280 TIA & KELLY - SUPPORTING FAMILY MEMBERS

[00:00:00] One thing led to another, they both, you know, got drunk and punched on and my son stabbed his father.

[00:00:05] So that short clip was Kelly, she's one of our two guests today, the other one being Tia. Both are from Australia and they administer a group called Drug Addiction Family Support Australia.

[00:00:14] Now, right from the very beginning, supporting the loved ones of people who suffer an addiction has been kind of a core fundamental for us at the Ashes to Awesome for all sorts of different reasons.

[00:00:23] And we get into that into this episode as to why that has been such a big focus for us.

[00:00:27] I think it's really important that we support the loved ones of people. And I think that's the best way that we have at Ashes to Awesome, to ultimately support the people that are suffering an addiction.

[00:00:36] Anyway, listen, the title sponsor for today's episode is the Yatra Trauma Center located in Krabi Thailand, here where I reside.

[00:00:41] And for any of you that are new to the platform, that's where I started my healing journey when I came to Thailand.

[00:00:46] I was fortunate enough to experience their residential treatment program. They treat trauma, all sorts of trauma.

[00:00:50] Quite often that means treating addiction through the lens of trauma. And for me, that was very much the case.

[00:00:55] It completely changed my life. They offer a variety of different therapies, a whole bunch of different activities throughout your stay there that all lend itself to that trauma informed therapy that you're getting.

[00:01:05] Absolutely amazing. Completely changed my life. So if you'd like to know more about them, you can visit our website at a2apodcast.com slash trauma.

[00:01:12] And there you'll find a whole bunch of episodes that my co-host for this episode, Mike Miller has guested on and learn more about them, get their contact info as well.

[00:01:19] So I hope you enjoy the episode and thanks for, thanks for supporting.

[00:01:22] Hello everybody. Watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds. Welcome to another episode of the Ashes to Awesome podcast.

[00:01:27] I'm your host, Chuck Pooflange checking in from Krabi Thailand.

[00:01:31] My co-host for tonight is my good friend and all sorts of different titles.

[00:01:37] Mike Miller, who's also in Krabi Thailand. It's a very rare thing to happen on the show.

[00:01:41] So how are you doing today, Mike?

[00:01:43] I'm good. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:46] Good.

[00:01:46] Happy to be here.

[00:01:47] Before we get into introducing our two guests that are on with us today, Mike, could I get you just to do the typical 60 to 90 second about who you are and what you're doing out here in Krabi?

[00:01:58] Do my best to keep it that short.

[00:02:00] Sure. Yeah, I own and operate founder, clinical director of Yatra Trauma Treatment Center, where we treat all kinds of presentations of trauma, including substance use disorders.

[00:02:16] And we treat that through treating the lens of trauma in personal recovery, been cleaned for over 21 years.

[00:02:22] And that's me basically.

[00:02:24] Wow. That was a condensed version. I'm impressed.

[00:02:28] There's so much more to Mike than that, but that was great.

[00:02:32] It's great.

[00:02:34] And of course, our two guests are both in Australia.

[00:02:36] So again, people that share sunlight and dark with us, which is another rare thing to happen for me as most of our guests are on the other side of the world.

[00:02:44] First up, we have Kelly.

[00:02:46] How are you doing today, Kelly?

[00:02:47] Good. Thanks.

[00:02:47] Thanks. So, yep, I'm here from Australia and started the family addiction support group and with the help of Tia.

[00:02:57] Thank you, Tia.

[00:02:59] So, yeah, I have never had an addiction.

[00:03:02] I've just watched my son ride the roller coaster of addiction and being there to support him the whole way and still supporting him while he's in prison, but currently on the Suboxone program.

[00:03:14] So, yeah.

[00:03:16] Yeah.

[00:03:17] We'll talk, obviously, we'll talk more about that.

[00:03:19] But before we get into all of that, I'd like to introduce our second guest, Tia, who is also in Australia.

[00:03:26] How are you doing today, Tia?

[00:03:27] Hi, everyone.

[00:03:28] Yeah, down under, mate.

[00:03:31] Yeah, so my name is Tia.

[00:03:33] Tia.

[00:03:34] I am an admin on the drug family addiction support group Australia.

[00:03:39] I was in addiction for 28 plus years, six years off the hard drugs now, two years off alcohol and cannabis.

[00:03:48] And I'm able to shed a bit of light and insight to the family members on Kelly's group about what, you know, is inside kind of the addict's mind from my own perspective and experience.

[00:04:03] I also have a son that's entrapped in addictions.

[00:04:07] Yeah, that brings that into light.

[00:04:11] I also do support work for the Australian Any Ice campaign.

[00:04:14] And we run educational workshops and a buddy peer mentorship program to help those that are still suffering.

[00:04:23] Okay, great, great.

[00:04:25] It's funny.

[00:04:26] Of course, I don't, I'm not the parent or I'm the cousin of a couple of people who suffered addiction or have suffered an addiction.

[00:04:33] We've lost two or three of those right now.

[00:04:35] But the same thing you said to you, I found that I was able to connect with family members almost better than I think sometimes than other people that are in recovery or in active addiction.

[00:04:48] And I think for the same reasons that you've like, same way that you you're talking about, just offer some kind of insight from this side of it and what that's like.

[00:04:56] Right.

[00:04:56] And I found that early on in my content creation kind of journey.

[00:05:01] So for some of the same reasons.

[00:05:03] So with that, with that said, for those, anybody that's new to the platform, and I guess you guys coming from Australia, we will have some new listeners.

[00:05:11] I'm Chuck for the sake of the show.

[00:05:13] Chris in real life, you can call me whatever you want.

[00:05:16] 20 some odd years in active addiction.

[00:05:18] Coming up on two years, 21st of this month that I've been sober.

[00:05:23] Yeah.

[00:05:23] So I'm a podcast host now and living in Krabi, Thailand.

[00:05:27] I actually came out here to experience the Yatra Center with Mike and what they do there, their residential treatment program.

[00:05:32] That treating the trauma really changed my life.

[00:05:36] So, and I've been here for a year on the 31st of this month.

[00:05:40] So, yeah.

[00:05:41] Yeah.

[00:05:43] Beautiful.

[00:05:43] Anyway.

[00:05:44] Anyway, who wants to go first?

[00:05:48] Who do we got here?

[00:05:51] We'll go in the same order.

[00:05:52] We'll start with you, Kelly.

[00:05:53] So, Kelly, you mentioned that your son's in prison.

[00:05:57] Yeah.

[00:05:57] One of the first things that comes to my mind when you say that is, is that a relief?

[00:06:03] I'm going to let you kind of talk more about your story, obviously, right?

[00:06:05] But whenever I hear a parent say that their child is in prison, I think, but, oh, you know, because of the lifestyle that can kind of come along sometimes.

[00:06:14] Sometimes it's a bit of a break, right?

[00:06:17] So, yeah.

[00:06:19] I think this might be his last time, hopefully, from, you know, what he said to me and stuff.

[00:06:25] And just he's a lot different.

[00:06:27] And a bigger head sentence, I think, is really, you know, being such a young age has, I think, scared him a bit.

[00:06:34] You know, he doesn't remember his life in there.

[00:06:35] I think he'll come home and slowly come off the suboxone and live a normal life, I hope.

[00:06:46] Yeah.

[00:06:47] Hey, just a quick interruption for the all-too-important PSA.

[00:06:50] Today's PSA is brought to you by ARC, that's the Alberta Adolescent Recovery Centre, located in Alberta, Canada, where they are treating adolescents with severe SUD.

[00:06:59] Quite often that means parents are mandating their children into treatment.

[00:07:02] And they're catching this early, they're doing amazing things there.

[00:07:06] It's a whole family experience as a treatment program.

[00:07:09] And I am 100% in support of all the work that they're doing there.

[00:07:13] If you want to learn more, you can visit their website at arc.ab.ca.

[00:07:17] And in the meantime, here's a PSA.

[00:07:19] Hey, what's up?

[00:07:20] This is Chad from The Valued Asian Show.

[00:07:22] I don't carry a bag around that doesn't have at least one of these or one of these in it.

[00:07:27] And I carry them because people are dying and dead addicts can't recover.

[00:07:31] So I don't care how you're finding recovery.

[00:07:34] I don't care what fellowship you belong to.

[00:07:36] I don't care if you're using harm reduction.

[00:07:38] Let's take death out of the equation.

[00:07:40] Let's stop people from dying.

[00:07:42] More love, less judge.

[00:07:45] Peace.

[00:07:50] Yeah.

