Mike Miller is a certified trauma therapist, and cofounded the Yatra Trauma Centre. In this rereleased episode, we discuss some of the nuances involved in navigating what can be stormy waters when your partner has unaddressed trauma.
Visit www.a2apodcast.com/231 for links to watch or listen on all platforms, as well as for more about Mike and the Yatra Centre.
Chuck (00:02.922)
Hey listeners, welcome to another edition of The Ashes to Awesome podcast. I'm your host, Chuck LaFlange And today in studio, I am with Mike Miller yet again, from the Yatra treatment center out in Phuket, Thailand. How you doing today, Mike?
mike miller (00:14.753)
I'm good Chuck. Thanks for having me back. Happy to be here.
Chuck (00:16.962)
Thanks for coming on, man. Thanks for coming on. So, well, we just talked for an hour before recording, so hopefully we didn't lose all our great content or use up all our great content, but I don't think so, I don't think so. So, to the listeners, I reached out to Mike earlier in the week. I really wanted to do something that, an episode on something that I do get messages about from people, and it's about, well, I'll just say.
My partner's trauma is ruining our relationship. And that's what we're gonna call this episode, where it goes, how it evolves. We'll see, Mike tends to rant a little bit here and there. So who knows how the conversation evolves, but. I think, Mike, why don't we just get right into it and kind of kick that off. So if somebody says to you, hey, my partner's trauma is ruining our relationship. How does that conversation go?
mike miller (00:53.337)
guilty as charged.
mike miller (01:07.809)
Um, well, I, uh, gently at first, I think, because, you know, as we were talking about beforehand is, um, we can fall into that trap of sort of like, uh, like being a bit blaming of stuff. And, um, the thing about someone's trauma, really ruining the relationship, what they're meaning is like the, um, behaviors that they are.
left with because trauma isn't what happened it's what you're left with and it usually shows up one of two ways physiologically so like people who have
you know, like elevated heart rates, high blood pressure, you know, nightmares, flashbacks, et cetera, or it's gonna show up relationally. And so what that could be is, you know, I've been betrayed and I'm in a relationship with you, so I don't trust you, and so I can't communicate clearly with you, I'm afraid to talk, I'm suspicious of you, so I wanna check your phone, I wanna do a lot. Well, that behavior to you is like, you know, looks like jealous behavior and you're driving me crazy, but it's me just trying to keep myself safe.
Chuck (01:47.49)
Good.
mike miller (02:10.187)
So it's a, you know, compensatory safety behavior that's because of my betrayal trauma. Now...
Chuck (02:20.162)
Okay, and I wanna interrupt there. I think you hit it right on the head, right off the bat. When people say trauma, typically you're thinking of some horrible, violent, dramatic thing that's happened to them. And I think trauma, especially when it comes to relationships, the one would be that what my ex has did to me or whatever, not necessarily violent either, right? Whether it was cheating or some other sort of maladaptive behavior that affects us, that relationship in a negative way. You're bringing that.
mike miller (02:22.85)
Yeah.
Chuck (02:48.138)
quote unquote baggage into this relationship now. And I think, so go ahead, it's interesting that that's kind of what you use as an example there.
mike miller (02:56.533)
Yeah, sure. So I mean, so that's one of the things like a lot of a lot of what I run into talking about trauma is that sort of the misunderstandings of it or the myths about it, not knowing what trauma is or, you know, thinking it's like, oh, I was in a plane crash. I was abused or assaulted or something like that's the trauma. It's like, no, those are traumatic experiences, possibly depending on your level of resilience and how you
react to those things. Trauma is what you're left with, right? So if I was attacked or abused, I'm gonna be left with possibly fear. Like I say, physiological things, I might get like anxiety or panic attacks. If I've been betrayed by someone, then yeah, I'm probably gonna have a hard time trusting people and I might put up barriers or walls, or I might go the flip side, which is like I become boundary-less and I just like hop into like.
Chuck (03:29.152)
Yeah.
mike miller (03:52.181)
you know, sexual relationships with someone really quickly, because what I really need is like that validation and love and everything. You know, so people tend to go one way or the other, like either like super boundary building that wall and sometimes build the wall so high that they're like trapped inside this sort of like self-made prison or they just tear down all the walls and go quite boundaryless and you can't really predict because this is not a conscious decision that people are making about how they're going to behave. This is their autonomic nervous system.
So their automatic nervous system deciding in those sort of like fight, flight, freeze, fawn, like what are the responses to the trauma going to be? They're not deciding that their nervous system does based on what it thinks is going to keep them in like being able to survive in that moment, right? So
Chuck (04:40.294)
And again, that's interesting because you say those things, and I know it firsthand, as you know, I wrestle with some trauma myself, but that's these crazy violent things that have happened to me, that that's where my trauma comes from. And so yeah, those psychosomatic responses, or somatic responses, I guess you would say there, right? Yeah, but again, when it comes to these kind of, I'll say more minor traumas, but.
mike miller (04:58.849)
Somatic, yeah.
Chuck (05:06.962)
I say that with some trepidation, because it's not minor to the person experiencing it all, who's been cheated on, who's been whatever. So yeah.
mike miller (05:12.581)
Sure.
mike miller (05:16.129)
We call it the difference between what we call big T, like capital T, which is those life threat dramas, versus the small t, which tend to be relational or developmental, like if it happened as a kid, could be complex, like if things happen over and over again. But there's not necessarily a life threat, and yet my nervous system is interpreting it the same way, cumulatively, as if it was a big T life threat, right? The example I think I probably use, because I use it all the time,
Chuck (05:20.755)
Okay. Yeah.
Chuck (05:40.875)
Yep.
mike miller (05:46.043)
we were talking the first time, if my dad is an alcoholic and he comes home and when his car pulls into the driveway and he walks in the house, sometimes he's a happy-go-lucky drunk guy and sometimes he's like verbally violent, abusive, angry, like as soon as his car pulls into the driveway my nervous system just goes into like
Chuck (05:51.29)
Mm-hmm.
mike miller (06:11.549)
response mode to that right so I might fight like but he's my dad so I'm probably not going to fight him really right I'm a kid you know in this scenario so what might I do I might flee I might want to run out the back or hide under the bed or do whatever or I might fawn which fawning is more like um oh hey dad how was your day here I got you a drink here's your slippers like that kind of stuff like because you know he's not going to put the target on me if I'm being nice to him um I don't make a conscious decision about how I'm going to respond to that like my nervous system
Chuck (06:14.091)
Of course.
Chuck (06:17.67)
Yeah, yeah.
Chuck (06:32.108)
Yep.
mike miller (06:41.403)
it'll keep you safe and it might be based on past instances. You know, and so my nervous system is interpreting that car pulling up as if it's a plane crash, as if it's because it represents a threat to my safety. Right. So, um, if, if it's a partner who's cheated on me in the past.
Chuck (06:56.022)
Yeah.
mike miller (07:02.805)
And then I go into the next relationship and I start getting like anxious when my partner's not around my new partner, who's never cheated on me by the way. And I might, you know, in this scenario, I might, uh, you know, just get, get this like panic, this sort of, um, heart rate goes up, adrenaline cortisol in my body when, when that partner is out of sight. So I might want to take measures to try to control that, which would be like, let me see your phone. Where'd you go? Who are you with that kind of stuff? Um,
That's like just my nervous system sort of like perceiving them being out of my sight as a threat to my safety. So like I get into these maladaptive compensatory behaviors that here's the thing, a lot of the times they bring me exactly what I'm afraid of. So I've been abandoned by someone and betrayed by someone. So I don't want this person to go anywhere. So I behave in these ways that ends up driving them away.
