214 -KALEIDOSCOPE WEDNESDAY W/JAMIE TALL

Chuck LaFLange (00:01.71)
Hello everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds. Welcome to another episode of Kaleidoscope Wednesday on the Ashes to Awesome podcast. I'm your host Chuck LaFlange with me in Virtual Studio, halfway around the world. He is Ryan, checking in from Mission BC out in Canada. How you doing today, Ryan?

RBK Kaleidoscope (00:17.386)
I'm okay, you know. You can't outrace father time, I'll tell you that. So yeah, I got some, I got some stuff. I got this thing called H. pylori, which sucks. Yeah, it's, I guess I've had it for like six years and didn't even know. It's a stomach bacteria. It ends up giving me ulcers.

Chuck LaFLange (00:23.35)
Hehe

Chuck LaFLange (00:32.13)
sounds complicated. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (00:39.66)
Uh-uh.

RBK Kaleidoscope (00:45.358)
So now I'm on the medication for that and it's just kicking the living, you know what, out of me. So my energy could be better.

Chuck LaFLange (00:45.411)
Ah.

Chuck LaFLange (00:50.51)
There you go.

Chuck LaFLange (00:55.534)
Okay, okay. Well, here's hoping you get through it okay. My next guests, or sorry, my guests, is Jamie Tall, who is a Recovery Content Creator, I'll dare say influencer even, on Facebook. We've become quite close friends. We've done an episode together now, done a live stream or two together. She's become a big part of my life. Welcome to the show, Jamie. Checking in from...

RBK Kaleidoscope (00:56.635)
But it's not. So here we are.

Chuck LaFLange (01:24.79)
App and storage, right? Did I get it right?

Jamie Tall (01:27.25)
Athens, Georgia. Yes. Home of UGA.

Chuck LaFLange (01:28.842)
Yay! There we go. There we go. There we go. Go Bulldogs, right? How you doing today?

RBK Kaleidoscope (01:29.138)
Athens, Georgia.

Jamie Tall (01:35.981)
That's right.

RBK Kaleidoscope (01:40.198)
Cool bolt outs.

Jamie Tall (01:42.915)
I'm doing great.

Chuck LaFLange (01:44.842)
Yeah, yeah. So we're here to unpack kind of the success in your recovery and the beauty in your recovery. And, you know, without a bunch of further ado, how about we just get right into that. So Ryan, why don't you take it from here?

RBK Kaleidoscope (02:03.334)
Oh boy, okay. Um, so Jamie, I guess right off the bat I want to say, uh, what? What? No, I don't care. I don't care, Chris.

Chuck LaFLange (02:15.563)
Ha ha.

RBK Kaleidoscope (02:19.666)
So I've kind of done, I'm not going to say homework, but I'm really impressed with your philosophies, your ability to engage. And especially, I think you have an outstanding ability to articulate with both an element of IQ and especially EQ. And I think that that, from my perspective, is a very engaging.

I don't know if that's a natural thing for you or a skill you've worked on, but it's definitely something that speaks through your posts and your engagements. And so this has been a kind of, you know, I've been looking forward to this for a while. And what I haven't done is prepared. And that's kind of by design. Because, well, I just I don't prepare well. I don't work well from scripts.

as Chuck knows so well. So, tell me a few things here. First of all, Athens, Georgia, do you know who Channing Tindall is?

Jamie Tall (03:31.062)
I don't think so.

RBK Kaleidoscope (03:33.006)
Well, I'm a Miami Dolphins fan. He plays for them and came from University of Georgia. So just want to know if you had a clue who that was, but it's totally irrelevant. Now, I guess what I want to say is like, my first question for you would be.

Let's just go scenario, okay? What happens when you're, you're having a day maybe, okay? And you pick up the phone, first thing you do is you call your sponsor, right? 101. Sponsor doesn't answer. Your next call doesn't answer. How do you process that? How do you work with that? What happens? What do you rely on?

Jamie Tall (04:19.494)
So actually the first thing that I do is pray before I even call anyone, even for guidance of who to talk to, who I should call for this if that need be. But really for me, it is my connection with God that has.

RBK Kaleidoscope (04:24.463)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie Tall (04:44.71)
basically led me to where I am today. And I've actually had that scenario. I remember in early recovery working at a restaurant and we were not allowed to have our phones. So I think actually even my phone was dead and the people I was working for were real jackasses. And the lady at the end of the night was offering shots to people. And

being in early recovery and at a sober living, you weren't allowed to drink. Yeah. And so really having to rely on my connection with God to help me in that situation.

RBK Kaleidoscope (05:17.222)
Yeah, I think it's true for most places, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (05:19.317)
Hehehe

RBK Kaleidoscope (05:31.926)
Okay, okay, I need some help then. Okay, actually I have a question that I just like to ask everybody that has a deep connection with some kind of faith. And this is gonna sound like a really stupid question, but it's funny how the answers differ. What gender is your God?

