Shannon is back yet again to have a general, but great conversation about recovery, including humility, service, ego and gratitude.
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Chuck (00:04.598)
Yeah, okay.
Ryan Bathgate MA (00:05.573)
money.
Chuck (00:07.574)
Hello everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds. Welcome to another episode of the Ashes to Awesome podcast. I'm your host, Chuck LaFlange checking in from Krabi, Thailand. Halfway around the world is my good friend and co -host, Ryan Bathgate in Mission, BC. How you do today, Ryan?
Ryan Bathgate MA (00:09.032)
You
Ryan Bathgate MA (00:24.492)
I'm full. I'm pretty good. Yeah, no. Yeah, life's good. Yeah, that's where I am. Life is good. Fulfillment is happening. No, I hadn't thought about it all day, to be honest with you.
Chuck (00:33.185)
Okay, okay. Just like you're not trying to convince me. You're like, this is okay.
Shannon (00:40.021)
you
Chuck (00:42.52)
Well, that's a good thing. That might just be a good thing. fact that you don't, you know, yeah, right. Typically that means that you're not, you know, in the shit anyway. yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (00:46.674)
Yeah. Yeah, it's
No, I don't spend a lot of time in there to be honest with you.
Chuck (00:54.924)
Good, good, I'm glad to hear that. And of course, we have a returning guest now for third, fourth episode of Ashes to Awesome, think second with Ryan, but fourth episode I think that you've been on with us now is Shannon Burness in Okotoks Alberta. How you doing today, Shannon?
Shannon (01:11.093)
I am doing really good. Thanks for having me back. think it's three that are official and one that has disappeared somewhere. Yeah.
Chuck (01:21.117)
one that we decided not to run with.
Ryan Bathgate MA (01:24.104)
the cutting room didn't make the cutting room floor. Yeah. Yeah.
Chuck (01:26.772)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or ended up on the cutting room floor. I think it's how that if we're going to Kate, sorry, Shannon, Ryan, if we're going to get into metaphors this early on, let's get them right. OK.
Shannon (01:27.221)
But yes, I am doing really good. That's okay.
Ryan Bathgate MA (01:36.146)
Screwdrivers, Phillips, just like a Phillips, just like a Phillips, just like a Phillips.
Chuck (01:42.186)
Have you seen that episode yet, Shan, with the Phillips screwdriver? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fuck sakes, yeah. That has come up in comments, in personal conversations now with people. yeah, that one definitely did not end up on the cutting room floor, so yeah, yeah, yeah. Who would have thought, right, who would have thought that was gonna make a reel? And quite a successful reel, by our standards, so yeah, right, there you go. Yeah, anyway, anyway.
Shannon (01:42.293)
Yes, I did. Yeah, yeah, I did.
Ryan Bathgate MA (01:50.514)
Yeah.
Shannon (01:53.802)
Yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (01:55.09)
The things that stick though, I mean, come on. Like, yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (02:04.205)
Ha! Ha! Alright. That's humility.
Shannon (02:06.199)
Hehehehehe
Chuck (02:13.044)
There's a few things, guess, for people that are new to the platform, and we have so many. Ryan, if I can, I'll touch on it. Ryan, of course, recently had a relapse. But geez, we're going months now, what, six? Got to be about five months now, something like
Ryan Bathgate MA (02:31.816)
37 days.
Chuck (02:33.464)
137 days, four months of change. Yeah, I had to math it for a second there. Yeah, yeah, Four and a half months -ish, right? Yeah, yeah. Okay, so, and of course, since embrace the 12 -step program again or fellowship again, both, okay, yeah, and it is definitely finding its way. I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but I thought if I let you do it, that's gonna be half the episode, so
Ryan Bathgate MA (02:35.336)
Pop! Yeah, yeah. Better get the Africa soap.
Ryan Bathgate MA (02:51.26)
Both. Both.
Chuck (03:02.412)
That's why did that. Shannon, of course, has is in long term recovery at how many years? I want to say eight, but there's a lot of people's I keep track of. right now. Nine years, nine years. OK, OK. Wow. Congratulations. Good for you. That's hey, that's coming up. Yeah. Golf club, golf club. No, good for you. Good for you. And I mean, you made reference to it already, Shannon. We did an episode a while back where
Shannon (03:02.931)
Hehehehehe
Ryan Bathgate MA (03:03.878)
Ha ha ha.
Shannon (03:10.069)
On the 21st it's going to be nine years. Yeah. Thank you.
Ryan Bathgate MA (03:16.732)
We do a lot of clapping in the rooms, you know?
Shannon (03:22.321)
Yeah, exactly. Thank
Chuck (03:32.44)
We didn't end up airing it because none of us thought it was going to be helpful to anything. Ryan had expressed some resentments towards Charles' program. And I don't even know that resentment encapsulates at all because there's some intellectual stuff there too that I think you still probably disagree with in some ways. But that's not my place to say. But it was a resentment that certainly caught our attention. Is that a fair way to say that?
Shannon (03:57.429)
Yeah. well, yeah, resentments. And what I got was, yeah, there was almost like a wall of some sort up and deflection of some sort back towards what has worked for me type thing.
Chuck (04:18.796)
Yeah, yes, which, definitely, and you know, of course, Shannon, you, you were not comfortable with the way things had played out. And again, we're not going to get too much into that. Ryan, does that accurately describe it for me? I'll give you an opportunity now to just kind of correct or say your thing without taking a path.
Ryan Bathgate MA (04:38.012)
Who me?
Chuck (04:39.116)
Yes.
Shannon (04:40.478)
You. Yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (04:45.928)
To be honest with you, like, there
I mean, I have a different perspective, but there are some things that I still see, you know, like the reality though is that I'm not anchoring into anything like that. Like it's just noise to me. It's just, it's become completely irrelevant and unimportant. Well, no, or anybody for that matter, but, but you know, like, like
Shannon (04:59.764)
Mm
Chuck (04:59.894)
Yeah, of course. Of course you do, right? Yeah.
Shannon (05:10.985)
Well, it wasn't serving you. Yeah.
Chuck (05:13.782)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, right.
Ryan Bathgate MA (05:21.148)
There's value in everything. like, I don't, I don't,
I think I needed that period of my life to really understand what the difference is between really distraction and what's primary. like, you know, like the simplicity of it all is, is really takes place in the form of a humility approach. And what was lacking in that perspective completely was any sense of humility. And
Shannon (05:57.001)
Mm -hmm. -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Chuck (05:57.714)
I think we can agree, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, right,
Ryan Bathgate MA (06:00.166)
And when we remove humility, invite ego, and ego needs to protect, and it does that so naturally through the social tapestry of men, through anger, or I guess metaphorically slapping it out of the way, or you know what I mean? It's just like, because it threatens the existence of this organism within ourselves that is the addictive cycle.
Chuck (06:04.439)
you
Shannon (06:18.953)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Ryan Bathgate MA (06:28.91)
And it's like backing a dog into a corner. It will do whatever it can to make sure it's relevant within my own existence while it has power. Fortunately, through, don't know if you guys read the Daily Reflections today, but it says, in everybody's case, pain is our admission into
Chuck (06:38.304)
Absolutely.
Ryan Bathgate MA (06:58.556)
And so that's what happened. Pain became more important than the fear of change. And it's a really awful place to be, that pain overcomes fear. But for me, in my many different versions of this story, that's been always the case, is that my arrogance creates a disconnect so vast that the only...
Outcome is loneliness which ultimately requires a coping mechanism or coping strategy and that strategy is very reliable Because it works every time I drink that thing and I change the way I feel you know what I mean? and so But what you know and it became more important to be to be Optically okay, and it was really easy to deflect that by some very edgy and controversial
Chuck (07:28.813)
That's weird.
Chuck (07:36.61)
Yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (07:52.762)
Is that make sense? It's a dangling keys.
Chuck (07:54.358)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Makes sense to me. Yeah, yeah, it does.
Shannon (07:58.043)
Makes total sense.
Chuck (08:00.93)
So.