Right? So that's the like your trauma is ruining my relationship. And it's like, yeah, it's ruining my relationship. It's it's, you know, creating all this anxiety for me and all of this stuff. And like, yeah, it's when you're the partner.
It's incredible. It's like living with an addict too, right? Like I can understand why an addict uses drugs, but like the behaviors like really, pardon my language, really shit to live with, right? Like it comes with like a bunch of crap behaviors. And when someone has untreated trauma, it also comes with crap behaviors because they're doing everything to kind of make themselves feel safe and soothe themselves, but it can do that at the expense of the other person's needs, right?
Chuck (08:15.306)
It's very, yeah.
Chuck (08:21.975)
Yeah it is.
Chuck (08:35.734)
Wow, wow. And it's funny, I have to say I'm very guilty of this. I have zero tolerance for jealousy, right? So, and now you're really making me rethink some of my own behavior when dealing with those behaviors, right, and looking back at some of my last relationships, going, well that was honestly come by, right? And you know, and my own experiences with trauma, right, why maybe I should be a little more considerate of that, right, and you know. So now that said.
mike miller (08:50.147)
Yeah.
Chuck (09:05.698)
How does a person deal with that? Right, in a healthy way, you know, yeah.
mike miller (09:07.549)
Well, okay, so there's the it's again, you can draw that parallel between like living with an addict and living with someone who's traumatized, who's not, who isn't treating it or doing something about like being able to self regulate. Like, I can understand why a drug addict uses drugs.
like, you know, whether it's trying to medicate or whatever it is. But that doesn't mean I necessarily have to agree to have unacceptable behavior in my life. So it's like I can understand it, but do I have to accept it? And I think, you know, if I have a jealous partner, it's like, oh, actually, that's coming from your betrayal trauma. And I get that. And yet I still don't want to live with it. Like, that can be really hard. So I think that, yeah.
Chuck (09:24.632)
Yep.
Chuck (09:32.654)
Fair enough, right.
Chuck (09:46.463)
Which is fair, which is fair, right? Yeah, I think.
mike miller (09:49.257)
But at that point, I think what we do is much like the love model when it comes to the addiction stuff is we're like, okay, you're displaying this behavior. I have a sense it's probably because you're trying to make yourself feel safe. I can't assure you enough because this isn't like a logical thing. This is like a different part of the brain. This is yeah, it's amygdala, you know, stress response stuff. This isn't cortex like higher logic reasoning rational stuff.
Chuck (10:08.878)
It's not rational. Yeah.
mike miller (10:17.861)
they're not choosing to push people away. So like if even if I say like I can't assure you enough to make you feel safe, maybe we need to get you some help in some way. Like you know and this is where trauma therapy comes into it. Now is the person going to be willing to take that on just like is an addict willing to go like oh yeah I do need treatment like not always like they don't always agree that they have a problem because you know this is something that they're doing to keep themselves safe and if you're saying we're going
Chuck (10:39.21)
Yeah.
mike miller (10:47.393)
like, oh, now I have no control. I'm just going to feel like adrift and lost and not really having any anchor point to keep me kind of safe, right? So I think you can try to love and support them, but we can't make anyone do anything, right? So that's the tough part when it's any of these kinds of interventions.
Chuck (11:04.99)
No, fair enough, fair enough, right? So-
Chuck (11:10.626)
So let me reword that though, and really put the screws to you on this one, Mike. This is a partner that I've decided that I wanna do this with, right? That I'm gonna take the time and I'm gonna be patient. And I think in this instance, you can't really say history because if, in this particular circumstance, you're typically talking about a newer relationship if it's somebody that's, whose traumas you're starting to deal with. But what if I've decided, okay, this is the person that I really, I love this person, I want this to work.
mike miller (11:12.601)
Mmm. Okay. I'm going to go ahead and put this on the side.
Chuck (11:40.994)
How can I navigate that? What can I do as that person to try and, you know, to try and steer that person in the right direction and try and get them to some help or are there things I can say, things I shouldn't say? Take it from there.
mike miller (11:53.177)
Well, I mean, these are very generalized answers to very individualized situations. Because I mean, if you and I experience the exact same trauma, traumatic event, whatever that is. So my mistake, not the same trauma, the same traumatic event.
Chuck (12:01.023)
Yes. Yep.
mike miller (12:11.949)
We could have completely different responses to it, including one of us might have no response to it, it might be totally fine, and someone else might be like really burdened by some stuff. So I don't wanna make, and each person, when it's like, oh, could I broach this subject with them? It's like, well, it depends who you're dealing with, how you broach the subject. You know, we would have to be quite gentle if we're dealing with trauma stuff, because trauma stuff is generally about safety.
You know, so it's sort of generalized, but I think there's a thing called co-regulation, right? And that is that, have you ever been in a room with someone who's like super anxious? Yeah, what does that feel like for you to be in a room with them?
Chuck (12:44.253)
Okay.
Chuck (12:50.11)
Oh yeah, of course, yeah.
Chuck (12:55.138)
I'd get anxious myself, right? So I don't know. And actually, it's either that or annoyed. I'll be honest, right? Come on, chill the fuck out, right? I get in language, but yeah, it does, yeah.
mike miller (12:57.173)
Yeah, right. Yeah.
Yeah, sure. But it impacts you, right? Yeah. So then what's it like to be in a room with someone who's like just super calm?
Chuck (13:13.238)
definitely impacts you. And typically, that would, I think that's probably an easier question to answer because yeah, there's gonna be a lot of difference in response to that. I think almost everybody is gonna experience some calmness as a result. Yeah, yeah, so. Mm-hmm.
mike miller (13:22.542)
Sure.
Yeah, so that's the thing. It's being around someone who's calm is calming. Being around someone who's anxious can be anxiety provoking or like you say irritating, annoying, et cetera. So one of the things it's called co-regulation. So one of the ways that I can affect your nervous system responses is to...
regulate my nervous system when I'm with you and act calm and try to bring it down a bit so that we can have get you back when your nervous system is out of the stress response out of the fight flight freeze stuff.
and you're actually able to access your cortex again because you're feeling calm and relaxed in your body, then maybe we could have that discussion. Trying to have a discussion with someone who's in a stress response, like that's not the part of their brain that's online. So it's really hard to kind of logic them out of stuff. Like, hey, this isn't really working for me. They're just like.
to them it's like this is necessary for survival just like saying to a drug addict like oh you know what like if you go smoke crack that doesn't really work for me they're like they're not going to probably go oh I'll quit then like you know they might want to but they're not it's not that simple right it's a very complex thing yeah it's a survival mechanism right so you know it becomes very difficult to navigate and I think one of the things might be like
Chuck (14:28.826)
Yeah, that's not gonna be the thing. Yeah, yeah, right, so.
mike miller (14:39.909)
I would be willing to go through this process of therapy with you or to support you in it or you know like if you're willing to do that stuff but you know like being calm, breathing, regulating yourself might help to regulate them so that you can have that conversation but again it's very individualistic. It's like how do you...
people get defensive when you challenge them on behaviors that aren't necessarily conducive to a great relationship, right? So it's tough. And I kind of boil it down and make it quite simple. Like what are the two ingredients you need for a healthy relationship?
