245 - RYAN BATHGATE

Chuck LaFLange (00:02.79)
Hello everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds. Welcome to another episode of the Ashland's Tossing Podcast. I'm your host Chuck LaFlange checking in from Krabi, Thailand. Halfway around the world is my very good friend and co -host Ryan Bathgate. How are you doing today, Ryan?

Ryan (00:17.87)
Yeah, I'm okay. I'm okay, Chuck. You know, I've been away for a while, as you know. Not away, but putting a premium on mental health and wellness based on, you know, some consequences of the life we live, to be honest with you. And it's been humbling, it's been eye -opening, and...

I went and got myself a few new, diagnoses along the way, so... Yeah. I shouldn't say new diagnoses, I was just like, you know... When shit falls apart, stuff just starts coming up again, and so... I'm experiencing clinical depression again, and social anxiety disorder, and general anxiety disorder. which is...

Chuck LaFLange (00:50.95)
okay. Well, there you go. Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan (01:12.078)
I mean, it's been, I've been in and out of this my whole life, so it's kind of like, great, here we go again, you know, but I like to think that this is mostly situational and when this situation rectifies itself, I hope to be back to normal somewhat. You know, to be honest with you, Chuck, I'm never gonna be the same. No, not after the last two, three months, no, I'll never be the same again.

Chuck LaFLange (01:35.302)
No, no.

Ryan (01:40.846)
some, some, in some ways good and some ways bad. but, mostly I'm going to say mostly good, although like, you know, the, the old saying, you don't learn fuck all on your good days. Well, I've been doing a lot of learning. yeah, yeah. And so, you know, it's, it's. Fuck it. It is what it is, man. You know, we.

Chuck LaFLange (01:57.67)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan (02:08.142)
I guess I have a lot to say about the helping professionals. I have a lot to say about self -care and mental health. And then there's always the principles that are lived by by many people in recovery communities all over the world that seem to work quite well in maintaining and prolonging a sustainable...

existence of peace through the by pro as a with a byproduct being mostly sobriety rate so Man I'm I know one way to get to do this thing and Unfortunately the fucking way I don't like hey, you know Lots of meetings step groups step work

Chuck LaFLange (02:50.662)
Yep. And what's that?

Chuck LaFLange (02:57.542)
Which is...

Ryan (03:06.158)
You know, therapy, lots of therapy. So I've been doing a lot of therapy for myself, which is a whole new fucking world for me. And...

Yeah man, it's just like... You know, you ever sit and think like, I wonder what the next really shitty thing is gonna be. I don't know if you're that moron, but I fucking do.

Chuck LaFLange (03:31.91)
that's when you're I think when you're in that state of mind in in in a depressed state of mind, whether or not it's depression or whether or not you're depressed, because I think it's safe to say there's a big difference between the two. But when you're in that place, yeah, I think that's kind of where things go by default, right? Yeah, you're, you know.

Ryan (03:51.593)
Yeah, it seems like lately it's just it's all been It's just been a while since I've had a good day. That's it. I'll tell you You know, and we have there's so many factors going on like it's just it's almost unbelievable Obviously the loss of one of my closest friends has impacted me to a great degree And then you know

Chuck LaFLange (03:59.462)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (04:15.59)
Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan (04:19.401)
All the drama that comes along with that, it just, It makes you want to just crawl into a hole and fucking hide away from the world. You know, and so...

Chuck LaFLange (04:26.278)
Yeah. And it's a peculiar thing. I think if if it were me saying this to you as a therapist as in a professional capacity, of course, we don't do that on the show. But for the sake of this conversation, if I was saying that to you, you know, this is this drama, it's affecting me, you would say to, you know, separate yourself like that all the things, you know, like, you know what I mean? But it's such it's an easy thing to do. It's an easy thing to say. And it's a really hard thing to do. Right? You know,

Ryan (04:49.644)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (04:56.166)
you know.

Ryan (04:56.327)
Yeah, you know what though, like, I will say like, when shit hits the fan, you really find out who your fucking friends are, man. And yeah, it really is. And like, so what's happened is, is like, you know, I, okay, so I'll just get to what I'm talking about for the listeners. After many years of consistent sobriety, I relapsed. My relapse was relapse over time.

Chuck LaFLange (05:05.51)
Yeah, that's a true story. Yeah.

Ryan (05:26.631)
that got progressively worse and ultimately ended in obsession and me burning everything down. And like the classic fucking formula, I am the guy that I used to think when I was 21 in meetings and looking at going, God, I'm not that guy when I'm 46. You know what I mean? That's that's that's me now. And I got the you know, we we have this.

Chuck LaFLange (05:49.062)
Yeah.

Ryan (05:56.422)
fucking you need for uniqueness you know everybody wants to be treated the same but everyone wants to be different you know and like so the uniqueness

Chuck LaFLange (06:07.494)
I'm glad I'll interrupt you again there buddy. I'm glad you said it because I wasn't I was trying not to use the R words. I was like, is he gonna say it? So you said it. So you know, relapse right and now that's

Ryan (06:18.341)
I know, and I wish I had a better term. I do, like I do, I wish I had something, because what it was was a complete decompensation of the human spirit is what happened. The more that my spirit, my soul died, the stronger my ego got.

Chuck LaFLange (06:22.118)
Yeah, but yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (06:31.91)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (06:37.767)
Yeah. Yeah. And so.

Ryan (06:38.981)
And I think there's a direct correlation there. The ability to be connectable is the ability to be spiritual. And the ability to, when we're not connectable, then typically we're dealing with anger and ego. Whatever the protective agents are, right? And so, you know, as you know, and as every listener probably knows, like arrogance is something I struggle with, and I always have. And it's gonna fucking kill me, man. It's gonna kill me.

Chuck LaFLange (07:06.47)
Yeah. So that is it? Is that the biggest factor in you getting to the R word? Is that is ego? Is that in your mind?

