187- WEEKEND RAMBLE - SAFE SUPPLY? HELPING OR HURTING?

Chuck (00:01.223)
Hello everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds. Welcome to another episode of The Weekend Rumble on the Ashes to Awesome podcast. I'm your host Chuck LaFlange and I am in Thailand for this recording and for all future recordings as it goes here. With me of course are my two lovely co-hosts. We have Attica in Vancouver on the downtown East Side. How you doing Attica?

Atika (00:24.438)
Hi, good Chuck, how are you?

Chuck (00:26.983)
I'm excellent, I'm excellent. I'm hot, I'm a little sweaty. I'm trying to mitigate that, but here we are. And of course we have Lisa in Calgary. How are you doing today, Lisa?

Lisa (00:32.592)
Yes.

Lisa (00:37.838)
I'm very good. Thanks. How are you?

Chuck (00:40.055)
I'm excellent, excellent. It's been quite the journey here, and I guess maybe we can just start off by talking about that, because I have an ego and I'm a bit narcissistic, but you know. I'm in Thailand, that's a thing. I'm in Phuket at the Yachter Treatment Centre right now for some trauma treatment for a 30-day residential program.

Lisa (00:52.062)
Hehehe

Chuck (01:01.875)
haven't started the programming yet. That'll be on Monday. It's right now Saturday night here, Saturday night late here actually. So right now, like Friday, it was just kind of getting used to things. They don't do programming on the weekend. I went to the night market tonight, which was interesting to say the least. Huge, just huge, right? Yachtray itself is just the most amazing place. You know, there's a guest here, one from Luxembourg, one from England.

We've got to chat quite a bit. I can't really say anything more about them, of course, because of confidentiality, right? And you've seen the videos online. If you haven't seen the videos online, to anybody who's watching or listening to this now, check it out, they're on the Facebook page. And I'm trying to upload a couple a day anyway. There's just so much, so much, right? I've got my GoPro and I've got more footage to upload to the site than you can imagine, right? That's all. So.

So yeah, that's happening. It's a pretty amazing experience so far. Mike Miller invited me over. That's in a big dose of generosity and I'm gratitude beyond words. I'm grateful beyond words, the whole experience, right? People who supported me through the GoFundMe and some private donations outside of that as well. The two of you as well, of course, are on that list. Thank you, by the way, Attica, for your donation as well last week. So yeah.

That's that. I guess that covers that. Is there anything, you guys got questions about what's going on here or, you know?

Lisa (02:30.237)
Yeah.

Lisa (02:35.23)
I mean, yeah, I'm a little bit curious about a lot of things. Ha ha ha. So you start programming on Monday? Is that right?

Chuck (02:40.092)
I suppose you would be, yeah.

Chuck (02:45.723)
Yes, yeah, yeah. So that'll be Sunday night for you, Monday morning for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lisa (02:50.118)
Yeah. And do you know what that looks like? Like, is it sort of all day for six hours a day or?

Chuck (02:54.259)
Well, I have a schedule, no, and it's very relaxed, right? It's very relaxed. So there's like some EMDR in there. There's yoga. There's mindfulness. The whole day is kind of.

mish-moshed with different things, right? And, well, the whole week is kind of set up that way, right? So I have next week's schedule. And the thing about Yatra is they, everything is so individualized for you that, and it never even occurred to me now until you asked me about that, Lisa, but I have no doubt the reason I don't have next week's schedule is because that'll happen when we figure out this week and what, you know, as a result of this week, right? So I think that's kind of cool that they do that.

Lisa (03:32.03)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Chuck (03:37.629)
Everything is so individualized here. I mean, the meals are individualized. I don't like spicy food. They just changed their whole world for me, and there's no spicy food on the table all of a sudden. And it's pretty cool. And let me fucking tell you, bananas. I love bananas. Like, I love bananas. Now I really love bananas. They just taste totally different here, right? Like, totally different. Yeah.

Lisa (03:48.113)
Yeah.

Atika (03:57.39)
Right, the bananas in like, you know, that side of the world is like, it's not just like this one banana, like yeah, it's like there's like the smaller bananas and like I used to eat bananas like crazy, like it's like the real banana, like I don't know what that it here is like sad bananas, it's boring, it's just one shape, right? Yeah, yeah, sad banana.

Lisa (03:58.207)
Yeah.

Chuck (04:02.935)
Oh, it's a dessert.

Chuck (04:12.827)
Yeah.

