263 - MIKE MILLER - BIG T & LITTLE T TRAUMA

Chuck (00:00.42)

Hello everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds. Welcome to another episode of The Weekend Ramble on the Ashland Stowellson Podcast. I'm your host Chuck LaFlange or Chris Horder whatever you want to call me. Checking in in Krabi Thailand, halfway around the world is my beautiful co -host Dr. Lisa. How you doing today, Lisa?

Lisa (00:17.202)

good. I'm happy it's Saturday and I'm happy to be

Chuck (00:21.316)

Good stuff, good stuff. Still enjoying some nice summer weather out there. Looks like it behind you anyway.

Lisa (00:25.63)

Yeah, it's like 30 something for the next 10 days again or so. We're having a nice hot summer right

Chuck (00:32.856)

That's like high eighties in American, I guess, right? So for American viewers. And of course, our returning guest and good friend, Mike Miller, who's also in my part of the world here in Krabi, Thailand. How you doing today, Mike?

Mike Miller (00:47.342)

I'm good, I'm also glad it's Saturday. 30 sounds pretty nice and chill compared to the massive humidity that we're experiencing here, but yeah, it's good. It's nice to be back.

Chuck (00:58.588)

yeah, yeah right and it is the humidity that is yeah the wet season here it's actually a few degrees cooler than than it was a few months ago but it is so much many more degrees more awful in in the in that it's so much more humid so yeah but anyway there's some small talk about the weather we got that out of the way and moving forward so yeah so for anybody that's not familiar with

Lisa (01:18.462)

Hahaha!

Mike Miller (01:21.398)

important

Chuck (01:27.106)

with the platform and of course right now we're in middle of a massive growth spurt growth spurt I should say. So I'm assuming that there's new people listening to this. Mike, you head up the Yatra Center, the Yatra Trauma Center here in Krabi. Can you kind of give us the one minute on what Yatra Center is rather than me having to explain it like I usually do in the promos?

Mike Miller (01:48.802)

sure. So we are residential treatment facility that, well, one minute, you're putting the pressure on me. You know, I ramble. it exists because I worked in addictions, and behavioral health for a very long time. And during the pandemic, I was doing, you know, I got into trauma, treating trauma, treating addictions through the lens of trauma before the pandemic, through the pandemic, people would seek me out specifically for.

like trauma therapy, EMDR in particular, internal family systems. And I would say to them, you know, it'd be very beneficial if we could do some things to regulate your nervous system, like yoga and all that. And people would say, yeah, it probably would be, but you know, like I'm locked in my flat in London. It's a pretty big ask to get me doing that on my own. And so I thought as the country's opened up, if I just brought that stuff all to their doorstep in one sort of comprehensive package with the therapy, the psychotherapy and the body -based stuff, then

probably get better outcomes. And it's just treating, a lot of the times treating what I call compulsive self -soothing addiction through the lens of treating the underlying trauma instead of just taking the drugs out and leaving people with the pain. We want to like treat why they have the pain that they're medicating anyway. So more than a minute, that's, it's hard to sum it up.

Chuck (03:05.476)

Okay, okay. No, it is hard to do in a minute. And again, for people that aren't aware of our stories or whatever, I came to Thailand to experience your residential treatment program. I myself have some massive benefits that I've seen as a result of. to say that my life has been positively impacted in a very macro way is not an understatement in any way, or form, right? And I've been very public about that.

Where I wanted to go with this episode in particular, and of course when it comes to trauma and addiction, well we've done a whole bunch of episodes, we could go on forever and talk about a million things. Specifically though, the complex trauma, the little t trauma, and I don't even know if it's right to use those two terms in the same sentence and refer to them as the same thing, but that's just kind how my mind interprets when somebody says complex trauma. think of the little t trauma stuff, if that makes sense, right?

And how that affects us in you know, of course we've talked pre record on on the things that we wanted to go over here. So

Where to start with that?

Mike Miller (04:18.616)

Well, let me jump in on that for just one sec. Just because to sort of clarify some of that terminology, little T and big T, not everyone uses that sort of terminology, but the understandings that I would have of it would be like big T, like capital T trauma would be like life threat, like threat to your own life and limb or someone around you witnessing that. Whereas the little T would be more like relational trauma stuff. And I think that while you can have relational trauma, like, you know, being bullied where you're not necessarily.

Chuck (04:20.878)

Please do, please do.

Mike Miller (04:47.946)

any physical threat, you know, having a parent who's quite critical on an ongoing basis, things like that. Those can be relational or little T traumas, but they don't necessarily end up with like complex PTSD. PTSD is, and Lisa can correct me if I'm wrong, and this is sort of a per -ally as well. You know, it's a diagnosis that you get a lot of the times, it can be from one

sort of like big T trauma. Like if someone's in a plane crash, they can have PTSD or if they're attacked by someone, they can have PTSD. Complex PTSD is gonna be like, I was in a relationship that was ongoing with traumas along the way and it might be relational. There might be like sort of big T events in there as well. But the complex trauma diagnosis is gonna be because it took place repeatedly over a longer period of time. And essentially on the nervous system, it's gonna have the same effect.

coming out of treating complex trauma, the timeframe is much different. Because if someone's been in a plane crash, it's not outside of the realm of possibilities to treat that really, really quickly with things like EMDR, where you can desensitize that memory in possibly an hour. I've seen that happen,

Chuck (05:44.185)

Yes.

Chuck (06:03.469)

because it's a memory, not this extended timeline of events or whatever you want to call it. Yeah. Okay, Lisa, that? Yeah, yeah.

Mike Miller (06:08.492)

Yeah, like a lack of safety for like, yeah, months or years at a

Lisa (06:14.458)

Well, I'm like, yeah, and yeah, definitely. so I am not trained in EMDR, which I just noticed now that Mike has a t -shirt on that says EMDR. Didn't notice that before.

Chuck (06:26.148)

I love that shirt.

Mike Miller (06:29.208)

I have a new one coming.

Lisa (06:29.342)

But it's great. But so for EMDR or the other one that I think there's a lot of similarities or overlap to would be ART or accelerated resolution therapy, I think similar principles. And a colleague of mine who does a lot of ART work, she's described that you want to sort of have a scene that you can.

that you're gonna work through. So the difficulty is that, yeah, if you're in a plane crash and you survive, but you witness a lot of death, the scene's pretty obvious, right? That that's the scene that you're going to target with the trauma therapy. The difficulty with the prolonged little t traumas is you're meeting with somebody who say for 20 years has been neglected or invalidated or put down or shamed.

And so, you know, harder to do, think, Mike, is that fair to say? Like trying to come up with that scene.