Ryan Bathgate MA (08:01.063)
Yeah, so,
Chuck (08:03.778)
So then I wanted to, this is a curious thing and Shannon, I'm gonna go back to you with this because it's something that I've experienced so much since Ryan and I got back to work together here and know, things have gotten back on track and I'm beyond thankful that that happened. Beyond. But this change, this new Ryan, and I don't even know that it's a Renaissance Ryan, maybe we're gonna call it that Ryan, to use some of your own language, right? Like this kind of,
Shannon (08:17.596)
Yeah,
Ryan Bathgate MA (08:31.482)
It's a release from captivity.
Chuck (08:33.624)
Okay, okay a couple episodes ago he was encouraging me to do 12 step work All right, and I'm sure you caught that right and for like I was like, holy shit man and any is okay I'll be honest. He has he's certainly inspired me to want to do that more So for someone like yourself after that experience and I want to stop referencing that experience because it's it serves nobody But so so a good way to move out of that Yeah, yeah, right.
Ryan Bathgate MA (08:38.747)
Heh heh.
Shannon (08:39.668)
Mm -hmm.
Shannon (08:54.439)
Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (08:56.232)
To be honest with you, it leaves me with a gross feeling, that experience.
Shannon (09:01.451)
Mm
Chuck (09:02.948)
So as a way to segue out of that, now, when you're watching Ryan and I talk in these episodes, what's going through your head? Right?
Shannon (09:07.665)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Just absolute happiness for Ryan. Like, I just, as I was listening and just kind of watching and listening to, you know, like he said, just, you know, the further he's going away from ego and reconnecting with people, the more authentic he's becoming. And I just was really happy to hear
embrace that side of recovery and recovery is not the same for everybody but you know there are certain certain models that have proven to work better than others you
Chuck (09:52.418)
Yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (09:52.442)
Unless you're the one in a million. Like me.
Chuck (09:55.384)
Like, like, like Ryan Dazbin, you know, I'm special. Terminal uniqueness. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, my mom told me I wasn't fat, that I was just husky. So let's just dispel with that shit right now. Right. So yeah. See, you see. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Shannon (09:56.507)
Well, my mom always did tell me I was pretty special,
Ryan Bathgate MA (10:01.104)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. My mom did too. That's where I got that from.
Shannon (10:08.277)
But no, I just like, and I mean, I felt it so much that, aw, big boned.
I'm a mom, I know these things. I felt so compelled that I wanted to reach out to Ryan and just say, I wanted to just discuss where you're at and how your whole, I don't know, it was just a feeling that I got that I was just happy that he had come out of whatever it was because recovery is not linear. It's up and down and up and down and it's happened to me.
Chuck (10:46.921)
Fuck it's it's three -dimensional. I like to tell people like it's it's not even you know up and down. It's like
Shannon (10:49.147)
Exactly. And I mean, I can get into that shitty mind frame and bad self -talk where I can talk myself out of doing anything, talking to anybody, reaching out to anybody, you know? And so I've been there. I've been there where I've isolated and, you know, not wanted to talk to anybody or live any sort of program or any sort of happiness recovery, right?
so I just wanted to reach out and tell him that I was really happy for him and how just the change I can see in him, you know? Yeah.
Chuck (11:27.18)
No kidding, right? No kidding. Ryan, what you got? You got something on your mind?
Shannon (11:32.436)
Yeah, he's thinking.
Chuck (11:33.953)
Hahaha.
Ryan Bathgate MA (11:33.969)
believe it or not.
I don't. I was, well, you know, was, was absorbing that and I'm thinking
Ryan Bathgate MA (11:48.648)
I can't get, you know, okay. What came to mind was the original term of addiction. Okay, I know. Addiction was meant as a term of endearment when it first showed up in the English language.
So when you were courting a woman, you would be addicted to that woman. You know what I mean? And then the slave trade came in in the United States and the meaning shifted into ownership. So when you were sold at an auction as a slave, you were now addicted to that plantation. And then that's how it developed into, as that campaign came out in the early 1900s, it was part of the suffragettes as well,
Chuck (12:11.19)
Okay.
Ryan Bathgate MA (12:32.964)
it started to go into being the best slave to, blood, blood, I think was the original target. And, and so that's how we know that turned it in. And that's what it feels like, honestly, like to go into, lose humility, to turn your back on, a recovery process and is really to turn my back on myself. And it's exactly what I did. And it's my biggest regret in that period.
Chuck (12:41.784)
OK.
Ryan Bathgate MA (13:01.904)
because that's ultimately, if I would have, my life would look a lot different right now. However, I would be lacking a lot of wisdom around what I gained from that experience. which is proving to be quite helpful in this little four and a half month stretch. And honestly, like I'm really grateful that I belong in recovery because to come back in was so much easier.
Chuck (13:06.921)
Yeah.
Shannon (13:14.803)
Mm -hmm.
Ryan Bathgate MA (13:30.768)
all of the things that have been, know, the consequences I'm living in, if I didn't have this other experience, there's no way that I stay sober. Like the amount of stress and the amount of disruption of life that I've been going through, self -imposed, no victim status here. It was like, there's no way that I would have been able to do that in my first crack at recovery, like, you know, and right now that is a
Chuck (13:58.101)
Of course.
Ryan Bathgate MA (14:00.124)
defining thing because of our f**k the fentanyl out there, you know what I mean? So when you have a medical system against you, and I don't mean against me, it's against all of us. The thing about, you know, our systems are built mechanically and our human beings are not mechanical beings, we're organic. And so we work in cyclical ways, yet the systems work in right angles and sprockets and you it's very, you need to fit them all, right? And so like, that's why the medical system doesn't work, the education system doesn't work.
Shannon (14:06.871)
yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (14:28.488)
The legal system doesn't work. You know, there's all these holes. And the reality is it's never gonna be fixed. 20 years ago, there was holes in all those systems. And 40 years ago, there was holes in those systems. You know what mean? So I guess what I'm going with this is like, you kind of learn how to be, to remain human within these systems because of learning about things like grace and patience and tolerance and understanding. And that's what it takes to be able to navigate those systems. And if I didn't have this experience from...
my previous long -term recovery journeys, then I probably wouldn't be faring too well. I guess is what I'm getting at. And really, the real difference this time is I'm not fighting with science. Yeah, and it's like, fuck it, right? I look at it like, this whole, I always had a problem with God. That word is like, go fuck yourself. You know what I mean?
Shannon (15:11.605)
You've laid down the sword.
Shannon (15:25.491)
Mm -hmm.
Ryan Bathgate MA (15:26.118)
I'm not buying your psychopedias. to me, was very snake oil salesman. And then I just put my daughter up against that. And I'm like, I don't give a shit what I got to believe in if it's going to make her life better. You know what I mean? all of that shit disappeared while I'm sitting in a jail cell because the ultimate act of humility was gifted to me. And that is I'm an alcoholic. I have a substance use disorder.
Shannon (15:28.156)
Mm
Shannon (15:41.672)
Yeah,
Ryan Bathgate MA (15:55.974)
And that's that, I'm gonna have that rest of my life. And there's no book I can read or person that I can walk through a therapy process that's gonna fix that or change that. No! I am so fucking not unique.
Shannon (15:58.825)
Mm -hmm.
Shannon (16:05.838)
and you're not unique. I mean, we're all the same,
Shannon (16:13.141)
I know. I found, you know, when I first started going, I found two things. I found people that were truly happy, like that were actually laughing. Right. Yeah, like, yeah, exactly. And I know, right? Yeah, exactly.
Ryan Bathgate MA (16:23.637)
Like like suspiciously though, you know like mmm I'm not buying it. I'm not buying it. No fucker. Yeah, like five years without a drink. Okay Sure as if you're not going home
Chuck (16:28.012)
Hahaha!
Shannon (16:43.317)
and that we all spoke the same language. Like we all kind of, no matter what it was, our brains were all the same and our experiences were maybe tweaked a little bit, you know, but we all had the same thing that we cannot drink.
