260 RYAN BATHGATE

Chuck (00:01.748)

Hello everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds. Welcome to another episode of the Ashes to Awesome podcast. I'm your host, Chuck LaFlange checking in from Krabi, Thailand, halfway around the world in virtual studios. My good friend and co -host, Ryan Bathgate in Mission BC. How you doing today, Ryan?

Ryan Bathgate MA (00:17.249)

I am hot, man, I'm hot. It's hot. I'm hot. It is like Mars out there right now. Like I literally come out of air conditioned stores and everything like starts melting and everything starts slowing down. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we're in it.

Chuck (00:21.172)

I can relate.

Chuck (00:35.028)

This has been my reality for so long now, right? Yeah. It's funny, because I've been on a no air conditioning for the last like 24 hours. I just turned it on so we recorded this podcast without me sweating and being all gross, right? But my electric bill is higher than my rent, right? Considerably higher than my rent. So I'm like, okay, no more air con, right? So I got a big fan. I'm just waiting for them to deliver a big fan, the one that I'm using to borrow, but.

Ryan Bathgate MA (00:52.609)

Ha!

Chuck (01:04.468)

trying to get by with just that and it sucks. It sucks.

Ryan Bathgate MA (01:07.713)

Yeah, I guess I got central air. I got I got air in my truck I got you know, but you know I went and hit a bucket of ball state and Chipped around a little bit chipping is I need a lot of work on that part of my game However Played comox last week played glacier the base course and me my buddy Nate and I had a really good round. I gotta say

Chuck (01:13.204)

Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (01:16.333)

Hehehehe

Chuck (01:36.628)

Good stuff. Good stuff.

Ryan Bathgate MA (01:36.673)

I hit some good putts and yeah, man. I mean, you know what? Getting real or a little under the surface, it is a spectacular event to be in this space of existence right now.

Chuck (01:53.364)

okay.

Ryan Bathgate MA (02:02.337)

You know, I know this exists, but I don't know if I've ever been in this space before. And most of you, probably because of wisdom more than anything, like experience and knowledge. And well, I guess there's a couple of things. One thing that is guaranteed different is that there is no 2 % I wonder or 5 % I wonder if I'm actually an addict or an alcoholic, you know, like.

that has been completely put to bed. And there is no doubt in my mind that I cannot consume alcohol or drugs like somebody who doesn't have a substance use disorder. And so I think that that has given me a lot of like freedom or release or something. And the way that the universe conspires,

Chuck (02:31.892)

Okay.

Ryan Bathgate MA (02:59.713)

Is it was it I mean I use that word objectively because it does it both ways. I mean I got here for a reason and that was a product of a lot of shitty things that I did whether it be lying or You know most most of it boils down to dishonesty based on fear and so like what's really shifted is that

Chuck (03:19.54)

Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (03:24.001)

It's not even that the dishonesty has been removed. The dishonesty is a byproduct. What's been removed is the fear of living. The fear of, you know, all of those little things. Not measuring up, not being good enough, people finding out, which is the big one, you know, like, what if people figure out that I'm not as smart as I'm trying to pretend like I am? Then who am I, you know? And like...

Chuck (03:32.532)

Okay.

Chuck (03:41.428)

Of course it is.

Chuck (03:45.812)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (03:50.466)

You know, we have these things that disconnect us from other people. And when I think about what those things are, those things are all very self -driven. And they are dishonesty, having secrets, lacking integrity, lacking transparency, really lacking an ability to be.

honest with myself and portray that version of myself to the world. And there's an immense amount of fear that's all wrapped around that when it's outside of my awareness. And that's so that when we think about the dialectic opposing arrogance versus self -worth, you know, that teeter totter.

Chuck (04:22.004)

Okay.

Ryan Bathgate MA (04:34.785)

When we look at the things that promote the arrogance, which are the things I just named, which are the lack of honesty, lack of presence, lack of integrity, lack of compassion, lack of understanding, you know what I mean? Like all that selfish, selfishly driven stuff. When that stuff is transformed, it turns into the exact opposite, which makes a teeter -totter go the other way. So my self -worth goes up, my arrogance goes down.

Chuck (05:00.244)

Of course.

Ryan Bathgate MA (05:03.201)

But what is not dialectically opposed but actually is in concert with is the humility factor. And so when my ego is low, my humility goes up. And those two are kind of opposites, don't hold the same space at the same time. So I'm in this space right now that it's like, I don't know if it's about being broken down and born anew. I don't really like that philosophy. I don't like the breakdown thing. But the reality is, it's like,

Dude, I was in a jail cell with, well, like, you know, it was the only, and it's the only place that I would have come to the realization that I am through and through substance use disorder to the T. There's nothing unique about me. You know what I mean? Like, and, and then, and then it was like, whoa, shit, like.

Chuck (05:34.388)

pretty broken down, right? You know, yeah. With the prospect of losing your family forever, right? Like that's, yeah, yeah, right, yeah.

Chuck (05:48.788)

Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (05:56.929)

Self -self -centered to the core means that I put myself and what I want ahead of the things that I love, which are obviously my family. And then it was all that old saying, whatever you put in front of your recovery, you will lose. Well, I can't argue with it. As much as I'd want to, I can't argue with that statement, because that's exactly what was going to happen if it wasn't for the beautiful nature of people in my life and their ability to see through, see past.

Chuck (06:15.252)

course.

Ryan Bathgate MA (06:25.185)

It does help. It's interesting because it is a really tough sledding to deal or to navigate with people that just don't understand substance use disorder. And it's really easy to tell the people that do because they see the human being behind the behavior. The people that don't understand it see the behavior.

Chuck (06:37.78)

Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. Yep. Yep.

Chuck (06:48.148)

Well, and you know, and we'll talk about that real quick. And it's something that we talked about, we record. So thank you for kind of getting to that place with me. But is the you know, a big advocate for people carrying Narcan from the early days in the show, I kind of got away from doing that as a PSA. I'm bringing that back in actually as of this episode. We'll be back into doing the PSA about carrying Narcan. I think it's a really important element. Not sure why I got to you know what I got away from it because of laziness, because it was extra work to cut it into the episode. And

Ryan Bathgate MA (06:53.889)

Hmm.

Ryan Bathgate MA (07:05.441)

Mm -hmm. Excellent.

Ryan Bathgate MA (07:17.089)

Well, hold on. Well, hold on though. I don't want to kick that too far because let's look at the body of work. I don't want you to beat yourself up over something stupid like that. Okay. I don't like the word lazy. That's what it is.

Chuck (07:17.652)

which is kind of ridiculous.

Chuck (07:26.004)

No, no, and I don't. It's the reality. I acknowledge that that's why I did it and I just kind of carry on from it. Right. So, yeah. Yeah. Well, OK. It was it was not wanting to do that little extra work. So you can call on whatever you want. Right. But, you know, yeah. Fair enough. Fair enough. OK. So but let's not dwell on that too much, right, because I'm not beating myself up for it. I'm just like, let's get back to it and be good with that. Right. So but what that

Ryan Bathgate MA (07:37.505)

How about close to capacity?

Ryan Bathgate MA (07:43.265)

Asset lens.

Alright, bye.

Chuck (07:56.372)

one of the best ways I have to help people to pass that message along is not just inside the podcast, but on the platform and social media, right? So I made an ad and I actually bought, like I boosted it, which is a very rare thing. It's not in my budget to do these things, as you well know. But I thought it was just one of these things that's really important, right? Like, please just carry Narcan. We have a guest of mine from a long time ago, episode two.

