Lisa shares about being the sister of someone with SUD, how that has shaped their family, some of the insight that has given her, and more. www.a2apodcast.com/276
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Yatra Trauma Centre
PSA Sponsor
AARC - Alberta Adolescent Recovery Centre
Daily Gratitude Sponsor FAR -
Families for Addiction Recovery
Chuck/Chris (00:02.08)
Hello everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds. Welcome to another episode of the Ash is Too Awesome podcast. I'm your host Chuck LaFlandre in Krabi, Thailand. Halfway around the world is my lovely co -host Dr. Lisa. How you doing today, Lisa?
Lisa (00:16.046)
good. I'm Yeah, no, it's I mean, we're always doing this on the weekends. And so you're always getting me at the better part of the week. But you know, this was like first week back to school first week back to not all of the extracurricular things have started up. But yeah, so it's, we're gonna get back into a routine.
Chuck/Chris (00:21.694)
you
Chuck/Chris (00:39.86)
is always a good thing, right? And hey, you know what? It's a good thing for the platform here too. Not gonna lie. We were talking about that last week off of, you know, pre -record or whatever, when everybody gets back to work, more people can pay attention to things like podcasts. So it's a good thing for us as well. So welcome back everyone. If you are getting back into your podcast listening routines and yeah, right. I learned that very early on that there's a summer lull, which makes sense, right? People just don't have the time. So yeah, yeah.
Lisa (00:41.378)
Yeah.
Lisa (00:54.005)
Exactly.
Lisa (01:03.02)
Yeah. I mean, we saw that even with my own mom, right? I mean, my mom is like this faithful listener. then, you know, but I think too, during the summer, right, people go on vacations, people have visitors. And so you're yeah, your your days are just, just different. So
Chuck/Chris (01:09.75)
Yes, she is.
Chuck/Chris (01:20.134)
barbecues on the weekends, all of that stuff, right? Yeah, Yeah, of course they are, of course they are, right?
Lisa (01:26.948)
It's going to be 31 degrees in Calgary this weekend.
Chuck/Chris (01:30.678)
Holy, holy, that's 80 for in American, right? So yeah, that's not so bad for September. They used to call that back in the day, an Indian summer, right? Before that was not a politically correct thing to say, but this show has never really been politically correct. So whatever, I'm not gonna start now. All right, yeah, yeah, back in the day.
Lisa (01:32.814)
So.
Lisa (01:36.322)
Yeah, it's definitely warm for this time of year.
Lisa (01:44.568)
Yeah.
Lisa (01:54.114)
Yeah. Yep. That's true. I remember that when I was a kid.
Chuck/Chris (02:01.438)
Yeah, yeah. You were a kid in Calgary?
Lisa (02:05.229)
Now I remember that term.
Chuck/Chris (02:07.491)
okay. See, that's a Calgary thing because of the Chinooks and whatever, right? But I thought it was. I didn't realize it was a nation. Like the people would use that term. I mean, the I word people used, of course, right? But yeah.
Lisa (02:11.776)
yeah, no. You know, I'm from the East Coast and yeah, no, but the summer thing like I remember that term when I was a kid.
Chuck/Chris (02:22.828)
really? OK, OK. I just assumed it was a Chinook thing. So there you go. The center of the universe kind of thinking there. guess that was right. Anyway, listen, we after last weekend's episode and for anybody that's that's listening now, the episode that aired last weekend with Tony from Ark, with Tony and Kiera from Ark, should say, go back and listen to it if you haven't had a chance to. Absolutely wonderful.
Lisa (02:25.666)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Chuck/Chris (02:52.256)
conversation with a couple of wonderful people. It's so rare that we get a father on, right? And Tony, I said to Kiara Post Record that like, I could not have picked a better father if I tried from the art program to come on and speak about his experience, right? The kind of empathy and the, my, right?
Lisa (02:57.614)
Yeah.
Lisa (03:04.75)
Yeah.
Lisa (03:09.4)
Yeah, I know I thought he was great too. And it's true, like we don't get many dads, which is something I always find interesting because I think I've said it before, but in my family, it would be the opposite. know, like if one of my parents were going to speak, it would be my dad, even if they were both present. He's the one who would be more vocal. But in general, you know, we get a lot more moms.
Chuck/Chris (03:23.85)
Yeah.
Lisa (03:39.148)
Right? And I think it sort of speaks to the fact that I think men tend to be more stereotyping, but I think they tend to be more proud, more stoic, more private. I think they feel more shame, actually. You know, because I think men have this idea in their heads that they're supposed to be the protector of the family and the, you know, so when something is
Chuck/Chris (03:40.704)
Yes.
Chuck/Chris (03:55.988)
I would think so. I would think so. Yeah.
Lisa (04:07.394)
not working or broken or hurt and they can't fix it. I think there's a lot of shame that comes with that. But yeah, Tony was great.
Chuck/Chris (04:19.67)
So this is an interesting question. And I do want to talk about your journey again. And for anybody, we went into great detail about Lisa's story in episode 101 when we were still doing this audio. If you're looking for a great episode and you want some great detail, I don't think we're going to go into that kind of detail today, Lisa, but.
benefit of hindsight, do you think your entire family would have committed to the art program back then? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lisa (04:41.941)
yeah. yeah. Yeah!
Yeah, like, you know, the, the program that my brother attended, I'm trying to think how many years ago it would have been, it's like 20 years ago, I guess. They involved families because they, their focus was adolescents and young adults. So I think they went sort of into mid 20s. Yeah, yeah. But it was different in that they were physically
Chuck/Chris (05:07.926)
Well, same as arcs focus really, right? Yeah, yeah, similar.
Lisa (05:17.838)
quite isolated. So nobody lived around there, you know, like you couldn't go in a few evenings a week for four hours, because it took you hours to get there. But they did include family, like they would do sessions with family members. And then when there were like passes or outings on weekends, which similar to Arc involved sending, you know,
Chuck/Chris (05:28.394)
Yeah.
Lisa (05:45.92)
a kid would go home to their family for a day, it worked up, it started out as hours, then it would be day, then it would be overnight, then it would be weekend. So they worked up and the kid would always go with up here, who was also in the program, but who was further along in the program. So there were some similarities there. yeah, like, and it, I appreciate that, you know, we've heard Art talk about
Chuck/Chris (05:59.508)
Okay.
Lisa (06:12.104)
their awareness that it is there what they're looking for from the family is a big commitment. But no, we we absolutely would have been there. Yeah, and it actually kills because arc existed. Like, I mean, we would have come to Calgary and done arc. That's where we were. Like we would have, you know,
Chuck/Chris (06:18.317)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're kidding me.