Chuck (04:18.491)
Sad, sad bananas. Yeah, yeah, there you go, right? Yeah, that'll be today's episode. That's the name of your podcast, right? Like, Brooklyn Nine-Nine, name of your sex tape. That's what I'm always like. That's the name of your podcast, right? Sad bananas. Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, yeah. That's funny, I have to remember that one, Attica. Yeah, go ahead, Lisa.

Lisa (04:21.272)
I think that's the name of the show. I think that needs to be the name. Sad bananas.

Lisa (04:32.194)
Yep. Sad bananas. And then Chris, are you assigned to one of the therapists? Like will you have a main therapist that works with you?

Atika (04:36.138)
I'm sorry.

Chuck (04:46.835)
Well, Mike is the EMDR guy, right? Like he is the EMDR guy. So Mike Miller, of course, who's been on the show for anybody who's listening.

And then they've got different therapists for different things. So it really is a holistic approach that they use here. There's just so much coming at you. And as it goes, I'll definitely be documenting those experiences. I mean, obviously not sharing the in-therapy stuff, but certainly some of the insights and some of the things that I get from therapy I'll be sharing as we go. So yeah, it's pretty cool.

Lisa (05:15.806)
Hmm.

Atika (05:17.654)
Do they assign you like, is there like a psychiatrist or like a counselor there?

Chuck (05:23.827)
They're all there. They're all here, right? So I don't have like a caseworker per se if that's what you mean kind of thing It's not big enough for that right like right now. There's only three residents here, right? So it's not it's not and I think they max out at seven. I think is where the max is right? So Yeah, it's just not big enough to have like caseworker kind of style thing, right? So yeah

Atika (05:28.735)
Mm-hmm.

Atika (05:34.225)
Hmm.

Lisa (05:38.078)
Okay.

Lisa (05:45.394)
Yeah. Look at that.

Atika (05:45.917)
Mmm.

Chuck (05:48.943)
This is in the fridge in my room, right? A bunch of these, you know, like that's some old school stuff happening there for you, right? Yeah, yeah, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ah, as am I, as am I, right? So it's an adventure. I am super happy over here. What's not to be happy about, right? Yeah, yeah. It was funny today, I've been fortunate in my past to do some traveling, right? So we're at the night market.

Lisa (05:55.682)
Love it. I love it. I'm very happy for you.

Atika (06:00.286)
Yeah, you seem super happy over there.

Atika (06:07.751)
Yeah.

Chuck (06:16.903)
And I'm looking at, oh, she would like that. He would like that. Of these souvenirs, it's like, fuck, I'm not here for souvenirs, because I'm not going home. I'm actually here for some stuff I need this time. Was this a whole new, that kicks in five times a day. It's like, this is home now. This is home now. This is holy shit, right? That's what this is. So that's kind of a cool thing to have kick you in the butt a few times a day. So, yeah, right, yeah, yeah.

Lisa (06:29.338)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Hmm. Yeah.

Atika (06:36.695)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (06:39.806)
Totally. Yeah.

Chuck (06:42.776)
I ended up bringing my entire computer with me, right? So instead of getting a laptop, right? So that's interesting, getting that fucker on a plane and getting it all set up and, you know, right? So.

Lisa (06:53.502)
And so was it in your check bag?

Chuck (06:55.611)
Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was. Yeah. Unfortunately, I've been a packer mover most of my life. So like if anybody could get that fucker in there and keep it safe, it's me. You know, right. I got to tell you, though, like the one side of it's a glass panel. So like for me to unpack it and that be undamaged was like, yeah, OK. Still got it. Still got it. You know. And it was like 51 pounds. I was actually over by one pound, right. On my weight, like everything was because I'm packing my whole life is, you know,

Lisa (06:57.086)
Okay.

Lisa (07:03.783)
Wow.

Lisa (07:15.207)
Amazing.

Lisa (07:25.362)
Yeah.

Chuck (07:25.625)
three bags so that was interesting.

Lisa (07:30.263)
And so before you went to Thailand, you went back to Saskatchewan.

Chuck (07:33.747)
Yes.

I did, I did. To visit family and reconnect, things took a turn. That wasn't part of it. Like, it wasn't supposed to happen that way. I was going in the city to meet somebody, spend some time with an old girlfriend, and that didn't play out the way it was supposed to. So I ended up reconnecting with some old friends, and that was tough. That was tough.

I saw things through a lens of sobriety and not just sobriety, not just recovery, but because of this show and as you all know I'm very, I'm hyper empathetic, right? And trying to help people so much for the last year, to see the things that I saw, it was, it was heartbreaking, right? Some survivor's guilt, you know? And I'll talk about...