Ryan Bathgate MA (08:02.913)

Mm -hmm.

Chuck (08:23.636)

No, 171, I think it is. Joy McClerk Harrison, who lost her son at 21 to an overdose. Shortly thereafter, she is at home, notices kind of a traffic jam happening in her residential neighborhood because somebody is like stopped at the stop sign and not moving. She gets curious. The guy is overdosed at the steering wheel. She has Narcan.

Ryan Bathgate MA (08:28.481)

crazy that was a long time ago.

Chuck (08:53.076)

She passes it out like candy on Halloween. So she's always got some around. She runs out. I don't think she administered it. She gave it to somebody like a nurse that happened to be on scene or whatever. And they saved his life. If you can imagine, like this is somebody who's lost their son. So like that whole full circle, I think that's beautiful that she did that. But it's just one of those examples. She's at home, right? In suburbia, assumably, whatever. And.

all of a sudden she's got the Narcan that saves somebody's life, right? So it's like, you know, I think Kyle or, you know, Carl, my old cohost, Carl, is one that coined it, you know, you might not plan on being around opioid use, but you never know when it's gonna be around you. And you just don't, right? You know.

Ryan Bathgate MA (09:35.84)

I got it in my house, I got it in my truck. I don't use opiates.

Chuck (09:39.028)

Yeah, yeah. No, right, right. I mean, in these days, the odds of you being around it are down from where they were when you were like working right in the in the. But it's still very possible. Why not? Yeah, yeah, if you can, like if you can think of a reason why not, I'll give you five more. That's how you should write like there's there's just no reason in the world that you shouldn't carry it. Right. I feel.

Ryan Bathgate MA (09:49.313)

Yeah. Why not? Just why not?

Ryan Bathgate MA (10:04.321)

Yeah, I'm not gonna say anything.

Chuck (10:04.884)

Most of the reaction to that post, that ad, that whatever, that content has been extremely positive, as you might, I'm sure. But then there's that vocal minority of horrible, hateful things. You know, and you just, it's awful what people still, still. And it's hard because my world is full of recovery. And like you said, people get it, right? That have been around it enough or that have experienced SUD.

Ryan Bathgate MA (10:10.305)

Mm -hmm.

Chuck (10:34.772)

They get it. So I think it's really easy to just feel like everybody should get it. And then all of a sudden you put something like that out to the public and you see how many people just don't. It's horribly sad.

Ryan Bathgate MA (10:48.161)

Yeah, I mean, it's like me having an opinion on cricket. Like, I don't understand it. How can I possibly have an opinion? Like, you know, I could come up with, but regardless, again, like I said before, it's like, when you understand what people go through, not just SUD clients, but the families, everything that's connected, I always say it's a nuclear orbit that destroys everything in its path. That's what, it doesn't care.

Chuck (10:52.564)

Right.

Chuck (11:14.836)

Sure does.

Ryan Bathgate MA (11:17.537)

And so it certainly doesn't care about those shitty opinions. You know, like none of that. It just, it doesn't. For me, it just, it's all I hear when I hear that is I hear a statement of ignorance that for me calls for empathy, compassion, because to be, to have an opinion in something you don't really understand or know anything about.

Chuck (11:18.196)

Yeah.

Chuck (11:21.684)

Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (11:43.361)

to me, that's like, it's insecurity at its best. I mean, you're trying to be heard on something that you don't have any business talking about. You know what I mean? And so, yeah, I don't even get angry anymore. It's just like, that's sad. That's too bad that person thinks like that. That sucks. You are, and you know what? Don't ever change, man. You know?

Chuck (11:51.412)

Fair enough, right? Fair enough, right? So, yeah.

Chuck (11:59.028)

I try not to, that's something that I need to work on, right? But I just, you know, I get passionate pretty quick, right? You know, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, getting angry doesn't serve anything much less myself, right? So, you know, like ever.

Ryan Bathgate MA (12:13.473)

Okay, then then evolved, evolve organically. How about that? You know, yeah.

Chuck (12:22.548)

another crazy thing. I remember before we were recording, I said, there's this thing that I wanted to say to you. I just remembered it. So, as I was driving along, I've, you know, I've, I've moved now I'm into the new place. I got my scooter with Sunny back up and running. So we're cruising around all over down here again, Sunny in the sidecar. And, the thing about what I'm driving with Sunny is I drive much slower for obvious reasons, but because I have to, because I have the sidecar on and you know, it's, it's very different than driving a scooter by yourself.

Ryan Bathgate MA (12:27.553)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (12:36.961)

Boo!

Ryan Bathgate MA (12:51.745)

Mm -hmm.

Chuck (12:52.244)

So it allows me to think more. I don't have to like stay hyper focused on every meter of the road in front of me all the time. You know what I mean? It allows me to kind of go into my own thoughts a bit more, right? You know, of course, of course it's beautiful. Where I live now is a four lane highway right out front of me. It's like it's country living, man. It's crazy. It's crazy. Yeah, it's beautiful. Absolutely beautiful.

Ryan Bathgate MA (12:59.105)

It kind of seems like you do anyway though, with that. Keep on, just keep...

Keep your eye on the road still.

Ryan Bathgate MA (13:20.353)

Strathmore 2 .0.

Chuck (13:22.164)

Damn near, damn near, man. Yeah, yeah. It's just, it's so beautiful. It's even more country than where I was and where I was was like very small town. So eight minutes from the beach, it's yeah, it's something else. But as I'm driving along, I was thinking about this conversation that I had with a fella I met at Thai language. He's the only Canadian that I've met there from Victoria. So you're part of the world, right? And we're talking and his name's Dave and he says, so what'd you do back in Canada? And this, you're,

Ryan Bathgate MA (13:30.081)

Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (13:44.193)

Yeah? I like them already.

Ryan Bathgate MA (13:51.233)

.

Chuck (13:52.052)

you're gonna think this is interesting. I said right like without even thinking, I was a piece of shit.

Ryan Bathgate MA (13:58.625)

I thought you were gonna say like I was a illicit broker.

Chuck (14:01.108)

No, no, I was a piece of shit. I was a drug addict. What? Like I said that. I said that about myself. Right. And right away I was like, whoa, what just happened? Right. Like you can't know. Right. Like I was like and I tried to correct myself, but I was kind of caught up in the fact that I had just said that it was a really awkward nanosecond for me, probably much more so than it was for him. We get to talk in.

Ryan Bathgate MA (14:10.049)

Wow.

Ryan Bathgate MA (14:13.601)

Freudian is what happened.

Chuck (14:27.892)

Well, doesn't this fellow, he lost his son to overdose at 27 years old, five years ago.

Right. So, and then I was like, okay. That was a really awkward moment now. Right. For me. Right.

Ryan Bathgate MA (14:38.785)

So I don't need to laugh. I'm sorry. That's my awkward laugh, I think.

Chuck (14:41.812)

It's a it's a it is it's kind of one of those what else do you do fucking things at that point, right? Yeah, right. Like that's a coping laugh if I ever heard one right. So, you know, and it was it was a terribly awkward thing to happen. But it really got me to thinking about how even now from from this place of empathy and understanding, self -forgiveness, all of those things that I've been working really hard at. There was that

fucking moment of absolute shame at who I used to be. Right? Which, wow, you know, like how long does that take to go away? Because by now I would never have thought those words would have come out of my mouth. You know, right?

