Jason is back to talk about some of the struggles he has faced when coupling his own mental health in the 12 step community.
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Chuck/Chris (00:00.973)
Hello everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds. Welcome to another episode of the Ashes to Awesome podcast. I'm your host, Chuck LaFlandre, checking in from Krabi, Thailand. Halfway around the world is my lovely co -host, Dr. Lisa in Calgary, Alberta. How you doing today, Lisa?
Lisa (00:14.816)
I'm good. I'm,
I don't know, it's been a busy week. It's been a hectic week and it's just Saturday morning, right? So it's, yeah, I'm glad to be here. I feel like I get to take a deep breath and just sit and do something I enjoy. So I'm happy to be here.
Chuck/Chris (00:33.293)
That's awesome. That's awesome. That's awesome. Glad to have you back on as per usual. And our guest today is returning guests, Jason McMillan from Surrey, BC. How you doing today, Jason?
Jason MacMillan (00:46.336)
truck come well. Yeah.
Chuck/Chris (00:48.311)
Did you ever just get shy? Folks, pre -record here. This guy was talking up a storm and now listen, he's just got shy on us. So what's going on, buddy?
Jason MacMillan (00:56.746)
No, I just when you ask that question, you have to think about that one for a little bit but I can yeah, I'm well just like a little Lisa was saying I'm good Yeah Yeah
Chuck/Chris (01:05.591)
Good stuff, good stuff. We're happy to have you back on. So this kind of peek behind the curtain thing, and Lisa, I guess you haven't been privy to any of this either. Jason and I talk sometimes via Messenger. He leaves me three minute voice notes and I listen to them and then generally respond back with like a three word text. But I love it, I love it. I do, that's not a complaint, that's more, it's informative, it's not me complaining. Because one of the things Jason gets quite passionate about in these...
Jason MacMillan (01:10.091)
Hmm.
Jason MacMillan (01:19.552)
Hahaha.
Jason MacMillan (01:23.87)
Mm -hmm.
Chuck/Chris (01:33.965)
more one -sided than not conversations is about mental health in the rooms. And for anybody that's somehow not aware of when I say the rooms, I mean in the 12 step communities. So Jason, last time you were on, we had a really great conversation as we tend to do. I should say, if you go to Jason's profile on our website, just by clicking on the icon on him on this episode.
Jason MacMillan (01:50.556)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Chuck/Chris (02:01.729)
You'll see some really great episodes. If go back and listen to the first one Jason was on, it's one of my favorite all times. It's definitely one of the most favorite by listeners as well, back when we were doing just audio. So I just think it about, I know, right? I know.
Lisa (02:15.53)
It was one of my favorites. I feel like there's an inside joke that I'm missing there, but you know when I
Chuck/Chris (02:20.776)
It's not even an inside joke. When I was doing this, I was thinking about the story about him showing up for work in his tuxedo or whatever the hell it was on the construction site, right?
Jason MacMillan (02:26.932)
I know you were, yeah, the professional day. Yeah.
Lisa (02:35.282)
So for me, it was, and probably still is one of my favorites. And I think one of the gifts that you have, Jason, is you're honest, you're humble, you're insightful, you're vulnerable. And so when you talk, it's like, feel like, I don't know, it just hits different. Like, I feel like I can really
Jason MacMillan (02:45.996)
Mm
Chuck/Chris (03:04.545)
relatable. It's very, very relatable, right? That's kind of the word that I've used to describe them.
Lisa (03:05.996)
Yeah, yeah, and impactful. Like I feel like, you know, listening to him talk has, it's hit me differently than a lot of people. Yeah, it's awesome.
Chuck/Chris (03:20.183)
It is, is, right. So welcome back, Jason. All that to say from both of us. Welcome.
Jason MacMillan (03:23.105)
Yeah, thank you.
Lisa (03:24.117)
Yeah
Jason MacMillan (03:25.792)
Yeah, it's funny because it's still, I don't know, it's still a little uncomfortable for me to receive compliments if I'm being honest. I was talking to my friend last night too and I gave him some compliments and he just said, replied, thank you. And I said, wow, it took me like two years to learn how to do that. Yeah.
Chuck/Chris (03:44.403)
That's very real struggle. think, I would dare say for most people, that's a very real struggle. And it really takes lot of intent. It's something I find myself that I have to really, all of us, or most of us, I should never say all, but most of us, when we hear that compliment, our gut instinct is to minimize it somehow, or even blatantly shy away or disagree with it. And so to be able to say thank you,
Jason MacMillan (03:55.712)
Hmm
Jason MacMillan (04:09.846)
Yep. Yeah.
Chuck/Chris (04:14.359)
those two words is actually like really tough for most of us to do. Right? So yeah, yeah.
Jason MacMillan (04:17.448)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm Well, I think for me it's easier to say Thank you when I know those things are true. It's harder for me to say thank you if it's if I'm For lack of better term a shitty person So if you guys are gonna be like, you're you're loving caring kind compassionate and I'm not any of those things if my actions don't reflect of that then it's probably harder for me to agree and say thank you, do you know what I mean like
Chuck/Chris (04:45.037)
If you're feeling like you're not, would maybe be.
Lisa (04:48.864)
Mm -hmm.
Chuck/Chris (04:50.457)
a better way to say that, because I don't think, Jason, at any point in your life you've not been any of those things. think your actions, your actions while your disease was running your life would have been a very different thing. you know, and go ahead, I'm going to speak for you.
Jason MacMillan (04:53.826)
Yeah, well
Jason MacMillan (05:03.582)
Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I can I would even say no, I agree with you, Chuck. And like, think, you know, our, would say our moral compass or our core values, our belief system like that. Like I think we talked about before, it's like we don't have like a moral deficiency or anything like that. we're unwelcome.
Jason MacMillan (05:27.259)
drives us to do some pretty fucked up things
Chuck/Chris (05:30.829)
does.
Lisa (05:34.934)
And I think, you know, something that Ryan Bathgate, right, often talks about is when we're out of alignment with our morals and our values. And I think what you're, what I'm hearing when you say that, Jason, is that when you're living according to your morals and values, it's easier to say thank you to a compliment. But when someone gives you a compliment and you're aware that you're not living according to your morals and values, that's
Jason MacMillan (05:41.067)
yeah. Yeah.
Chuck/Chris (05:41.175)
Yes.
Jason MacMillan (05:51.873)
Mm -hmm.
Jason MacMillan (05:57.846)
Yeah.
Lisa (05:59.382)
getting that positive feedback, it almost highlights for you that I'm not living according to those things today. And that's when it feels more uncomfortable maybe.
Jason MacMillan (06:04.99)
Right. Yeah.
Chuck/Chris (06:07.083)
I, that makes sense. That tracks, right? Yeah. Yeah.
Jason MacMillan (06:10.691)
I will just, I'll just be honest in here, on here and like transparent and I guess this is kind of like where we're going that just because like I'm, I think I've talked about this before, we have, because like I'm sobering out and trying to adhere to spiritual principles and values doesn't mean I can't be very manipulative. I feel like that's like a behavior that's really.
Chuck/Chris (06:32.112)
I got screenshots, bro. I got screenshots, man. I can show you that. Absolutely.
Jason MacMillan (06:35.818)
really ingrained in me and it's come up. It still comes up sometimes if I'm being honest. I'm definitely aware of it and I just try not to be a shitty human. That's really it. But you guys didn't know me before either or even when I first got sober. Thank God. Yeah.
Lisa (06:55.126)
Yeah
Chuck/Chris (06:55.265)
You
Chuck/Chris (07:00.137)
enough. I don't know how much you want to talk about it so after our last recording, it's up to you how much of your story you want to tell as always Jason. wouldn't do that right? What happened?
Jason MacMillan (07:04.95)
Yep.
Jason MacMillan (07:10.037)
Mm -hmm
Jason MacMillan (07:13.986)
So uncomfortable laugh, yeah. So I think we talked about like, I think you would.
Chuck/Chris (07:15.659)
I'll just put you on the spot. Yeah, right. Yeah.
Sorry, just the way you say that is exactly what Lisa was talking about earlier. Uncomfortable laugh. I love it. Go ahead, please. Sorry. Sorry to interrupt you.