Chuck/Chris (06:26.932)
I suppose it did. Yeah. Right. yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and we do know some other stories where people have relocated to Calgary either temporarily or permanently to to attend the program with their kids. Right. So I think that's speaks a lot to what they have to offer. People are willing to do that. Let's go back a bit, though, Lisa, into your story. Right. I've talked about it.
quite a bit with people and just in tidbits. But what does that look like for you? If you wanna give us the, I don't even wanna say the Coles, no, just tell us about it and we'll go from there.
Lisa (07:08.054)
Yeah. I know it's funny because I feel like having done this podcast now for like a year and a half and like talking about various details of it, like it almost makes it harder to know where to start the story and where to take it and what to share. I remember the first time Chris, you and I got on the phone, right? I think you had recorded with Devin that day or maybe the day before and we got, yeah. And, I think we got on the phone.
Chuck/Chris (07:23.656)
Fair enough.
right. Yes, I had. Yep. I had released it, so yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Yeah.
Lisa (07:37.278)
And I don't know if you got a word in, because I was like, here's my story. I was just like.
Chuck/Chris (07:41.51)
True story, yeah.
Lisa (07:45.26)
you know, because I think I remember you were like, Hey, wait, wait, wait, like, you know, let's, again, killing content, right. But yeah, so I grew up in Labrador, and with like a pretty typical. I don't know if it's typical, because maybe the typical families, like I, I had a good childhood, like I grew up in a little town with
Chuck/Chris (07:48.624)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Chuck/Chris (08:07.542)
stereotypical.
Lisa (08:15.2)
a family, fam, like grandma up the road, uncles up the road, cousins down the street, like, you know what I mean? Like, a good sense of community, a good family, a loving family, a supportive family, I think a pretty healthy family. And certainly, if you go up to my grandparents, there was severe alcoholism, like really, really severe alcoholism. But in
Chuck/Chris (08:22.25)
Yeah.
Lisa (08:45.322)
my immediate family, you know, there wasn't like my parents might have wine at Christmas dinner or something, but like my dad didn't sit on the couch and drink beer and watch sports like, and not that there's anything wrong with that for people who, you know, don't have a problem with alcohol, but there like, it just wasn't in my house. And I think again, because it was on my mom's side of the family that there had been a lot of alcoholism. She was very like, she didn't want any of that stuff around our house. And so it really wasn't there.
And, you know, I was involved in sports. My brother was involved in sports. And it was through sports, which people think that's how we keep our kids safe, right? Keep them busy, put them activities, put them in sports. And, you know, I have a brother who was a really good hockey player. And, you know, and again, my parents were involved in it. It wasn't like a thing to stick them in so that they didn't have to
Chuck/Chris (09:27.765)
Yeah.
Lisa (09:41.208)
be with them or deal with them or, you know, it was just he was good at it. He loved it. And it was almost again, like a family thing. Like I haven't remembered being in in university. And he would have hockey tournaments and I'd be like, okay, well, you know, I, lived on my own when I went to university, but I would sometimes go and join them for weekends and random towns and we'd stay in the hotel and, you know, because families all become friends. And so he
Chuck/Chris (10:03.819)
Yeah.
Of course, of course.
Lisa (10:09.25)
you know, he was this good athlete, but that's where drugs first came and came onto the scene, you know. And I know buddies of his have said that, you know, from really early days, like, you know, there'd be drugs at a party and people would do them and walk away. But then he'd be, you know, if if it hadn't run out, you know, he would continue to use when most people would go home or fall asleep or whatever.
Chuck/Chris (10:15.21)
Mm
Chuck/Chris (10:37.056)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa (10:39.79)
But I think, yeah, so through high school, know, my parents knew he was smoking weed. I don't know if they knew early on that there were other things, but kind of like what Tony talked about last week, you know, it's like, how heavy do you put down the hammer? You know, you don't wanna, you wanna try to keep lines of communication open. You don't want to over pathologize everything. You don't wanna freak out, you know, over little things. And so I think,
you know, they knew he was smoking weed. And I think that they just kind of thought, well, you know, he's a teen and they normalized it. Yep. And I, we know now that it was in high school that he had, like I said, started sort of experimenting with, you know, party drugs, you know, and the specifics, I don't know all the fine details, but you know, I think it was like things like ecstasy or cocaine or whatever.
Chuck/Chris (11:14.762)
Yeah, it's a fair assumption though, really, right? Yeah.
Lisa (11:37.57)
And I think he started to realize that maybe that experience for him was different than other people. And so when he finished high school, my parents moved towns and he made the decision to go with them. And I do believe part of that was him trying to get away and sort of fresh start and that kind of thing. And he did that for a while, but I think
you know, ended up sort of not in an acute active addiction kind of way. But I think I do think genetically, I think his brain was was wired that he was going to have these challenges. And you'll hear that story a lot, right? When you talk to someone who's in hardcore, deep, active, serious addiction, that there were a number of years where it was a little bit more casual, where they could kind of turn it off, but then they'd go back to it. Right? Yeah.
Chuck/Chris (12:33.11)
I'm one of them, right? Absolutely, Drugs weren't even a big problem for me until 18, 19 years old, right? And I'd been on my own from 14. there was some real formative years there where it could have very much been. And it was just like, you got the chance, you smoke a joint or have a beer or whatever, but they certainly didn't run my life until they did. You know? Yeah, yeah.
Lisa (12:35.577)
Yeah.
Lisa (12:55.712)
Exactly right. And you know, and I think for him, so he you know, he did that, he was going to college, like, you know, doing a lot of the right things and doing well in a lot of ways. But I think he actually went to a dealer to get coke. And the dealer said, like, I'm all out, but I've got some crack.
Chuck/Chris (13:18.474)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa (13:19.554)
And, you know, he's told me that it was just a totally different ball game, you know, and, that's sort of the first time that there was sort of a crash and burn that came about. And and I don't actually know, I couldn't tell you if, you know, that first use to when we found out whether that was like three months, six months, one year, but it was in that kind of range. Right. And then.
Chuck/Chris (13:24.907)
yeah. Yep. Yep.