Ryan Bathgate MA (15:25.985)

Well, yeah, it is.

Ryan Bathgate MA (15:31.297)

It's reflective, you know.

There's a thing in, I'm gonna do it again, I'm doing it again. I'm doing an AA thing. No matter how far down the path we've gone, we will not regret our past nor shut the door on it. And says something about it being useful. I should know it, I've listened to it a thousand times, but I don't, because I'm usually thinking about how I'm gonna change everyone's life with my amazing share. So I don't listen to Howard.

Chuck (15:43.38)

Yeah.

Chuck (16:07.156)

Fucking cocky prick. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (16:08.58)

And honestly, I'm over. I've changed nobody's life. You know what I mean? Like, I'm like over a thousand. Because what I think sounds good in here doesn't always sound good coming out, you know? Let me just wait a second for everyone to laugh. they didn't. Yes. So my point is, though, is like, and so what they say is that if we don't, as you do the steps,

Chuck (16:16.66)

Yeah.

Chuck (16:20.66)

let me tell ya, I know, right, I know.

Chuck (16:26.612)

Yeah. Tough room.

Ryan Bathgate MA (16:36.513)

these things start to happen, they're called the promises. And one of those things is, we will know a new freedom, we will know peace, which is kind of where I'm at right now. And I am not proud of the man I've been, I'll tell you that. And so I can relate to that. But how valuable is that to me now, today? Exactly, and like, you know.

Chuck (16:51.732)

Of course, yeah.

Chuck (16:58.74)

Very, very, right? As are all of the experiences I had, same, extremely valuable to me, right? I mean, in everything I do.

Ryan Bathgate MA (17:05.217)

Well, there is like this interesting dynamic within this industry though, like, because if you are, if you're working on the docs and you're in the union and you have a substance use disorder, they'll send you to treatment, you come back to work and that's it. But in this industry, if you're a helper in this industry, it does not work like that. If you are, you know, if you have a relapse, then chances are you need to start your career over.

And that to me is very unjust. And I missed that in the brochure. Not that I was ever planning on relapsing, but you know what I mean? I probably wouldn't have made a difference.

Chuck (17:38.42)

Yeah, it is.

Chuck (17:42.996)

Yeah, I don't feel, yeah, it wouldn't have made a difference because it's not something you would have considered happening at the time because.

Ryan Bathgate MA (17:48.321)

It's not, and the other thing is like, this is right for me. You know what I mean? When I talk about rhythm, when I do this work, I'm in rhythm. It is a matching of my existence to the work. And so it becomes, it transcends the vocation. It is a part of me who I am. And so I would have done it anyway. And yeah, you're right. I never thought I'd relapse. And when I did relapse, I didn't think I was relapsing. So that's how fucked up that is. You know what I mean?

You know, for five years I was just drinking again. It wasn't a relapse until I came back in. And then, and if another funny thing happened where like, you know, typically when somebody relapses, you know, if they were like,

Chuck (18:18.196)

Yep.

Chuck (18:27.028)

was right.

Ryan Bathgate MA (18:37.825)

did something wrong or something, if they relapse and come back in, it's like the slate's cleaned. That didn't happen with me, it went the other way, where I got a lot more judgment and I lost a lot of friends, to be honest with you. And if I was a drywall, I bet you that doesn't happen. You know what I mean?

Chuck (18:54.292)

Of course it doesn't happen. That's a really interesting hypocrisy. I don't know if hypocrisy is the right word for it. Dichotomy, most certainly, but.

Ryan Bathgate MA (19:00.257)

yeah.

It is, and it's also, I don't think there's anything intentional. It's just like, there's so much fear in this thing, man. Like, people are afraid of catching the relapse bug. And I know that sounds ridiculous, but I've watched it where people are like, wow, man, I don't know that guy's relapsed. I'm cutting him out, you know? And I'm like, that seems like the opposite thing we need to be doing when somebody...

Chuck (19:10.004)

Yeah, right.

Chuck (19:24.98)

Exactly, exactly. I mean, that idea goes back into treatment too. It's like, where you're caught using your kicked out. Well, but that's why you're getting treated for that. Fuck, right? Like, you know.

Ryan Bathgate MA (19:35.889)

So you you're kicking me out for being a drug addict and using drugs Yeah, so now I have been the guy that has to do that many times

Chuck (19:40.052)

Yeah.

And I can make an argument for doing it as easily as I can make an argument for not doing it. You know, so. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (19:47.649)

Well, I'll tell you my theory around it. It was never the reason. It might've been the last reason. And it always, always had to do with the entire container. So if what, for me it was like, if we had a bunch of relapses, often it was like, man, bad timing. You know what I mean? Like we just had three relapses last week, the system can't contain another one. So you gotta go, but you can come back.

Chuck (19:55.7)

Fair enough. OK.

Ryan Bathgate MA (20:16.033)

You know what I mean? Go 30 days, you can come back. And that's kind of how I always look at that. And it's also like you didn't journal, you didn't do your chore, you didn't get up on time. You know what I mean? You weren't participating in group. Those are the things. And then it's like, and now you had a relapse. Like, you're not ready. You're not ready for this. But a single isolated relapse to somebody that was doing everything they can, I can guarantee you that I would not ask them to leave at that point.

Chuck (20:17.396)

Yeah.

Chuck (20:44.02)

Fair enough, fair enough. I'm no expert on the treatment world. You know a lot more about that world than I do, to say the least. But I don't feel like that policy would be a blanket thing. I think it would be much more common to say, I relapse, you're out. I think you would be the exception to the rule.

Ryan Bathgate MA (20:45.505)

But I also understand, drug addicts use drugs, alcoholics drink alcohol.

Ryan Bathgate MA (21:00.353)

And that to me, that's the easy way to me, because it's the easy thing to do. You're actually gone, your message is there, everything's the same. But it's not, these are human beings that have put their trust in their lives into our hands. I need to treat them like human beings. And that means an individual approach in every facet. And I'm pretty open about it, like here's why. Here's where we are. And this is not, I didn't actually do any of that.

Chuck (21:09.908)

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Chuck (21:25.492)

Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (21:29.281)

I'm the one that has to give you the bad news. Or, but often, I want to find ways to make them use that experience to grow. And if I can do that, then that, so to me, it's a powerful and beautiful opportunity, if they survive, of course, which doesn't always happen. Yeah. And that's a point that I need to drive home. Like, hey, you survived. Count your lucky stars. Because I don't even know what we're at right now. 20 ,000 since 2016, something like that?

Chuck (21:30.132)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck (21:44.148)

if they survive, right, which we know, right.

Chuck (21:58.644)

I don't even know anymore. It's yeah, I know. Well, in BC, it is now the leading cause of death amongst young people. Correct. I think that that status is an official thing. Right. Which. There's a conversation I had in the comments again the other day, it was like young people. These are people who haven't even had a chance to live with a fully functioning, healthy brain. And we are demonizing them. For succumbing to their disease.

Ryan Bathgate MA (21:59.681)

In BC, in BC. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (22:05.505)

Yup.

Ryan Bathgate MA (22:10.529)

But it hasn't.

Ryan Bathgate MA (22:23.137)

Wow. And honestly, like.

Chuck (22:25.908)

Right? And it's like, fuck man, like how, how, you know?

Ryan Bathgate MA (22:29.089)

To be, let's be real, you want to be really honest, this has been an epidemic since the 80s. And the downtown East side for sure. It's just when people started showing up dead in West Vancouver and in, you know, in, in, you would have senators sons are dying and police chiefs daughters are dying. That's when it became an epidemic. When it was, when it was the poor and the disenfranchised. Yeah.