Jamie Tall (05:56.069)
My God is a male.

RBK Kaleidoscope (05:57.774)
Is it male? Okay. And I mean, that's pretty common. But it's amazing how many times I hear either female or either neither. And I've heard before that, you know, the God that I believe in is beyond gender. And all those kind of make sense to me now, you know, like my, personally, I'm not a faith-based person per se in a traditional sense. And, you know, I don't need to unpack that.

But I believe heavily in spirituality, and spirituality to me is about connection and vulnerability mostly. And so, has your faith always been with you? Is it always something you invested in? Or was this like, once recovery came, you really went for it?

Jamie Tall (06:45.354)
Um, so I was raised in a very religious denomination that was like works based. And even through that, I didn't exactly agree with the denomination because I felt like it was sure.

Chuck LaFLange (07:02.454)
Can I interrupt and ask what Workspace is?

Chuck LaFLange (07:07.884)
Yeah. What do you mean by workspace?

Jamie Tall (07:08.494)
Workspaced um meaning if you do this and do this and check this box and check this box, then you'll go to heaven

RBK Kaleidoscope (07:19.586)
Yeah. And vice versa. If you don't, then you're looking at purgatory or it's going to get, it's going to get, yeah, yeah. It's going to get really hot if you don't. Yeah. Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, Chris, but I'm trying to, I'm trying a new skill that is called not interrupting because I have a real bad problem with that. I'm a therapist and I get paid for that. But this isn't therapy, so I can't do that here.

Chuck LaFLange (07:20.09)
Ah, okay, okay. Yeah.

Jamie Tall (07:24.556)
Yes, and if you don't, you're going to burn.

Chuck LaFLange (07:28.159)
Okay, okay, okay. Okay, okay, yep, yep.

Jamie Tall (07:33.032)
Right.

RBK Kaleidoscope (07:49.254)
So anyways, so do you want to continue? There's more there, right?

Chuck LaFLange (07:49.326)
Okay. Continue please. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jamie Tall (07:55.03)
Sure. Yeah. Um, so when I came into recovery, the counselor that was at the recovery center was a pastor and he taught me a very different kind of spirituality that was relationship-based and truth-based.

Chuck LaFLange (07:55.766)
Yeah, yeah.

Jamie Tall (08:25.55)
rather than workspaced. It was like a relationship where I was already accepted and I was already loved despite what I did.

RBK Kaleidoscope (08:39.218)
So can I define the two in a really simple term? The workspace being formulaic and linear, whereas what you've learned was more of a cyclical and emerging kind of faith, but completely reliant on your ability to be accessible. Is that correct?

Jamie Tall (08:44.123)
Sure.

Jamie Tall (09:05.754)
to be able to receive and open to communicate. Absolutely.

RBK Kaleidoscope (09:09.582)
Yes, yes. Right. Yeah, I mean, because it's really hard to have connection when there's one of the two people aren't accessible, you know, really. And so that so. OK, so I want to get into a little bit of a of a deeper question than that. And I guess the question, how do I how do I put this? So there's an old saying by Victor Frankel that says he who has.

Chuck LaFLange (09:09.858)
Yes. Yeah.

Jamie Tall (09:18.59)
Yes.

RBK Kaleidoscope (09:39.534)
A, why, has little concern for the how. And so, what is it that fires you up these days? What is it that gets you, what makes you feel alive? What is so important in your life that makes the other things noise?

Jamie Tall (09:57.854)
Um, for me, basically it is encouraging and speaking out and loving people who are struggling, who feel unlovable, who feel unworthy, and showing them that they are worthy of love.

RBK Kaleidoscope (10:20.478)
That's awesome, but also my brain just went bing. Because one thing we, I'm not sure if you have any familiar with our Wednesday kaleidoscope show, we talk a lot about the four tenets of what it is to be in a true relationship. And that is to be heard, to be seen, to be lovable, or to love and to feel lovable. And obviously that last one is that's the mountain decline. How do we get to a place of feeling lovable?

And so what does that look like for you to feel lovable?

Jamie Tall (10:57.302)
So for me, it was really establishing what I thought of myself and what God said about me.

RBK Kaleidoscope (11:10.999)
Okay, so.

Jamie Tall (11:12.278)
and like the truth, what the truth of that was. It was really like what God said about me first and being able to believe that and dismantle the false beliefs that I had been programmed to believe, that I have been like falsely told, you know, like all of these things.

RBK Kaleidoscope (11:28.799)
Mm.

RBK Kaleidoscope (11:32.514)
Oh yeah.

Jamie Tall (11:33.686)
and dismantling those and being able to look at these things and say like, well, what is the truth in this? And what is the evidence behind the truth too? Not just like a blind faith, you know, but like, what is the truth with the evidence by this?

