that he was mentioned he probably said he always texts like one sentences and so I was like you have 18 text messages

[00:26:26] so I was like oh he's one of those yeah oh yeah yeah I had a customer back in the day I said your number is three you're not allowed to make my my phone make three more than three noises after that

[00:26:38] I'm just going to ignore you for the rest of the day yeah so say what you want right you don't have to hit send every time you use a comma he did one word deadly I said I'm recording he said deadly deadly sent however sent I'm more important

[00:26:57] send laughing face send self or self centered self or self centered that we believe to be the nature of our problem sent Jimmy sorry I would kill him for that had to do it yeah had to do it yeah I was like I was like six messages

[00:27:13] what the fuck is he going to novel here and was like oh six messages six words so he the exchange that we had had was if you're going to if you're going to hand out harm reduction supplies which I I agree with there should

[00:27:29] by law have to be some sort of information about so in my opinion that's about leadership yeah yeah that is so if you're I was a harm reduction manager and and outreach manager and so that was one of the things that I

[00:27:46] asked my staff to ensure that they had was resources to go along with whatever they're handing out including detox treatment recoveries houses the the you know the DC whatever number the whatever you know any list of phone numbers so that if they're ready including your number and cart

[00:28:04] that should go with everyone yeah yeah, so so to me like yes mandated sure but I'm my opinion every manager should be having their stuff do that anyway yeah yeah, right, you know but and so to go right back to the beginning of this harm reduction

[00:28:22] could be the end goal like in what world yeah, I can't get with that no not at all right and it that's like that indicates that like these people are happy so they have a right to live like this and it's like

[00:28:38] you have a right to be happy there is models that like it works and the thing is is North America takes every good idea and fucks it up they do yeah Switzerland did this amazingly and people were turned to citizenship. They got jobs. There's still

[00:28:56] eventually most of them got off heroin but they were addicted. They were on the street doing addicted to heroin dodging HIV through intervenes use and that was the number one thing on Switzerland's agenda in 1989 in the political agenda. They introduced what we would call safe supply

[00:29:13] which is just such an oxymoron but they introduced you could you go get free heroin from your doctor you go in the morning do a shot come home from work your shot eventually they were doing like 10 shots a day and about a week later

[00:29:24] they went down to like two or three and then they got jobs and they started paying their bills and rent and taxes and became regular citizens that still had their medicine and that's the way they looked at it. It wasn't like this stigma thing.

[00:29:36] It was like it's really sucks that you have to go see the doctor every day. You know, I'm working on moving away from that and that's what happened and people would start to like once the stigma is gone

[00:29:47] once the they could return to a sense of intrinsic resource through social support instead of instead of degradation. They would it would become a medical issue instead of a social issue. And once it was a medical issue it became about not wanting to be SUD.

[00:30:04] You know what I mean? Or SUD and recovery which is you know, you and I are Yeah. So it is so they like the four pillars work great not here. They tried to do it here and the political agenda would not allow it to function

[00:30:19] properly which ultimately ended in being turned on the public eye and which which would to me is is politically driven and and eventually it becomes a vulnerability for whatever office is in party to be attacked by the office wanting to be a party

[00:30:35] and then it becomes about a fucking pissing that actually how do I thought we were talking about health and citizen potential. No, we're talking about another four years. Yeah, it's always another four years, right? And so and we and we just don't see that in Europe.

[00:30:49] It's not how it works. There's legacy. There's people even politicians work together, you know, and I don't know anything about Europe, but I'm pretty sure there's no smear campaigns like Bill G wanted you to vote for Bill C81 and he wears dresses. Yeah.

[00:31:10] He stole eight dollars from a girl. I was trying to buy ice cream. 1981, you know, like the fuck does that have to do with anything? Yeah. True story. That's what happens disgusting like you win by making the other people personally a piece of shit like that's democracy.

[00:31:31] Yeah, which is another empty word. I don't think it's ever existed. I mean definitely not the BC BC fairies is a monopoly that socialist. Yeah, right. Do you know this is kind of totally off. It's not off topic because you just kind of did it but

[00:31:48] an interesting thing. I was explained to somebody back in Calgary about Saskatchewan. So they had the Saskatchewan Transit Corp the STC. So, you know, the Greyhound system all across Canada all the small towns whatever when it was still thing right. Greyhound. Yeah.

