260 CAN PARENTS SIGN THEIR CHILD INTO TREATMENT?

Chuck (00:01.246)

Hello everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters, all kinds. Welcome to another episode of the Ashes to Awesome podcast. I'm your host Chuck LaFlange Checking in from Krabi, Thailand, halfway around the world in virtual studio. Calgary, Alberta is my good friend and co -host. Dr. Lisa, how you doing today, Lisa?

Lisa (00:17.509)

I'm really good. I'm happy to be back. We were just saying before we started recording that this is like we've gone three weeks without seeing each other for the first time in a year and a half, I think.

Chuck (00:21.446)

No kidding, eh?

Chuck (00:26.906)

Yeah, hey, it's been... No kidding, no kidding. It's been crazy. It's been crazy. Well, and it's... We can talk about how all of that plays out, but I don't want to leave our guests sitting in the virtual green room, as it were, for too long before we do some introductions here. So, I guess first up, we will do our returning guest from AARC Recovery. That's the Adolescent Recovery Centre, of course, in Alberta. One of our valued partners on the show, Ciara who is back for her third episode now on The Weekend Ramble.

Ciara (00:55.834)

Good morning, everyone.

Chuck (00:57.278)

Hey, hey. And the special treat for today is one of the art graduates and now employees and person in recovery and I'm sure all sorts of other different labels that you can put on yourself or we can kind of dissect as we go is Spencer Arnett. How are you doing today, Spencer?

Spencer Arnett (01:13.864)

I'm doing great, thanks for having

Chuck (01:16.358)

Yeah, no, thank you for coming on. Thank you for coming on. So I guess, where do we even start with all of this? I mean, and I guess the idea today, what we want to focus on and what we want to focus on and where the conversation goes are often two very different things, but it's kind of how this peer -to -peer support system works at Arc. I think that's, I think that's some really next level stuff. And I, when I make the sponsorship mentions, Karen, I don't know if you've noticed this, it's

It's kind of groundbreaking, but it's not groundbreaking. It's been around for 34 years. But like to the rest of us, it's still kind of groundbreaking, right? Like, and Lisa, I think you can attest to that too, as somebody who's in the field, right? Like a lot of this stuff you, don't let me put words in your mouth, but you've never even heard of what's going on at AARC, right? So.

Lisa (02:01.201)

Yeah, no, the extent of it for sure. Like I've seen, you know, with my loved one in a treatment program many, many, many years ago, sort of an attempt, I would say, like if we're comparing an attempt at peer support, you know, but it was more like if they would go out on passes that they would, you know, go accompanied with a peer, but certainly not peer support in the way that AHRQ does it.

Chuck (02:30.828)

And I guess I'll go back, I'll circle back for just a quick second here. Garrett, we have literally hundreds of people joining the platform every week. Things are going, we're growing really fast. So real quick, if you want to give me the one minute version of what is Arc, and then we'll kind of get into the rest of it and you know, kind of go from there if you don't mind. Yeah, okay.

Ciara (02:49.392)

Yeah, for sure. So AARC stands for the Alberta Adolescent Recovery Centre that provide treatment for long term treatment for youth and young adults between the age of 12 and 21 that struggle with. So treatment at AARC is for severe or acute addiction. This is when youth have really become immersed in their addiction.

You know, it has affected their family. has affected school or work, all of those things. And they're really just so heavily dependent on drugs or alcohol to get them through their days. Treatment in general is eight to 10 months. It can be longer depending on the needs of the client and their families. We it really is a wraparound service. mean, peer support is a big part of that, but also

There is an involvement from psychiatry. The clients are surrounded by a clinical team, access to counseling throughout their days. So a very structured environment and support to offer it for everyone.

Chuck (03:54.888)

No kidding, eh? No kidding. And just to establish what we're all doing here, Spencer, do you want to kind of give us a cliff notes of how you end up at a place like Arc? I mean, we're not here to do a recovery like testimony podcast, right? But I think it's important that we kind of figure out what the hell are you doing here, right? So let's start with

Spencer Arnett (04:15.058)

Yeah, you definitely have had to do some damage. And typically it's your family who sends you in treatment. And they will usually know probably about half of the extent I would estimate of your use. if half is as bad, or if half is bad enough to get you in treatment, usually you gotta

Ciara (04:15.524)

Yeah, you have to have done, definitely have had to some damage. And typically it's your family.

and they will usually know probably more than half of the extent that we're estimating of your views.

Spencer Arnett (04:44.224)

pretty destructive in your life. So sometimes you end up getting like tricked into going because no kid really wants to, wants to go into an eight to 10 month treatment center. And you definitely have to meet some criteria for your drug use being bad enough. And we, we do have somebody who does our pre -assessments and you have to kind of check some boxes, but we do get a bit of a sliding scale. Some people

Ciara (04:59.669)

and he definitely needs some criteria.

Ciara (05:10.788)

get a of a sliding skill, something for using

Spencer Arnett (05:13.568)

using meth at 14 and some people are, you know, just still smoking weed and drinking alcohol at 16, you know. So it's a bit of a scale, but typically it's not necessarily about what drug you did or there's no markup for how destructive you are. It's more like how you used, if that makes sense.

Chuck (05:23.592)

bien

Ciara (05:26.499)

It's not necessarily about what drug you did or there's no

Ciara (05:36.176)

Bye.

Spencer Arnett (05:43.465)

Yeah, if that makes

Chuck (05:45.256)

Yeah, yeah. You've crossed the line into severe addiction. Is that a fair way to say that, to kind of sum that up? And you specifically, you kind of, again, we don't want to do the whole testimony thing there, but how bad were you? Well, you know, I don't know if you want to say your drug of choice, not that it really matters, but you know, can you give us just a bit of your history to kind of give us a sense?

Spencer Arnett (05:49.056)

Absolutely.

Spencer Arnett (06:00.863)

Mm

Spencer Arnett (06:09.504)

Well, I actually went into AARC twice. Once was the first time when I was 16. I want to say I wasn't too bad for the demographic of clients that we get typically. think I was probably on the lower end. I was smoking a lot of weed and I was drinking a lot of cough syrup. Were probably my main two things. And I also

Ciara (06:11.12)

I actually went into art twice, once was the first time I was 16. I want say I wasn't too bad for the demographic compliance.

Spencer Arnett (06:38.026)

drank a fair amount of alcohol. And I recall the biggest problem for me was like a noticeable change in my demeanor to my parents. I was like very violent and angry, which is something that like I wasn't really like that as a kid. So I was such a drastic change in the way that I was acting. I think that was probably the red flag.

Ciara (06:46.266)

biggest problem for me was like a noticeable change in my demeanor to my parents. I was like very violent and angry, is something like I was wasn't really like that as a kid. So I was such a drastic change in the way that I was acting. think that was probably the

Spencer Arnett (07:04.224)

And the second time I went in, I was completely off the rails. I was doing fentanyl and lots of Molly and Xanax and whatnot. And that was when I was 18.

Chuck (07:16.564)

kidding. That just, of course I grew up in Calgary, Well, Calgary in area. And just the idea that at 18, fentanyl is now, like that is so, even to me, you know, and I'm older than yourself and I don't think I'm that freaking old, but how times have changed, right? How times have changed that that's even a thing, you know? Yeah, that's crazy.

Spencer Arnett (07:22.046)

Heh.

Lisa (07:38.593)

Well, even when Ciara was doing her sort of overview, right, and she sang 12 to 21. I'm just like 12, like...

Chuck (07:42.874)

you

Spencer Arnett (07:45.936)

Mm -hmm.

Ciara (07:48.082)

They're babies.

Lisa (07:50.045)

Literally, they're literally babies. And Spencer, can you tell us a little bit just from your experience personally, like you said, you sometimes people are somewhat tricked into going, which I don't think is uncommon with adolescents, but like, what was your experience? Like, how did you end up? Like, were you tricked into it at 16? Did you choose to go at 18? Like, how did that all

Spencer Arnett (08:03.892)

Mm -hmm.

Spencer Arnett (08:15.808)

That's actually exactly what happened. I did choose to go at 18. And at that point, I I knew like how bad my life was and I wanted help. But the first time there's no way I was going to be willing to accept the help. And I'm sure my mom told them that. I recall it being after a math final.

Ciara (08:24.964)

was and I wanted help but first there was no way I was going willing to accept help and I'm trying, my mom told me that so I...

Spencer Arnett (08:42.813)

which I think most of the time the clients we get don't really go to school anymore. But for some reason, I honestly have no idea why I still went. I like definitely wouldn't have even needed to. I think I was so like, I think my mom was so worried about my anger that I'm sure she would have been fine with it. But I still went to school and I came after a math final super hung over.