Ryan Bathgate MA (17:00.452)
That's that same emotion pool that we share. You stick around long enough and you hear your story. That's how unique we all are. You know what I mean?
Shannon (17:05.117)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, yeah, right, exactly. And I think that's, you know, I had talked previously about like a support system and you know, how important that is, you know, and that that creates that instantly, like you can go anywhere online, you can go any town. And you can find that, you know, like I have like the personal support system where it's like friends, family, that sort of thing. But
Ryan Bathgate MA (17:27.944)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Shannon (17:37.093)
know, there's certain times when that's needed as well.
Ryan Bathgate MA (17:42.)
I got a question for you, Shan. Tell me, what do you think the role of sponsorship is?
Shannon (17:43.977)
Mm -hmm.
Shannon (17:52.597)
Well, that's an interesting question because there's two things that I think. I think that it has evolved sort of from the old school, tell it like it is, you know, that sort of thing. But the main thing is accountability and guidance through learning. Like to me, the 12 Steps is a life program. Like it teaches you how
live like I didn't have any of those rules previously like you know look at what you did today do you need to say sorry to anybody you know just little things like that that just had never even entered my head before it was just like full throttle straight ahead and don't look at the wake right yeah exactly so I think that sponsorship does that and
Ryan Bathgate MA (18:42.598)
Yeah, self -serve, self -serve, self -serve. Yeah, yeah.
Shannon (18:51.621)
know, it guides you through that and it imparts knowledge that maybe you wouldn't think of because they're supposed to be kind of impartial to your personal struggles and stuff like that.
Ryan Bathgate MA (19:05.239)
Interesting. Okay, what I, you know, I came up in a really old school way. And so, and you, so I was taught like, I used to go this little back room in my home group in Toronto, and it was full of guys that got sober in the 40s and 50s. And so they would say that sponsorship is sharing your experience as it relates to the 12 steps to the Alcoholics Anonymous and the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Shannon (19:07.316)
What's your thoughts?
Shannon (19:13.333)
where they just tell you like it is and yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (19:34.192)
And that's it. so, and what that means is no seeing any men for one year is not in the
Giving financial advice is not in the book and that's the way I was taught. So it was like, you don't get personal. You talk about your experience as it relates to and then help relate other people's experience to the 12 steps in the big
Shannon (19:48.851)
Yeah.
Shannon (19:59.347)
Yeah, because the steps are like you're supposed to work through them. there's like, that's what I mean by guidance is, you know, when you're doing this stuff, this is kind of what you do, you write this down, you look at this, you process this, and we'll talk next week.
Ryan Bathgate MA (20:07.121)
Yeah, yeah,
Ryan Bathgate MA (20:15.664)
Yes, ultimately, like I believe personally, it's about safety. It's about creating safe connections to be able to be vulnerable and really like journey into a place that most of us have never gone before, which is a vulnerable, organic emotion center, you know, and like, and so I don't, don't sponsor anymore because of my profession, but, when I did,
Shannon (20:20.627)
Mm -hmm.
Shannon (20:25.768)
Yeah.
Shannon (20:31.569)
Yep. Yep, that's true.
Shannon (20:41.273)
Okay.
Ryan Bathgate MA (20:44.968)
it enhanced my life. So that 12 step element becomes, that's where the rubber hits the road. When you start to talk about your experiences as you learned through your set of steps from your sponsor, then that carries that on and carries it on. Yes, but I think it gets a little diluted in, I think, I guess it's the human nature, I guess, of the presence of power.
Shannon (20:58.088)
Mm -hmm.
Shannon (21:01.845)
Yeah, well that's the 12 step.
Ryan Bathgate MA (21:14.396)
William Golding says, absolute power crops, absolutely. So I've seen some really kind of harebrained things of like, you can't wear makeup for six months and like, mm.
Shannon (21:22.567)
Yeah, I know. Well, that's a personal interpretation of something. That's not, you know, and that's where problems arise with, you know, and that's why there's the traditions and that's why they have those little sayings like, you know, take what you need and leave the rest, keep it simple, stupid, you know, we have no opinions on outside matters, like just stuff like that where it just always diverts you back to the program.
Ryan Bathgate MA (21:42.184)
First things first.
Ryan Bathgate MA (21:52.392)
So I think, I mean, you brought something up that is quite telling in your understanding, and that is the importance of traditions. I think that, and I'm kind of picking on things a little bit, and I'm not, I wanna get, what I wanna do is I wanna get somebody who's experienced with long -term recovery and their opinions on the matter. So I'm not trying to pick anything apart. I'm just, these are the kind of the things that I notice.
Shannon (22:00.659)
Mm -hmm.
Shannon (22:12.753)
Mm -hmm.
Ryan Bathgate MA (22:19.08)
I've been to other fellowships where it's like the traditions are non -existent and the way that I came up, it was so important. Like as soon as you finish the 12 steps, you go into the 12 traditions and then you start working on that. You know what I mean? And I think that, like, I mean, it's the glue. It's what's held it together since 1939.
Shannon (22:25.799)
Mm
Shannon (22:29.331)
Yeah. Yeah.
Chuck (22:36.28)
So, if I can interrupt here, and I do want to, Mike Miller and I actually did an episode, episode 224, so that's where I've kind been a busy, busy year, looking up that episode to make sure that I had it, where, and I don't know, Shannon, if you caught that one, I don't think you did, but it's a must listen to where he defends the 12 step fundamentals.
Shannon (22:36.435)
Well, it's exactly it. It's the,
Shannon (22:53.845)
Maybe? Yeah, I think so. I think you sent it to
Yeah, yeah, I think I listened to that one.
Ryan Bathgate MA (23:00.178)
That's it,
Chuck (23:02.613)
in the most eloquent way possible. He breaks down the entire process and basically to all of the people that insert their own weirdness into what can't let's be honest, that's what it is, right? Like some of the awful shit that you hear, some of the toxic shit that you hear and just some of the really weird stuff, Of course it is. And that's what he does is he breaks that out of it.
Shannon (23:19.112)
Yes,
Ryan Bathgate MA (23:22.152)
But that's a human element, that's not the program.
Chuck (23:28.184)
And says, here, here's what it actually means. If you, if you read it word for word, if you take it, you know, the way that it is and, without, without inserting our own stuff into it and did an amazing job of it. So 224, that is right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's a must listen to Ryan and I don't, I don't ask you to listen to the amount. I understand you have a really busy life. This is one of those ones where like, you've got to go back and listen to that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He did. He did an amazing job of it. Yeah.
Shannon (23:39.059)
Yeah, yeah, I think I remember that and it was really good.
Ryan Bathgate MA (23:51.334)
No, no, you piqued my interest. I love the traditions. I think they're absolutely essential. And I think that it's something that we, I would like to see a resurgence or a renaissance of the traditions, personally. But you know, I find in AA, it's not lost. It's just like social media makes it a little bit gray. I don't want someone taking a picture of me saying, great meeting.
Shannon (24:13.715)
Mm
Chuck (24:16.608)
I would ask about something there. I want to ask about and here's a conversation that I've had with with more than a more than a few 12 steppers and I'm never really happy with how that the answers that I get. So I'm curious, happy, satisfied, maybe the anonymous part. So and I think self the border in the US, it's much more common for people to jump on somebody for coming out and saying, I'm a member of the 12 step. I'm 12, you know,
Shannon (24:43.039)
Mm -hmm.
Chuck (24:44.824)
The language there is very different too. You'll see somebody more often in the USA. I'm a member of a 12 step fellowship, but that's you know what I mean? It's a very vaguely bit because of because respecting the anonymous part. As an outsider, as an outsider, if I can finish my point because there's a whole question here, Shannon. So as an outsider. The anonymous part to me says respect that about anybody else that's in there. Right, like never, ever, ever give somebody's name or whatever. It's not a.
Shannon (24:53.471)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm. Well, so, Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Chuck (25:14.648)
If I choose to say that I'm a member of 12 steps, piss off. Right? And I think that's how I interpret that. So there's something that I don't understand about the resentment that comes from the community sometimes, directed at people that choose to say that on social media. Shannon, I'll let you start because you were just about to say something and I cut you off.