Mike Miller (07:32.44)

Absolutely. And I get that. Yeah, we get it quite a lot with EMDR too. Like when you set up processing of the memory with EMDR, you always go, okay, well, what's the memory? What single static image? not like a movie, but like a photograph, what image represents the most disturbing part of that memory? And so a lot of time it's not an image you could have maybe seen. maybe Chris and I have some form of like fight or something like that. I might see that from

third person POV like from a security camera thing. Like I could not have physically seen it, but that image represents the memory to me. And then you can work on it with that because it does set the scene. have the image. That's just what it represents. mean, memory is like highly fallible anyway. So chances are I might be seeing it a bit wrong. But if that's what it is, how I remember it, if that's how I see it, then that's the image we go with. Now, when we have someone who say has like an unpredictable

possibly potentially violent parent. I always use the example, like alcoholic dad, sometimes he comes in and he's like happy and sometimes he comes in and he's like, could be like bullying or verging on violent or even violent. Every time his car pulls into the driveway, I'm gonna get this like, and then he comes in and he's happy. So I'm like getting in this fight flight response ready for some sort of event that doesn't happen, but I still have the same effect. Now, if that goes on,

every day, like that's 365 times in a year. You know what I mean? Like, then you ask someone, what's the image? They might say, oh, it's sitting at that window and seeing his car. But if it's not just from the car, if it's from any interaction with them, they might, a lot of times what they say is they go, I just have so many, it's like a felt sense more than like specific memories. Like, oh, on June 8th, 1986, this thing happened. They don't have that. They just go, it's like just this like sense of my dad isn't safe.

With the MDR, we can go with the felt sense, but I always try to get the scene or the image where possible, because that's kind of the standard protocol in the MDR. But it's harder for

Chuck (09:34.604)

Of course, right. And I should say right now, right out of the gate, because we only have an hour, we're not gonna go into the individual modalities. For anybody that's listening that wants to know more, if you go to the website, 808podcast .com slash trauma, there's a bunch of episodes where Mike has come on with both myself and with Lisa, and we've talked about these individual therapies. So check it out if you wanna know more as we reference things like EMDR or IFS or CBT throughout the rest of the

Please do go and it's actually, some of the work I'm most proud of on podcasts are those episodes that we put that out, because they're just so informative. So please do go check them out. Go ahead, Lisa, yeah.

Mike Miller (10:03.022)

herty.

Lisa (10:14.14)

And so I think something else is probably important to talk about as we go into this episode with this idea of talking a lot about sort of the little T traumas is the validation piece for people who are listening. Because I think a lot of times what I experience is again, when you are experiencing little traumas repeatedly and often your entire life, people normalize

and they sort of minimize the impact that it can have on them. So yes, if somebody has a gun put to their head, if somebody witnesses, someone get killed, if somebody almost gets killed, you don't have to convince them that they've experienced trauma, they'll know it. What I actually find interesting is that when people, when I see people, and for me, it's mostly in the day hospital program I'm at where I would deal with this kind of stuff. But when I see them,

I feel like I repeatedly have conversations after I've gotten to know them where I'll bring up the fact that I think that there's a huge trauma component to what's going on. And they will look at me and be like, I didn't have trauma. Like, you know, a lot of kids went through that, really wasn't a big deal. And so they, but often they've been taught to dismiss it or to sort of put it down.

And the point is, is those things have a huge impact on how you view yourself, how you interact with the world, how you respond to your life as an adult. It's so rooted in these little things. And the point is, is anything, anything that is constantly sort of beating you down, putting you down, making you feel unsafe, making you have a sense of uncertainty in the world, unpredictability,

it, when it's compounded, it is very profound. And I actually would say even harder sometimes to treat than the big T traumas.

Chuck (12:17.016)

Most certainly. A couple little, I want to jump on something little and then something a little bigger there, what you just saying, Lisa. just as plain curiosity here, have you found that in your work that has shifted since we've recorded all these episodes about trauma, have you found yourself at work, just out of curiosity now, with more of a trauma lens and looking at things that way? is that just something that comes with being a psychiatrist and being good at your job?

Mike Miller (12:17.028)

for

Lisa (12:48.478)

I think, so to be honest, one of the most

altering things for me on here has been some of the IFT stuff that Mike has taught me to be honest, you know, is the part of me and like exploring, like, let's go down that part of you. I think the trauma stuff, really for me, it's kind of come more from, you know, so when I'm working with a patient in day hospital, it's like a four week program. So it's like, we start out going through like obvious big diagnostic stuff about like, you

Chuck (13:00.524)

Okay, yeah, yeah.

Lisa (13:24.712)

psychosis and depression and anxiety disorders and that kind of stuff. Then I'll spend a significant amount of time talking about people's childhoods, every single patient I work with. And I'm telling you, it is a gold mine. It's like, you know, we'll go through childhoods, everything from what was your family unit made up of? Tell me about all the people in the family unit. Tell me about your relationships with every individual person in that family unit.

tell me about how your parents engaged or interacted with one another or with your siblings. Tell me about like all of that stuff. And when I am done that I'm like, I get it. I get it. Because that is

Chuck (14:05.892)

I can just imagine there's that clinical side of you that would get it, but then there's this empathetic side of Lisa that we all know and love, right? So I can just imagine you're like, fuck, I can totally get it, right? I can just see that happening for you outside of the clinical version of who is Dr. Lisa, right?

Lisa (14:23.678)

But I think I've had like these, it's almost, and not anymore. I don't think it catches me off guard or surprises me, but there was definitely a time when I would start to go, almost feel like this is trauma. And it surprised me that there were so many trauma symptoms. And when I would dig at the trauma, there was nothing big T, but there was a lot of particularly that.

unpredictability in their childhood, feeling unsafe in the world, unpredictable parents, a lot of shaming, invalidating. And that was, and I would like dig in the beginning, because I'm like, there must be something else, there must be something else. Like you have all these trauma symptoms. And I dig, dig, dig for the trauma and would go, okay, like, this is all from this repeated little T stuff. And then I, but it was amazing to me how prominent their trauma symptoms were.

And it was all secondary to repeated little T traumas.

Chuck (15:27.534)

So I'll go back to you, Mike, now to make this about me, because that's the narcissist in me. I'm just kidding, of course, but I have to ask, so my experience with you was when I got to Yatra, I firmly believed right up until probably the first time in therapy with you that I was there to address this big T trauma stuff that I'd gone through while on active addiction, which was horrific and terrible and all those things.

By the time I finished my stay in your program, I had come to find out that so much of my behavior, so many of my relationships were in fact, affected by trauma that predates any of that stuff. And really I would say that that's probably where most of the long -term value has come in for me. Because I've been able to, I address those core beliefs when I, mom doesn't call me back for three days or when, you know what I mean? Those things that used to

I don't even like the word trigger, it is what it is, right? Is that a familiar, like is that kind of a normal equation to happen for you, you know, in your work?

Mike Miller (16:36.12)

For sure, because it speaks to the myths of trauma, the misunderstandings of it. So a lot of it, know, kind of speaking to what Lisa said, what her experience, like there must be this big thing back there. Like people think that and that rationalizing, like, you know, if you look at the one definition of trauma, you know, it's things that happen outside the range of normal human experience, right?