Ciara (08:43.637)

I think most of the time the clients we get don't really go to school. But for some reason I honestly have no idea why I still want to. I like definitely wouldn't be...

Ciara (09:00.1)

so like I think my mom is so worried about my aunt.

Ciara (09:07.376)

I still went to school and I came after math class super hungover. And this was after I crashed

Spencer Arnett (09:12.83)

And this was after I crashed my car into a snowbank like a couple days earlier. that was kind of the final straw for them. I was more or less insanely drunk and she, my mom picked me up from the math final and I recall asking her, was like, can we go to the dispensary? And weed at the time had just been legalized in Alberta. Like just then it was

Ciara (09:18.392)

So that was kind of the final straw for them. was more or less insanely drunk. my mom picked me up from the math final.

I was like, we go to the dispensary and we at the time had just been, it was in Alberta, like just then, was like a couple weeks prior, so I remember her saying yes, was like, sure, yeah, we can go to the dispensary, was like, really? I had a little bit sketched out, but not too much, I was like, I was like ready to move on right away, and I was like, really?

Spencer Arnett (09:41.674)

couple weeks prior, so I remember her saying yes. She was like, sure, yeah, we can go to the dispenser. And I was like, really? A little bit sketched out, but not too much. was like, to move on right away. I was like, really? Okay then. And she was like, I just gotta run an errand first. And I was like, yeah, take your time. And we pulled up to...

Chuck (09:52.058)

Hahaha

Ciara (10:00.032)

Okay then, you know, and we she was like, just got to run an errand first, and was like, yeah, take your time, and we pulled up to the art, and the place looks like, like an insane sign on her. It was so scary. And she wants to, I think she told me in the host that, she told them.

Spencer Arnett (10:10.08)

to arc and the place looks like an insane asylum room. It looks scary. And she must've, I think she told me in posts that she told them that I was very violent and I was gonna run and that I was a boxer. And so she kind of played me up. I mean, I was 16 year old scrawny kid, but we pulled into the parking lot and my car got surrounded by like

Ciara (10:35.624)

I like, what is going on?

Spencer Arnett (10:39.38)

probably eight or nine humongous guys and I was like what the hell what is happening? You know, I was like what is going on? Yeah, I was like, what is this? This is like the weirdest I was like what the and this guy came and opened my door and he was like, hey, I'm Wade and I was like, hey, Wade, like, how are you doing? Like still didn't really know what was going on, you know, and

Lisa (10:45.733)

Mamas join a gang, right?

Spencer Arnett (11:05.524)

He asked me to link arms, so I linked arms with him and walked inside. Still pretty curious what was going on. And I think like a lot of our clients have been to like P -Chad or some sort of detox or intervention or the psych ward maybe. I had been to nothing. So I had no idea that, like I didn't even consider there might be a rehab.

Ciara (11:05.892)

He asked me to link arms, so I linked arms with him and walked inside. Still pretty curious what was going on. And I think like a lot of our, a lot of

Ciara (11:22.512)

some sort of detox or intervention or psych ward maybe. I had been to nothing, so I had no idea that, didn't even consider that might be rehab. And we walked in and then they started telling me that I was gonna be staying there for a long time. And that's when it hit me. And like I said, my mom told them that I was a

Spencer Arnett (11:34.464)

So we walked in and then they started telling me that I was gonna be staying there for a long time. And that's when it hit me. And like I said, my mom told them that I was a violent kid and all this stuff, but I just started crying. Like I was like, this sucks. And that's very, very common.

Chuck (11:54.606)

I can only imagine. Yeah, no kidding.

Ciara (11:58.414)

Yeah, intake day is hard for everyone at AARC. Like my version of, you know, Spencer talking about the clinical team being there, like for me, that was as a parent, that was such a relief and comfort is probably a bit of a stretch. But just knowing that, like there were people there to back us up on a day like that, it is a day of deception. mean, you're not going to tell your kid who is you're on completely opposite sides of the spectrum.

Spencer Arnett (12:00.638)

Yep. Yep.

Ciara (12:27.95)

when it comes to a day like that. it's just no matter who you speak to at AARC, their intake day involves some amount of white lies just to get through the door, right?

Chuck (12:40.67)

No kidding, eh? No kidding. I can only imagine.

Lisa (12:45.681)

Was there any level, Spencer, of relief?

Spencer Arnett (12:50.112)

Definitely not at first. Definitely not at first. It was many levels of violent anger and I hate my parents and all that kind of line of thinking. I'm sure, I think probably a couple weeks into the program, there's a bit of relief. And I'm not sure whether that was like, I don't have to do this anymore.

Ciara (12:50.416)

Definitely not at first. Definitely not at first. was many levels of violent anger.

Ciara (13:13.818)

whether that was like, I don't have to do this anymore, or was that I was surrounded by like -minded people. I'm unsure, but I do think there's a little bit of comfort in

Spencer Arnett (13:17.408)

Or it was that I was surrounded by like -minded people. I'm unsure, but I do think there's like a little bit of comfort in it, probably a couple of weeks in. I found anyway, some people don't. Some people are like, this place sucks. Most people are like that. And I mean, I wasn't over the moon about being an arc since it's about eight to 10 months. It's very, very long. And that sounds like very scary to most people. And I

Lisa (13:46.311)

What about when the time, sorry, go ahead.

Spencer Arnett (13:49.011)

No, please.

Lisa (13:51.709)

I didn't mean to cut you

Spencer Arnett (13:53.373)

No, I - no worries.

Lisa (13:57.597)

was gonna ask you like, about at the end? Like, did you feel like when, you know, I'm assuming there's like a graduation at the end. Were you suddenly like at that point where you're like, thank God this is over or was there almost fear that it was over?

Chuck (13:57.616)

Why don't you continue with your question there, Lisa.

Ciara (14:01.628)

like did you feel like what, you know, I'm assuming there's like a graduation at the end.

So at that point, were you like, thank God it's over? Or was there, was here that it was over? I think there's a bit of both. Like I think when I graduated, I was down there, I kind of going, is it over? But I think there's, again, typically, and with me, this was true, there's just a lot of gravity involved.

Spencer Arnett (14:15.936)

I think, I think there's a bit of both. Like I think, when I graduated, I was definitely like, thank God this is over. But I think there's a, again, typically, and with me, this was true. There's just a lot of gratitude as well. Like you're just grateful that you are where you are. And like that you, got sober when you do, being so young, cause you have your whole life in front of you

I mean, in the grand scheme of things, if you live 90 years, one year of your life is less than one percent or just a little bit more than one percent of your life. Right. So I think I was

Ciara (14:50.38)

one year of your life is less than when you start off, or just a little bit more than when

Chuck (14:56.084)

Which it's actually funny you say that. It's funny you say that Spencer, because I was just thinking when you get there, this is like 10 % of your life, right? Once you have some perspective, like that is absolutely, because I'm thinking now like 10 months, fuck I've been in Thailand almost 10 months and it seems like just yesterday I got here, right? So like it just, it's nothing, but I'm 47 years old, right? 10 months when I was young, woof, that's a whole new world, right? Like that was forever, right? It was like as forever as you could get. Yeah, yeah.

Spencer Arnett (15:04.37)

yeah, for sure.

Spencer Arnett (15:11.252)

Mm -hmm.

Spencer Arnett (15:19.061)

Mm -hmm.

Yeah,

Chuck (15:24.82)

It's a poor commitment that I'd shown anything ever, that's for sure, right?

Spencer Arnett (15:27.644)

Yeah, well, mean, psychologically, time moves a little bit slower for people who are younger as well. So, yeah, but yeah, I'm, super grateful.

Ciara (15:28.004)

Yeah, and well, mean, psychologically, time moves a little bit slower for people who younger as well.

Chuck (15:34.748)

Of course, of course it does, right? So,

Lisa (15:37.725)

And I remember, I remember this was like a long time ago, Chris, on the show. used to do, like there was an episode where people would send in questions and a question had come in once and it was, you know, who, and I mean, some of this stuff didn't really have an answer, but it was just for sake of discussion. But it was like, who do you think is more difficult to treat or to work with? Young people in addiction or old people in addiction? Okay, well, there you

Chuck (16:03.06)

talking about this pre -recording actually.

Lisa (16:06.909)

And like, that's one of the things like that has come into my head, we've been doing, we've been recording for what 15 minutes, keeps popping into my head. And so I was like, I'm just going to put it out there. But that's like, for me, that question, from the moment I heard the question, it was like young people. Like if I look at when I'm working with people in the hospital, and again, I don't work on adolescent unit. And so like the youngest I would work with would be 18. But if I look at 18 year olds who come into hospital,

often they come in initially because they're psychotic or something, psychotic or suicidal, right? But then if we get that out of the way and then realize that underneath there's this addiction that's there versus 60 year old people who have spent a lifetime in addiction, much harder to reach the young people because they feel invincible. Like you try to tell them, you know, that where their life is going.