Shannon (25:18.25)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Shannon (25:36.117)
Sure. So a couple of things like, so speaking of the 12 step, which is service, I started speaking more at like recovery centers and I go into high schools. There's one high school that I go into and speak. And when we introduced ourselves, we're there to like educate people on the 12 steps, 12 step program. We introduce ourselves and say we're a member and that we're choosing to break our anonymity.
in order to spread the message and you know teach people plant the seed whatever. But yes anonymity is if I see you in the grocery store and you don't say hi to me that's fine because you might be with your husband that doesn't even know he thinks you go to book club every Monday night or something you know and so there's no questions.
Chuck (26:28.086)
Yeah, yeah, of course.
Shannon (26:31.803)
about, how do know that person, you know? So, I mean, I've done it before where, you know, you walk right by each other in the grocery store and you just make eye contact and look away right away. And you know, okay, that person doesn't want to say hi to me. Yeah. You know, and so it's, it's to protect those people that want that, but don't want to have that label. Yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (26:45.232)
favorite.
Chuck (26:46.85)
you
Chuck (26:55.266)
Which makes perfect sense to me, right? Perfect sense to you. Ryan, do you have any, like in a different interpretation, do you agree with that?
Ryan Bathgate MA (27:01.704)
Yeah, have a lot. Yeah, I do, First of all, it's no different than the ethics of counseling, where if I see a client, I don't say hi, they can come to me, but I can't go to them. So I just kind of treat it like that. I read a grapevine in 2001, I think. 2000, because I was in Calgary. And it talked about anonymity as
its intent and its intent is for equity. So the reason that the anonymity is a spiritual foundation is because it makes everybody equal. And the example that they gave was that if, and this was written a long time ago, if somebody came in and their last name is Rockefeller, they will instantly be treated differently based on the social status. They will not be equal. And so that's why they were not supposed to use last names. And so that
Me being a first name, I'm just a human being in a room with a substance use disorder, you know, with someone else. We're all the same. And so it levels the playing field. And then to speak to outside of the rooms. like my home group in Toronto was full of actors and none of them ever wanted, like they wore baseball caps and pulled down load meetings. And so it was very important. Some of my friends, and they would explain to me that it can be career
Shannon (28:05.748)
Mm -hmm.
Chuck (28:05.933)
Yes.
Chuck (28:11.276)
OK.
Ryan Bathgate MA (28:30.49)
if someone finds out I have a fentanyl addiction, you know what I mean? Like I'm not gonna get hired. I'm not gonna book another job in the film industry. And you can say all you want about, what's the word I'm looking for? It being unfair, but the reality is you just won't get booked. You know what I mean? And so I had done something to learn this. Obviously I fucked something up to learn this lesson. And I think I gave my friend a phone number.
Chuck (28:38.976)
Of course.
Chuck (28:50.186)
Yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (28:59.62)
of one a fellow member and he fucking lost it. then I was like, yeah, totally. I totally understand that. And now as a counselor, I definitely understand that because it can be really damaging for people. We never know. Like, you know, we see the memes all the time. You never know what the other person is going through. You know what I mean? And so, and, you know, to be honest with you, to me, to be able to uphold that as a member, I feel good about myself. I feel like I'm doing the right thing. And so it also enhances my intrinsic resources.
Shannon (29:15.657)
Mm -hmm.
Chuck (29:16.236)
Yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (29:29.754)
and concretizes or galvanizes my membership. Yet, however, there is a responsible pledge, which means I'll put my hand out for any alcohol that's so suffering. And so, it's a line, but I do that in meetings, not at the grocery store. I don't go to the guy who's buying a bottle of booze and be like, hey, you need to call me. I got a solution for
Shannon (29:34.527)
Yeah.
Shannon (29:42.441)
Mm -hmm.
Shannon (29:56.373)
yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (29:59.336)
Yeah, so you know, it can be tricky and it's all like all of these things are can be over complicated and put into practice in a a messed up based on my perception I messed up way, but it might not be for them I don't know, you know what I mean? So like I can sit here and pick things apart and it's really easy to do that But the reality is I don't know what's happening in people's lives at any given time and so for me to cast that judgment
Shannon (30:25.13)
Mm
Chuck (30:25.164)
Yeah, no, fair enough, right?
Ryan Bathgate MA (30:28.508)
The usual me, arrogant and ignorant. But over the years, I can't help but pick up on things that I'm like, hey, what does that do for me? It makes me feel like I know something. And you know what I mean? It's just, again, it's false ego thing. I'm smarter than you. I know more about. I have. This is my favorite. The guy that comes up to the podium and tries to recite how it works without using the sheet and then fucks it up. It's my favorite.
Chuck (30:32.439)
Yeah.
Chuck (30:45.06)
Yeah, fair enough.
Shannon (30:58.421)
yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (30:58.564)
It's my favorite thing in the world. I think I'll give you that cheat after all, you know? Like, dude, you, yeah. Yeah, like, you didn't get three sentences.
Shannon (31:01.941)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, a humbling experience for sure.
Chuck (31:04.152)
There's...
Chuck (31:09.799)
I'll tell you something kind of funny that just the other day yesterday, think it was of course having a Facebook platform and you know, you get comments from all sorts of different people and there's always that guy who makes every meme every post something about the 12 steps and you know, it takes humor out of it and it's like, well this and you know, and it so I sent a message to one of my fellow content creators with a screenshot of this comment and said,
Shannon (31:20.329)
Mm -hmm.
Ryan Bathgate MA (31:27.954)
No.
Chuck (31:37.848)
Great, you've been reading the same book for 20 fucking years. And now everything you see, you have to inject your perceived wisdom because you've had, you you've reread the same book for 20 years, right? And you're sucking the fun out of it. So stop it. Stop it.
Ryan Bathgate MA (31:47.132)
Yeah.
Shannon (31:48.851)
Mm -hmm.
Ryan Bathgate MA (31:53.544)
You know, that actually, so that makes you think of this. I was at a meeting many years ago and this guy came to me and said, I think this guy must have got loaded, but he said, you know, would you go to a doctor that worked out of a textbook from 1939? And I was like, damn, no, I wouldn't. And then it was like altered trajectory. I was like, yeah, fuck the big book. You know, like just like off and running. One little comment. Yeah.
Shannon (31:53.682)
I know.
Chuck (32:16.584)
Hahahaha
Shannon (32:20.863)
Yeah, well, that's what I mean. It takes nothing to talk yourself out of something or like have those resentments where you don't want to go because fucking Joe said something you didn't agree with. So screw him. I'm going to show him by not going to a meeting.
Chuck (32:25.854)
yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (32:30.802)
Yeah.
Chuck (32:33.428)
It's 100 % that is what stopped me from going. And I've been open about that since I came back into recovery. It was after that that I had a relapse and whatever. And it's not why I don't go now. It's just logistics more than anything. it was, I was looking for resentment. I found a resentment and I didn't have to go. And I think we can, almost anybody who's been through the process without, can relate to that anyway.
Shannon (32:36.723)
Mm -hmm.
Shannon (32:46.398)
Yeah.
Shannon (32:51.785)
Yeah. yeah.
Shannon (32:58.642)
then
Ryan Bathgate MA (32:58.672)
And that within itself is a complete lack of humility. You know what I mean? you know, right now, the conversation in my head is really simple. I don't have a year of consistent sobriety together, so I go. Doesn't matter what I think, doesn't matter what I feel, doesn't matter if I'm tired or I gotta get up early, I fucking go. That's it. There's no conversation. I just go.
Chuck (33:02.636)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
Chuck (33:25.122)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (33:25.446)
You know, like I was sitting on sat last Saturday, I don't usually go to a meeting on Saturday because I'm playing ball, but I got home early. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, fuck, I'm sore, I'm tired, there's a meeting in half an hour. I'm not going. And I'm in my truck and on my way. Because honestly, eventually, I put it up against my little girls and that - nothing stands, nothing holds up. You know what I mean? Like, there is no excuse. This is gonna make her life better somewhat. Whether it's a fucking millimeter or a mile, it doesn't matter.