Chuck (15:10.146)
Yeah.
Chuck (15:19.406)
trust communication. I've thrown it out there. Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
mike miller (15:21.869)
to healthy people.
mike miller (15:25.761)
Right? So if I have someone who's in a trauma response.
whenever I walk out of the house and they get jealous of me, I can't not walk out of the house, but they need to do something about that. Otherwise, the way that I have to deal with it is just shut down my life and never be out of their sight and be controlled. And so that doesn't work for me. And then what happens is I get less healthy if I move, like, you know, people watching this on video will be able to see it, but if I have someone who's at sort of the height of health and someone who's not really healthy, like the healthy person is gonna be like,
Chuck (15:45.198)
Of course not. Yeah.
mike miller (15:59.687)
like that doesn't work for me, they're gonna set a boundary and walk away. But if you're, you know, if you start kind of like putting up with if you accept unacceptable behavior you're going against your own boundaries and you get to be probably unhealthy too. What you want to do is encourage them to get healthy. You can't control it. It's hard to do. Yeah, I think it's.
Chuck (16:21.706)
I think there was a default though, I think you said it well, that calm would be the first thing that you wanna do when you approach it, right? And if I heard you right, not doing it while the behavior is happening, not approaching that subject while the behavior is happening, right? So, you know, wait till later on, and you know, when we're watching a movie together or something and say, hey, you know what, earlier, you know, maybe, you know, in a calm way, right? Kind of bringing that up, you know.
mike miller (16:25.453)
Hmm, yeah. Yeah, for sure.
mike miller (16:37.229)
Yeah, well.
mike miller (16:46.261)
Yeah, I always encourage people to have the conversation while you're not in the middle of two people that are like, sort of elevated responses to it, right? Because you'll just bounce off each other and you'll just end up escalating it even more. So taking time to away from that and having it in a neutral time when the person isn't in the behavior and like, and doing it in a boundary way. Like, you know.
Chuck (16:58.973)
Emotionally, yeah, of course.
mike miller (17:15.557)
There's a thing called I statements, right? And it's in it's a form of assertive communication. It's in every assertiveness communication program you could ever go into. It's sort of formulaic. I feel blank when you blank. Because blank. Yeah. Could we possibly do this differently in the future? So like when you search my phone.
Chuck (17:18.079)
Okay.
Chuck (17:32.426)
Yep, as opposed to.
Chuck (17:39.362)
Okay.
mike miller (17:43.781)
I feel violated, disrespected, hurt, whatever. You know, I feel hurt because I feel it's violating my privacy. In the future, could you just ask me where I was or could you, you know, like, I don't know what the answer to that one would be, like, what would be a preference because it would be for each individual person.
Chuck (17:48.566)
Mm-hmm.
Chuck (18:01.898)
Yeah.
mike miller (18:05.389)
But again, at the end of the day, the person with the traumatic responses needs to treat the trauma in some way and get regulated. So one of the things you could do, if we're talking about regulating your nervous system, you don't necessarily have to say, hey Chuck, I think you need to go and do some trauma therapy.
Right? Which if Chuck could hear that, that would be maybe a great thing. But what you could say is like, Hey Chuck, I was wondering if you'd be interested in doing some yoga with me or doing some breath work or doing some Tai Chi or doing some mindfulness practices. I'm thinking about getting in it. Would you like to do that? Because that stuff helps to regulate the nervous system. So they're not in that stress response all the time, right? Like any good trauma therapy, trauma therapy tends to come in like three phases.
Chuck (18:23.23)
Yeah.
Chuck (18:43.082)
Aha, okay.
Chuck (18:49.813)
Okay.
mike miller (18:50.917)
And one of those phases is stabilization or depending on what sort of model it is like resourcing and a lot of that stuff is full of like mindfulness based stuff. Because if you're not in a relaxed body.
How do you feel safe? Right? So how do I regulate my nervous system? So could you offer to be like, hey, you know what? Like I was thinking about doing some like joining a yoga class. Would you be willing to do that with me? Now they might not be willing to. It's a tough situation, right? Does that make sense?
Chuck (19:07.374)
Mm-hmm.
Chuck (19:23.07)
Yeah, yeah, but I do like that idea. It does actually, it makes a lot of sense, right? I mean, you don't even necessarily have to say, hey, this is what it's about. Make it about me, right? Hey, I'm gonna check this out because I think it's gonna help me out. Wanna jump into this with me maybe and maybe it'll help us both, you know, through some stuff or whatever. And definitely a better way to approach it, you know, for sure, for sure, you know, yeah, yeah. I like that.
mike miller (19:37.945)
Yeah.
mike miller (19:42.446)
I mean, I guess another sort of direct way where you sort of take the trauma can be such a big word and what I again what I'm doing when I say like it's your trauma is I'm locating the problem in you. Right. So instead of that, if I locate like our relationship is having some struggles right now.
perhaps we could go to a counselor together or we could do therapy together. Maybe someone could help us find a way to work through this because, you know, I am committed to making this work, but this behavior is making it really tough. Like, can we find a way? And then through that, maybe that kind of guides them into like, Oh, the therapy process is actually good. It's helpful. And, you know, maybe if that therapist is.
good at doing assessments, they'd probably be like, oh, it looks like you got some trauma that needs to be addressed. And so then maybe we go away from couples counseling and into like individual stuff. Like, you know, that stuff should all be in an assessment anyway, probably.
Chuck (20:39.606)
I mean, they're tricky waters to navigate regardless, right? I, geez, man, right? You know, but, well, it's...
mike miller (20:42.093)
For sure, yeah. Well, if we have someone, if we're dealing with someone with betrayal trauma, if I can be perceived as being critical of them.
like I can re-traumatize unintentionally, of course, right? But then the option is then to like walk on eggshells and just let that behavior go because I don't wanna hurt their feelings. And it's like, what's the balance in that, right? It's really, really tough. And usually by the time someone's looking for like, when they say, you know, if we use the title.
Chuck (20:59.575)
Yeah.
mike miller (21:14.081)
my partner's trauma is ruining my relationship. Like if you're saying that, you're probably at a spot where you need some type of intervention to like make that change because that's a pretty strong statement, right? If it's to that point, you're like, okay, we need to do something about this. Maybe it's just an adult conversation saying like, look, like, you know, if we use the example of the jealousy thing, you know, cause we've used that a couple of times, your jealousy and...
Chuck (21:26.134)
Yeah, it is.
mike miller (21:42.293)
you know, checking my phone or, you know, asking me where I am every two minutes or whatever. You know, it's really, it's really getting on top of me. It's too much. And I think that we need to do something about it. I'm willing to work with you through it, but you've got to do the work too, because you're the one displaying this behavior. I can't do that work for you. You know, it's tough, but being willing as a partner to participate in it might be sort of like a olive branch or something, right?
Chuck (22:01.866)
Of course. Yeah, yeah.
Chuck (22:10.658)
Yeah, fair enough, fair enough. So it's funny, because the last episode I recorded with Ryan Baffgate for Classical Wednesdays, that'll be airing either tomorrow or yesterday, depending on when I get this episode out, I'm not sure which yet. But this week anyway, guys, to the listeners, what did we call it? We called it, my partner's in an early recovery, what now? So.
Now, you've really got my mind turning here about the correlation between these two episodes, right? So if my partner's in early recovery, well, no, I'll say me. If I'm in early recovery, and here's something I see a lot of in the social media groups that I'm a part of in that, and why we brought that episode up, actually, was, for instance, if I go into the partner's and spouse's Facebook group, I will see time and time again, well, my partner's sober now, but he's still an asshole.
mike miller (23:02.637)
Yeah, still got all the...