Ryan (07:17.508)
well I put, to be honest with you, I put a lot of thought into this. when I think about me sitting in a, pre -trial jail cell, realizing that, you know, even, you know, you appreciate this, even there I'm looking around going, I'm fucking better than everyone in here. You know, like, just,

Chuck LaFLange (07:24.294)
I'm sure you have, you know.

Chuck LaFLange (07:45.134)
Of course you are. Yeah.

Ryan (07:47.875)
You know and then you know go I go back to myself, but you know something happened in that cell and It changed to change everything You know there's old saying there's no atheist and foxholes I hear that well

Chuck LaFLange (08:03.558)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, many times, yeah.

Ryan (08:08.579)
You know, I,

Ryan (08:13.378)
Yeah, I sat in there and looked at my life, looked at how I got there, looked at all the shit what happened. And so, like, I'm gonna be really honest with you.

I never ask for fucking help.

Chuck LaFLange (08:31.974)
No. No.

Ryan (08:33.122)
No, and I built a reputation and an optic that allowed me to hide behind it and fool everybody, including myself. Yeah, and so...

Chuck LaFLange (08:49.542)
Yeah, you did. Yep.

Ryan (08:56.897)
And that's fucking gone. Like, that, that, that, yeah, like I, I, you know, like I'm, I, I'm, I'm just fucking, to be honest, I'm struggling with all the things that we struggle with. Self -esteem, self -worth, self -respect. Am I good enough? do I deserve things? And especially with like, you know, I can't get into events, for certain reasons, but.

Chuck LaFLange (09:25.638)
Yep.

Ryan (09:26.177)
You know, they say that you'll go do things that you never thought you'd do before. And I did something that I never... ever... ever... and I... you know, I was in a blackout so I didn't even know until I heard about what I did in a court document, which I can't get too far into that because it's still proceeding.

Chuck LaFLange (09:31.462)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (09:43.014)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (09:48.07)
Of course not. Yeah. And really, at the end of the day, you went way outside of your what you thought you were ever capable of. And I think that's enough detail about that, right? We don't need to we don't need to breast set out too much. But

Ryan (10:01.856)
Yeah, and you know, like Devin said it best, it's like, you know, it's not you. That's not you. It's not who I know. And so, and then what happened is like every single friend of mine that is in the world of, let's, I don't know, in the communities, well, in the communities, that's who showed up. That's who showed up to tell me that I'm okay, that I'm not a fucking monster, that I'm not.

Chuck LaFLange (10:19.654)
recovery. Yeah. Yep. Of course he did.

Ryan (10:30.559)
a bad person, that I am a human being that made a mistake, a big mistake, but it's still a mistake. And like, to me, it's just so...

Heartwarming so I'm gonna tell you I'm probably gonna be really emotional this entire time

Chuck LaFLange (10:48.198)
all and that's to be expected and perfectly okay of course, right.

Ryan (10:51.423)
Well, so yeah, I know. So like, Devo picks me up from jail and he took, he confirmed what I thought. Cause I thought the crown made it up. I don't, my history, I don't trust the judicial system. and I thought they made it all up cause there's no fucking way in God's green earth that I would ever do anything like that. And so he confirmed it with me.

man, it was just like...

I can't explain how.

Ryan (11:23.838)
low, how disgusting, how much I hate myself. I don't right now, but I did. And I'm sitting in... So I go back to the jail, so I'm sitting there and I'm like, what point did I fucking start to hate myself? Because that's not who I am, man. Like I'm... I've always been confident and you know, like fuck I have self -esteem issues like everyone else, but...

Chuck LaFLange (11:45.702)
Yeah, right.

Ryan (11:52.542)
to actually hate myself and try and push away every single human being that I love.

Yeah, and I realized the day that I did and started to hate myself was the day that I turned my back on the person that I had built. So this is about a week before I ever took a drink. That's the moment I started to hate myself. The moment I decided that my life wasn't good enough the way it is and I needed to add drugs and alcohol. And really there's so much more behind it after doing fucking all this therapy in the last three months. There is...

Chuck LaFLange (12:29.99)
Of course. Yeah.

Ryan (12:31.165)
Well, like, my fear of love is unbelievable that I didn't even know existed. And, like, I've always said that I'm a lone wolf, I'm better off on my own, and it's bullshit. The reality is, is that I am so afraid to love somebody and be hurt again like I did with my sister, that I won't let anyone in.

Chuck LaFLange (12:36.358)
Wow. Wow.

Ryan (12:57.5)
And they, and I have this little thing where I can hold my hand here and, but any time I can push off and at any time I can go and not really be affected by somebody walking out of my life, you know? and so.

Chuck LaFLange (13:12.55)
Yeah.

Ryan (13:17.739)
I'm gonna tell you

I love my kids.

Ryan (13:26.587)
More?

More than anything I can think of.

Ryan (13:37.499)
And they had to see me in a state that I don't ever want anyone to see me.

Chuck LaFLange (13:45.702)
that long that may. Yeah.

Ryan (13:47.866)
especially them. And so I've made commitments.

myself and then for me and that is that

They will never see me fucked up ever again. The children will never see me in the influence of everything. As long as I have breath in my fucking lungs. And as long as they have breath in theirs, they will never see me messed up. And that's something I'm unwavering on. My responsibility now is to make sure that I never get to a place that I think it's okay for me to pick something up again. And

Ryan (14:31.29)
Yeah, and obviously like...

You know, I love Marina and her scene like that. Like it's just traumatizing. And it scared the shit out of me. You know, it scared me to know that that can exist, that evil can exist within me. And I just, I'm battling with this like, maybe I'm not a good person. Like,

Chuck LaFLange (15:04.742)
we know that's not true. But we know that's not true, right? We do. People that care about you do, right? We know that that's not true. And you know, Mike says it often, I won't try and quote him, the fact that you're sitting here questioning whether or not you're a good person because of the things that have happened proves that you are a good person, right?

Ryan (15:06.361)
Well, I don't know that.

Chuck LaFLange (15:31.878)
Because a good person or an evil person, a bad person wouldn't question their own actions. Right? So it's oversimplifying and you know, but it's so true. Right? You know, right? So.