Shannon (33:44.073)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Ryan Bathgate MA (33:54.664)
It's going to improve her existence. And I'm here today because of them. I probably wouldn't have made it through that relapse alive. If it wasn't for my kids. To be honest with you. Because honestly, I was tired. And I was fucking done. the last thing in the world I wanted to do was have to come back and take another chip, another 24 hour chip, and tell everybody what kind of a loser I am. You know what I mean? And obviously it didn't go like that, but my mind told me that's how it was.
Shannon (34:00.703)
Mm -hmm.
Chuck (34:04.94)
Yeah. Right.
Shannon (34:05.908)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Shannon (34:20.201)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah.
Chuck (34:23.647)
Of course, of course it did. Of course it did. I want to ask you about that, Ryan. That moment, that particular moment. Because there's a whole process here that we've talked about. I think it's beautiful. But that moment when you're back in that room grabbing that chip. Can tell us how that felt?
Ryan Bathgate MA (34:26.064)
And you know
Ryan Bathgate MA (34:41.969)
You're exposing me. I didn't get it. I didn't get a
Chuck (34:44.183)
Kind of my job. Okay, okay, okay. That's not what I meant to do. Yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (34:50.213)
Now, here's why. I'm a traditionalist. I believe in the home group. I was taught that to take your chip and anywhere else in a home group is attention seeking. And so you take it at your home group, that's it. You don't make a fuss. I didn't have a home group. I got a home group in week two. I took my first month chipping my home group in every chip since.
Chuck (35:06.101)
okay.
Chuck (35:14.368)
Okay, so that moment then let's let's get that moment. How's
Ryan Bathgate MA (35:20.104)
To be honest with you, it starts with a lot of shame. The first thing that goes through my mind is I'd have 26 years if I didn't fucking fuck up the first time. You know what I mean? And then the second thought is if I didn't fuck up a second time, I'd have 15. You know what I mean? And so like right away it goes into this like, you really screwed this up. Like, you know what I mean?
And then I got the chip and I got a hug from I call him the General. I can say that because it's not his name. And I don't even know if that's true. I probably fucked that up. but... Sorry, sorry General. And Candyman. Deedlejuice, yeah. And then and then it was like I got this
Chuck (35:58.86)
Ha
Chuck (36:03.576)
Just to make sure we said it twice, general three times. Okay, now we're done. Okay. Yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (36:18.034)
pouch and I put it in the pouch and that's for my girls and so now I have a little pouch that they're gonna get every chip in my first year in my one -year medallion and I give that to them at the end of the first year and so again meaning -making you know and so it shifted in that moment when it became about the girls because going up there it was still about me you know what I mean when it was shame it was about me when it became about them it didn't fucking matter
Shannon (36:43.113)
Mm
Shannon (36:46.857)
Mm -hmm.
Ryan Bathgate MA (36:47.526)
You know, and so again, again, it turned what I thought was important into noise that it actually was. And so much of my life was noise that was masqueraded as first class importance. You know what I mean? and those, and the infusion of willingness and humility shifted everything.
You know what mean? like, dude, I've read a couple books. That doesn't make me fucking special. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know what I was thinking. I wasn't. I was doing everything I can to protect an addiction. Including being a pompous, arrogant
Chuck (37:29.336)
Yeah, yeah, which I mean, I mean, cognitive ability is kind of the first thing that's affected, That's what addiction's doing, right? You know, yeah, yeah.
Shannon (37:36.127)
Mm -hmm.
Ryan Bathgate MA (37:37.202)
Dude, what I really learned this time, Chuck, is how much it changes me outside of actually consuming. The moments between I'm a different person, there's a chemical imbalance that happens, and that's the difference, from what I've seen, that's the difference between those with substance use disorder and those without, because they don't change when they're not drunk. You know I mean? Like,
Shannon (37:51.679)
Mm -hmm.
Ryan Bathgate MA (38:04.296)
I have lots of friends that drink and they're normal people and they drink normally and they don't turn into a liar on Wednesday when they drink on Friday. I do that. You know what I mean? Post -acute withdrawal would state that it takes up to 18 months to return back to a healthy state of mind in your brain.
Chuck (38:13.686)
Yeah. Yeah.
Shannon (38:15.677)
Yeah, that's totally, yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (38:28.968)
Now that's a long, you if you got a guy drinking every day for 25 years, it's gonna take 18 months. For me, it's like seven months maybe, but I just went through the most emotional part of that post -acute withdrawal cycle and it was awesome. You know, it fucking sucked, but it was awesome. You
Shannon (38:41.737)
Mm
Chuck (38:47.64)
Shen did you did you experience
because your story's a little different than ours, right? Like you were still, your rock bottom was very different than, I shouldn't say very different. Your rock bottom was unique to you and that's fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that's why I'm asking the question, Ryan, is if you can go back to that, if you go back to that,
Shannon (39:03.857)
Mm -hmm. It's quite high. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (39:04.38)
But situationally different, - Emotionally not,
Ryan Bathgate MA (39:12.336)
Sorry, spoiler.
Shannon (39:14.941)
Mm
Chuck (39:18.324)
those emotions, those ranges of emotions that that happened in early recovery for so many of us, myself included. That was a hot mess when I started this podcast. Right. Like I really was. And if you go back and listen to the early episodes, whoo, it's there. Right. Yeah. Right. Fuck. Yeah. Was that like that for
Shannon (39:24.147)
Mm -hmm.
Ryan Bathgate MA (39:30.696)
Storytime, yeah?
Shannon (39:38.741)
Yeah, definitely. So I kind of felt when I hit my bottom that I was just kind of, I kind of explained it as like void of any spiritualism feeling connection, you know. So to come out of that, I had to feel all those things, right? So I mean, everything that I...
avoided everything that I self -medicated for, stuff like that. I just had to feel them. So I remember coming out of it and actually seeing different, like physically seeing different things. Like I tell this story of when I would walk my kids to the rec center. It was about a block and a half from my house and I'd walk by my friend's house every time.
And my first year of recovery, was walking by his house and there was this beautiful tree with all these, I don't know, was apple blossoms, but they were beautiful and it smelled really nice. And I remember looking at this tree and I had never seen it before. And I had walked by that for the last five springs, walking my children to the pool or hockey practice. I remember driving and seeing a whole
mountain range that I had never seen before because it was like I was just slowly coming out of myself and looking out right. So yeah emotions yes I spent a lot of time crying a lot of time angry a lot of time you know jealous like every emotion because really I didn't hadn't identified or used any emotions in a long time previous to that right so I just had to.
Chuck (41:23.769)
Yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (41:23.836)
That makes me think of something.
Do you think that the state of your intrinsic resources of self -esteem, self -worth, and self -respect are directly dependent on your ability to regulate emotion?
Shannon (41:42.773)
Well, I would say yes, because if you're not regulating your emotions, for me when I'm not regulating my emotions, I'm reactive. I'm, you know, do stuff that hurt other people. I do stuff that hurts me. So that doesn't make me feel good. Right. So in order for me to feel good about myself and feel like
Ryan Bathgate MA (41:53.83)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Shannon (42:08.039)
my authentic self, have to be regulating my emotions so I can process them and react accordingly, right?
Ryan Bathgate MA (42:15.77)
Okay, I'm going to follow up with another question. Do you think your intrinsic resources are directly dependent on your access to whatever spiritual belief you
Shannon (42:28.149)
Well, that's kind
Well, you know, I would have to say yes in a way because I have developed a spiritual belief since being in recovery. And that's when I've started to regulate my emotions more. Right. So previous to that, I almost wore like a badge of honor when I wasn't regulating my emotions. Do you know what I mean? Like telling people how it is, telling people off, you know, like just that was part of my makeup. Right. And
Ryan Bathgate MA (42:47.799)
Right? Yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (43:05.286)
Yeah, tunnel vision.
