238-JENN ZINGEL

Chuck LaFLange (00:02.942)
Hello everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds. Welcome to another episode of The Weekend Ramble on the Ashes to Awesome podcast. I'm your host Chuck LaFlange checking in from Krabi, Thailand. And we've got quite the geographic thing happen again this week. My co -host, my beautiful co -host Dr. Lisa is joining us from Cape Town, South Africa. How you doing today, Lisa?

I am doing really good. I'm sorry that I'm late. I'll share it with the whole world. I had our time wrong and thought we weren't starting for an hour after we were, so, but I'm good. I'm good.

You know what? I guess usually we talk for like an hour before we start recording anyway. So...

and it's only half an hour after recording time. So really, we're like a half an hour early. It's all about perspective, right? If we want to look at it that way, yeah. Absolutely, absolutely, right? Okay, yes, yes, yes. And of course, our other guest in Virtual Studio is from your part of the world, Lisa, in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. An old friend of mine, a new reconnected friend of mine, Jenn Zingel from the I Don't Know Yet podcast. How you doing today, Jenn?

I like that. I like it. Yeah, yeah, let's go with that. Let's go with that.

Jenn Zingel (01:12.11)
I'm doing really good. I'm really excited to be here. It's super cool that we just randomly bumped into each other online and within a week had an opportunity to connect. So I'm really excited.

Yeah, hey.

No kidding, eh? The wonders of social media, right? And Lisa, I haven't even told you the story yet. So I noticed that she had liked to post, or I don't know yet had liked to post, I should say. And I was like, oh, what's this? Because I'm always looking at any pages that come up and interact with mine. I'm like, hey, what's this page about? What's going on? So I decided to check it out.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (01:44.19)
And I saw Jen Zingle who thought, no, no freaking way. Right? Like no way. That can't be the same Jen. And sure as shit, they've just got a podcast. I'm like, what's going on? Right? What is this? Right? So and I got I had the opportunity to watch some of it. Really interesting. I like some of the conversations you're having, Jen. It's certainly not your typical recovery podcast. I kind of.

Mm -hmm.

Lisa (01:55.007)
Wow.

Chuck LaFLange (02:09.79)
I don't like using language like that all the time because I don't want to make it sound like it. I think everybody is any kind of one thing, but it stood out apart just because of some of the conversations you're having. So I want to introduce both your show to our audience and you. And typically what we like to do is just to kind of get an idea who you are, maybe get some credibility as to how the hell you end up with a recovery podcast, how I want you on our podcast.

And a great way to do that, that I find, is to ask you just a couple quick questions, starting with, do you remember the first time you tried a substance? First time you got messed up. Okay. Can you tell us about that? And I got a couple other questions that kind of go along with that. So, yeah.

Oh yeah, yeah, sure do.

Jenn Zingel (02:51.47)
Yeah, for sure. So I'm a 12 -stepper. So after kind of entering that and digging into the material, it really, my first using experience, it really all made sense. The first time I ever drank, I was 14. Being a person that was quite heavily bullied in school, I developed a lot of what I referred to as character defects, right? Needing approval of others, just wanting to fit in, people pleasing, all that.

Okay.

Jenn Zingel (03:21.518)
And so I was hanging out with my best friend and these two boys and they had access to the liquor cabinet at home. The parents went home and I was just trying to get these people to think that I was cool. I just wanted to show them how amazing I was. And so the first time I ever drank, I drank an entire bottle of Zambuca in about 20 minutes. And yeah, yeah, I don't remember a lot. I remember...

Oh!

Jenn Zingel (03:50.286)
through a field. I remember puking in a wastebasket. I remember crying mercilessly to my best friend to call my mom, being a great friend she did. And then my mom showed up to come get me and I was just like I remember just the room was spinning. I felt so sick. I'm pretty sure I got alcohol poisoning the first time I ever drank.

Uh oh.

Jenn Zingel (04:11.63)
Um, and then she's like, it's fine. It's fine. And so brought me home and put me in bed and I got up the next day and I'm like, why do people do that? Like, I'm, I'm literally never going to do that again. That was an awful experience. And then a year or two later in high school, still trying to fit in, there was a field party with drinking and someone offered to get me some, I had a time and I was like, no, no, no. Like I've tried alcohol. It's awful. And it was interesting. I remember she said, well, what happened? I explained it to her. She's like, oh, well that's cause you didn't drink. Right.

And I'm like, wait, what's the right way to drink? And she's like, well, you gotta make, right?

Oh god.

She kind of has a point there, right? A whole bottle of Zambooga in the first crack is not really, you know, but, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's probably not right.

Jenn Zingel (04:48.878)
Oh, God. She's like, you gotta eat first. You gotta have water in between each one. And she gave me all these pointers and I went out. And the second time I drank was the beginning of my addiction because it was like I could breathe for the first time. It's the best way that I can describe it. My desire to be liked and approved of and accepted, all of that went away.

personality actually came out. I was funny and charming. Everybody liked me. I just felt good for the first time. And so that's, yeah.

So I'll ask it about your second time, because it sounds like that's really like your first time is just kind of a one -off kind of waste of experience, you know what I mean? So I'll ask my follow -up question about the second time you're doing it. Is it with the benefit of hindsight now and of course the work you've done in your recovery that you realize how it made you feel, or at the time were you self -aware enough and introspective enough to understand how it made you feel, like really understood what it was doing for you?

Yeah.

Oopsie.

Jenn Zingel (05:52.366)
I had absolutely no idea. I had absolutely no idea. All I knew is that I felt good for the first time in a long time and that all the fears all I had and all of the things that I felt that were holding me back weren't present when I was drinking quote unquote responsibly, right? The right way.

Fair enough, okay. Okay, yep.

Chuck LaFLange (06:10.302)
Or the correct way, as it were.

Right, and so I continued to pursue that. And when you're trying to get people to like you and showing up at all these parties and stuff, it was only a matter of time before drugs were introduced. And I got addicted to cocaine very, very early. I think I was 17 when I developed a problem. Yeah, yeah, I ended up going to treatment when I was 21.

Really, eh? Yeah. That is early. That is, yeah.

Jenn Zingel (06:41.23)
I was engaged at that time and he had left me because of my addiction and my behavior. So yeah, that was 2007 when I went to treatment the first time.

Can I ask what your ish that was?

Chuck LaFLange (06:55.454)
So before I met you, but just before. OK. So that's kind of where I was at with it. So by the time I met you, it was post your first run at treatment then. OK. OK. Anyway, continue. I didn't mean to interrupt. Well, I didn't mean to interrupt. I don't know why I always say I didn't mean to interrupt because I obviously fucking meant to interrupt. But anyway, continue, please. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Jenn Zingel (07:03.31)
Yeah. Yeah, it didn't stick.

Jenn Zingel (07:11.374)
No, we're totally good. Yeah, so, yeah, so he left me because of my actions and behaviors and a result of my inability to be a solid relationship partner due to my addiction. And so at that time was the first time I opened up to my family and my parents and told them I had a problem. And so they offered to put me in a treatment program. Looking back on it,

I'm sorry.

Jenn Zingel (07:39.598)
today, I really understand that I only went to win him back. I didn't go because I wanted to learn. I didn't go because I wanted to change my behavior. I didn't go because I actually wanted to stop. I was literally selfishly trying to get something out of it just by going. And I think the other part of it that made the first time not sick is I went there for a coke problem, right? When I got there, they're like, hey, alcohol is a problem for a lot of people too. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, I'm here for a coke problem. I know how to drink, right?

Yes.

Chuck LaFLange (08:01.598)
again.

Jenn Zingel (08:09.422)
And, um, right? Yeah. And, and then the third contributing factor to why the first, the first time didn't work for me with that. I was introduced to the 12 step groups and my very first meeting. I saw the God word on the wall and I was. Completely shut my mind to such a theory. Absolutely. I knew more.

I hear that all the time.

Yes, right. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (08:21.278)
Mm -hmm.

Jenn Zingel (08:31.982)
than the millions of people that this program has worked for over almost 100 years. And I knew there was no God. And so my opinions and my beliefs stopped me from being open -minded to even hearing the information. So pair not trying with getting out and drinking right away, thinking it'll be okay. I think I only stayed off drugs for maybe a month. And then I got too drunk, needed to balance that out as I love to do. I love to mix the alcohol and the drugs.

Yeah.

Jenn Zingel (08:58.606)
I've never liked being drunk and I've never liked being high. Pair those two together and I'm off for days, for days.