You know, we can sit there and see that projection if they don't get help, right? And I just feel like young people tend to be more dismissive of that. That won't be me. I'm not them. They're worse than I am. They'll justify it on the drug. well, I don't do crystal math. So that's not me. Like, there's just so many different avenues that young people can use to minimize and justify their disease.

Whereas when you're 65 years old and your kids haven't spoken to you in 30 years and your wife or your husband left you 20 years ago and you, you you had to declare bankruptcy and now you live on the streets, you're unemployed, it's kind of hard to tell me that it's all going to be okay. But with younger people, it's, I think my experience is it's so much harder and you guys are doing that every day.

Chuck (17:48.916)

Yeah, yeah,

Ciara (17:51.181)

Mm.

Chuck (17:55.654)

It's that terminal uniqueness. Ryan and I have talked about quite a bit lately in our episodes. That terminal uniqueness that all addicts suffer from when they first, you I'm different, right? You guys are all... I mean, there's a million cliches that speak to that. Anybody that's been around recovery for any amount of time will tell you it's the thing. I'm special, right? I'm not like the rest of you, whatever. yeah, when you're young, that's just going to be that much more, you know, present for sure.

Lisa (18:11.047)

Hold on.

Chuck (18:25.628)

I'm really curious for you, Spencer. And we're going to get to a point where it's rather soon here, think, where of course, Ciara and yours stories intersect. But for you, how does it look for those first few days? Like what happens, like actually, like what happens with you while you're there? Like they ship you off to another home? Like how does that process happen? That's kind of what I'm curious about, right?

Spencer Arnett (18:51.476)

Well, yeah, that's exactly what happens is you get sent to a person's house who is further on in the program, another client. when you go into the home, doors are alarmed. you're basically at the center, except it's a lot, a lot homier. There's, there's a family and it's the, beautiful thing about recovery homes in particular is that family aspect

Ciara (19:03.418)

Basically, it's center except it's a lot, a lot. Family and it's a beautiful thing about the family. Is that family aspect sort of feel like you're

Spencer Arnett (19:19.678)

You sort of feel like you have a second family or you start to identify with the families that you go home with and the other clients are feeling

Chuck (19:27.32)

I'm okay. I'm going to interrupt you there because I'm sure I can't imagine it doesn't get to that place. But that first night, that second night, that third night, what's that like for you? That that's what I'm really curious about right now. Right? Like, yeah, yeah. And you're not walking in going, look, it's the Waltons. I mean, you're like you're, know, there's something else going through your mind, right? I would have just dated ourselves. The rest of us know who the Waltons are. You don't have a fucking clue. So I know that.

Spencer Arnett (19:37.576)

Yeah. it's rough. It's rough. Really rough.

Yeah. Yep.

Ciara (19:46.338)

Yeah.

Ciara (19:51.49)

Is it a weird thing?

Spencer Arnett (19:54.586)

So the weird thing like I the really weird thing is I did immediately like feel very comfortable around the families and I'm not sure why that is. Yeah, I'm I have no idea. I don't know why I felt that way, but it is it does feel reasonably comfortable. Like you're not like what what am I doing here? And

Chuck (20:07.262)

What do you attribute that to? okay.

Ciara (20:12.986)

that way but it is reasonably comfortable.

Chuck (20:22.658)

I could venture a guess, would that be because of the other, like the peer, in the peer to peer, right? Because you've got somebody there that's kind of been there and done that so far, right?

Spencer Arnett (20:26.502)

I'd imagine, yeah. I'd imagine.

Yep. And, the first, the first day that I had at the center was just like, mostly I was very confused about everything. Like I was, like I said, I'd never been to the psych ward, peach ad, detox, anything. So it was like, what is going on? And, I think I, I was planning on running, like I was going to run from the center. and so I'd be like sitting on the edge of my chair, like in

Ciara (20:32.154)

Yeah, and the first day that I had it in the center was just like mostly I was very confused about everything. I said, I'd never been in psych ward, D -Jab, detox, anything else. was like, what is going on? And I think I was planning on running like I was gonna run from the center.

and so I'd be like sitting on the edge of my chair like in the wrap room, the therapy room and but I mean staff is quite vigilant and they're on so I didn't really have too many opportunities but I was going to run and I didn't even know where I was going to go for my first day there's a recovery home in Overton

Spencer Arnett (21:01.664)

in the wrap room, is a group therapy room. mean, staff is quite vigilant and they're on you. So I didn't really have too many opportunities, but I was going to run and I didn't even know where I was going to go. But my first day, there was a recovery home in Okotoks and I got put in in January. So it was freezing here. It was like probably minus 30 or

Chuck (21:09.327)

They know what's up. Yeah.

Ciara (21:23.632)

and I got put in in January, so it freezing here, was like probably minus 30 or so, and I was like, well I'm not gonna one pack of calories, like through a snow field, so I was like, I guess I'm through, like I was like, I guess I have to stay here, and the recovery home parents was very,

Spencer Arnett (21:29.734)

And I was like, well, I'm not going to run back to Calgary, like through a snow field. So I was like, I guess I'm hooked. Like I was like, I guess I have to stay here. And the recovery home parent was very welcoming and like, I didn't feel out of place. Like they're sort of like, I know what you're going through and this is really hard and we're like here to get you through the first couple of days. And the first couple of days

were very hard, but I settled into it in the coming week, I want to say.

Chuck (22:05.524)

Okay, so Kara, come back to you now. The first time you bring somebody into your home, what's that? Right, like that's, by now you're how long into the program? A few months I think if memory serves me, right?

Ciara (22:08.228)

Yeah.

Ciara (22:20.77)

Yeah, yeah. So about three to four months into the program and like the whole recovery home component, like it did scare me at first. I mean, it's not particularly a selling point that you get to take drug drug addicts into your home. But I am I'm really grateful for the opportunity to do a podcast on this because what I thought it was going to be and what it actually was.

Chuck (22:31.412)

Of course it did.

Ciara (22:50.862)

when I did it were two completely different things. The first thing that I didn't understand was that the kids are completely abstinent when they come into the homes. And I think, you know, like Spencer says.

Chuck (23:04.733)

Okay, define that completely abstinent. mean, they're there for so Spencer gets there Monday, Monday night he's walking into your home.

Ciara (23:07.812)

So substance free, they're not using.

Ciara (23:14.472)

And for the most part, that would be if he's not under the influence. So sometimes there are depending on where the clients come from, like sometimes they are under the influence arriving at the center. And in that case, they will be taken care of by. Right. Yeah, so in that case, they would stay at the center and be supported by our nursing team.

Chuck (23:29.268)

Well, yeah, I mean, you get a good math bus going. That could take a couple days to, for somebody to come down out of that, right? So yeah.

Chuck (23:39.098)

Okay, okay, okay, okay.

Ciara (23:41.648)

It's still it's still not a residential option, but it can be for the first 24 to 48 hours. Like we make sure that the kids are ready and safe to go to the recovery homes. And so, yeah, about three to four months into treatment, like when Spencer was talking about that, like that level of comfort. So being at the center and then going to the home, I just want to give my parent perspective on that. So I think, yeah, and.

Chuck (23:53.458)

Okay.

Chuck (24:06.683)

That's what I'm looking for here. Yeah.

Ciara (24:10.454)

I feel like the reason, the biggest reason that it works is because these families that have their homes open, so they've been in treatment for three to four months. They're learning about the model. Part of being in treatment is that you're up at the center on Tuesday nights and Friday nights, and you're meeting the other families that are in treatment. You're spending time in group therapy with the kids and with the family. So you're getting to know the kids' story. So they're

complete strangers four months into treatment when you open your home. You know their struggles, you're starting to care for them. And that's where the understanding of addiction as a disease for me was really, important. I could see that these were good kids who had really experimented and didn't have an off switch. And that's the therapeutic component is that, wow, I was learning about my own son's struggles through these kids because I had them in my home.

Chuck (25:09.907)

Yeah.

Ciara (25:10.02)

And I think, you know, three to four months into treatment, you're doing your own work as a parent, working through the impact of that journey on yourself. And, you know, that journey is it's so challenging as a parent. think it's safe to say that, you know, parenting through youth addiction, you're really pushed to the extreme of your personality. Like you have lived in chaos. You have dealt

huge challenges by the time you're even picking the phone up to arc. And I think that's a big part of why the recovery home works, because initially when you go into treatment for those first three to four months, your own child is staying in other homes. So by the time you're opening your own home, you want to give that back. Right. So some other families kept my kids safe for three to four months when when we couldn't as a family, we couldn't we had reached desperate levels.