Jason MacMillan (07:26.112)
Yeah.
Jason MacMillan (07:30.24)
Yeah, no, sorry Like at that time I was well Even prior prior to that so I started I knew something was like wrong with me, but I didn't know why and then so to I'll just say for as long as i've been sober, I thought that Is it was really hard for me to function and
Day -to -day if that makes sense. I
I was in like a constant state and still am all the time, like thinking that people were against me. My moods would shift. My attitude, my behavior would shift to like, I can be really genuine and kind and one minute and then something would happen. That's Lisa's psychiatrist, probably knows we're going with this one. then I would shift to like where I would just be, I'd feel super.
defensive, I would want to like push people away. thought it was, I think it was a good trauma response, I believe. I kept on, and it's really hard to function in, in, in life and relationships with, with that, you know, so it, so for, for five years or, whatever, I just thought that I, we get programmed so much almost by like, when I say we, I mean like members of Alcoholics Anonymous to think that everything is just untreated alcoholism, right? So
If I'm feeling restless, irritable, discontent, I need to go to more meetings, I need to help more people, need to do more meditation, need to do more steps. I did all of that. I did all of it and more. I did a lot of shit. It treated the symptoms of alcoholism quite well, I wasn't... I felt like I was again spinning my tires and I was hitting a wall, right? So that brought us, until the last episode that we did. And by that time, I was like, there was...
Jason MacMillan (09:30.624)
There was some events that happened that put me in a place of, would say depression. started having suicidal thoughts, which then, so after we recorded by that point, I believe I already took my, so I had a safety plan, you know, and it's like, these are, if this gets worse, this is what I'm going to do. I was honest with the people close to me that I trust. Thank God for them. And I, and I, and I have a good connection or so I have some good relationships with people inside the rooms who understand enough about the mental health piece to know that.
It wasn't just on trees alcohol or something that was going on with me, right? So they suggested I go to the hospital. I didn't really want to go to the hospital at that time. ended up one day just drove myself to the urgent response care center and I was fucked in. It was hard to get there and I found my, like I didn't want to ask for help. We talked about how hard it is to ask for help, right? And why we don't and I go there and it's...
Chuck/Chris (10:20.46)
Yeah.
Jason MacMillan (10:25.654)
I'm like, well, I work for this health authority. I'm like, I don't want anybody to see me in there. So I'm sitting there in my car, Phoenix, there's a treatment center right there. I have a spa and tits in there. I didn't want anybody to see me. I was so ashamed, you know, and I think there was some pride and some ego. I, at that exact moment as I'm sitting there, thank God, a friend of mine who works on another team for this health authority, he pulled it, he pulled up,
with his girlfriend, his partner, wife or whatever. So I saw him, I'm like, shit, I don't want him to see me here. I got out of my car and then he saw me and he's like, he was like, what's up big man? then I was actually, Chuck, think we're gonna talk about it after, but he's actually probably gonna come on here, be really good guest. So he thought I was working and he was like, what's wrong? He's like, are you okay? And I'm like, no. I kinda, you know, I got, we talked about vulnerability, like I got vulnerable, I started crying, I told him what was going on with me. And he's like, bro, he's like, I got you. He was like, come in here with me. And he -
I got connected with them. I did the little intake thing with the psych nurse and I connected with my GP, connected with the psychiatrist. saw him August 17th, because I was thinking worst case scenarios, I'm going to have to wait six, eight months to see psychiatrist because typically that's what it is. anyhow, so that's how that started. I got connected with my doctor. I went on, she prescribed me medication.
which I had my own kind of like, I would say biases towards, I thought that if I took medication, I was gonna be like numb to everything and walk around like a zombie or something like that was, you know, just pretty ignorant, I would say, right? And, I knew I probably needed to be on a medication and cause what I was doing wasn't working. So I started that and then I, after we, after that episode, Chuck, I started to...
the those thoughts like they weren't fleeting it kind of turned more into like an obsession and then in a plan and but then one night i was just i was i couldn't get out of it i just i just was gonna write like i was gonna kill myself and i started to think of how i was gonna do it and and then i was gonna write a note and think what the note would say who the note would be too i was like okay like this is pretty
Jason MacMillan (12:43.522)
pretty bad. I've never experienced that before. I was scared to be honest. I didn't want to do it, but I knew that if I wasn't honest about that and asked for help, probably wouldn't be here right now doing this. So I ended up, went to the hospital in Abbotsford and they admitted me into the psych unit for the night and thank God for them and thank God they had a bed there and they were pretty good. But it's funny because I was sitting in an emergency and I'm there and I'm
My head starts telling me, because I'm a really good bullshitter and manipulator and I hate being in hospital and I didn't want to be there, but I knew I needed to be there. You know, because I don't really have very good, you know, I've been in ICU. don't know how many, I don't have good experiences in hospitals, we'll just say that. But so I started telling myself, I'm like, you can just bullshit these people. only need, do I really need to be here? And then I'm just like, okay. But I like, I came here for a reason, you know, so I was just,
to be honest with myself and with them, I told them what was going on and then, yeah, that, so I turned 40, I did that Facebook post, I turned 40 years old in that psych unit, that's not what I obviously planned, but I'm really grateful I got to turn 40 and I got the right help. And then that brings us to, you know, I spend, I go to quite a few meetings and I hear a lot of things and you know, towards when people with...
Chuck/Chris (13:57.997)
getting.
Jason MacMillan (14:09.698)
very limited knowledge and no education and they're not healthcare professionals spelt off about, you know, if you have mental disorders, just do the 12 steps and go to more meetings and help people and all this shit that really we need to be fucking careful what we're saying to people and when they come in there and they're new and they're vulnerable and they're looking at people that have been there for a while and we're seeing this stuff of confidence, like they're going to start believing that and I even
I believe some of it too, you know, I thought I was like doing this thing wrong or something. I did know enough at that point to know that I'm like, okay, something else is going on. But I think we need to have enough humility to say, I have no opinion on this. I'm not a fucking therapist. I'm not a psychiatrist. I'm not a psych nurse. I'm not a healthcare professional. And it does, talks about actually in our, this is the big book, Falcox Anonymous. So there's a, how it works. It says,
There are those two who suffer from grave emotional and mental mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest. So it's all in there. Right. And I just, I guess I wish that, and this isn't everybody right. But there's a lot, I've heard a lot of things that I just cringe when I hear that. I'm like, that is gonna, that's going to kill people. Do you know what I mean? Like it, it, yeah. So it's concerning, right. But I don't know if that answered your question, Chuck. But so since
Chuck/Chris (15:28.194)
Yep.
Jason MacMillan (15:34.826)
Our last episode, been able to, I was just talking to a couple of friends of mine. I've actually experienced happiness and peace for the first time in a while. doing a lot of, I've added some other things too. As I said, I'm gratitude lists and cold showers and saunas and stuff like that. So I think all those things are beneficial. I don't believe in just me relying on the medication, but I think adding the medication and getting the right one and the right dose has been a complete game changer for me.
Chuck/Chris (16:01.227)
Yeah, well, we were talking about that pre -record, right? And that's absolutely amazing, right? It's funny, and I want you to talk about, because I think the humility that your doctor expressed to you about your mental health, because we're sitting here with Lisa right now, I think it's a very relevant thing. So why you talk about that for a second? Yeah.
Jason MacMillan (16:03.657)
Yeah.
Jason MacMillan (16:14.85)
Mmm. Yeah.
Jason MacMillan (16:21.388)
Yep. Well, she's amazing. She's fucking amazing. Super grateful for her. it's now I have, you know, we talked about a lot about like, support groups inside recovery and our support network, how important that is. Well, now I have, now I have like healthcare professionals involved in my, you know, my psychiatrist and my doctor, a huge part of that. So she, she didn't want to, when I was still having those, those suicidal thoughts, she didn't want to do anything with my.
with my medication, changing the dose or changing the medication, unless we were convinced it was the medication, because I was still having those thoughts when I was in the psych unit, the on -call psychiatrist increased my medication, she doubled it, and I think they were just trying to keep me alive or whatever the hell, but nonetheless, she knew that had that appointment coming up with the psychiatrist on August 17th, so she didn't want to really be too involved when it comes to that, she's like, that's not my, I guess, like, main scope of...