Ryan (15:40.505)
Yeah. Yeah, and you know, like... Okay, I like the sounds of that, because it's for a man. If that's a reality, then okay, then we can put that to rest, but I just don't feel like it. I don't feel like I'm ready to forgive myself. I don't feel like I deserve forgiveness. No, I don't.

Chuck LaFLange (15:51.238)
Yeah, right. I know.

Chuck LaFLange (15:57.198)
No.

Chuck LaFLange (16:03.59)
You might not ever be. You might not ever be ready to forgive yourself, right? And I don't know. I don't know. Do you? And I'm asking now. I'm legitimately asking because you are the professional. If you can take yourself outside that, right? You know, yeah.

Ryan (16:08.696)
No, I have to. I have to be here. I've -

Yes, because it will eventually trickle down into my daughter's lives if I don't learn to forgive myself. Then I'll be teaching them the same thing. And so I cannot, I just, it's just like...

Chuck LaFLange (16:25.702)
There you go. Okay.

Ryan (16:32.311)
Yeah man like 25 fucking years Chuck I've been at this 25 fucking years and I have 80 days right now So yeah 82 maybe

Chuck LaFLange (16:48.326)
Yeah, well, you've got 25 years and well, whatever. You still have 25 years though, right? And that's, you know.

Ryan (16:52.822)
Yeah, and you know and yeah, and that is just time but like You know, I've I've I've thrown away some massive amounts of sobriety consecutively All for the same fucking reason and the outcome is the same every you want to talk about insanity like You know, I

Chuck LaFLange (17:16.358)
Yeah, right.

Ryan (17:18.262)
I consumed drugs and alcohol the same way I did when I was 19 as I did when I was 45.

It just took a little bit longer to get to that place of fucking devastation. And the devastation was such greater because there was so many, you know, I don't... The last... Well, the last couple times that I got... You know, I can... I look at it like I got... You know, sober from like... 99 I think to 07 and then... 2010 to... Whenever I drank, 2019 or 2020.

Chuck LaFLange (17:30.598)
Yeah, of course, right. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (17:35.718)
So much more to lose, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (17:54.214)
Yeah.

Ryan (17:54.805)
And when I started it again, and the worst thing that happened was that the consequences were so minimal in the beginning that the insidious nature of that brain shift in that biochemical personality change was so subtle that I couldn't fucking see it myself.

And I experienced obsession for the first time in a long time. And that was the day before I...

blew my life up. Yeah, yeah. And so like that day I was like, I keep describing as like a phone ringing in the distance and nobody's fucking answering. You know what I mean? It's and so for me, like, it's alcohol cocaine. That's my my thing, right? And I went to so I went to work, didn't go away. I went to hit a bucket of balls, didn't go away. I went to the gym for like two and a half hours, didn't go away. And then finally, I fucking broke down.

Chuck LaFLange (18:41.062)
things, what shit. Yeah.

Ryan (19:10.611)
and the rest I can't get into. But, I mean, put pieces together. Yeah, there was a blackout involved. That's all I know.

Chuck LaFLange (19:16.614)
Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Ryan (19:24.051)
And yeah, and then, and then, and then some time in jail and some, and some, and I have some litigation to deal with, at, at, you know what, actually, can you time stamp that and take it out?

I do have a career.

Chuck LaFLange (19:44.582)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

Ryan (19:48.914)
So so what I learned here is that you remember fuck the noise remember that episode?

Chuck LaFLange (19:56.262)
Yeah.

Ryan (19:58.61)
Like there's so much noise man. There are three things that matter to me in this life. And they are my girls. That's it. That's all I care about. I can lose everything else. And so I did say a little prayer to my sister in that jail cell and asked for my family back. And asked for my job back. And asked for my fucking, I didn't ask for money back.

Chuck LaFLange (20:22.374)
Yeah.

Ryan (20:27.473)
just wanted my family to be okay and I wanted to be a part of that.

And so since then I've been doing, you know, two meetings a day. I've been doing, you know, I still see my clients who are awesome. Like I just, I can't talk about like getting emotional, but the way that people are able to see through what I've done.

and tell me who I am in, in spi - like you just did, right? Like, you know, like all my clients agree that -

Pretty much agree that you know like It doesn't mean I don't know how to help people It means I need to learn how to take care of myself And that's the fucking problem is that when you are you know you remember We were sitting Listen, I think we were sitting listening to to you and Devo And Devo saying like yeah, he's got support. He's got Ryan right and then someone asked me. Well, who do you have?

And I had no fucking answer.

Chuck LaFLange (21:45.158)
Yeah, right.

Ryan (21:45.2)
I had no answer. And to be really honest with you, in that moment, that scared me. There was a flag there that I ignored. But, yeah, now, yeah. And so,

Chuck LaFLange (21:53.638)
Yeah, with benefit of hindsight, you know, now you Yeah, yeah, right. Right.

Ryan (22:03.024)
Yeah, so now it's just like, you know, I'm gonna, I mean, this video is gonna be a shift in my message moving forward. Wow.

Chuck LaFLange (22:14.181)
Of course, of course. Yeah, yeah. Well, I can see it. I can see it. I can feel it. I can feel it right through. I'm on the other side of the world and I can feel the shift, bro. You know? You know.

Ryan (22:22.223)
Yeah,

I just, I -

Chuck LaFLange (22:26.662)
So can I take this back for a bit if you don't mind? Okay, yeah, please do. Yeah.

Ryan (22:31.087)
Well hold on, I want to finish my point.

Ryan (22:36.622)
I've been to, I don't know, thousands of meetings, I'm gonna say. Maybe that's a dramatic thing, I don't know. It's funny, my home, definitely, yes, very many hundreds, yes. And so it's funny, my new home group has a picture of the 2005 Worlds Convention in Toronto on the wall. And I'm in the picture, yeah, I'm in that picture. It's hilarious. Anyway, but every meeting I go to, yeah, yeah. Well, it's.