Lisa (13:47.64)
we knew something was up. We knew he wasn't doing well. He was, you know, isolating. He was, his sleep was off, you know, like he had gone from being somebody who was like, like, it's very rigid and very perfectionistic. And typically the kind of person who was like up in the morning, early for work. And suddenly it's like, you know, skipping, like, cause he was in college at the time. So like not going or, you know, up late at night.
couldn't get up in the morning. And then he actually ended up telling us and it was like, I remember details of that night, because again, you're going back a long time ago, but he was quite upset. Like he was emotional, he was upset, there was something wrong. And we couldn't get him to tell us what it was. Like I remember I went and spoke to him, my dad went and spoke to him, like we're all just like, you know, just tell us like, what is it? And he, I think he just was so ashamed of himself.
that like trying to say it out loud was really hard. And it was actually like, I remember saying to him, like, is it fixable? Because like my head started to go like, does he have HIV? you know, like, what is this? You know, is this something we can deal with? Is it something we can fix? And he said, yes, which in hindsight, like in the moment, like it didn't mean a lot to me, but I'm like, okay, so he believed he could get well.
Chuck/Chris (15:14.068)
Yeah.
Lisa (15:14.926)
But know, he had debated, he'd done his own research. He knew a program he wanted to go to. And he actually, yeah, which is like, again, for somebody who, I think he was less naive, obviously, than the rest of us at that point. But it's not like he had spent years living in heart addiction, you know, but I think he realized he couldn't stop. And so, you know, I mean,
Chuck/Chris (15:22.272)
Wow.
Lisa (15:43.064)
when you realize that you can't control your use, you know, doesn't take a lot of research to realize what definition that kind of equates to, right? Whether you call it addiction or substance use disorder or whatever you want to call it. And but yeah, he had found a program and he said like he had considered literally writing us a note and just going on like just leaving and saying we wake up to a note saying I'm gone to this treatment center.
Chuck/Chris (15:54.698)
Yeah.
Lisa (16:13.604)
You know, we talked about though, that of course at the time you grew up in Canada where when you need help, you get help, you go to the doctor, you know, at 19, 20 years old, whatever he was at the time, you don't realize that, you mean there's certain help I need in this country that I have to pay how much money to get? Right? Because his program he went to was a private program, like it was not free. And we actually later found out that
Chuck/Chris (16:31.412)
Yeah, yeah, right.
Lisa (16:42.02)
you could get provincial funding to go. But there was about 100 steps you had to jump through to get that approval. And they had this like, so I lived in Nova Scotia at the time. And the Nova Scotia government's response to us as a family initially, because we ended up paying, we're like, we're just going to take them. And then we'll figure out the money later. When we did that, of course, the first response we got from them was
you need approval before you go. So if you go without approval, even if we go back and do an assessment and realize it was the appropriate thing to do, too bad.
Chuck/Chris (17:13.291)
Yeah.
Chuck/Chris (17:23.062)
It's just crazy. There's this whole gap in our system. And we talked about this a couple of weeks ago with Ange too about, you know, needing help and getting help and the things that have to happen in between the time, the money, the hoops, all of that, right? And of course you having, you your lived experience as a loved one and your professional experience as a psychiatrist, me with my lived experience and of course.
Lisa (17:40.964)
Totally.
Chuck/Chris (17:51.668)
now this platform and talking to so many people. Well, the iron's hot, right? This isn't something like when somebody's got that lucidity, right? It's like now, it's not when we're done jumping through hoops. It's not when we come up with the money. It's not, you know.
Lisa (18:07.972)
And I think that the that urgency became really clear to us. And again, I don't know how aware my mom and dad would have been about what we were sort of up against. I certainly had no idea. Like, like I remember kind of being like, okay, so this is like once he had told us this is he's doing, he realized that he needs to stop and he needs some help. So he's and he's willing to go get help. So we'll send him to go get help and then done.
Chuck/Chris (18:36.65)
you
Lisa (18:37.282)
I literally thought that. Like now when I think about it, I'm like, what? But I'm like, if I thought that there are other people in the world who still think that right now that that's what this takes.
Chuck/Chris (18:48.95)
Right? Well, then Tony spoke to her last week when he said, right, I thought, okay, we've shipped him off to treatment. He's gonna be okay now. And if you don't know, you don't know, right? And yeah, I can totally see that. So, yeah.
Lisa (18:49.58)
you know, and of course.
Lisa (18:55.928)
Yeah. Yeah. If only.
Lisa (19:04.248)
And I think like the reality kind of hit for me when, you know, I think the next day, I think my dad was like, well, we're going to help. we, you know, I think him and like, called this program to get the information to find out about it. And it was like, okay, like you have to have, you have to medically detox before you go there, which is true of a lot of programs, right? If they don't have physicians on site, then you have to do that as a prerequisite because again,
certain substances, withdrawals can be medically dangerous. And so they need to know that you're through that dangerous or that potentially dangerous phase. And but so again, it's like, okay, well, then we found the detox all good, take them to the detox. I remember going home and being like, like, you know, it'd been a few rough days hadn't slept that well, like now we can all take a breath. And of course, the next morning, find out that the dealer picked him up at the door.
Lisa (20:03.94)
And that moment for me was just like...
Chuck/Chris (20:07.759)
I shouldn't laugh, whatever, right? That's where we're at. You kind of have to. The naivete of that. Right? Yeah. Yeah. All right.
Lisa (20:10.904)
But you kind of have to, right? I feel like now it is like I'm with you. Yeah. But it was, yeah, it was those days of sort of watching that stuff unfold and realizing that even if there's a desire to stop, even if there is awareness you need to stop, even if there's, you know, a desire and access to help, some people don't have.
a family that can say, we'll send you to that program next week. Let's just do four days of detox first. So it's like even having all of those things, which makes you one of the lucky ones.
it, you know, there's, it's, it's still so hard. And again, for me, like, I remember being like, almost like watching it at times from like a bird's eye view, and just being like, what is happening? Like, like, but you know what I mean? Like, I couldn't, I couldn't get it. And
Chuck/Chris (21:17.27)
I'm kidding.
Lisa (21:22.532)
You know, and I think I told you this, but like he had gone to detox 24 hours later, laughed. And so it took, you know, my dad, me, my uncle, friends, all trying to figure out where he had gone, tracking him down. And then also what came up was this realization that because he would always say, well, I'm at these buddies houses. So then when we were looking for him, we reached out to these people.
And then found out that, like, cause I was kind of annoyed, which of course again is ignorance too, cause it's not like somebody else's fault, but I was like pissed off at these guys. Like, you know, like are you guys all doing this? And why didn't you tell us this was happening and whatever, whatever. And they said like, but we, like he, we would ask him to come over and he'd say that he was busy with other things. And then he'd be telling us that he was thin. So he was telling everybody he was somewhere else.