Practice, you know, so she yeah, I definitely had enough humility to say like I'm not This isn't like my thing for lack of whatever right so Which I really appreciate her not doing that. She also she allowed me to make like decisions She trusted my my input and she wasn't just like quick to say like when I said hey like I want to adjust my my dough She wasn't like no, you know some doctors can be right. I feel like there's a lot of ego attack like sometimes with some of them
but that wasn't my experience with her at all. So she's been amazing and supportive. She actually sent me a referral for counseling as well. So I've been doing that and yeah, yeah, my psychiatrist is awesome.
Chuck/Chris (17:57.008)
wow.
Wow, that's awesome, right? Just the idea though that a GP would say, no, why don't you talk to the psychiatrist about that and let them kind of be the focus. I think that shows a lot of humility, a lot of humility, right? yeah, yeah. Lisa, what you got to say? You've always got something to say.
Jason MacMillan (18:07.404)
Totally.
Yeah. yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa (18:14.22)
Mm
Lisa (18:21.563)
mic drop. I don't need to say anything. You know, and often feel like that, like I'll see Jason's posts, you know, where he sort of says the same stuff that he's talking about now. And to me, like, I just am so aligned with his views on that, you know, I don't think
Jason MacMillan (18:27.767)
Hmm.
Lisa (18:44.546)
I think there's a lot of people out there who believe that, if you go see a psychiatrist, of course they're going to give you labels, they're going to give you diagnoses, they're going to make you take medication. And I don't believe that at all. Not only because I don't practice that way, but you know, if you go back residency through today, you're looking at 11 years of me working with a lot of psychiatrists through my training and then as colleagues.
Jason MacMillan (18:51.618)
Mm.
Lisa (19:14.09)
I just don't see the people that I work with being that way either. To me, I'll say to patients that if we're gonna diagnose something, whether it is a depression, an anxiety disorder, a trauma disorder, or whether it's a personality trait or personality disorder, there's no motive for me to put labels on people. That is not my goal.
Jason MacMillan (19:17.954)
Mmm.
Jason MacMillan (19:42.283)
Mm
Lisa (19:43.97)
But I've met patients who, know, at the end of the day, my impression will be one that it's largely personality based and that what they need is therapy, not medication. And I'll have those patients say to me, I've been doing therapy for 10 years, like, and it's done nothing for me. Then we dig into, okay, what have you been doing in therapy? Like what modalities are you learning? And then we realize that they haven't been doing the right modality of therapy. So they've spent a decade of their money and their time
Jason MacMillan (19:54.29)
Mmm.
Jason MacMillan (20:03.99)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Jason MacMillan (20:09.996)
Hmm.
Lisa (20:14.1)
seeing a therapist and not actually doing the correct modality for their personality. So that's where it's like, if we're not going to explore and figure out what your personality is, what your diagnosis is, then you run the risk of being on the wrong medications or doing the wrong type of therapy. So it is important for us to figure that stuff out, not to put labels on people, but so that we can set them up with the right supports.
Jason MacMillan (20:19.788)
Mmm.
Jason MacMillan (20:39.138)
Mm
Lisa (20:43.266)
because not everything needs medication, not everything needs modality X of therapy. So, and I completely agree with Jason on the risk of...
Jason MacMillan (20:48.489)
Mm
Lisa (21:00.498)
swinging too far to the direction of all you need to do is. You know, it's like even the other day I saw a post on social media of somebody who again is not a medical professional. And it was this rant about, know, if you have depression, you don't need medication, you need good food, and you need sunshine, and you need exercise. Yes, you do, but
Jason MacMillan (21:04.822)
Mm -hmm.
Jason MacMillan (21:17.964)
Mmm.
Jason MacMillan (21:27.317)
Mm
Lisa (21:28.338)
If you have clinical depression and neurotransmitters in your brain are not at the levels they need to be at, then there's a real danger in telling somebody that all they need is because then what happens is if that person is clinically depressed, then they start to go out and do and they take it on as it's like it was my fault. Like I'm just not eating well enough. I'm just not getting enough sun.
Jason MacMillan (21:43.488)
Mm -hmm. Mm.
Jason MacMillan (21:53.184)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Lisa (21:56.284)
I, you know, and it becomes this thing that they feel they should be able to fix. Now, there's a certain element of that. But if that person then goes out and they eat well, and they exercise, and they sit in the sunshine, and they're not getting better, well, then they're going to be more hopeless because they're like, well, I'm doing it wrong. I'm inadequate. I can't fix this. This is never going to get better. And then
Jason MacMillan (22:13.344)
Mmm.
Mm -hmm.
Lisa (22:23.796)
In comes things like suicidal ideation. And so, you know, or I've also had patients tell me, like, I'm afraid to tell my sponsor that I'm on an antidepressant.
Jason MacMillan (22:33.345)
Mmm.
Chuck/Chris (22:35.431)
see that's, that is so, yeah, that's, that's, that is a problem with, with, with your sponsor, not, not with you, right? Yeah. Absolutely.
Jason MacMillan (22:36.256)
Mm -hmm.
Lisa (22:39.734)
Right? there's, yeah, so there's a lot of danger to that. You know, because obviously you want people to be honest with themselves and with their support network. And you don't want to minimize that all they need to do and make it out like the recipe to their healing is really simple. Because if it's not simple, or if it's not just a one piece recipe, then they start to
Jason MacMillan (22:42.87)
Mmm. Mm -hmm.
Jason MacMillan (22:51.638)
Yeah.
Jason MacMillan (23:00.684)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Lisa (23:09.782)
believe that they're doing it wrong or they're not capable or they're inadequate or and then hopeless, right? Because it's like, well, I'm doing all the things.
Chuck/Chris (23:15.713)
Well, and Jason just spoke to that, right? Where he thought he wasn't doing it right. Right? I mean, that's crazy, right? Sorry, crazy is probably the wrong word to use in this context, but yeah.
Lisa (23:20.182)
Yeah. Yeah. And I'll say to people, you know, yeah, but it's like if somebody has diabetes, do we tell them that if will you just, you know, sleep more and relax more and meditate more and, you know, go for nature walks more? Do you believe that then their pancreas is just going to magically make more insulin?
Jason MacMillan (23:22.4)
Mmm.
Chuck/Chris (23:45.741)
or it's not right. Yeah. Yep. Yep.
Lisa (23:47.244)
Your brain is an organ. There are neurotransmitters, there are chemicals in our brain that dictate if we're anxious, if we're depressed, if we're psychotic, if we're manic. Why do we want to oversimplify it? And again, I fully believe in behavioral activation. You know, I believe in the fact that we need a community. We need to be surrounded by people. If we isolate ourselves alone in our basement in the dark, we're not gonna feel good. So yes, we need community. We need to...
Jason MacMillan (24:14.424)
Mm -hmm.
Lisa (24:16.79)
get ourselves moving, we need endorphins, we need exercise, we need good food, we need sleep, we need all of that. But if we're doing those things and our brains are not capable of producing the necessary chemicals to help us feel well, then sometimes we need medication.
Chuck/Chris (24:35.597)
Absolutely, right. And I think if you're talking to somebody who's unwell in the first place and is walking, to a newcomer, especially to a newcomer, right, but anybody with any amount of time, just by default, the people that you're speaking to in a 12 -step space are sick to some different degrees, right? So there, all of those things you said, Lisa, are just exasperated that much more when somebody's, especially, you know,
Jason MacMillan (24:35.712)
Hmm.
Jason MacMillan (24:45.343)
Mm
Jason MacMillan (24:57.184)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Chuck/Chris (25:04.759)
coming off of when they're new, right? So you're feeling shitty, you're feeling all of these things, and you're placing trust in the old timers, if you want to call them that, the people that have been around for a few years. So their words mean so much to you. You don't need medication. That means so much more than some asshole on social media spouting off a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, right? And even more so the case when you're in a recovery community, right? So much more. I can tell you,
Jason MacMillan (25:14.592)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Mmm.