[00:07:51] Yeah.

[00:07:52] Do you want to share with us any of your journey, kind of what the days were like before you went to prison this last time?

[00:07:58] Yeah.

[00:07:59] Yeah.

[00:07:59] So obviously he got addicted to ice at 14 and I was just always like, why, how, you know, what have I done wrong as a parent?

[00:08:07] And I just questioned myself constantly.

[00:08:09] And it wasn't until the 23rd December 2021 that he came up with my brother at sexist old for two years of his life.

[00:08:23] And three weeks later, he met up with his father who wasn't really a, you know, a good role model.

[00:08:29] And he, at that time, I was just sort of letting him find his own way, you know.

[00:08:35] And I said to him, don't drink with your father.

[00:08:38] Like, just don't drink with him.

[00:08:39] And one thing led to another.

[00:08:41] They both, you know, got drunk and punched on.

[00:08:44] And my son stabbed his father.

[00:08:47] And so he was in induced coma for a week.

[00:08:53] And then, yeah, we got a 60-year head sentence.

[00:08:56] We didn't really think it was going to be that bad.

[00:09:00] But, yeah, thinking now, you know, he's just applied for parole.

[00:09:05] Fingers crossed he gets it.

[00:09:06] And I just think now, you know what, a big head sentence is obviously what he needed, I think.

[00:09:11] Maybe.

[00:09:12] How old he was when he was charged?

[00:09:16] 19.

[00:09:18] Yeah, when he was charged.

[00:09:20] So, oh, 20 when he was charged.

[00:09:24] Yeah.

[00:09:25] Okay.

[00:09:25] So he turned 21 in prison.

[00:09:27] Yeah.

[00:09:27] So he's 21 now, nearly 22.

[00:09:30] Yeah.

[00:09:31] So just turned 21.

[00:09:33] 20, sorry, yeah.

[00:09:35] That is a lot.

[00:09:38] That's a lot for everybody there, right?

[00:09:40] Like, I can hear Mike's brain right now working at, like, just being the trauma guy, right?

[00:09:47] I could just, like, where do you even start with this?

[00:09:50] Mike, do you got any comments you want to make on all of this right now?

[00:09:54] Yeah.

[00:09:56] I mean, it sounds incredibly difficult for you, but obviously for your son, it makes

[00:10:03] sense.

[00:10:03] Like, kind of the penny dropped when you talked about, like, the sexual assault stuff.

[00:10:06] I was like, okay, well, there's the sort of underlying issue that leads to self-medicating,

[00:10:11] et cetera.

[00:10:13] I do, you know, I've been guilty on this show.

[00:10:15] I've said a lot of times, like, I can be quite sort of, like, single focused, like, quite

[00:10:21] myopic where I go, oh, it's everything's trauma.

[00:10:23] And then eventually, as, you know, I've been working in this field for 20 plus years, as you

[00:10:30] start to unravel people's stories, there's usually something back there.

[00:10:35] It might not be, like, sort of the sexual assault stuff, but there's always something back there

[00:10:40] that's adverse experiences that can contribute to it.

[00:10:44] And I think one of the things that gets lost in that is that him going to prison is also

[00:10:50] probably quite traumatic for you.

[00:10:52] This whole experience would be really traumatic for you.

[00:10:55] It was awful.

[00:10:56] It's awful.

[00:10:57] But I just think now, you know, I've just got to be there for him.

[00:11:01] And, you know, once he gets home and then he'll find justice once he gets home with the

[00:11:06] other stuff.

[00:11:06] He was seeking justice, but then that happened.

[00:11:09] And then, you know, being in prison, you don't feel like statements and stuff, do you?

[00:11:16] So wait till he comes home.

[00:11:17] Yeah.

[00:11:18] Yeah.

[00:11:20] So much happening there.

[00:11:22] Yeah.

[00:11:22] I guess we'll kind of do this in tidbits.

[00:11:25] I do have some more things I want to talk to you about, Kelly, obviously, but we'll loop

[00:11:30] Tia into the conversation here.

[00:11:31] Tia, do you kind of want to give a bit of your background, your story, as it were, or,

[00:11:35] you know, go from there?

[00:11:37] Yeah.

[00:11:38] Basically, I picked up substances at a young age.

[00:11:41] It was my way of escaping.

[00:11:44] I was out of home by the time I was 14.

[00:11:47] And, you know, it started with alcohol, just the binge drinking.

[00:11:53] I picked up marijuana when I was about 12, and that soon became a habit.

[00:11:59] So I was a chronic marijuana smoker.

[00:12:03] I would smoke daily.

[00:12:06] I gave up for a little bit when I had my first children at the age of, I fell pregnant

[00:12:11] when I was 18.

[00:12:12] I had my first child when I was 19.

[00:12:14] And, yes, as I always managed to get a little bit of time without any substances.

[00:12:21] I should probably add, by the time I was 16, I was on speed, acid.

[00:12:26] It just progressed, you know.

[00:12:29] My issues with substances progressed, as did my addiction.

[00:12:33] And, yes, as I would manage to get a bit of time up and then pick up again.

[00:12:39] And it was basically a coping mechanism.

[00:12:43] It's how I coped.

[00:12:45] That wanting to escape reality and just, you know, I didn't know any other way to deal with

[00:12:53] things.

[00:12:53] By the time I was my early 20s, I was married quite young.

[00:12:58] I was married at 19 after I had my first child.

[00:13:02] We quickly had three children.

[00:13:05] And after the third child was born, our marriage broke up after he was diagnosed with cystic fibrosis.

[00:13:15] And it kind of tore our, you know, union apart there.

[00:13:19] And I picked up the drink again.

[00:13:22] And from the drink, I went to heroin, which is something that I thought I would never do.

[00:13:28] And I've been using.

[00:13:29] And I did that right up until I was about 29, 30, with three young children in tow, you know.

[00:13:40] And then I got on the methadone program to get me off the heroin for about, I was on the methadone

[00:13:46] for three and a half years.

[00:13:48] And I done a right coming off that.

[00:13:52] I weaned off slowly.

[00:13:53] I thought I had it.

[00:13:55] But it wasn't long after.

[00:13:57] And I picked up methamphetamine.

[00:13:59] So I had been introduced to the ice, you know, in between the heroin years.

[00:14:05] And probably when I was using speed as a teenager, I just didn't know, you know.

[00:14:11] And yeah, so my 30s, I kind of thought, well, I won't pick up the heroin again because

[00:14:16] that was so hard to get off.

[00:14:18] I'll just use a bit of ice.

[00:14:19] That won't be so bad.

[00:14:21] And it's kind of, that was, that was my insanity, you know.

[00:14:26] Always swapping the witch for the bitch.

[00:14:29] It was, you know, always picking the lesser of the two evils.

[00:14:33] And it wasn't until, you know, I had my youngest two children removed from me.

[00:14:40] I got in a domestic violence situation.

[00:14:43] We were both using.

[00:14:46] I had my younger two children removed.

[00:14:48] And I found NA.

[00:14:51] And that was, that was my saving grace.

[00:14:55] I then had 12-step meetings to go to numerous times a day.

[00:15:01] It kept me safe.

[00:15:02] I was blessed to be in a place where there was multiple meetings daily.

[00:15:07] At that stage, I was in a women's refuge.

[00:15:12] You know, it could have broken me and it did for the first part, having my children removed.

[00:15:18] 16 years, I'd been nothing but a mother, you know.

[00:15:22] Although I'd had my substance abuse issues, I kind of justified myself by saying, well, I'm not the type that pumps my kids off.

[00:15:29] You know, I'm always there.

[00:15:31] I've just got to use substances to deal with everyday life, you know.

[00:15:36] And it wasn't until, yeah, that moment that was my rock bottom.

[00:15:43] And I had to switch it in my mind to think, okay, well, this is a positive.

[00:15:49] I can actually unstack and unpack some of the stuff that I'd been carrying with me all my life.

[00:15:55] It was the first time that with a bit of maturity, I was able to deal with some of the experiences I'd had as a child, things like that.

[00:16:07] And, yeah, I will always be grateful to NA for leading the way with that.

[00:16:14] And it wasn't long after I got my children back.

[00:16:18] Then he was 11 at the time.

[00:16:20] It was my 11 and my two-year-old that were taken.

[00:16:25] And, you know, it ended up being a positive thing.

[00:16:28] Like, I wasn't stable.

[00:16:31] I was obviously, you know, in a bad situation.

[00:16:34] And my kids deserved better.

[00:16:36] And ultimately, I deserved better.