Chuck (22:35.956)

Yeah.

Chuck (22:51.7)

Yeah. Yeah.

The downtrodden and yeah, all of that, right? Yeah, yeah, no big deal. Right? Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (22:59.457)

No, because, I mean, do they qualify as citizens? Like, fuck off. Sorry. I get a little upset with the whole thing.

Chuck (23:04.916)

Yeah, well, no story needed. That's a well placed fuck off if there ever was.

Ryan Bathgate MA (23:10.273)

Wow, we're all sons and daughters and brothers and sisters. Let's never forget that. And within each human being is hope and love and passion and fire and all of that stuff. And the problem with substance use disorder is it takes that away. It takes our ability to access the parts of our brain that give us our individuality and really we recess into an animalistic style of life, which is...

fight or flight. It's doggy dog, you know, like, and that, but the other magical thing, if you actually go and spend time down in downtown Eastside, what you'll see is an extremely vibrant community of people that help each other. Now, when it comes down to it, and when it comes down to them or the drug, the substance use disorder takes over. But when it comes, the majority of time, that community is extremely strong. Those people will help each other, give each other the shirt off their back.

Chuck (23:46.328)

Yeah.

Chuck (23:59.412)

Of course it does, but yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (24:07.072)

And then if they need dope, they'll steal it back. But you don't even need like... But... Yeah.

Chuck (24:09.908)

So true, it's so true, right? And I've spoken to that multiple times in multiple episodes where you'll see somebody who's got two points, which for somebody who's not aware, a very, very small amount, you know, a few hours worth of dope really for somebody that's sick, sick, right? And beside them will be somebody who's really dope sick and they'll share that with them almost every time, knowing their life is going to get really shitty in about four hours.

Ryan Bathgate MA (24:31.489)

Well, yeah, happens. Yeah, happens all the time.

Ryan Bathgate MA (24:39.361)

Yeah, I've watched people give their only point to somebody who's sick. You know what I mean? I have myself, I actually just talked with a friend about this the other day, I have given people money to get down. Because I know what it's like to be dope sick and I don't want that for anyone. You know what I mean? Yeah, it is. And I will never apologize for that, ever.

Chuck (24:40.436)

if they share this, but they'll share it anyway. Yeah. Yeah, right. Which is just amazing, you know, right? Yeah.

Chuck (24:58.708)

Yeah, that's a human being suffering. At the end of the day, that's 100%. That's what it is, right? So yeah, no, no. And there is a school of thought that would just rip you apart for that and have at her, right? And I've, hey, I've done the same, right? I've sent 20 of my last $40 just before I came to Thailand to somebody, right? Because I knew that like, it was like, well, here, you know, like, sorry, I wish I could give you more. I can't, but this will take the edge off for a little bit for you anyway, right? So, you know, right? Yeah, yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (25:09.089)

yeah? Well, you could try. Yep.

Ryan Bathgate MA (25:24.033)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so really strong snapshot of people that understand the affliction and then people that don't. And honestly, if you don't understand, get educated before you have an opinion. Please. Otherwise.

Chuck (25:35.316)

Yep. Yeah. Right. Right there. Right there.

Chuck (25:44.66)

Everybody is entitled to an informed opinion.

Ryan Bathgate MA (25:47.937)

100 % and if you've done the work to be educated and have an opinion that's not like mine, I want to celebrate that You know what I mean, but if it's just ignorance and hate I I gotta I I don't even want to engage. I just I just want to turn around walk away. I Don't even want to say you're wrong. I don't even think it deserves that. It's just like that's sad You know, and when and we're in the middle of it in the middle of it

Chuck (25:55.252)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck (25:59.636)

man.

Chuck (26:06.388)

Yeah.

Chuck (26:10.452)

Mm -hmm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's fucking awful, man. You know, so I wanted to switch gears, kind of, because it's something we started to touch on and that was with yourself. You know, you relapse and all of a sudden your relationship with the entire recovery community changes. Not for the better in a lot of those instances.

Ryan Bathgate MA (26:18.465)

It is, but... Go ahead.

Ryan Bathgate MA (26:33.345)

Well, no, I can't agree with that. I actually think it's the opposite.

Chuck (26:38.388)

Okay. Okay. So the part I was speaking to though was what we were talking about.

Ryan Bathgate MA (26:39.393)

And the reason is because, yes, when I say I've lost friends, what I've lost is people that I thought were friends.

Chuck (26:49.268)

Okay, okay, okay. But the point I'm getting to here, and I know what you're saying, and I love what you're saying, but that's the point I'm trying to make. Yeah. Recently I did a reel with Lisa who finished off an episode saying, if you relapse, relapse out loud. Right? Like, please, right? Like, rally the troops, say the things, and we know why she said that. You know, why that's on her mind, you know? Right?

Ryan Bathgate MA (26:54.497)

Yeah. Yeah, it's not yet. Yeah, sorry.

Ryan Bathgate MA (27:14.973)

I relapsed so loud, I know exactly what you're saying. It was terrifying. Fucking terrifying, yes.

Chuck (27:20.852)

The, what we know watching that reel, and I don't know if you've caught that one, Ryan, or not, but the pain in her eyes and in her voice is very much there, right? And we both know why. However, what you're just speaking to now, if you are at a place in the recovery community, and you get to a certain place, to hide that relapse is so fucking easy to do.

Ryan Bathgate MA (27:25.505)

Mm.

Ryan Bathgate MA (27:48.273)

man, I did it. I did it for five years.

Chuck (27:48.788)

Like just to default to it, right? You did it, absolutely, you did. Yeah, right? Because like there's almost no incentive to relapse out loud, right? Not on the surface. I mean, deep down, there's a lot of incentive to do it, right? But yeah, but on the surface, there's almost no incentive, right? You know? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (27:59.169)

Not in the series, not in the onset. Yes. Well, there's a reason, there's a reason we did on here. And that was, that is, that's the why. And it, and it was fucking terrifying, man. I was sick with vulnerability remorse, not recording remorse, vulnerability remorse. You know, and it is, it's, especially when you built something, you know, and have the optics and

And you have respect in all those things and like that's what goes is people lose respect Instead of going the other way which to me I would want to be like good for you, you know And you go to a meeting and someone comes back everybody claps. They don't fucking take the fuck out of here You know what I mean, but somehow some reason And you know, I'm sorry. I was talking to Jimmy about it. It's like that's the product of the pedestal in people like

Chuck (28:34.388)

Yeah.

Chuck (28:45.332)

Exactly, exactly.

Yeah, right.

Ryan Bathgate MA (28:55.425)

It is such a disservice to that individual that you put on the pedestal because they have no room to fall. They have no room to be human and to be of air. And and it's it's it sucks. It sucks. Because the reality is, I mean, I fuck things up all the time. You know, if I do anything well, it's fuck things up. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, right. I can fuck it up. Yeah. And and like.

Chuck (29:02.548)

Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck (29:09.236)

Yeah, of course it does.

Chuck (29:17.592)

It's my superpower. I understand. I can relate to that. Yeah, for sure.

Ryan Bathgate MA (29:25.025)

Why don't take that away from me man like I? Want to be fallible how else am I gonna learn? You know and so but but you know like I said the other side of that is that there was a group of amazing human beings That did the exact opposite and that you know obviously Devon be in the forefront of that

Chuck (29:28.563)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

Ryan Bathgate MA (29:45.537)

that have re -instilled my love for the human spirit and connection and what it is to be, I mean I'm inspired to be a good friend to other people because of how people have treated me in my time of peril. You know, and I know who they are.