Chuck/Chris (22:17.578)
Sounds pretty typical of... Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Lisa (22:20.004)
Right? And ultimately just isolating. But then when he, when we finally did find him, and it took, I remember already, and that was like, one day of formal, you know, trying in a formal setting to do something about this and realizing in that first 24 hours how hard it was, hence leaving. I could already see
this fear and hopelessness that I can't do this.
you know, like, because I remember before he went to detox the first time, you know, he would be pretty open about like, okay, so like, these are the steps, and this is what we need to do. And, you know, by I remember sitting at that friend's house, because he ended up showing up at a buddy's place. And I remember sitting there talking to him, it's like, you've got to go back, like, you know, like, we need to take you back. And there was already a shift. And I think it came from
I went and I couldn't stay.
Chuck/Chris (23:29.235)
And the shame of that. All of that. There's so much happening in a mind that's so obsessed with what's this. Yeah, that's a complicated thing.
Lisa (23:32.088)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa (23:38.806)
And it's interesting because for you, right, like having been in his shoes, you know, your your thought maybe not to put words in your mouth, but it's like the first thing you just said now was shame. For me as a family member, I get now how much shame there is. But in that moment, what I saw wasn't shame, it was like terrified fear.
Chuck/Chris (23:50.187)
Yeah.
Chuck/Chris (24:02.038)
Of course, yeah.
Lisa (24:03.512)
Like I just could see fear, right? And so he went back and then this guy that I was dating, we sat outside detox for the next five days. It was just like, you know, and like my parents also, you know, and they would come and drop off food or, you know, you got to take a coffee or a toilet break.
Chuck/Chris (24:15.018)
Hehehe.
Lisa (24:32.046)
But, you and I remember talking to him on the phone and he, like, he was terrified. I will never forget that. Like, there was this, he asked me once to promise him that he would be okay.
Lisa (24:47.416)
You know, and like again, being someone who in that moment didn't understand this at all, I just remember thinking like, what? Like you're in a hospital.
of course you're going to be okay. But that's where it's like, and we were lucky because I get that for some families, their experience with their loved one in active addiction is violence, aggression, hatred, anger, and we didn't see that. And the thing again is that if someone is coming at you with aggression and anger and hostility,
Chuck/Chris (25:19.574)
theft, all those things.
Lisa (25:31.34)
it's harder to feel compassion for that person, right? Because you're in defense mode or you're, you're afraid of them or whatever. And we've never, ever, ever. And so we are lucky that way. And if somebody is in a hostile, angry, aggressive state, you're not going to see their vulnerability. And vulnerability elicits compassion. But for us, you know, we didn't have that hostility side.
Chuck/Chris (25:34.55)
Yeah.
Lisa (26:00.3)
And we were like, I remember seeing the fear. And that was what for me started this thing of people telling me this is a choice. It's like he wanted nothing but to be not in that situation. And he was terrified. And I believe felt unable to stop despite wanting to.
You know, so again, it's like he was not choosing to be where he was. You know, he did not want to be in that situation. He couldn't see the way out. He already, so early in this battle, I could see the fear that he wasn't strong enough or wasn't capable to get out of it.
And again, if you see that, you know. And that's the hard thing to explain to people who haven't seen it. But when you see that...
I knew in that moment that he did not want to be there and he was not choosing this.
Chuck/Chris (27:14.954)
Yeah.
Lisa (27:16.076)
And it's a hard thing to communicate to people who haven't seen it.
Chuck/Chris (27:23.219)
It is such a hard thing. You my battles online and just in the comments, we've talked at length about that too, right? And it's, I think about it, it's funny because it's one of the things I think about a lot when I drive, like when I'm driving around on my scooter here in Thailand, is how to convince people of that. And it's like...
You can't, you you said it there, right? Unless somebody has seen it in real life and not.
Lisa (27:43.981)
You and me both.
Chuck/Chris (27:49.276)
not the anger and the violence and the theft and the lying, but like actually seen like you're talking about, that fear and that desperation and that, like those real raw, the vulnerability side of it, know, seeing only the anger, seeing only all that crazy negative behavior only reinforces, you know, some of the ill will that's spread to those people that have SED, right? know?
Lisa (28:15.032)
Yeah, yeah, totally.
Chuck/Chris (28:20.355)
Justifiably is not the right word. Understandably, so is a better word for that. You can understand how somebody doesn't want to, is not interested in a conversation about how sick that person is. They just got their nose broken or their jewelry stolen or their, right? There's a lot of anger there. There's a lot of anger and I can understand that, right? So.
Lisa (28:40.994)
do too, with the exception that I feel like I also see other conditions where, for example, like if you take a form of dementia called frontotemporal dementia, okay, it happens in younger people. So it's not, you know, Alzheimer's, right? Everyone thinks of dementia as Alzheimer's. Alzheimer's is one form of dementia. Alzheimer's tends to happen in old people. They get forgetful. They don't remember things.
Chuck/Chris (28:55.669)
Okay.
Lisa (29:09.966)
frontotemporal dementia happens much younger. So like cases I've seen, oftentimes they're in their 50s, early 60s. And the first presentation of it is usually a personality change. So it's not a memory thing, but they'll start to their personality will be different, they might become disinhibited, kind of inappropriate, more agitated. And when those people get a diagnosis of frontotemporal dementia,
Chuck/Chris (29:23.819)
Okay.
Lisa (29:38.432)
Everybody's so quick to forgive.
Chuck/Chris (29:41.792)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa (29:42.638)
for the fact that they've been acting kind of like an asshole or they've been saying things that are at a character inappropriate. And so on one hand, I get it, but I still think that the difference in if you're told you have frontotemporal dementia versus you're told that your loved one is suffering with substance use disorder is the stigma piece. There's no stigma against frontotemporal dementia.
you know, it's like, like they have this brain disease, and, you know, it's just like, they're sick, and that's why they did those things. And so we are going to forgive them. And it's just like, you know, forgiveness granted kind of deal. At the end of the day, addiction still, there are still so many people who believe that if you have an addiction, you're bad, it's your fault, it's your choice. And so even though we say that they did that because they're suffering with this
condition, this disease, this disorder, call it what you want. People still struggle to, to go to a place of forgiveness and compassion, because there's still that deep -rooted, brewing question of, Is this within their control? Is this their choice? Is this their fault? Is this because they're inherently bad? You know?
Chuck/Chris (31:02.784)
Generations of that, literally generations of that stigma, Which I try to give human race more credit than just being bad or shitty, right? Maybe sometimes in a naive way, but I like to think that even that wasn't born in a bad place, it was born out of ignorance, the not knowing kind, not the asshole kind. And it just kind of, for generations that was the case, right? Like when did...
Lisa (31:07.406)
Yeah, exactly.