So the gratitude that builds when there are other families taking care of your child, and then you get to give that back to somebody who's coming into treatment. It just works like the willingness at that point to just be like, okay, I want to provide that feeling for another family. I wanna keep somebody's kids safe.

Lisa (26:35.44)

I can relate to it a little bit, Kira. Again, like back 20 something years ago, my brother had been in a program which was adolescent, you know, similar ages. And again, it wasn't the same model. This was like a live in program, but they would, you know, they built up to being able to go out on passes and weekend passes. But when they would do

they would come home for the weekend with a peer. And it had to be somebody who'd been in the program longer than them. And what I remember too was this like desire to like communicate to this other person that there's no judgment and that, you know, people care and people want to see you succeed and do well.

And was sort of like, remember all the things I had felt towards my own brother. I very much parted that onto this other person. And I remember, like, we did a lot of fun stuff with some of these kids that would come home on the weekends. And it wasn't just like that they were enjoyable to be around, but like we got something out of being able to connect with these other kids and trying in those brief times that we had with them.

to sort of, yeah, try, it was like this desire to want to make that, pick, like lift them up. And so I remember us getting something out of that and it's obviously much smaller and briefer moments than the kind of connection you would build having somebody in your home for, you know, 10 months or whatever it is. But listening to you describe it, I was like, I can relate to that feeling.

of wanting to give back. you know, you don't just want your own sibling or child to be well. You don't want to see any kids suffering through this.

Ciara (28:38.828)

Yeah, and those moments are they're huge and they're they're really encouraged in arc. So just to provide context for what you're saying. kids are at the treatment center for six out of seven days per week. And on a Thursday evening, we finish at five and that's

That's for family night. So all of the recovery home kids go to their homes at five o 'clock on a Thursday evening. They're expected to be part of dinner prep, dinner cleanup. There would be a plan for the evening. So board games, movies, things like that. They're... Sure.

Chuck (29:25.764)

Can I just interject real quick with a question? At this point as a recovery home, your son in your case is back in the home, correct? And he is the peer support for say Spencer at this point when he's coming in. Is that accurate?

Ciara (29:44.319)

Yes and no. So you open your home as a family, you open your home prior to your own child returning. it's almost, yeah, yeah. So three to four months into treatment, you open your home, you start to take kids home. And just to clarify at this point, it's not the same kids that stay in your home for 10 months.

Chuck (29:47.028)

Okay.

Chuck (29:53.958)

Okay, this is exactly what I'm asking. So I'm just trying to get the dynamics straight here. Yeah, okay, okay, yeah.

Ciara (30:10.81)

There are different kids that come to your home all the time. There can be no predictability for either the families or the clients. So it provides different connections. Like you're really, like I know I keep mentioning community in these podcasts, but you really are building connections all around you with families and clients together. You're right.

Lisa (30:11.153)

Okay.

Chuck (30:16.209)

Okay.

Chuck (30:27.614)

But that's, I think that's the magic. That's the secret sauce in what you're doing here, right? So that's, I don't think you can mention it too much, Keir. Don't feel self -conscious about that at all, right? I mean, that's the secret sauce, right? So yeah, yeah.

Ciara (30:36.972)

Yeah.

Ciara (30:40.43)

Yeah, but I think like Spencer says, like, you know, the involuntary component does mean that a lot of clients don't want to be there. So there can't be any predictability for where they're staying or in order for the model to work at its best. But yeah, so initially when you open your recovery home and there's a ton of support, right, with setting up your home.

You have all of the families around you that have been there before you, like they're guiding you through the whole process. You have the accreditation piece. So there is certain standards that need to be met before the home is ready to be opened. So then you open for it. It really all depends like that. The client themselves, the client and treatment has to complete step three of the program or level one. So level one is step one, two and three.

And after step three, that's when they celebrate their homecoming. So they start to spend time back in their own home. By that point...

Chuck (31:40.956)

Okay. But, that's, that's introduced over time. Like that's not a, you're back at home. That's a, that's okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

Ciara (31:47.126)

Yeah, it's a gradual process, It's generally speaking, will, you know, back in their own environment, sometimes those old behaviors come back up the old pattern. So it really has to be gradual. And then there's a huge level of accountability, like going back to the program every morning, if there's anything that has gone sideways or behavioral issues that have kind of

I don't know, come to the surface again by being back. They're dealt with the next morning in the centre.

Chuck (32:19.422)

So now then I want to go back to you Spencer.

That part of it right there.

How is that for you going back into the home? Like, sorry, I'm just thinking about my relationship with my mom and fuck, right? Like how amazing it is now. So for you at, you finished your step three, your level one, you're going back into the home. How is that for you? what, can you speak to that experience at all

Spencer Arnett (32:42.12)

Mm -hmm.

Spencer Arnett (32:47.504)

Yeah, of course. think the biggest thing that I noticed was it wasn't just that I had changed, but both of us had changed quite a lot. And it was very awkward at first, I think, because you're not even really sure what to talk about. You spend so many months away from each other. But it comes back right away. She's still my mom and my stepdad and

my dad, my stepmom, like they're all the same people. They're just, we're all acting maybe a little more principled would be a good way to put it. We're not picking fights and there's still problems, but it's not the same problems at all. And I found like I was able to appreciate the time that I spent with my family a lot more.

Chuck (33:27.23)

I like

Spencer Arnett (33:45.364)

than I used to because it was like I was deprived of it for quite some time. So it was like really nice to be able to just have like a normal family like you're supposed to, I guess. And I just didn't really have that prior dark. Everything was just so crazy all the time. So feels exceedingly normal and exceedingly weird at the same time.

Chuck (34:07.475)

Yeah.

Ciara (34:08.176)

feels

Chuck (34:13.278)

can imagine. I try and sell myself as good weird all the time. It doesn't really cut it most of the time.

Spencer Arnett (34:14.505)

But it's good weird, you

Ciara (34:20.599)

No.

Lisa (34:22.169)

So how many months in is it usually when kids in the program get to start spending some time at their own home?

Spencer Arnett (34:31.616)

The absolute minimum time you could spend to get to step four or level two would be three and a half months on the nose. That's the absolute minimum time, but lots of kids take longer than that. I would say that's very uncommon that you see three and a half months. You usually see closer to four five.

Lisa (34:55.161)

Okay. But so it's around the same time that kids can spend time in their own home as the family has been prepared to start bringing kids into the home. And so around that, like, let's say four month mark, so you're now going to have your own child care coming into your home at times, but then other times it would be other children.

Spencer Arnett (35:06.291)

Exactly.

Ciara (35:20.066)

Right. Yeah. So initially, when you open your home, it's before homecoming. So before your own child comes home. And that can be, again, like Spencer said, it can be dependent on how long it takes for your own child to reach that level three. So initially, when we opened our home, we would have clients for a number of nights. It kind of varies. The schedule varies depending on how many clients.

Lisa (35:20.615)

that right?

Ciara (35:47.234)

recovery homes are open, how many families are in the program at the time. So generally speaking, we would have kids say four to five nights out of seven. And they so they never come home alone. They would always come home with like the newer clients in particular would come home with the client that is closest to graduation. So somebody

Lisa (36:09.949)

So you've actually got two kids coming into your home every

Ciara (36:13.57)

yeah, it can be up to four. The recovery, yeah, the recovery bedroom is set up for four people.

Lisa (36:16.783)

Okay.

Lisa (36:22.171)

And would that be two newbies and two more like experienced peers?

Ciara (36:29.217)

There will always be a balance of support. that's a good way of stepping into the conversation about when the clients themselves come home. So by the time they finish level one, step three, and they're coming home, they now bring a newcomer home as well.

Lisa (36:32.431)

Okay.

Ciara (36:50.468)

So by finishing level three, they earn like that responsibility and they also have that feeling that they want to give back, right? It's not so long ago that they were on step one themselves and struggling. And it's part of the process that they give back what they've learned themselves and they become that message of hope. So there's always a level of peer support, no matter what level the client is asked, there's always a level of peer support that's sent home with them because they've...

They all have lived experience at different levels. And then there's access to the clinical and peer support call line, which is open 24 seven. So they can access support at any time. And if there are struggles in the home, the member of our peer support team or clinical team will come out to the home and support in that way.

Lisa (37:43.069)

And so they, you know, from the first night that they go in and they're needing to come, they need somewhere to sleep that night. What's the reason, and I think you kind of touched on it, but just it still feels a bit vague to me. What's the reason that kids don't go to the same home for the duration of their time at AARC? Why is it that it's different homes, different times?