RBK Kaleidoscope (11:51.106)
And that's what makes it tangible. Or in other words, just not an idea. So you say, I mean, what, what you just said really, really speaks to me in, in a personal way, I guess. Um, and so I guess my question is, is like, do you remember the moment that first happened?

Jamie Tall (11:53.525)
Mm-hmm.

Jamie Tall (12:12.618)
I do. I do remember the moment that it first happened and I was actually, um, I was working steps with a sponsor and

I can't remember which sponsor it was because I went through quite a few and I've gone through all the different fellowships, all the A's, you know, and the R's too, you know. So I remember I was working this specific step where I had done a very thorough fourth step and then, you know, fifth step with the sponsor. And I had like a five star notebook and it was, you know, full of, you know, your resentments.

RBK Kaleidoscope (12:31.761)
Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (12:35.861)
Yeah.

Jamie Tall (12:54.746)
your fears and then your sexual inventory. And my sponsor, it was like a five star notebook and it was like full of like all of these things, right? And I remember my sponsor told me to take it home and meditate on what does God want me to see in this? And I really began to like have a conversation like, well, truthfully, God...

RBK Kaleidoscope (13:03.11)
Yeah.

Jamie Tall (13:24.19)
Um, according to all these things in my five star notebook, it doesn't look like you're very approving of me because of all of these terrible things that I've done, you know? So how am I supposed to turn my will and my life, my thoughts and my actions over to the care of you when I don't even know how you feel about me? And the next day...

RBK Kaleidoscope (13:33.79)
Hehe

Jamie Tall (13:53.802)
I was over at my mother's house and I was sitting across from my daughter. She was five or six years old. Her hair was a mess. She had food all over her face and she was like scribbling with a crayon in this coloring book and I was just looking at her in this adoration. Like, oh my goodness, this is the most beautiful creature I've ever seen. I just so much love pouring out.

And at that moment, God spoke to me and he said, that is how I look at you. And that is what changed my view forever.

RBK Kaleidoscope (14:34.034)
To be of air is to be human. To be of forgiveness is to be divine. Interesting. So, how would you daughter now?

Jamie Tall (14:47.214)
She's 13.

RBK Kaleidoscope (14:50.09)
All right, you got some a few years of seeing yourself in a different reflection every time you look in the mirror. That's interesting. That's definitely interesting. Can I ask some different questions? Have you been challenged? How have you? How has your faith been challenged? How has your recovery been challenged? How is this? The question, the question is. Maybe I'm going to say it anyway.

Jamie Tall (14:58.214)
Definitely.

Jamie Tall (15:05.499)
Sure.

Jamie Tall (15:12.114)
Ugh.

RBK Kaleidoscope (15:19.682)
I'm starting with that because really what I'm trying to do here is show how powerful struggle really is. I always say, I can tell you I'm the greatest guy in the world sitting in a dinghy floating down a river on a hot sunny day. But when that storm hits, the answer is probably a lot different. So how has struggle made...

Jamie, who Jamie is.

Jamie Tall (15:53.394)
So there are a couple of things. I can talk about things in my earlier recovery and I can talk about things in my later recovery. Which one would you rather?

RBK Kaleidoscope (16:04.238)
Well, for me, since I've been around for 650 years, I want to hear about the later stuff. But we have a demographic of all walks of life and all different. We have a demographic of people who haven't discovered recovery yet. So I think both are quite valuable, to be honest with you. But me personally, I, you know, I got my struggles and I've been at this a long, long time. And some of those struggles just keep reappearing in the same way. And, and, you know, like

Hey Ryan, you got a lesson to learn. Hey Ryan, that lesson's still here. Hey Ryan, are you dumb? You know, like, come on. So I'm just wondering, like, so why don't we start with what you wanna talk about?

Jamie Tall (16:49.206)
Okay, so we'll talk about the earlier first. We'll kind of go in chronological order. Okay, so at 90 days sober, my mother took custody of my children. And I felt like somebody had died. I tried to fight it. But because I was living in a sober living facility in the state of Georgia, you are considered homeless.

RBK Kaleidoscope (16:54.043)
Yeah, okay.

Jamie Tall (17:18.018)
So I lost. And, mm-hmm. For me, because of the trauma that I went through in my addiction, which included a lot of, there was like human trafficking involved and just violence and abuse. So for me,

RBK Kaleidoscope (17:20.271)
That's the same in Canada as well.