Oh yeah. I hear you. I hear you. Yeah. Yeah, I was, I was, you're doing both. If you're doing one, you're doing the other, and that's absolutely right. Otherwise you're flying crooked. You're going to fly crooked, you've got to, you know, level out. So yeah, I totally understand, right? These are, and it's, it's important, Jen, to note that...

Yeah, yeah, and that sent me out on the 13 year bender.

too.

Chuck LaFLange (09:17.502)
Lisa is the Mugglest of the Muggles, as I like to call her. She has never experienced any of this stuff, so I always get a kick out of watching her reactions when we're sitting here talking about things. Her lens is a very different one.

I'm not gonna do that.

No, I was a... Yeah, this is a very, very different one. I was the kid who was terrified of being in any kind of an altered state. And so, you know, I would go to parties, I've told Chris this before, I would go to parties and either pretend to be drunk while being completely sober, or I would go and tell people that I was a... Yeah. Right? That annoying girl, right? Let's just say it. Or...

Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (09:51.262)
That girl.

Chuck LaFLange (09:57.662)
Okay, thank you. Yeah your words. Not mine. Yeah, okay. Yeah

Or I would tell people that I was allergic to alcohol. I don't even know if that's real life. I don't know if anybody can be allergic to alcohol, but yeah, so a very different lens for sure. I'm so curious and like, we're only what, 10 minutes in, but you opened up by saying you're a 12 stepper. Then you went and stated that, you know, the minute you saw God on the wall, because that is the thing that I hear the most, right? Like if I'm working with a...

Yeah.

Lisa (10:29.279)
patient and I will encourage them to go to AA and again for me it's like I don't care if you go to AA or Smart Recovery or what you go to but I'm like you need a community you need a community of people who understand what you're going through and AA is a great place to get that. The most common reaction I get from people who are going to object to it they play the god card. I'm not religious. So how did you go from

seeing the word God and going the other way to describing yourself as a 12 -stepper.

Oh man, that's a little bit of a story. Do I have the time?

Yeah, I think that's huge.

Of course, yeah, yeah, that's what we're here for. Yeah.

Jenn Zingel (11:09.998)
All right, so during that 13 years, I'm going to get emotional because it's hard to remember how bad it was.

Jenn Zingel (11:25.614)
So over that time, cope all the time.

And can you clarify when you say the 13 years, do you mean from 17 to 30 or what, what is the 13 years in your head?

So in 2007, I went to treatment and it didn't stick. And then I got sober again in 2020, 13 years later. Yeah, so I've been sober almost four and a half years. Yeah. Thanks, thanks. As cliche as it is, it's literally one day at a time. I really hated that thing when I got to the room, but it's pretty relevant.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, gotcha, okay.

Chuck LaFLange (11:44.094)
Okay. Yeah, okay.

Yeah, good for you, good for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

amazing.

Lisa (11:56.19)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (12:00.447)
Hehehehe

Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Yeah, so just the coke addiction, the alcoholic addiction, it was paramount to everything else over time. Those things ceased to be a luxury. They became a necessity and my tolerance grew quite high. My best friend at the time, well, my quote unquote best friend, right, was a drug dealer. And so she had been hiding from me because I had such opinionated stigmas against certain things that she was also selling meth.

And one day she ran out and I was on the tail end of a spree and I needed more drugs to balance me out. And so she offered me meth and so I took it. And it was in my experience exactly what I, the parts of my other drugs of choice that I was missing. It was, I loved it. I loved every second of it. And so that I was doing now coke, meth and drinking for a long time, tolerance grew and I just, I couldn't support my habit.

So I ended up putting myself in a position of selling drugs, which I found out in sobriety was actually an addiction all on its own because all of the character defects that I struggled with as a child wanting to be liked and accepted and approved of and wanting to fit in, now I had the power. And so I was very surprised to see how fast I enjoyed that. My very last drug deal was on May 24th of 2019.

Chuck LaFLange (13:23.326)
Wow.

Chuck LaFLange (13:27.518)
Ha ha ha.

We had a separate phone and someone called in with the info. So I was arrested. May 24th of 2019, I spent the night in jail. I didn't know what was happening. I found out after the fact that someone had called in to Crime Stoppers and given all the information. So I found that I had been selling to undercover officer, I think seven times over a five month period.

So I was facing 16 or 18 charges, looking at doing, you know, serious federal prison time. And that is someone who'd never really been in trouble before that absolutely broke me. And so I had to tell my parents everything. I told them the truth about everything. And I said, I would be totally honest. And I remember at that time saying, and this is such a huge monumental thing for me today when I understand the malady is that,

I remember saying I'm terrified and I don't know what's going to happen. And I'm so sad that this happened. But I realize now that I needed something of this magnitude to wake me up. I don't think I could have stopped using for anything less than this monumental thing that's happened. And I really believed it when I said it. I really believed it. But that lasted 11 days. After 11 days, my malady came back. I was assessing about drugs and alcohol and I just needed to find a solution to my problems. And I was right back out.

And then I found a lawyer who was asking me, I remember I went to the meeting and he was like, I'm busy. Can you come back in half an hour? And all I thought was great. I have time to sell formats. This is perfect. So I went down and I got high and I came back to this meeting and he was like telling me how screwed I was essentially and how there was absolutely no case for me and that I, I had to plead guilty. And then he had said, are you a user by chance?

Jenn Zingel (15:24.238)
And I was like, what do you mean? And he's like, what do you use? Do you use drugs? I was like, oh, I'm high right now. I've been high for days. That's not a question. So he told me about a really great program. It's a drug court program. And he mentioned how hard it was to get into and all these things. And at the time, there was even no room to apply.

But I ended up applying and I remember the last question they asked me on the application was why should we accept you? And I really sat down and thought about it and I just said, you can send me to jail for a day, a week, 10 years. It doesn't matter. I can't stop using and I can't do this thing by myself anymore. And so I was accepted in this program. I was excited for about two seconds before the reality hit that now I had work to do. And a lot of fear came up for me because of that, because I already tried treatment.

I already tried getting sober and I didn't do it for myself and it didn't work. So the idea of somebody else pushing me into something, I'm like, how is this ever supposed to work when this isn't what I want, this is what I have to do, I'm not ready for any of this. I remember two months before I got sober, last really hard conversation I had with my parents, I told them I thought I wanted to go to jail because I couldn't imagine a life without drugs.

That was a really hard conversation. That was a really hard conversation. And then ultimately I decided that, you know, I guess a little bit of my sanity came back long enough to realize that was a banana's idea. Um, and so this program required a year to two years plus a year of probation, um, super accountable, lots of steps, uh, on their own. I had to go and go into totally, I had to do so many things. And so ultimately I decided if I have to do this, then why wouldn't I try it?

Mm -hmm.

Jenn Zingel (17:09.806)
The other side of me said, I'll do everything I'm supposed to do and then I can go right back out when I'm done. But both sentiments allowed to put me in a position where I just thought I'm going to give this thing my all. And then I got to the God word, right? So things were going good. I was doing everything. And then I had a sponsor at that time we were on step two and she's like, do you believe? I'm like, nope. She's like, are you willing to believe? I'm like, that statement doesn't make sense to me. Cause if I don't believe it, how could I possibly be willing to believe in anything like that? And so she's brilliant. My sponsor was.

food.

Chuck LaFLange (17:14.014)
Yeah, yeah.

Jenn Zingel (17:39.086)
She said, why did you ask me to sponsor you? And I said, cause I was told to find somebody that had what I wanted. You seem happy, you don't use drugs and your actions match your words. And that's what I'm looking for. And so she said, if I looked you in the eye and told you that I know without a shadow of a doubt, 100 % to my core, there was actively a higher power working in my life every single day. Would you call me a liar? And I was like, you're making it really hard for me to say no.

I'm like, okay, okay, I believe that you believe that. And she was like, okay, that's the start. That's the start. We'll start there. And so we tried a few things and ultimately the light came on. I was in a room listening to a woman say, nobody comes to the room so their life is going well. We get here because we are hopeless, broken, suicidal. So if it's so easy to accept that drugs and alcohol have become bigger than you, then why is it so hard just to understand the simple concept that something,

could be bigger than you, that's better for you too. And that was such a simple idea that I could really wrap my brain around. That was what caused my limiting beliefs to be able to separate the religious from the spiritual and to find something that worked for me because religion was not it. But now I have a higher power today and it's single -handedly the most important thing in my life and my life has never been better.

Mm -hmm.

Wow.

Chuck LaFLange (19:02.75)
Yeah.