[00:32:06] In Saskatchewan, they went through the number one and they like they they were on two highways. That was it. Every other community was serviced by STC by a Crown Corp bus line. But you didn't know that right. So you like you there you couldn't take a Greyhound

[00:32:24] from Estevan to Regina or from Prince Albert to Saskatoon or whatever. That was all STC right. And then they ran it at a loss for years. Sounds like ICBC. Not just not just a loss but like a massive loss right because they're running buses up the highway

[00:32:41] with two people in them. You know, like there's just like it's insane, right? Common sense and bureaucracy. Oh, yeah, right. So the pushback when they switched to some smaller buses was immense. And then eventually the Saskatchewan party government had to say, you know what we are losing millions

[00:33:05] and millions of dollars a year so that two people can get a ride from, you know, Campsac Saskatchewan. You know right like it's crazy, you know, so we're going to shut down the line and they did so what happens? Obviously, there's a massive pushback and all the

[00:33:21] people are like, oh but how is grandma going to get in from, you know, Elbow to Regina and whatever. But once all that once I've that dust settled a company was born called Rider Express Rider Express now covers every community in Saskatchewan

[00:33:37] essentially like all the ones that matter anyway, you know, yeah with as small as a minivan as a passenger minivan to some of them because that's what it warrants and right up to a full Greyhound size bus. So common sense.

[00:33:51] Yeah, and if you want to take a trip from Regina to Vancouver, guess what bus you're on now. Rider Express. You can because Rider Express because private because as soon as the government stopped messing with like competing with private business

[00:34:10] and said hey you guys figure it out the service got better cheaper and it just keeps expanding. Yeah, like exponentially, you know what I mean? Right. Yeah, the government stopped competing with private business. It was just like look at that now that somebody's

[00:34:23] making a profit instead of the government losing millions of dollars and everybody's a lot happier doing it. Yeah, they created more jobs and sustainability and yeah, so we have I mean British Columbia socialist carrying says oh yeah, Saskatchewan was for a very very long time right.

[00:34:39] We don't have private liquor stores. We don't have private insurance. We don't have private ferries. We don't have private buses. You don't have a private police. Everything here is is a monopoly relative to like I went to go make a thing for the reservation

[00:34:55] for the ferry and basically the lady was just awful never click. I think she took a course in how to be a jerk to say nicely and like what could I do about it? Go to their competitor. Nope, nope, right. No, they win.

[00:35:12] What it doesn't matter what they say. I got to do whatever they say. Yeah, right. So naturally I didn't do that. Someone else made the reservation. I'd rather stay home. Not riding in your fascist very Jesus Christ. Yeah, I thought I saw him around there. Oh, just kidding.

[00:35:45] You know that Hugo Boss designed all the SS uniforms. I did not know that. True story. No, should a Nazi sympathizer. Yeah. So is one of my favorite one of my favorite phenomenologists I learned who's now not one of my favorite phenomenologists, but I learned

[00:36:07] that he was a Nazi sympathizer. And yeah, yeah. Who's that? Hager. Okay, Hager. Who's being in time is famous book really good really really brilliant guy. But yeah, you know, there's a few character guards. He's one of my favorites to you.

[00:36:26] He's a little bit religious, but I kind of look past that personally about I mean, it's a sign of the time 1800s. Everyone was religious. He's the guy that said true subjectivity is truth, which means there's no truth. Truth is in the eye of the beholder.

[00:36:40] No, like subjectivity is truth. Truth is subjectivity. In other words, truth is never objective. It's always subjective. Gotcha. Which means it changes with each different consciousness. Yeah. And that would go to say that there's no right or wrong. Yeah. Now that's a whole nother front.

[00:37:00] That's a whole nother episode. That's what that is. Right. Think about it. Right and wrong is a construct of the human mind like time. Yeah, time is how we make sense of the earth spinning around the Sun right and wrong in the organic world.

[00:37:14] There isn't right or wrong. Animals don't know right and wrong. They know instinct. No, you know, I eat you. I live you dot that's wrong for the thing that dies and is really right for the thing that 80 completely subjective. You know, yeah, true story. True story.

[00:37:32] So when I hear like this is the right way, I'm like according to who so you do you cheer for the cheetah or the gazelle? Right. Depends if I want to eat the gazelle too. It depends on what mood I'm in really

[00:37:48] because you know project what you reflect, right? So like yeah, I cheer for the for the cartoon cow with a big smiley face in the packaging of my steak. I buy because that wasn't an animal at one time. No. No, no. Happy cow.