Chuck (23:03.582)
He's minimizing all of the trauma that he's caused for me and saying, well, get over it because I'm better now. So now there's a dynamic that really, where these two episodes kind of clash, not clash, but combine, right? Wow, and I'm just thinking about how does that, you know, as a person who's in recovery, which is kind of the place that I have to go to because that's a place I can relate to, how do I say to my partner?
mike miller (23:10.233)
Hmm.
mike miller (23:16.197)
Sure. Yeah, yeah.
Chuck (23:31.498)
Right? Well, now you've got trauma now. Now we've got to deal with that too. Wow, man, like there's a whole bunch of shit happening. And now I guess you're getting into professional help territory for sure. Because how does somebody even begin to navigate those waters? Right? Like, you know.
mike miller (23:41.145)
For sure. Well, I mean, one of the things about early recovery from like, you know, we're talking about addiction issues is that there are available like mutual self-help, like peer groups that aren't professional that you can go to and you can start getting your feet underneath you as far as your recovery. There isn't really that for trauma recovery. I mean, there is adult children of alcoholics, which is a trauma-informed 12-step.
group. But again, there's no professionals in the room. It's like mutual self help, you know, I'm there to help me and you're there to help you and we help each other. And so but I think that the guy who's in early recovery is a little bit ahead of the my friend, my partner's trauma is ruining our relationship, because that guy's not even in the recovery process yet, right. And, and I think the thing is like,
Chuck (24:10.987)
Yep, yep.
Chuck (24:16.606)
Yeah, it's a 12 step group and yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Chuck (24:32.51)
Yeah.
mike miller (24:36.049)
you know, my understanding, my belief system is that addiction is a symptom of recovery, any or sorry, a symptom of trauma anyway. So like that guy, when he's using drugs, and you've had to have some form of intervention, or he has come to an awareness to go and get in recovery.
he's got trauma anyway. So now that he's not using his drugs, is that trauma going to come up? And now is his trauma going to ruin the relationship? Like they're so part and parcel of each other, right? And um...
Chuck (25:03.634)
Right, geez, right? Yeah, yeah. And not to be minimized is the things that I did in active addiction, the trauma that that's going to bring up in my partner now, right? And all of the things we talked about, the trust issues, the jealousies, all those things. And I see that a lot, like a lot in the groups of people going.
mike miller (25:11.833)
Hmm. Yeah, could be.
Chuck (25:24.81)
It's no better. Like what about me? What do I, geez, what do I do about me now? Because this is screwed up. So what a crazy waters to navigate, right?
mike miller (25:28.346)
Yeah.
mike miller (25:32.453)
Well, it's really tough because if, you know, if, you know, this is again, my belief system after having worked in the addiction treatment world for 20 years is that it's all fueled by trauma. So if you get a guy who's in early recovery, which basically means you've taken away his medicine but you haven't taken away his pain, then he's going to come out all sideways.
Chuck (25:56.918)
Yeah, yeah. And all too often, trauma therapy is, that's a year away, right, of good solid sobriety. That's, in most cases, right, like that's gonna be a long time off, so, you know.
mike miller (26:02.885)
I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I
I mean, it's definitely one of the schools of thought is that you stabilize recovery before you go near the trauma. It depends on what kind of trauma therapy you're doing. Like is it going to be?
like re-traumatizing, is it gonna be dysregulating? Like if you take something like prolonged exposure therapy has really good results if you stick with it. But a lot of people drop out of it because it gets worse before it gets better, right? And they can't really hang with it. So this is where something like EMDR comes in which you don't use the language, you don't tell the trauma narratives and it can be a bit gentler. But the thing is, how do I get that year of sustained sobriety if...
I have all my pain and it's still, you know, so it's like, it's this chicken and egg thing. It's like really tough. There's different schools of thoughts. I mean, obviously without being self promoting, like at our treatment center with us, we go into the trauma right away because we think that that's driving the whole thing. And you're, you're more likely to be able to get that year of sobriety. If you start putting out some of those fires now that's easier and residential.
Chuck (26:45.602)
I ate. Yeah.
Chuck (26:58.508)
Yep.
Chuck (27:06.402)
And I agree 100% based on my, so based on my very limited knowledge, I do, I believe everything that you're saying, 100% I agree with you. The challenge is, and when I say that's a year away, I don't mean that should be a year away. I say, in reality, quite often, we don't even start addressing the trauma until a year down the road, right? You know, or six months or two years or whatever, you know. Yep.
mike miller (27:19.019)
No, no, no.
mike miller (27:23.509)
Oh, for sure. I didn't start addressing my trauma. I didn't start addressing my trauma until I was nine years clean. And the reason why is because, you know, for all of the things that we've talked about before and you and Devin have talked about and all these guys, the government doesn't pay.
Chuck (27:33.57)
right?
mike miller (27:42.325)
treatment facility, like if it's a government funded treatment facility and thank God they're there, but they don't pay enough money to get actual trained and educated license certified people in there. So a lot of times you're getting like, for lack of a better word, like beautiful hearted but unqualified people, like they don't even know how to flag up trauma. They're like, oh no, it's addiction recovery and you go into you do this and you go to meetings and do that, which is great, but.
where I went, like I got clean and nobody, I was acting out left, right and center in different ways, but not using, and nobody was like, hey, what's fueling that stuff? Oh, it's all your abandonment trauma from your father. Like they were like, you're clean, kudos, good for you. Way to go, champ. You know, like nobody flagged it up as a problem until like years and years of like problematic behavior was like, made me feel like I needed to make some changes. And then I started like getting connected to people
Chuck (28:26.662)
Yep.
mike miller (28:37.763)
were like, it's this stuff. And I was like, oh shit, okay, that's, that's good information. So it really depends on the resources. And so a lot of people getting clean.
Chuck (28:46.334)
And you were lucky, so I know we've done your story before, but you were in the recovery industry for those years, correct, if I remember right? So you were around some enlightened people, right? So if I'm a welder and I'm sober, fair enough, right? But.
mike miller (28:49.998)
there.
Yeah.
mike miller (28:58.305)
Well, I was one of the unqualified at the beginning, right?
Chuck (29:03.83)
But at that nine year mark or whatever, at some point you're around qualified people because you're in that industry. If I'm a welder or a roofer and I'm just trying to stay sober and every day's a fucking, I'm white knuckling it the whole time. How does somebody move into that acceptance of trauma therapy? And we talked about it before we started recording, Mike, especially for men.
mike miller (29:05.901)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah.
mike miller (29:17.153)
Yeah. Well.
mike miller (29:26.637)
Yeah, it's very...
Chuck (29:26.678)
Right? How do we can't even begin in most cases to go, I'm allowed to feel that way from trauma, right? Nevermind start addressing it in a professional way and lay out some cold hard cash to do it. Whoop, that's, you're talking a perfect storm of stuff for that to even happen for most men, right?
mike miller (29:30.625)
No. Yeah. Oh, because...
mike miller (29:38.669)
Yeah. Oh yeah. It's, yeah, it's, it is so tough. And, you know, when we opened our center focused on trauma, two of our first clients, one was nine years clean and one was 14 years clean. And they had both done essentially everything that had been put in front of them as far as like addiction recovery stuff, but they still had all this other stuff going on just like I had when I was at that stage.