Ciara (38:09.058)

I think really that

Ciara (38:13.22)

Well, I, and this is my parent perspective. I just feel like any level of predictability for this severe addiction is, it's not good. Like these kids are very, very resourceful. Like you heard Spencer, like they're, this is high risk, high behavioral issues. Like it's not unusual for kids to walk into the home and trying to figure out a way to get out.

but the homes are set up as best they can be to prevent that. So, you know, there are alarms that the alarm is set in the home when you come in and the client is there. And I just feel. don't know, I guess these kids are very, very resourceful. They've they've they they have reached the level where they will do anything to get drugs or alcohol. So.

Lisa (39:07.431)

And what happens when they do get out? What happens when they do run instead of think about it?

Ciara (39:12.452)

And Spencer, I think you would have a better way to answer that than I would if you're okay with that.

Spencer Arnett (39:20.724)

Yeah, of course. on the, to answer your first question as well is there are often problems that clients will have with their recovery home and to prevent, I think the more time you spend with somebody, typically the less you agree with them, sort of like siblings, you know, like,

Ciara (39:35.738)

think the more time you spend with somebody...

Ciara (39:41.136)

sort of like siblings. Especially when you're forced to spend every waking minute of your day with somebody, they just start to get on your nerves.

Spencer Arnett (39:44.692)

Like especially when you're forced to spend every waking minute of your day with somebody, they just start to get on your nerves naturally, right? And some people do better with certain people than others. So you want some variation so that it doesn't get too built up or... And what Kira is talking about, having an unpredictable schedule can also be beneficial. And there's...

There's really a multitude of reasons. I think it makes more sense to have it be unpredictable than not. And to touch on what happens when a kid leaves or runs, it's a good question because it depends on the kid. Let's say we have a kid who has a history of self -harm or suicidality, then we're like calling the cops right away.

There's sometimes APBs put out. Sometimes it gets crazy. I've seen some helicopter searches out for kids that have run before. Entire road blockade strip searches. I've seen some crazy stuff. And I've also seen where the cops are like, we call in and we're like, we don't even know what to say. We'll report a missing persons and they sort of blow us off. And so then the peers like myself will go and

Ciara (40:56.539)

I've seen some crazy stuff and I've also seen where the cops are like we call in and we're like we don't even know what to say. We'll report a missing persons and they sort of blow us off and so then the peers like myself will go and search for this kid and actually a kid run just a little bit ago and I was was up at 445 in the morning like driving around

Spencer Arnett (41:12.672)

search for this kid and I actually had a kid run just a little bit ago and I was up at 4 .45 in the morning like driving around looking for this kid and usually the kid doesn't really know where to go and there's only so long you can stay at a friend's house right before they're like get out and so eventually they'll go back to their parents house.

Ciara (41:26.682)

this kid and usually the kid doesn't really know where to go and there's only so long you can stay in a friend's house right before they get out and so eventually they'll go back to their parents house and from there it's like really up to the parent because sometimes the kid won't be able to manipulate.

Spencer Arnett (41:42.4)

and from there it's like really up to the parent because sometimes, sometimes the, kid will be able to manipulate the, the parent and be like, poke us with spears and they hate us. And I, I'm going to kill myself. I go back something along those lines. And sometimes the parent, well, not put them back into treatment. think the overwhelming.

the overwhelming

Spencer Arnett (42:16.808)

Like it's a lot more common that the kid will come back if they go to their parents. Their parents will bring them back and then usually they're not happy. And yeah, typically, I mean, that's typically what happens is they'll go to a relative's house. It's the same thing with it's what the police will tell you. Like have you checked every relative's house? It's like that. It's like having a missing person out and trying to find

Lisa (42:21.937)

Mm

Lisa (42:42.257)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Spencer Arnett (42:45.28)

but it's a bit of a needle in a haystack, right? Really hard to find a kid once they've run. we're usually, we err on the side of preventative rather than

Lisa (43:01.281)

But I imagine like it sounds really terrible, but I almost feel like, you know, it's like, needing to break them down. Like I imagine kids don't run repeatedly very often, you know, it's, it's one of those things where I could see them running. And when they realize that the whole world is going to do everything they can to get them back there, that they would sort of give in to the process at some point. I don't know if that's what you see.

Chuck (43:01.524)

stands for reason.

Spencer Arnett (43:19.872)

Mm -hmm.

Ciara (43:24.376)

Yeah.

Spencer Arnett (43:24.956)

Yeah. Well, that does like I completely agree. And it does sound weird saying like you the kid needs to be to be broken down. But I think there is and I'm sure I'm sure this isn't news, but there is certainly a level of surrender that you need to have with addiction. And I think

You have to be willing to wave the white flag. Like you have to be willing to be like, can't, I can't beat whatever I have. And it takes time to come to that conclusion and reflecting on your life. And I mean like really reflecting on your life without no, without any context or justifications, just strictly facts and objectivity, being able to look at your life and be like, is my life truly

messed up and usually the answer is yes. Bye.

Chuck (44:25.268)

If you're at a point where you're involuntarily being taken to a treatment center, then I would say, yeah, most certainly. But even then, I'm 47 years old and it took me a long time to come to that conclusion. So it's not to pick on young people, but it's just, listen, when I was 20, I didn't know anywhere near what I do now.

Spencer Arnett (44:30.036)

Mm -hmm.

Chuck (44:51.344)

That's tough to do. It's just tough to do to bring yourself to that point at such a young age.

same time, so much more important to do it than, you

Ciara (45:00.314)

Can I just touch on something that Lisa, you made reference to earlier about like the unpredictability and like, you know, different homes and why we do that, but more around how it works. So the decisions on, you know, what clients are going to what families they're made at the very, very end of each day. And

So there's unpredictability on both sides. So the families don't know until the end of the day what clients are going to their home. And likewise, the clients don't know which families they're going to. And there's multiple reasons for that. But the main reason is that so obviously dealing with this population, there is a very, a very high need for documentation and making sure that everything.

Chuck (45:38.327)

wow. Okay. Yeah.

Ciara (45:52.704)

is noted. mean, you're talking about intense group therapy. They attend three to four intense group therapy sessions every day. In between, the client groups spend a lot of time together. And obviously, with this level of risk and behavioral issues, there can be conflict. So it's very, very important that those decisions are made at the end of the day and you know where everybody's at. You know how, who to match with who and what

home is a good match. So say, for example, a brand new client preference will be given to a two parent home with a garage. Right. So things like that. it's like everything is there is meticulous planning involved in matching parents. So when you get to your home, right. So when a client when a client is new and treatment, they'll be sent home with two peers.

Lisa (46:39.601)

What does the garage have to do with

Chuck (46:44.886)

I know, yeah.

Ciara (46:51.46)

the newest client would be like sitting in the middle of the seat in the car and appear on either side. Because again, high risk, right? So the garage, the whole purpose of the garage is that you drive in, you close the door behind you, and then the clients get out of the car. So meticulous, like at every point, right?

Chuck (47:10.268)

Yeah. I can totally see that. I spent a good chunk of my teen years in juvie and like, I saw that coming as soon as he, as soon as he mentioned it. I can see why you wouldn't have thought that one.

Ciara (47:18.776)

Yeah. Yeah.

Spencer Arnett (47:19.508)

Mm -hmm. Well, like we said about the preventative thing, right? It's a preventative measure taken just in case. I mean, it would be stupid to run from the car if you were going to, but you would be surprised what you were willing to do when you're in treatment for that long.

Chuck (47:40.816)

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, right. Wow.

Lisa (47:43.431)

Yeah. And then, so you mentioned that families are there Tuesday nights and Friday nights. And that's for like education and therapy. But then you also mentioned Thursday nights, there's like a family games night. So how many nights of the

Chuck (48:00.229)

That's inside the recovery homes though, right? That is... Yes, yeah.

Ciara (48:02.719)

That's in the home. generally speaking, generally speaking, a regular day at Ark would be 8am when they are brought to the centre from their recovery homes and they will be picked up at 7 in the evening. Tuesday evening is parent group therapy. So all of the current parents, which that's a mandatory piece of treatment. The parent group have a group therapy session on on Tuesday evenings.

Lisa (48:03.636)

gotcha.

Ciara (48:30.594)

And alongside of that then there is a sibling therapy group.

Chuck (48:35.358)

So if I can ask just specifically about that, Kara, the parent group therapy group is for parents alone? Parents only, okay, okay, yeah, yeah,

Ciara (48:38.095)

Yeah, of course.

Ciara (48:42.48)

Parents only. Yeah, there's there's no involvement from clients in the group therapy session. However, when the parent group come up to the center. So parent group therapy starts at 7 p .m. but the parents come to the center at 6 p .m. and that hour in between gives an opportunity for the clients to share an incident with their parents. So we call them talks.