Chuck LaFLange (22:41.798)
Definitely hundreds, many hundreds. Yes.

Chuck LaFLange (22:52.454)
No, and that's where you were, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no shit, eh? Yeah. So now you're that old timer? You're that old timer now? Yeah. Okay, okay. Yeah.

Ryan (23:04.045)
It's coming here this year worlds is coming to Vancouver in 2025. So that's cool. Hey It says in how it works and I'm gonna be quoting the big book just me Yeah, like I said, I I don't know any other I don't know any other way I'm truck I'm with you. This is what I learned is that I tried every fucking way out there. I

Chuck LaFLange (23:17.934)
I'm gonna go to bed.

I just, I'm sorry. I think it's wonderful. I do. I do. I think it's wonderful. Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan (23:32.653)
to be either a successful drinker or to do this thing without having to do the work.

Chuck LaFLange (23:36.517)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (23:40.326)
Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan (23:41.453)
And the only way I've ever had sustainable sobriety is me going, having a home group, service position, doing steps, sponsorship, being part of a community, you know, not missing. Like the home group part is important because of the structure and structure of safety. In every one of those meetings, they read a thing called how it works.

Chuck LaFLange (23:58.694)
Yes.

Chuck LaFLange (24:03.814)
Yes.

Ryan (24:04.716)
and how it works, it tells you from the mouths and minds of the first hundred men and women that wrote this goddamn book, it says there are those unfortunate, they are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. And that right there tells me everything I fucking need to know about what I need to do with my life. And it tells me how I got here. And that was that.

Chuck LaFLange (24:29.062)
Yes.

Ryan (24:32.972)
I didn't, I rarely do see a person fail. The rarely part is the people who are in, who are unable to be honest with themselves. In the last, what, fucking five, six years, I've been completely dishonest with myself about who I am in this world, what I stand for, you know, living this fucking double life, having secrets, like who the fuck is that? You know, and Marina had said to me like one time, like, when did you become a liar?

Chuck LaFLange (24:42.502)
Yes.

Chuck LaFLange (24:57.606)
Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan (25:02.891)
You know? And I was like, yeah, like, I'm not a fucking liar. But I am. But I am. I mean, you know, I lied. I lied about my drug use to everybody.

Chuck LaFLange (25:03.782)
No.

Chuck LaFLange (25:14.022)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, right.

Ryan (25:18.571)
You know and my alcohol consumption and and the weight of that on top of no self -care No, I wasn't doing therapy I was only and I was just working myself into the fucking ground again I Like that's the hard part is it did it again not the real I somebody relapse My son burned out I was in them. I was not sober. So yeah, fuck of course I did

Now I think about it. But I wasn't calling it that because I was the one in a million. I was the one in a million who could fucking figure it out. Just arrogant, arrogant, fuck. So my point really is the focus is on a daily basis. I need to always be practicing being honest with myself first.

Chuck LaFLange (25:54.118)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (25:58.79)
Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan (26:16.682)
and honest with the world, because I don't do secrets well, man. They fucking eat me up. They devastate my soul. So you're gonna ask something before I interrupted you.

Chuck LaFLange (26:24.646)
Mm hmm. Well, you kind of answered it, I think, but we'll do it on point. Is what you did answer this, I was going to ask you what led up to if you had to, you know, if you had to put it into a one minute, say a reel for short content, whatever, right? What leads up to relapse? What what led up to that point? But you and you said all the things you really have, right? Yeah, yeah.

Ryan (26:48.936)
Yeah. So to be specific, I stopped being a member of a, of a healthy community that did the work it takes to fucking.

to mitigate unmanageable disaster.

Chuck LaFLange (27:11.942)
Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan (27:12.872)
And that means like, you know, therapy is not 12 -step work.

Chuck LaFLange (27:18.822)
No. No. No.

Ryan (27:19.464)
Therapy does not help me, it helps the other person. That's something I've learned in this last while here is that, well, when I am as a therapist, I'm giving myself, my emotions, my presence to my client. And I'm matching the emotional turmoil that they're going through so that I can be with them and they don't have to be alone in it. Then they leave.

Chuck LaFLange (27:27.046)
Unpack that.

Chuck LaFLange (27:38.086)
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (27:47.11)
Okay. Yeah.

Ryan (27:50.471)
And I still have that. And then I see the next client. And then I see the next client. And then the next day. And the next day. And I don't have anywhere to put all this stuff. Because I'm not meditating. I'm not using my support network. You know, like, like, fucking Devin said to me, like, we've been friends for fucking over a decade and I've never seen you cry. And I'm like, yeah, that makes sense.

The fact that I... I mean, now I'm an emotional fucking mess. I wouldn't say an emotional mess. I'm emotionally raw. And to be honest with you, until my end goal is completed, that's how I'm gonna have to be. Ultimately, I wanna spend the rest of my life with my family. And that's it. That's my fucking goal.

Chuck LaFLange (28:45.894)
was for you know, to drop a cliche in there. But you know, best part about recovery is feelings, all the feelings and worst part about recovery is feeling all the feelings, right? Like, but it's so fucking true, right? Like, and it's so true.

Ryan (28:53.646)
Yeah, it is and like...

You know, I regulate pretty well. My emotional intelligence is pretty on point. And so what I'm doing here is like, is I'm not...

I'm not traditionally regulating. I'm creating permissions. In other words, so typically when we talk about regulating, we talk about getting back to a balance point, right? You know, like when I'm overwhelmed, I want to come back down. When I'm really low, I want to come up up. So we were talking about hitting a, hitting a manageable, peaceful existence. I'm well that that's that.

Chuck LaFLange (29:22.502)
Unpack that.

Chuck LaFLange (29:31.878)
Okay.

Chuck LaFLange (29:37.19)
Okay. Yeah. So that's the definition of regulating. So what do you mean by traditional though, right? That's, yeah.

Ryan (29:45.125)
That's what any of my tradition. What I'm doing is, it's like, I feel really fucking sad. I miss my little girls, and I haven't seen them in, like I said, 80 days or something. Yeah. Fuck. Yeah. It's really, really fucking hard.