There's so much there. And I'm sure Lisa's got plenty. Lisa always has plenty. That's why I love her as a co -host. One of the things that I really dialed in on, and I had to stop myself from interrupting you, Jen, was this, what you said about how dealing was its own addiction, right? And of course,

Hahaha!

Lisa (19:23.935)
Mm -hmm.

For me, you really kick something there for me, right? And I guess I've known that over the years, I've often said, the hustle, the grind is what's addictive, turning a dollar into 10, and that whole thing.

But I never really thought about some of the other things that it's helping to address, right? Some of the, you know, those feelings of belonging, all of the shit that goes with being that person in power and all those things. So, you've given me something to really reflect on there, most certainly. Yeah, well, you know, I tend to happen on this show quite a bit. Lots of things thrown at me, right? So, yeah.

Oh, that's beautiful.

Lisa (20:04.831)
But I think, Jen, you're the first person we've had who's actually described that. And like, I agree, like I could listen to that and hear it from a different perspective, obviously, than what Chris is hearing it. But it makes a lot of sense to me, right? That there, I don't think I've ever met somebody who suffered an addiction who wasn't trying to compensate or fix something, right? And so for you to be able to even draw the connections between what that

without a doubt she is, yeah.

Jenn Zingel (20:27.918)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (20:34.047)
role of dealer was doing in addition to the substances as like a separate thing. Yeah, I think you're the first person that I've ever heard have that insight.

Absolutely. And that's outside of our episodes. So, you know, I do two other episodes in a week typically. And that's like, this is episode 238 and I've never heard anybody say that. So, all right. Well, geez sake. Something, Lisa, you just said that the whole suffered an addiction thing. So Jen, typically, and I know with the 12 step program, of course, addict is very much a word that we use, that is used, I should say.

Mm -hmm.

Jenn Zingel (20:54.19)
Wow, that's amazing.

Chuck LaFLange (21:14.366)
Lisa kind of she steered me away from that when we first started co -hosting together here and and you know she doesn't use the word addict because I'll let you I'm gonna put words in your mouth Lisa you can explain that but today just tonight something happened here so it's because you know it's it's 11 o 'clock at and it's almost midnight it here for me so today I was out

I had a meal with a woman that I met here. She's this crazy woman from New York. Something about New York that just produces the craziest people. We were sitting there talking and I was telling her about a story from when I was married and about, you know, well, I had to sell my race car to pay for this lawyer or I was going to have to sell my race car to pay for it. She's like, race car? But you're an addict. You don't have any money.

It was like, see, fuck that's why, right? And I didn't take offense to it, because I'm me and I understand, and you know, I use the word in conversation quite a bit too. But I took a moment and I just said to her, listen, of all the things you know about me, I told you a story about something that's happened like 10 years ago, and you instantly, the first thing I am to you is an addict, right? Like that's why we don't, that's why I don't, I don't do that, you know what I mean? Like that is, no, I'm not.

Right? Yes, I have suffered an addiction. Yes, I've been a drug addict. Am I a drug addict? That is a question that we've had many conversations about on this show. Right? How long do I identify as? Right? But, and that right there is the fucking reason. Right? I was just like, no, because now I'm, that is who I am to everybody I meet. If I identify as an addict, that's what I am first.

Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (22:55.614)
I'm not Chris the podcast or I'm not Chris the management. I'm not Chris the sales guy, Chris the entrepreneur. I am Chris the fucking drug addict. And that's where I take exception to that language, I guess. What do you say about that, Jen? Or Lisa, do you want to kind of explain where you, maybe, I'll get you to explain your kind of your side of that, not side of that, but you know what I'm saying. Go ahead.

Yeah, I mean, I think for me, yeah, and I think that it started pre -medicine, right? I think it started, you know, having a loved one who suffers with this terrible disease and just hearing, and actually the first time I think I heard those words, it was him talking about himself in this really shameful, derogatory, disgusted way, you know, junkie.

perspective.

Lisa (23:50.494)
those kinds of terms. And I caught on pretty early on the amount of stigma that is tied to those words. Then, you know, going into medicine for me, it was the fact that there's no, there aren't, you know, we don't call people who have cancer, we don't call them a cancer. They're a human suffering with cancer.

And I think that kind of combined with some of the therapy training I did through residency where we talk about teaching people to separate themselves from things like to externalize, whether it's a personality disorder or a mental illness, you are not depression. You're a human with depression. And there's a lot of power. I think people start to feel some...

again, powers the word that's coming to mind for me, but they start to feel like they can understand themselves, they can love themselves again, they can see themselves as not having just this one identity of I'm an addict or I'm, I don't, I don't use the word schizophrenic either, you know, you're a person with schizophrenia. And so I think it's about, yeah, externalizing it so that you're able to start looking at the other parts of yourself and realizing that there are parts of yourself that are not,

the addict or the disease. And I think that particularly when we talk about the muggles, I really think that there's a power in educating them and pointing out to them. If your sibling or your parent or your child had cancer, would you go around and say, yeah, so spoke to my cancer this morning.

Like you wouldn't do that. Like it's disgusting, it's derogatory, it's cruel. You wouldn't do it. So it's like, why would you do that with this disease? And I think it helps people who are the muggles or the people who don't understand this. It helps them kind of check in with themselves that, oh yeah, like there's more to them than their addiction or than their disease. And so I find it powerful from an education perspective.

Lisa (26:07.358)
And even again, like talking to other physicians, like particularly non -psychiatry physicians who, you know, don't know a lot about addiction. To be able to say to them, if they use the term, oh, you know, there's an ad, I have to go see this addict now. And to be like, no, no, no, no, you have to go see a person who has an addiction. I think just the, like the processing of that kind of like, oh yeah, you know, like they're a person. I think there's, there's a lot of.

And again, it's outside of the community of people who suffer with it. And so, you know, I would never go into an AA meeting and sit there and lecture people about, you know, don't call yourself that. But I really find value in the non, or the population of people who are not suffering with addiction. I think it can really help people to look at that person and realize they're not one thing.

Well said. Jen, what are your comments on this being a passionate 12 -stepper? And of course, you know, it's sticking with the language that way, right?

Yeah, so I really appreciate both of your thoughts and opinions on that. It's a perspective that I haven't had a chance to come into contact with. So I really do. And like, it's going to be something for me to think about. If I'm being totally honest, that hasn't been my experience at all. It hasn't been my experience. Yeah, so in my experience, as somebody who loves the room,

But and please be totally honest. Yeah, right. So.

Jenn Zingel (27:41.07)
And just in case anyone's wondering, I never say what fellowship I'm a part of. I try to abide by the traditions and I don't want to impact them as a whole. But when I really wrapped my brain around what step one was, I had to come to terms with my innermost self that I had this thing. Yes, that I suffered from the disease of alcoholism. Yes, that I suffered from the disease of addiction. But being able to finally say, yes, I am.

an alcoholic, yes, I am an addict, being able to know that all of the time and know that just because I'm not actively using or drinking, I still am these things. It's just, for me, my experience has always been, it's a good thing. It's a good thing to know what I am because I mean, and most of the time, we'll be honest in the rooms, I say, hey, I'm a grateful addict, right? Because I am still an addict. I'm just not picking up. I use a higher power in the 12 steps to live my life today.

But I also love being able to educate. And so my experience when talking to like maybe even people at work, it's fascinating. I suffered in silence for years and now I recover as loudly as possible. It's one of the reasons I wanted to do the podcast to begin with, but like all turned to someone and like they'll mention like, are you going to go out partying tonight? And I'm like, no, I'm an alcoholic. And they're like, oh, wait, you are? And I was like, yeah, but like when was the last time you drank? I'm like, I don't know, four years ago.

And they're like, oh, so you used to be an alcoholic. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Can I educate you? And I'll literally take five minutes to sit that person down and explain to them. I mean, the greatest thing, it's so funny. The first 43 pages of the big book are dedicated to get someone to accept to themselves that they might have this disease. And it really comes down to two questions, like super, super simple. When you say you're not gonna pick up, can you do that? And when you're using, can you decide when you put it down?

If you can say yes to both, you probably don't have a problem. But if you can't, you might be suffering from an illness that's beyond human aid. And that was my experience. So for me, it was the most positive thing in the world to be able to say that and to be able to, when I say it out loud to others that don't understand, be able to offer some education on, you know, like an alcoholic and an addict isn't someone that drinks or uses a lot. There's somebody that can't help but use because they can't handle their life.

Chuck LaFLange (30:05.598)
Fair enough. Yep.