[00:38:05] I dated somebody for you for a long time actually who would not eat anything whose body part we didn't bother to rename. Say steak was okay. A chicken wing was not what are chicken thigh? No ribs. Roast. No, okay. Right. Yeah. Ham fine. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:38:31] Yeah bacon all more. Give me more right? Yeah, sure. Nope. Let me get a let me get some hot wings. Yeah, no. Yeah, no just absolutely refuse to right. Yeah. Yeah. So they're clearly not a fan of ham at Christmas one year because

[00:38:47] of that I was pissed right off about it. Yeah. Oh Turkey. Yeah, it's a whole animal. That's just like really breaking all the rules. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah. So that's that's neurotic. Yeah, well she was right. Yeah. So yeah, it's also the one

[00:39:03] that is also the one that ended up leaving with my anyway. Keep that can closed. Yeah, I hate like once you bitterness come out in the episode. So you don't want back to do you want to go back to the original question? Sure. What was it?

[00:39:22] I don't remember. How are you? That went off on a tangent didn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Well, tell you what my world my world I'm moving in three days. Yeah, right. I'm excited. I'm so excited for that excited for that. You know, typically moving is

[00:39:38] one of the stressful most most stressful times of your life. Well, there's a couple things of that. Hey, I've been a mover most of my life. So I'm really all right. I don't know. That's how we used to get your money. It doesn't really apply this

[00:39:50] time because like I have two boxes and three bags to move. I don't actually I own. Oh and my desk slash table, right? Like that's it in my office chair, which is I really want to kill it. So anyway, like I have nothing to move.

[00:40:06] So it's it's really it's like it's a half a pickup load. Wow. Well, what it means is sunny my yard right now like to have a yard in Thailand is not the same as having yard back home. It's a jungle to own a yard is to

[00:40:19] have to tame a jungle like it's absolutely crazy. It's all over me. What do you got for big cap? I haven't seen any spiders, right? Well tires, but not anymore. Right. So yeah, tigers. Yeah, mankind. Fuck that right up. Was it like seeing a cougar here?

[00:40:35] Like is it happen once in a while or no, I think they're pretty much gone from the wild as I understand it and if they are it would be way up in the mountains in northern Thailand Thailand like they wouldn't be anywhere near around here. Right.

[00:40:47] This is too civilized. Right. We have cougar alerts all the time. Yeah. Alert. Yeah, we had two bears on my trampoline last winter. Oh shit. Yeah. Yeah, just hanging out on the trampoline. They either go to the trampoline to climb the tree. Okay. Okay.

[00:41:04] Yeah, that's kind of cool. I live in a mountain town. Yeah, it'll happen. Right. But anyway, so the yard to keep up on it is it's crazy and it's not it's not something that I like you have to buy a gas-powered weed Whacker and it just

[00:41:17] this constant trying to tame a jungle, right? So what ends up happening out there is fleas and ticks get really bad. So I don't want to like, man, not a dog's friend. Yeah, no, not at all. He gets at least three baths flea and tick baths a week.

[00:41:31] Wow. And then I spray him on the off days. It's not okay. Right. It's not confirmed. So that's real deal Lyme disease happening over there. Well, yeah, man, like you do how many ticks I found on my leg now is like and I like

[00:41:45] you want to see a grown man. Oh, yeah, no, it's just not okay. It's not okay when that happens. So so I'm really excited to be moving more than that, but more than what I'm getting away from what I'm going to eight minutes from the

[00:41:56] beach six minutes from Thai language school where I go. Where are you going? You want from Krabi? Where I'm still in Krabi. So right now I'm in Krabi town. Okay, Krabi province. Right. So I'm Krabi Krabi. This is a big national park in Krabi. I'm not sure what

[00:42:11] that would be. I don't know. It says it on the map. I looked at where I looked at where you are. I looked at Krabi town. I looked at the beach. Okay. Okay. So I'm going to a place called Sai Tai which is a village in

[00:42:24] province of Krabi. All right. Let me ask you more personal question. How's that step work coming off? Still haven't done it. Haven't found anybody. I'm still you know, when I still wrestle with how to handle the faith part and I know I've heard all of the cliches. Okay,

[00:42:39] I still wrestle with that. Let me let me reason I wrestle with it. If I can I'll just I'll finish off and then ask a question. The reason that I wrestle with it. If I was an atheist I could I could do whatever a tree is my

[00:42:53] higher power. Whatever is my higher power higher power universe, whatever if I wasn't questioning my faith so much now. I could do those things but I am so I find myself on a fence of where do I land and if I'm going to if I'm going to take