Jamie Tall (17:46.562)
I had the opportunity to stay at my sober living for as long as I wanted to, because it was on a campus right next to UGA. So I had my own apartment and my rent was really cheap. And it was safe. That was the big thing. It was safe. I had accountability. I had community. And even when I had up to three years sober.

my contract from the judge said that my children were allowed to come spend every other weekend with me. Well, my mother wouldn't allow it because she said, you're living in a rehab with a bunch of druggies. I'm just thinking this is the safest place. We get drug tested three times a week. There's nobody here doing drugs. So

RBK Kaleidoscope (18:34.905)
Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (18:39.406)
Yeah, there's a cultural lag there though. Like that's that Nancy Reaganism that just doesn't seem to go away. Anyway, sorry for interrupting, but yeah, I know I understand what you're saying.

Jamie Tall (18:46.642)
Mm-hmm. So it was really hard for me. So I ended up moving down the street into some townhouses where the staff lived actually. So I was still in community and I ended up being president of the board of directors of that sober living at one point. So still very involved.

you know, but it was just like working through those things. There was a point where I was trying to get my massage license. So I am a medical massage therapist and I work in the community. I created a protocol for massage with people in recovery and trauma informed massage. So introducing safe touch to women who have been trafficked and traumatized and abused and men as well.

And so when I went to go get my massage license, I passed the test on the first try. I had somebody from the board who was advocating for me and they denied me. They denied me twice. They denied me twice because of my background and my record and also because my massage school had closed. And I knew

RBK Kaleidoscope (20:07.678)
So stigma.

Jamie Tall (20:09.182)
Yes, stigma, stigma. So finally, I went the third time. So it was, what should have taken two months took me 14 months to get a massage license, which was really just like the opening of this amazing career that I needed to be able to be fully self-supporting and be able to like pay off, you know, all of my debts and all of these things.

So struggling through that, through getting denied twice, and then finally the third time going in person to the board and saying, hey, please give me a massage license. I just wanna help people. These are the things that I have done at three and a half years of recovery. These are the courses I've completed. These are my letters of recommendation from probation from the...

you know, so reliving and just being able to be resilient in that and say, you know what, no matter what, I'm not going to go back out. I don't care if things aren't going my way. I know that this is worth fighting for and I'm going to keep getting up and I'm going to keep fighting.

RBK Kaleidoscope (21:20.778)
So there's a couple things happen there for me. And I want to touch down on something here because what you've done is, I can relate to somehow as a therapist, you've changed the lives of many women and especially in their ability to trust both other women and other men and most importantly themselves in situations that could be

quite vulnerable. Can you think of a time that you have helped somebody that has transformed their life?

Jamie Tall (22:01.698)
Oh yeah, I mean, there's been lots of things. There's one woman in specific that I'm thinking of that I worked with and she actually got pregnant by her father and had twins.

And that was really hard because when I first started working on her, she was real angry and skittish and of course had a lot of like mental health. But now she is, you know, like a leader in our community. And it was just being able to like accept the place that she was with her mental health and just be kind and.

encouraging and just loving to her, just like serving her where she was at. And that was something really amazing. And I just love to be able to see her in the community today for advocating for women who have been abused. And that is something that is really awesome. That is one, but there are a lot of women.

RBK Kaleidoscope (23:16.614)
Okay, how did that change you?

Jamie Tall (23:20.834)
Um, I mean, it just like fills me up with joy, you know, it's just like seeing these women go from feeling powerless and really like in their own mind being powerless to being like powerhouses, you know, where they are speaking out and changing lives and not scared of the things that they've been through.

RBK Kaleidoscope (23:47.394)
Are we talking about them?

Jamie Tall (23:52.366)
Well, them, I mean, and me as well. You know? Right, yes, yes.

RBK Kaleidoscope (23:56.919)
That's kind of where I'm going with that. Because I'm assuming that in that moment, in that... We all experience these things where time and space are transcended through the power of emotion. And we almost break through this crust of our existence into an openness to potential that we didn't even know existed. And it feels to me...

Like that moment has happened for you specifically with this one individual you're talking about. And then obviously as it happens more and more we become more used to it, but it doesn't change the impact of that. And so Jamie today talking to me here right now must be an extremely different person than the one that very first impacted that first person and had that change. And we call that a paradigm shift.

or spiritual awakening. I guess there's many, many words for it. And so for me, what you just told me was that you are an exceptional human being to begin with. And I say that because your power of resiliency, which to me is one of the most phenomenological characteristics of the human experience, that your power of resilience has become

contagious like a smile and I don't know you but I'm gonna guess that is something you really appreciate not just about yourself but how you're able to transcend that into another human being's experience and then think about that butterfly effect and on and on and on. Now as a therapist it's not very good not very often I come across successes that I hear about. I have to wonder.

And I choose to wonder that I've helped thousands of people because of all the people that have come in contact with them by helping one single person. So for a second, can you just think about how many, not just women, how many lives you've helped transform by being resilient enough to go through 14 months, two denials, and a plethora of stigma and old world views?