And they need to figure out all the reasons why they're struggling and why they're using like, it's so funny. There's a misconceptions in the room. Some people come. I mean, I did when I got there, but people come because they think they have a problem with drugs and alcohol. Drugs and alcohol were never my problem. They were the solution to my real problem. That my brain doesn't function properly, right? My brain will never function properly because I have pieces missing due to my addiction. And for me, what I found in the 12 steps is those pieces missing were filled by 12 step people in my higher power.

Yes, of course. Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Jenn Zingel (30:34.382)
They connect everything within my brain so that I can make choices that aren't selfish, self -centered, self -seeking, and dishonest. What a better way to live.

Wow. You're very, very well spoken. You're very, very well spoken, Jen. You've articulated that in a very, you know, I don't want to say convincing way because that's not what we're trying to do here, but in a way that really makes me stop and think as well. I mean, I'm going to stick to my language, but, you know, yeah, right. For all the reasons that. And I think it's important to.

It's awesome.

I agree with you.

Jenn Zingel (31:02.958)
For sure.

Chuck LaFLange (31:10.59)
Because our show spends so much time trying to help family members understand, right? Like that's kind of what sets this podcast apart from so many. So I think in that case where...

trying to help people to separate, as Lisa often says, that is the addict talking, right? That is not your son, that is not your daughter, that's not your mother, your sister, whoever, right? That is, that's the disease talking right there. So I think in this particular platform, it makes sense for us to kind of do what we're doing, but though I'm not a 12 -stepper, I have great respect for the 12 -step program.

It's, there's a couple things that, and we talked about this when we spoke the other day, but there's a couple things that kind of, I found resentments is what it came down to, right? And so, but, and I've said this many, many times and I'll say it many, many more times, the first 30 days I ever had never happens without the rooms. There's no fucking way, right? Like that.

that fellowship, that just being around other people is so important, right? Like so unbelievably important, right? I can still remember, it was actually, it was a female speaker who had come to social detox where I was. It was maybe the 10th or 15th meeting, because we had one every day. Megan, and I've talked openly about Megan a few times on the show, and we go back and forth, but Megan said,

Yeah, it really is.

Chuck LaFLange (32:44.094)
Like her story was the one that just stuck with me. I was like, okay, okay, now I want to go check this out. Right? I can buy into this, you know, and I'm sure you had that moment. I think everybody has that moment when they hear somebody speak that they can just really relate to. And for that, I'll be forever grateful. I did relapse after that. But the things that I learned, the importance of that connection, even in just that first 30 days was monumental to me, right?

And now, I would go to a meeting right now, in a heartbeat I would. Unfortunately, it's not something that's offered here where I am. There's one AA meeting that two people go to, right? And it's a half hour drive away, so it's just not, you know, once a week, right? So it's just not really a thing for me here, but I would absolutely, just for the community.

My group is online too. You can check it out online.

You know how much conversation I have online? Can you imagine? Right? The last thing I want to do is speak to more fucking people online. Right? Because that's what I do all day.

You just have to type, you just have to type just listening. We won't even talk to you.

Lisa (33:49.918)
that.

For me, that's very much the thing. I have done the online thing before, in the past. For me personally, I spend a lot of time talking recovery online. A lot. More than the vast majority of the population.

Yeah.

Jenn Zingel (34:01.87)
Hmm, that's fair. Well, and you have to, you know...

to say.

I just wanted to say it was interesting hearing your explanation, description, your view on using that term. And again, I think it's just the different perspectives and the people that you're engaging with and talking to. And what I'm hearing is that when you say that owning that, you're sort of owning that. I'm an alcoholic, I'm an addict, because again, the disease of addiction is a disease that...

you know, tricks you, it tricks people, right? We lie to, I say we, but people lie to themselves. They minimize the challenge that they're up against. And so I can see how for somebody who is in early recovery, you know, any door you grant that allows them to kind of minimize the severity of it can be dangerous. But I think it's, right?

life and death.

Lisa (35:00.19)
And I think for me, it's just that the people that I talk to, when they're using the term addict, it usually is filled with stigma and judgment and ignorance. And that's where I'm like, no, they're.

It's often shame when it's the person themselves, it's often shame that that's attached to it as well, right? So, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, and you know, that's one of the reasons why I love the 12 step groups and whatnot, because like, I really learned that the greatest thing that ever happened to me in my life was becoming an addict, right? For a lot of reasons, not only did it mold me into the person that I am today, and I had to go through those experiences, it's unfortunate, I had to harm so many people on the way, but I've since then been put in a position to be able to rectify most of that. But...

I love the fact that I call myself an addict today and like most of us were really proud of it because when you know what you are, then you have acceptance and then you could do something about it. But more importantly, if I never discovered drugs and alcohol, that means that I would have suffered from this disease in my brain that doesn't allow me to function and think properly. And if I had no solution, I might not be here today. I might've called it quits a long time ago. I might've struggled my entire life. I might've...

Jenn Zingel (36:14.702)
settled and married the wrong person and had kids with the wrong person and then got, you know, like I just, my life could have been this mediocre, depressional mess because whether I pick up the drug or the drink, like I believe I am an addict. I am an alcoholic. I was born this way. I was born with this inability to think at a whole capacity. I'm never going to think well without the aid of something. And for me, it's a higher power. So having this thing, if I never discovered drugs with alcohol, I might be miserable if I was still here at all.

Being an addict is the best thing that ever happened to me because now I've been propelled into this life where I don't have guilt, shame, remorse. I am of service to others. I contribute to life. I don't take from it. Right? When I say I'm going to show up, I show up, right? I build relationships. Like life is beautiful today. And I would never have that if I didn't discover drugs and alcohol. So yeah, I'm an addict. Proud of it. Yeehaw.

You just made the first reel of this episode, most certainly, right there. Yeah, right. I just had to make a note. I'm like, yep.

Yeah.

Oh, perfect.

Lisa (37:12.892)
Right? I felt like that was like a, I'm gonna start hooting and hollering in here. Right? Dropping amen. Love it.

Absolutely.

You know what, it gets me so fired up. It gets me so fired up because of the stigma, right? I agree with you guys. I agree with you guys that I love to be able to scream from the rooftops the fact that these things are not what they appear to be. It's kind of, you know, like there's been so many different words in our history that we're something, we're changing to something else, and then those people took them back, right? Those terms are unimportant here. But like, I feel like in the rooms, we take it back and we're like, I'm super proud of it.

Good! Awesome!

Yep.

Lisa (37:45.852)
Mm -hmm.

Yep.

Jenn Zingel (37:50.766)
The best thing ever happened to me, because that's why I'm here now. Yeah.

Wow. Wow. Wow.

I know. Can I, so is there a family history for you? Cause like you say, you believe you were born this way. Is there a family history that you know, you think played a role in it?

Jenn Zingel (38:10.542)
Um, neither of my parents, um, nor my brother have, um, have struggled with anything like this. Um, I believe both my grandparents were drinkers, but to be honest, um, in rebuilding my life and trying to build a foundation to make sure I had something to give super deep conversations about family history haven't really happened yet. Um, so like, I know that they drank, do, do I know if they were alcoholics?

Yeah.

Jenn Zingel (38:40.078)
I don't know that, but.

I think when you go back that far, even people just admitting that to themselves back then, let alone other people, would have been a very different thing. So we've come a long way. You might never have those answers if you even go start seeking for them. Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Lisa (38:51.164)
Mm.

Right.

Jenn Zingel (38:55.406)
And for sure, I know that through DNA, it's super common, but it's not the only way. When I look at my behavior from the age of, as far back as I can remember, from the age of four to eight, when I look at my behavior and how I reacted to things and how my brain, like how my heart felt, when I think about being a kid, I had all the defects that I still have today, right?

Yeah.

Lisa (39:20.636)
Mm -hmm.

I've always thought, believed and lived and felt this way. There's always been something missing that made me want to make it about me, made me want to be the victim, made me want to blame everyone else. Oh, poor me. Pay attention to me. Look at me. Love me. Right. And it's always been that way. And I don't, I mean, sometimes those things crop up, but I've done a lot of work and I continue to work on it daily. And those things aren't really an issue when I'm actively working on them. Cause I, I,

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Jenn Zingel (39:47.118)
I now do as I feel my higher power would have me. I act in faith over fear. I choose to be selfless, not selfish. I still set boundaries. It's just, I could just talk about the 12 steps per day. It's like I just said, I just, I love them.

I love the passion there. I do, I do. Yeah, most certainly. So.

I feel though, like when I listen to someone like you Jen talk though, like it always, and I've thought this about therapy, treatment, you name it. I'm just like, we all need this. Like we all need it. Addicted to substances or not. It's just like to go somewhere where, just as you're describing all of this, it's like, yeah, you can really realize that everybody needs this.