[00:16:38] I just had to realize that.

[00:16:41] So, yeah, when I got my 11-year-old back, he was taken from me as a sweet, innocent child.

[00:16:49] And when he came back, he was an angry young man.

[00:16:53] And he just...

[00:16:54] So, if I could interrupt.

[00:16:56] Yeah, you're right.

[00:16:56] Were they in foster care or care with family for that time?

[00:16:59] So, I had one stuck in foster care and I had one go to his father, the one with the cystic fibrosis.

[00:17:06] So, while he was with his father, my ex-husband was actually using at the time.

[00:17:13] So, obviously, it wasn't an ideal situation.

[00:17:17] And my son started using himself.

[00:17:20] So, by the time I got him back, it was just this explosion of a young man.

[00:17:26] And I was in shock, you know.

[00:17:28] He started going out, stealing cars, just running amok.

[00:17:34] And I relapsed.

[00:17:36] My relapse at that stage was pure punishment because I wasn't coping with the son.

[00:17:43] And I felt guilt and shame that, you know, had I not been in the situation that my children were removed from me,

[00:17:51] then, you know, my son wouldn't be where he is now.

[00:17:56] So, basically, from that moment, that relapse went on for about 12 months before I pulled myself up.

[00:18:03] And it's been then since I stopped using quite many hard drugs.

[00:18:09] That, again, was methamphetamine, which is kind of the backbone for what I do now with the anti-ice campaign.

[00:18:17] That, you know, I really feel that, you know, I had an addiction to more.

[00:18:23] So, it didn't matter what substance it was.

[00:18:27] But the ice was the most destructive to myself, my family, the people around me.

[00:18:33] I think that's a pretty common theme, though, too, Tia.

[00:18:36] And I assume, I probably shouldn't assume, when you say ice, you mean meth, right?

[00:18:41] Yeah.

[00:18:43] Okay.

[00:18:44] Just making sure I assumed as much.

[00:18:46] Yeah.

[00:18:47] That's one of those drugs that just took over the whole world, right?

[00:18:50] Like every civilized or every modern country.

[00:18:56] And the not-so-modern countries, the still-growing countries, it's taken over.

[00:19:02] So, it's not nothing, that's for sure.

[00:19:06] It's a very real problem.

[00:19:08] So, I can see why.

[00:19:10] Yeah, I can see why you say that.

[00:19:12] Yeah.

[00:19:13] Yeah.

[00:19:14] Yeah, so, basically.

[00:19:16] Oh, sorry.

[00:19:17] Yeah, sorry.

[00:19:18] Do you want-

[00:19:18] Oh, I got you off.

[00:19:19] My son's been in-

[00:19:20] No, continue.

[00:19:20] No, no, continue.

[00:19:21] Please do.

[00:19:21] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:19:22] My bad.

[00:19:23] My son's been in and out of juvenile detention.

[00:19:25] And now in jail, which is where he met Kelly's son, which is, you know, quite an interesting

[00:19:32] story how we met.

[00:19:34] Our sons were actually cellmates at the time.

[00:19:36] And my son, having cystic fibrosis and being in the correctional system, it's definitely not

[00:19:44] ideal.

[00:19:46] And, you know, he's not able to keep up his dietary needs.

[00:19:49] So, it's regular hospitalisations, things like that.

[00:19:52] And one time he was in hospital and she had to get a hold of me.

[00:19:56] Her son said, look, can you please ring Marcelli's mum because he's in hospital.

[00:20:02] And we've kind of befriended each other and been friends and, you know, supported each

[00:20:07] other ever since.

[00:20:09] But, yeah, once I told her kind of my story, she said, oh, come on this group and, you know,

[00:20:14] you can give the insight for, you know, what you've been through.

[00:20:20] And, yeah, I agreed wholeheartedly.

[00:20:23] Like, to me, it's a bit of a living amends for what I put my own family through is the fact

[00:20:29] that now I can help other families.

[00:20:30] Of course.

[00:20:31] Of course.

[00:20:32] Right.

[00:20:32] And having so much insight into all the different angles, of course, too, right?

[00:20:37] Yeah.

[00:20:38] Yeah.

[00:20:38] Mike, what do you, you got any questions or comments towards Tia?

[00:20:42] Tia is telling my story a little bit.

[00:20:46] And there's a lot of parallels.

[00:20:47] I mean, it's not uncommon.

[00:20:49] Like, this is why support groups are so valuable to people is that, you know, you stick around

[00:20:55] long enough, you start to hear parts of your story and other people's stuff.

[00:20:58] I started really young.

[00:21:01] You know, the poly drug stuff went from one to another.

[00:21:04] I drew lines in the sand and said, I'll never do that.

[00:21:06] And then ended up doing that.

[00:21:07] I'll never do that.

[00:21:08] I ended up doing it.

[00:21:09] You know, alcohol, cannabis, psychedelics, cocaine, heroin by 19.

[00:21:16] That became my favorite.

[00:21:18] Lots of attempts to get clean, relapses, multiple treatment episodes.

[00:21:23] Lots of that, like, sort of rationalizing and minimizing stuff.

[00:21:26] Oh, I won't use this drug.

[00:21:27] And I will only use that one.

[00:21:28] Or I won't use it in this way.

[00:21:30] Or I'll only use with people.

[00:21:32] I won't use alone.

[00:21:33] Oh, I'll only use alone.

[00:21:34] I won't use with people.

[00:21:35] I changed girlfriends and schools and towns and jobs.

[00:21:39] And, you know, I just, you know, my addiction kept going with me wherever I went.

[00:21:45] And, you know, you had said that you got to unpack some of the stuff from your childhood.

[00:21:50] So then, like, there's the trauma stuff, the adverse childhood experiences.

[00:21:56] And in some ways, I'm so, like, I can relate to you and your story.

[00:22:00] But I also think, like, in some ways, I'm like your son as well.

[00:22:03] My dad was an alcoholic at a young age.

[00:22:06] I started coping with things through using.

[00:22:10] Yeah, I just, I just, there's a lot in your story that I could quite relate to.

[00:22:14] The coping mechanism stuff, you know.

[00:22:16] And you would know from sitting in recovery rooms, people say things like, I, one of the big ones.

[00:22:22] So I'm from Canada.

[00:22:23] In that area, a lot of people would say things like, I just didn't feel comfortable in my own skin.

[00:22:29] And, like, why wouldn't a young person feel comfortable in their skin?

[00:22:33] Like, that isn't for nothing.

[00:22:35] Like, that's a trauma thing to me.

[00:22:37] So, like, a lot, and, you know, people nod a lot when they go, oh, yeah, me too.

[00:22:42] I get that too.

[00:22:42] And it's like, there's the threat of trauma through the whole thing.

[00:22:45] It's like, why did we take it upon ourselves to have to medicate, to use substances to cope, right?

[00:22:52] Is because something wasn't okay, right?

[00:22:54] And I'm not blaming parents or throwing parents.

[00:22:57] You know, it's just, it just is what it is.

[00:22:58] A lot of our parents did the very best job that they could with what they had.

[00:23:01] And somehow my needs weren't getting met.

[00:23:04] And that's just what it was.

[00:23:06] Now, my mom, still to today, so I started using it at 12, got clean at 32.

[00:23:13] I'm 54 in, like, a couple of months.

[00:23:16] And I'm over 20 years clean.

[00:23:18] And my mom still, till today, blames herself for my addiction.

[00:23:22] So, she's got the guilt.

[00:23:24] She's got the remorse.

[00:23:25] She's got all that stuff.

[00:23:26] Meanwhile, I put her on a pedestal like she's my hero.

[00:23:30] Yeah, anyway, there's just a lot of stuff in there that it brought up for me around not just, like, relating to you as someone who used, but relating to your son in some ways.

[00:23:38] I ended up in jail and, you know, all that stuff.

[00:23:40] So, yeah, thank you for sharing that.

[00:23:43] Both of you, actually.

[00:23:44] Thanks for sharing your stories.

[00:23:45] Thanks.

[00:23:46] I don't know what it's like to be a parent.

[00:23:48] And I can only imagine what it's like to be the parent of someone who is incarcerated, who's in addiction.

[00:23:54] You know, that powerless feeling and fear and anxiety must just be so hard for you guys.

[00:24:00] Yeah, right.

[00:24:02] It's one of those things that I think is impossible to relate to.

[00:24:05] Like you said, Mike, we can try and empathize as best we can, but I'm not a parent either.

[00:24:10] So, well, certainly.

[00:24:11] So, for people that are familiar with the platform, a ton of our content has been directed to families.