So if you're like a first responder inside your normal human experiences, like seeing someone in a car crash, but like, if I go see that, like that's outside of my range of normal human experience, it might be traumatic, but it doesn't have to be either because Dr. Zoe Wyatt, who is like a clinical consultant with Yatra, she did her PhD on trauma and resilience with a lot of people that have been trafficked in Cambodia

what they found and all the research about it shows that with resilience, it's about the relationships that you have around you. You're less likely to have a traumatic response. So I always look at trauma as like, it's not what happened. It's what you're left with after, like what's the legacy of that thing. So this speaks to like, well, everyone went through that. I remember the first time I was getting trained in trauma and I learned about big T and small T and I left the room with the guy who was doing the training and I said, yeah, I think I probably have some small t stuff

And he's like, yeah, like what kind of stuff? I said, well, know, like getting held hostage and being shot at and he was like, I think that's big T stuff. And I was like, I was like, like that was just an occupational hazard for me and all my friends when you're like selling drugs and running around in addiction and stuff. like, rationalized it away, but my nervous system doesn't rationalize it away. And that's like what, what Lisa is saying is like those symptoms are there regardless.

Chuck (18:06.948)

Hahaha

Fucks sakes.

Mike Miller (18:27.5)

A lot of people have this thing where it's like trauma is relative. So it's like, well, I, this can't be trauma because the worst thing happened to Chris, you know? And the example I always use with people is like, well, like if my hand gets cut off and Chris's shoulder gets cut off, it's not like, this doesn't hurt now just because his shoulder, like his arm got cut off at the shoulder. It's like, no, this still really F 'ing hurts. So there's a lot of stuff in there where it's like people think trauma has to be like, and I use the examples all the

Lisa (18:36.093)

Yes.

Chuck (18:45.73)

Except, of course, right.

Mike Miller (18:55.96)

childhood sexual abuse, plane crash, living in a war zone, that kind of stuff. It doesn't have to be that. Those things definitely can be traumatic, meaning they leave you with a legacy, feeling unsafe, post -traumatic stress disorder symptoms, sleep disturbances, exaggerated startle response, whatever it might be. There could be all kinds of stuff from that. But that unpredictable father can leave you with those exact same symptoms. I remember saying to people,

Lisa (19:23.922)

Yeah.

Mike Miller (19:25.55)

Yeah, sure, my parents divorced or split up when I was really young, but like 50 % of marriages, and like, big deal. It's like, well, it was a big deal because like, this speaks to the core belief stuff, right? We form these beliefs about ourselves, other people and the world. We're not even necessarily awake. Like it's not this belief I have in my head that I go, the world is unsafe. It's this knowing that I have that's like programmed into me.

I know the world is unsafe. How do I know that? Because it was unsafe at this time, I internalized that. And then that becomes the lens that I see the world through. I don't even know it's the lens I see the world through. So, you know, when my parents split up and I come home from school one day and I say, you know, we, we, lived in Vancouver. Then we, as a family moved to Vancouver Island. I come home from school one day and I say, where's dad? And my mom goes, he moved back to Vancouver. And, and by all accounts, so the way I remember it, this could be wrong. Cause you

I heard this long time ago. I think I was like, dad's in Vancouver now, like no big deal kind of thing, right? Like, exciting, I have a dad in Vancouver. But like, I started to form beliefs about myself that I didn't know I had, which is like, people go away. I'm not lovable. I'm not important enough to stick around for. And then I would have like, you know, a girlfriend and we'd get in an argument and I would be like, okay, well, I guess that's over. She doesn't love me. She doesn't want to be with me. you know,

or I would have, if the three of us were friends and me and Chris got in an argument, I fully expected Lisa to dump Chris as a friend. And when you didn't, I would be like, what, like, you're still friends with that guy? Like, I couldn't understand how we didn't just jettison him because that's what happened to me, right? I didn't know that that was a belief that I had that was informing all of my relationships. And I was telling you guys in the pre -recording thing, I had formed this belief.

around that stuff with my dad, which was and further experiences with my dad growing up, that people are disposable. That was this belief I had, because it wasn't just I'm disposable. It was like people are disposable. And I had this job as a prep cook and it was at this restaurant called PJ Burger and Sons in Burnaby when I was like 18 years old. And my job was as a prep cook. Yeah, it doesn't exist anymore.

Chuck (21:41.166)

Shout out to PJ Burger and Sons. I don't know. just, I gotta say. Okay.

Mike Miller (21:47.106)

had they treated me right, they'd probably still be around. No, just kidding. So.

Chuck (21:52.516)

recruit the shit out of all my friends, nobody ever went there again.

Mike Miller (21:55.874)

Yeah. So I, my job as a prep cook was to like this, this particular day cook up this huge batch of fettuccine. This is really funny too. The guy gets out these baggies and a scale and he goes, can you portion the fettuccine into these baggies on the scale and then put them away? And I kind of laughed. I was like, yeah, I think I can figure that out. I got a little bit of experience with the scale and the baggies. But yeah, comes back and he's like this.

Chuck (22:14.788)

Yeah, it's just like I'm fuck I got this down and I can tear that scale out I can yeah, I got this. Yeah. Yeah. I got a whole system for this. Yeah

Mike Miller (22:25.314)

This guy is really quick learner. So I had to put them. But she gets it.

Chuck (22:31.106)

Lisa's laughing like she's not a muggle. That's funny.

Lisa (22:35.55)

smuggled, but I get

Mike Miller (22:38.162)

but anyway, so I, had to put the date on the bin of these baggies and put the bin into the, walk -in cooler. And I had put the next day's date on it. And my boss came along and said, you got the wrong date on that. It's off by a day. I went home that night and I was like, he's going to fire me. He doesn't want me there. And I literally just never went back to that job. The amount of power that that belief had, which is that they're going to get rid of me. was it just like, I

Lisa (23:05.342)

So you did it first.

Mike Miller (23:07.148)

Yeah, well that was the easiest way and I did that in romantic relationships. I did it with all kinds of stuff. was like, instead of me saying goodbye,

Lisa (23:12.892)

And easier, also, I think easier, also you took the control in what you thought was going to play out, right? You had the story in your head and you're like, I'm going to be the one to do this. I'm not going to let you do it to me.

Mike Miller (23:21.752)

Yeah, well you

Mike Miller (23:28.578)

you can't abandon me if I abandoned you first. And then I'm not hurt, even though inside I'm really hurt because I know you're gonna do it. But yeah, I did that in all kinds of relationships. Yeah, and it was a measure of control and it was about like, limiting the wound, right? That was bound to be coming, even though it wasn't actually probably coming, right? So it was like, and then it reinforces the belief again,

Lisa (23:31.454)

Exactly.

Chuck (23:49.124)

And I think, Mike, that's probably, I'm guessing, and to people that are listening or watching right now, it's probably one of the most relatable behaviors that you could possibly lay out there is that getting rid of it before they get rid of me kind of thing in relationships as a result of things that have happened in their pasts, right? So, yeah. No, no.

Mike Miller (24:10.338)

That's attachment, wound, abandonment stuff, like really common, I think. Like I don't want to say that's the truth for everyone, because, you know, but when I see that stuff, that's where my curiosity goes is like, so we have abandonment, we have attachment wounds. I'm insecurely, I'm anxiously attached to people. I'm avoidantly, you know, I'm out of here. You know what I mean? Like you don't, you don't get to do that to me. Yeah, it's sort of textbook stuff.