Jess specifically, the one I spoke about in the video on Facebook. So people can maybe get some perspective about what the reality is for so many out there. You know, Jess is a sex worker. She's homeless. It's getting cold. It's this is it's Regina. I ain't no joke. Like this cold is cold there. And she starts out her day dopesick every day. Every day she's got a.

hustle up enough money to turn into crypto, to get an online ad going, to be an escort, to find a stranger, to sleep with her, to get the money, to get the dope. And by the time she does all that, she owes so much that what she does get to keep is just enough to get her through to the next one. And that's her day. That's her fucking day, all day, every day, right?

Chuck (09:24.643)
And her family's, you know, she's been estranged by her family. I've I and I've known Jess for years. I knew her before opiates. You know, I knew her when it was just coke and crack, you know, that kind of thing, which is such a ridiculous thing to say. But. It was really it was heartbreaking. It was heartbreaking, right? I don't know.

Lisa (09:44.11)
Yeah. And it's the reality for so many people.

Chuck (09:48.031)
for countless people, for countless, I don't even know, like I could've spent three weeks visiting people and not run out of people in my life that I wanted to see and connect with and try and reach out to, right? Here's the thing, even now after a year, even now with all the resources I have and connections I have and people, I don't know how she gets out of that. I have no idea, right? You know, I think, I know.

Atika (09:48.577)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (10:15.174)
Yep.

Chuck (10:18.719)
The reality is, statistically, I'll probably never see her alive again. I know that. And it's fucking horrible, and it's sad, and it's, but I mean, what do we do, right? We just got to keep doing what we're doing. So we're back early on, right? But yeah. So.

Atika (10:39.358)
Yeah, I find that being a frontline worker, I see that when people are getting sober, they have a different relationship with dope, right? They have, they, they gone through this thing where they, they were, you know, users and then, you know, and then, and then they, they changed their relationship with dope. And now...

They have this different relationship with dope, but because of that, I see a different kind of relationship with people who are sober, versus basically to people who are still using drugs, basically in their entourage. Sometimes I see like, there is, there's still like empathy, but I also see a lot of cases where it's like,

Chuck (11:22.299)
in it. Yeah.

Atika (11:38.958)
they're almost stigmatizing the people that are still using, which is...

Chuck (11:44.499)
because I did it, this is what you can do kind of thing, right? Like, this is what I did, this is what you need to do. And I understand that to a point, you know, at the same time, at the same time though, my journey is so much different, right? And these are two perfectly good...

Atika (11:47.878)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Atika (11:54.467)
Yeah.

Atika (12:00.598)
Yeah.

Chuck (12:02.503)
Perfectly good cases, mine and hers, right? I have this vast network of people who are like, welcome back, Chris, welcome back, come back into the fold, you know? Give me a hug, yes, we support you. She doesn't have any of that.

Atika (12:05.742)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (12:17.675)
She doesn't have any of that. And maybe she has more than she realizes. She probably does because you've heard me often say the perceived lack of connection is the boot on my neck. But it's so hard to even think those things, right? It's so hard to even wrap your head around that when you're just trying to fucking survive. I said.

Lisa (12:38.207)
That's a conversation I remember having once with my brother. And he was homeless at the time in Edmonton, middle of winter, living in a storage unit. And I remember saying that to him. I said, I feel like you're so busy trying to survive each day.

Chuck (12:41.652)
Yeah.

Lisa (13:02.342)
that you're never stepping back and realizing and seeing the chaos that all of this is, or seeing and realizing that you can hit stop. And not everybody can. You know, again, he was fortunate that he had a family who had the resources and the desire to help.

Chuck (13:14.525)
Yep.

Lisa (13:22.79)
But I remember spending that day with him. And that's what I was hearing in the story, was just, he was trying to survive the day. Like he couldn't, there was no time, there was no time, there was no space. Query, you know, was there the mental capacity? You know, that's a separate topic. But there was no time, like he was so busy trying to survive, literally, like literally survive, have food to eat, you know.

Chuck (13:34.441)
Yep.

Chuck (13:48.051)
Yeah.

Lisa (13:51.522)
somewhere to get warm for a bit, drugs so he didn't get dope sick, that he couldn't even step away and have the perspective I had. Like I was listening to this and I was like, this is just stress and chaos and shit. And I was just like, just come with me. Like, let's just stop. But again, such, you know, yeah, just wrapped up in the chaos of it and the survival of it.

Chuck (14:06.643)
fucking right. It's right. Yeah.

Chuck (14:16.073)
Yeah.

Chuck (14:19.719)
Yeah, right.