[00:24:15] And I want to talk more about this because that's the group you guys are, you know, your group.

[00:24:22] So, we'll kind of turn it back to the family thing now that we've kind of got some background about each other out of this.

[00:24:56] And that's, fuck, that's just as real too.

[00:24:59] Right?

[00:24:59] If you're in this constant state of where's my son going to be tomorrow?

[00:25:04] Is he going to be alive?

[00:25:06] Is he going to, you know, is he going to end up in...

[00:25:09] That's the survival mode, most certainly.

[00:25:12] Right?

[00:25:12] And all that might kind of speak to that, how that works somatically within the body.

[00:25:17] Mike, if you want to talk about that and that trauma and how the parallels between them, if you...

[00:25:21] In a more less bastardized way than I would.

[00:25:26] Kind of without going into too much of like a neuroscience lecture.

[00:25:30] You know, when we get...

[00:25:31] When we're stressed.

[00:25:33] So, trauma is traumatic stress.

[00:25:34] Like I'm experiencing something, puts me in that fight or flight, amygdala activation, cortisol, adrenaline, heart rate, blood pressure.

[00:25:42] All this stuff's going up.

[00:25:43] It's stopping digestion.

[00:25:45] It's stopping all kinds of systems that aren't...

[00:25:48] This is survival mode stuff.

[00:25:50] And when I'm in that for a long period of time, it has effects on my immune system.

[00:25:56] Obviously, my nervous system is all jacked up.

[00:25:58] I get sleep disturbances.

[00:26:00] Like this, you know, anxieties, all that kind of stuff.

[00:26:03] And it just has real physical toll on us.

[00:26:07] And I think that...

[00:26:10] I didn't understand that, obviously, when I was using.

[00:26:13] And I lived in a different town than my mother did.

[00:26:16] And the last time that I went to treatment, there was a place that was very kind of hardcore 12-step place.

[00:26:24] You don't get to have any contact with people until you're done a step five.

[00:26:27] So, it was about 35 days until they'd let you have any contact with anyone.

[00:26:31] And I talked to my mom at that point.

[00:26:33] And she said, this is the first time in 10 years I can actually sleep at night.

[00:26:36] Which I had no idea she was experiencing.

[00:26:39] Because I always thought, out of sight, out of mind.

[00:26:43] Which also speaks to a lack of resources for families a lot.

[00:26:48] Because people...

[00:26:49] I've talked to families a lot.

[00:26:50] And they go, it's not my problem.

[00:26:51] It's his problem.

[00:26:52] And then treatment providers look at it that way, too.

[00:26:55] And it's like, oh, well, Tia and Kelly, you're parents.

[00:26:58] But it's not your problem.

[00:26:59] It's your son's problems.

[00:27:00] But that's absolutely not true.

[00:27:01] If you have a son in addiction, you have a big fucking problem.

[00:27:04] Pardon my language, right?

[00:27:06] Yeah.

[00:27:07] And I think that that's...

[00:27:08] I feel like you have to say ever pardon your language to an Australian.

[00:27:10] They're very foul people.

[00:27:11] Yeah.

[00:27:11] From what I can tell you.

[00:27:12] Yeah, no, we're good.

[00:27:14] I have had so many Australian clients.

[00:27:18] I'm doing it more because we're on a podcast.

[00:27:20] And because I'm representing the treatment center.

[00:27:22] Than about offending anyone in the room.

[00:27:26] You get that.

[00:27:27] But yeah, it's...

[00:27:29] But I just think it impacts everyone.

[00:27:33] And then I guess the flip side of that.

[00:27:35] The bright side of that.

[00:27:36] Is that when people enter into recovery.

[00:27:38] It has the same knock-on effect on, you know, untold amount of people around you.

[00:27:43] That benefit from you getting clean as well.

[00:27:46] But that's...

[00:27:47] I'll speak to that specific point, Mike.

[00:27:50] Something I've said more than a couple times on the show.

[00:27:53] So when I'm out using, my mom is stressed.

[00:27:57] Right?

[00:27:58] Like, obviously.

[00:27:59] I don't have to unpack that at all.

[00:28:02] But when I get sober, everyone's proud of me.

[00:28:05] So I'm on this wave.

[00:28:07] And we all know we've heard about it.

[00:28:09] Or experienced it ourselves.

[00:28:10] Right?

[00:28:10] This kind of euphoria of being in recovery.

[00:28:12] And everything's going to be fucking great.

[00:28:15] But my mom is still concerned.

[00:28:18] Right?

[00:28:19] And she won't outwardly portray that to me.

[00:28:21] She'll be happy for me.

[00:28:22] She'll be encouraging.

[00:28:23] She'll do all the things you want this wonderful parent to do.

[00:28:26] That you need this wonderful parent to do.

[00:28:27] But the whole time suppressing this fear.

[00:28:30] This absolute fear.

[00:28:32] Yeah.

[00:28:32] About what happens if.

[00:28:34] Right?

[00:28:35] And then I do.

[00:28:36] I go out.

[00:28:37] And she goes back to that place where she can be openly fucking worried and stressed.

[00:28:41] But me, I'm doing what I love.

[00:28:44] What I've always done with feelings I don't want to feel.

[00:28:46] And I get to numb those feelings.

[00:28:48] And she doesn't get that.

[00:28:49] She doesn't have that luxury of whatever substance numbing her out to it.

[00:28:54] And so she goes through this cycle where at least I break from it when I'm in recovery.

[00:28:58] And I break from it when I'm using.

[00:29:01] And she goes like.

[00:29:02] She's just on the ride the whole damn time.

[00:29:05] And over time, that'll mitigate.

[00:29:08] Right?

[00:29:08] Like given, you know, as the years get the time starts to pile up.

[00:29:11] But I'll tell you right now, if I didn't answer the phone for two or three days when my mom was trying to get in touch with me, you know where her brain's going.

[00:29:18] Yeah.

[00:29:18] Right?

[00:29:18] Like, you know, I experienced that the day before I left for Thailand here, actually.

[00:29:23] When my phone was, I went to go visit a couple of friends.

[00:29:25] My phone died.

[00:29:25] I wasn't really worried about it.

[00:29:27] And mom couldn't get a hold of me for a day and a half.

[00:29:29] Lisa, my other co-host, Dr. Lisa, tried to call me 25 times when my phone was off.

[00:29:35] Right?

[00:29:35] Like 20 times.

[00:29:36] So everyone's stressed out.

[00:29:37] I'm like, what's going on?

[00:29:39] I turned my phone on.

[00:29:41] And yeah, it never goes away for the people that love you.

[00:29:44] Right?

[00:29:45] Not completely, I don't think, anyway.

[00:29:47] Right?

[00:29:48] Yeah.

[00:29:48] No, it doesn't.

[00:29:49] Mike, your mom at 21 and some odd years later, right, is to a point now where if you didn't answer the phone for a couple of days.

[00:29:56] But even then.

[00:29:57] I don't know.

[00:29:58] When I was still living in Canada, at eight years clean, I was having a conversation with my mom and she asked me, how are you doing?

[00:30:05] And I said, oh my God, it's like, you know, I was just going through some stuff.

[00:30:09] And she was like, but you're okay, right?

[00:30:10] Like, and we knew what that unspoken question was, which is like, but you're not going to go use drugs.

[00:30:16] And that was at eight years clean.

[00:30:17] So, you know, you could ask her at 20 plus years, like, has that been alleviated?

[00:30:22] Maybe to a certain degree.

[00:30:24] But I think her biggest fear underlying everything isn't that I'm going to get hit by a car.

[00:30:29] It's that something will happen that will lead me back to using drugs because, you know, you're right.

[00:30:34] She, my mother suffered a lot of the consequences of my using and I got relief from those consequences by using.

[00:30:40] Right?

[00:30:40] Like she got financial consequences.

[00:30:42] She had emotional consequences.

[00:30:45] And I got to sort of numb myself to all of that stuff.

[00:30:48] And she didn't get to do that.

[00:30:49] She was just kind of like, you know, what do they say?

[00:30:51] Like, just kind of raw dog in life.

[00:30:52] You know, like she didn't have any buffer for that.

[00:30:55] Yeah.

[00:30:56] I don't know if it's, I don't know if she ever gets full relief from that.

[00:30:59] And we have two mothers in the room that could probably let us know, like, what that's like.

[00:31:05] I can imagine.

[00:31:06] No kidding.

[00:31:07] Yeah.

[00:31:07] Well, we said at the beginning of the episode, and I'll ask you both, but with a bit more of your history on the table.