Jason MacMillan (25:33.238)
Yeah
Chuck/Chris (25:35.169)
back when, and you remember this, when I was still in Calgary, Lisa, when I finally got some medication for ADHD and the difference it made to me, do you remember that? It was one of my family members. Well, you know me, I'm not a medication person. And to this day, when I'm having a bad day with it and I'm frustrated, I think about that and it makes me so angry. You're not, really, right? So, yeah.
Lisa (25:59.042)
And still, like, I'll have patients say that to me. And I'll say to them, if you went in and the doctor told you that you had an infection, would you take the antibiotics? 9 .9 times out of 10, the answer is yes. And I'll say to them, would you go home and Google your antibiotic to see all the potential side effects and what might happen? No one Googles their antibiotic. I promise you, if you Google your antibiotic, OK, because anything that's ever happened to somebody on an antibiotic, they're going to list it. And it's like,
Chuck/Chris (26:22.903)
that.
Lisa (26:26.53)
there are in some cases some pretty nasty side effects that you can get, but we still take the antibiotic because if we have a bacterial infection, we need the antibiotic, you know? And same thing, people who say, well, I'm not a medication person. If your doctor said today that you have diabetes, would you take your metformin? Would you take your insulin? Nine times out of 10, they would take it. So these people who say they're not medication people, they're often not
Chuck/Chris (26:33.549)
Yeah.
Jason MacMillan (26:33.59)
Hmm.
Jason MacMillan (26:44.556)
Mmm.
Lisa (26:55.818)
psychotropic medication people. And so then the question is why? Why is it that you would take the antibiotic and the metformin and the heart disease medications, but you're going to think real hard about whether you're going to take your antidepressant or antipsychotic or whatever? There's... And to me, there's the only explanation is stigma.
Chuck/Chris (26:58.315)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jason MacMillan (27:00.694)
Hmm.
Chuck/Chris (27:13.41)
or even worse, stigmatize somebody else for doing it.
Jason MacMillan (27:17.546)
Mm
Yeah. Yeah.
Chuck/Chris (27:21.163)
Of of course it is, of course it is, right?
Lisa (27:22.826)
It's stigma. So it's like, not that you're a medication or not a medication person. It's that you have deep rooted stigma against mental illness. And you're putting that under the guise of I'm not a medication person.
Jason MacMillan (27:27.138)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Chuck/Chris (27:32.747)
Absolutely.
Chuck/Chris (27:37.323)
Yes. Jason, I think as I'm sitting here listening and thoughts forming at a thousand mile an hour in my own head, as they tend to do this message brought to you by ADHD, it's, it's awful as it is that you went through that experience. Obviously it's, I mean, we're all very grateful that, that you're still with us. I mean, very, very grateful for that. It's awful as that you went through with it. I think.
Jason MacMillan (27:45.537)
Mm
Jason MacMillan (27:55.382)
Mmm.
Jason MacMillan (27:58.72)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Mm
Chuck/Chris (28:07.073)
the silver lining or some other cliche, if you want to throw it at that, is that, as I said to you pre -record, you found a hill for you to plant your flag. Right? So you can be that person in the rooms who says, hey, no. Right? And we've seen it on your rants, your tangents on Facebook. And I don't mean that negatively. I mean that quite positively. Right? When you make a post about mental health awareness. Right? And I think that's, if you continue to do what you're doing,
Jason MacMillan (28:27.626)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Chuck/Chris (28:36.523)
and you continue to spread that message, that whatever suffering, and I can't speak for you, but I would say whatever suffering you went through to get to that point, into that passionate understanding, has been worth it. Right?
Jason MacMillan (28:38.69)
Mm.
Jason MacMillan (28:49.415)
you know, absolutely and yeah, and it was like I kind of see it now also Chuck and it's like I Think it talks about it actually one of our step nine Promises we'll see how no matter how far down the scale we have gone we can see we will see how our Experience can benefit others. Right? So it's another added piece to that really you know, so
Chuck/Chris (29:12.845)
Yeah, yeah, it's so you just did it. You just minimize the compliment. You see what you did there, right? Gotcha. So because not many people are doing that, right? It's too easy to a buy into that. 12 steps will cure everything when it's really good at what it's good for. But it doesn't help everything, right? And it's even easier.
Jason MacMillan (29:19.798)
Hmm.
Jason MacMillan (29:27.67)
Mm
Jason MacMillan (29:36.215)
Mm
Chuck/Chris (29:42.093)
to just stay silent if you believe different. So the fact that you're not being silent about that, I think is a really big deal. Right, so.
Jason MacMillan (29:49.655)
Mm
Lisa (29:50.562)
Does it ever come up in the rooms, Jason? Like I know you'll post about it and it's always like super eloquently put. I love it. But in the rooms, do you find yourself kind of keeping that to yourself because you think, if I share this view in the room, I'm going to get shut down or.
Chuck/Chris (30:08.813)
Did you before or do you now? I'll add to her question and I'll leave it at that and let you answer.
Jason MacMillan (30:15.334)
Okay, so for quite a while now, you know, I go to still go to lots of meetings and you know, I get asked to share I share I do and even you know prior to all this I would talk about the importance of seeking outside professional help, you know more specific probably to to counseling because I didn't really know enough much about the mental health piece. I knew that mental health was a thing but so after kind of going through my
Experience and being pretty like, you know passionate about it and also listening to other People, you know talk like i've heard some some of the things i've heard are fucking wild, you know and actually I was I was at this one meeting this is a few months ago and i'm and i'm sitting in there and A couple guys they got up that you've been sober a long time, you know, and they have best intentions Their intentions are really good. However, they started to say, know if you have
Anxiety depression just need to help somebody. It's like well not Not necessarily. you know, so then there's me in there, you know I've helped a shit ton of people and not to I help people, you know, and that wasn't my experience so Nonetheless, Another guy got he was actually I talked to him after he's a registered nurse and he it was funny because he was the last person they asked to share he got up there
And just said, please don't tell people to stop taking their medication. Talk about some of the consequences attached to that. We're not healthcare professionals. We're not educated, you know. So I actually went and I spoke to them after and I said, thank you for doing that. You know, and so to answer your question, Lisa, I'm not worried about like, I do, do openly talk about it, right? I try to make it also very clear for the people that are new that
seeking professional help, whether it be for trauma or for mental health, probably will not keep you sober. It did not keep me, you know, it's an added piece. I think it's important. I think let's get sober first, let's stay sober, let's build a solid foundation, let's build a support network, and then maybe we'll look at those things after, you know, and for lots of us, there's other things, right? So I am quite passionate about it and almost like, I almost get a little bit,
Jason MacMillan (32:36.794)
Angry you can probably hear that in my voice when I when I share sometimes about Cuz it's good. It's just super it's irresponsible It's really irresponsible and just I'm no more concerned about like I don't want people to fucking die and it's already hard enough this thing on its own right and let alone yeah mental health and do it and Trauma and so when it's confusing and when people again when they come in and they're super new and they're vulnerable and they're looking for direction and they're looking for help in their
And they're looking towards the people that have been around and when we're saying things for confidence like we I fucking believed it I would believe anything that they said I was so desperate, you know, I just trusted they knew what they were talking about But this is the thing and I've heard this You know if you want an opinion and ask an alcoholic or addict if you want the if you want the facts if you want the truth you go to the literature in the program and it's all right there so And then how true is that right? Like it's it's been my experience. So
Chuck/Chris (33:28.083)
yeah, So you said something there, Jason, that I do want to hold on for a second because we talked about this recently, Lisa, you and I did. I made a reel about it. That's why I remember. But the idea that when somebody first gets there, let's get sober and then and then let's look at the mental health. And Lisa spoke about this in a recent reel, right, where she spoke to so many of those
Lisa (33:49.27)
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Chuck/Chris (33:57.737)
symptoms that may, you know, lot of the behaviors that may present as the XYZ are not XYZ when somebody gets sober, right? And they stop having narcissistic traits or they stop being an asshole and they stop being all these things, right? So I think it's important that you said that, Jason, really important that you said that actually. Yeah, right. So let's get sober and then figure it out, right?
Jason MacMillan (34:01.644)
Mm -hmm.