And so it's an opportunity for the client, which is very beneficial, particularly at the start of treatment. So they share an incident with their parents, their families. Right. So the client is matched with their peer support person. They share an incident with their family. The family support worker is also in the room. There's no conversation. The focus is on really it's really based on TELUS.

the worst that you've done and we'll turn up next week to support you anyway. So it's really an opportunity to clear the slate. An incident, sorry, an incident around their drug use.

Chuck (49:46.46)

So when you say an incident, for an example, there was this time that I stole a car and sold it for dope or something. You're telling your parents something that happened within your using days that will most likely shock them or concern them or whatever. Not with that intent, but with that kind of honesty, I should say.

Ciara (49:58.5)

Yes. Yeah.

Ciara (50:10.05)

Yeah, and generally speaking, mean, right, right. And generally speaking, for the most part, the incidents that were shared with me, I knew like the very, very end of that story. So I knew the return home. I knew that piece. But what I didn't know was what happened to get to that point. Exactly. Yeah.

Chuck (50:15.453)

Okay, okay.

Chuck (50:27.346)

Yeah, well, it's like Spencer said, the parents often know half and that's enough. Right. So I, yo, yeah, yeah. I can only imagine my mom still, you know, still she comes out and you can just, you can just feel her head shaking through the phone as I'm talking, you know, of course. Yeah. Yeah.

Spencer Arnett (50:41.034)

Mm -hmm. Yeah, I got the same thing.

Ciara (50:42.762)

Yeah. Yeah. But it's it's very powerful to have those opportunities. Like I said, it's not an opportunity for conversation. It's more about clearing the slate. And you'd be like, hugs are encouraged at that point. But it's it's it's closely monitored because it really serves a purpose of just I'm going to tell you all of these things that have happened. And

You know, it's an opportunity for the family to say, well, look, we're here, regardless of what you tell us when we come up on a Tuesday or Friday, we're going to come back and we're going to support you through this. And it's in the action rather than a conversation that there can't really be a conversation that early on in treatment, because like Spencer said, like a lot of the clients are there and voluntarily and they, given the opportunity of a conversation, they'll ask to leave.

Lisa (51:37.649)

Hmm.

Chuck (51:38.996)

We're very quickly getting to the top of the hour. And Lisa, I want to give you an opportunity to ask anything else. And if we're going to go over an hour, we know that now, but that's just, that's our reality today. And I'm perfectly okay with that. So I want to give you an opportunity to think of maybe one or two more things that you want to ask. Spencer, I want to jump ahead because there's really one more thing that I want to ask. Because I know Lisa's got stuff on her brain. I can just see it or they're happening.

Ciara (52:05.742)

Yeah.

Lisa (52:08.125)

Smoke coming out.

Chuck (52:08.916)

The way she does. So now you work at Arc.

Spencer Arnett (52:10.965)

Yeah.

Spencer Arnett (52:14.932)

Mm -hmm.

Chuck (52:16.84)

What is your title there and what are you doing these days?

Spencer Arnett (52:18.89)

So I'm an executive peer counselor and I, so I've progressed through, we have a couple different levels of peer before you start getting into your clinical position where you're therapeutic work with the kids before you're just sort of sharing your experience through,

the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous and that's our expertise, right? Our expertise isn't something like DBT therapy. That's not what the peers are doing. The peers are explaining how we get through the 12 steps. And so you start off on just a basic peer level and I spent about a year on that and you move up and you go to junior peer and senior peer.

and then you reach where I am now, which is executive peer. And it's a bit of a middle ground between a senior peer, which is just a senior position of a peer counselor, which again is just 12 step based. so now I'm on, I'm in the in between a clinical and a senior, so I can do both things that they would do. so I can take a more,

a more involved approach on clients now than I used to be able to. But basically what I do on a daily basis is, again, still my expertise is in the 12 steps. So that's what I mainly help people with around and that's what I talk about with them for the majority of it and I will

Ciara (53:41.84)

more involved approach on clients now than I used to be able to. But basically what I do on a daily basis is, again, still my expertise is in the 12 steps. So that's what I mainly help

Spencer Arnett (54:10.016)

I usually try my best to relate everything back to the 12 steps in the best way that I can. But yeah, that's essentially what I do. I'm around to supervise the clients. I'm helping the day run smoothly, some behind the scenes stuff. And of course, I spend a great deal of time just with the clients, with whatever they're doing.

Ciara (54:20.239)

Yeah, that's essentially what I do. I'm around to supervise the clients. helping the day run smoothly. Some behind the scenes stuff. Of course, I spend a great deal of time just with the clients, with whatever we do, and running the therapy sessions, stuff like that.

Spencer Arnett (54:39.634)

and running group therapy sessions, stuff like

Chuck (54:40.616)

Okay.

Okay. Okay. Great. That's amazing that, that, that you're able to take your experience and turn it around and turn it into, I know if you can do what you love, right? It's like, you, if you can be passionate about it. And of course I'm fortunate myself that I get to do that these days myself. Right. So, I can kind of relate to that. And that's, that's, that's rewarding. I'm glad that you get to do that. And it's such a young age too, man. Like that's, that's a great way to start your, your, your work in life is to be, you know, to do what you love.

Spencer Arnett (54:50.302)

Mm

Spencer Arnett (54:54.66)

Mm -hmm.

Lisa (55:11.419)

Mm -hmm.

Chuck (55:12.564)

I'm happy for you that you get to do that. So Lisa, please do. Yeah. Yeah.

Spencer Arnett (55:14.378)

Thank

Ciara (55:14.626)

And if I can just speak to that a little bit. Sorry, Lisa, just before you ask. I Spencer was a huge part of our family's treatment, too. And I just like, you know, I'm listening to Spencer put into words what he does on a day to day basis. And I don't think there are any words to.

Lisa (55:19.696)

Now it's okay.

Chuck (55:26.429)

Okay.

Ciara (55:38.436)

to quite cover how powerful it is to see that peer support component in action, like to observe. And sometimes even just walk past like really small conversations that are happening. Now that I'm at the center a lot and I see the peers connect with the new clients and it's unreal. Like there was a day a few weeks ago where I walked past a peer connecting with a new client and they're having a conversation on what it means to build a credit rating.

And I'm just like, bet the parents have tried that conversation upside down and inside out. it's not it was just like, but it was even the visual of how the client was looking at the peer, like just like a sponge absorbing all of this information. Like, and that's those connections are so, so important that, you know, these kids have like they're learning how to how to live.

Chuck (56:17.375)

It'll never stick this the right way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Chuck (56:30.462)

They sure are.

Chuck (56:35.88)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ciara (56:36.056)

You know, they're navigating life with a new set of tools because they're learning from kids who have turned their lives around. that's, it's really, really powerful to watch. So very grateful for you, Spencer.

Chuck (56:46.952)

That's amazing.

Chuck (56:52.66)

Right, Lisa, I'm gonna let you get anything else off your chest. okay.

Lisa (56:55.321)

I actually just wanted to like share something. So I, I know somebody who I encouraged to reach out to Arc. And we were actually, Kira, funnily enough, I think it was we were recording the first podcast, and I was on my phone going, you need to call this program. And then over the following number of weeks,

Ciara (57:15.426)

Right.

Lisa (57:24.209)

you know, as they were sort of having some meetings and learning about the program and gathering information, I would check in and be like, how's it going? And one of the text messages I got back and it like hit me like a train. One of the texts I got back was, it's a huge family commitment.

Ciara (57:24.996)

they were sort of having some meetings, or something like that, and gathering information. I would check in and be like, boy. One of the text

Ciara (57:48.161)

Absolutely.

Lisa (57:50.513)

And I said, the alternative is as big

Ciara (57:58.318)

Mm

Lisa (57:59.887)

and far more heartbreaking. Because the reality is this disease is a family commitment. And you can fight it together or you can die together. But it stood out to me as something that a lot of families who call you guys probably get overwhelmed by. You know, and again, they're dealing with an adolescent in addiction

Ciara (58:03.47)

Yeah.

Chuck (58:09.555)

Yeah, it is.

Ciara (58:16.334)

But it stood out to me as something that lot of families who call you guys would probably get overwhelmed by. You and again, they're dealing with an adolescent in addiction. So yeah, it's at a bad place when they're calling her, but it's still year one, year four, year two. And I just like, I almost jumped through the phone.

Lisa (58:28.893)

So yeah, it's at a bad place when they're calling AARC but it's still year one, year four, year two. And I just like, I almost jumped through the phone when I got that text message. know, like we're in a good place now, 25 years

Chuck (58:54.9)

And most of that 25 years was not a good place.