What?

Well, and that's just it, right? In the book, it does say we do believe that this has its benefits for all, right? But it's more needed for the alcoholic or the addict. But I mean, I actually have, I do have a set of listeners that are friends of mine, coworkers of mine. They love the show, they listen to it all the time. They don't have those struggles because a lot of people don't really understand that the 12 steps aren't about helping you to stop using and stop drinking. The 12 steps are supposed to help you learn.

Lisa (40:36.157)
Mm -hmm.

Jenn Zingel (40:57.902)
about where you need to improve to grow to have a great life. Like the fundamental principles are how to become a better human being. Who doesn't need that? Right? Yeah.

Yeah, right. Well, I'm pretty much perfect. I mean, come on, right? Yeah, you know, so. No, I'm perfect. Yeah.

Absolutely. All of us except Chris.

HAHAHA

Chuck LaFLange (41:16.094)
Something that you said there, Jen, kind of sparked something. Actually, no, before I do that, Lisa, I want you to make your point again, the story about your brother and your boyfriend from back in the day, where you've kind of explained to him your thoughts on how people, the difference between your brother and other people. You know what I'm talking about? Yes, yeah.

Mmm. Yeah, the choice thing. The choice thing.

The choice thing. I want you to make that point with Jen here. Just because it's, to me, it just, when she first said it, Jen, it articulated it in just the most beautiful way. And it gave me a way to explain to people in many, many conversations, in real life, online, in the comments section of so many Facebook posts, about addiction is a choice. So I want you to kind of tell that story if you could, you know.

Heheheheh

HMMMM

Jenn Zingel (42:04.366)
Ooh, this is gonna be good. Hit me up Lisa.

Yeah, that's a lot of buildup. Sorry. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah She used to mean to do that. Yeah, right. Yeah

I feel so much pressure now. So yeah, so basically there was a conversation that I had with an ex of mine and it came from a good place. Like he was legitimately just trying to understand, you know, this was when my brother was early in his days suffering with severe addiction, you know, and.

again, like many people, it was just kind of like, you know, but he chooses to like, to do the things that he's doing. And so, and you know, this was a particular guy that I dated who in his, you know, teenage years, he had experimented with drugs, you know, he had done cocaine, he'd done ecstasy, you know, he'd, he'd partied, you know, and so I just looked at him one day and I said, you know, you do realize though that my brother didn't make any choice.

different than the choices you made. You know, like my brother was a really good hockey player when he first started using drugs. He was with his hockey team. You know, he was out with a bunch of athletic, you know, good kids at a party doing drugs. And so I said he didn't actually make a choice any different than the choices you made. And I said the only difference is that my brother, I believe similar to you, I think is that my brother was wired to suffer with addiction.

Chuck LaFLange (43:03.038)
you

Lisa (43:28.253)
you know, genetically past experiences, his brain was wired for this. And so to me, it's kind of like teenagers are sort of playing Russian roulette because you don't know which one you are. And so I said, you know, he didn't make any decisions any differently than you. It's just for him, those decisions resulted in this really catastrophic outcome that for the majority of people, it doesn't, you know, majority of people experiment and they'll walk away. And, you know, unfortunately my brother was not one of those people.

But again, when you talk about choices, it's like he didn't choose anything any different. The problem is by the time that part of his brain was activated, it was too late. And then he was literally fighting a monster, but he didn't choose any different.

Right, right, yeah.

Jenn Zingel (44:09.038)
It was too late.

Yep. Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (44:17.566)
Yeah, right.

I love that example. I love that language. One of the greatest things that one of my sponsors has ever said to me is he's talking about the terminology and we're talking about how people react to our verbiage, right? He hates the term drug of choice. He hates it. He hates it. He said,

Mm -hmm.

Lisa (44:37.053)
E. Oh, it's there.

If we want to talk, if you suffer from the disease of alcoholism or addiction, if you are like, so what we refer to as a big book addict, big book alcoholic, if you suffer from this disease bad enough that you're beyond human aid and a spiritual solution will be your solution. He says a drug of no choice is Tylenol. Because I choose when I take it and I can easily turn it down if I don't need it. When I suffer from alcoholism or addiction,

Right. That's interesting.

I don't choose picking up what I'm picking up. I can't help myself. And I just, yeah, I just love the difference between drug of choice and drug of no choice. Are you guys, yeah, yeah. Are you guys familiar with the five stages of alcoholism as written in the doctor's opinion in the book? So it's.

That's a big one. Yeah, I've never heard that one before. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lisa (45:20.636)
I like that. I like that.

Chuck LaFLange (45:29.918)
No, do tell.

know if you start I'll tell you this yeah.

Yeah.

So it's when I when I read it and I understood it, that's when I was able to go back in my life and be like, oh my God, I've had this thing forever. Like this makes sense. And this is how my addiction works. So stage one is the spiritual malady, right? Or Dr. Lisa, as you refer to having your brain being wired differently, right? We are restless, irritable, discontented. We have an inability to think at a full capacity and we make poor choices because of it. So there's these really great takes.

Mm -hmm.

Jenn Zingel (46:01.998)
they're called Joe and Charlie and they talk about they talk about your brain as being like a pie cut into 10 pieces take two pieces away you still have most of a pie but there's pieces missing right so when we talk about the insanity and you see that written on the wall it's not

Woohoo.

Jenn Zingel (46:20.782)
the Edison quote, doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. What it is, is the actual medical definition of insanity is a mental illness of such a severe nature that the person cannot distinguish between fantasy and reality. And so with a spiritual malady, you think just fine, but there's pieces missing. So most of the time it's wrong and it causes us to make decisions that end up being selfish, self -centered, self -seeking, dishonest, manipulative, right? So what happens from that? We roll into stage two. Because we can't think properly, our life sucks.

our reactions to life suck and our problems build up on us and become astonishingly difficult to solve is what the book says. So what happens from that point if the spiritual malady is not dealt with is you roll into stage two, the obsession. Your brain will convince you that picking up is the solution. You could have just came off of a bender. You could have woken up and been like, I can't believe I just did that. I spent all my rent. I have no place. Like, I can't believe I just lost my kids. Whatever your situation is. I can't believe I just did that. I'm never doing that again.

And within hours, without the spirituality being dealt with, you roll into the obsession, your brain will lie to you and convince you that picking up will solve the problem. If you are an addict or an alcoholic of the big book description, once you pick up, you set off what's called the phenomenon of craving. So the more you take, the more you need, right? We have what's called an allergic reaction and our body absorbs alcohol or drugs in a different way. And immediately it sets off this desire to have more.

straight at will.

Jenn Zingel (47:45.07)
That's why they say one is too many and a thousand is never enough. So when you set off the phenomenon of craving in stage three, what happens? You roll into stage four a spree. The addict or alcoholic will use and use and use and use and use and use and use until they are stopped. What does getting stopped look like? Well, maybe they run out of money. Maybe they pass out. Maybe they end up in the hospital. Maybe something I'd rather not talk about, even worse, their kids get taken away, a loved one comes to get them. They'll go until they can't go anymore and then they end up in stage five.

emerging remorseful if they're lucky enough to wake up at all, swearing that they're never going to do this again. Now, because of that cycle, you've done a lot more shit. So now you have even more stuff that you can't deal with and that your inability to think at a whole capacity to rectify all the stuff you've done. And that's why when we see this ski jump of people that can start and be okay. And then after years, they just like, they turn into, I mean, essentially the stigma word, like a huge junkie.

Mm -hmm. Yep.

Jenn Zingel (48:38.446)
It's because every time they loop this cycle, it starts going around slowly and then it speeds up and goes faster and faster and faster and faster and faster. And then when you end up, you know, somebody like me, I would wake up in stage five being like, I'm never doing this again. And within an hour of waking up, I'm like, I can't do this. I can't do this. Right. Immediately turns into obsession, immediately turns into using sex me off on another four days till I passed out. My body shuts down, waking up feeling worse. And it just continues.

Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (48:43.646)
Yep.

Absolutely, right.

Thank you.

Chuck LaFLange (49:04.286)
Yeah, yeah, right.

And I just love the definition of the cycle and how the brain functions differently when we are wired that way, because I use the 12 steps to cure the spiritual malady every day so that I never roll into that cycle again.

Wow. Wow.

That was incredible and I've never ever heard of that. So I've now Googled. Is this Joe and Charlie? Is this who talks about this?