Jason MacMillan (34:05.856)
Mmm.
Jason MacMillan (34:12.566)
Mm -hmm.
Lisa (34:16.16)
Mm
Jason MacMillan (34:16.394)
Well because, alcoholism is a disease. When it goes untreated, we need to treat the symptoms of alcoholism. Right? So when that goes untreated, there's people that make the supreme sacrament that fucking kill themselves from untreated alcoholism. So it must be kind of confusing to try to, it's like, what is this? But I believe it's like, okay, once we're separated from substances for long enough, and maybe once we...
do something to treat the symptoms of alcohol, you know, inside the rooms, it's like, well, let's go through a set of steps, because that's what we do, right? Yeah, but again, it's definitely not a cure -all. So.
Chuck/Chris (34:50.07)
Find a baseline. Right. Yeah.
Chuck/Chris (34:57.174)
Is that the right terminology, Lisa? Find a baseline? Did I say that right?
Lisa (35:00.722)
Yeah, it's interesting because I sort of agree yes and no. Because so for example, you can have alcohol induced depressive disorder, right? Alcohol is a depressant. And so if you've got somebody who has alcohol use disorder, they will often describe all sorts of depressive symptoms.
Chuck/Chris (35:06.198)
Okay.
Jason MacMillan (35:13.366)
Mmm.
Lisa (35:22.718)
in the moment, you if they're still actively drinking or they've just stopped drinking, it's really hard to tell like, is this all because of the drinking? And so there's alcohol as a chemical that is a depressant, right? So it's like, is it that this is in your system or recently in your system, and it's making you present as depressed? Then if you have someone who has alcohol use disorder or any kind of substance use disorder,
Jason MacMillan (35:31.436)
Mm -hmm.
Lisa (35:49.846)
there's the consequences of their substance use disorder that can also make them look depressed, right? It's like, well, my wife left me and I lost my job. My kids won't speak to me. And so I'm stressed out and I go to bed and I perseverate and I can't sleep. So there's the consequences of the untreated substance use disorder that can present as depression. And then there's depression because there's an imbalance of chemicals in your brain.
Jason MacMillan (35:53.218)
Mmm.
Lisa (36:16.364)
But so my approach to something like that, like if I had a patient that I was working with like that, first off, it's the education piece. It's like, I don't know. I don't know if you were sober, if you'd still be depressed or not, right? I don't know if you and your wife fixed your marriage and your kids called you if you would still feel depressed. But I will often treat that depression. You know?
Jason MacMillan (36:25.002)
Mm
Mm -hmm.
Jason MacMillan (36:35.318)
Mm -hmm.
Jason MacMillan (36:40.086)
Mm -hmm. -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Chuck/Chris (36:40.757)
Okay. Okay.
Lisa (36:41.62)
Now, what I would say to somebody is obviously, yes, we need to figure out how to get you off the booze, right? So it's like, let's get you into a residential treatment program or let's get you connected to outpatient treatment, depending on what's appropriate for the patient. But I would often say to that person, regardless of whether your depression is caused by A, B or C, the reality is, is right now you're feeling depressed. And so my approach in a case like that would be to
Jason MacMillan (36:46.837)
Mm -hmm.
Jason MacMillan (37:04.628)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Lisa (37:10.71)
put them on something for the depression while also working on the substance use disorder, working on the therapy, I would do it all. And I would say to them, know, six, no, it's like I would say, you know, when you've got, yep, yep. And so it's down the road. Like if we can help you to get sober and to stay sober and you're starting to feel really well.
Chuck/Chris (37:20.513)
And I guess it's not like it's a commitment for over time. We can look at this in a month and adjust accordingly kind of thing. So yeah.
Lisa (37:36.044)
then down the road we could have a conversation about do we wanna try backing this off, stopping it and seeing what's there, right? But to not treat somebody because, well, they've just gotten sober from alcohol and it's probably the alcohol. It's like, maybe, but if they're depressed right now, then let's boost their serotonin and see if we can help them. Because the other thing is if someone is depressed,
Jason MacMillan (37:40.994)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Chuck/Chris (37:42.166)
Okay.
Jason MacMillan (37:44.8)
Mmm.
Jason MacMillan (37:57.14)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Lisa (38:05.292)
they're more likely to fall back to the substance too, to just numb it.
Jason MacMillan (38:08.102)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, I've actually I believe for a long time as long as I was this abstinent, you know So I've been separated from drugs alcohol countless times My I thought that my life would get significantly better and actually got worse It got worse when you separated me from substances because now I have to sit in me and I don't have a Solution anymore being the drugs and alcohol, right? So I
Chuck/Chris (38:09.089)
Yeah, there is that. There is that.
Lisa (38:11.595)
Right?
Chuck/Chris (38:32.759)
yeah. There's something to be said for self -medicating, right? It works rather well until it doesn't.
Jason MacMillan (38:38.974)
Well, I... Yeah.
Lisa (38:44.502)
Yeah, so I agree. So I think, you know, the big one for me is the personality disorders that I'm like, I'm not touching personality disorders, unless I've got collateral from reliable people about what you were like, pre substances, like, I'm not going to say that you're a narcissist, or you're anti social, or whatever, because
Jason MacMillan (38:58.998)
Mmm.
Lisa (39:03.882)
I think people in active addiction will be manipulative and deceitful because that's how they feed their disease. And so I won't go there. I won't label people in active addiction with those sorts of things. But if I think that they're anxious or they're depressed, then I will try to treat that, recognizing that substances may be contributing to it, but knowing too that if I can try to treat those things,
Jason MacMillan (39:09.014)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Chuck/Chris (39:09.749)
Absolutely.
Jason MacMillan (39:17.843)
Mm
Jason MacMillan (39:26.54)
Mm -hmm.
Lisa (39:29.908)
I think we set people up for greater success in becoming abstinent and staying abstinent.
Jason MacMillan (39:32.652)
Mm -hmm.
Mmm.
Chuck/Chris (39:36.545)
I think it's Lisa, if you went back and you probably won't watch this episode because I you typically don't watch your own, but you went back when you said people in active addiction can be manipulative and you could just see the two of us identically like relating like, yeah, yeah, that's totally true. Yeah.
Lisa (39:48.691)
Hahaha!
Jason MacMillan (39:52.33)
Well, I was even going to say too, is that people also not in active addiction, like again separating people from substances and myself being included, I was the exact same person until I changed my behavior. So I was still dishonest, manipulative, selfish, self -centered, still justified, rationalized, like all of these things. We're literally the exact same person without substances. Do you know like it?
Lisa (40:20.268)
Do you think some of that, Jason, do you think through years of active substance use, again, it becomes habitual, right? Because inactive substance use, have to be manipulative and deceitful so that you can stay in your addiction. Do you think that when you first got sober that some of that ongoing behavior, was that because that had become your habit now? This is how I operate? Yeah.
Jason MacMillan (40:26.05)
Mm -hmm.
Jason MacMillan (40:29.859)
yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yep. Yep.
Yeah.
Jason MacMillan (40:47.136)
Yeah, that's how we survive, you know, and for like a lot of us like me, I was out there for a long time. So those behaviors were so ingrained in me. That was my default setting. So just because I'm all of sudden, I'm not going to say sober, I'm going to say abstinent. I'm still exactly the same, the same person. It takes time. And I think there's like so many moving parts to it. Maybe that somebody was only out there for like a couple of months, their experience might be a bit different, not to minimize that, you know? So, yeah.
Lisa (41:16.098)
Yeah, you know, and I always go back. mean, I think I knew this baseline anyway, and I knew this through family, like my own family experiences and whatnot. But I had this patient who was with me for about 13 months in the hospital. And really sadly ended up, you know, he had developed schizophrenia. So had been, you know, into some really heavy drug use had had
Jason MacMillan (41:33.843)
Mm
Lisa (41:39.958)
repeated substance -induced psychotic episodes and then got to a point where even without the drugs, we couldn't get the psychosis to go away. And had a diagnosis of schizophrenia, was quite functionally impaired and ended up needing to go live in a facility for the rest of his days. Glad to know, I think it's been a few years since he's been out and he's healthy and happy. And I have colleagues who still see him in the community at the place he lives at and he's doing quite well.