Chuck LaFLange (29:47.686)
Okay. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (30:03.046)
consequences, right? Yeah, fuck. Oof.

Ryan (30:13.604)
Scooby -suck.

Ugh.

I,

It's like everything has become noise. Everything. I don't give a fuck about books and podcasts and jobs and court cases. I don't care about any of it anymore. The only thing I care about is being there for my little girls and being the best version of myself, which they deserve. Remember, they didn't fucking choose me. I brought them into this world. I have a responsibility.

Chuck LaFLange (30:48.742)
course.

Ryan (30:50.18)
You're gonna have to hold on a second. Let's see my phone's dying.

Ryan (31:04.642)
So...

God damn it.

Ryan (31:17.602)
Okay, wait, that didn't plug the phone part in yet. So, I don't know how that's gonna work.

Is that okay for you?

Chuck LaFLange (31:31.014)
sorry, just a second. Yeah, yeah, that's good.

Ryan (31:36.194)
yeah, so like right now it's like lived by the values that I always talk about. Sorry. Which I haven't been doing, which means, honesty, integrity, compassion, effort, commitment.

love like you know and so you know I I I just haven't been able to see my family for for a long time and it really fucking is hard it's really hard and I get into like self -pity and I go through it all man like anger grief like the whole process

I'm going through and it's not it's not linear cyclical. So it's back and forth and then You know, I just

Ryan (32:33.345)
I have regret, which I don't like. Like I, you know, you have those defining moments and after however, 10 years or whatever it was, a sobriety, I remember it at that point, it's, it's work to take, to relapse. Like it is a complete change of lifestyle again, you know? and so it takes a while, but I knew like, as soon as I,

I remember that drink, I was at the ballpark and I held it for a second and thought for a second in my mind you're like, you're gonna fuck this up and I drank and it was fine and then for the next year it was fine and the year after that it was fine maybe a hiccup here and there I'm not exactly great at alcohol and then and then it's cocaine.

And once that hit the scene, it was just a matter of time. And to be honest with you, the obsession was so fucking crazy and I had built myself up to a place that I could not ask anybody for help or let anyone know what was going on with me because of this ego and this like, you know, I was the question answerer, not the question asker. And, you know, and I'll say one thing to that is like, never stop asking questions. Never stop being.

Chuck LaFLange (33:38.918)
Yeah, right.

Chuck LaFLange (33:49.894)
Of course not, yeah.

Ryan (34:01.758)
Even if you are a question answerer, be a question asker. You know, yeah, I mean, and so, yeah, over time and, and, and, you know, you know, like I've, I've had my resentments against the recovery communities. I've had my strong opinions on things that now I don't really give a fuck. Like to be honest with the whole disease thing and all that shit. I don't care. I don't care what it is. All I know.

Chuck LaFLange (34:27.718)
Yeah, that that's interesting. You say that. Because I remember having a conversation with you about about that very thing. And it's like, here's the thing to the person who's going through it, it doesn't really fucking matter what we're going to call it. Right? Like, it doesn't matter what we're going to call it, you know, that that's an intellectual argument to be had. It's an academic argument to be had for the guy who's who's walking into a room. I don't care if you call it a disease or what the hell you call it, right? At the end of the day, it's, you know, yeah.

Ryan (34:44.189)
Yeah.

Ryan (34:48.573)
And this is...

Ryan (34:56.349)
when it comes to the fucking pain of addiction. Like, let's remember addiction is a fucking nuclear circumference that destroys everything in its fucking path. Everything. You know what I mean? And so like, does it fucking matter if it's a disease? Like, does it matter if it was, if it was a hydrogen bomb or an atom bomb? No. No, and so like, I...

Chuck LaFLange (35:08.934)
Yeah, it does. Yeah, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (35:19.27)
No, no it doesn't, right? Yeah, yeah, well said, well said. Yeah.

Ryan (35:23.197)
I still, I still like have my opinions and shit on that, like, but it doesn't matter to me. I can't think of any way...

Chuck LaFLange (35:29.926)
But that's an academic conversation, right? It's not a real life thing. You know what I mean, right? Yeah, yeah.

Ryan (35:36.285)
Where I'm at in my life is that like how does that conversation make my daughter's life better?

Chuck LaFLange (35:44.55)
Yeah. Yep. Right. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan (35:45.82)
doesn't so I don't give a fuck doesn't doesn't qualify don't care think what you want none of my business everything that I do is about making sure my daughters get every opportunity they get and live a happy and healthy and safe fucking life for the rest of their life while having a sober father to look up to

Chuck LaFLange (36:05.606)
who's present in all the things, right? So, yeah. Yeah.

Ryan (36:08.507)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. President of all things. I'd like to be, you know, like the way Marina loves her father. I envy that, their relationship. Like, that's sort of the hero and that's who I want to be to my kids. And I can't do that if I'm not who I am completely to my core. And I cannot be that if I have substances in my body. And this is 25 years later.

This is what I'm fucking finally learning. Here's one for you. 25 years later, I am a, I suffer from substance use disorder. And I can admit that 25 years later and it took that long. Cause always in my mind somewhere, I was telling myself that, no, no, you were young. You were just irresponsible. you've grown out of that now. Your brain has changed. Everything is different.

Chuck LaFLange (37:07.43)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ryan (37:08.281)
You know what I mean? Like, that's the work it took for me to relapse, was that dialogue, those conversations in my head, and not talking to anyone else about them. Because if I did, they'd be like, dude, you're fucking crazy. You know, and it was probably the only time me and Devin actually had it out, was when I told him I drank again. And he was very upset.

Chuck LaFLange (37:26.822)
Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan (37:35.929)
And I was like, well, fine, I'm not telling you anything ever again. He was like, no, no, you're not. You know, that's not what I mean. I'm like, well, that's what I'm hearing. And he was right. He was just like, you know, like, look at how many people we've lost because of the same fucking thing you're doing. And, you know, like I just.