Chuck (29:58.964)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

Ryan Bathgate MA (30:03.873)

You know and like I'm gonna say I know who they are. I don't mean like I know who they are I mean, I know who they are I know what's behind them under the hood and what that is is virtue and and pure and And to quote Viktor Frankl of love and in love and that's where meaning is driven from you know So I guess I guess what I'll say to that is like

Chuck (30:09.78)

Yeah.

Chuck (30:23.252)

Yeah, yeah, right.

Ryan Bathgate MA (30:30.337)

You can't fill a cup that's already full.

Chuck (30:31.416)

Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (30:34.241)

be humble, to quote Kendrick Lamar. Sorry, I just, I just listened in on the way in today. I'm not gonna say the words, because, graphic, but, yeah, anyway, no, but, you know, and like I mentioned, humility and ego being, not holding the same space at the same time, I mean, it is.

Chuck (30:38.356)

you

Ryan Bathgate MA (30:54.273)

It is to be humble is to have an access to the metaphysical or the spiritual. Because humility is an invitation. Arrogance is a disconnect. It's a rejection of connection. You know what I mean? And it makes sense to me that myself works this way down and my arrogance this way up. I don't want you to find out how fucked up I am. But when my confidence is high...

and my humility is high, then I'm an open book. I don't fear what you think. And the tragedy of that is that reading minds is not part of the human experience. And we all do it and we all fail horribly. Like, horribly.

Chuck (31:36.935)

Yeah. Right. I'll lighten that one up just a little bit, but it's because it's my style to do that. But literally every time I hear somebody say, I know people, I can read people. It's like, but you can't. You can't. Everybody thinks they can read people. Everybody thinks that, you know, right. There's a cognitive distortion happening there, ma 'am. No, you cannot read people. Right.

Ryan Bathgate MA (31:48.481)

Ryan Bathgate MA (31:52.577)

Yeah, yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (31:59.425)

Yeah, let me know when you're a guest on The Tonight Show for your amazing abilities. Yeah, beanie, beanie, beanie. He's got the, he's got the turban.

Chuck (32:03.604)

What was he called? What was he called? Johnny Carson. Was it like the great Zambini or something stupid that that's not what it was, right? Yeah, yeah, he's got that big horribly racist thing going on there.

Ryan Bathgate MA (32:19.265)

Yeah, so racist. So racist. I don't remember, but yeah, I remember. Anyways, I think what I'm getting at here is like, in order for me to be accessible, I need to not be arrogant. I need to not have disconnect. To remove disconnect, I need to stop. So arrogance is a big one. Worship of self is another one.

Chuck (32:26.324)

Cough cough

Ryan Bathgate MA (32:50.057)

and the need for chaos. Being comfortable in calamity is a very disconnectable state. And so, you know, we talk about this journey for peace. I mean, and that's really what's evolved from all of this is like, you know, it evolved years ago that I realized that sobriety was not the answer. Peace is. That's what I want from life. Unfortunately, I can't have it without sobriety.

Chuck (32:53.875)

Yeah.

Chuck (33:18.804)

Yeah, right. And it's I've I've come to terms with that sometime a while back. So sobriety is not the goal. Sobriety is a necessary step to achieve the goal for me. Right. You know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (33:19.393)

It.

Ryan Bathgate MA (33:26.433)

Yes, yes, it's the Phillips screwdriver, yeah. Yeah, but the reason I say that is because we get a...

Chuck (33:33.332)

Hold on, Philip screwdriver, what the fuck metaphor are you talking about now?

Ryan Bathgate MA (33:37.633)

It's a tool. It's not a... It's not the toolbox. It's a tool in the box. Yeah?

Chuck (33:39.988)

okay. okay. Okay. Okay. That would have been way easier to say it's a tool instead of Phillips screwdriver, random fucking vague cryptic crap was that.

Ryan Bathgate MA (33:49.793)

Come on, you can put that together. Now, there's a design to that way of talking. And the idea is exactly what I did there, is to keep you engaged and in thought process.

Chuck (34:03.188)

I used a terrible metaphor because I wanted you to fuck off.

Ryan Bathgate MA (34:10.529)

Yeah, yeah, all part of my plan. It's all by design. Check out how amazing I am. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chuck (34:16.756)

You know, you might have pulled that one over on me a year ago, bro, but we're not there. Just testing you, just testing you. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's completely off topic, which again, I tend to do. The Phillips versus Robertson screwdriver thing. Do you know, like, do you know anything about that history?

Ryan Bathgate MA (34:36.673)

Yeah.

one's Canadian. Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck (34:41.524)

Yeah, the Roberts, the square one is right. So if you go into the America, anywhere into the US, you will not see Roberts' groups. Right? Because they fight it. My understanding is that they fight it because it's not like the American is the Phillips and the Canadian is the Roberts. Right? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (34:49.057)

Not one, I know. Which is, which is, which is dumb.

Ryan Bathgate MA (34:57.441)

Yeah, okay. And yeah, that's what I know about it. I know that it's a far inferior interface.

Chuck (35:03.156)

Like it's not even close, right? When you, you know, it blows my mind that the pride there, right? Yeah, yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (35:06.356)

How often these Like honestly, I every time I see a Philips I'm like I'm gonna strip this fucking thing sure enough I did. Yeah, but

Chuck (35:14.164)

Guaranteed. No doubt about it. Yeah, this thing is fucked. I'm totally capable of it. Totally capable of it. But yeah, it takes some work. Yeah, absolutely. That's funny. Anyway.

Ryan Bathgate MA (35:19.713)

But you gotta work to strip a Robertson. You really gotta fuck it up. Yeah, yeah. I just like to drill on it. Yeah, anyways. What was my point there after I was testing you?

Chuck (35:37.108)

I don't know, making up fucking metaphors and yeah, that was horrible.

Ryan Bathgate MA (35:40.705)

My - no, it's not. It's - it's the -

Chuck (35:43.636)

Me making that metaphor up was vice grips. There was another tool in the toolbox. So it's like, no, okay, stop it. Stop metaphor shaming me.

Ryan Bathgate MA (35:48.001)

Yeah.

Good metaphor. Good metaphor. Well done. You're really coming into your own. You don't belong here. Okay, anyways, my point was that, every time that I focused on sobriety, it all became about extrinsic. It was like,

that person's got 10 years. He must be able to recite the encyclopedia. Like, I don't know where we get off thinking that because somebody didn't put drugs in the system for X amount of time that they have a superpower. You know what I mean? Like, so then, and invariably I became extrinsically focused, which negated my ability to grow within. You know what I mean? And what would happen? My sobriety date would change. You know what I mean? Like, and then it was just like, you know, I came to this realization that was like, what do I want from life?

And what I want from life, now I fucked this up because I didn't say sober, but I want peace. I just want to live in a peaceful existence. You know what I mean? And what I found in the last trip was that I have to be sober to have that. I cannot have alcohol, drug, whatever it is. I can't be using that thinking I'm going to experience peace. And if I do, it's drug induced. It's not real.

It's a pokeru. You know what I mean? Now, pokeru? Huh? 80s kids. Come on, 80s kids out there. You guys know what a pokeru is. Was it? Was it? okay. Okay. Was it? Pokeru, pokeru. I use that all the time. I can't help myself. So, and so like, what, you know, it's just like all the fucking pieces are coming together again. Like, that makes it. And all the shit that I heard 20 years ago.