Jason MacMillan (41:55.933)
Mm -hmm. Mm.
Lisa (42:09.1)
but this is a guy who had been diagnosed as antisocial personality disorder. Basically like someone who does bad things and, I'm you, this guy was an absolute sweetheart, like a pussy cat. I remember being in hospital and almost getting assaulted by an unwell psychotic patient and he stepped in and got between me and this patient. And once he was sober,
And also it wasn't just sober. He was sober, his illness was treated. He was in a place where he was being treated with respect. He was cared for, he was safe, he had a bed, he had food. There was like nothing about his personality that I would have called antisocial. You know, he was an incredibly soft, kind human being. But again.
Jason MacMillan (42:55.372)
Hmm.
Lisa (43:02.262)
during his years of active addiction. And then I think for a period thereafter, because again, it is it's this becomes a habit. But yeah, it was just so interesting to read old documentation about this patient and then to see the version of him that I got to know over the course of a year. Yeah, just no way, I don't buy it. You know, it's it's what addiction does. Just one of the many things right that it does.
Jason MacMillan (43:28.62)
Mm -hmm.
Lisa (43:32.524)
Yeah.
Chuck/Chris (43:34.221)
Absolutely. Jason, what else you got for us? What's tickling your fancy these days?
Lisa (43:42.772)
I can I ask you something, Jason? And again, if you're don't want to talk about it on here, it's totally fine. But I keep thinking about that description of you sitting there feeling suicidal, thinking about the note, and then ultimately, taking yourself to ask for help. Right? Like, I just feel like that is so profound. And I'm so I feel so sad that you were in that place.
Jason MacMillan (43:44.961)
Mm
Jason MacMillan (43:57.057)
Mm
Lisa (44:11.648)
you know, just thinking about you sitting somewhere, thinking about doing that and writing the note and who to write, like all of that, like it just breaks my heart. And, you know, if you ever find yourself there again, please call me. But I'm wondering, like, have you reflected on, on that time in a way that you can speak to it? But what do you think helped you choose path B and not path A?
Jason MacMillan (44:19.318)
Mm
Lisa (44:40.768)
You know, because that's the thing is that reaching out, making the phone call, asking for help in those moments, that's what's so damn hard for so many reasons. What do you think it was that stopped you from acting on those thoughts and instead going and asking for help?
Jason MacMillan (44:44.435)
Mm
Jason MacMillan (44:49.346)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Jason MacMillan (44:59.72)
Mmm. that's good question. It's it's if I had to You know, think about that when I would say so there
Chuck/Chris (45:10.507)
Jason, before you answer that, can I get you to?
Jason MacMillan (45:18.333)
Jason MacMillan (45:21.77)
Yeah, I like there's so there's, there's, there's three core principles that we that we kind of learn and will that we bring to the table and recovery and that's, you know, honesty, open mindedness and willingness and kind of without those refuct, right. So I've been able to apply those in my life and in my sobriety. And that just doesn't
Jason MacMillan (45:52.182)
There's a yeah, like I'd say the willingness the Part like first so I need to be honest with myself To be honest with people around me, you know, I need to be open -minded enough to know that okay Like something else is going on for me and then I'm have enough willingness to you know Just ask for help have some humility and I guess that's really what it what it was I would say like I just didn't want to I did as much as I would I didn't I didn't want that to happen, but I know in order for that
not to happen, there needs to be some action attached to it. So I couldn't just sit there and be like, I don't want to die. it's almost like, it's almost an analogy when the guy's in the ocean, he's drowning, and someone throws him a life preserver, and then he doesn't take it. So we can sit and we can pray all we want for help. But if we don't take the action, that's the best way I can describe it.
For me at that time, the action was asking for help and going to the hospital. Yeah.
Chuck/Chris (46:59.405)
This extremely insightful thing to say and to do. And I think men being men, thankfully we're at a time when that's nowhere near what it was, even 20 years ago, but very hard thing to do. We're proud of you for doing that, right? It's, yeah.
Jason MacMillan (47:12.726)
Mm
Lisa (47:16.29)
I agree. Like, I think, you know, it sounds like you're in a better place. So it's like to sort of sit here today and to say, well, you know, we learned these things and, and those things stuck with you, obviously, and even in that moment, you know, that those thoughts were there. And obviously, there was some battle in your mind, I'm guessing at that point, but still the fact that, you know, that those principles were still with you is really, really amazing. But I
I do appreciate that it's one thing to sit here today and to say, well, you I know these three things, and I put them into action. But in that moment, it's like that, you know, I can imagine for people who find themselves in that situation, that that's, that's the hard part. Like, the hard part is to sit there and to, to do, or to apply, you know, those sorts of things.
Jason MacMillan (47:58.655)
Yeah.
Jason MacMillan (48:03.466)
Mm -hmm Well, yeah, yeah, no totally and I think like for me I've talked about this quite a bit. It's it's it's easy for me to to show up to For to go to a meeting when I feel like going to a meeting but it's like it's those moments when I don't feel like going that that count the most you know and it's easy at the end of the show we're gonna do the gratitude list right and and So one thing I learned because I would always say I learned that gratitude was an action
I learned that early in recovery, you know, and did my actions always reflect my gratitude and answer is no. So I can say I'm grateful for you guys and I can treat you guys like shit. So there's a disconnect there, right? I'm grateful for my family, but I never come around. I'm grateful for my friends. I lie to them and I break plans, you know, so it's easy. For me, it's, Chuck and I talked about this too, it matters most for me to try to find gratitude when things are not.
going to plan, you know, and what is the plan mean anyway? I'm like, don't know, anything needs to be like an acceptance speech that this might not be what I want right now, but this is the what is and how do I, you know, how do I get out of this? And it's usually more times than not just being honest and asking for help and not only asking for help, receiving the help, taking the suggestions, taking the action. It's easy to reach out for help. Sorry, I don't wanna say it's easy, but that's one part of it.
That's one part of it. If I'm not willing to put in the action myself, I wouldn't be here. Even coming to recovery and it's like, yeah, I need help. I'm fucked. Yeah, we get it. You're here. So it's like, well, we suggest that you get a home group, you get a service position, you get a sponsor. And it's like, yeah, no, whoa, whoa, I got this from here. And that was me for like 15 years. So I think we need to also be willing to, and whatever that looks like.
Lisa (49:57.983)
Mm
Jason MacMillan (50:01.132)
To me, it's easier to identify a problem. That's super easy. It's like, like I, I don't, I don't feel good. Okay. Why don't I feel good? Well, I have, I've been eating like, should I have me go into the gym? It's like, okay, well, eat good and go to the gym. Right. But sometimes I feel like the resistance to change gets in my way. A lot of the time I would say, and I know that's common for like a lot of people. It's not, it's not like an easy thing, you know? but I think it starts with like, yeah, I think it has to be, I think too, a lot of it has to come from within the individual, right? We can't like,
Lisa (50:20.032)
Yeah.
Jason MacMillan (50:30.806)
We can't carry people along. Unfortunately, I wish we can do that, especially when it comes to recovery. I wish I could just give people willingness and give them desperation because I don't want them to die and I want them to get this. like we just do our part and that's it, know, unfortunately, right? And it's funny because like people with substance use disorders is like, far as, know, Lisa, you can probably speak to this, but it's like, you know, go into, they end up finding their way into recovery, whatever that looks like. And you have somebody tell them like, okay, if you don't do this and this and this, you're probably going to die.
You know, and it's like, well, how long do you think, do you like, how long can I hang on for? And it's like, no, no. think I got this because you were talking about the diabetes thing, right? Like we're going to take the insulin or whatever, but it's like, okay, here's your insulin. So probably going to save your life being, you know, recovery. it's like, no, like I got this from here. Right. And that was me too. I literally had somebody say, if you don't do this based on your history, you're probably going to die. And my thinking was so fucking insane that I started like negotiating that.
Do know what I mean in questioning it? It's fucking wild. Yeah.