I just,

Life has to be simple again in order for me to be able to find happiness. And I'm not going to be able to find it until all of this is all over. You know, and I've taken a break from the podcast for, because I like, this is the best I've been in 80 something days. You know, it's been really fucking hard, man. It's been really hard and it seems like it's one thing after another. And like,

Chuck LaFLange (38:23.366)
No kidding me.

Chuck LaFLange (38:29.414)
Yeah.

Ryan (38:31.924)
You know, Marina always would always applaud me in my ability to set my mind to something and do it in my resiliency. And I hold on to that right now because everything I'm doing is for my family. It's not, and it's not like to be clear, you know, I really hope that my whole family can be back together someday. But this is about me being a father, not, not.

about me being a partner. And you know, if it worked out, if it works out that, that, you know, it becomes about being a partner as well, great, that's fucking great. I would love that. But it's not, I'll go live in a fucking igloo and flip burgers if it means that I get to see my little girls. I don't give a shit what I gotta do. And there's just nothing else, nothing else in this world fucking matters. Nothing else.

Chuck LaFLange (39:25.894)
Yeah.

Ryan (39:30.935)
in this, yeah, I mean, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to two meetings today.

And I'm gonna go to two tomorrow, actually. I'm gonna go to one on Friday. And then I play recovery ball on Saturday. Like my world right now, I've surrounded myself with people in recovery. I've surrounded myself with people that understand. And most of all, I've surrounded myself. I can see the human being that I am when I can't. And I cannot see.

Chuck LaFLange (39:40.326)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (40:06.086)
Yeah.

Ryan (40:06.613)
myself as a human being right now, I see a fucking monster that doesn't deserve anything. And it's a really fucking hard place to be, but it is consequence. And I just want to earn my spot back with my little girls. And like, you know, I don't, I mean, there's some silver lining stuff, like, you know, I would probably would have never stopped.

without something like this happening or worse. You know, you don't know what kind of fucking animal I can be when I'm under the influence. But I can tell you, it scares me. And then, you know, like, Cammy's two, not even two yet. So she won't ever have to have a recollection of me being under the influence.

And I have the opportunity to talk to Mackenzie about mental health and substance use disorder. You know, and about what that means. Like, I don't like to identify as an addict. I am one. It's a part of me. But I suffer from substance use disorder, which is a clinical diagnosis. Yeah, and so, you know, I'm not the guy that's going to the meeting and saying, I refuse to say...

Chuck LaFLange (41:24.39)
this.

Ryan (41:31.092)
My name's Ryan, I'm an alcoholic. I'll go along with that. Sometimes I say I'm a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. But I mean, there's so much pain that none of that shit matters right now. Like none of it matters. Yeah, I don't even give a shit what you want me to do, what you need me to do. If it's gonna be an investment into my little girl's lives, then I'm gonna do it. I don't give a fuck what I think or what you think. I'm gonna do it.

Chuck LaFLange (41:45.222)
Right, it's no noise, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (41:57.574)
Mike Miller and I had a conversation about that, not in an episode, but one on one. And he said, like, you're there asking for help from this community, just do things the way the community does them, because that's the way the community works. Right? So don't walk in with your difference. And, you know, I want to, you know, just when in Rome, be a fucking Roman. And, you know, take, take what you can from it. But

Ryan (42:23.763)
And that's exactly what I was saying in the beginning. I hate it, but the only way I know how to do this is the way that everybody else does it. I'm not unique. I'm not different. I'm not better than anybody. And right now I feel worse, but I know that I'm getting it to a place where I don't feel worse. It's just...

Chuck LaFLange (42:25.35)
It's just that easy, right? Yeah, yeah, right. I know you do. Yes, right. Yeah, yeah, right, right.

Yep. Yep.

Ryan (42:53.203)
It's been the hardest time of my life, hands down. And you know, that includes the death of my sister, yeah. It's been devastating.

Chuck LaFLange (42:58.47)
You're kidding, eh?

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's losing the people closest to you, which there's a lot of parallels there, so, right? I can see that, yeah. Yeah.

Ryan (43:10.194)
yeah, I mean, a lot of therapy would get me to that spot, but like...

Chuck LaFLange (43:16.742)
Yep.

Ryan (43:17.489)
I just want people to be peaceful and I want harmony and synergy and I just don't really care about anything else anymore. It's not that I don't care, it's just like priority wise, if it has to do with my family, it gets my attention.

Chuck LaFLange (43:38.534)
priorities. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Ryan (43:47.089)
If it doesn't...

And I'm sorry, but I don't have the capacity. And I got a bunch of noise going on right now. It just gives me anxiety. I hate that I can't just block it out all the time, because it does. It affects me, man. I'm fucking sensitive. And I want to be a person that says, yeah, that's none of my business, or that's the way that they think, or that's whatever they're saying, and that's none of my business. And the reality is, it's like, ouch. Like, fuck, man.

Chuck LaFLange (43:53.606)
Fair enough, mate.

Ryan (44:20.625)
Fuck. You know, like, I've worked most of my life hard to help people. And it sounds victim -y, I know, but sometimes it's like, come on, like, is there not any thing there? Is it just like, Ryan's a fucking drug addict that relapsed? Like, that's what I've become to a lot of people.

Chuck LaFLange (44:21.222)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (44:29.03)
I have.

Chuck LaFLange (44:34.342)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (44:46.694)
something that occurred to me a long time ago, maybe not as long ago as it could have, but is that if you believe that shit about me, you don't know me well enough for your opinion to matter. And you said it yourself, you've got this whole community of people, this whole community of people that is seeing you for who you really are. And if there's a subset of that community, that's going to say whatever they're going to say, bro, and you know all these things. So I don't need to fucking tell you, I don't. But you know them, right? You know, the people that matter.

The people who know you well enough, the people who care, they know who you are. Right? You know, so fuck them. Right? You know, you know.