Chuck (24:33.858)

Yeah. So as you know, I've been very open about the things that we've talked about in your office, but we talked about kind of avoiding. To avoid specifics, though, and like, you we are talking free record, but. There's things and Lisa's mentioned this a few times in other episodes, I don't know if it was a few mic or not, but I have a very clear image of Lisa talking about things that we think.

Mike Miller (24:42.562)

I can neither confirm nor

Chuck (25:02.784)

at the time are completely irrelevant or unimportant or what you call throwaway comments. You said earlier, I think, before we were recording, there was a term you used. really liked that. Those throwaway comments, that type of thing that happens when you're a kid that can turn into a much bigger thing throughout the rest of your life and lead to some of these core beliefs, right? So you kind of have a generic or, know,

a canned example of that type of thing, if you want to lay that out. We can talk about how that can affect people down the road. Go from

Mike Miller (25:39.042)

Yeah, well, I mean, with the throwaway comments, like it could be anything from like, I go to my parent and say, I want to be a doctor when I grow up and they go, don't be silly. You know, say I'm a girl, girls can't be doctors. know, like, you know, when you're my age, that was might've been a belief that was held when I was a kid in the seventies or something. Girls can't be doctors. that, that,

Chuck (26:03.83)

I remember telling my parents I wanted to be a hairdresser and they laughed and laughed and I didn't know why.

Mike Miller (26:08.13)

Yeah. Yeah. So then, so then all of a sudden, like your dreams get laughed at, right? And then you're going to not have as much confidence in those dreams, perhaps, right? And that stuff can linger on and linger on. And then that might, you might have less confidence in your decision making ability. And then you might become like a bit of a people pleaser. What do you think I should be? And this is all just like the legacy of a comment that your parents would perceive as being a throwaway that really was not, there's no, this is one of the things we come up to.

Chuck (26:15.556)

Yeah.

Chuck (26:29.762)

Wow.

Mike Miller (26:36.716)

Like, are we just blaming the parents? know, like Lisa, you talk about the childhood all the time. I talk about the childhood all the time. It's almost like the cliche stuff. But the reason it's cliche is because, you know, like people like this is where the operating system of a computer gets installed is when you first fire up that computer. You know what I mean? And with humans, like our operating system is these core beliefs. They get installed when we're quite young. And then that, you know, so it's like, I might form beliefs as I'm older, but a lot of them are installed like pretty young, right?

So I think that we're not blaming parents. 95 to 99 % of the clients I see, their parents are good people with good intentions, did the absolute best job they could with the tools they had. The problem was they didn't have great tools and at times they didn't do the best job, but they were still doing the best. I'm not blaming parents. So we say we're not blaming and shaming. We're just naming what the dynamic was and we're naming what happened and what came from it. Like I might have the most loving parent.

who drops me on my head by accident and I might be afraid of people or heights or whatever. There's no intention in that, you know what I mean? I know it's a silly example, but this stuff can form the legacies that can follow us. So we always end up talking about parents, but I'm not throwing parents under the bus. This is just the world that we lived in at the time and the most important people are our primary caregivers and that's our parents usually.

Chuck (27:44.206)

Yeah, of course, of course.

Mike Miller (28:04.312)

So we're not blaming them, it's

Chuck (28:05.944)

Absolutely. And really, you have no way of knowing. You know, the example, I'll be a little more specific in it. We grew up very, very hand to mouth, right? know, mom was single mom for a while and then, you know, even one step, we didn't have a lot of money to say the least, right? So we didn't get some of the nice things that other kids got. What I didn't know back then, and I know now was they were, you know,

Mike Miller (28:17.399)

Mm. Mm.

Chuck (28:32.964)

working extremely hard to get the house paid off, so can make a future, all those things. But as a kid, don't, like, there's no way in hell my mom could have known that buying something for herself was going to affect me in this way 40 years down the road, right? And make this turn into a core belief about myself that was gonna, there's just no possible way. You can't say that she didn't have the tools or that she didn't, she

Because it's impossible to think like a fucking 10 year old, right? Like, because you're not a 10 year old, you know? You're just doing the best you can as an adult and as a parent, right? Like, you know?

Lisa (29:07.228)

And I think too, like, you also need to add in that our parents were also kids once upon a time.

Chuck (29:17.006)

Yes, right. And they were raised by monsters really, like at the end of the day, right? If you're going back a couple of generations, holy shit, right? know, spare the rod and all that stuff, right? So, right?

Lisa (29:18.428)

And they also had parents.

Right?

You know, but so like, cause I find I do often have conversations with people where there's two parts to it. One is I can sometimes tell that patients are minimizing and protecting their parents when I'm trying to get this information and we'll have the conversation that, you know, we're not, as Mike said, we're not looking to blame or point fingers. That's not, that's not the goal. But the reality is,

you're born with a temperament, you're not born with a personality, right? And your personality evolves over time. And obviously, you're not generally born with any sort of an active psychotic illness either. So it's like these things come about because of what's modeled for us. So what we see our parents doing, how we see our parents behaving.

you know, how we're treated by people in the house, at the school, relationships that we have. So the only way to understand somebody is to have that information. But I feel like I often have to explain that to people. I didn't know you couldn't tell me anything about your parent that's going to make me say, they're a terrible human being, you know, screw them, right? Because even when there is terrible stuff, I will sometimes say

Lisa (30:50.418)

you know, imagine what maybe happened to your parent that would bring them to a place where they're doing that to you. And again, the parents not in the room, so we don't get into it. But there, often have those conversations that you got to remember, like, somewhere along the way, your parent thought that, you know, either thought or didn't think, because sometimes it's deeper rooted than active, active cognitive thinking. But yeah, like our parents are also kids.

and were also raised and also have all kinds of stuff and are even less likely to have to have any kind of therapeutic work.

Mike Miller (31:22.648)

Yeah, and

Mike Miller (31:27.672)

For sure. And then you could even get into like generational trauma and epigenetics and all of that. Like, you know, could unpack all of that kind of stuff, which we're not gonna do here, but there's, it's, this is the thing. It's so complex. It's not simplistic enough to be like this happened and now it's this. your parent was mean to you and this happened, cause that's not the case. I kind of went with, when I was in treatment, vilified my father, alcoholic, terrible, hate my dad, blah, blah, blah. You know, really I was just like a wounded kid that

wanted my dad to be my dad, but I couldn't say that at the time. was just like, fuck him, I hate him, pardon my language. And I would have fought anyone to the death that even hinted that my mother wasn't a saint, right? And I couldn't even acknowledge that she didn't do everything perfectly. And the truth of the matter is like, she's a human being and she did, she was a single mom busted her ass to give us everything that we could have.

and I didn't have everything, you know what I mean? But she still probably sacrificed tons of stuff to make sure I, a, know, a selfish, entitled little kid wanted. But there's probably times when she didn't do the best job. You like I remember a glass top coffee table smashing on my foot and I needed to go to the hospital and she was upstairs drinking with her friends. I mean, she's in her 30s hanging out with her friends. Like drinking is fine,

You know, she couldn't take me to the hospital and I would even to say, maybe, maybe that wasn't the most responsible thing. Like I would never have even been able to acknowledge that, right? Like there wasn't a babysitter. Every adult in the house was drunk and I'm a glass smashed on my foot. Like it's not predictable, but you know, I couldn't even say like, eh, maybe she could have got a babysitter if she's going to drink with her friends or something. You know what I mean? Probably money got in the way of that. You know, as an adult, can acknowledge.