[00:31:14] Because your sons are in jail, is it a comfort to you right now?

[00:31:18] Somewhat of a comfort to you.

[00:31:19] No, the drug use is horrendous in there.

[00:31:22] It's terrible.

[00:31:23] I guess so.

[00:31:24] It's really, really bad.

[00:31:25] Yeah, that's, it's the thing, you know, and I often speak up about the justice system here in Australia.

[00:31:32] There's no recovery in jail, you know.

[00:31:35] We are punitive punishment.

[00:31:38] And so even, you know, some of the guards that I've spoken to tell me that the jails are set up as a human containment facility.

[00:31:46] They're not set up for rehabilitation.

[00:31:49] So they don't have access to courses or anything to help them reintegrate back into society.

[00:31:56] We run a revolving door system here.

[00:31:59] And it's really quite sad.

[00:32:00] That's why the rates of recidivism are so high.

[00:32:04] And it's, it is, it's quite sad, you know.

[00:32:09] And then what they've been doing is putting everyone on that has, has substance abuse issues.

[00:32:17] They put them on the suboxone program.

[00:32:20] So we have people going in with an ice habit or, you know, an ice addict going in and they come out with an opioid addiction.

[00:32:27] Yep.

[00:32:28] Definitely.

[00:32:30] Really?

[00:32:30] I don't see how that is harmed in normalization.

[00:32:35] Instead of putting the therapeutic practices in place where we can increase the mental health action within the jails.

[00:32:44] I mean, the way that the jails here deal with prisoners that are suffering from mental health issues.

[00:32:51] And we have a lot, I mean, our jails are full of a lot of people that have mental health issues.

[00:33:00] Because the system out here in community is not good enough.

[00:33:04] People fall between the gaps and they end up being put in, placed in the jail.

[00:33:10] And then when they have the mental health issues in the jail, they are thrown into isolation.

[00:33:16] Which is not proactive for any kind of mental health illness.

[00:33:21] And so it's my son's dual diagnosis.

[00:33:24] Yes.

[00:33:24] So we have the addiction issues.

[00:33:26] We also have the mental health issues.

[00:33:28] And, you know, when he was younger and he was running around stealing the cars, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:33:34] Yes.

[00:33:35] To answer that first original question, I did feel at ease somewhat that he was being locked up in the juvenile detention center.

[00:33:43] But in that juvenile detention center, he went through sexual abuse.

[00:33:48] So, you know, the people that I trusted to keep him in somewhat a safe space ended up abusing that.

[00:33:58] And so then he just impacted on his own traumas.

[00:34:04] And, yeah, we have this situation with my son where he's very much institutionalized.

[00:34:10] He's never out for a great amount of time.

[00:34:15] And when he does get out, he hits the ice again.

[00:34:18] He comes or he gets off the program.

[00:34:20] He hits the ice.

[00:34:21] He stops taking his mental health medication.

[00:34:24] And, yeah, and it's only like, and I'm speaking, you know, I think the longest he has been out for since the age of 12 in total of a, you know, a band of time would be around four months.

[00:34:41] And most of that he was on the run.

[00:34:42] So, you know, this is the justice system in Australia.

[00:34:48] It's not, especially when dealing with youth crimes.

[00:34:53] We are just creating career criminals.

[00:34:55] And, yeah, there's nothing for rehabilitation, reintegration.

[00:35:00] It's devastating.

[00:35:02] No.

[00:35:02] I see.

[00:35:03] Kelly, you were going to say something as well?

[00:35:05] So, yeah, I totally agree with what Tia is saying.

[00:35:09] So, my son went in semi-clean, you know, never used opiates and got an opiate addiction in there and now is on the Suboxone program.

[00:35:22] It's almost unreal.

[00:35:24] Like, it's almost like, no, that can't be real.

[00:35:27] It's hard to believe that you're actually saying the things that you're saying right now.

[00:35:30] And I spoke to a First Nations liaison officer in there and I said, like, is it really this bad?

[00:35:35] Like, what I'm hearing and seeing?

[00:35:37] And she said, you know, 15 years ago, men would come in here to get clean.

[00:35:42] She goes, they're leaving here with addictions now.

[00:35:43] And that's off the record.

[00:35:44] And that's what she said to me, like someone that works at the prison.

[00:35:48] And not just the addiction, like the suicide rate in there is horrendous.

[00:35:53] Like, two, oh, I know one lady who's lost her son to suicide last year in there.

[00:35:58] And another lady who lost her son in there last year as well, you know.

[00:36:03] So it's just, I don't know.

[00:36:05] At the start, I used to think, you know, when he first went in, I don't have to worry about him.

[00:36:09] But then this last time, it was just a whole new ballgame.

[00:36:13] It was, yeah.

[00:36:14] Wow.

[00:36:14] No.

[00:36:15] It's almost like if I wanted to design a system to harm a population, it would be that system.

[00:36:23] It's insane that someone who's not opiate or opioid dependent would be given Suboxone.

[00:36:29] Like, I don't understand the rationale.

[00:36:31] Do they give you a rationale behind that?

[00:36:32] Or is it just to protect people from fentanyl?

[00:36:36] I think that you're getting short.

[00:36:38] The rationale that I get, I actually had a conversation with our local drugs and alcohol person here in town now two days ago.

[00:36:47] So, and what he said to me, the reasoning behind it is that it is so rampant.

[00:36:54] They do the Suboxone strips under the table in the jails.

[00:36:58] So their fear is they're going to be addicted to that anyway.

[00:37:01] So why not put them on the program?

[00:37:03] So that's their way of the harm minimalization, you know.

[00:37:06] But, yeah, to me it was absurd.

[00:37:08] For someone that had come off a methadone program because I had an opioid addiction, I could not get that rationally in my mind how my son can have an ice addiction and then be on the Suboxone program.

[00:37:23] It was just crazy to me, you know.

[00:37:27] It's how minimalization gone crazy, you know.

[00:37:31] Well, to me, again, it sounds quite harmful.

[00:37:34] The big turnaround here, I think, in our country at least, is they privatized majority of the jails.

[00:37:41] So then keeping people in jail became a business.

[00:37:45] Yeah.

[00:37:46] Yeah, your body brokering at that point.

[00:37:48] Yeah, it sounds insane to me.

[00:37:50] As someone who had an opiate dependence for years and years and years, who's worked in the treatment industry or field, whatever you want to call it, I've done a big part of my job was like drug testing people who are like healthcare workers and like all kinds of people in safety sensitive jobs.

[00:38:12] Working with addictions medicine specialists and occupational health medicine specialists, I can't come up with a rationale.

[00:38:20] I actually helped train for the BC College of Physicians and Surgeons doctors in their methadone program.

[00:38:28] And we had a role play where one of the doctors, I got to play an addict, which was funny because it wasn't much of a stretch for me as not being an actor.

[00:38:41] But I had tested positive for cocaine was the sort of role play.

[00:38:46] And to go see this doctor, I was also on methadone.

[00:38:48] That was part of the background of this role play.

[00:38:51] And I had talked to that doctor into upping my dose of methadone.

[00:38:55] And, you know, this is in front of all of the doctors in this program and everything.

[00:39:00] And that guy just got absolutely torn apart by the people running the program because it didn't make sense that someone with a positive for a stimulant would all of a sudden be getting an up dose of methadone.

[00:39:14] And that's what you're telling me the whole prison system down there is doing, which is, yeah, I don't, it doesn't make sense.

[00:39:21] It just does not make sense.

[00:39:22] I want to believe that that's, that's the prisoners lying to get it.

[00:39:26] I want to believe that, right?

[00:39:29] I think the only rationale where it would make sense to be.

[00:39:31] Maybe that's naive on my point.

[00:39:33] Maybe if there, if there was a fentanyl problem and they feel like it might help reduce overdose if someone's already got like an antagonist or an agonist.

[00:39:43] But I'm not sure.

[00:39:44] Like it just, I just don't know.

[00:39:45] But even that's a bit crazy.

[00:39:47] Yeah, it is crazy.

[00:39:49] It's quite rampant in there.

[00:39:51] Even when they're not on the program, you know, people get it in there and then it's just,

[00:39:57] it's a big moneymaker.

[00:39:58] And then it goes from one thing to another when they need to be on the program because,

[00:40:02] you know, parents aren't giving out money or family members aren't giving them money, money, money.

[00:40:06] And then they're getting in debt and it's bad.

[00:40:10] Yeah.

[00:40:10] That just adds one more element of like something to be afraid of when your sons are going in there.

[00:40:17] Yeah.