Chuck/Chris (31:32.374)
you could certainly answer this. When did brain imaging become a commonly used thing? Say, when's the first time somebody used a brain imaging to diagnose somebody with SUD? When's the first time that happened? Or to look at the symptoms? You must have the decade down, right? Sometime, that's a funny thing, right? So pretty recently, right? Like brain imaging hasn't even been around for more than 30 years, I'm thinking, right? 70s, okay, so about 30 years, right? When brain...
Lisa (31:41.496)
I don't actually know the answer to that.
Lisa (31:46.114)
I don't actually. I know.
Lisa (31:55.854)
70s ish would be, you know, when you might that that's MRIs. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Chuck/Chris (32:02.09)
But when did they start looking at addicts? And then the high definition type of brain imaging it takes to pick up on something specific like that. So very, very recent. I see you're Googling your ass off over there.
Lisa (32:11.703)
Exactly.
Yeah, 60s, 70s, like I'm just looking up like when you you ask a radiologist they'd tell you who did it and when they did it and what the doctor's name was who invented it or whatever but yeah it's like yeah it looks like 60s were CTs MRIs in the 70s.
Chuck/Chris (32:23.518)
Yeah,
Chuck/Chris (32:30.378)
And they wouldn't even looked at somebody with SUD as they wouldn't even have. Nobody would even have thought to say, I wonder if right. Like that would have happened. I'm guessing here, but 80s, 70s, 80s at best. Right. So you're talking generations of of this stigma building up around ignorance and then and because of the behaviors associated with it, it's just so easy to get angry. It's just so easy. And as you just you discussed in the last episode.
Lisa (32:33.166)
No.
Lisa (32:42.274)
Yeah. Yeah.
Chuck/Chris (32:58.71)
It's a lot easier to be angry than scared or worried or compassionate.
Lisa (33:02.414)
Totally. And the thing is that within psychiatry, there are, you can also diagnose people with personality disorders, right? And again, we all have a personality. We all have lots of traits of various personalities. We're not all personality disordered, okay? Like I start talking to people and they're like, are you gonna diagnose me? It's like, no, like, diagnose myself while I'm at it if you want. But it's like, we've all got a personality. We all have traits, it's fine.
Chuck/Chris (33:21.726)
Yeah.
Lisa (33:31.574)
And really off topic, but the reason as a psychiatrist that I try to figure out someone's personality is not because I want to like come up with another label or put a sticker on their forehead, but different personalities respond to different therapeutic modalities and interventions. So we are doing people a disservice.
if we don't identify what their personality style is. Like I've had patients who I've said, you know, I think what you need isn't medication, it's therapy. And they'll say, I've done 10 years of therapy, hasn't done anything for me. And then when we look at it, it's like, but you've done 10 years of this therapy when you really need 10 years of that therapy. And then you're just going, how much money did you spend on your 10 years of therapy? You know? So it's something that
you know, we do, and I think we should do it for that reason. But the point I wanted to make is that like, even within the diagnostic manual, when someone's in active addiction, you know, you can't, you cannot give them these diagnoses. And there's good reason for that. Because if you take someone in active addiction, especially
If their addiction is severe to the point that it's caused functional impairment in their life in terms of relationships and employment and housing, then you can bet your ass that these people are engaging in activities and behaviors to survive.
And so the number of times that I have had patients where when I read through their historical chart, know, antisocial personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, and then through time working with some of these people where they're off drugs, you know, they're off their substances, they're stabilized, they're housed, they're fed, they're warm, they're safe.
Chuck/Chris (35:36.192)
There are none of these things that.
Lisa (35:37.336)
there are none of these things. You know, so unfortunately, you know, I think that the life of addiction often comes with a lot of really shitty behaviors and
Chuck/Chris (35:51.412)
And it does, without a doubt.
Lisa (35:53.346)
You know, and families get angry and frustrated and sometimes are victim to this. You know, again, we were some of the lucky ones that way, but you hear about people who, yeah, their kids are selling their jewelry and, you know, busting in their front doors. And so it can be hard for people. Well, you you just sold my wedding band and you, you know, broke into the house and damaged the home.
and then you're asking them to have compassion for this individual. And so it's tough.
Chuck/Chris (36:26.486)
tough. It's It is right. Unfortunately, it's just the way it is. Okay, so back to back to Lisa story here. Your brother is now at this point in the journey. In detox scared. legitimately scared, fearful of what's happening to him, what what's going to happen with him.
Lisa (36:33.731)
Yeah.
Lisa (36:47.62)
Hmm.
Chuck/Chris (36:56.79)
Where does it go from there?
Lisa (36:58.52)
Yeah, so...
You know, he went to treatment after that. And I always joke, I don't know if he would find it funny. But I remember when we picked him up and it was like, I just you know, I owe someone money. Like, I just, you know, just want to drop off the money. And we're like, man, like, we're like, we are out of here. But yeah, he went
Chuck/Chris (37:23.039)
Yeah. Yeah. Good thing too, because that was that guarantee. That's what that was. Right. So, okay. I'll fast forward a bit on you here. Did he ever cop to that? Did he ever admit to? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that's he didn't know anybody money. was. Yeah. Well, you probably owe people money because that's the life of somebody who's in addiction. Right. But yeah.
Lisa (37:31.928)
Yep. Yep. yeah.
he probably did owe somebody money, but it was like, well, just pay them the money and get a little bit of something, something just, you know, it's always just one last time, right? One last time. But yeah, so he went to treatment and he, you know, he, he stayed, he did program, it was a good program. And I still I've said this last week, I think, but I didn't say when, but I think it was the first time he was in treatment that I remember.
Chuck/Chris (37:43.486)
Yeah, yeah, of course, right? Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa (38:06.072)
getting a message or a call or a text, I don't remember, but that he was sitting outside, having coffee, watching the sun come up, and just felt peaceful. And that has, from that day, epitomized my wish for him and my wish for everybody suffering with addiction. You know, it's like you start to realize real quick that, you know,
You got people out there saying, well, I want my kid to, I don't know, be a lawyer, I want my kid to live in a mansion, I want my kid to travel the world. And it's like, you know what, like all great. But honestly, if we get through life, and we can enjoy a cup of coffee and watch the sunrise and feel peace.
Chuck/Chris (38:58.698)
Yeah, right, right, yeah.
Lisa (39:00.714)
Is there really anything that matters more?
Chuck/Chris (39:04.854)
There's not, there's not. And that's something that...