Lisa (58:54.928)

And

No. You know, there were moments, but there was a lot, a lot, a lot of shit and a lot of tears and a lot of fear and a lot of heartache. And, you know, for parents, for siblings, for spouses, for children, it's like the train of destruction will grow.

Ciara (59:11.76)

And for parents, for siblings, for spouses, for children, it's like the train of destruction will grow. So if you're a 16 -year -old and yes, it's cause and effect for mom and dad or brother sister, we'll just wait until they're 36 and they've made babies and they've got spouses.

Lisa (59:21.405)

So if you have a 16 year old and yes, it's causing heartache for mom and dad or brother or sister, well just wait until they're 36 and they've made babies and they've got spouses and that train of destruction, it just gets bigger and bigger and bigger. But it was also such a powerful text message because I thought that is what people worry

Spencer Arnett (59:43.272)

Mm -hmm.

Lisa (59:50.225)

That is what families who have not done this, that is probably representative of what they're thinking. It's like, holy shit, this is a huge family commitment.

Ciara (01:00:00.452)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And treatment at art is extremely intense. It is, but that's I

Lisa (01:00:01.885)

And when you have been on this journey for 20 years, you just want to shake your head, shake them, shake whatever. And it's just like, sorry to say, but you are on the train of family commitment now. Choose the train, you know, because you can.

Chuck (01:00:20.173)

You might as well just, yeah. Yeah, right. Right. Well said, Lisa. Yeah.

Spencer Arnett (01:00:21.896)

Mm -hmm.

Ciara (01:00:28.418)

I absolutely agree. So was your alternative. Right. And you guys know where where we came from as a family. Like there was there was no question about what direction this was going in for us. However, I will say that not every family have reached that level. But like intervention is a preventative to reaching that level. And, know, you guys met Dr. Valls a number of weeks ago and he will

Lisa (01:00:28.455)

But so is untreated addiction. You

Ciara (01:00:58.41)

often say there, you know, there is no easier, softer way at this level of addiction. It's intense or nothing. Like what are you willing to do? Right. And absolutely there is a very, very heavy involvement for a family. but it's, it's, it's a way of preparing you for living with whatever, whatever avenue this takes.

Chuck (01:01:09.704)

Yeah.

Ciara (01:01:28.016)

post -treatment because, you know, and I am very proud to speak to the fact that research shows that the AARC model is 73 % successful. However, I never say that 73 % without mentioning the 27%. And it's very emotional because through the recovery home process, we get very, very connected to our community.

So that 27 % conversation is just as important as the 73 % because we learn through treatment that these kids are sick. And I think the family involvement piece is so important for that reason that we understand what we're dealing with. it's, there can't be half measures when your kids is so, and Dr. Lisa, you mentioned earlier, like 12 year olds immersed in addiction. It's just heartbreaking.

It's literally taken over their lives, their families life. it's. It the only answer is intent treatment at this intense level. And I, yeah, I mean, I know that treatment at arc on paper, you read about it, you learn about what's involved. And I agree, some families are just like, whoa, this is too much. We can't. And it's it's like, well. Well, what then? What? Yeah.

Chuck (01:02:52.276)

But let me fast forward a tape. Yeah. Let me fast forward that tape for you. Right? And you know what it looks like. It looks like if it goes untreated.

Lisa (01:02:53.693)

Call us when you realize the alternative is no better.

Ciara (01:03:01.102)

Yep.

Lisa (01:03:01.149)

And the problem too, right, as we often talk about on the show, Chris, is that the other thing is it's not 20 years ago and fentanyl exists and carfentanyl exists. And so the other thing is that if you delay intensive help for these kids, you risk that they're just not gonna be around anymore to help them when you realize that you should have.

Spencer Arnett (01:03:26.1)

Mm -hmm.

Chuck (01:03:26.26)

I literally had a memorial, my mom messaged me while we've been recording looking for the episode we did for her back in, back episode 45. Like what? Like, just, just too many of them, right? Yeah. Yeah. Right. So, ah, fuck.

Lisa (01:03:37.533)

Yep. But yeah, so big family commitment. But if you're listening to this podcast, your family is already on the big commitment train. You're there.

Ciara (01:03:43.087)

Absolutely, for the right reasons.

Ciara (01:03:48.968)

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck (01:03:49.202)

You're there. You're there. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Spencer Arnett (01:03:51.732)

You know, I think a lot of families, a lot of families, their argument, like you were talking about, is they'll go like, my kid isn't bad enough yet, or it's a rationalization often, because there is like some normality in doing drugs, specifically weed and alcohol, which is a large portion of our demographic that is considered normal

today's society. And I think most parents are like, they're just experimenting or not most parents. Some parents are like, they're just experimenting. Why would we bother? This is a huge commitment and there's other alternatives, right? And they, they just don't know how, just how much help a kid will need, you know? and I'm sure that can be difficult. Obviously I haven't been on, on that side of the street, but I do also agree like

Ciara (01:04:39.376)

is how much help I'm getting.

Spencer Arnett (01:04:50.784)

A lot of people don't really realize how serious this can be as well. And I think we've probably all experienced the seriousness. I'm quite passionate about this subject too, because you just, you never see it coming until it happens. And then you wish you had done something about it, you

Lisa (01:05:15.997)

Totally, totally. Like I feel like, yes, my words and your words, like, I can say them, you can say them, I feel 100 % the same way. And I feel like, you know, when you've been on the journey, and you then you see other people in the early days, it's like, I feel like it's like watching a train train wreck in slow motion. And you're just screaming going, trust me, like, trust me. And it's interesting, because I often feel like with

Ciara (01:05:31.128)

the other people in the early days. It's like I feel like I'm watching a train wreck in slow motion and you're just screaming going, trust me. And it's interesting because I often feel like, Tierra, and I get it, but there's this attempt to sort of almost justify what this program does. And it's like, yeah, it's intense, but yeah, it's intense, but. And because I'm sure you do that in the past.

Spencer Arnett (01:05:36.532)

Mm -hmm.

Lisa (01:05:45.999)

here, like, and I get it, but there's this attempt to, to sort of almost justify what this program does. And it's like, Yeah, it's intense, but yeah, it's intense, but and, because I'm sure you do that, and you have to do that with these families day in and day out. And for some reason, just hearing it, maybe it's because it's somebody I know.

Maybe it's because I felt like I was like looking back in my own history, you know, 20 something years back, like very similar stories. But those words just hit

Chuck (01:06:19.636)

Like if you could, if you could go back, if you could go back 20 years and say, there's a 73 % chance that if I commit to this for a year, the next 20 is not gonna happen the way that it happened, right? You're gonna, you're gonna, every time, like every time, right? You know, without a shadow of a doubt, right? Yeah.

Lisa (01:06:35.837)

every time. Yeah. And, and, you we were the same. Like we, when it, when it was the cocaine and the ecstasy, there were the exact same statements Spencer just said. you know, yeah, we got to watch it. But, you know, it's experimenting, you know, just the, it's, you know, it's a party phase. They're good kids, you know, because it was, it was the whole hockey team, right? It started out as the hockey team. It's just, you know, my brother was the one who couldn't turn the switch

Ciara (01:06:37.486)

Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck (01:06:48.798)

course.

Ciara (01:07:05.485)

So much justified. Right? young, so experimenting. It's just, just, we need it. Like all of those just.

Lisa (01:07:05.521)

right? And so it was, it was so much justifying, right? They're young, they're experimenting. It's just, it's just we, like all of those justifications, heard them, heard them, heard them, heard them. And, but yeah, it's just like, if you find yourself wondering and questioning if you should be doing something, you probably should be doing something. You know, it's like I say

Ciara (01:07:20.12)

It's just like, if you find yourself wondering and questioning if you should be doing something, you probably should be doing something. Yeah. It's like I say that.

Chuck (01:07:29.138)

Because like, like we go back to the beginning of the episode because yeah, you don't know, you know, a very small portion of what's actually happening. So if you're, if you're at a point typically right where, where you're wondering about it, then yeah.

Lisa (01:07:33.916)

Right?

Lisa (01:07:41.563)

Yep. Yep.

Ciara (01:07:42.318)

And I think as well, just, you know, to speak to, you know, having made those phone calls as a parent, like it's, think, sometimes it can be so evident to everybody outside the family unit that, you know, my gosh, get that kid to treatment, picking up the phone to a place like arc, there are also things that a parent needs to admit or they are admitting by picking up the phone. So it's

You know, when you don't understand addiction, which I didn't prior to attending treatment, and I'm very grateful for that component, but now I do and I know how to support in a different way. But picking up the phone, really as a parent, you're admitting, you're admitting that your child is immersed in addiction. You're admitting for the most part and before you're educated, I guess, on this journey to yourself at that time, you're admitting that you're a moral failure.