[00:43:09] an honest deep dive in a step work I feel it's important for me to to know what I'm you know, where do I land on that? Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. I think it I think a bit of a different approach. I think first

[00:43:25] first of all, there's no foxes and there's no atheist in a foxhole. Yeah, okay. I've experienced that a couple times in my life whether it be gun to me or being in a jail cell where I've done God get me out of this and I swear to

[00:43:40] God I'll do you know what I mean? The bargaining. Yeah. And so I took that and looked at it like, okay, okay, at the very worst of the worst I think I'm going to die or I think that my life is over. Who am I talking to? Yeah,

[00:43:57] you know what I mean? So there's something there then from there. It's a big fucking question mark and that's good enough for me. I don't know. Now they say a God of our understanding. I say a God of my lack of understanding and that's good enough for me.

[00:44:11] I don't need to know. I don't know what's passed the Milky Way man. Yeah, you know what I mean? I don't know. I don't know if we're a conglomerate of a cell cellular organism at a microscopic level. I don't know. You know what I mean?

[00:44:23] I just don't know. So and we're very different places though quite similar. You're confident in the I don't know. Yeah, I'm not. So I learned a long time ago that if I try to figure everything out I'm going to be fucking racking my brain and get nowhere.

[00:44:39] The bottom line is I take a lot of comfort in ignorance. I do ignorance can be bliss right without a shadow of a doubt it can't be you know what I mean like just not knowing is okay, but like you know, here's what I know

[00:44:47] and this is data in my life when I have believed in something my life got really good when I turned my back on it. My life got really shitty that's not has anything that's nothing to do with substances. Yeah, that is like you know, I turn my

[00:45:03] back on on any spiritual beliefs sober and years later I relapsed but it took a while and so like and you know, I was thinking about this the other day like I've always had some kind of belief somehow. I know I used to collect all the spoons

[00:45:17] at home and pray that my parents would stop using you know by taking all the dirty spoons and so I believed in something then and then when when Sherry died I got angry and I said I didn't believe I didn't there is no God that's what was

[00:45:37] my stance. My sponsor at the time challenged me on that this is early days probably in 2001 maybe or something like that and he said okay, you don't believe anything is like yeah, I'm like well, it's just you know, when your sister died were you angry? I said,

[00:45:50] yeah fucking angry. He's like well, how can you be an angry something you don't believe it and I was like eeeeee damn it actually what I said is there's nothing you can say to make me believe there's a God and then he said that I was like

[00:46:01] okay, there's one thing okay not bad good job and so like I don't even care man I don't even care if it like I said if it's gonna make my daughter's life better then I'm gonna try yep you know what I mean and and and

[00:46:16] I've just been in places in my life that I that I believed in something when I had nothing left and so like I don't know if that is what's required for people to like be okay with I don't know I've been okay with I don't know

[00:46:32] my whole life and it's just very recently that I've been having this I want to call it crisis of faith because I'm not in crisis I'm in a pretty good place these days and I think that if we were having this conversation a week a month six months

[00:46:50] into recovery experiencing what I am right now I would just I would just do it I would go for the steps and see what happened you know what I mean like I would just start working that and yeah and allow that process to happen

[00:46:59] but what if this is its own process maybe it is I think it's evolution personal evolution I think you're actually without a doubt right and you you're looking at something and saying hey like I'm not gonna believe what you want me to believe I want to look at

[00:47:14] this and believe in something for myself because it won't be sustainable if I don't yeah right so because I don't because I'm not in desperate need of doing the program yeah you know what I mean like I'm in a pretty good place mentally and all those things right

[00:47:32] I have a little bit of freedom to really explore one before jumping into the other you know what I mean you do yeah yeah until you don't and then you're then you're at a cost but you're not in that space right now so why would you no yeah

[00:47:46] and you know what like why not take the time and try to figure something out yeah and like I've got all the time in the world right like I really do you know like I'm maybe it ends up being the same beliefs as mine where it's like you're

[00:47:58] at the same place it's just you're okay with it instead of not being okay yeah and I and this is you know I was at this space a long time ago probably around the same point of recovery you're at now but I was 20 or whatever and it

[00:48:12] was just like I was not okay with not figuring it out and ultimately I ended up suffering for that and so what I learned from that experience was that that's not something I want to fuck with you know but that was for me in my my growth

[00:48:28] in my development and so like yeah and I don't like I said I don't even know what I believe in I just know that nobody knows so I'm make whatever the fuck I want I believe I'm going to see Siri one day when I when I go and