Shannon (43:07.187)
Didn't matter who heard it. Yeah, right?
Chuck (43:07.33)
That is so crazy that we take pride in that, right? Like, it's just nuts. I'm awesome because I'm an asshole, right? Like, it's just crazy. Yeah, yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (43:10.61)
Yeah, yeah.
Shannon (43:13.905)
Exactly, right? then as I kind of came out of that, as I kind of came out of that, yeah, like I developed a spiritual relationship. don't believe in, you know, and I see how the program chases people away with God because, you know, lots of people are very against that or whatever. But there's a whole chapter to the atheist which people can read. But
Ryan Bathgate MA (43:42.076)
Agnostic.
Shannon (43:42.599)
I created what worked for me and it's a god of our understanding and it's a higher power that we believe in,
Ryan Bathgate MA (43:50.696)
You know, can I, I've come to this thing, 25 fucking years of this, and I've finally figured something out with relative to the whole God thing.
Shannon (43:55.017)
Mm -hmm.
Shannon (44:00.051)
Mm -hmm.
Ryan Bathgate MA (44:03.976)
I think it's a god of my not understanding. That's where I've landed. Yeah, like I don't know and I don't fucking need to. I don't care. The evidence, no.
Shannon (44:06.769)
Mm -hmm. yeah.
Well, you don't have to define him or her, whatever it is, right? you don't, there's some things just don't have to be defined.
Ryan Bathgate MA (44:19.592)
And that's my point. It's like, can't enjoy a magic show. You know what mean? I gotta figure out what the fuck that guy's doing. I can't just go back and go, woo. No, why are you running into the chainsaws?
Shannon (44:24.853)
Yeah, I'm the same with like horror movies. just like
Yeah, that's so fake or whatever. Yeah, like sure that happens, you know, so I do the same way I just don't agree that because or enjoy it because my logical mind just kicks in Mm -hmm
Ryan Bathgate MA (44:41.628)
But I think that's why I struggled for so many years about this. First of all, I'm a man and the perfect being in the universe is not gonna be a man. We're idiots, so let's be honest. So for me to go him, no, you know what I mean? So for me, it's very gender fluid. Every time someone says,
Shannon (44:59.899)
Yeah, not having an idea.
Chuck (45:06.072)
is so fucking true. That is so true. my God. Right? By default, by default, we are just ridiculous human beings. Yeah. Yeah.
Shannon (45:07.357)
Yeah, exactly.
Ryan Bathgate MA (45:10.706)
For him, I'm like, eh. Like, you don't wanna, we're, we're, yeah, we're dumb, we're dumb.
Shannon (45:12.477)
Yeah, I know I do a little cringe too. Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (45:19.246)
Yeah, yeah, we constantly think with the wrong head. We both know that.
Shannon (45:20.693)
Yeah, I know. And that is like, you know, when you talk about laying down the sword, it's like in all aspects of your life, right? Like, if you stop fighting, having to define everything, if you stop fighting, controlling anything, then your life becomes a little bit more serene because you're not on guard 24 hours a
Ryan Bathgate MA (45:46.556)
Yeah, totally. And like, it's hard work. For me, it was almost exhausting to have to be right. You know what I mean? And in order to be right, I had to understand it enough to make you think I knew what I was talking about. You know? And so like, I just don't, I don't...
Shannon (45:55.923)
Yeah, I know.
Shannon (46:03.229)
Yeah!
I have this sign in my office and it says something like, I know you you thought I, you knew what I said, but you're not thinking right. What I was saying or something like along those lines where it's just like, and I'm right.
Ryan Bathgate MA (46:17.768)
Yeah Basically, you're yeah, I'm right. You're reading my mind wrong. Yeah You fucked up. Yeah
Shannon (46:25.401)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, right. And that's like, I don't know, I just find like, when you can actually verbalize that and realize how crazy we actually are then.
Ryan Bathgate MA (46:38.866)
Man, I think I need to start saying all my thoughts out loud because I'm what an idiot. Like, it happens in my mind. I'm like, that's such a good idea. like, whoa, whoa, whoa, get back in my mouth. Yeah, yeah.
Shannon (46:46.997)
And as you're saying it, you're like to somebody else, you're like, okay, let's just like, that's, that's what I heard. Yeah.
Chuck (46:56.28)
It's like the story of my life that is like every single moment of my life right there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 100%.
Ryan Bathgate MA (47:00.28)
Or like, you got that killer joke at the podium and you say it and nobody laughs. You even give it a pause. You give it big pause for people to laugh and clap and celebrate. like, just like, shaking, just shaking the seventh. Like, get off the stage. I have no experience with that, of course, but. Yeah, no, I, I mean, yeah. Phillips. It's a Phillips.
Shannon (47:05.24)
I know.
Yeah, and they're just like, okay.
Yes!
Shannon (47:20.286)
Yeah, I know,
Chuck (47:20.69)
no, no, of course not. course not, yeah. Drops a metaphor that everybody should just get, so then it turns out to be...
Ryan Bathgate MA (47:29.83)
Sup, fellas? You know, you get it. You get it. No, I mean, thesis of my argument is that, like, there's enough data, like, if you want to talk science, here's some fucking data for you. When I'm spiritually connected, my life is really good and I'm building. When I'm not, I'm an arrogant prick that's tearing everything down, pushing everyone away. That's the reality. Drunk or
Chuck (47:31.32)
Right? Right? It's a Phillips.
Shannon (47:51.359)
Mm -hmm.
Shannon (47:57.245)
Yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (47:57.468)
You know what I mean? And like, I've been sober and not connected spiritually and it's a miserable time. A miserable place to be. And you guys have all
Chuck (47:58.498)
Yeah.
Shannon (48:02.549)
Yeah, well it's a place of like ego right? Like I need to know the explanation for this and I need to know this and you know if you're far away from your ego you're more serene
Ryan Bathgate MA (48:11.311)
Mm -hmm.
Ryan Bathgate MA (48:17.448)
seek to understand rather than be understood. It's a trip. I think we've optically witnessed this transformation with me. We've watched the difference between what a person with substance use disorder looks like within their own entrapment of substance use disorder and how that manifests through ego.
Shannon (48:19.197)
Yeah. Yeah.
Shannon (48:31.049)
Mm -hmm.
Ryan Bathgate MA (48:45.978)
arrogance and disconnect and then we've watched a humbling that happened through really the worst Some of the worst I mean this has been the hardest time of my life and I've been through some shit You know the difference being that I'm not coping right now with substances I'm coping in other ways in other ways and those ways are the ways that were taught, you know, and they happen
Shannon (49:04.458)
Mm -hmm.
Shannon (49:08.219)
And you know, Ryan, I just need to acknowledge before we go very further is how amazing it is that you're sharing this whole experience with everybody because it normalizes and shows the human side of that. You know what I mean? And not a lot of people will step up and share to the extent that you have and how eloquently you have, you know, it's very important.
Chuck (49:36.802)
Yeah. Well, there's some coping laughter right there. I know what you're doing. Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (49:37.626)
I, I, I, yeah, like, it was the scariest fucking thing. And when I listened to it again, I was sick. So my stomach with vulnerability was...
Shannon (49:46.395)
Mm -hmm. I know I told you that like I feel like that after every time something's released, but that was pretty heavy like that was that was pretty Vulnerable and to be vulnerable is so hard.
Chuck (49:58.668)
Yeah, but vulnerability saves lives at the end of the day, right? You will never know if it was one person or if it was a thousand people or if it was more than that. People who you may have helped in that episode and who you've helped since by being vulnerable and being open about your experience, And it's very important, right? That I think, thank you for acknowledging that, Shannon. Right? know?
Shannon (50:00.925)
Yeah, exactly.
Ryan Bathgate MA (50:00.956)
Yeah... One a bit, one a bit.
Ryan Bathgate MA (50:21.244)
Yeah, and I'd like to second that. I am working on compliments. So thank you. I appreciate that. And it's very, very meaningful to validate and recognize that I do appreciate
Chuck (50:36.376)
Okay, now Shannon, have to remember, remember who we're dealing with. We have to be careful about the ego. So now we have to find a defect real quick here. Okay, yeah.