Chuck/Chris (39:10.83)
I guess it comes with real recovery, Is understanding that. at least for somebody who suffered an addiction, for everybody, I think it's important to at some point in your life to come to that. And unfortunately, many people don't. But I can tell you for myself, once you've had everything taken from you, once you've had everything and then you've had everything taken from you or done whatever with everything, once you've gone from everything to nothing and then
you come back from that, at some point it's just like, I get what's important and what's not, right? So for me,
Lisa (39:43.684)
And it's a gift, I mean, a very expensive gift. The price you pay to have that realization in your life is devastating.
Chuck/Chris (39:54.462)
Absolutely. At least when it comes to addiction, right? it absolutely, I admire people that come to it in softer ways, most certainly, right? But like what I have gone through personally to get to a point where I'm happy if I'm not worried about paying my rent, right? Like really, I was thinking about that the other day. It's like, okay, I'm finally in a place, know, I'm in Thailand, so it's much cheaper here, where I have to like save up if I want a new piece of equipment for the podcast, but.
I'm not worried about paying my rent next month. And like, the kind of peace that comes with that is just like, I could literally live the rest of my life on the amount of money I make right now. Right? And of course, at some point, you know, that's not feasible. I have to retire or whatever. That's another problem for down the road. But like, as far as material goods go and the lifestyle goes, I live a very simple, humble life and I could literally spend the rest of my life at this and be absolutely happy at this level.
of just not having to worry about the basics and know that I got my dog and I can go for a ride and that's okay. So that's my cup of coffee watching the sunrise. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lisa (41:00.356)
Yeah. And not being a slave to this disease, right? Like there's the contentment that you realize that having a roof over your head, a dog who's pumped to see you, a beach that you can go walk on, like simple pleasures, but you only get to experience those because you have gotten yourself.
Chuck/Chris (41:25.43)
Absolutely.
Lisa (41:25.654)
out of being a slave to the disease of addiction. Like to me, that's what I see when I see someone in active addiction is I will literally look at patients and try to imagine like what's in there because I have this, I feel like, you know, they're trapped in there. They're not possessed in a religious sense, okay? But it's just like overtaken, you know?
Chuck/Chris (41:29.174)
with 100%.
Chuck/Chris (41:51.782)
Some would argue, right? But yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Well, I think about the cycle that I was in. So I would get up in the morning, be absolutely dead broke. I would wait for my phone to ring. Somebody wants some dope. And that would start my day. By the end of the day, I might have a thousand dollars in my hand. I would wake up broke. And I would wait for my phone to ring. And that's hell. Right. So other people have different hustles to feed their habits. Right.
Lisa (42:18.276)
There's no peace in that.
Chuck/Chris (42:21.64)
And whatever, and do things arguably worse, though I don't even like gauging things morality anymore, but what we do to feed our habits. mean, a lot of us that that we're dealers like to kind of ride on that and say, well, at least I wasn't. And at least I wasn't. But at end of the day, you're feeding that shit. So you're as bad, maybe worse. But that cycle of every day, I told you about my friend in Regina just before I left. It's a get up.
hustle up enough money to place an ad online so she can go prostitute herself just to not be sick so she can start her day to get her hustle on and live in that cycle. That is hell, right? That is slavery at its rawest form is what that is, right? And it's a horrible, horrible way to live.
Lisa (43:11.052)
And you know, I remember like many, many, many years later into this story, like I remember when my brother was unwell at one point and I had gone to spend a day with him. I remember as he was talking to me exactly that, it was like he was so in the weeds of getting through a day.
that my outsider high view of just walk away. It's like he wasn't even on his brain that he could just walk away from this. Because he was in this state of fight or flight all the time. And I actually said that to him. I was like, you need to remember. was like, like, I can sit here and listen to this all day. But you don't need to
Do this.
We can walk, just walk away. But I could see in that moment again that, and I think the gift of having a loved one who has suffered an addiction is you get to understand this disease in a way that no textbook is going to teach you because you know this person. And so when you see them and you see legitimate fear in their eyes, you know what you're looking at. You know they're terrified.
And if you can sit there and look at someone terrified and tell me they're choosing this, then you need to go get your head checked. And again, like to sit there and have this conversation with him and to see how he couldn't even see the forest from the trees. Like he was so in the trees that it was all about plotting and planning and scheming.
Lisa (45:02.828)
And it didn't have a malicious intent to it, but it was just, was all survival driven. And again, this is somebody who had people like me going, we can drive. We'll drive as far as we need to drive right now.
But also, you end up becoming connected to the people that you're in hell with. So then it becomes this thing of, but then I'm leaving these people behind.
Chuck/Chris (45:40.576)
Hmm.
Lisa (45:41.484)
And again, as an outsider, I get it. I get for any family member going, yeah, but what the hell are you going to do to help them when you're sick? You can't help them. But it's still, I could see how hard that was. It's like, you've gone to war together. And the idea then of just walking away from people that you're living your day to day with, you're fighting and surviving with day to day, there's also that part of it.
and
Chuck/Chris (46:11.594)
That's, I wonder how much of that, and I'm trying to think back to my own experience, is the addict brain trying to keep you in that place? Right? Yeah, yeah.
Lisa (46:22.67)
think it's a bit of both. I've had this this exact, I've wondered this exact thing, and I don't know. And I think for every individual, the percent that we would divide that up would be different. But I think there's definitely a part of it that it's like your unwell brain that wants you to stay on well tells you well, you can't leave your friends. I don't leave your friends behind.
Chuck/Chris (46:41.366)
camaraderie.
Chuck/Chris (46:46.902)
Yeah, right. That's a low hanging fruit, right? know, for the addict mind, right? No, you gotta stay here. These are the people that, know, the way your mind plays tricks on you. Who knows, right, about that, so. Yeah.
Lisa (46:50.222)
Yeah.
Lisa (46:54.67)
Totally. Totally.
Yeah. And, you know, just because I'm mindful of time and I could like talk about this, you know, it's like a 25 year story. So it's like, could talk about it till the cows come home. And I'm sure every time we talk about it, it's like there's different things that come up or
Chuck/Chris (47:08.712)
I know you could.
Chuck/Chris (47:14.703)
And that's the thing, right? There's always going to be more time, you know, so, yeah. So maybe some of the highlights.
Lisa (47:17.988)
Yeah. But you know, so one of the things that is also I find fascinating, and maybe this is more like the physician in me finds it fascinating, is that through the journey, right, so through this journey of say, 25 years, where there has been, you know, numerous residential treatment stays, you know, which again, it's a chronic illness.
Chuck/Chris (47:45.802)
Yeah.