RBK Kaleidoscope (26:20.302)
And at any given time, you could have gave up. Any time then. And it would have been okay to give up, because it's hard. And so to you, for me today, I want to pay deep respects to you as a woman, to you as a human being that encompasses the true power of the human spirit. And I'm honored to be a part of this today. I'm glad you're answering these questions with such honesty.

because it's really, really filling my heart. I really appreciate it. So that's the beginning. How does challenge, how does struggle affect you today?

Jamie Tall (26:53.766)
Thank you.

Jamie Tall (27:06.45)
So probably the hardest thing that I have been through, you know, minus my mom taking my kids from me when I had 90 days sober, was my divorce recently. It was just finalized January 2nd. And it was, you know, I got married October 10th of 2021. And I...

It's like one of these things where you do everything right and you still get screwed over. You do everything right and you still got screwed and you're like, wait, but I did all the things like I can't like in a can if I can speak from a sense of faith of people who are, you know, followers of the faith. I consecrated myself. I sanctified myself. I stayed celibate for a period of time.

RBK Kaleidoscope (27:42.338)
Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (27:50.363)
Here.

Jamie Tall (28:05.846)
You know what I mean? I did all the things that a Proverbs 31 woman in the Bible would have done, right, for this marriage and throughout the marriage and I still got screwed. And that was so hard. That has probably been the most challenging thing that I've been through.

RBK Kaleidoscope (28:12.05)
Hehehe

Jamie Tall (28:31.426)
Um, and the most devastating thing that I have been through. However, there has been, uh, amazing things that has happened since the, what do you call it? Dissolving dissolution of that marriage. Um, and I have been really thrusted into a new season and also new experience of things that I can help other women with.

RBK Kaleidoscope (28:37.156)
Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (29:00.794)
Yeah. And, you know, I think that there's men out there that can learn from you too. I don't think it's exclusive to gender. And maybe I'm wrong. I've never been divorced. So to have an opinion would be obtuse. I've also never been married, but I've engaged for like six years now or something like that. I don't know what it is. Most importantly.

Jamie Tall (29:01.112)
So.

Jamie Tall (29:14.863)
Eh.

RBK Kaleidoscope (29:31.134)
I don't, I don't, I don't use, let's see. I don't question the workings of the universe. And that's like that old, that old tail could be bad, could be good, who knows, you know, like, I know that things are hard and, you know, I'm, I'm a university graduate. I've spent hours in classrooms and by far my greatest teacher has been struggle.

has been pain. And I know that love does not exist without pain. Life does not exist without death. Water does not exist without dry. You know, one implies the other. And so in this life you're living today, what strength have you gained from that experience?

Jamie Tall (30:21.222)
Definitely knowing that I can trust what is unfolding in my life. I can trust what God is doing because he knows what's best for me. And if he takes something away from me, it's because it was not good for me. And if he moves me in a different direction, it's because it's going to be good for me.

and also that he's not gonna let anything come upon me unaware. And also that he taught me a lot of lessons for my next endeavor because I will get I will be a wife again. I'm sure of it. And, you know, this time I do have some new wisdom on it, you know, so.

RBK Kaleidoscope (30:55.876)
Uh.

RBK Kaleidoscope (31:04.563)
Heh heh.

RBK Kaleidoscope (31:13.71)
And you will be a wife again, according to Jamie and the life Jamie wants to live, not bending and cutting corners to make someone else happy. And then having that come back to you and ultimately not working out. When we are not authentic, we are at a rhythm. When we're at a rhythm, we're out of touch with the organic world or the spiritual world, whatever way you wanna look at that. And I think, I think it's just like, I value struggle so much.

Jamie Tall (31:25.377)
Right.

RBK Kaleidoscope (31:44.102)
because of how much I've learned about who I am in this world. And I always say that if I had it my way, if my plans went the way that I was gonna go, then I can guarantee you I would be on my third or fourth marriage and just a douchebag. I know I would be because the things I wanted from life were very material and very much about what you think about me and not what I think about me.

And to me, that's a hollow existence. And the only way that I found that out was by hurt, by going through stuff and having difficulties. And I had a question that was, I wanna go back a little bit. I actually don't have to go back. I would like to hear your definition of the difference between comfort and safety.

Jamie Tall (32:41.05)
Hmm. Um, so comfort for me, I can get comfort from things that are not healthy. So I can get comfort from food. I can get comfort from cuddling with random men. I can get comfort from charging up my credit cards on a shopping spree, right? But being it feeling safe.

RBK Kaleidoscope (32:51.887)
Oh yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (32:57.896)
Hehehe

RBK Kaleidoscope (33:03.03)
out

Jamie Tall (33:11.062)
is for me, I feel like it's more like pure, like safety is like good for me, like safe. In my house, I feel safe, right? I know there are no threats. I know that I am protected because I have a lock and a chain on my door. I know that I'm gonna be nourished because I have food in my fridge. I know that I'm gonna be warm because I have the heat that I can turn on.