Lisa (51:30.394)
Mm hmm. Yeah. Yep. It's true, like that objectivity, right? And being on the outside of something. I mean, I feel like I experienced that all the time at work, right? It's just like, yeah, I'll see people and I'm like, like, this is really, really, really bad. Like, we got to do something and they will they'll minimize it, they'll justify it, they'll, you know, project it. It's and it's, I sit there and yeah, there's only so much you can do, right? Until the person is ready.
Jason MacMillan (51:47.99)
Mm -hmm.
Jason MacMillan (51:53.76)
Mm -hmm.
Jason MacMillan (51:59.375)
Yeah, yeah, try not to like and again, I'm pretty I Hear all sorts of shit and all sorts of excuses. I think I just went on one of my Facebook rants about it like, okay So people end up they come in they come in let's just say they end up in it in you know Of the rooms of a or NA or CA right? super broken
Lisa (52:00.294)
yeah.
Lisa (52:10.838)
Hahaha
Jason MacMillan (52:21.1)
super desperate, like they're gonna die, they were homeless, they were committing crimes, they haven't eaten in fucking four days, they haven't slept. Come in there begging for help, crawl in there literally, and then it's like okay, like there's some fucking requirement and these are the things that you need to do if you want to stay clean and sober and have an amazing life. Fuck that, I don't wanna do, I don't wanna pray, I don't wanna meditate, I don't wanna go to meetings. It's just like, well, you just said you were willing to do anything. And I was that person, and it's like,
Lisa (52:48.577)
Yeah.
Chuck/Chris (52:49.381)
but it's that addict brain, right? You get two days removed from the situation and you immediately, I think the minute you're out of the situation, the minimizing starts and then it's on a sliding scale from there. just continues until you're right back.
Jason MacMillan (52:52.044)
Totally! yeah! Yeah!
Jason MacMillan (52:59.69)
Yeah, you can't well Totally. Yeah, and it's like we think we know better, right? I think I still know better today The reality is like I don't but it's like we and it's like I think there's like an attitude of like defiance as well If you can't tell me like what to do and I know best and it's like well If we really knew best we wouldn't be here asking for help, you know, and it's like look at your life is like pretty fucked right? Totally I can't too bad. Yeah
Lisa (53:00.768)
Hmm.
Chuck/Chris (53:19.925)
Yeah, yeah, of course. You can quickly lose sight of that though, right? Very, very quickly lose sight of it.
Lisa (53:26.358)
And I think that's part of what also for me, right, speaks to capacity and somebody with active addiction is that contradiction. It's just like, but like you just said this and now you're saying like, you know, when someone has capacity to make a decision, usually they get information, they weigh it out, they make a decision and then their planning is in accordance with all the things they've said. But somebody with substance use disorder,
Jason MacMillan (53:33.196)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Jason MacMillan (53:50.07)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Lisa (53:54.39)
their behaviors and their plans contradict all the things they're telling you are wrong every step of the way. And so it's just like, you know.
Jason MacMillan (54:01.696)
Yeah. Well, this.
Chuck/Chris (54:02.509)
Absolutely. A funny thing I've been experiencing lately, I can interrupt with some of my own shit here for a second. If you remember Lisa back when I was still in Calgary, one of the things that I talked about quite often was the closest I'd come to relapse, or at least the thought of relapse was the idea that I could go back and just self -medicate for the ADHD when it got to be too much. We talked about that. Now, even now, I live a pretty great life.
Jason MacMillan (54:07.52)
Yeah, yeah, go ahead.
Jason MacMillan (54:23.02)
Mm
Chuck/Chris (54:31.981)
I live this calm life. I'm in Thailand. I have my dog. Very serene. I live 10 minutes from a really busy beach, but everything around me is calm and serene. I live in the country, but I live close to the beach and everything is great. Do know what I miss the most now? It's the fucking chaos. It's the thing like it is, and Jason, I'm sure you can relate to that. And at least I'm sure you've seen plenty of it, right? I miss it so much. I miss turning a dime into a dollar.
Lisa (54:48.876)
I was, I was, yeah.
Chuck/Chris (55:01.429)
I miss the constant hustle, the grind, the people, the people, right? Because you're always surrounded in people and weird shit happening, but it was sometimes entertaining and sometimes scary. And somehow I miss that, right? And even now, so it's, yeah, it's over time, you very quickly lose sight of it. And I don't know that if I was in Calgary or Regina or whatever still, that I would be easily avoiding that. I think it would take a lot of work for me.
Lisa (55:03.424)
A Hustle.
Jason MacMillan (55:21.63)
Mm.
Chuck/Chris (55:30.797)
to not get back into it. I'm sure it wouldn't start with using, but it would probably end with using. That want of, you lose sight of what it was like and you start to glorify it in your own head. I remember having stacks of money, more than I remember being fucking taken hostage and thinking I was gonna die. If you can imagine somehow that has happened. So go ahead, at least that's you're gonna say.
Lisa (55:37.858)
Hmm. Yeah.
Jason MacMillan (55:39.948)
Mm
Lisa (55:43.872)
And two, when you spend. Yeah.
Lisa (55:55.904)
And even, know, like it's to do with the amount of time you spend in that state of being. And so, you know, if you spend a large part of your life living in a state of chaos, then chaos is actually comfortable for people, right? It's like if you take a child, a child who grows up in a chaotic home environment, whether it's substances or domestic violence or abuse of some kind, they will grow up. And part of the repetitive pattern of continuing to
create drama in their lives and in their relationships is that that's where they're comfortable. And why? Because they grew up that way. And so, you know, when things are calm and serene, it can be really uncomfortable for people who are accustomed to living in chaos.
Chuck/Chris (56:38.773)
off, off putting, right? I don't even know if uncomfortable is the right word, because that is comfortable, right? Like you're comfortable, but you just don't feel it's off putting almost, you know, like kind of like doesn't feel natural, I guess, right? You know, and then there's that, of course, there's some part of the addict brain that says you don't deserve this life, right? And so somewhere deep seated shit is happening and you know, you're going to wish and burn it all to the ground, right? Which is my pattern anyway, right? And I think Jason from
Lisa (56:44.214)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa (56:49.322)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa (56:58.722)
Mm
Chuck/Chris (57:08.865)
What I understand about your story is pretty clear pattern as well, right? Do well, let's get the magic kerosene out. Let's fuck with that, all right?
Jason MacMillan (57:15.17)
Mm
Lisa (57:15.284)
And the other thing I would like put to you is like, so there might be the missing, the chaos, but is there also just the fact that maybe there's loneliness and that there's an awareness that substances will numb out the loneliness? Right?
Chuck/Chris (57:26.721)
yeah, massively.
Absolutely there is. absolutely. I've been, and this is not something I've said out loud to a single soul before now, but the last three months, I don't think a day's gone by where I haven't thought about getting high. Right? It's, I'm in a place, I'm in a healthy place. The fact that I just said that out loud tells me that I'm in a pretty good place. Cause if, if I wasn't, we all know that I wouldn't be saying it out loud. I would be thinking it and planning, right? But there hasn't been a single day, right?
where it's somewhere in the back of my mind, it's like, fuck it'd be nice to be high, because I am alone. you know, might want to address that one, hey, it. But yeah, yeah.
Lisa (58:04.546)
Hmm.
Lisa (58:12.172)
But that's the whole thing, right? Is that when those thoughts are there, it's exploring for yourself where they come from, right? And it's like, well, I'm used to chaos, so this feels boring, or I'm lonely, or like understanding what those drivers are, because if you can identify them, then you can try to do something about them.
Chuck/Chris (58:20.215)
Yeah.
Chuck/Chris (58:24.909)
look like you.
Chuck/Chris (58:31.873)
Well, and that last Christmas, I fortunately... I'm sure you remember this, but I was in a really bad... I was not in good place a year ago. Well, whatever, almost a year ago now. And I was thinking about having a drink, smoking a joint, it's all over the place, it's party land, Thailand, right? But then when I came out of that funk, that depressive state, don't know if depression would be the right diagnosis, but certainly a depressive state, when I came out of that a couple of months later...