[00:48:40] whether I'm right or wrong doesn't matter to me yeah what matters is what I believe now you know and fuck dude that would be awesome if I got to see Siri again of course it would you know and so what that that's what I believe and nobody

[00:48:55] can take that away from me so whatever you my point is you have the freedom to decide whatever it is and it's yours yeah and it's not up for debate it's not up for subjectivity it's not even up for anyone's opinion unless you and I don't I think

[00:49:13] eventually I will get to that because the other thing really and like it's not finding resentment though maybe maybe some level of this but I know for me to find a sponsor is going to be an online somebody online like an in-person sponsor here is probably not

[00:49:25] gonna work out for me right I just because sheer lack of them and I spent a lot of my life online right honestly it's just like do I need another fucking thing to do it's and it's not a race you know you get you have I'm not in

[00:49:41] that place right so yeah I've got the luxury of time now right so you don't got a gun in your mouth and you're not in the jail cell yeah you don't you're not in a foxhole so you don't you can be you can be whatever the fuck

[00:49:54] you want yeah right you know but you have and I guess where that question was born from because last time we were talking right you have inspired me to take a real hard look at it which is more than it was yeah certainly more so it's a win

[00:50:10] no matter what you do nothing with it it's still a win from where you go oh yeah you know and the reality is like eight whether or not I want to believe it or not it has an incredible asset that I would are a credible advantage that I

[00:50:24] would consider an asset whether I like it or not the evidence is there my life is better when I'm believing in something than it is when I'm not what ultimately what happens is that's a fucking problem and you know what if I didn't eat shit breathe record live

[00:50:48] recovery who knows I don't yeah right I can confidently say that had I got a job in a warehouse back two years ago or you know 20 months ago yeah I'm not sober today I agree right yeah I think I think I think this is a lot to you

[00:51:07] I think what you've learned is far beyond what people learn in the in the confines of a church basement right just pure exposure I mean this is my osmosis if nothing else I mean look at some of the people that have come on this show and talked about

[00:51:19] SUD and from so many different angles and so many right I had a guy say to me the other day it was a conversation in the comments on Facebook and some group he's like oh buddy you don't even get to hang with me at 20 months like you're a

[00:51:34] piece of shit I didn't even like I just like oh there it is the toxic ego I'm done with this man like I'm and he's like oh well you know no I'm not doing that with you right you should have read the I am responsible pledge

[00:51:48] you know that you talked about it in the last episode now I'm anywhere anyone needs a hand in AA if I'm there to put out yeah my I am responsible yeah and it was a weaponized thing he was doing with his clean time which is gross

[00:52:03] and toxic ego and shitty and just like you want to go to compassion with that you've been sober for 20 years and your piece of shit right like so what you know you you figured out sobriety and everything else in your life is crap

[00:52:16] so the only thing you've done well is not put shit in your body for 20 years yeah yeah right if you're saying things like that to people and your whole identity is wrapped up and you think that you're better than another human being because of and you know

[00:52:26] and you literally have nothing I want yeah so whatever right I wasn't going to continue to engage with somebody like that right well I think there's some good sport in that if you're up to it oh this is quite often like you want to fuck

[00:52:40] you want to pay attention to some of my comment wars man like they get pretty good right I bet did I tell you about the pictures of people's kids no I'm not sure if you'll appreciate this one or think I'm a little bit crazy for it

[00:52:52] I'm going to tell you the story then we're getting into gratitude brother okay so you go in and there'll be somebody you know in one of these videos is suffering obviously suffering in a like with SUD in just the most horrific way and inevitably there'll be the comments

[00:53:08] let them you know Darwin oh I can figure it out or you know let them die or is there a choice or whatever and when I see a particularly hateful comment it's something that's just that just it's enough to to all even say trigger me

[00:53:22] to be pissed off that somebody would say something like that critical word I don't even like I don't even use the word trigger ever in reference to myself but I guess technically that's what it'd be because I'm pissed off enough to make a comment back right

[00:53:35] there it's a real word and and I'll go to their profile find a picture of them and their kids or their kids and I'll take it and I'll blur out their kids faces mostly and then I'll post it back into the comments and say if it was them

[00:53:49] would you would you choose compassion and science over ignorance right and I got some pretty wild responses yeah oh I love it I love it I love it I love it I got some really great responses out of that I'm calling the local police and fucking shut up

[00:54:07] like who cares I blurred out their faces because I'm a better person than you are right like I'm like Krabby come get me yeah right if it was illegal and it's not in any way shape or form you put your shit up on online