Right? I have blankets and I have a comfortable bed. You know what I mean? Like that is like safe. I think of barriers, walls, protection when I think of feeling safe.

RBK Kaleidoscope (33:49.956)
Mm-hmm.

RBK Kaleidoscope (33:54.578)
Do you think safety has an element of peace to it?

Jamie Tall (33:57.592)
Absolutely.

RBK Kaleidoscope (33:58.982)
Do you think comfort does?

Jamie Tall (34:00.842)
It can, but it's not always, it doesn't always have the effects of long lasting.

RBK Kaleidoscope (34:07.394)
Right? I feel like if I have peace in comfort, I feel like I'm being dishonest with myself. I feel like it's fake. Like I'm creating that to make comfortable okay. But when I'm safe, I don't question that peaceful existence. And I know that, you know, like in my home, it's the same. And I'm a sanctuary guy.

I don't like having people over at my house because I start getting anxiety. You know what I mean? Like that is my space. And I got my little, my kids there and my wife there and everything is great. And I don't question whether or not it's peaceful or not. But I, you know, I grew up in chaos. Comfort and chaos are very familiar things to me. And it's not for one second do I find peace in that space.

I can tell myself that I'm peaceful, but I'm lying to myself. And I do that a lot. And I just wonder, like, I wonder if this is a human thing or a Ryan made this up in his head thing, which is something that happens all the time, I'm sure. And so it's interesting to get your perspective from that.

RBK Kaleidoscope (35:24.422)
There was another question I had, but I'm a bit of a dory with my memory. So, yeah, I don't remember what I was going to say. So, where are you at today? Like what's Jamie's world like today? What is, yeah, like how do I want to put this?

RBK Kaleidoscope (35:48.55)
How do you love today?

Jamie Tall (35:53.49)
So today,

Jamie Tall (35:59.834)
Well, I have my son who just moved in with me on January 10th, and that has been amazing. Um, so loving him has been, uh, you know, because we've been sep- Mm-hmm. Go ahead.

Chuck LaFLange (36:14.202)
Now I have to interrupt there real quick if you don't mind, Jamie. I do have to interrupt on that one. Of course, we did have the pleasure of meeting Dominic on the show two weeks ago now, I guess it was, right? So two Wednesdays ago. So folks, if you're paying attention right now, go back and check that one out. Can't remember the episode number offhand, but it'll be the Kaleidoscope Wednesday before last. And Dominic got to speak to some of the awesomeness that is, you know...

RBK Kaleidoscope (36:17.661)
Yeah, I was waiting for it.

Chuck LaFLange (36:41.154)
that he's experiencing these days in his mother's recovery. So, sorry, I have to, I haven't said much throughout the entire episode. I had to jump in. I had to, it's my job, it's my job, it's my job. So, sorry, not sorry. Okay, so please continue though, Jamie. Sorry for interrupting. Go ahead, Jamie.

RBK Kaleidoscope (36:46.554)
No, I knew you were gonna plug that.

RBK Kaleidoscope (36:50.955)
I wanted to plug it but I was like, you know what? Chuck will get it. Yeah. Yeah, but I mean, you know.

RBK Kaleidoscope (37:00.42)
Eh heh.

Jamie Tall (37:02.522)
Loving with wisdom is what I would say.

RBK Kaleidoscope (37:07.387)
What's wisdom?

Jamie Tall (37:09.634)
wisdom is being able to step back and consider before I speak.

RBK Kaleidoscope (37:20.888)
I need some wisdom.

Jamie Tall (37:24.294)
Definitely. Taking the things that I've learned and applying them to how I respond and how I move forward.

RBK Kaleidoscope (37:36.198)
You ever heard the formula that experience plus knowledge equals wisdom?

Jamie Tall (37:43.066)
I have not.

RBK Kaleidoscope (37:45.138)
Oh, well, we learned something new. So yeah, that's kind of how I look at that. Lots of experience, the knowledge part I'm working on. But no, and I like how you've taken, so to me, love is this evolutionary thing. You know, it's not, as human beings, we have this prefrontal cortex and this ability to be rational. We think about the future, we think about the past.

Jamie Tall (37:47.276)
Ehh...

RBK Kaleidoscope (38:12.974)
But really, I believe the thing that's kept us on this planet for 125,000 years is our ability to create love for one another through a medium of vulnerable communication. And I think that that's been happening since we started. I look at when we're born, doctors smack us in the ass, we cry, we know two things. We know love and hunger. And so what we don't know at that point is trust. And so trust to me

I think we learn that when love is broken. And that's how we understand what trust is. When we are hurt, when the yang of love, the yang and the yang, love being one side, pain being the other, that's when we experience what trust truly is. And so it is interesting to me to put value into trust because it is also an admission that pain is a part of our process, just as much as love is. And so...