Atika (14:20.494)
So I've not into like, you know, it's not like I'm into math or whatever, but I remember when I was homeless and it's all about like surviving, but also being preoccupied with the trauma and the PTSD that you have, the nightmares that haunts you. And I would, I would

find places to sleep in downtown Vancouver. I would like sleep in a dance studio. I would like sleep at the gym that opens super late or things like that. Like no fixed address, like no fixed place to sleep. And I would like text my friends or things like that. But it's like, you barely get sleep. You don't get sleep. And that's, I think when Lisa was saying like, okay, we'll just get out of that chaos.

Chuck (15:07.431)
Yeah. All right.

Atika (15:14.75)
It's so hard because your full-time job is just tending to your own trauma, to your needs to survive and finding places to sleep is so hard.

Chuck (15:24.331)
to avoiding more fucking trauma. Right? You know, yeah, you're right, you're right. So.

You've only got so much capacity, anybody does. So when all of your time and energy is going into surviving the next half an hour, day, whatever, how do you possibly think ahead? How do you possibly do those things? And again, I'm a fucking year into it. I know so much more than I did a year ago, and I couldn't tell her how to do this. I couldn't. Not that she would listen anyway, because again, she's too busy trying to survive, but I don't know. I don't know what the answers are, right? And it's a really...

Atika (15:34.624)
Mm-hmm.

Atika (15:40.302)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, you can't.

Chuck (16:01.511)
which led me to, and this is not about me, it's about her, but the survivor's guilt that I feel now when I'm here. And it's overwhelming at times, because it's like, fuck, right? Like how many people just got left behind? And they didn't, because I'm doing everything I can to help and I think this is my calling, but that's the rational side of Chris. The irrational survivor's guilt is just, it's something.

Lisa (16:27.526)
know why I'm going to ask this question, but I'm still curious. Like, do you think that if Jess had an avenue to wellness, do you believe that she would take it?

Chuck (16:30.4)
I'm sorry.

Chuck (16:40.815)
I do in this for her particularly because she just experienced two months of clean, right? Of sobriety, right? So just, and she relapsed. And like she wanted it, she wanted it really bad. And she was, that's part of the reason that we've connected again, because when she was clean, we were talking every day.

Lisa (16:46.944)
Oh.

Chuck (17:00.059)
And then all of a sudden you see it, okay, there's a couple days, now there's a week, and it's been two weeks, I haven't heard back from you, and it was a month, right? And I know what's going on in that time, and you try and explain. She's finding reasons not to, like, oh, well, this guy, my guy, you know, he was a guy that helped me get clean, or it was my mom, or, it's like, okay, but helping her to understand that she's the one that got clean.

That was you that did that. That wasn't because of this person. You did those things. You decided to stay clean. And she was using oat, but whatever. Methadone, Suboxone, whatever it was. Whatever works. So in this case, yeah, I do think that. But now her family, and here's the fucking thing about relapse, it's almost better.

Lisa (17:38.846)
Thank you for watching.

Chuck (17:54.075)
I shouldn't say that. It's almost worse. When you get better for a minute and then you relapse. I think for the families, that is so hard to accept because they get their hopes up. And you commit yourself to, okay, my loved one is, this is where they are at in life. I'm ready for that phone call. I'm ready. And I don't know, I'm not the loved one, right? I haven't been there, Lisa, you can certainly relate to that more than I can.

you commit to that and then they get better for a minute and then they relapse. And how crushing that is to that loved one. And now they have to survive this too though, right? Like you have to shift, you know?

Lisa (18:28.414)
I'm.

But I think for me, it's also, and I feel like this is something that I'll do with families, you know, is that don't catastrophize the relapse. It is a relapsing, remitting chronic illness. Obviously the hope is that people obtain abstinence or sobriety and they maintain it. And for me, being on OAT is not lacking sobriety. Like, so whatever you need to do, do it.

Chuck (18:43.285)
Yep.

Lisa (19:02.342)
But if people relapse, I think the worst thing that the people around them can do is make it a big deal, which sounds kind of silly. But I think the person themselves, when they relapse, it's already a big deal. They don't need their family to highlight it and catastrophize it and make it bigger. And to me, it's not about if you relapse, it's about what you do with it.

Chuck (19:16.413)
Yeah.

Chuck (19:29.276)
Yeah. Right.

Atika (19:29.794)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (19:30.974)
Clean time's not lost. You know, like if you've had two months clean or a year clean, you've still had two months clean or a year clean. And, you know, it's like, the worst thing for me is that when there's two, when the shame is overwhelming around a relapse, that people can't talk about it, they can't admit what's happened, that just fuels them to stay stuck in the relapse. And that's the problem.