[00:40:17] And the whole fact that, that there are no programs, like there's no recovery in there or anything.

[00:40:24] No wonder the recidivism rates are so high.

[00:40:27] And I mean, it must leave you feeling like at times, at least losing hope for, for like the society and what we're doing for your sons.

[00:40:36] You know, what, what Australia is doing for your sons.

[00:40:38] It must just be like, yeah, these are just kids that are in pain and hurting and need some help.

[00:40:43] And they're just getting, don't get me wrong.

[00:40:45] I'm not giving people a pass on like bad behavior and all of that.

[00:40:48] Like, you know, pay your debt to society or whatever, however you want to word it.

[00:40:52] But like, you know, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure or whatever they say.

[00:40:59] Right.

[00:40:59] Like help them get clean until they come out and they don't go back in the system over and over and over again.

[00:41:03] Yeah.

[00:41:04] And it's like, it's designed for recidivism.

[00:41:07] Yes.

[00:41:07] Yeah.

[00:41:08] And ultimately that's, that's, you know, that's what my kind of stance is that if there's more focus on rehabilitation, then community is going to get the benefit of that at the end of the day, because you're going to cut that recidivism.

[00:41:22] And that coming out and reoffending because, you know, we're going more holistic approach.

[00:41:29] Yeah.

[00:41:30] And ironically, just, I think two episodes ago, I released a reel with Dr. Lisa McCose talking about a study that has been repeated time and time again in America, Europe, and Australia was one of the countries that's been involved.

[00:41:45] And there's a lot of research where, um, it's, it's shown absolutely that if you, every dollar that goes into treatment, the system in its entirety, police, judicial, healthcare, save low end, six, high end, $10.

[00:42:01] So it's, it's an insane savings to be made by investing into treatment.

[00:42:06] Yes.

[00:42:07] And so to see the absolute opposite, it's just like, none of this makes any sense.

[00:42:10] Well, it's, it's almost like they don't care about people in addiction or in jail.

[00:42:15] Which I mean, I don't think that's a big stretch, right?

[00:42:19] No.

[00:42:19] Yeah, no, not at all.

[00:42:21] That's crazy.

[00:42:22] So let's get, let's get back to, to the group.

[00:42:25] I think you're, you're what?

[00:42:26] 1200 members strong now?

[00:42:27] Something like that?

[00:42:28] I think we're getting up there now.

[00:42:30] I'm thinking we're going to hit the two, two thousand.

[00:42:33] We're not only, but.

[00:42:35] Growth compounds growth, right?

[00:42:36] So it'll, it'll keep, oh yeah.

[00:42:37] Now that you've, you've, you've cracked that thousand, you know, Mark.

[00:42:41] Yeah.

[00:42:41] The second thousand will come a lot faster.

[00:42:43] The third thousand will come a lot faster than that.

[00:42:46] Yeah.

[00:42:46] Which is, you know, it's sad, but it's, it's good.

[00:42:50] That is good.

[00:42:50] But it's good.

[00:42:51] People have somewhere to come and, you know, speak to.

[00:42:54] Yeah.

[00:42:54] It's sad that it's needed, but it's very good that it's there.

[00:42:58] So it's something that completely made up numbers.

[00:43:01] So I'm not spitting a statistic here.

[00:43:04] I'm just to put things in perspective.

[00:43:08] For every person who's, who's suffering an addiction, there's, I think it's easy to agree

[00:43:12] that we can say 10 people are affected by it.

[00:43:16] Minimum.

[00:43:16] Easily.

[00:43:17] Way minimum.

[00:43:17] Right.

[00:43:17] So it's just, it's an arbitrary number.

[00:43:19] Yeah.

[00:43:21] And then if you look at the resources that are available, 90% of the resources go to the,

[00:43:25] to people with SUD.

[00:43:28] Maybe 10% of the resources go to, to the, to their loved ones.

[00:43:32] So it's a complete flip flop.

[00:43:34] You've got 90% of the resources going towards 10% and then 10% of, you know, the resources

[00:43:38] going to the 90%.

[00:43:40] So groups like yours are absolutely, I think I, one of the more important kind of, um,

[00:43:48] social groups that could be on, on social media.

[00:43:50] Right.

[00:43:51] Cause there is not, there's not much for people to turn to.

[00:43:54] There just is not.

[00:43:55] Right.

[00:43:56] It's not.

[00:43:57] And just as, you know, just as someone that's, um, got an addiction and stuff, stuff that

[00:44:01] shame, guilt, and et cetera, you can imagine like the family members that don't understand

[00:44:07] that shame that that feel around that to actually go and speak to people and, um, reach out and

[00:44:13] get help themselves.

[00:44:14] You know, as once the one thing I encourage family members is, um, to always get some counseling

[00:44:20] for themselves because there are so many emotions that we're dealing with, you know?

[00:44:25] And when I explain trauma to them, it's, um, you know, people have different experiences

[00:44:31] and trauma is a physical and psychological reaction to different experiences.

[00:44:36] So what might be trauma for one person is just an event for another, you know, because sometimes

[00:44:42] families, when, when you say, well, it comes from trauma, they tend to blame themselves

[00:44:46] and take that internally, you know, but when you think you're blaming them.

[00:44:51] Yes.

[00:44:51] Yes.

[00:44:52] So when you can kind of unpack trauma a bit like that to them, well, it's, you know, okay.

[00:44:58] It's, it's not all their fault, which, you know, it's the time.

[00:45:02] Trauma isn't, it's not what happened.

[00:45:05] It's what you're left with.

[00:45:06] Yes.

[00:45:06] Right.

[00:45:07] And so I always use as an example, you know, my parents split up when I was young and,

[00:45:12] um, you know, I was, I was pretty good at sports and I, I, you know, playing footy.

[00:45:18] So like soccer for, for us Canadians and I'd score a goal and I would look over onto the

[00:45:23] sidelines and like everyone else's dad was there.

[00:45:26] My dad wasn't there.

[00:45:26] And I started forming beliefs about myself and people might say to me like, Mike, that's

[00:45:31] almost 50 years ago.

[00:45:32] Like get over it.

[00:45:33] Like, that's not traumatic.

[00:45:34] That's just, you know, but that instance, like you say, wouldn't necessarily be traumatic

[00:45:39] to everyone.

[00:45:40] It could be an event.

[00:45:40] But what I was left with from that was a lack of confidence, feeling not loved.

[00:45:45] I'm not good enough.

[00:45:45] I'm not important and all of that stuff.

[00:45:47] That's the trauma.

[00:45:48] Like the, the legacy of that day is that I didn't believe in myself and that people would

[00:45:54] want to be in relationships with me.

[00:45:56] And then that impacted all of my relationships moving forward, including work relationships,

[00:46:01] romantic relationships, like all kinds of stuff.

[00:46:03] Friends.

[00:46:04] I always thought like people were being almost like charitable by, by being friends with me

[00:46:10] or in a relationship with me because I didn't deserve that.

[00:46:13] And it comes directly from little instances like that.

[00:46:15] And people don't understand.

[00:46:17] It isn't all the like war zone, sexual abuse, that kind of stuff.

[00:46:20] It's like these little things.

[00:46:21] And that's no one's fault.

[00:46:22] My mom and my dad split up because my dad was an alcoholic and my mom made the best decision

[00:46:27] for us.

[00:46:28] And she wasn't at my game because she was out earning a living to put a roof over my head,

[00:46:31] et cetera.

[00:46:32] As an adult, I understand that.

[00:46:33] As a kid, all I knew is that no one was there.

[00:46:37] Right?

[00:46:37] Yes.

[00:46:38] 100%.

[00:46:39] Yep.

[00:46:39] One of the things that my stay at the Otra Center, of course, we won't get into the specifics

[00:46:45] because we don't have the time and nor is this maybe the space for it.

[00:46:47] But some of those core beliefs and things Mike was just talking about.

[00:46:51] When I went to the Otra, I thought I was there for all that crazy big T trauma, violence

[00:46:55] and things that had happened.

[00:46:56] And I've got some stories.

[00:46:58] Let me tell you.

[00:46:58] I got some stories.

[00:46:59] And that's why I was there.

[00:47:01] But what I came to found out after experiencing trauma therapy was so many of those core beliefs

[00:47:06] that had affected me for my entire life had come from seemingly just, I'm not sure what

[00:47:12] the word I'm looking for here is, seemingly random.

[00:47:15] Innocuous.

[00:47:16] Innocuous.

[00:47:17] That's the word.

[00:47:17] Thank you.

[00:47:18] Yeah.