You know, and yeah, if you're a welder, how do you... You're doing all the stuff you're supposed to do, but you still feel all messed up. And nobody's like flagging it up as anything because, you know, here's the weird thing is like, yeah, well that's the whole thing. You know, even like, no, it's, I've talked to lots of partners who are like, I actually liked them better when they were wasted because at least they weren't like an asshole and they were more predictable. You know, like...
Chuck (30:13.067)
Yeah.
Chuck (30:16.718)
because you're sober and that's all that matters. Right? Sorry to interrupt you, but yeah.
mike miller (30:33.341)
It's tough because if we, and I think I probably said this before, if I ask the family what's their biggest problem, the family will say, drugs, drinking, like that's their biggest problem. If I ask the person in the addiction, what is the drinking and drugs to you? They go, that's my solution. Like that's how I face the day. That's how I get through it. It's like, okay, well, what are you medicating? Well, that's the trauma.
Chuck (30:55.19)
Do you find though that most people are that enlightened though? Because I wouldn't have told you that. Right? I mean, I would have towards the end of my active addiction. But that's when all the really big T stuff had happened to me was in those last couple of years of like, and then it was like, oh, wow, man, I got to deal with this. So I haven't even begun, even at this point, I haven't even thought about the little t stuff. You know, I'm pretty focused on the big T. So are people that enlightened though? Like when?
mike miller (31:00.35)
No, I mean...
mike miller (31:04.194)
Yeah.
Yeah.
mike miller (31:10.861)
Sure. I-
mike miller (31:16.725)
Yeah, no, for sure. Well, they might. They might not use that language, but like, you know, if you have like a bit of a conversation with them and be like, well, why are you using? They may not say things like the drugs are my solution, but they're going to be like because.
it's too hard to face the day or I get bored or like whatever reason it is. And then the more educated they get around it, cause we do lots of psycho education around trauma, which you need because nobody does it. Like nobody does it. Nobody tells you about trauma anywhere. Um, you know, it's like, again, it's like that plane crash sexual abuse as a kid, like those are trauma, nothing else is kind of thing, which is completely a myth about trauma. Um, so
Chuck (31:43.647)
No.
mike miller (31:58.921)
Once people get educated, then they start to go like, well, actually, I was using to get relief from some kind of pain. They always say it's like relief or reward, right? So like I can get reward from the actual drug itself, but why am I using the drug to get that reward is like I'm getting relief from something, lots of people in like recovery programs will say things like I wasn't comfortable in my own skin, which basically means I had trauma and couldn't fit in. Exactly.
Chuck (32:11.521)
Yep.
Chuck (32:24.111)
That's almost a predictable response when I'm talking to somebody in a recovery episode. That is almost every single time you hear that, right? Yeah, yeah.
mike miller (32:32.573)
Exactly. And when I hear that I go, oh, trauma. Like, why weren't you comfortable in your own skin? Like you're an organism, a human being that, you know, in theory comes from a family that loves you, nurtures you and everything. So you should be comfortable in your own skin. You should feel good enough and have self-esteem, but you don't. So something happened. So to me, when I don't feel comfortable in my own skin, that's a trauma thing. And do people know that? And do they name it? No, of course they don't. Like that's, you know, comes from me being...
you know, an obsessive kind of guy that's like, Oh, trauma, that sort of like resonates with me. Now I'm going to read everything and watch every video and do all kinds of trainings and learn about trauma. So I'm immersed in it. But, you know, of course, people don't use that same language. But to me, that's what's driving the whole thing. So.
Chuck (33:02.574)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
mike miller (33:18.813)
It's really tough, like we said, like you said earlier, like especially with guys, but not just with guys, to be like, oh yeah, I have trauma. Like that's not a normal response. And people might think like, oh, maybe you do, but I don't. And actually that's feedback that I've gotten from people and including people in recovery and stuff. It's like, oh, someone else has a...
Chuck (33:28.66)
Yeah.
mike miller (33:40.145)
it's like weak or you know you're damaged or whatever the stuff is and that stuff never happened to me like I always thought like I wasn't sexually abused as a kid I didn't come from poverty I wasn't in a war zone like I don't have trauma but the whole thing was simply like my parents splitting up when I was young.
Chuck (33:57.358)
Mm-hmm.
mike miller (33:57.497)
and my dad going away, I formed some beliefs about myself, about not being lovable, not being good enough, not being wanted, and then that affected every relationship I was in until I was 40 years old, including relationships with workplaces. Like if a boss like gave me some constructive criticism, I literally walked out of a job and never went back. So I was like, they're gonna fire me. Like he literally was just, yeah, because, because if I, if I, if I get rid of them, they can't abandon me.
Chuck (34:19.086)
You were one of those guys.
mike miller (34:27.285)
Right? So like what I did is like I overcompensated so much like you're not going to hurt me. I'm just going to like I'll pull the chute before you can do it for me. Right? And so I did that around romantic relationships, girlfriends, I did around friends, I did it around workplaces, I did like you name it. That's that was a hallmark of my relationships was I'm not going to let myself get abandoned. I didn't know that's what I was doing.
Chuck (34:28.351)
Yeah.
mike miller (34:51.689)
I had every rational reason like, oh yeah, I can't go out with her anymore because she eats her peas one at a time, or whatever stupid reason I could come up with. But really it was like, I didn't feel safe, so I got to get out. And my trauma probably ruined a lot of people's relationships along the way. And I kind of say it laughingly, but it's like, as I said that, I felt my face heat up and I felt a bit of shame in that, because like, you know, like.
Chuck (34:52.176)
Yeah.
Chuck (35:10.126)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
mike miller (35:19.785)
I wasn't able to hold up my end in those relationships because I wouldn't feel safe. I would talk my way in because I really wanted connection, but then I would get freaked out that I was going to get abandoned, so I'd talk my way back out. Then I'm alone again, yearning for connection, so I'd find the next one, and you know, that kind of stuff, and it was this pattern where I never felt securely attached, and it was all based on abandonment stuff. You know, and then as, like you, as I grew up into an adult and had addiction stuff going on, et cetera.
more sort of big T life threat traumas came along with that stuff, you know, kidnapping, jail, like that kind of stuff all kind of came with that. So.
It wasn't like, oh, this one thing happened when I was six years old and that dictated everything. It was like, well, it dictated some stuff. And then it got me, if I'm not feeling comfortable with being securely attached to people, well, if I drink and do drugs and I'm hanging around people, do I feel more comfortable or do I not care that I don't feel comfortable? Like, why am I doing it? But I'm doing it. So sure. All I know is it worked at the beginning, right? To be comfortable. And then I. Yeah.
Chuck (36:17.391)
I would guess the latter, right? Yeah. Right. Yeah.
I've got to ask Mike, I've got to ask, and being kind of part way into that journey myself, right? And kind of beginning to understand some of the trauma and you know, you picked up on it on our first interview, I've got some work to do, right? You know, as we talked about after we recorded, but right? The feeling when you make those realizations, like that must just be a massive weight off your shoulders.
mike miller (36:30.601)
Hmm.
mike miller (36:37.057)
Yeah. Hey, me too. No judgment in it.
Chuck (36:51.65)
when you come to understand your maladaptive behaviors and kind of get a bigger understanding of, oh, it was that, right? How does that feel, right?
mike miller (37:01.945)
Well, I mean, I think the understanding, well, think about this. So you're a guy who at some point you lost the luxury of denial around addiction and you became acutely aware that you had a problem and you needed to change it, right? At some point. Did you just change it?