It was, and I was fortunately, I could, I was insightful about my own shit enough to say, I don't feel like having a drink. I don't feel like smoking a joint because I'm not, cause I'm, feeling good. So now I can see that. Right. I can see that. So when I'm thinking about getting high, it's because something else in my life isn't going well and I need to address that. So I'm not thinking about getting high. Right. So that I was fortunately that experience played out the way that it did.
Jason MacMillan (59:26.359)
Mm.
Chuck/Chris (59:30.251)
and I didn't end up doing something that I would regret down the road. And it really allowed me to go back now and just remember that, wait a minute, when you feel like this, you don't feel like this when things are good. You don't do that. So let's improve the things. know, right. Jason, it looks like you're being rather insightful. So we'll get some thoughts about you on that before we head into Gratitudes, because we're at the hour mark. So yeah.
Lisa (59:40.748)
Mm
Jason MacMillan (59:53.974)
Just to echo what you're saying, Chuck, I know for myself, a lot of the dangerous places for me to be is when it was also the highs and when things are going great. You know, and what not better way to celebrate to make this better, you know? So yeah, but definitely like, yeah, I can relate to that.
Chuck/Chris (01:00:04.045)
Yeah, right. Absolutely. Yeah. 40 ,000 downloads this month. Fuck yeah, let's celebrate. I deserve it. That's such a cliche thing to say, right? I've gone this long. deserve it, but it's.
Lisa (01:00:05.186)
Chris has said that so many times, yeah.
Jason MacMillan (01:00:19.276)
What's like pretty insane is like, like I'm going to burn my life down because like things are going great, right? And like, it's, yeah. Yeah.
Chuck/Chris (01:00:28.726)
Yeah, absolutely, Lisa, do you have any final thoughts before we get into Daily Gratitudes?
Lisa (01:00:29.164)
Yeah.
Lisa (01:00:37.248)
No, just I'm, I just thank you, Jason, for being vocal and sharing about this stuff, because I don't think it's talked. This isn't my gratitude, I have another gratitude. This is my pre gratitude. But I, you know, I don't think that it's talked about often enough, like
Chuck/Chris (01:00:43.991)
Okay, that's a gratitude. I didn't introduce the gratitudes yet. can't fucking... Okay, okay, my bad. I'm sorry you're right. I'm wrong, it'll never happen again. Okay.
Lisa (01:01:02.486)
You know, we'll often say that there's no one solution to addiction in terms of, you know, harm reduction and residential and all these things. But I don't think that even we talk about enough the fact that, you know, one person's recovery journey is not going to be single solutioned, you know. So whether that's like your meetings and your private therapist and maybe it's group therapy and maybe it's a psychiatrist and maybe it's treating your testosterone and maybe it's being on an antidepressant and
Jason MacMillan (01:01:06.412)
Mm
Lisa (01:01:32.214)
Like there's so many pieces to it and we don't really talk explicitly about that part of it. And today I still, like I said, I still have patients tell me I'm afraid to tell my sponsor or I'm afraid to be open at a meeting that I've been diagnosed with an anxiety disorder and they want to treat me for it. And so to know that you may bring that up in your own meetings and the...
gift that is to the people in your meeting, the fact that you'll share about it on your Facebook page or social media where people, you know, it can be shared even more broadly than in the than in a meeting that you're sitting in. I do think that that's a real gift to people. So I'm just I love having you here and but I also I'm just thankful that you're doing that.
Chuck/Chris (01:02:18.123)
kidding, right? I'm kidding. Well said, Lisa. Well said. Before we get into the gratitude, there's a message that I do want to bring into every episode that I remember to bring it into, Lisa, and that comes from you over some things you said in our last recording. If anybody out there is struggling, reach out, right? Reach out. Just reach out. I do my own monologue and that's great, but I think about, you know, yeah, if you're struggling, just remember to reach out, you know, if you're listening to this right now.
Jason MacMillan (01:02:20.62)
Thanks Lisa.
Chuck/Chris (01:02:48.933)
It's just too important. If you've relapsed, tell somebody. Tell somebody and your people will come. They will come. I've watched that reel I made of you, Lisa, here. The one you released the other day, yesterday, I A hundred times and every time I watch it I tear up, still. Because I know what drove that conversation.
Jason MacMillan (01:02:54.963)
Mm
Mm
Jason MacMillan (01:03:07.148)
Hmm.
Chuck/Chris (01:03:14.335)
Anyway, let's shift focus onto something more positive. That's my favorite part of the show, the daily gratitudes. Jason, what you got for some gratitude today?
Jason MacMillan (01:03:24.302)
Hmm. It's funny cuz I fucking write these down and then
Chuck/Chris (01:03:30.039)
That's just thinking like you fucking know you've been coming on for a week and a half, bro. Like you don't have fucking gratitude ready. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.
Lisa (01:03:34.217)
Hahaha!
Jason MacMillan (01:03:36.298)
I feel like I've exhausted, I didn't exhaust him, but I just already wrote down a pretty long list. But yeah, I'm just grateful for the simple things. I'm just grateful to be alive today. Grateful to recovery, to help spread the, carry the message and let people know that there's help out there. I'm grateful for my family.
Jason MacMillan (01:03:57.826)
grateful for, I'm actually I'm grateful for like to have gratitude go with that one.
Chuck/Chris (01:04:05.485)
That's a new one. I don't think we've heard that one, right? Yeah. Good. Lisa, what are you grateful for today?
Lisa (01:04:13.058)
so my dad rode his motorbike out to visit my brother. so he's out there at the moment and yeah, you know what mean? He's been riding forever, but I'm always a little bit nervous, you know, cause it's like bikes, you know, even if you're the most safe bike rider in the world, it's like, you know, it's just your, it's riskier.
Chuck/Chris (01:04:24.811)
last trip of the year kind of thing, I guess.
Lisa (01:04:43.644)
And so he made it. So I'm grateful for that. He's getting to spend time with my brother and I'm grateful for that. And I'm grateful, Jason, that you're here. I'm grateful that you asked for help. I can tell you that I would be really, really sad if that had gone differently. And so, yeah, maybe it's a bit selfish, but I'm grateful that you asked for help and that you're
You're still here.
Chuck/Chris (01:05:16.553)
I would be remiss if I didn't echo that. not just grateful that you're here, grateful that you're here saying the things that you are. Right. And that you're, you know, that I think it's a really important message. And as I said earlier in this recording, I think if that is the hill you found to plant your flag, it's a, it's a great place to do that. And it's a great message to carry. you know, if, if you're going to be passionate about something, that's a great thing to be passionate about. So thank you.
Thank you for that. I'm also grateful, I don't know if you saw my post. Often I sit and I think about things. So a year and a half ago I started this platform. I've got a Windows 7 laptop, no microphone, no headphones. About the same amount of knowledge about what to do. And then the other day I spent money I probably shouldn't have spent. Mom, if you're listening, I'm probably going to be calling you.
Fuck. On an upgrade to the studio here, you know, some lighting and whatever. So I got my green screen thing back behind me here. But I think about the sponsorship that I've had financially and personally, right? Though not 12 step sponsorship, but the amazing people in my life that over a year and a half that I've gotten to a point where like that's what I'm spending my money on now. It's not crack. It's like some lighting for this.
virtual studio thing and I'm just so very, very grateful to all of them. One of which is of course, you know, there's a lot, but one of which is Devo, know, Devin McGuire in the early days of the show who committed a monthly sponsorship long before there was any value in it for him. And without him, I don't know that the show would be where it is today. Right? So, and my dog's making weird noises. Anyway, I'm also grateful to every single person who continues to like, comment, share, watch. Click all the buttons down at the bottom.
Every time you do these things, you're keeping me living my best life. And my best life is to continue making a humble living, spreading the message, and the message is this. If you're in active addiction right now, today could be the day. Today could be the day that you start a lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call into detox, pray, go to church. I don't care. Do whatever it is you have to do to get that journey started, because it is so much better than the alternative. If you have a loved one who's suffering an addiction right now, just take the time to listen to this episode. If you just take one more minute out of your day and text that person, let them know they're loved. Use the words.
Lisa (01:07:39.744)
You are love.
Jason MacMillan (01:07:41.462)
You are
Chuck/Chris (01:07:44.097)
That little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings it back.
Shattered Stigma
Yatra
Morning Cup