[00:54:18] and it's now public domain so that's that's the reality of that right so so trigger yeah no no I like it because honestly that that brings it home because that's what people are dealing with that you're fucking stupid ignorant comments are affecting is the people that

[00:54:34] that are hopelessly loving somebody that has substance use disorder that have no they don't know what to do they don't know where to go what to say what's right what's wrong you know no idea and you're you're telling them yeah Darwinism survival of the fittest yeah awful

[00:54:53] it's awful awful things that happen you survive I don't know fit my fucking fist in your you know I am in crabby so that's not an option so I just find a sore spot and I pick at it digital warfare yeah yeah no yeah no I

[00:55:10] I've been blocked by a lot of off counts so yeah yeah I bet I like it obviously you know you're being an asshole for all the right reasons I love it yeah and it's the compassionate side of me is like I hope you never have to experience that

[00:55:27] yeah more for your kids than for you and is that not what you're saying yeah right like I hope to God that you never have to experience that and have to look back on this conversation and go what the fuck is ice do you know what I mean

[00:55:40] right like and honestly because you have 20 years of experience not putting drugs in your body does not make you humanist yeah it actually doesn't give you any skillset beyond beyond I don't know citing page 64 the big book you know yeah you know yeah yeah yeah anyways yeah

[00:55:59] was that a meme I made can you imagine God judging us based on the amount of clean time we have compared to another person yeah well I don't know what God is but I don't think it would no right whatever version of God yours is or not

[00:56:14] you know what I mean right like yeah and he's the thing I know is like there's nothing my little girls could do to make me ever turn my back on them ever no so why would God do that to me yeah or you right yeah you know exactly

[00:56:30] so anyway hey let's get into gratitude yeah yeah it's my favorite part of the show it's time for daily gratitudes I'm going to say that because we cut into a little thing now so actually no we don't okay daily gratitudes are brought to you by ARC

[00:56:42] the Alberta Adolescent Recovery Centre they are in Alberta they are a peer peer based program for adolescents who are suffering with SUD treatment involves a whole family it's groundbreaking it's not groundbreaking because he's been around for 34 years so check out their website at ARC.AB.CA

[00:57:01] that's ARC with two A's and learn some more if if you think they might be able to help you or your family or something what you got for gratitude buddy fuck I'm grateful for sanity and I'm being quite literal like I am grateful to have a return to

[00:57:21] a state of mind and being that is not just manageable but an access to potential to love to peace to understanding that I did not embody until this experience and I'm grateful for struggle and all the lessons it teaches us and

[00:57:40] I don't I'm not always grateful for struggle because it fucking sucks sometimes but at the end of the day when I in retrospect I always been grateful for struggle again I'm grateful for really good people in my life that at times I probably don't deserve

[00:57:55] but they're still there and those that have shown up at my lowest have really shown me what it is to be a friend and what it is to see past behaviors and and to use judgment as an asset and reinvigorate the human spirit through connection

[00:58:17] and connection cannot happen without having some vulnerability and a lack of defensiveness and so yeah and then my beautiful little girls and and and Marina and my entire family my mother Rita Brian all all just I'm just so lucky to have people in my life that I do

[00:58:40] and like I said there are times I do not deserve them and they're still there no kidding yeah it's good it's good myself yeah I'm it's funny you think I put more thought into this because I know every day it's going to happen every day I'm like

[00:58:59] listening to yours try to listening to your statement getting my next statement ready which horrible communication stuff learn that in life skills in jail for crying out loud you know what I'm grateful for freedom I'm grateful for freedom you know I said jail and right away it's like

[00:59:14] I remember those days right I am I'm grateful to be here in Krabi living my best life I've ever lived let's be honest so sober never tried that before it's working out rather well for me so and of course I'm grateful to every single person who continues to

[00:59:34] like comment share do all the things you know what to do every time you do these things you're getting me a little bit closer to living my best life my best life is to continue making novel living spreading a message the message is

[00:59:44] if you're an active addiction right now today could be the day today could be the day that you start a lifelong journey reach out to a friend reach out to a family member pray go to church go to a meeting I don't care

[00:59:53] do whatever it is you got to do to get that journey started because it is so much better than the alternative so much so much and if you have a loved one who's suffering an addiction right now just taking the time to listen to our

[01:00:03] kind of a rambly conversation you just take one more minute out of your day and text that person let them know they're loved use the words you are loved that little glimmer of hope which might be the thing that brings them back