When I can keep it that simple It is that when I'm vulnerable you now have I Have I have honored you? by giving you space to be able to hurt and So the trust part becomes important now everybody part of the human condition is Every human being that is in my life is gonna let me down one way or another It's inevitable and I'm gonna do the same for them

who I want to be as a human being. I just want to be able to, I don't do this, but I want to. I want to be able to look at that person and say thank you for being human, because that hurt, you know what I mean? And honor the fact that we are in this relationship that is very well-earned. And I'm a very closed off person, and I don't let a lot of people in. A lot to do with my own history. But if you've earned the space to hurt me, then that means you've earned the space to love me.

And if I can love you back, then we've created something that transcends space and time. And that is the evolution of the human experience, in my opinion. So what I hear from you in our talk today is a really deep, visceral understanding of the importance of vulnerable communication and through a medium of love. And that is just such a cool thing. Especially just in this.

RBK Kaleidoscope (40:36.678)
you know, 40 minutes of talking. So, do I have more questions? Chuck, are you gonna cut me off?

Chuck LaFLange (40:45.282)
Well...

Chuck LaFLange (40:50.054)
Reality is I do have to kind of cut you off now. So Sorry. I was having some new problems with my mic. Yeah. Yeah Let's give it another few minutes. We you can have you can have another good another good back and forth there How's that another good exchange before we get into daily gratitude?

RBK Kaleidoscope (40:50.106)
No? Okay. Jamie. Well, I know you do, but I, but I, but I want to, I want to one more.

Jamie Tall (40:54.019)
Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (41:04.939)
Okay, Jamie.

Jimmy, what does it look like? You got, I don't know how old you are, but let's assume we live to 80. The future is unwritten. So I have a theory. There is yesterday, fictional. Completely one perception of a 360 degree circle that we see based on where we're at that time, which makes it mostly fictional.

We have tomorrow, which is completely fictional. Anything we come up with, it's unwritten. What we have right now, the only thing that really exists is the right now, as we live. The only way we access that is through emotion, through feeling, through sensory. An old saying, you have to lose your mind to come to your senses. In other words, the cognitive mind keeps us from being in the moment as the earth is spinning around the sun. So when we are in emotional connection, we are in connection with the entire organic world, the universe itself.

How do you want to write your future? What does it look like? And I don't need like the whole thing, but there's an understanding from, I like to think from an emotional perspective of who I wanna be moving forward and how I want to be with those people that I love. So what does that look like for you?

Jamie Tall (42:25.89)
Um, it definitely looks like prioritizing for me. Prioritizing where I want to spend my time because time is the most valuable thing that you can give someone or something. And yes, absolutely. So, um, prioritizing what s- where God is directing my steps to spend my time.

RBK Kaleidoscope (42:38.118)
Without refund, yeah.

Jamie Tall (42:54.398)
I feel like is the greatest act of love.

RBK Kaleidoscope (42:54.51)
Great answer.

Oh my God. And that's it. I mean, honestly, like I guess I ask these questions with an idea of what I want to hear a little bit, which is probably arrogant, my part. And, you know, and like, you know, when you ask me how I want to write my future, it isn't about T4s, or I guess in states it's not T4s. It isn't about tax slips or property or what I'm driving. It's about looking back at the rest of my life knowing I don't regret.

Jamie Tall (43:07.118)
Yeah.

RBK Kaleidoscope (43:26.042)
And I did everything I can to love everyone I could and be an agent of peace for everyone that I encounter. And it's just really that simple. And how that happens, I have no idea. And I don't really care. I just know that that's what I want. And if I want that, then it's possible. My potential is unlimited, just as like yours, Jamie. And yours, Chuck. And I know that as long as I can appreciate a sunset, then I can appreciate life itself. The lens of beauty is my choice.

And so now I'm gonna stop because I can go on probably another 40 minute rant on that alone Chuck knows me too. Well, I see it

Chuck LaFLange (44:02.414)
Thank you for not making it weird. Thank you, because I was going to have to cut you off. It was going to get really awkward. And here we go. Here we go. I'm going to give Jamie, before we do daily gratitudes, because this conversation. And by the way, I think I have spoken less in this episode than any episode ever in the history of the show. And to both of you, wow, great job. It's not often that I don't feel compelled to say something. And wonderful.

RBK Kaleidoscope (44:15.078)
Yeah, please.

Chuck LaFLange (44:32.068)
As I'm sitting here listening...

RBK Kaleidoscope (44:32.251)
Usually you're correcting me or saying I'm doing something wrong.