Chuck (33:20.686)

Yeah.

Mike Miller (33:26.124)

that woman did way more than could ever be expected, the best job she ever could, and yet she's not perfect. And I don't feel like that's a traumatic incident, but you know, just, kind of goes the other way of like, you know, I'm not, not only was I not blaming my parent, but well, I was blaming one and not blaming the other, and I couldn't see either one of them in a really rational sort of way. They were both like, one was like idealized and the other one was vilified, and neither one of those things were really true.

Chuck (33:33.988)

Of course not.

Lisa (33:55.813)

And also I think like kids are very concrete in their thinking, right? So when we have experiences as children, we'll develop concrete explanations because children are concrete, they're black and white. And so as a child, dad leaves, dad's bad, mom stays, mom's good, period, right? And then what happens is that that thought just kind of gets set that way. And if you don't do therapy, sometimes it surprises me a little bit, but it's like also people like 40 years later,

Mike Miller (33:59.746)

Mm, for

Lisa (34:23.742)

who are still suck in this black and white view on something. And it's the thing of nobody is black and white. We are 10 million shades of gray. And obviously we can sit here as adults

Chuck (34:36.452)

More than 50 shades of gray. Sorry, that was low brow, fucking horrible. yeah, okay, yeah. That's my line. love that. So blame, not only is blame not fair, in 90, like you said, 95, 99%, it's not useful at

Mike Miller (34:42.35)

was bad. I'm embarrassed for you right now.

Lisa (34:44.926)

He's cringing right now.

Mike Miller (34:58.146)

Not useful.

Chuck (35:01.996)

It doesn't serve the person. It wouldn't serve me to say it's mom's fault that I have this core belief or it's dad's fault this or absolutely not. If anything, it would do the opposite of serve. It's only going to add to the misery in your life.

Mike Miller (35:14.004)

I'm not gonna allow you to get into a solution of it if you're shifting the blame. Blaming doesn't, there's no solution in

Chuck (35:19.692)

Of course not, right? Yes, yeah. So, please do, yep.

Lisa (35:22.384)

So something, can I say something about that though, Chris? Because I feel like there's one thing, like I felt like there was a danger in that statement. Whereas, yeah, there's no value into blaming somebody. And I'm not saying you were implying this, but just I feel like that's where my thought went. So I believe there would be other people who would have the same thought is that that doesn't mean that it's, it should be dismissed either. Right?

Chuck (35:43.821)

Of course. Yeah.

Lisa (35:51.858)

The fact that we can't blame somebody or that it's not all because of something doesn't mean that we could take any thought and play this game with it. But it can be the most, as adults, we could look at something in someone's childhood and we could think that seems like the most benign situation or event. But it can be monumental.

Chuck (36:10.744)

Well, I certainly didn't indicate that, or wasn't trying to indicate that, but I see what you're saying. And a good example, something that we joked about pre -record. I was sitting, I remember my parents sitting at the supper table talking to their friends and mom said, who would ever want to take a bath if you're sitting in your own dirty

almost 40 years later, I still can't take a bath. Right? But, and it's true, so it's kind of a perfect example, right? I'm not blaming mom for that. Naming it and not blaming it. That's a really simple and great way to say it. Of course it is, because that's what you do. But, yeah, naming it, not blaming it. Which is, right. Please do, yeah.

Mike Miller (36:42.466)

No, you're just naming that that happened.

Mike Miller (36:53.478)

I just want to say one other thing, if I may, about that is like, there are actually people, including parents, that do intentionally harm people. And I don't think like letting them off the hook for that. Like, I'm not talking, we're not talking about that stuff. We're talking about like, generally parents doing their best, et cetera. I just want to be clear, like some people like need to get the blame. We don't have a part in it. They've wronged us. Like, and you know, a lot of people go, forgiveness is the key. I come from the school of

Chuck (37:10.794)

Exactly.

Mike Miller (37:21.122)

maybe some things are unforgivable and it's up to you if you want to forgive them or not. I don't really have an agenda around that stuff. Like there are those people. like, know, we're talking about specific parameters as far as the blaming and not being useful sort of stuff. Cause I'm not telling people, you know, be a doormat to anybody either. Right.

Chuck (37:34.381)

Absolutely. Yeah, right.

Chuck (37:38.838)

Of course not, of course not. So now that said, Mike, we'll go back to my experience at Yatra. So we worked through some of the big T stuff with EMDR and wow, right? Like I can't even, I don't even know how many people I've said it to since, you know, in the seven months or eight months it's been since, if you can believe I've been here that long in Thailand. But where so much of this value came in was,

Now that I've identified a core belief, such as I'm not important, right? Where do we go from there? And how do we, you know, what's your approach? And I know your approach because I was lucky enough to experience it. if you could, you're having a hard time taking a compliment still. I saw I that there. So,

Mike Miller (38:29.972)

Part of me hates it. of me loves it. Part of me hates

Chuck (38:33.482)

I know, know. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So there we go with the internal family systems therapy part two, which there's another episode if you go to www .hway .com. Anyway, what's your approach on, on now that we've identified a core belief, how do we move forward from that? And how do we, you know, how do, how do you address that? Or as a therapist?

Mike Miller (38:51.106)

Yeah. Okay. So I mean, I know we weren't going to talk specifically about modalities, but now we're talking about the actual, do we treat this stuff? So the way that we actually identify core beliefs at Yatra is we use cognitive behavioral therapy, a tool that we use, then we use a technique called drilling down. So say something sort of innocuous happens like I text

Chuck (39:00.206)

Yep, yep.

Mike Miller (39:19.672)

Chris and Chris doesn't text me back. My internal dialogue is, you know, he doesn't, he doesn't care about me. And then why do I have that internal dialogue? I drill down and I go, well, if he doesn't care about me, if that's true, what does that mean about me? Well, I mean, it could be a very quick jump from there to like, I'm not important, right? That's where I come up with the core belief by using cognitive behavioral therapy tools. With that core belief, what we then do is we go, okay,

what memories do you have that support you having that core belief? Right? So if I have a thing of I'm not important, it could be like, I waited at school for my parents to pick me up, but you know, they got a flat tire and didn't pick me up. I maybe didn't know that, but they didn't show up. I thought that that day I felt I wasn't important or, know, we moved out of our neighborhood to another neighborhood and I didn't have a choice in where we moving to. I'm not important. You know,

And then we would use EMDR to target those memories to see if we can get some relief from some of that core belief. And part of it is going to be CBT stuff where you just keep disputing that core belief and looking for evidence to the contrary. actually use a thing sometimes where I get people like not being important that core belief. have a file in my head full of evidence that supports why I'm not important. Right.

And it'll be really ruthless that dialogue in my head. Well, I'm a loser and I failed at this and I messed this up and I did this and that blah, blah. And there's this huge file for like really robust file of all the reasons why I wouldn't be important. I get people sometimes to build a physical counter file. So it's like, well, Lisa sent you a text that said, Hey, I'm just thinking about you and you know, I hope you're okay. Like, well, clearly that would be evidence that I am important to someone. So I would like print out that text and put it in like a box or a binder or a folder or something.