Oh, yeah. So Joe and Charlie talks about it. I would have to get back to you and tell you. Yeah, Joe and Charlie, the AA tape. They do a big book study. It's broken into many things. I have to actually figure out which one it is. And I can give you. So they talk about the the pie example. But the actual cycle that I'm talking about is the doctor's opinion.

Chuck LaFLange (49:22.91)
Oh.

Lisa (49:29.595)
and Charlie.

Lisa (49:33.819)
Yeah.

Lisa (49:49.243)
Okay. Okay.

And you'll find that in the Joe and Charlie shapes or in the big book.

There you go.

Lisa (49:53.723)
Okay. Okay. Amazing.

That's amazing. Yeah, it really is, right? It really is. I mean, the pie example, and Lisa's talked about this many times, right? We now have brain imaging that shows your frontal lobe is not working, right? Like, so, yeah, 100%. That's just a great metaphor, long before brain imaging, I might add, that wraps that up, right?

It proves it! We're not the same. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (50:18.974)
They say I know you've got things so go ahead.

I know, I feel like my brain, I'm just like... One thing that you talked about earlier was about the whole getting arrested thing and you said that something monumental needed to happen. You also talked about not feeling ready at the time, but then obviously in time that came. Do you think in that with hindsight, do you think that you...

I'm good for hours. Let's keep going.

Lisa (50:53.275)
weren't ready, you didn't want it, or do you think you didn't believe you could do it?

That's a great question that I cannot answer. I have no idea. One of the most interesting, I'm sure you guys have heard, the program is not for people who need it, it's for people that want it. Have you ever heard that? Super comment. Okay. I'm not a big fan of it either. What I am a big fan of is adding, this program is not for people who want it. This program is not for people who need it. It's simply for those that are willing to do it.

Okay, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (51:14.302)
Yeah, I have. And I'm not, yeah, I'm not a big fan of that language myself, but yeah. Yeah.

I haven't.

Chuck LaFLange (51:28.606)
Yeah, yeah, right. When I hear somebody say, you have to just want it bad enough, it's like, no, I don't believe that. I don't at all. That would indicate that my fucking brain works right, and it's not.

Mmm.

Like that's it, that is 100 % it. I was not ready, but I was desperate. So I, oh, go ahead.

Lisa (51:44.187)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (51:49.339)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Right? Like it's on, it's, it was just, oh, oh, I needed to want to quit. I never thought of that tactic before. Right? Like, no. So I don't like that language. Right? Like at all, actually. It's one of those things that, you know, yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah, well, and yeah. And that's one of the harder pieces of the component of understanding the importance of hitting a bottom. In my experience and in the literature in the book, it talks about we had to be beaten to a point of reasonableness and we had all of the desperation of a drowning man. When you get low enough, your limiting beliefs,

and your opinion thinking that you know better, like when you get humbled enough because of the consequences of what's going on, you then become willing. So for me, I knew there was no God, I knew there was no this, and then I ended up being into a point of where if I don't try this thing and try to open my mind, I had to force myself to say, I need to try, otherwise I'm going to jail three years and that's not where I want my life to end up. Right? So I was beaten to a point of reasonableness being like, hey,

Lisa (52:36.443)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (52:50.139)
cool.

Maybe you don't know everything. Listen to the information, try to hear the information, then try to apply it before you pass judgment that it doesn't work for you. But if you would ask me to do that in 2007, there's no way, because I wasn't low enough yet. I had to hit my low.

Yeah.

Lisa (53:00.763)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. And...

Lisa (53:08.923)
And I think hearing that, you know, I'm always thinking about how I can take things back to patients. And I actually think that that whole, you know, you don't need to say you need it. You don't need to say you want it. Just are you willing? Like that is something that's actually quite powerful. Like I think that could, I can imagine many patients who would say to me, I don't need this or I don't want this. But if I flipped it and said, but are you willing? Are you just willing to try this? I think a lot of people who would say no, no, would suddenly say, yeah.

and you know so... Gooseys!

I got total goosebumps right now. Yeah, 100%. Honestly, that's it. Are you willing to try this and tell me if it works or not? That's it.

Thank you.

Chuck LaFLange (53:44.542)
That's amazing.

Right?

Chuck LaFLange (53:51.806)
Yeah, yeah, right. Well.

Yeah. And the reason I asked that question of you is because I do feel like I, I don't know what the right word is. Like, cause I mean, I don't know, but I sense that from patients a lot. I sense, you know, I'll have patients who their language will be, I don't need your help. I don't want your help. Um, I'm fine. And a lot of the times my gut is that it's

underlying all of that is that they've kind of given up on themselves like they don't believe they're capable they don't believe like you said they don't believe that they can live a life without substances so they're like why fake it like why pretend you know like I can't do this so just get out of my way and let me get on with it

I think that's the case for a lot of us, myself included. I also think just fear of the unknown is huge for us, right? There's comfort in the panic. There is comfort in knowing what's gonna happen, whether it's bad or not. We convince ourselves, you know, it's better to know what's gonna happen and know that it's gonna be bad over and over again than to jump into the darkness and be like, oh my God, what's gonna, like, a lot of us stick around and do the same thing, but I do really like what you said there. And I think that's really applicable too. My experience has been both.

Yeah.

Lisa (55:09.531)
And then can we ask, can I like put you totally on the spot and ask you a question? You don't have to answer it obviously. Well, I'm just curious, because again, you're saying, just because, you know, for you, it was a potential, you know, number of years in a federal prison. What is your take on?

Oh god.

Yes you do. You have to answer it. Yes you do. Yes. Or it gets really fucking weird if you don't. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So yeah. Yeah.

Yeah!

Lisa (55:37.083)
And I'm gonna, let me, don't answer this just yet. What is your take on mandated treatment? And I will say that as a physician, I don't mean, you know, that we drive around the city with vans and like scoop everybody up and, you know, throw them in a room and lock them up somewhere. But if you see somebody, for example, in the emerge, there are people who I see in the emerge every other week I'm seeing them in there. They're coming in, they're psychotic, they're suicidal.

high, they're homeless, they're prostituting, like their life is chaos. We know, right, we know they're unwell. I know if I stuck them in an fMRI machine, their brain is not working. What is your thought around?

involuntary, mandated, whatever word makes you comfortable with the fact that we're not talking about just sticking them somewhere to contain them. We're talking about somewhere where they're going to get therapy, they're going to get assessments, they're going to, you know, we're going to explore what all those underlying drivers are, what is it they're trying to escape from. And now I'll stop talking.

you

Chuck LaFLange (56:49.214)
albeit against their will at the time. Where do you land on that one?

Mm -hmm.

That's a loaded question.

Oh, it's the way she asked it, it's totally loaded, but if you could take the loaded out of it, I mean, answer it the way you will, right? So, yeah.

So here, so what I'll say is mandated with acceptance, not involuntary. Mandated saying you can choose a worse consequence or you can choose this. Which one are you, so essentially the mandated that I was. You can do this, we'll accept you, but you have to do this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this

Lisa (57:04.506)
Ah!

Chuck LaFLange (57:11.454)
Yep.

Okay.

Lisa (57:16.058)
All right. Yeah. Yeah.

Jenn Zingel (57:29.774)
I think that mandated with an option of you get to choose whether you're ready or not, right? And you're willing to do the work, I think 100%. I think that it's because of court mandation, which is the only reason why the big book and all the fellowships became a thing, right? I don't know if you guys know a lot about the history, but like, so one of the co -founders of AA that wrote the book had a friend come to his house and explain,

Mm -hmm.

Jenn Zingel (57:58.798)
because back in the 30s, right, there was no treatment centers, there was no resources. You were either committed by a court system to be put into this in a same asylum, right? Like there wasn't a lot of options. You just got sent away. And so there was this religious group that came and they used to try to help saving people. And so they went to this guy's court mandated conviction to this asylum and they said, please give them to us. We think we can help them. And then they helped him with the same principles the big book uses. And then he brought back to his friends.

at the kitchen table, one of the founders, and then boom, all of a sudden he got 100 people sober, they wrote the book and it's exploded and now millions of people have found their way to recovery. And it all started in a courtroom, ultimately.

I did not know that. I'll put my two cents in on that one. When I first started this podcast, I was very much, I was against the idea. Lease opened up my eyes to some different perspective on it. Since then, of course, we've had.

I don't know.

Chuck LaFLange (58:59.166)
pretty, pretty militant, passionate harm reductionists who will speak against mandated treatment in any way, shape or form. We've had people that have come on and spoken the opposite to that. Personally, I feel like...