Chuck LaFLange (44:36.718)
Or cutting you off from a tangent, right? Let's be honest. So Listen Jamie seems as the whole theme in this has been the struggle. I feel Asking you one question of my own and that is to If you could say to people that are at whatever stage in whatever Recovery they are in or whatever is going on in their life when they're facing struggle. What do you got to say to them?

Jamie Tall (45:06.534)
Keep it moving. Just keep it moving. I mean, tough times are gonna come. They're not gonna stop coming. I wish I could tell you that you're gonna have a peace free existence, you know, a peace existence. Like it's just everything's just gonna be wonderful. But honestly, I will tell you that the further that I get into recovery, the more struggles and challenges that I run into. I just am better equipped at handling them now because of the things that I've learned. So,

RBK Kaleidoscope (45:28.11)
Ha ha ha!

Jamie Tall (45:36.49)
Always keep it moving, get back up, keep going. Don't put a lot of time into other people's negativity and what they think. It's your life, it's between you and God, and you and your family, and just keep it moving.

Chuck LaFLange (45:54.934)
Awesome. Okay, you could have like five seconds.

RBK Kaleidoscope (45:56.607)
I think there's a big difference there. Five seconds. I think a big part of that, Jamie, and I'm imposing, but also I think you're a lot better equipped because of where you come from, where your heart's coming from. And I think that's a big difference from, you know, before you found this journey, because you know where your heart's coming from now. It's not a mystery. So I'll just stop there.

Chuck LaFLange (46:20.842)
Right? OK, well said. Sorry, Jamie, the dynamic is such that I have to make sure that I'm on top of this guy all the time, right? Otherwise, you know, love you, Ryan. You know it's true. Yeah. Yeah, listen, that takes me to my favorite part of the show, and that is the daily gratitudes. Jamie, of course, let's start with you, what you got for some gratitudes today.

Jamie Tall (46:30.246)
Gotcha.

RBK Kaleidoscope (46:31.954)
I talk a lot. I know.

Jamie Tall (46:44.706)
I am grateful to be able to hang out with you guys and just share experience and unpack some things and perspective and sharing it with the world.

Chuck LaFLange (46:57.478)
Awesome, awesome. Ryan, what you got for some gratitude?

RBK Kaleidoscope (47:04.166)
Uh, so today I'm, I'm really grateful because I think that this, this talk we, we just did, I think it has a potential to impact a lot of people in a lot of different places in their recovery, outside of the recovery, in their humanness. And um, and I think that Jamie sharing her vulnerabilities is, is going to have a huge impact in people that we'll just never meet, never know exist.

and their kids and their moms and their brothers and uncles and all that. And so I'm just, this has been an episode about being an agent of peace. And I think we all exemplify that in this one. I'm just super grateful. Jamie, I'm super grateful for you coming on. I was excited about this. Like I said, I watched some of your stuff and I'm a huge fan. So it is, yeah, I'm, I feel like a little teenage boy at a new Kids on the Block concert.

Chuck LaFLange (48:02.51)
Ah ah ah ah ah ah ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff f

RBK Kaleidoscope (48:03.658)
Oh, and my beautiful wife and kids.

Jamie Tall (48:04.347)
Thank you.

Chuck LaFLange (48:08.002)
Cool, I didn't want to have to edit that in later for you. Okay, right, so. Um, for myself guys, I am absolutely grateful for this conversation, it's amazing. Jamie, having you as a part of my life has been just profound in its own way, right? So, absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, I'm your next ex, so, you know, I'm grateful for that too.

RBK Kaleidoscope (48:09.071)
always.

Yeah

RBK Kaleidoscope (48:32.479)
Ha ha! Ha ha ha!

Chuck LaFLange (48:32.734)
Um, there's an ongoing thing there, guys. It's not, that's not just me being creepy. That's like an ongoing thing. So she just, yeah. Anyway, I kids, I kid. Um, I'm also grateful to every single person who continues to watch, listen, like, share, comment, do all the things down at the bottom. Um, because every time you do any one of these things, you're getting me a little bit closer to living my best life. My best life is to continue making a humble living, spreading the message.

RBK Kaleidoscope (48:38.838)
You're a long way from Athens, buddy.

RBK Kaleidoscope (48:43.502)
Ha ha ha!

Chuck LaFLange (49:02.306)
such as this. If you're in active addiction right now, today could be the day, today could be the day that you start a lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call in a detox, go to a meeting, go to church, do whatever it is you have to do to get that journey started because it is so much better than the alternative. And if you have a loved one who's suffering an addiction right now, you're just taking the time to listen to this amazing conversation. If you could just take one more minute of your day and text that person, let them know they're loved. Use the words.

Jamie Tall (49:32.898)
You are loved.

RBK Kaleidoscope (49:32.919)
You are loved.

Chuck LaFLange (49:35.606)
That little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings them back. Beauty. I said 40 minutes. We only went 49.