[00:47:18] Innocuous things that had happened when I was young.

[00:47:20] And again, like you say, Mike, I can look back and go as a grown ass man now, I can look

[00:47:24] back and go, yeah, mom, whatever.

[00:47:26] Of course he was doing that because of this.

[00:47:28] Like, think about it now, but as an 11 year old boy, that's not what you're thinking.

[00:47:33] Right.

[00:47:34] Well, in that stage, 11 year old boy, you don't understand that.

[00:47:36] In that stage of development, you see the world through the lens of it's all about me

[00:47:40] because you don't understand adult relationships and nuances and context and stuff.

[00:47:44] It's just like, oh, this is, this thing happened.

[00:47:47] And it's about my experience of it.

[00:47:49] Right.

[00:47:50] Of course.

[00:47:50] Of course.

[00:47:51] Kind of switch gears on you here.

[00:47:54] So I've been a part of other family member groups since, since the onset.

[00:47:58] The show, because again, like right from, from inception, the show has a lot of its content

[00:48:02] has geared towards family members.

[00:48:04] One of the things, um, and, and to be fair, I didn't scroll through months or even weeks,

[00:48:09] but like, you know, I, I scroll through quite a bit anyway, you know, maybe, well, maybe

[00:48:13] a couple of weeks worth of posts in the group.

[00:48:16] One of the things I did not see was the feeding frenzy, I call it.

[00:48:22] So.

[00:48:24] And it may be, it's, oh, I'm sure it has to be there because of the nature of the group.

[00:48:27] I'm sure that it is.

[00:48:27] So, and what I mean by that is often in some of the groups that I go on to, I see my son

[00:48:34] is this, my husband's that, my wife, my daughter, whatever.

[00:48:37] And the kind of gut knee jerk reaction is leave right now.

[00:48:43] Get out of there.

[00:48:44] Like kick them out.

[00:48:45] Do it like this, this kind of.

[00:48:46] I think we're pretty, um.

[00:48:48] Yeah, separate yourself.

[00:48:49] Sorry.

[00:48:50] Oh, we do have, sometimes we get a bit of that, don't we?

[00:48:53] You know?

[00:48:54] Yeah, we do, but we.

[00:48:56] Pretty poor.

[00:48:57] But we try and really explain that acceptance.

[00:49:01] Acceptance is so important, you know?

[00:49:04] You know, I guess it's, you know, I, I try and take my program into whatever I do.

[00:49:09] And, um, you know, what I'm taught is, you know, acceptance.

[00:49:13] Acceptance brings the inner peace, you know?

[00:49:16] And if we can accept where someone's at, you know, they're still our children.

[00:49:20] They're still our loved one.

[00:49:21] You know, we're always going to love them.

[00:49:23] Yes, there's certain boundaries that we need to put in place to protect.

[00:49:29] Maybe we've got younger children or whatever, to protect ourselves.

[00:49:33] But ultimately what I try and impress is that, you know, it's that, it's whoever's got the substance abuse issue.

[00:49:42] It's their journey.

[00:49:44] And we can plant these seeds, you know, of information where they can get themselves help when they're ready to get that help.

[00:49:51] Um, and, you know, hope that that garden kind of grows.

[00:49:55] I think those seeds are so, so important.

[00:49:58] Um, but to be there and do it with love.

[00:50:01] That shows the importance of, of the admin's knowledge and experience, um, in, in any given group, right?

[00:50:08] Because you can kind of steer that, that content that to somewhat anyway.

[00:50:14] Um, we are getting close to the top of the hour and, and I would be remiss if I didn't.

[00:50:17] Mike, you've spoken quite a bit on this show about the trauma faced by, by parents specifically.

[00:50:24] Um, and how important it is for them to, to kind of address their own mental health and, and, and things going on in their life.

[00:50:31] Can I get you to go on a bit of a tangent about that before we kind of, you know, move towards the end of the show?

[00:50:36] No, I think that covers it.

[00:50:37] I think, no, I think, um, it, uh, obviously, as I said earlier, like it impacts the family members as much, or maybe even more than it affects the person in addiction sometimes.

[00:50:48] Because they don't get a reprieve from it at any given time.

[00:50:51] Um, and I think that a lot of times when we reach out to people, probably some of the stuff that you're talking about, the feeding frenzy.

[00:51:00] If we reach out to people who don't understand it, we get, um, that like cut them loose, kick them out, you know, and as evidenced by your guys' stories today, um, about the use in jail, you can't punish someone enough to make them not want to use drugs anymore.

[00:51:17] Like that doesn't, that's not a viable way.

[00:51:19] The war on drugs was lost forever.

[00:51:21] Um, it's useless.

[00:51:22] So, um, you know, doing that stuff.

[00:51:26] But when, when we get that kind of feedback, it's like, as an, as a parent or a family member, I would imagine it's like, well, that's useless feedback telling me to kick them out.

[00:51:33] I'm not going to do that now.

[00:51:35] I don't want to come to you, my source of support and talk about what's going on anymore, because you're just going to tell me more stuff that is not helpful to me.

[00:51:42] That I'm not going to take those, um, sort of that, that advice into action.

[00:51:48] So what I need is someone that can actually support me where I'm at and, and help me to move forward in a way where it's like, I'm not willing to cut those ties.

[00:51:57] I'm, you know, like my experience with my mother, she, she drew a boundary.

[00:52:02] She didn't, um, you know, cut me off or anything like that.

[00:52:05] What she said was with love, I'm not supporting your addiction anymore, but I'll support everything to do with recovery.

[00:52:14] I love you.

[00:52:15] And she was told every dollar she gave me was another dollar that I would use and that she was loving me to death and all of that stuff.

[00:52:21] And she basically just said, we're not, I'm not doing it anymore.

[00:52:25] I can't, I cannot do it anymore.

[00:52:26] And I've, I was at a public speaking engagement one time and she was in the crowd and I said, oh, I think you can probably ask her.

[00:52:32] That was the most difficult thing she ever said because she didn't know what was going to happen.

[00:52:38] And she was nodding her head in the crowd.

[00:52:40] But what happened was four days later, I was in treatment because I knew she would support anything to move forward, but she wouldn't support anything I wanted to do to use.

[00:52:48] And she was powerless about that.

[00:52:50] She couldn't, you know, I was 32 years old.

[00:52:53] She couldn't control what I was going to do.

[00:52:54] She could only control what she was going to do and what she was going to do was going to love me and support me in healthy stuff and just opt out of, of supporting unhealthy stuff.

[00:53:04] And I know that that would be terrifying.

[00:53:07] I'm sure she would have, you know, breathed for me if that's what I asked her to do.

[00:53:12] That's the level of sort of what she was willing to do to kind of help me.

[00:53:15] And, and really all she needs to do, all she could do was, was love me.

[00:53:19] And I think that she did, I don't know where she got it, but she got some good advice from someone that, that space of I'm not kicking him out.

[00:53:28] I'm not punishing him.

[00:53:29] Like he's already hurt.

[00:53:31] And I think it speaks to that treatment thing where people say we need to break them down and build them back up.

[00:53:36] And it's like, well, we're already broken down.

[00:53:37] Like I don't need to be broken down further.

[00:53:39] And my mom was like, I'll help to build them up, but I'm not helping with the breaking down stuff anymore.

[00:53:44] So I don't know if that's the rant you're looking for, Chris.

[00:53:47] Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.

[00:53:48] That's the one I got.

[00:53:50] Chad Valier is a good friend of mine in Canada here, who's another content creator.

[00:53:54] He just made a reel the other day saying, I will do anything to help you get better and nothing to help you get sicker.

[00:54:01] Right.

[00:54:01] And it was like, yeah, you know, that's, that's it right there.

[00:54:04] You actually had something a while ago and I can't, I'm going to paraphrase it.

[00:54:07] I'll get it wrong a bit, but it was something like nobody has ever like regretted not loving someone enough.

[00:54:18] It was about like, you know, if you have a loved one in addiction who, you know, you do the tough love thing and then they can go out and they can pass away.

[00:54:26] And then you're full of regret.

[00:54:27] Like, why didn't I do this?

[00:54:28] But I think your take on it, Chris, was like the opposite is like, I'll never regret not loving him.

[00:54:34] I can't remember.

[00:54:35] Maybe you remember that.

[00:54:35] I say so many wise things.

[00:54:37] It's hard to keep track.

[00:54:38] Really?

[00:54:39] Like, you know, they just, they come out like so fast.

[00:54:41] What I'm hearing is he stole it from someone and he doesn't remember.