If you have somebody who's in a severe fentanyl addiction, and again, this is a cumulation of many different opinions that got me to this point, but they're, as Lisa will tell you, as any doctor will tell you, their brain's not fucking working. It's not, right? They are a minute away from dying, always, right? And you can't tell me that that person has capacity to say, yes, I'm willing to do the work.

If we get that person sober for long enough, you know, and whether that means locking them up and saying, here's what we're gonna do today, right? This is, you're gonna do this treatment, you're gonna do this, you're gonna come to therapy, because this is the way it is. If we can get that person sober long enough to then make a decision, I think that there's a lot of potential in there to help a lot of people. Because somebody, like you can't ask an insane person to make the same choice.

Right, and that is the problem, right? And so waiting around for them to come to it on their own, I often say, waiting for rock bottom now, times have changed. Waiting for rock bottom is waiting for death. Right, it's not like it was even 10 years ago, even five years ago. These people die while we're waiting around for their rock bottom to happen. And it happens, the shit is killing people.

at a faster rate than anything in human history outside of war and plague. We've never experienced this before. So again, waiting for them to make that choice to be willing, they die.

Jenn Zingel (01:00:42.126)
It's bad right now. It's awful out there.

Lisa (01:00:46.97)
Okay.

Jenn Zingel (01:00:54.35)
As much as I hate, I really understand what you're saying. And I, and I really think that it's, it's beautiful that you're so passionate about wanting to help people from my own experience. And I don't know a lot. I have to disagree, but I'm not saying it couldn't work for a lot of people, but from my experience of being of the big book variety, like it's the same thing as sponsorship, right? You can put so much time and resources and effort and all this stuff into somebody who doesn't want it.

Right.

Jenn Zingel (01:01:22.542)
You're just going to run yourself dry, right? Why hold on to somebody who doesn't want it when there's 10 people waiting that do? And I, and I, right.

And that's a point that covers the whole spectrum of all of it, right? Without a shadow of a doubt.

Mm -hmm.

Jenn Zingel (01:01:35.63)
Right. Well, and that's why I think mandation with an option to choose would be so beneficial because why, I mean, and again, I understand the idea of maybe holding somebody till the booze or the drugs is out of their system, but if you have this thing, you're still not thinking well, even when you're six months sober. Like it doesn't matter. Like you just need to come off the substance not to be high, right? But you're not going to be able to think well, no matter what you do. So the question is, are you willing to do something about that or not?

Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (01:01:59.198)
Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Jenn Zingel (01:02:04.75)
So why put all this time and resource into somebody who's not ready, who's not willing? And it sucks. And I wish we could help everyone. And it's like, people are dropping like buys and it sucks. But I can't live my life without acceptance of knowing that some people will never be ready. It's the only way I can get through my day and let go of the ones I'm trying to sponsor that just really don't want this thing. Cause the longer I try to get someone sober who doesn't want it, I'm missing out on three people that might be totally ready.

Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (01:02:25.182)
Yeah.

Jenn Zingel (01:02:32.334)
And it's my job to put my focus on the people that are and hope and pray that the people that aren't become ready.

Very true. Very true. Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Lisa (01:02:40.026)
And I think my perspective is different as someone who's, you know, cause obviously if you're in the rooms, the people who are coming there, are coming there voluntarily. You know, for me, fair enough. They're being dragged, gun to the head.

Not always.

Yeah. But even with the choice, even with you can go to jail or you can go to the room, right? Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Some level of choice is involved in getting there. To avoid consequences, they're still making a choice to be there. Right? You know? Right? So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. But most of them do. They do come there. Yeah.

Most of them do. And the other thing is that, you know,

Lisa (01:03:05.466)
Yeah. Whereas, I mean, I work with people who are in circumstances where they do not have a choice. Like they are under mental health certificates, they're certified in hospital, and they cannot leave. And so I feel like, you know, having somebody there who we can use the terminology like isn't ready, isn't willing, doesn't want it.

I guess I just challenge whether that's real, whether that's true, whether that's an accurate representation of where they're at, or is it just that they're so unwell that going to the rooms is not enough? Because for me, that is my, this is what gets me hot and bothered and excited, is give me that patient. I love it. I mean, on the unit I work on, when we get those patients, my colleagues are like, do you want them? And I'm like, yes, I do.

I don't know that I've ever had a patient come in, ever. And I've had many who when they are there and I first meet them, they won't speak to me. They tell me to fuck off. They get up and they storm out. They're like, I don't fucking need this. They're angry, angry, angry. I've never not had a patient turn around ever. That's not to say I've not had patients who leave hospital and end up relapsing because they don't have the right community stuff going on, but.

the patients that come in who would be seen in an AA meeting in those moments, and people would look at them and go, oh, they're not ready, they're not willing, they don't want it. Two weeks in hospital where they cannot get their hands on substances and they get a few weeks of sobriety, I've never had one of them a few weeks in still be telling me they didn't want it. And that is what, yeah.

Yeah.

Jenn Zingel (01:04:49.774)
So I love that you, yeah. I love that you put it like that because where my brain is like, where I'm going with my experience with my court mandation, which meant I was a free person that could drive around and do things. I had perfume, I had stuff, but I had lots of choices, right? What you're describing is an actual inpatient thing, which is what I experienced in treatment. I have no choice. Yeah, you're going to this meeting. Yeah, you're going to this group. You're going to get exposed to this information. So maybe if you hear it enough, you might want it.

Right? So if we're talking about an inpatient mandation, then yeah, a hundred percent. I did that. That's literally what treatment is. We tell you what to do 24 hours a day for three months.

Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:05:23.582)
See, so, and then.

So, and here's the extension to that though, is what gets somebody to mandation, right? And we've talked, Lisa's talked about this many times, right? The box is check off under the Mental Health Act for somebody in a severe, with severe SUD, right? 100%. And Lisa, you could list some authors, harm to themselves and others, can, you know, is it progressive? Is it, I don't remember what all the boxes are, Lisa, of course, right? But that person should be committed.

We don't because it's addiction. We don't because of the stigma. And Lisa can tell you many stories of her colleagues saying, no, well, that's not what we do. We don't do that with addiction. But yet, if it was any other mental illness, we would. So it's sad. Yeah. Yeah.

fortunate.

That's really unfortunate.

Lisa (01:06:14.778)
And that's the reality, you know, like, um, because I, you know, I think for people who don't do the kind of work I do, the idea of forcing somebody into treatment of any kind, it's just like, you know, it's like the free Britney movement, right? Like everybody was free, Britney, rah rah rah. And I'm just kind of looking around going like, I'm one of those people. Like I, I make Britney not free on a regular basis. Like that is part of my job. And I totally.

Totally see the privilege that I have to be in that position I have said it many times that I would say I've never met a physician who abuses that power if Anything, I feel that the majority of physicians I know probably err bordering too heavily on patient autonomy at times and it's like

Again, when it comes to schizophrenia, depression, suicidality, mania, we do this all the time. Like when I'm in the emergency department every two weeks, there are days when I might do that to 10 people in a morning. Like we do this all the time. And there's a process, you know, you need two physicians, patients always have the right to challenge their certificates. And there's a review panel with a lawyer and they don't have to pay for any of it, it's provided.

So there's a process by which we do this, but the reality is that in psychiatry, and probably also for emergency doctors, we certify people a lot. And our goal is to get them well and make their stay in hospital as short as possible. We don't wanna keep them in hospital. We are like, let's get you better and get you out of here. But we do this all the time. And so it's interesting, because when it gets brought up in addiction forums or whatever,

people really kind of like get nervous, you know? You know, like we're gonna be going around, like I said, with the van and picking them all up and locking them away. And it's like, I mean, we don't do that with any other mental illness. We don't take everybody with schizophrenia and like lock them up and throw the key away. Why is it that even within the medical community, why is it that we question our ability to decide?

Lisa (01:08:33.849)
which patients do we do this for and which do we not? Because I don't think everybody with addiction needs to be locked away. But I just think it reeks of stigma, you know, that somehow, I mean, it is a mental illness. It's in the diagnostic manual for psychiatry, substance use disorders, gambling use disorders, they're all part of psychiatry. And so why is it that we treat it so uniquely, you know?

do this for you.

Lisa (01:09:01.657)
I can't really come up with a better explanation other than stigma.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know a lot about the medical or the scientific side of any of this stuff. I just only know what I've found that works for me, but that sounds like super frustrating and kind of depressing, I'll be honest. Like that's just what a hard thing to have to face every single day when you know that if things were different, there's so many additional people you could have. Like that's just hard.

It is kind of.

It is. Right.