You're admitting that, my gosh, like, why am I the parent who has not been able to effectively deliver that message of don't do drugs? Haven't we told you not to do drugs? There's a whole layer of things that you have to admit before you're picking up the phone. Never mind walking through the door of long -term treatment, picking up the phone as a parent. It's like,

Chuck (01:08:47.292)

Wow, yeah.

Chuck (01:08:56.956)

If I can be that guy though, Kira, I want to jump on that for a second. You think you're admitting you're a moral failure. You think you're that parent. Those things aren't true. But I appreciate what you're saying, that that's what you feel like you need to be doing. it's, no, you're not a failure at all as a parent, right? But yeah, I can appreciate that that's where the mindset must be when you pick up that phone, right? As much as I can try and empathize with that, but I just, yeah.

Ciara (01:09:07.353)

It's the judgment.

Ciara (01:09:21.55)

Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (01:09:24.477)

Like I actually had a good friend over a few days ago, you know, our kids play together and she's an incredibly kind person, has a good heart, doesn't understand addiction, but certainly knows my passion for it. And we were talking about something and she made this comment sort of passively about, we were talking about a kid with addiction struggles and she said, well, obviously something in that kid's home is not working for

And again, that, and it was just like, kind of shocked me, but it was this, and she didn't mean harm by it, but that stigma that if a kid is struggling with addiction, there's something wrong in the home. And there are plenty of cases where that's true. But by default, no, it doesn't mean that their home is bad. It doesn't mean that there's something in the home that's bad for them.

Ciara (01:10:01.818)

didn't mean to firm by it, but that stigma that if a kid is struggling with addiction, there's something

Yeah.

Chuck (01:10:12.158)

So not true.

Lisa (01:10:23.953)

You know, so it's just crazy, like, yeah.

Chuck (01:10:25.074)

Yeah. It's, it's, it's, I made a meme recently, Lisa, and I don't, I'm not sure if you caught it. It's you inspire it. Those types of memes, something, the effect of if, if you were able to use alcohol and substances recreationally, that has a lot more to do with luck than any other damn thing. Right. And it does, it just does. It's absolutely, you know, like if you can have a drink and stop, that's just luck. Sorry.

but it doesn't make you better than the guy who can't. Luck is by far the biggest factor in that, I believe anyway, and think you would agree, right? We've talked about that at length in the show, right? So, yeah.

Lisa (01:11:02.269)

Totally. Totally.

Lisa (01:11:07.623)

And I think the other thing here that I think my parents would say, certainly my dad, is that having to reach out for the sort of help that AARC offers is also to admit that you cannot fix your own family. You can't protect your child. You can't make your child better. And I think that's another thing that can be really difficult for parents.

Ciara (01:11:24.558)

Yeah.

Ciara (01:11:35.222)

Absolutely. And that's why the involvement in treatment is so important, because, you know, we see the level of guilt and shame that surrounds the clients coming into treatment. But that has a knock on effect with everybody, all the impacted family members, too. Like there's a level of guilt and shame. These are not conversations that you're just walking around the community having with people. It's like to get to that level and find the number and get

the, even hear about Arc, like by the time somebody is recommending Arc, there's a huge level of guilt and shame involved for, for everybody. And then a huge sense of relief to go into treatment and sit with somebody who has also got this like really, really high risk journey to reach this level of treatment. I think that's what was the most eyeopening thing for me is when I connected with other parents who had just been on these horrendous journeys.

And then, you know, you're sitting in long term drug treatment just going, how, what happened? Like, how are we here? Like everybody's tail is between their legs coming through the doors of AARC, everyone. And that's why connection becomes so important, not only for the clients, but for the family members too. So yeah, your life goes on hold for eight to 10 months, but for all the right reasons.

Chuck (01:13:02.388)

Lisa, you're to have to get over there. If I was in Calgary, you and I would be going over there, but you're going to have to get over there. Yes, yes. wish I don't wish I was still in Calgary. If I was in Calgary, I would wish that I could go with you. But yeah, I'm quite, quite content here in Thailand. Yes. Yes. We're rent is $200. So anyway.

Lisa (01:13:05.253)

I know.

Ciara (01:13:06.025)

Please do. We'd love to have you there.

Lisa (01:13:09.413)

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Spencer Arnett (01:13:10.11)

We'd love to have you, yeah.

Lisa (01:13:21.425)

Yes, definitely.

Ciara (01:13:25.488)

We are working on making a virtual tour of AARC over the coming weeks, so we can send that to you to keep you going, Chris, before you come back to Calgary.

Chuck (01:13:33.885)

Lisa (01:13:35.215)

I

Chuck (01:13:39.561)

That's never happening.

Ciara (01:13:40.238)

My mom is so

Lisa (01:13:40.487)

I know my mom, my mom is so funny. My mom is always like, Chris is gonna come back. I just know, I just have this feeling Chris is gonna come back. I'm like, I don't know why you're even thinking about where Chris lives, but okay.

Spencer Arnett (01:13:41.162)

Hahaha

Chuck (01:13:45.831)

you

The odds are much better that Sharon, mom, comes to Thailand to visit me than me coming back to Calgary. The odds are much better of that happening. So just let her know, she's welcome. I got a spare bed now, whatever. Anyway, let's move into what is my favorite part of the show. Of course, that is the daily gratitudes.

Ciara (01:13:48.698)

They aren't even thinking about where Chris lives.

Ciara (01:13:58.001)

yeah.

Lisa (01:14:01.393)

Yeah.

Chuck (01:14:16.304)

And Daily Gratitudes today are brought to you by ARK, actually. It's your turn in the rotation for Daily Gratitudes sponsors. So we've heard all about that. I don't need to do my little spiel about it right now because you guys are awesome. And that's what we've been talking about. So, well, we start with you, Gier, what you got for some Daily Gratitudes.

Ciara (01:14:21.111)

Awesome.

Ciara (01:14:35.514)

Sure, as always, a ton of options to choose from, but I think today I'm most grateful for my family. I always make reference to that borrowed time and second chance, but my family unit is just incredibly important. We have some family visits coming up. We are very, very lucky that we have people that we miss on both sides of the world.

Yeah, family is huge to me. Family is everything.

Chuck (01:15:07.25)

Awesome, awesome. Spencer, what you got for some gratitude?

Spencer Arnett (01:15:10.952)

Again, there's so much to choose from. think the thing that I have been most grateful for for the past two years, three years has been the relationships that I've been able to build in my life, my friends, my family. Just that connection has been so important to me. And I think it's something I try to take with me everywhere I go and with everything I

Chuck (01:15:38.1)

Awesome. Lisa, what you grateful for today?

Lisa (01:15:41.837)

family. And in particular, I had my my brother's kids out here for a week. Staying with us and my niece and my daughter went to camp together at a farm and but it was really nice to get to spend time with them. And, you know, with them here, I was also chatting to my brother more often. And, you know, when you know somebody well, right, you can hear in their voice.

Chuck (01:15:51.443)

cool.

Lisa (01:16:11.385)

if they're well or they're not well. And being able to just have had more chats with him lately and hearing how good he sounds and spending time with my niece and nephew.

Chuck (01:16:24.006)

Awesome.

Chuck (01:16:27.476)

Myself, I'm internet. I just spent a week without recording, which has not happened in 260 episodes. I have not gone a week without recording an episode. Not even when I moved to Thailand. I think it was like three days gap in there. So I'm pretty stoked about having my internet back up and running, which was awful for me. But a nice little break too, I'm not gonna lie. I've missed you Lisa, so thank you.

Lisa (01:16:56.401)

Yeah, same.

Chuck (01:16:56.84)

Right? Yeah. I'm also grateful to every single person who continues to like, comment, share, watch, talk about all the things on the platform. We are growing faster and faster every day. Now it's just like we're experiencing an explosion of growth that I never thought possible and it's pretty amazing stuff. So every time anybody does any one of these things interacts with the content, you're helping me get a little bit closer to living my best life. My best life is to continue making making

is to continue making a humble living spreading the message. And the message is this. If you're in active addiction right now, today could be the day that you start a lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call in to detox, go to a meeting, pray, go to church. I don't care. Do whatever it is you gotta do to get that journey started, because it is so much better than the alternative. And if you have a loved one who's suffering an addiction right now, you're just taking the time to listen to this conversation. If you just take one more minute out of your day and text that person, let them know they are loved.

Use the words.

Ciara (01:17:57.987)

You are loved.

Lisa (01:17:58.523)

You are loved.

Spencer Arnett (01:17:58.588)

You are loved.

Chuck (01:18:01.544)

That little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings them

Boom.