Chuck (37:17.738)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, no, it took a while. Yeah, yeah.
mike miller (37:22.561)
No, okay, so then it wasn't a big like, aha moment, everything was lighter and everything was great. The awareness alone wasn't enough until you changed it, right? So like being aware of the problem and not being able to change it because it's like a compulsive way to behave.
Chuck (37:28.397)
Okay.
mike miller (37:38.813)
is actually more painful than not knowing, I think. Like when I was young and using drugs, I was like, woohoo, party time, everything's cool. And then it was like, oh man, I'm like a drug addict, I'm not supposed to be like this. I'm better than what I've become. This is painful, I'm hurting people, I'm getting in trouble, I'm ruining my life. At that point, when I wasn't able to change it, that was misery. When I finally got clean, that was when it was like, and stayed clean, I was like, oh man, like this is.
this is enlightening to me, you know, or not enlightening, lightening of the load that I was carrying. So with the trauma work, it was the same thing. It's like when I became aware of what I was doing compulsively in relationships, it didn't feel like the load was lightened while I kept doing it. Like I had to change that behavior before it was like, oh, fuck, that feels better, right? So it's tough, it's tough when you get stuck there.
Chuck (38:31.562)
Yeah.
mike miller (38:34.881)
Yeah, I see, you know, I'm wondering what's happening for you right now.
Chuck (38:37.23)
Yeah. You just, you said it very well. I mean, you really did. Yeah. Right. So yeah, that is a painful thing for sure. So yeah. Fuck. So on episode, if I don't cry a little bit, right?
mike miller (38:47.257)
Yeah. So I think, you know, so, so when people, yeah, well, I think like in some ways it can be really freeing to be like, Oh, I'm not an asshole who's shitty in relationships.
I'm a guy with trauma and my nervous system is choosing these behaviors because it's a safety thing. I'm not actually consciously choosing this, but I can consciously choose to do the work to stop doing that. Like that can be pretty freeing, but you have to keep that momentum going where like, oh, I have the awareness. Now I'm going to do something about it. And that's where costs to therapy become a barrier. Right.
Chuck (39:16.374)
Yes.
Chuck (39:27.955)
Yeah.
mike miller (39:28.309)
you know, like so many people, like even when people like, there's a, they say, it's a really common saying. When an addict asks for help, it's a small window, right? Like.
If they can score tomorrow, yeah, if they don't have any dope today and they're sitting in that spot where they have that moment of clarity that they talk about, I need help. Well if they wake up tomorrow morning and there's a check in the mailbox, like you've missed that opportunity possibly and you lose the momentum. It's the same thing with trauma therapy. Like when someone gets that awareness and goes, oh my God, it's this stuff. How do we get them involved in that? And the thing about it is...
Chuck (39:37.812)
Get it while the iron's hot, right? Yeah, yeah.
Chuck (39:51.678)
Every time. Yep, yep.
mike miller (40:03.913)
addiction treatment, you know, you could I could call up right now and get someone to bed in Vancouver at a recovery place for free, paid for by the government, like, you know, I don't have that pull, but like the people at work there can have relationships with government, and they can get that person in bed so that they don't die, etc. I don't have that same opportunity for something as sort of quote,
Chuck (40:09.378)
Yep.
Chuck (40:21.493)
Mm-hmm.
mike miller (40:30.729)
niche or specialized as trauma treatment when for me they should be the exact same thing. Like every addiction center should be focusing or at least partially focusing on the trauma. Like to me ideally yeah and so like you know I worked in a lot of recovery places that didn't address the trauma. We would refer people out for the trauma and it was...
Chuck (40:37.282)
100 percent.
Chuck (40:44.086)
have some sort of resource put there. Yeah, yeah.
mike miller (40:56.489)
I just think it's they would have to pay out of pocket for that, you know, or have insurance that would hopefully cover it. Yeah, which is a lot of them don't even cover any mental health stuff, let alone trauma, because it's I mean, they still don't even really have like complex PTSD in the DSM. So it's like a well known.
Chuck (41:01.13)
Yeah. Benefits or something. Yeah.
mike miller (41:20.921)
issue that people are dealing with and there's not even a diagnosis for it. So good luck getting an insurance company to pay for that. So you know it's like this barrier to treatment which is like terrible. For me I wish that you know health plans just public health plans in Canada paid for dental. I wish health plans in Canada paid for mental health. Like why is it only a portion of health? Like no you can go and you can get your heart rate tested but you can't get you know you can't do an assessment for the ace questionnaire to figure out like if you have adverse childhood experiences which
which is probably fueling all of your physical health problems anyway. So, you know, to me, I think I should, should we just run for office, Chuck? Me and you, we'll like, we'll start changing some policies. Yeah, actually in my, in my career up to date, it's always been an asset. And, you know, but if I was going to run for political party, it'd be all the opposition research would take me down hard. So.
Chuck (41:53.918)
Right. Yeah.
Chuck (41:59.118)
Ha ha ha!
It's those background checks, right? Fuck. Right? Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey
Chuck (42:14.863)
Oh yeah, yeah. Absolutely, absolutely.
mike miller (42:18.029)
But you know, it really does come to that, you know, like that people lack resources. So again, how do you get your partner or loved one to even acknowledge that there's trauma stuff? And so, you know, I think one of the things that when it came to addiction stuff, um, I was asked to sit with.
I'm going to maintain their confidentiality. Someone who was the son of someone close to me. He was 17 years old, dabbling a bit in using weed and stuff. This is years ago. And the mother asked me, like, can you sit down with him and talk to him? Because you know, this is Mike, the addiction counselor guy, blah, blah. And so what I did is I actually like just had a conversation with them and said, look, I'm not here to judge you. I don't really have any judgment about what you're doing.
hypocritical of me to have judgment because I was doing that but here I think you need to make some informed decisions so I actually left them with and this is how long ago it was it was a VHS tape of yeah and it was the neuroscience of cannabis use and it was just about like
Chuck (43:21.144)
Dating yourself now, yeah.
Chuck (43:28.532)
Okay. Yeah.
mike miller (43:29.909)
what happens, or not the neuroscience, the science. And a lot of it was neuroscience and things like, he didn't know about cannabis use, like it's fat soluble. What are the two fattiest areas on a male body, like the testicles and the brain cell walls. So the THC goes to the brain cell walls, slows down brain function, blah, blah. I'm not here saying weed's bad or anything. I'm just saying like, make informed decisions. So I just, with him, with no judgment, I just said, here's the information, do what you're gonna do. And I left him with that.
I didn't sit there and like watch over his shoulder while he watched it and he watched it and he got information from it and he started making some changes. I think education is a big thing. So like if your partner has trauma, maybe saying like, Hey, can we sit down and watch, you know, and I can give you like endless, not endless, but you know, a lot of resources of things to watch about trauma, watch the new science of safety and trauma by Seth Porges on YouTube.
There's all kinds of different things. Like watch anything by Gab or Mate or Bessel van der Kolk or whatever. And if you sit down with them and watch it. Yeah. Yeah, I will. Sorry. Yeah. Oh yeah. Sorry, I'm making more work for you. Not only am I going on... Yeah.