Shannon (50:40.861)
Okay, so let's yeah, let's think of something, knock him down a peg, okay.
Ryan Bathgate MA (50:42.14)
Look, I'm... I'm... I'm trying to be in humility here, you fox. Okay?
Chuck (50:46.07)
Okay.
Shannon (50:48.917)
Yeah, but yeah, all jokes aside, like good on you. Yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (50:53.294)
Alright, you know what, actually, you know what? You know what, Shan? You're absolutely right. I am amazing. Is that what you want to hear? Is that what you want hear? You're right. You're right. I think they should make a statue of me. I think that right beside Rocky in Philadelphia.
Chuck (50:53.544)
Sorry bro, I love you. It was low hanging fruit. had to. I'm sorry.
Shannon (51:01.755)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.
Chuck (51:01.952)
hahahahah
Shannon (51:10.203)
Right, yeah. It should be like in the opening of each episode is like the statue of Ryan.
Chuck (51:13.25)
Maybe two in case one breaks, right? Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Chuck (51:20.514)
Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (51:21.288)
Or, you what we could do is we could put, I dedicate this book to Ryan in every book ever written. Every book, yeah. I'm actually gonna be the author now.
Chuck (51:27.192)
Yeah. Yeah. Moving forward. It's like a whole North Korea thing happening here, right?
Shannon (51:27.465)
That's a good idea. The big book. Get it in the big book.
Ryan Bathgate MA (51:37.565)
Take a picture of me sitting beside a bed with some guy that's all sick, you know? Me and Chuck. Me and Chuck.
Shannon (51:39.669)
Sounds good. Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (51:45.98)
Me and Chuck with number three, you know? You poor thing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know what? Why don't we just put a painting of me in every living room in the world? Yeah. It's not fascist.
Shannon (51:57.864)
Yeah, why not?
Chuck (51:58.144)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. anyway, Kim Jong. Yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (52:03.686)
Anyways, no, wait, all that aside, honestly, Shannon, thank you, I appreciate
Shannon (52:08.904)
Of course, yeah.
Chuck (52:10.273)
Yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (52:10.286)
And yeah, it was scary, especially the remorse part, like, ooh. But I mean, I have never heard, I haven't heard, how could you do that, you loser? Nobody said that to me. Nobody said, like, why would you do that? And so, like, my mind is telling me you're an idiot for exposing yourself like that. And, you know, everyone's figured you out now.
And what happened is I got really nice things said like you just did and I'm trying to Have enough resource to embrace that But it's not easy. It's not easy to it's
Chuck (52:49.09)
Yeah. It's hard to do, man. It really is to accept a compliment. And we are like, still, still, with all the work you've done, with all the work I've done, which is different path, but nonetheless. And Shannon, I can't speak for you, but I'm sure it's similar. When you are paid a compliment, is it Ryan and I who just kind of laugh it off, generally speaking, right? Counter it with some sort of defect or something, right? You know what I mean? Yeah, right.
Shannon (52:51.925)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yep.
Ryan Bathgate MA (53:10.374)
With clients, I turn it around. With clients, I say, I say, did the work. I just listened. That's what I usually say. like, it's not, and honestly, I'm taking away something from them by doing that. Like they've had the courage to give a compliment, which is not anything to do either. You're putting thought into a vulnerable moment and then expressing it and articulate to another human being. That's a scary fucking thing. And I'm just like, no, it's not important. Stop saying that. Stop, stop. It was all you.
Shannon (53:14.281)
Yeah.
Chuck (53:18.517)
Yeah.
Chuck (53:26.486)
No it's not.
Chuck (53:33.528)
Yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (53:38.406)
And then my mind's going, yeah, right. Like that Jerry Seinfeld where he's like, you are a really good guy. Yeah, you should open up your own Pakistani restaurant. He's like, yeah, you're a good guy. That's my mind. like, yeah, you saved that guy. You sure did. All you don't even need. I'm going to put a Facebook post on this. You know, I can't wait to share about this at the next meeting. I was spiritually. You know what? You want to something funny? Okay. So Jimmy texted me the other day.
Chuck (53:42.541)
Yeah.
Shannon (53:50.57)
Yeah.
Chuck (53:51.34)
hahahaha
Ryan Bathgate MA (54:08.9)
And he texted me this text and said, I'm just about to post my gratitude list just to show everyone how spiritual I am.
I was like, yeah, Jimmy, super spiritual. Yeah, yeah, Jimmy, Jimmy Wences. Yeah.
Shannon (54:20.053)
So yes.
Chuck (54:22.936)
Jimmy Wednesday. I'm still not even sure. We haven't addressed that with him. I don't even know if we're allowed to say Jimmy Wednesday.
Shannon (54:25.106)
Yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (54:30.216)
I think I keep telling him I'm calling him that. It's not really an option thing, know? So here's what's happening, Jimmy. Very totalitarianist. Yeah, I know.
Chuck (54:33.962)
Okay, well, there you go. you go. Yeah, democracy. Yeah, I'm not sure. Do know who we're talking about when we say that Shannon? Jason. Jason, who he's he's had a few episodes on the show. Jason McMillan. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a whole backstory to Jimmy Wednesday, but it's you know, and maybe we won't get into that. But yeah, that's who we're referring to.
Shannon (54:45.17)
I don't know.
Ryan Bathgate MA (54:45.841)
Jace Jason.
Shannon (54:50.837)
yes, okay, yeah, yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (54:51.804)
Yeah. Super... Yeah, so yeah. Jimmy is funny. Jason, I call him Jimmy. It's never changing. And yeah, he's so relatable. There's something really organic. Yeah, like he's just like, you know, yeah. And he's like that, like what you see is who he is. Like that's who...
Shannon (55:02.995)
Yeah, no.
Chuck (55:04.215)
Yeah.
Chuck (55:10.584)
That's his superpower. It's 100%.
Shannon (55:11.913)
Yeah.
Shannon (55:19.807)
Mm
Chuck (55:20.254)
I have no doubt about that. is no doubt about that. That is one of the most authentic people I've ever met as well as relatable.
Ryan Bathgate MA (55:21.52)
Yeah, he does not change. One thing I'll add to that, and I think it's important for Jimmy, is that guy has been there from the moment I fucking relapsed. He has been checking in, calling in. I didn't call anybody when this happened. And the people that called me are the people that are in my life right
Chuck (55:45.57)
Yeah, yeah, right.
Shannon (55:45.641)
Yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (55:46.606)
And I'll just leave it at that. I don't see. I think bad. you know, and coincidentally, all those people are in recovery. Is that a coincidence? I don't know. But that says it sure puts all my arguments about recovery, the recovery community being shitty, all to rest because like it was Devo picking me up from jail. was Jimmy calling me. It was Nuder calling me. It was McCloud calling me. You know what I mean? Like, and I'm saying their names because whatever.
Chuck (56:06.166)
Right?
Ryan Bathgate MA (56:16.956)
But yeah, I don't know. I'm saying their names because I want to celebrate them. Because they're good friends and they're good human beings. if I get in trouble for that, then I guess I'm going get in trouble for that.
Shannon (56:19.892)
Yeah.
Chuck (56:23.928)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Shannon (56:30.481)
And you know what, and if there's pieces of shit in the program, you know, it's like, what they teach is principles before personalities, right? So you don't have to, and you know what? Half the time that grumpy old guy teaches me something about myself that I needed to deal with, you know?
Chuck (56:30.582)
Yeah, I don't feel like
Ryan Bathgate MA (56:37.766)
Hahaha!
Chuck (56:37.887)
Hahaha!
Ryan Bathgate MA (56:43.442)
Yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (56:49.736)
Those are my guys. I love the grumpy guys. That's who I surround myself with. Yeah, alright. They're like, shut up Ryan. I'm like, I love you man. I fucking love you. You you've talked enough. man, that guy's right after my heart. People don't say that to me unless it's Chuck. No problem with Chuck. Yeah.