[00:54:45] There's a very good chance of that.

[00:54:47] A very good chance of that.

[00:54:49] Change one word.

[00:54:51] If, you know, if I'm not feeling lazy, but no, one of the things I am prone to saying is that people thrive in spite of tough love, not because of it.

[00:54:58] You know, being tough on somebody is never going to improve their situation.

[00:55:02] Right.

[00:55:03] It may not make it worse, but they get better because of, in spite of that, not because of it.

[00:55:08] And I think that's a narrative.

[00:55:11] That's a narrative that is rapid in the recovery communities.

[00:55:14] It's rapid.

[00:55:15] It's everywhere.

[00:55:16] Right.

[00:55:16] Well, if you look at like old school, traditional sort of addiction treatment, a lot of it is shaming and blaming.

[00:55:24] And the success rates of that are like terribly low.

[00:55:28] Yeah.

[00:55:29] But when you actually have a more trauma informed, caring, compassionate way where it's like, I understand, like, you're not a bad person.

[00:55:36] You just have behaviors that are maladaptive coping behaviors because of this stuff.

[00:55:40] Like, let's try to understand you and support you into changing those behaviors.

[00:55:44] You just get a better chance of someone feeling cared for and loved and that there's enough support for them to get well instead of saying like, fuck this, I'm going to use.

[00:55:55] Of course.

[00:55:56] A hundred percent.

[00:55:56] So I think what Kelly and I try to do is really put that education out there for families, you know, so that they can gain that better understanding and then support their loved one better.

[00:56:07] Yeah.

[00:56:07] Yeah, definitely.

[00:56:10] The parents in Australia are lucky you guys are doing that.

[00:56:12] Now, about that group, can people join from anywhere or is it, do you kind of just like to focus on the Australian component?

[00:56:18] I think anywhere.

[00:56:19] Anyone can join.

[00:56:20] Anywhere?

[00:56:21] Okay.

[00:56:21] Okay.

[00:56:22] Great.

[00:56:22] So anybody that's listening, the link, of course, will be in the show notes.

[00:56:26] I think there are incredible groups like that.

[00:56:28] We should have more of them that should be bigger.

[00:56:30] And specifically, they should be run by people like yourselves with a bit more compassion in them than maybe some of the other groups out there.

[00:56:39] Right?

[00:56:40] Think about...

[00:56:40] Actually, that...

[00:56:42] Sorry.

[00:56:42] Sorry.

[00:56:43] I made that meme, people inspire in spite of tough love, not because of it.

[00:56:47] Yeah.

[00:56:47] And I was kicked out of two separate family groups for it.

[00:56:51] Two.

[00:56:53] It's the old school way to look at it.

[00:56:56] Yeah.

[00:56:57] Yeah.

[00:56:57] It's the old school way to look at it.

[00:56:58] And I think, you know, it's with what you have as parents living your lives, as far as like resources available, and that you have created this thing.

[00:57:09] Like to think that governments can't do this is insane.

[00:57:12] Like that they can't like look at what actually works.

[00:57:15] Do a whole lot better.

[00:57:16] Yeah.

[00:57:17] You would think.

[00:57:18] But again, it's like they don't care.

[00:57:21] Yeah.

[00:57:22] No, it's crazy.

[00:57:23] Seemingly.

[00:57:24] With the NUS campaign, we've been trying to get government funding for the last 12 years.

[00:57:28] And we're still a non-funded charity.

[00:57:32] Insane.

[00:57:33] I mean, I'll get Dr. Lisa to find one of those studies for you that were done in Australia.

[00:57:37] Yeah.

[00:57:37] About the effectiveness of prevention.

[00:57:40] I wonder what the salaries are of all the guys in suits sitting around at their like catered lunch discussing whether or not they should give you some funding.

[00:57:48] Yeah.

[00:57:49] Yeah.

[00:57:49] What?

[00:57:51] Sorry.

[00:57:51] That's my anti-capitalist leading left, bleeding heart liberal therapist.

[00:57:58] It wouldn't be an episode if you didn't give.

[00:57:59] I'm a therapist.

[00:58:01] I'm a therapist.

[00:58:03] That's what I do.

[00:58:04] You can't fight the establishment.

[00:58:06] No.

[00:58:06] That's the thing.

[00:58:09] Fight it from the inside.

[00:58:11] Smuggle your values in.

[00:58:12] Yes.

[00:58:15] Infiltrate.

[00:58:15] Yeah.

[00:58:17] Anyway, we are at the top of the hour.

[00:58:19] So that does bring us to my favorite part of the show.

[00:58:21] And that is the daily gratitude.

[00:58:23] Today's daily gratitudes are brought to you by FAR.

[00:58:25] That's Families for Addiction Recovery.

[00:58:27] We're doing some really great things in Canada, helping families with loved ones who suffer with SUD.

[00:58:31] You can learn more about them at FARCanada.org.

[00:58:34] And in the meantime, here's daily gratitudes.

[00:58:37] And let's stick with the order we had.

[00:58:39] Kelly, what are you grateful for today?

[00:58:40] I'm just grateful to sort of have, well, rigged this journey with my son to, you know, not be like, you know, they're just an addict.

[00:58:50] You know, they're someone that does need help and does need love and does need support.

[00:58:54] And I'm glad that we can help other people that are on the same journey as us.

[00:59:00] That's a great gratitude.

[00:59:02] Tia, what are you grateful for today?

[00:59:04] I'm grateful for the gifts of recovery.

[00:59:06] Being alive today to share my story, all those bad choices and coping mechanisms give me the best tools to be able to help others.

[00:59:14] So I'm grateful for that.

[00:59:16] Great.

[00:59:16] That's great.

[00:59:17] Mike, what about yourself?

[00:59:18] What are you grateful for?

[00:59:20] I'm grateful that all of you people are using these platforms to try to help others.

[00:59:26] And I'm really struck by...

[00:59:28] You people?

[00:59:29] Well, you three people here with me.

[00:59:30] Yeah, you people.

[00:59:32] You people.

[00:59:33] You awesome people doing the good stuff that you're doing.

[00:59:37] Keep it up.

[00:59:38] No, I'm grateful that you guys are doing what you're doing.

[00:59:44] And I'm really struck by the gratitude I have for my mom and how she was the catalyst for my recovery and has, much to her detriment at times, never stopped supporting me.

[00:59:57] And, you know, I've had lots of people along the way that have done that.

[01:00:01] So, but my mom is the big one.

[01:00:03] And I say that because it's always the mom stories that get me because of my mom.

[01:00:07] So I want to...

[01:00:08] Yeah.

[01:00:09] Big love to your mom.

[01:00:11] 100%.

[01:00:11] Big love.

[01:00:12] I'll let her know.

[01:00:15] And big love back to you guys and to your sons.

[01:00:18] Thank you.

[01:00:19] Yeah, no kidding.

[01:00:20] Yeah, there's hope.

[01:00:20] It can get better.

[01:00:23] I'm going to echo you, actually.

[01:00:24] It's been a while since I've sent out a specific thanks to mom, some gratitude to her.

[01:00:29] As Mike is more than aware of, and you guys wouldn't know, but she has everything to do with what goes on in the show, how we exit the show with the You Are Loved message.

[01:00:38] Daily gratitudes themselves are as a direct result of my mom.

[01:00:41] My healing journey in Thailand was only made possible because of her.

[01:00:44] There's like so much that I have to be thankful to that woman for.

[01:00:49] So I'm very grateful for her.

[01:00:51] I'm also grateful to every single person who continues to like, comment, share, interact with, talk about anything to do with our platform.

[01:00:58] It's growing all the time and it's growing really fast.

[01:01:01] I'm very thankful for that because every time you do these things, you're keeping me living my best life.

[01:01:06] My best life is to continue making a humble living, spreading the message.

[01:01:09] And the message is this.

[01:01:10] If you're in active addiction right now, today could be the day.

[01:01:13] Today could be the day that you start a lifelong journey.

[01:01:15] Reach out to a friend.

[01:01:16] Reach out to a family member.

[01:01:17] Go to college, a detox, pray, go to church.

[01:01:19] I don't care.

[01:01:20] Do whatever it is you got to do to get that journey started because it is so much better than the alternative.

[01:01:24] And if you have a loved one who's suffering an addiction right now, you should take the time to listen to this rather amazing episode.

[01:01:31] You just take one more minute out of your day and text that person.

[01:01:33] Let them know they are loved.

[01:01:34] Use the words.

[01:01:36] You are loved.

[01:01:37] That little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings it back.

[01:01:40] Yeah.