Chuck (44:32.382)
Now, I have to interrupt you, Mike. I have to interrupt you. You're going to have to send me some links now at the end of our conversation because I have to put that in the show notes. So, yeah, please do. Yeah. No, no, not if you send them to me. If you send me the links and I don't have to come back and listen for this exactly, and then it's fine. So please send me the links at the end of this so we can put them in the show notes, right? It's... Shh.
mike miller (44:50.997)
Now I'm ranting and setting me up to... Okay, so I'll send you some links. But maybe sitting down and saying like, hey, do you wanna watch this with me? Right? I think this might be something that applies to us in some ways. And then, it's really tough, right? I don't have a cookie cutter answer for people if someone's, again, if we go with the title, someone's trauma is affecting my relationship.
Chuck (44:55.982)
Please do. Please do. Yeah.
Chuck (45:01.526)
Yeah, yeah, check this out, yeah, right?
mike miller (45:20.225)
But we know that there's a way out of it. Like we know that there is. We know that there's a way out of substance use disorders. We know that there's a way out of trauma. And it's not like, you know, it's a journey. You know, like I've been dealing with my trauma since I was nine years clean. And that's like 11 years ago. And...
Chuck (45:22.826)
Yeah, we do.
Chuck (45:34.012)
Yeah.
mike miller (45:39.297)
I still got work to do on it. It's like, but it doesn't impact me the way it did back then. I'm not compulsively acting in certain ways. Like I still get, I have an exaggerated startle response where like, you know, if someone like sneaks up on me or something, like I jump out of my skin, you know, that happens after you've been kidnapped and stuff. So yeah. Yeah.
Chuck (45:41.354)
Yeah, right? Yeah. Of course not. Yep.
Chuck (45:55.094)
I'm, whoa, big time, me in the biggest way. My nephew who lives in the same house as I do, it's constant, like, dude, you can't do that, man. Like, you just can't, because I'll be sitting here recording or otherwise working on the computer with my headphones on and he'll come into the room, he'll come up behind me and I've almost killed him, right? Like, you know, like, yeah, right?
mike miller (46:04.75)
Yeah.
mike miller (46:13.005)
Yeah, so this will be a case of take my advice, I'm not using it, because I told you like I'm, I still deal with that. But the person I was doing with EMDR, or doing EMDR with isn't available to me right now, but I would say this. I've done some processing on that time that I was sort of kidnapped and held hostage, which is like sounds really like kind of over the top, but essentially that's what it was held against my will.
Chuck (46:40.974)
No, I understand.
mike miller (46:43.641)
And so that's, I know there's a direct line between my startle response and that. Like it's a lack of safety when I'm surprised, right? I've done some work on it, but there's more to do. So what I would say to you is if you have that exaggerated startle response is like, when's the first time you remember that happening?
when's the worst time it's happened, when's the last time it's happened, and then you have three different memories, or they might be similar, like the first one might be the worst one, whatever. But those are ways into that memory network where you can process that stuff with EMDR.
and you can get relief from that stuff because it's a nervous system thing, right? So like I say, it's take my advice, I'm not using it because I still need to do more work on it, but it isn't as bad as it used to be for me because I have done some work on it. And as far as all the ways that trauma was impacting my life, that startle response definitely wasn't the worst way it was impacting my life, I'll tell you that. But it's still here today. Like, you know, you can get relief from it though.
Chuck (47:36.078)
Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. I wanna ask you one more kind of on the nose question, or not on the nose, but maybe too specific of a question for what is too general of a question for what needs a specific answer, but for the listener's sake, that partner of somebody who's in early recovery.
and their trauma is not being acknowledged by that person in recovery, but that person in recovery is doing a lot of their own work and that's tough. But if I'm that person, if my girlfriend is now, hey, look, she's sober and there's all sorts of shit we still got to address from what happened while you were using.
mike miller (48:02.638)
Yeah.
Chuck (48:17.77)
What do I do right now if I'm a person with limited resources, if I'm a person that really, like today, I need to do something and I don't have the cash to shell out for therapy, I need to do something for myself right now, what do I do, right? I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie.
mike miller (48:28.172)
ACOA.
ACOA.
Chuck (48:33.586)
ACOA, Define. What's that?
mike miller (48:34.949)
adult children of alcoholics. So, so meaning that like, the where that spawned from was, you know, my parent was an alcoholic, and now I'm an adult. So I'm an adult child of an alcoholic, but
Chuck (48:37.32)
Okay, yeah.
Chuck (48:48.182)
Yeah.
mike miller (48:49.825)
It doesn't have to be that. And what they talk about is dysfunction in families and it's trauma informed and trauma based. And it talks about like inner child work, like younger parts of self and stuff like that, which is like structural dissociation of the personality, which internal family systems therapy deals with. So it's like actually like all over sort of the trauma work, but as a 12 step program, that isn't for an alcoholic per se, it's for like people who are affected by them. There's also
Chuck (49:01.239)
Okay.
Chuck (49:18.434)
So it should be called adult loved ones of alcohol, instead of adult children. Yeah, right, you know, cause it's, yeah.
mike miller (49:20.973)
Sure, yeah. Yeah, just like people go to Narcotics Anonymous, but they don't use narcotics. They're using controlled substances or they're using whatever, right? But the program itself is the only that I know of 12 step program that's trauma informed. There might be other ones, but that's one that's probably the most readily accessible. You can go online, acoa.org, I think.
Chuck (49:28.673)
Yeah.
Chuck (49:39.743)
Okay.
Chuck (49:44.717)
Okay.
mike miller (49:44.905)
And so that's one thing. The other thing is depending on where you live, like, you know, I live in Thailand and there's zero community resources. Like if, if
I wanted to seek that out here. It would all have to be private. But if I was back in Canada, if I was in Vancouver, I would go to a local community services center, addiction centers or whatever it's called. Like they have little addiction services places where you can hook up with a counselor, you can get assessed and they can refer you out. Now, just like all of Canadian healthcare, there's a wait for that, but you can get it subsidized so there's no charge for you. And of course, in your scenario, there was no money.
do. So those are the things that would be kind of free of charge. The other thing I would do is I would yeah I would I would also Google trauma survivor support group something like that. There's also like Naranon, Al-Anon like which are support 12-step support groups for members who are affected by someone else's addiction whether it's narcotics or alcohol or whatever. But
Chuck (50:28.406)
at least a step in the right direction, right? Yeah.
Chuck (50:35.954)
Okay. Yep.
Chuck (50:46.638)
Yep, yeah, of course.
mike miller (50:49.677)
Those aren't trauma informed, but still you're going to hook up with other people who at least will be like, yeah, I've been through that too. Oh, I'm suffering the same thing. You'll feel heard. You'll feel seen. Massive, massive. Just to know like A, I'm not crazy. B, I'm not going through this alone is huge. So you can become part of a group of people. You know, it's easy for me to say, but like ideally, I'm, you know.
Chuck (50:55.966)
relate to that experience, right? Which in itself, huge sense of relief, right? Yeah, yeah, right? Yeah, yeah.
mike miller (51:17.813)
I'm a huge believer in therapy as a therapist. I think it would be a bad career choice if I wasn't. But you know, I've also, I've gained like big gains quickly. So like there are therapies that are like, can get you quick results, things like EMDR. You know.