Chuck LaFLange (01:09:30.75)
Right? Well, I'll tell you, when I was still in Calgary, there was a friend of mine who was in it really bad. We took her to the emergency room and she blatantly, like, it was, she, she minimized her circumstances, she minimized her problem, she, and we didn't force her to stay, but.

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:09:57.054)
Forced her to stay is what it came down to right and you know it did it was like no like you don't have anywhere to go when we leave here You don't have a home you need to stay here quit saying the things that are gonna Let you not stay here you are here to get psychiatric care because you are in fucking trouble Her back was covered in bruises that she couldn't explain covered It was the most hor I just I wanted to go kick somebody's door in and I'm not a violent man anymore I was so pissed off right but

Hahaha!

Chuck LaFLange (01:10:26.686)
there were so many things and she just kept saying all the things that were gonna get her out of there and had her estranged husband not been there with her, had I not been there with her, she would have left, right? So it was one step short of forcing her to stay and then a week later, and I'm sorry, I haven't checked up on her in some time, I need to do that, I think about it often.

The next day, so her husband, her separated husband anyway, had to every day get back on the phone with her. Nope, this is what's going on. Get back on the phone with the nurse. Get back on the, you know, like she's constantly, or he was constantly advocating for her when she was in, she was still trying to get out of it, right? She's still talking to the guy who left the bruises. She was still doing all these things. And I've talked to her sporadically throughout this, Jen. And then, I think it was five days in.

She called me and it was a who the fuck are you? This was a totally different person I was speaking to. Like a totally, like I cried. I was just, oh my God, who are you? Where were you five days ago? Because you were a fucking hot mess. You were not making any sense and all the things, right? And then, but after five days of essentially being forced to stay there, totally different human being.

And so for me, that was kind of the nail in the coffin as far as mandated treatment goes. She was...

And different how Chris? I mean, I know the answer to this already, but how was she different?

Chuck LaFLange (01:11:56.67)
She was lucid, she was passionate about her own care. She's like, okay, so right now these nurses are about to go on shift change and they're leaving for the weekend. I'm not even gonna try and talk to them today because like it's not gonna work out for me. They've checked out of this, but they did this, this and this for me. So that was great. When the new shift comes on, I'm gonna talk to them and get them to get me to stay and this and this and this. It was just like, now you're advocating for yourself? Where the fuck did that come from? Because you weren't, right? You were doing the opposite of that five days.

ago and it was just it was a it was a miraculous change of mindset from this person who was very very sick five days before so for me it was like that's it is anecdotal because that's my one -off experience but fuck right it was just like

So we're talking about like the short term when things like psychosis happen and things like that. Okay, well, when you say court mandated or mandated, right, my brain can only jump to my experience, which was a two and a half year process, which, right? So like if somebody is currently in the midst of something that they can't make a sane choice on 100%, they should be held until they can.

Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (01:12:46.654)
Yeah, or whatever it takes to get somebody to a clear state of mind, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:12:58.11)
Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:13:05.47)
Yeah, if they don't have capacity, right? Yeah, right? Right? And now think about the last time you jumped on a C -train, last time you went through a C -train platform, so transit to anybody in Calgary, that's what we call transit, right? Or think about when you, the last time you drove through downtown, or just about any neighbourhood now, when you see people doing whatever you want to call it, bent over in half, when you see those things happening, how many of those people have capacity? Right? To make their own choices for themselves.

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I agree with that for sure. I didn't know we were talking short kids.

Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (01:13:35.262)
Right? How many people couldn't use a break forced or not to get their head out of their ass for a minute and get sober? I shouldn't say it like that because it sounds, you know, you know.

Well, and how many of those same people end up getting arrested for their actions during this time phase and all they do is spend the night in jail. They don't get any help at all.

Yeah. Yeah, right? Which is, don't even get me fucking started. That's a whole nother episode. Right? You know? So, and I think, and Lisa, you've said it many times, and you said it again in this episode, we're not talking about running around scooping people up and locking them away. We're talking about giving people a chance to make a choice. An actual choice. Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

Lisa (01:14:13.785)
Letting their head clear, you know, like letting their thinking clear, giving them hope, making them aware that there's support, that there's an alternative way to live their life. Because I mean, I agree, I actually was, you know, down across from the Chinook station two weeks before I left, you know, and I saw this young guy, like, I mean, he looked like he was about 20 years old.

Right.

Lisa (01:14:39.417)
you know, and he was sitting on a bench by the sea train. And I mean, I don't think he knew what planet he was on, you know, and it takes like, I just literally, I want to go scoop him up. Scoop you up and we're going to go get you better. Like I literally, literally, you know, it just is so heartbreaking.

Right? Right?

I know. Yeah, yeah, right. So yeah, and Devin McGuire, he's the first one that I heard say it, but I'm sure it's been said many times over the years, but you're asking insane people to make a sane decision, right? So, you know, if we could just not do that, if we could give people a chance to get it together, but.

There's a whole other episode we could do on this and we'll continue to do them, Lisa. We just will. That's the reality of it, right? We've surpassed the hour mark by a bit here and something you might not be aware of, Jen, but it's 12 .45 in the morning here now.

Yep. Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (01:15:36.894)
I am up until this is, until it's done, right? So I release this episode, I do everything right now. So it's a long night for me. It's a really long night for me, right? I also have two other recordings this morning as well. So it's just gonna be, it's gonna be a marathon run for me, but I love what I do, right? So, yeah.

I know.

Jenn Zingel (01:15:58.894)
Well, I really appreciate you giving me the opportunity to come and chat with you guys. This has been a really nice experience.

Yeah, it has been. And Jen, I think it's safe to say that I'll be inviting you back on. Yeah, well, most definitely. Most definitely. Yep.

Aw, thanks.

I have to say, yeah, like we do this every weekend and you have said a lot of things in the span of just over an hour that are so unique to other perspectives or just explained in a way that's just so eloquent. So it's been awesome. I've loved meeting you and I definitely hope you come back on.

Absolutely. Yes, yes. Well, yeah, I think we can make that happen. That does bring us to my favorite part of the show. That is the daily gratitudes. So Jen, what you got for some gratitudes today?

Jenn Zingel (01:16:35.214)
I would honestly be honored too. You guys are great.

Jenn Zingel (01:16:46.318)
Oh gosh, I am grateful that I have an opportunity to know my authentic self, live my truth, and be of service to others.

Those are great gratitudes. They are. Lisa, what you got?

Yeah.

Lisa (01:17:03.672)
You know, I went on a safari the last few days and

Tell me there's a giraffe named Chris out there somewhere.

There now is. I'm gonna send you a photo of your giraffe. And like we went on that safari, we were like, we need to find a giraffe and name him Chris. So we found a boy, his name is now Chris. The game reserve said they don't name any of their animals. And so he did not have a name before we named him. So there you go.

Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:17:23.358)
Yes.

Chuck LaFLange (01:17:28.926)
Wow, there you go, right? Absolutely. That is so awesome. That makes my heart so happy.

But like, I'll be honest, like being, but it's like being out on a safari in South Africa is like, it's one of the more spiritual experiences you can have in life. To be out in the vastness of the outdoors, seeing these majestic animals in their element, it's just incredible. And it puts, it just puts a lot of things for me into perspective, away from the hustle and bustle. So I'm grateful for that.

awesome experience that I had and getting to name a giraffe Chris.

Me too. Fuck right. Yeah. Oh, that makes me happy. So well, there's my first gratitude for a giraffe named Chris. Right? Absolutely. Right? Yeah. Somebody sees a meme coming on. Anyway. I'm also grateful, of course, for social media and reconnecting with Jen. I think this conversation has been...

One of the better ones we've had. I don't want to say the best because the other guests will hear it and they get all jelly when I do that. But certainly you're in the top five. Let's put it that way. Right.

Chuck LaFLange (01:18:43.582)
I'm also grateful to every single person who continues to like, comment, share, watch, you know, do all the things, talk about the show, all the things down at the bottom, hit those buttons. Because every time you do any one of those things, you're getting me a little bit closer to living my best life. My best life is to make a humble living spreading the message, and the message is this. If you're an active addiction right now, today could be the day. Today could be the day that you start a lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call into detox, pray, go to church, I don't care. Do whatever it is you gotta do to get that journey started, because it is so much better than the alternative.

If you have a loved one who's suffering an addiction right now, you're just taking the time to listen to our really fantastic conversation here. If you could just take one more minute out of your day and text that person, let them know they are loved. Use the words.

You are loved.

You are love.

That little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings them back. I forgot to tell you. Fuck.