And then any evidence I have that I am important. So when I can't access it mentally, I can access it physically if I'm struggling with that core belief. So it depends on different things. think what you were speaking to is like go into the CBT and the EMDR, but there's different sort of techniques that people could use. I think getting, like we've even done things like letter writing campaigns. Okay, so you give me like 10 or 20 people that were in your life before addiction or before you came to treatment and.

Chuck (41:21.977)

Yes.

Mike Miller (41:38.246)

we send them a letter that says like, you as you know, Chris is in treatment with us. you know, he's had some struggles with addiction, et cetera. could you please, if you're willing to, would you be willing to write a letter letting Chris know like, what he meant to you before his struggles with addiction? what it was like during his addiction and what, what it's like kind of now. And then you get these letters that are like, like the only people that are going to send them are going to be people that are going to be

there'll be evidence that you're important or that you're loved or you know it'll just dispute some of these core beliefs and so yeah I learned that through narrative therapy like to change the narrative right and that letter writing campaign is really cool the like just disputing it that's just I guess it would be a cbt tool too like I'm disputing that that belief but but yeah those are some of the things but EMDR is generally how we do

Chuck (42:11.)

course.

Chuck (42:32.6)

Right, right, right. Lisa, what do you got?

Lisa (42:39.986)

Yeah, same. I'm done. Check it out. See you.

Chuck (42:42.052)

You can't say same. You can't say same for fuck's sakes. Yes, yes.

Mike Miller (42:50.626)

No, wait, hold on. My imposter syndrome loves it when a psychiatrist validates what I just said. I just gotta say that out loud.

Lisa (42:51.198)

But it is. I

Chuck (43:02.884)

Let's touch on that. you go, right? That imposter syndrome, that's a funny thing that I've come across so much in the pocket. Of course myself, right? Like I'm sitting here with two highly educated individuals. have a grade nine education. What the fuck am I doing here? You know, what do I? And we've talked about that and I'm not fishing or whatever, right?

Lisa (43:06.622)

See, I'm doing therapy on mic at the same time as making my life easy. Same.

Chuck (43:32.368)

Lisa, you've admitted to it, Mike, you've admitted to it. Everybody, everybody goes through this, right? And that's a funny thing to me, the whole imposter syndrome, right? I mean, if you've been asked to be on a podcast about any particular subject, in my mind, it's rationally, that should dispel any sense of imposter syndrome, but...

Mike Miller (43:54.008)

That's not where the core beliefs live though. My core beliefs don't live in your mind, right? And that's what it is. It's like, if I have a core belief of I'm not good enough, then all that rational evidence that shows that someone would value my opinion enough to ask me to come on or whatever, like none of that matters. Like, because I will have other evidence about, yeah, but one time with this client, I said this thing and it just, really stepped in it and

Chuck (43:56.898)

Yeah, exactly, exactly, right? yeah, yeah.

Mike Miller (44:22.604)

damaged the relationship or I didn't get the outcome I wanted for the person or whatever it would be. And so, you know, or could just be like, this is me. I am a guy covered in tattoos who's a recovering addict. I'm just a junkie. I've been to jail. Like I don't have like a doctorate. don't, know, like, like whatever it is, like I can find different ways to like compare myself down to anybody. You know, and if

If I go and I get this degree in that degree, that'll always be like the next one I don't have, or there'll always be someone with more degrees or what, you know, like it's just, this is core belief stuff, right? So part of it is just, I think it's super common to most people to have

Chuck (44:58.456)

Right.

Chuck (45:08.366)

Yeah. Yeah. No kidding.

Lisa (45:09.088)

So I'll expand on my same.

Lisa (45:18.014)

But so I mean, when you ask the question, right, my mind immediately went to CBT, you know, around, because in CBT, we'll look at thoughts or beliefs, we'll look at, you know, we'll tie it together when you're doing true CBT around like how those thoughts and feelings, like how does that, how does that feel physically? How does that feel emotionally? And then you look at what's the evidence that this is true? And what's the evidence to challenge this, this thought or this core belief? So

my mind sort of immediately went to doing the CBT. And yeah, exactly right. You're looking at, as Mike said, and I've never thought about it that way, but it's true. We always have this huge catalog of evidence to support all of our negative thoughts. My laptop's gonna shut off. So you have to then actively explore the evidence that challenges this belief.

I tell people though that when you have a core belief, right, because I'm not working with kids, so I'm working with somebody who's, you anywhere from 20 years old to 70 years old. For a lot of people, these beliefs are very, very, very rooted and they're strong, right? So I will tell people, we don't expect this belief is not going to go away in a month of therapy. But the value is, and we talked about this pre -recording too,

is naming

bringing it to someone's awareness. Like I'll have people who it's like, we'll discover a core belief. And then I feel like they spend the next four weeks seeing me going, like, I do this. And now I realize I do that because I have this belief about myself. You know, and, but again, you can't change something you're not aware of. And so

Chuck (47:05.934)

Yep.

Lisa (47:12.146)

the fact that they'll be out in the world, not even in therapy session, they'll be out in the world living their life, doing their usual stuff, but suddenly something will happen and they have that await. That's because I don't think I'm worthy or that's because I don't think I'm lovable. And so then they're finding opportunity after opportunity to actively challenge that belief

revisit the evidence that they are worthy, they are lovable. And so it's it's practice. And I tell people sometimes, especially early on, you do need to put pen to paper or print out the text message or do something really tangible that you can put your hands on. Just to sort of try to give it strength until you start to believe it.

And I also, the other piece I would add in is like broader self -esteem work, right? Cause you can work on the core belief of I'm not lovable. But I think even more broadly is just building up your self -esteem beyond trying to convince you that you're lovable. It's just looking for ways that, you know, that people are good because the better we feel about ourselves, I think the more empowered we are to challenge negative core beliefs.

Chuck (48:36.9)

What a doubt.

Mike Miller (48:36.942)

If I may, just really briefly, I agree with all of that. And I think also one thing that we do is not only do we challenge it and sort of dispute the core belief, but then it's like, when I'm aware of it, then I can act differently. And it doesn't have as much power to make me do things. And the example that I was talking about pre -recording is that belief I have of like, I'm disposable. And

Chuck (48:40.302)

Go ahead, Mike. No, please do.