Lisa (47:48.354)
you know, I would say to people, expect that, you know, don't, I mean, obviously, our goal is that people go into recovery, and they remain in recovery. And because from a suffering perspective, I'm like, that is how you will minimize your suffering in life. But nonetheless, it happens. And, and I actually think for most people, it takes multiple goes through things to start to
to be aware of your own bullshit, right? Because it'll happen, right? Like in my family's case, you know, it would always start with, and again, he was never a drinker, but it'd be like, well, I'm out with the guys and everyone's having a beer and I, know, alcohol's not my problem. So like I can have a beer, you know? But again, if you're someone who's got a severe addiction to Coke or crack or meth or something, then often that's just, you know, it's one beer and then the next thing you know,
it's a crack pipe or whatever it is, you But one of the things I find interesting is how
In the medical community, we refer to it as a progressive illness. It's interesting to me how even with periods of abstinence, even with various interventions and different recovery programs and different therapies and whatever, it still progresses.
Chuck/Chris (49:20.426)
Yeah. You're always one drink away. You're always one use away, right? From right, boom, yes.
Lisa (49:21.571)
Right?
but it gets worse. Like you can have like, you you can have five years sober. And when you go into a relapse, often, and I've seen this with patients and I've experienced it in my family, that next relapse is going to be worse than the last one, even though in between was five years sober.
Chuck/Chris (49:44.82)
making up for lost time. That's what I call that. Right? Yeah.
Lisa (49:46.808)
Yeah, it's like, it's such a baffling, baffling disease, right?
Chuck/Chris (49:50.368)
Hola.
Chuck/Chris (49:53.718)
It really is, right? I mean, I went 20 years without crack. I was doing coke in that time, but I wasn't doing crack. And the moment I picked up that pipe, I made up for 20 years. It was like, it was crazy the amounts that I once, it was nuts. So yeah, yeah.
Lisa (50:08.684)
Yeah. Yeah. And again, you know, I can see how for a family member, they would look at it and go, but you learned a bunch of stuff in your sober time. You you learn things, you developed an understanding, you did therapy, you went to treatment, you went to AA, you did all the things. So when you relapse, aren't you relapsing with all this new knowledge that should, doesn't matter.
Chuck/Chris (50:35.582)
Absolutely. I would offer that that starts that shame again. Right. Well, fuck it. You know, and it like because again, if you have a period of sobriety, you know, it's like and you start using that some horrible shame. Right. And yeah, it can go bad quick. In our own community, right. Yeah.
Lisa (50:47.832)
Yeah. I mean, I really feel.
Lisa (50:57.294)
I mean, we've seen this recently, you know, and we have seen how deadly shame is, right? But I, yeah, I do, I think it's something that we've touched on in the podcast. And I think it's something you've touched on with other guests and people. But I really feel like it needs like,
it needs a titled episode, like it needs to be a focus of that. And I don't know who the right people would be to have on to do it. But that talk about relapsing and what comes, because we talk a lot about recovery, you know, and that's great. But it is a relapsing illness, it is not a cured illness. And so to me, it's like talking about relapse and the shame that comes with relapse.
is so critical because people love to talk about their recovery stories because they're proud of them and they should be proud of them and that's got its place. But when people relapse,
That's so meaningful is talking about the shame that comes with that. And so what do you do? Like if you're in recovery and you relapse and you are filled with shame and you're living the secret, you know, and again, it's hard to say, I don't know that there's, you know, it's not like we're going to have an episode and that's going to solve everybody's relapse struggles, but.
Chuck/Chris (52:32.982)
But it's a conversation to have most certainly, right? know, yeah. Yeah, absolutely it is, right?
Lisa (52:35.852)
you know, I mean, because I think too, that the longer that you're sober, the longer that you're well, the harder it is to deal safely with a relapse, because
Chuck/Chris (52:52.704)
directly proportionate without a doubt, without a shadow of a doubt, right? And especially as of course we've seen recently, if somebody has an identity that's built around their recovery, especially them, right? And I've said this to you offline, but you would be kind of the obvious first choice for me to go to if I relapsed. You would be, right? Or at least in the top five people that I would talk to.
Lisa (52:56.484)
Yeah.
Chuck/Chris (53:23.358)
And for that reason, you would be the last person I wanted to.
You know what I mean? So there's that dichotomy there that's really, really hard to address. Right? And I don't know.
Lisa (53:34.914)
know. And you know, I'm going to say this now, and I've thought this and I wish that I had said this six months ago, you know.
But for example, you know, if there's somebody, and I'm not saying I'd only do this for people in my world, but you know, if there are people who know me, and if those people are in recovery and relapse, you call me and I promise you that I will get you to treatment. And it can be our secret if you need it to, until you're ready to tell your story.
We will disappear. And you know what I mean? Like, again, we've had this experience recently and the number of times that I sit there and think like, and obviously it's the phone call that's so hard to make.
but if that phone call had been made.
Lisa (54:36.056)
You know, and I'm not, you know, I'm not God. Don't get me wrong. But it's like, if there are people in my world right now who are in recovery and it's like, you know what, you don't need to explain it. You don't need to talk about it. Just call me and say, come now. And I will come. And I will, I will make you, I will get you there. I will make you disappear. You know, we will come up with a story. We will come up with a narrative. It's not my story to tell.
Chuck/Chris (55:02.218)
Yeah.
Lisa (55:06.04)
You tell it when you're ready, but we can get you somewhere to get the help that you need. And, you know, and obviously to make that call, that's the struggle. That's the podcast that needs to happen is how, you know, what's the message, you know, and is there a message? Maybe the point is there's no message. I don't know. Maybe it's just needs to be a frequent conversation that's had with the hope that some percent of people, it changes the decisions that they make.
Chuck/Chris (55:37.6)
Yeah, well, if you can change one, right? That's all it takes. You know, if you can change one person's...
Lisa (55:42.552)
What I wouldn't give.
Lisa (55:47.246)
You know? Yeah.
Chuck/Chris (55:52.63)
We're gonna pick this up maybe next week. Maybe we'll have somebody on next week. don't know. I don't know what I'm doing yet, but I never did. Plan ahead, come on. That's some other guy. There's lots more conversations we had as there always is with us, right? For now though.
Lisa (55:59.438)
Hahaha!
Lisa (56:05.732)
Hahaha!
Chuck/Chris (56:16.49)
I think that's a really powerful message to exit on. So we'll switch gears and go to what's my favorite part of the show and that's the daily gratitude. So what are you grateful for today? What are you grateful for today, Lisa?