Shannon (56:53.969)
Yeah, shocker.
Shannon (57:02.356)
Yes.
Chuck (57:13.464)
I do say it often, maybe too much.
Ryan Bathgate MA (57:18.128)
Yeah, maybe passive regressively make jokes about my long -winded rants. Yeah, I know how you work. I know how you work.
Chuck (57:22.614)
Hahaha!
Shannon (57:24.143)
Yeah.
Chuck (57:26.72)
I'm all about the paths of aggressive men. find it's a wonderful tool. Listen, you did say gratitudes in there. Of course, you're referencing Jimmy Wednesday, but what a great way to segue into the final segment of the show, and that is the Daily Gratitudes. Daily Gratitudes are brought to you today by FAR Canada. That's the Families for Addiction Recovery. They're doing amazing work. It's absolutely free services they offer.
Ryan Bathgate MA (57:28.304)
Yeah, it's my favorite.
Ryan Bathgate MA (57:35.944)
Jimmy, them.
See you spiritually.
Chuck (57:55.8)
four times a month they do meetings for people in similar situations. They also offer a peer to peer support system that's absolutely amazing. And of course you can get some real time support if you contact their number during business hours or markfarkanada .org. What you got for some gratitudes today, Shen?
Shannon (58:15.157)
Uh, gratitude. Lately I have been super grateful for my children. So I have three children. One is nine and he just teaches me so much about myself. Um, one's 18 and she's going to be moving away right away. She's going to go to school in Lethbridge in September. So I'm really grateful for all the time I get to spend with her now because
It's life is changing in that aspect. And then my oldest one is 22. we've just really reconnected over the last month, month and a half or so. And I just feel like I'm getting to know him again and we're rebuilding a little bit of a relationship and I just can't be happier.
Chuck (58:53.378)
That's awesome.
Chuck (59:00.898)
That's awesome. I'm happy for you for that. Ryan, what you got?
Shannon (59:03.036)
and
Ryan Bathgate MA (59:07.244)
yeah, shit. I was kind of in your... was hijacking your moment. I was in that. was like, yeah, that's awesome. You know what I Like, I get that. Post it! Yeah, everyone like it. Everyone share it. Like it, share it. I am grateful for my ego. No, I'm just kidding.
Shannon (59:16.425)
Thanks, yeah.
Chuck (59:17.167)
See how spiritual he was?
Shannon (59:19.933)
Yeah. Yeah. Facebook post. Yeah.
Chuck (59:22.392)
Ha
Ryan Bathgate MA (59:37.542)
You know, to be honest with you, like, I'm fucking grateful that I made it again. I'm grateful I had another recovery in me, because I wasn't sure if I did. And I don't know if I have another one, to be honest with you. I'm grateful for the people that show up in those rooms every day. I had somebody say to me, this is awful. One of the old timers, he's a dude.
He said, first of all, said, you're gonna make it this time. And I was like, interesting. And he said, you go to more meetings than I go to, and I go to a lot of meetings. And I was like, don't fucking tell anybody. I'm just kidding. But I was like, it was like
There was a validation in like how what I know of what works is a lot of work and a lot of commitment and a lot of discipline. And I'm grateful for Shannon coming on the show. I'm grateful for the time you have, but not just that, because you're not just a time person. You have wisdom, you have experience, you have insight, and you have a particular insight relative to us.
Chuck (01:00:31.5)
Yeah.
Shannon (01:00:32.105)
Mm -hmm.
Ryan Bathgate MA (01:00:49.148)
because not just being a woman, but being a mother, being a mother in recovery, somebody who got sober after children, is that correct? And like, so you had a child that was very young when you came in and then someone that was like nine. Your daughter was nine.
Shannon (01:00:57.191)
Mm -hmm.
Shannon (01:01:06.197)
So I had, they were nine, 13, and one and a half when I started. Yeah.
Ryan Bathgate MA (01:01:13.436)
The one and a half. So it must be really cool to see like the one and a half the way that they experience you compared to, you know what I mean?
Shannon (01:01:22.259)
Yeah. And he was just about one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's just, I've said that to people, like, I mean, hopefully he'll never see me drunk. You know, whereas the other two have.
Chuck (01:01:31.17)
Yeah,
Ryan Bathgate MA (01:01:35.388)
Yeah, I got one that's seen me drunk and one that will never remember. And the gift is that they won't ever have to again. And so, but I do, I was in the middle of trying to appreciate you coming on the show and bringing a different perspective. Also, it's really nice to like talk some recovery. you know, like, and like, you're not just, you don't just go to meetings. It's obvious. You have done the
Shannon (01:01:41.671)
Yeah, exactly.
Shannon (01:01:54.888)
Yeah, for sure.
Ryan Bathgate MA (01:02:03.91)
You put the time in, you know the unity, service, and recovery elements. I'm grateful for you. I'm grateful for you coming on the show. I'm grateful for you reaching out to me. And it was out of a place of absolute altruism and love. And that was cool. And I'm really glad that you got to come on here as a result of that conversation. And I always, always want to have you back. Always, always. I don't do the stuff. Chuck does that. But I'm always game.
Shannon (01:02:04.382)
Shannon (01:02:23.987)
Thank you. Yeah.
Shannon (01:02:32.745)
Yeah, awesome.
Ryan Bathgate MA (01:02:32.776)
If you ever want to come on, I'm in 100%. And of course my beautiful little girls and Reena and my family and these beautiful friends that I have. So yeah, I have an amazing life. yeah, if it had it my way, I would have fucking ruined it. So I am grateful for whatever's out there that is looking after me.
Chuck (01:02:50.668)
Yeah.
Chuck (01:02:56.532)
Yeah. For myself, grateful for another great conversation. Shannon, thank you for coming back on. are, again, you're always welcome. You're one of my favorite guests from a certain, right? Yeah, yeah. No, it's funny. And I'll speak to what Ryan said about that. You're obviously the person who does the work. It's not just about going to meetings. And you can tell when you've been on the show because I see this influx of numbers, which I appreciate numbers. Of course I do. It's my job. But,
Ryan Bathgate MA (01:03:05.927)
Me too.
Shannon (01:03:06.037)
Aww, you guys are so, thank you for those kind words, that's so amazing.
Chuck (01:03:26.008)
It's not what it is. It's just like, who is this person without a platform that managed to drive so much traffic when she comes on? To me, that speaks to who you are and what you're doing and all of those things. And that's amazing. So thank you for that. Yes. I'm also grateful. yes. Hey, if you wipe them up, it's sweat.
Ryan Bathgate MA (01:03:41.884)
So maybe you're unique.
Shannon (01:03:46.591)
Thank you. Yes, you made me cry. Thank you.
Ryan Bathgate MA (01:03:54.81)
It's sweat, yeah. It's so hot, it's so hot. It's so hot.
Chuck (01:03:55.092)
Right? Yeah, yeah. You're welcome, you're welcome. I'm also grateful to every single person who continues to like, comment, share, listen to, talk about all the things, every interaction with the content. Every time you do these things, you're getting me a little bit closer to living my best life. My best life is to make a humble living spreading the message, and the message is this. If you're in active addiction right now, today could be the day, today could be the day that you start a lifelong journey.
Shannon (01:03:55.8)
Yeah, right
Shannon (01:04:00.031)
That's really nice, thank you.
Ryan Bathgate MA (01:04:01.938)
That was a touching moment, I have to say.
Chuck (01:04:24.908)
Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, in detox, go to a meeting, pray, go to church. I don't care. Do whatever it is you have to do to get that journey started because it is so much better than the alternative. And if you have a loved one who's suffering an addiction right now, you're just taking the time to listen to our episode. If you just take one more minute out of your day and text that person, let them know they're loved. Use the words.
Shannon (01:04:43.592)
You are loved.
Ryan Bathgate MA (01:04:43.811)
You are
Chuck (01:04:46.198)
That little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings him back. Boom.
Shattered Stigma
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