Mike Miller (49:04.162)

because of the abandonment stuff with my dad and everything. And then any relationship I was in, including that work relationship, if there's any sort of like rocking of the boat, I'm like, well, I guess that's over now. When I became aware of that, I had been clean for quite some time and I was still operating with this belief, not really knowing that I had it. And I would get into relationships because was yearning for connection and intimacy and all that. But then when I would get there,

if anything happened, I would get out of it. So I had all these like short sort of like intense relationships and I wouldn't know how to handle them. And then something would happen and I'd be like, gotta get out of this because they're gonna dump me or whatever would happen. When I became aware of that belief, I was dating a girl and we got in, like we had a disagreement about something, like it wasn't like some big blowout, we just had a disagreement. And in my head I went, well, there you go, that's over now. And I went, hold on, wait, that's just that belief telling me

you don't have to do anything about it. And then the next day I was with her again and everything was fine. Because in healthy relationships, you're allowed to disagree and it doesn't mean that someone's getting abandoned, right? So it really, then I'm doing more esteemable acts by showing up in relationships and not like abandoning myself or someone else. And then that can help to contribute to the building of self -esteem as I act differently once I'm aware of the belief that's fueling all of this

Chuck (50:20.996)

Watch your self -esteem, right? Yeah. 100%. That makes a lot of sense, right? And you know, we are a recovery podcast and Mike has something I mentioned to you multiple times. You get that self -esteem going, that is so good for your recovery. You can, know, things like, you know, well, we've discussed that at length. So one of the things, and we'll go back to that, for me, it's the feeling I'm not important thing.

One of the biggest thing I've taken away from my experience at Yatra, because I like I'm offset by 12 hours from pretty much everybody I know and love in the world. Right. It is not uncommon for me to take a week to talk to mom or, you know, a few days to really connect with anybody. And I found myself quite often going, hey, wait a minute, that's that core belief again, because like it's really easy for me to get wrapped up and we'll fuck words like, come on.

You know, like, why does it like, you know, and, but, having those tools that I picked up at Yacht -Ride has made such a difference in my life that now I can just kind of go on about my day and know that it's just a timing thing. It's of course, you know, right, you know, and that, that's been massive for me, massive for me, right. On top of everything else. So, yeah, listen, we're, getting close to the top of the hour here. we could go on for hours and as always, Michael have you back on soon. I'm sure. Right.

Mike Miller (51:47.022)

it's happy to be

Chuck (51:47.928)

at least if you've got anything else you want to throw in or Mike, for that matter, just before we move into the final segment, daily gratitude.

Mike Miller (51:56.718)

We were going to talk about, because we've talked about naming, we're not shaming and blaming. One of the things you wanted to talk about was, is it worth having that conversation with your parents if you realize that that might be where it's emanating from, right?

Lisa (51:57.44)

No. Yeah, go ahead.

Chuck (52:01.049)

You're good.

Chuck (52:08.548)

Oh, oh yeah. You know what? Let's add a few minutes. Absolutely. Yep. Please. Thank you for bringing that up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So just to introduce that idea. We had talked about pre -record. Is there any thing to be gained by me going back to mom and saying, Hey mom, this is why I have this core value. This thing that was said or done when I was 12 years old. And, the answer I think to that is not really,

If you want to explain that, Mike, you've got something ready to go. So let's have it.

Mike Miller (52:44.494)

Same. but.

Well, I think that because we're running on the assumption that, you know, if we use mom as an example, mom absolutely did the best job that she had, whatever she might've inadvertently done that helped install that core belief, because it wasn't any intentional sliding or anything, you know, like whatever happens, because we know that that's just a perception thing, wouldn't have been intentional. So going to her after she's done her best for all this

and say like, oh, mom, when I was 12, this thing happened. This is where I got this core belief, which hasn't served me well through my whole adulthood and everything. like, I would be amazed if a parent didn't get defensive about that, offended about it, like after all the stuff I've gone through with you and blah, blah, you know, like that would be a normal sort of reaction. Yeah, well, that have been through a lot of stuff, right? So I don't like.

Chuck (53:36.128)

especially like our parents, right? Yeah, right. It's know, no kidding.

Mike Miller (53:43.926)

I don't think that like, what need am I trying to get met by going and having that conversation? Right? Am I trying to, yeah, maybe like I want to be understood, but the thing is like, I always say, you know, you got to go to the right place for the right kind of support and stuff. Like you don't go to Kentucky fried chicken. If you want to steak, you got to get yourself to a steak house. And if I keep going to Kentucky fried chicken and asking for steak and just being pissed off about it, like they're going to be confused about why I keep going to the wrong place. And I'm going to be constantly like let down. I don't go to my mom.

Chuck (53:49.186)

And that's validation or something and yeah, yeah, right.

Mike Miller (54:14.072)

to get someone to understand my core belief stuff, I go to someone else who understands core belief stuff. It's not my mom's role to support me through that. And so if I want to be understood, doesn't have to be by the person, like that would be my thing. Cause I don't know that they would be in a place where they would be willing to go,

Chuck (54:32.772)

You'd be hard pressed to find a human being that would not be defensive and that not turn into a rather negative experience for everyone involved, right? Yeah, yeah, right, Of course not, yeah.

Mike Miller (54:35.33)

Yeah, I would be. Yeah. And it's not going to get your needs met at that point. I mean, that might vary based on, that's a very generalized thing, but I think, you know, I don't know what the benefit would be. What am I hoping to achieve? Is that achievable? Is that realistic? Am I going to walk away feeling not important once again, if I get defensive? Like, is that just going to reinforce the belief? And is it an unrealistic expectation? So my thought

Chuck (54:57.473)

Exactly.

Mike Miller (55:04.738)

I can get support around that stuff from my therapist. I can get it from my support group, my peers that kind of understand the struggles of what that's like, because they've gone through similar things and we've had those conversations. I wouldn't personally go and talk to my mom about it because I think she would perceive it as blame. She wouldn't perceive it as naming it. She would perceive it as blaming. And I've had that lots of times when we have clients coming to do trauma therapy. I've had a phone call with parents. So like, well, I'm sure they blame me for everything. And it's like, well, that's not what we're doing.

Lisa (55:25.427)

Thank

Mike Miller (55:34.828)

Right. But that's can be the perception. So then if you were to then go to them and be like, well, you know, this thing, they would probably perceive it that way. That's just my assumption. And I don't know what we'll get your needs

Chuck (55:46.488)

Fair enough, fair enough, right? Fair enough. Okay. All right. Yeah, same.

Mike Miller (55:49.314)

I wanna know what Lisa says about

Lisa (55:49.982)

Yeah, think, yeah, same. But I think the question of, I've

I've had this conversation many times too with, with patients and we will often talk about, like, I think people need to sit and explore why what what's driving the desire to go back to the person. I think a lot of times it's like they want that validation, they're seeking validation, they're seeking them to say, okay, like, you know, I did that they want an apology sometimes. But what I've said to people is unless

this person is themselves doing some really intensive therapeutic work. The likelihood, for one, I think it would need to be done in a mediated session would probably be the only way you might successfully pull this off. Like having mom, or we're picking on moms here, but having like, you know, the person that you feel wronged by at some point in your life together with you, you have the perpetrator, right?

Chuck (56:54.628)

perceived perpetrator.

Lisa (56:58.194)

Having them, having you and having a therapist in the room, I think would be your best shot at it.

Chuck (57:04.61)

And even that, right? Even that.

Mike Miller (57:06.274)

I would even go as far as to say the perpetrator, you know, know that we're sort of saying that tongue in cheek, but that, yeah, that, yeah, having that person with their therapist, you with your therapist, so it's not me and my therapist against you. Yeah. So, you know, that's, that isn't often a dynamic that's even possible because that means two people are in deep therapy, which would then make

Lisa (57:07.292)

Really hard.