Chuck (37:21.46)

Yeah.

Chuck (37:26.484)

Nobody's going to get that reference either. That's funny. That was such a Canadian thing, right? Pokeroo was. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Pokeroo, pokeroo. Yeah. Yeah, it was. Yeah. No.

Ryan Bathgate MA (37:51.521)

in meetings starts to make sense, you know, like, that's what I meant by that. Like, I'm going beyond the like, sometimes you got to fuck with your newcomers to know why you shouldn't fuck newcomers. I was one of my old sponsors, famous lines. Well, no, but I actually used it in a bigger spectrum where it was like, sometimes you got to fuck up to know why you don't fuck up or know why you shouldn't. You know what I mean? Like, and so.

Chuck (38:05.076)

You told me that one says horrible.

Chuck (38:15.668)

Yeah, yeah. Fair enough, fair enough.

Ryan Bathgate MA (38:19.777)

Yeah, it is a little crude that it ties back to that, but that's where it made sense to me was when I was doing dumb shit in my 20s, like, which we all did, right? Yeah, so, and, yeah, well, now, granted, my 20s went way into my 30s. Way into my 30s. I don't even know when I hit 30s. I think it went from 20s to 40s. You know, it's, yeah.

Chuck (38:30.951)

And 30s and most of my 40s so far.

Chuck (38:39.668)

Yeah.

Chuck (38:47.06)

43 for sure.

Ryan Bathgate MA (38:49.313)

Lucy I finally got a credit card at age 38 so And and most people get credit cards at like 20 So really I took that for a ride, you know Yeah, I don't know what's going on there but so to kind of tie that back in it's like This this gift that we get is

Chuck (38:53.94)

Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (39:17.537)

I don't think there's words. When we understand what we've been given in the idea of what life is, what's in front of us, there's no room for anything else but gratitude and appreciation. To be given the gift of relationship, to be given the gift of fatherhood, to be given the gift of friendship, never mind this connection within ourselves. And I think that might be the most important because...

That's the difference between me being able to look in the mirror and not, or be disgusted with what I see. And so when I have this connection within, and really, I think that that's the agenda of the whole spiritual element that Carl Jung talked about, being that... Carl Jung, yeah.

Chuck (40:10.964)

You've referenced him a lot and I feel like I should know. So I'm going to nod and smile and pretend like I do. And then, yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (40:13.377)

So he was, in the early days, he was a friend to the beginnings of Alcoholics Anonymous and wrote a, what he did was he did a study with extreme alcoholics and studied them for a couple of years and came to a conclusion that there was no other solution to the problem of alcoholism other than the spiritual one. And which got him in a lot of hot water because

in those days, his therapy was very psychoanalytic, it's very Freudian, you lay on the couch and I sit above you and tell you what's wrong with you, you know? And he was like, well, there's more to it than this, this is a metaphysical element to the human experience that we need to look at. And so I think, you know, I don't know about...

Chuck (41:04.18)

Did he do that so that I understand? Did he do that from like a Christian standpoint or from a scientific analysis of it kind of thing, right?

Ryan Bathgate MA (41:09.601)

No.

I don't know why he did it, but my guess would be that it would be an extreme challenge to the time of psychoanalysis, which kind of was branching off into person -centered and all these other things at that time. But he was the first one to actually bring in something not science -based, evidence -based.

as in spiritual, as one of the pillars of human existence. And so that's we have spiritual, mental, emotional, or you can look at the bio -psychosocial spiritual element where that's what most substance use disorder treatment is based on. It's like the BBSS it's called, which is the biological, the psychological.

Chuck (41:39.444)

Okay.

Chuck (41:54.52)

Okay.

Ryan Bathgate MA (41:56.865)

the social element and then the spiritual element. And those are the four things that we need to get healthy in order to be a comprehensive human being. And so I think that, you know, so what my experience with trying to tap into something that is beyond myself or to use verbiage of the community, God of my understanding, is that it's really put

me in touch with me. You know, just by like, you know, looking at my defects, which I'm not crazy about that word. I think that, I think everything's an opportunity. So a defect is actually an opportunity for, for strength if we can cultivate it in a way. So, but what it does is it makes me look at me. It makes me look at the things that I don't want to look at. It makes you look at the things that I, that I would love to be able to look at, but I don't have the self -worth to be able to handle.

Like maybe I'm actually good at something, but you know, someone, you give me a compliment and I say, no, no, no, it was you. You know what I mean? Like.

Chuck (42:58.488)

Very rare do you meet somebody who can actually just take a compliment for what it is, right? Very rare, very rare. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. It really isn't, right? Yeah, I mean, somebody that can do that without ego and arrogance anyway, it's a very rare thing to come across somebody that can do that, right?

Ryan Bathgate MA (43:03.777)

Well, if you do meet someone, you can point at them and say, there's someone who did some work. Because it's not natural. Yeah. Yeah, and like...

Ryan Bathgate MA (43:19.585)

But even with ego and arrogance, it's not the same. It's because you're like, hey, you're really good at it. Like, yeah, I know I'm the best. You know, like, totally nailed it. You know, yeah, yeah. But if it's like, yeah, thank you.

Chuck (43:22.964)

No, it's not. It's not at all. Right. So that's kind of the point I'm making is that it's just, yeah. Right. Yeah. That's, that's icky and gross. Right. But yeah, there's somebody that just says, thank you. And for myself, that that's something that Brian that I've worked on really hard, just say, thank you. Don't qualify it with your ridiculous, negative self -talk shit and your coping humor. Just say, thank you. Right. And it's tough to do. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (43:39.873)

Yeah, and me too, man.

Ryan Bathgate MA (43:47.617)

Well, you saw, I've been doing this for a decade or so. You think about all the people that have thanked me for helping over the years. And for the longest time, it was, I didn't do anything. I just sat here and listened. You know what I mean? That was my response. Well.

Chuck (44:01.588)

Yeah, right, right. Which is like a fucking blatant lie. Right? Because like if I could do that with a chair, right, this is, no, you need to have somebody who knows what they're doing sitting in that chair in order for this to work, right? So, right? And it's a wonderful thing that you push that back onto that person. But at the end of the day, that's you just not accepting a fucking compliment. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (44:09.569)

you

Ryan Bathgate MA (44:14.337)

It is. It is. It is.

Ryan Bathgate MA (44:19.905)

It's not it's And I'm taking away from them Most importantly, I'm taking it because it takes someone thought and courage to be able to give a compliment You know what I mean? Yeah, and so I had this I had a moment my early years First trip through anything where I would meet with my sponsor every Sunday and we would meet an hour before our home group

Chuck (44:32.756)

damn straight it does. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (44:46.785)

go over the book for half an hour and we would talk about how it applies to our life for the next half hour. Regiment, that's the way I was taught how to do this thing, sponsorship and all that. And then, you know, one of the times he paid the bill and I got upset. I was like, fuck you, you know what I mean? Like, I'm, I'm, I work, I'm a man, I'll pay, you know?

Chuck (45:09.524)

Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (45:10.273)

And he was like, fuck you, man. Why would you take that away from me? I was trying to do something nice and feel good about myself for 10 minutes. And I was like, fuck. Like, yeah. Damn it. Yeah, yeah. And I never forgot it, honestly. And so now what I want to do is when someone thanks me, I want to say thank you. And in my mind, I want to appreciate that I got to bear witness the act of organic.