Ryan (45:21.262)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, you know, but I'd like to in theory. Yeah, but Emotionally it still gets me

Chuck LaFLange (45:30.214)
But it's not in theory, it's true. But what are feelings? Where does rationality play into feelings? I think somebody said that to me once. That's right, that was you. Yeah, yeah. Right, so. It really was. I remember the episode it was in. Yeah, right. So, yeah. You know these things. I can tell you these things. Your therapist can tell you these things. Your friends, your community can all say that shit over and over again. But I understand that.

Ryan (45:41.09)
I know it was... I know, something I say, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (45:58.694)
It's much easier said than done. I do understand that. Right? Yeah.

Ryan (46:02.925)
Yeah, yeah. And yeah, so like, right now I've just got things in the way that, you know, as a consequence of my actions that are making things really hard. And what I have to do is live by the principles and values that are me, be consistent in those and constantly be investing in my daughter's lives. And that's my plan. So,

There's a meeting to go to Ryan, do you feel like going? If that doesn't fucking matter, go. You know what I mean? Like, what I feel about it doesn't matter. It's an investment into my daughter's future. That's all I give a shit. That's all I care about. Yeah, and so I'm gonna go. Whether I like it or not, it doesn't matter. You know, I'm gonna do step work. Whether I like it or not, I don't like step work. For the record.

Chuck LaFLange (46:38.502)
Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Chuck LaFLange (46:45.414)
Yeah, right. Good, good. Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (46:56.614)
just I gotta tell you there's a part of me that's like, kind of like key imagining you're doing your step work sitting there with your fucking journal, writing out your step four.

Ryan (47:08.62)
I've done so many of them over the years.

Chuck LaFLange (47:10.754)
I'm sorry. I know you have. I'm sorry. Yeah.

Ryan (47:15.724)
And to be honest with you, it's become robotic. And that's, so I struggle with that, where it's like...

Chuck LaFLange (47:24.646)
then it loses efficacy from there, right? So this time though, is it like when you get to your four, if you're not there already and whatever, wherever you are in your process, but is it robotic this time?

Ryan (47:26.604)
Yeah, and like, it's...

Ryan (47:37.292)
I have to be mindful. It does start to become robotic and I have to catch myself.

Chuck LaFLange (47:40.262)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (47:46.278)
I think the fact that we're having this conversation gonna lends itself to maybe not so much this time around, right? You know, the fact that you are aware of needing to be aware, if you will, right? You know?

Ryan (47:57.547)
Yeah, yeah, and again, this is only one reason that I am focused on being aware. It just doesn't change. And I don't want it to for the rest of my life. I want that to be the most important thing in my life.

Chuck LaFLange (48:03.974)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (48:07.718)
course.

Chuck LaFLange (48:13.318)
Of course you do. Of course you do.

Ryan (48:14.25)
And then the rest is like, I've had to take a good hard look at who's in my life.

Chuck LaFLange (48:20.934)
Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan (48:21.706)
And there's a bunch of people that aren't going to be anymore because they haven't earned it. And I've lost some friends through this, through judgment, and just, I guess, not understanding. Like I said, the people that came to help were people that understand. They're the people that know what it's like and know that.

Chuck LaFLange (48:44.646)
Yep. Yep.

Ryan (48:50.634)
being under the influence of it. So it's not me, but I'm responsible.

Chuck LaFLange (48:56.87)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's when I get diagnosed with diabetes, it's up to me to get it treated. Right? Same as any anything else, any disease, any whatever you want to call it, right? I still have to be the one to get it treated. I can't sit around a bitch about it and continue to eat cake. Right? If it's just never gonna get better. So it's kind of the same thing as you know, once you know, you know, it's up to you to deal with it. Disease or not, you have to be the one to

Ryan (48:57.002)
Does that make sense?

Ryan (49:04.682)
Yes.

Ryan (49:15.85)
Yeah.

Ryan (49:26.28)
Yeah, disease is not, yeah. Yeah, and like, fucking who cares if it's fucking disease, like... So, you know, and then the other side of that is like, you know, I feel like my private practice has gotten a lot richer in my work, and I feel like my clients now are getting a lot more than they were out of me. Just...

Chuck LaFLange (49:26.566)
to get the treatment, right? So, you know, right? Yeah, right, so.

Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (49:52.934)
I would think that would be less robotic, for lack of a better term.

Ryan (49:56.168)
Yeah, and it really has, and it's become like, you know, I'm literally processing deep emotion every day, all day. So when somebody, you know, it's easy for me to match that emotional state for my clients because I'm either there or I was just there or some kind of similar feeling that's under the same umbrella, you know, like.

Chuck LaFLange (50:20.454)
Well, I mean, two meetings a day, that's a lot of empathy. So you're in that you're in empathetic mode a lot. Which I mean, probably has its own taxing on your fucking well being. But to walk into a therapeutic session, feeling empathetic can't be bad for that session, right? You know, so.

Ryan (50:33.384)
Yeah.

Ryan (50:39.944)
No, no, yeah, no, and that's true. And like, you know, I still see my clients same time at night and, and, yeah. And then in, in, in, in, in the day, I'm like, I'm, I'm really focusing on not working too much, even though my days are full somehow. but not like, like it was, I really believe that a big part of the relapse was,

Chuck LaFLange (50:58.79)
Yeah.

Ryan (51:06.534)
being unrealistic with my own capacity around how much I can help and how much I can do. And then the need for validation for helping people, which I think is, again, it's a fool's errand. Anytime I'm looking for extrinsic validation that I'm stepping into a trap. And of course, like, you know, I tell people these things and don't live by it. And like, so now I'm trying to live by my own fucking advice.

Chuck LaFLange (51:35.494)
Yeah. I could argue that's a fool's errand. In reality.

Ryan (51:35.973)
You know, which is... fucking meat. Well... There's a saying to that. You might as well take my advice, I'm not using it.

Chuck LaFLange (51:48.666)
Right, right, right.

Ryan (51:49.605)
Yeah, and so I'm literally I'm thinking like, you know, what would I tell someone to do in this situation and then I do that whether I like it or not And yeah, I've forfeited my my right in my ability to be arrogant and better than I forfeited my my I guess the notion that I know anything I've you know, like I

Chuck LaFLange (51:58.534)
Yep. Yep.