Chuck (51:22.068)
Yeah.
mike miller (51:37.885)
I think that there's costs to that, but there are places that, including our place, we do sliding scale sometimes depending on what people can afford. We can't do free, you know, but there are lots of different therapists that work on a sliding scale. And if you were to Google in whatever area you were in, local therapists, like there's a lot of databases like, you know, so like EMDR, if you go to like EMDRIA,
mike miller (52:05.057)
They have lists of therapists and a lot of therapists have individual sort of like little ads on the site, kind of like, Hey, this is Mike. And I work on a sliding scale and blah, blah. And some of them will list that stuff. You know, it's, it's not free, but a lot of people will work with people of low incomes and stuff, or they just don't have expendable income because life is very expensive, right?
Chuck (52:19.181)
Okay.
Chuck (52:30.718)
Yeah it is, yeah it is. So we were talking before the show, and it's something I didn't know about you out at Yachtray, and one of the services you offered was online therapy. So if somebody was interested in that mic, what would they do? They'd go to yachtraycenter.com or, you know.
mike miller (52:38.021)
Hmm, yeah, absolutely.
mike miller (52:45.633)
Yeah, they can go to YatraCenter.com or they can email to hello at YatraCenter.com or admissions at YatraCenter.com. It is C-E-N-T-R-E. As I was saying before, I'm like, maybe I shouldn't have chosen that spelling of it. But yeah, they can contact us. And then...
Chuck (52:56.746)
and the center with an R-E, not E-R.
mike miller (53:09.645)
One of the things that would, aside from price, which can be a barrier, obviously, but we would be willing to do some sliding scale stuff as kind of a way to support your listeners because we want to support you. Now that sliding scale only slides down so far because we got bills to pay and we don't want to devalue ourselves. It's on a sliding scale. Yeah. Yeah, good.
Chuck (53:29.118)
Of course, right? Yeah, yeah. And I'm not asking you for a commitment on price right now, Mike. I just thought, hey, if somebody wants to get in touch, that's a conversation. I'll get you in trouble with the wife if we do that, right? So, yeah. Yeah.
mike miller (53:40.065)
We'll do what we can. Yeah, we will do what we can to accommodate that stuff. The only other barrier is time zone stuff, right? So like what time is it where you are right now?
Chuck (53:49.29)
Of course, yep. It is 847 a.m., which I think it makes it 947 p.m. there, right, yeah. Yeah, 13 hours, yeah, so.
mike miller (53:53.489)
And it's, that's correct, Tuesday, August 1st, 947 p.m. Yeah, so what that means is that I tend to see clients in North America.
late for me and early for them, kind of like mimicking the time that we're in right now. I don't, because of that, I don't start work early in the day, which means that if someone is also likes to be a night owl and do early, you know, sessions that would be early for me.
Chuck (54:13.034)
Yeah. Yep.
Chuck (54:22.734)
Probably not a great fit. Yeah, yeah.
mike miller (54:24.681)
Well, I do have another therapist that might be willing to do that, right? But we can see what we can do. We can be quite creative. We try to be client-centered and see how we can meet people's needs. And we're just one resource. There's lots of others. So we can see what we can do.
Chuck (54:34.326)
course.
Yeah.
Chuck (54:40.266)
Absolutely, absolutely. Well Mike, I gotta say, this turned out to be a hell of an episode. I'm really happy that we started out with the question that we did, and it's turned into what it has. I think we covered a lot of ground here, and yeah, I'm really excited about getting this one published and oh, but that does bring us to my favourite part of the show, and that's the Daily Gratitudes. Of course, the Daily Gratitudes are brought to you by the Auditor Centre, so all right. Oh well, we'll play the commercial. Anyway, what do you got for me today for some Daily Gratitudes, Mike?
mike miller (55:09.411)
Um.
mike miller (55:12.573)
I'm grateful for my relationship with my mother. We were talking about a little bit before the show, it's kind of like Wyatt Pofft in the top, I think I probably said that at a different gratitude, she comes up all the time, but she's...
Chuck (55:22.603)
Yeah.
Chuck (55:28.178)
Actually, you know what, Mike? I don't think you have brought in Mom and the Gratitudes yet. So, yeah. Good, good.
mike miller (55:31.629)
Oh yeah. Well, mom is, hands down, mom's my hero. She's also the person that bore the brunt of my addiction more than anyone else. So, that's the double edged sword that sucks about having moms that love you is that they're the ones that get hurt a lot. I'm glad that she can sleep better at night now, knowing that I'm clean. But we're going to Canada two weeks.
Chuck (55:42.25)
Yeah.
Chuck (55:57.274)
With pride too, I imagine. She must be proud. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, continue. Continue, yeah. Yeah.
mike miller (56:01.205)
She says she is, yeah. You know, which, I mean, there's still a part of me that hates hearing that stuff, but yeah, she says she is. And I believe her.
I just don't like hearing it all the time. But no, I love my mom very much. And we're going to Canada in two weeks. It'll be my wife's first trip. So this is like, I think I talked about that in the last episode, but it's very much front of mind right now as we're gearing down our stuff. And I'm very grateful that I have staff that I trust so much that I can leave a treatment center with them and go across the world for a number of weeks and feel quite confident that our clients will be in good hands.
Chuck (56:09.626)
Yeah.
Chuck (56:23.574)
Yeah, you did. Yeah.
Chuck (56:36.17)
No kidding.
Chuck (56:40.31)
Yeah.
mike miller (56:42.036)
Yeah, those are the two kind of big ones right now. So family and staff. Yeah.
Chuck (56:45.142)
Fair enough, eh? Yeah, I was actually speaking to Dr. Lisa about you coming to town, or coming to the country. So you mentioned maybe making it all the way to Calgary. Well, now you gotta. So, right. It's, you know, yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely we'll go for lunch or supper or something like that. She would just absolutely love to meet you, right? So, yeah, right. So I actually, I myself just met Lisa in person the first time, maybe two weeks ago now, you know? And we live 13 minutes apart.
mike miller (56:50.202)
Mmm. Yeah.
mike miller (56:56.858)
We will, yeah we will.
mike miller (57:01.165)
Yeah, for sure. I'd be happy to. Beautiful.
mike miller (57:10.081)
Amazing.
Chuck (57:12.43)
Right? So we've been working together week after week, right? It's just life being what it is, right? Yeah, we live 13 minutes apart and you know, so it's fantastic. We had a great lunch down at, yeah, so. Anyway. Yeah, yeah, right, so. And anyway, the, oh, yeah. I'd love to meet your wife as well, right? So, yeah.
mike miller (57:17.525)
Yeah, of course. Oh, that makes me really happy to hear that you guys got together. That's amazing. And I would be very happy to sit with you guys.
Chuck (57:33.674)
And my final gratitude goes out to the listeners. It's always to you guys, the listeners, whatever you're doing, please keep doing it. If you're on Spotify, watching or listening, drop a comment in there. If you're on YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, TikTok, Instagram, I'm all over the place, right? And don't hesitate to stop and ask a question, give an episode idea if there's something that you want us to talk about.
If you see the brand or if you see the logo, you can ask a question, and whatever platform that is, guys, because every time you do any one of those things, you're getting me a little bit closer to living my best life. My best life is to make a humble living spreading the message. The message is this. If you are in active addiction right now, today could be the day. Today could be the day that you start that lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call in to detox, go to a meeting, do whatever the hell it is you need to do to get that journey started because it is so much better than the alternative.
And if you are the loved one of somebody who is suffering in addiction right now, you've just taken the time to listen to our show. If you just take one more minute out of your day to text that person, let them know they're loved. Use the words.
mike miller (58:32.741)
our luck.
Chuck (58:34.294)
That little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings him back.
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