Chuck (45:15.38)

That's a moment right there, right? Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (45:35.649)

meaningful gratitude as it was appreciated and articulated in one moment that I got to share with that person. That's where I want to be. That whether I am or not is completely dependent on where I am with my intrinsic resources of self -esteem, self -worth, and self -respect.

Chuck (45:51.636)

Fair enough, eh? That's beautiful, man. I like that.

Ryan Bathgate MA (45:54.049)

Well, the theory is great, but you know, like I said, it is, it's completely dependent on where I'm at and how I feel about myself at any given time.

Chuck (45:58.068)

Yeah. But it's it's hard to do, right? You know, you know. Mm hmm. One of the things you said to me early when we first started doing this thing then was treat yourself like you would your best friend. Right. And I'm not sure if that's an original quote on your behalf or something that you've repeated, but you're the guy I attribute. You're the guy that says that to me when I play it in my head anyway. Right. That's a big deal.

Ryan Bathgate MA (46:22.241)

I'm honored. Thank you.

Chuck (46:27.22)

There we are, right? But that statement is a big deal. And I've tried to make it a meme a few times and it doesn't hit that well because I feel like you really need some context and it just doesn't fit into a meme because you need to have some context behind it. But I wish more people understood that premise and how important it is.

Ryan Bathgate MA (46:28.161)

Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (46:42.753)

Mm -hmm.

Okay, I got, I got, I got a, well, I got the lived questions that I like to do. What if that meme just came across as what would your world look like if you treated yourself like your best friend?

Chuck (46:53.076)

Yeah.

Chuck (46:59.38)

There you go. Maybe that's there. Ask a question instead of make the statement. There you go. Right. Okay. You keep talking. I'm going to make a meme. Okay. Go. It's not like a fucking Phillips screwdriver. Fuck you and your Phillips screwdriver. It's funny. For sure.

Ryan Bathgate MA (47:02.992)

Yeah, well that's an engaging in the thought process. It's kind of like a Philip Scrooge area.

Okay, ready? It's like a Philip screwdriver. Make a meme.

Ryan Bathgate MA (47:21.289)

That's funny.

Chuck (47:28.148)

I know what it is. And it's like, if we just did right, I get complimented often. That sounds like see right there. Sounds like an arrogant thing to say, but no, it's true. And I do. And it is so hard even now saying all the things we've just said, having this conversation, it's still hard to do. And that's just that it's something I feel like a person has to work on your whole life.

Ryan Bathgate MA (47:35.329)

Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (47:43.073)

Why?

Chuck (47:57.876)

Right? As you know, or I might have to, and that's fine. Right? So.

Ryan Bathgate MA (47:58.433)

Yeah, and aren't all these things? Like we have to, we... Whatever you don't maintain, you lose. Period. Fucking science, man. Like if I don't pick change oil in my car, I lose my car. If I don't tell my wife she's pretty, I lose my wife. You know, like if I don't maintain my own self -worth, my own intrinsic resources, then they bought them out. And the other... That's not even the problem. The problem is what manifests from that.

Chuck (48:15.956)

Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (48:27.425)

the behaviors that come from that. The selfishness, the self -centeredness, all that shit. Especially... Yeah, yeah. I wanted to read something.

Chuck (48:29.356)

Yeah. Fair enough.

stuff that takes its place. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (48:42.689)

Humility is the result of knowing... this has got a God thing in it. I'm saying it anyway. This is our daily reflection. Humility is the result of knowing that God is the doer, not me. In the light of his awareness, how can I take pride in my accomplishments?

Am I an instrument in any work I seem to be doing is being done by God through me? I ask God on a daily basis to remove my shortcomings in order that I may more freely go about my business of love and service. So let's de -God that a little bit. And what is that saying? Is humility is the result that I'm doing for my fellow man instead of for myself?

Chuck (49:20.504)

Okay.

Ryan Bathgate MA (49:26.562)

You know what I mean? It is being, I wanna be teachable so I can enhance and maintain a relationship. As soon as I know better, I'm alone. As soon as I'm the expert, I'm alone. You know what I mean? If I'm alone, you know what's happening. Something's used to disorder, that's its playground, loneliness. Right?

Chuck (49:43.476)

Yeah.

Chuck (49:54.612)

Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. Right. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (49:56.257)

And its job is to get us isolated away from the pack and slowly, like cutting your heart out with a spoon, slowly kills you in the worst kind of death possible. And that's why, like, you know, the opioid epidemic is awful. But is there anything more sad and painful to watch than an alcoholic death?

Chuck (50:22.996)

Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (50:23.937)

You know, and like, you know, I mean, look at, shake the family tree. For most of us, we shake that tree and you got some sad stories falling out.

Chuck (50:37.204)

Yeah, you do. Yep. 100%. Right.

Ryan Bathgate MA (50:38.369)

Yeah, you know, and I have I have some real close to real close to me and it you know to say I guess you could say that I've I've taught myself apathy, but it's it's a facade this deep sadness underneath it to be honest like you know and like You know, you do you know, I don't want to come out say i'm talking about what I think, you know

Chuck (50:54.388)

Yeah, of course. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (51:04.865)

Yeah.

Chuck (51:05.14)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, so.

Ryan Bathgate MA (51:09.313)

And we can learn, the only thing we can do to make value from that is learn from it. Which I have and I like to think I have, the story's not over yet, but I hope that there's enough there. I just know that I want my little girls to look up to me when I'm gone. I want them to say nice things. And I wanna be their hero.

Chuck (51:31.668)

Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (51:37.217)

Whatever that looks like I don't know cuz I don't really know how to do that I know what not to do a lot of that Yeah Yes Yeah, yes, like don't leave kids in a car at the bar for eight hours and bring them out a great knee -high every four hours and a slice of shitty pizza from La Mise

Chuck (51:40.468)

Yeah, right.

Chuck (51:45.14)

Yeah. One could say I'm an expert.

Chuck (51:58.004)

Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (52:02.753)

Do you remember that place? Lamise? It was right in the corner of 36th and Marlboro Drive. Right across from the SkyTrain station, or the C train station. There's a little strip mall there. Yeah, yeah, yeah

Chuck (52:04.82)

No, I don't. No, no, no, no, no.

system.

Chuck (52:14.292)

C transition 36 of my brother by 7 -eleven there

yeah, your dad's water and hole was right there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember that. Yeah, okay, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we used to throw our skateboards off the mezzanine level up top there, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (52:25.217)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow.

Yeah, yeah, right, yeah, yeah. And that's where I learned about great knee highs. Which I don't even know what they are, to be honest with you. It's a great pop, maybe?

Chuck (52:36.564)

Ha ha ha ha ha.

I have no idea.

Ryan Bathgate MA (52:43.841)

I don't know why it just walked me home. It was eight minutes away. But my, you know, it is, and again, it's like, we look at the amount of intelligence that exists, cognitive intelligence that exists within the people who have a substance use disorder, and it's staggering, actually, like.

Chuck (52:48.756)

Anyway. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (53:11.745)

You know, we, and you talk about the stigma, but I did anyway, but the epidemic only happening once it hit citizens of prestige. But if we look at the, the population or the demographic of people in substance use disorder, whether it be Hastings or Whistler, it doesn't matter. You're going to find intelligent people that are really struggling with their own intelligence and their own existence.