Yeah, right.

Ryan (52:20.773)
I am, literally a 46 year old man rebuilding from fucking nothing. Again. Again.

Chuck LaFLange (52:31.206)
I can relate to that, my friend. Right?

Ryan (52:33.189)
Like fucking again. Like that's hard to swallow.

Chuck LaFLange (52:38.822)
Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is.

Ryan (52:39.733)
And you know, my, my, my, my, and my girl's slurfer. You know, like, I know that,

Chuck LaFLange (52:47.014)
Yep.

Ryan (52:52.549)
They ask about me all the time. And that's really fucking hard.

They're not... They're not mad at me.

Chuck LaFLange (53:05.062)
you know, well, that's...

Ryan (53:05.635)
They just want to see their dad and it's because of what I did that they have to suffer.

Chuck LaFLange (53:11.622)
Yeah, right.

Ryan (53:13.891)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (53:14.662)
keep doing the things you need to do. I don't need to tell you that though.

Ryan (53:18.323)
Yeah, yeah, you know, some days are harder than others, I guess, you know, but I'm hoping that this, all this is...

Wrapped up here in the next couple weeks. It's been a long fucking process. I've been doing a lot, like I said, I've been doing a lot of therapy. I'm starting some new stuff. And I gotta say like, TWC Stacey Wilson has been so fucking supportive. Yeah, like I can't.

Chuck LaFLange (53:57.862)
Awesome. Awesome.

Ryan (54:00.899)
I can't say enough about that about Stacy and his just he's an ED and he makes time to make sure I'm okay. And he's, you know, offered to help me with some therapy stuff through his organization. It's just like, fuck man. It is like, I, you know, I can't afford fucking anything right now, which is so, it's been a long time.

Chuck LaFLange (54:21.542)
That's incredible.

Ryan (54:31.426)
since I've had Evan broke, like it's been a long time. And so, yeah, so I just like Stacey, just, he's just such a good human being that wants to help. And I'm really grateful for him. And there's.

Chuck LaFLange (54:33.926)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (54:45.574)
Yeah. Well, you know, if we're going to give him a shout out, we'll give him a shout out for a second too, right? That was the first sponsor I ever had for the show. Really carried the weight for the first damn near year. Right. You know, it was like 10 months, nine months, nine months or 10 months of sponsorship that who knows between him and Devon both. Maybe the show doesn't even exist. Right. They were the first two people to step up to the plate for me here. So, you know, right. Yeah.

Ryan (55:00.001)
Mm -hmm.

Ryan (55:10.273)
Yep.

Ryan (55:13.761)
Yep. Yeah, and like, yeah, fucking Devin, man. I fucking miss him, man. I really miss him. He was my... I didn't use him as a support, but he was my support. I don't know if that makes sense. The comfort of knowing.

Chuck LaFLange (55:31.366)
Yeah, it makes sense. It makes perfect sense. Yeah, yeah, it does. Yeah.

Ryan (55:34.337)
And I wish I would have used it more, but, and I did, you know, in, in, in, you know, since that happening, he was, you know, he took a week off work just to be, to just spend every day with me, you know, while I was fucking devastated and like, you know, I couldn't, I couldn't go 10 minutes without fucking crying hysterically for a week at least, you know, and then,

Chuck LaFLange (55:49.478)
Wow.

Chuck LaFLange (55:59.59)
Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan (56:03.711)
Yeah, he just, he made sure... He made sure I was okay. And yeah, and I don't want to get into... Anything more than that other than I really miss my fucking friend.

Chuck LaFLange (56:21.03)
sure you do.

Ryan (56:22.398)
Yeah, I really do. I do.

Chuck LaFLange (56:25.798)
Wow.

Ryan (56:28.062)
Yeah... Shit, what the... I don't have a clock on here.

Chuck LaFLange (56:33.318)
Well, we're you'd be sitting at 11, 20 after 11 for you. So it'll be time to wrap this up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So with that said, That takes us to my favorite part of the show. And that's daily gratitudes. And they may not come rolling off your tongue this time, but these are the times when they're the most necessary, right? So which God for us today, right?

Ryan (56:40.19)
Yeah, I gotta get to that nooner and I'll be there.

Ryan (57:00.318)
I can't. My little girls.

Ryan (57:08.478)
of

I know I say this every time, but...

my - yeah, my little girl's a marina.

Ryan (57:20.958)
I'm so grateful for them. I'm so grateful for the people that have seen past my behaviors and seen the person that I am.

Ryan (57:39.07)
And I'm grateful for fucking... I'll be honest with you, I'm grateful that I lived. And I'm grateful that I have the opportunity to give my little girls the best life possible.

And that's what I got.

Chuck LaFLange (57:57.798)
good one.

Chuck LaFLange (58:03.494)
I'm grateful that you live too, bro.

I really am. I'm grateful that you're back on the path. I'm grateful that you're gonna get back in your girl's life. You know, I know those things are gonna happen. I'm grateful you're back to being you.

Ryan (58:23.196)
Thank you. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (58:23.302)
Right? Because we love you. So, yeah.

Ryan (58:27.228)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (58:29.654)
I'm also grateful to every person that continues to support our platform. That likes, comments, shares, all those things. Every time you do those things, you're getting me a little bit closer to living my best life. My best life is to continue making a humble living, spreading the message. The message is this. If you're an active addiction right now, today could be that day. Today could be the day that you start a lifelong journey. Reach out to your friends.

Reach out to your family members, call in the detox, go to a meeting, pray, go to church. It doesn't really matter. Just do whatever you gotta do to get that journey started, because it is so much better than the alternative. If you have a loved one who's suffering an addiction right now, just take the time to listen to our very frank, honest, and open conversation. You just take one more minute out of your day and text that person, let them know they are loved. Use the words.

Ryan (59:22.62)
You are loved.

Chuck LaFLange (59:24.774)
That little glimmer of hope could be the thing that brings them back.