Chuck (57:12.056)

Perceived perpetrator. That's why I'm saying it to God.

Chuck (57:19.672)

Yep, right. So we're all going to bring our lawyers to the table for this.

Lisa (57:20.114)

Yes, so they're not ganged up on.

Totally.

Chuck (57:30.079)

Just the idea that that's what it would take makes it something that why would you want to do it? Right? Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, yeah. horrible.

Mike Miller (57:33.004)

Yeah, well for it to be safe, I think.

Lisa (57:38.652)

Yeah, I think really the work comes down to, you know, I think it's, it's, can do your own work and then ultimately not need the validation of anybody, right? Through doing your own work, the goal would be to get to a place where you don't need someone to validate that they did that to you because you will know and you will proudly own the fact that someone did this to me and it really bloody sucked.

Chuck (57:43.192)

internal.

Lisa (58:03.964)

I do think one situation where maybe something does need to happen is if it's ongoing, like if somebody is continuing to treat you that way. But again, I would say in my experience, if I think about certain cases that come to mind, it's less about calling them out and it's more about setting a boundary. It becomes a thing of this continues, yeah, this continues to be done to me. So I'm going to have, I'm going to decide what boundary I need to put in place. So it's again,

Chuck (58:13.538)

Yes, even then.

Mike Miller (58:23.15)

trying to get yourself out of

Chuck (58:26.328)

Yeah.

Lisa (58:33.106)

We have the authority and the power within ourselves to feel validated, to set and assert boundaries. But I think it, yeah, I think the work can be done. It's not that you have to do it, it's that you can. You can do this and get to the place of peace without needing them to do it for

Chuck (58:56.58)

Absolutely, 100%, right? yeah. All right, my friends, that brings us to my favorite part of the show. That is the Daily Gratitudes, which are brought to us by, I'm trying to do this during record now, rather than having to insert a commercial, and oh, by Yatra, you're up. I just had to do it. Daily Gratitudes today are brought to you by the Yatra Trauma Center here in Krabi, Thailand, where I reside. They do weave while we've talked about who they are,

Lisa (59:18.022)

Yatra? Who's Yatra?

Chuck (59:26.148)

Mike, what do you got for some gratitude today?

Mike Miller (59:30.394)

such a broken record with stuff, but, you know, I'm grateful for, yeah, I'm grateful for, for, my wife really showing up and doing the stuff that she does. You know, she, she works with us. She runs a lot of the operational side of the center and, never, never ceases to amaze me. Like how much she can step up in difficult times and stressful times and, and, you

Chuck (59:38.488)

for a reason.

Mike Miller (01:00:00.138)

answer the bell and do all that stuff and she did that. And then I was also very grateful today that one of my staff members, one of the therapists that works for me just sent me a nice text to check in and just be like, hey, how are you doing? Blah, blah. And not to need to be said, but yesterday was a stressful day. And so just to have someone like check in and just see how I was doing because a lot of the time I'm the guy.

it's there for other people based on the role that I'm in. And I'm sure Lisa can relate to that. And I'm sure even in your role in the podcast, you get people coming to you for recovery stuff. Like that's just what happens. So for someone to recognize like, maybe like I might've needed a check -in was like a really, like I was really, I said, I'm really touched that you would do that. And I appreciate it. And then I went into my like, no, I'm fine though. you know.

Chuck (01:00:29.442)

Of course.

Chuck (01:00:48.068)

Can we just make this about you again? Can we just do that, please? And yeah, right. Yeah.

Mike Miller (01:00:51.862)

Yeah, yeah. And we're going away tomorrow to stay in this like super cool jungle sort of hideaway thing for a night. Yeah, and videos and pictures to follow. Drones packed, cameras packed and all that.

Chuck (01:01:04.91)

cool, cool.

Chuck (01:01:10.028)

Nice. I'll bet they are. I'll bet they are. There's actually a new spot I want to check out with you. I'm out in these days, Mike. was thinking about asking you to meet me there, you and true. Maybe that new elephant place on the down by and owning the restaurant on the corner there. Yeah. Yeah. You can overlook, you can watch the elephants as you're eating supper. Looks like a pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. I just, I I've heard about it a bunch of just today. I drove past it for the first time. So I'm pretty excited for that. But

Mike Miller (01:01:23.991)

Sure, whatever.

Mike Miller (01:01:29.901)

yeah, yeah,

Mike Miller (01:01:37.71)

It's ethical, we'll show

Chuck (01:01:40.26)

It seems like it is. It seems like it's an ethical one. Yeah. No, no. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. Lisa, what do you got?

Mike Miller (01:01:41.048)

Sorry. Yeah. Well, you just got to be careful. But yeah, if it's ethical, for sure.

Lisa (01:01:43.132)

Yeah, yeah, that matters.

Lisa (01:01:50.424)

I today I'm going to say that I'm grateful for the team of people that I work with at the hospital. It kind of yeah, it's in my mind right now because so I have a patient who's been in the hospital with me for over a year. Who's leaving us this week. And we had some stuff that we were trying to tee up and actually got a text message from my social worker.

Chuck (01:02:09.191)

wow.

Lisa (01:02:20.654)

way after work hours last night, that you know, he'd gotten an email we were waiting for trying to get everything teed up for this individual. And it's never lost on me how great the people that I work with are. But they're also above and beyond, right? They're not they're not there punching the clock. They, the group of them, the OT, the social worker, they go

above and beyond what we are expected to do for people and they actually care about the individual. you know, yeah. And so I, you know, I got that message yesterday evening and felt a lot of gratitude for him. And I'm just, yeah, I'm lucky I work with a group of people like

Chuck (01:03:13.124)

Awesome, I've got myself 21 months today, I guess it is. As we're recording, I looked at the date and went, oh shit, look at that, we're at 21 months. So it's actually not till tomorrow technically, but just because of the time difference, right? But it's the 21st here, so that makes it 21, 21 months. And what I've been thinking about actually is, of course, it's come up a bunch in this episode.

Mike Miller (01:03:22.318)

Beautiful.

Mike Miller (01:03:25.827)

Amazing.

Chuck (01:03:43.028)

is my time at Yatra and how much that really helped me, right? And the fact that that led to me living what is clearly my best life here in Thailand. so I'm grateful to you, Mike, for that. Very, very grateful. So I know I've said thank you a few times, but I am very. So there's that. I'm also grateful to every single person who continues to interact with us, be it on the social media.

whether you're liking or whether you're watching their podcast, listening to podcasts, talking to your friends about the podcast, whatever you're doing is working. We're going really fast. Every time you do these things, you're getting me a little bit closer to living my best life. My best life is to continue making humble living, spreading the message. And the message is this. If you're in active addiction right now, today could be the day, today could be the day that you start a lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call into detox, pray, go to meeting, go to church. I don't care. Do whatever it is you gotta do to get that journey started, because it is so much better than the alternative.

If you have a loved one who's suffering an addiction right now, if you just take one more minute out of your day and text that person, them know they are loved. Use the words.

Lisa (01:04:44.56)

You are love.

Mike Miller (01:04:45.07)

were loved.

Chuck (01:04:47.63)

That little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings him back. Boom.