And so how do we, when you take IQ and EQ, if one of them is out of balance, it's working too hard. And we see it much more with the IQ over EQ, just based on our social tapestry. But when we see those people that have a balance,

Chuck (53:42.036)

Absolutely.

Ryan Bathgate MA (54:03.873)

They stick out. It's like an aura around them. It's like there's a gleam in their eye. You know what I mean? They figured something out that we all haven't yet. And it's amazing to me how attracted people are to that. And I heard Bernad Brown say one time that interesting people are interested people, which really speaks to the EQIQ balance, in my opinion.

Chuck (54:12.052)

Absolutely.

Chuck (54:33.236)

It does.

Ryan Bathgate MA (54:33.985)

Yeah, yes, because if I'm insecure, who am I thinking about? Yeah, right? But if I know who I am and I know how I feel and I know how to express that, I'm going to be asking you a lot of questions about you. And my old mentor always used to say, that which appreciates appreciates. So when I'm appreciating you, I become more. And that's the transaction of love and action.

Chuck (54:35.924)

Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, yourself, right? 100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chuck (54:54.612)

There you go.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Ryan Bathgate MA (55:01.409)

That's how we evolve, we become more and expand beyond what we think was our potential. That's another thing, substance use disorder just robs us of even a glimpse of potential, a glimpse at understanding what could be, what we could do with this life, this gift of life. And the other thing it does is it starts to take away the wrapping paper of the gift of life. And I don't know why, but we hit this point where we fucking hate light living.

Chuck (55:01.748)

Exactly, right, exactly.

Chuck (55:19.668)

Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck (55:30.068)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Ryan Bathgate MA (55:30.241)

This beautiful gift that we've been given. And take it for granted. That's gotta be a really powerful thing that can do that to a human being. Can make the gift of life mundane. That's a really powerful agent. And I like that thing you posted about Hannibal Lecter there. What's his name? Come on.

Chuck (55:33.236)

Yep. Yep.

Chuck (55:44.98)

I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

Ryan Bathgate MA (56:00.481)

River runs through it. And he happens, when he says, what was the meme again?

Chuck (56:01.62)

Atsy Hopkins, yeah.

I don't remember for the life of me. That was like a hundred memes ago. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (56:13.057)

No, why I spent so much energy trying to remember his name. I forgot the meme So yeah, go check it out and then we'll talk about it sometime. I don't know

Chuck (56:17.78)

hahahaha

check out our Facebook page, go look for a picture of Anthony Hopkins and you'll see it there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, next one around, right? But we are at the top of the hour here, brother. So, yeah, that happens that quick, eh? We will move into my favorite part of the show, which is the Daily Gratitudes. And today, the Daily Gratitudes are brought to you by the Autotrauma Center here in Krabi, Thailand, where I reside. They treat trauma, they do it very, very, very well.

Ryan Bathgate MA (56:30.593)

I know!

Chuck (56:47.484)

Specifically, I'm gonna speak to, if you've had a loved one who's been through the gambit and suffering an addiction or has suffered or whatever with SUD, take a look at your own trauma. You've been through the wringer and you deserve to address that and Yatra just might be the place to do that. So check them out. Go to the website, ajoapodcast .com slash trauma. You can get a bunch of episodes where we've talked about trauma and as well, of course, get their contact info.

What you got for some gratitude today, right?

Ryan Bathgate MA (57:18.945)

I talked about it, life itself, it's truly a beautiful gift. I'm also grateful the opportunities that come along when we start doing the right things. And I got something cooking right now that I don't want to talk about yet, but I had an idea in my head what my next step was. And it showed up, kind of.

Chuck (57:46.26)

and then you got me curious, so yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (57:47.489)

The potential has shown up. I've gone through a process, but it means I might be in a different part of the province. So I'm grateful for opportunity. Yeah.

Chuck (57:57.504)

Everything happens for a reason. Insert cliche here, right? So yeah, yeah, yeah. Preferably not Philip's screwdriver, some other metaphor or something that suits.

Ryan Bathgate MA (58:02.209)

Yeah, and then my, you know, I would use the Philip screwdriver metaphor as often as you can. I'll be giving a nickel to everyone that uses it from here on. It is the most concise and well -rounded metaphor that I can think of. Yeah, everything.

Chuck (58:19.476)

ever. It applies to literally everything. Whether it's cooking or recovery or space travel. The Phillips screwdriver metaphor is yes, yes. Yeah, that's best metaphor ever. Ever.

Ryan Bathgate MA (58:27.393)

Metaphor, hands down, hands down the best metaphor. And I will also not be sending anyone a nickel for using the metaphor, okay?

Chuck (58:38.004)

I just imagine Donald Trump saying best metaphor ever. I can't do a Trump imitation.

Ryan Bathgate MA (58:40.481)

Ever! Or, you know who can though, is, what's his name? he's so good, Alec Baldwin. His Trump metaphor, or Trump is, it's, here's the, my beautiful children, it's my last one of course, and Maria, yeah, and my family.

Chuck (58:52.5)

yeah, yeah, the SNL that's classic. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, anyway.

Yeah. Yeah.

Of course. Of course, right?

Ryan Bathgate MA (59:09.633)

And those really close friends that I would consider family as well, they've really shown up in the last while. Yeah.

Chuck (59:16.404)

Awesome, awesome, awesome. Myself, I've got an interesting one. Sunny is at that, you know, yes, I just said your name. He's at the top of my mind again today. Yesterday I went to go buy him a dog house, like a secondhand dog house, and I had to take the sidecar scooter to do it. Here's the thing. If I leave the house with the sidecar and Sunny's not in it, we have problems.

It's the only behavioral issues I have with my dog is when I leave with the sidecar and he's not in it. Has a temper tantrum until I get back. Wines, cries, carries on, barks, like it's nuts. And of course, I don't want to annoy my neighbors. So yesterday, I tried to explain to my 70 year old Thai landlords why I'm pushing the scooter and sidecar down the driveway out to the road, sneaking it like I would my mom's car.

Ryan Bathgate MA (59:55.745)

Mm.

Ryan Bathgate MA (01:00:11.585)

Yeah, I've done that. I know. I know exactly. Yeah, I did it with a standard.

Chuck (01:00:13.396)

stealing it, you know. Yeah, pushing it out, sneaking away and tried. Of course, right. So I there's a language barrier here. So now I'm trying to explain to them why I'm sneaking away with this and they just think I'm not. So I'm thankful for my dog. He makes my heart happy. Yeah, yeah. I'm also thankful to every single person. and metaphors. I love I love well -placed metaphors.

Ryan Bathgate MA (01:00:31.105)

you

Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (01:00:40.417)

And then... Phillips.

Chuck (01:00:42.932)

I'm also thankful to every single person who continues to like, comment, share, talk about, do all the things, interact with the content. You guys, please keep doing it. We're growing so fast right now and I couldn't be more appreciative for every single interaction. Every time you do these things, you're getting me a little bit closer to living my best life. My best life is to continue making Hubble living spreading the message and the message is this. If you're an active addiction right now, today could be the day. Today could be the day that you start that lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call them to detox, pray, go to church. I don't give a shit.

Do whatever it is you gotta do to get that to be started, because it is so much better than the alternative. And if you have a loved one who's suffering an addiction right now, you should take the time to listen to this metaphoric conversation. If you just take one more minute out of your day and text that person, let them know they are loved. Use the words. That little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings them back.

Ryan Bathgate MA (01:01:26.177)

You are loved.

Chuck (01:01:33.332)

Bye.