Lisa (56:30.67)
You know, I think just from this conversation, I can tell you that I'm grateful that I don't know that suffering. You know, I do, it's in my family. It's in my genetics, you know, and it could have just as easily been me. And, you know, if I could, I would take that. And I've said to my brother, I don't know if I would be strong enough.
I don't know what I would do with it. I don't know, would it break me? I don't know. But I can tell you without question that I would unburden him of his suffering if I could. But I, you know, just as we're like talking about this today, like I am so grateful that I don't know that level of suffering as somebody who's walked in those shoes. you know, if
again, if you're somebody out there who has a loved one, but yourself hasn't suffered, like you're one of the lucky ones, you know, I, I think it's one of the most brutal diseases that exists in the world today. And so if you know, like me, like I, I've peripherally suffered because of addiction, but I don't think for a minute that my suffering even comes close to what his has been. And I do get to
up and have a cup of coffee and you know and look forward to a coffee and just and it's so simple but again people in active addiction don't get that they do not get to get up and get excited about a cup of coffee you know like I'm lucky that I get to wake up and be excited to talk to a friend I get to wake up and be excited to drink a hot coffee I get excited to look outside and see a blue sky
The fact that those things bring me joy makes me really bloody lucky. You know? So, yeah, I'm grateful that I'm one of the lucky ones.
Chuck/Chris (58:44.308)
I too am grateful for your muggleness.
Lisa (58:46.114)
Hahaha!
Chuck/Chris (58:49.302)
I am. I really am. I mean, primarily because it means that you didn't have to suffer. And I mean, I care about you deeply, so I'm happy for that. But also because of what you have gone through and your professional experience, I say this all the time, it's a one in a million combination that one in 10, 100 million combination, I don't know.
Lisa (59:14.126)
Hmm
Chuck/Chris (59:14.878)
right, that you bring to the table and I'm very grateful for that, so very grateful for that. As we continue to build a network of people, it's just, it's absolutely amazing. And I think the work we have to do is only getting started as far as the people we can reach. But I really thinking about that. Go ahead.
Lisa (59:32.439)
Do you know?
I just want to interject something. Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. But I actually got a phone call yesterday. You know, so I'm in a, I'm in a number of private Facebook groups that are for Canadian physicians or Alberta physicians or Canadian physician moms, or there's all these groups, right. And somebody had posted in there looking for some help, you know, for a patient.
that was struggling with addiction. And then there was another physician who saw the post, I didn't even see it, who then tagged me and was like, hey, like, do you have something to offer? And ended up then having a conversation with a physician last night, who shared with me that it's not a patient, it's a brother.
and they're trying to figure out how to help them what to do. And again, largely because of this network. Like, you know, we had conversations about approaches, about compassion, about understanding, about interventions, about treatment centers. You know, but it's just at the end of that phone call,
Yes, there was a lot of information exchange that took place. But somebody just saying like, I feel so much better.
Lisa (01:01:06.552)
because of this conversation.
and knowing how families feel isolated and scared and helpless and alone. And because of, again, the people that I've met through this podcast, being able to say, here's resources for you, for your parents, for your sibling. And just knowing that they got off the phone, still with an unwell brother, but feeling maybe a little bit more hope.
maybe feeling a little bit less alone. It's like, again, that's what makes all of this worth it.
Chuck/Chris (01:01:47.668)
straight it does. Down straight it does. continuing with the conversation, but now that you went there, I firmly believe, and I've said this many times, way that myself and members of the Ash Lawson family like yourself, the best way we have to help people in addiction is to help their families. So can help their families understand the disease, help their families find resources such as FAR, such as ARC, such as Yatra. If you can help
families find their way to these resources and these understandings, ultimately you're going to help the person who's suffering an addiction. Much more so than having a recovery story. I think that's what we have to offer and it's what drives me 100 % towards. And again, it's almost like this renaissance of purpose that I've, like lately that I've had, know, I messaged you about this organization the other day. It's like for the children of people. It's like, my God.
So we could complete the circle and kind of like, right? Just this whole renewed sense of purpose, right? Which is, it's exciting to think that this network can still grow and still continue to help people.
Lisa (01:02:48.76)
Yeah, exactly.
Lisa (01:02:55.16)
Yeah. And it's easy to feel overwhelmed working in addiction, right? Because it is a vicious illness. It's not an easy to treat illness. And so it's easy to feel like we lose a lot of the time.
But it comes down as well for me to shifting the lens through which you are gauging what is success and realizing that again, if for five minutes you can speak to a family member and make them feel supported, cared about, heard, and they can get off a phone call and feel better, well, you just had a successful moment.
the person's still on well, there's still work to be done. But to try to appreciate and like honor those little moments that are successes, like that is a success. Especially when you've been that sibling and you feel completely lost and terrified and alone. You know, I know very well what it's like to...
Chuck/Chris (01:03:54.39)
100%.
Chuck/Chris (01:04:00.128)
No kidding.
Lisa (01:04:03.374)
feel like someone cares, to feel like somebody's there, to feel like somebody's listening, to feel like somebody has ideas. Like it can take you from a very low place and like lift you up to feeling like, okay, like, okay, like maybe, you know, maybe I can do this, maybe we can do this. And so it's just, yeah, just shifting that lens. It's like, there are a lot of these little successful moments that we can experience and share and offer.
And they make a big difference like to that person I spoke to yesterday. You know, that's her life, you know.
Chuck/Chris (01:04:38.656)
Massive, massive difference. And for it to be you too, of course, that never even really dawned on me till just now. It's like, my God, that's your person you're speaking to. It's a sibling of a, I can't believe I didn't, that didn't really hit me till just this moment as you were speaking, but yeah, right. yeah, I know where you've been. I know where you are. I hate to know. Better than anybody. Yeah, right, so. Well, now that we're done interrupting my gratitude, so yeah. I'll put positive things.
Lisa (01:04:55.438)
Yeah, yeah, I know what that feels like.
Chuck/Chris (01:05:08.714)
I'm also grateful to every single person who continues to interact with, watch, know, comment, share, like, even talk about the, com, our content. Every time you do these things keeps me living my best life. My best life is to continue making a humble living, spreading the message and the message is this. If you're an active addiction right now, today could be the day, today could be the day that you start a lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call them to detox, pray, go to church. I don't care. Do whatever it is you got to do to get that journey started.
If you're the loved one of somebody who's suffering an addiction right now, you should take the time to listen to our conversation. If you should take one more minute out of your day and text them, let them know they're loved. Use the words.
Lisa (01:05:46.562)
You are love.
Chuck/Chris (01:05:48.714)
that little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings him back.
There we go.
Shattered Stigma
Yatra
Morning Cup