Chuck (19:38.569)
Yeah.

Chuck (19:56.632)
which was a case for me, right? 100% when I relapsed last year, right? So without a doubt.

Lisa (19:58.53)
Yeah. It's like, okay, like there's been a relapse, what are we going to do? Like, you know, to me, and you can learn from a relapse, like, what led up to it, like, that the focus, that's what the focus should be.

Chuck (20:06.183)
Yeah, yeah, so. Fuckin' right, you can, right? One thing I found very, and to that, speaking to that very thing, one of the things I found super interesting about it, and now through this lens, that I never would have thought of before,

Atika (20:14.302)
Yeah, like what do you learn this time? Yeah.

Chuck (20:26.083)
She spoke about, I remember calling, I remember thinking, I can do this, I remember, but I don't know what the fuck was going through my head. I don't like it all of a sudden, it's tomorrow, and I'm back on the street, and I'm relapsing, and it's next day, and it's next day. And she kind of spoke about how that, it was this automatic thing that just happened, right? And Ryan and I have spoken about that quite a bit, the neural loops, right, that kicks in, so whatever it was for her that triggered it, you know, she doesn't even remember really clearly

process that got her to that point, much like myself with my own relapses. I can tell you, I remember making the call, all those things, but I don't remember why the fuck I did it. I just remember that I did it.

Lisa (21:06.45)
Well, it's like if you're in the woods and you turn around and there's a grizzly bear standing there, right? Your reptilian brain activates to try to keep you alive, right? You're gonna just act, you're gonna run. You're not gonna sit there and go, hmm, there's a bear. I wonder what I should do. Should I stand here? Should I run? That's not gonna happen. It's an instinctual action of your reptilian brain to make you act to keep you alive. When you look at someone in active addiction,

Chuck (21:18.921)
Yes.

Lisa (21:33.97)
That's the part of their brain that's turned on, that is hyper lit up, and the frontal lobe, where you would go, hmm, is this a good idea? Should I? Shouldn't I? What would be the consequences? That's not working. And so what you're describing is actually biologically exactly what is happening to somebody.

Chuck (21:48.948)
Yes.

Chuck (21:53.435)
Yes, right. So explaining that to her, and here's where the podcast and this network of people, the next time I talk to her, I'm going to use that verbiage to explain it to her. Because I know this. I know exactly what you're saying, but I was having a really hard time verbalizing it. So maybe that'll help her take some of the guilt off of that. And the other thing is, is I have her mom's number. I'm going to reach out to her mom.

Lisa (21:54.727)
You know?

Lisa (22:13.568)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (22:23.499)
Well, maybe, maybe I can help her is that connection, right? So, yeah.

Lisa (22:26.266)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And the other thing I think with the shh, sorry.

Atika (22:29.972)
Yeah. My friend of mine... No, no, no. You go first. You go first. You go first.

Chuck (22:33.183)
Go ahead, Attica.

Lisa (22:35.867)
Just to close this, but like the, I think with relapse, there's, I don't know.

Chuck (22:38.279)
Fucking Canadians. Sorry. No, it's such a Canadian thing, right? No, you go first. No, no, no. The polite, I'm already catching it here, the difference. Yeah. No, you hang up. OK, go ahead.

Lisa (22:43.494)
No you go, no you go, no you go.

Lisa (22:49.106)
But I think that there's the shame of relapse, which leads to secrecy. And there's also, I've also witnessed where when people have a relapse, they get defensive about it, which I think is still shame rooted. But I think it's either the shame, the beating yourself up, the secrecy, the defensiveness.

Atika (23:04.983)
Yeah.

Lisa (23:10.518)
That's the danger of a relapse. And I think that the more families and friends catastrophize a relapse, the more that somebody in it is encouraged to kind of let that loop play out.

Chuck (23:23.859)
Yeah, yeah, without a doubt, right, without a doubt.

Atika (23:25.062)
I see that. I was gonna say, so I know someone who is basically for what, six years? And a very close friend of mine, I would think of her like a brother. And she, like he finished college, so he's really educated. And his dad is an engineer. And mom was abusive but basically like also smart. He got into addiction.

And then when we met, he was basically had like eight months of sobriety. So it was like, you know, knowing him and, you know, we became good friends. And then yesterday when I was attending, sorry, a few days ago, when I was attending the funeral of my friend in the, in the, in the hood, he, I saw someone like, I want coffee, like trying to get it from my hand.

And I was like, yo buddy, what the heck? So I was like, are you serious? Like this is my coffee, I need my coffee. Like don't do this. Like you want coffee? Ask me, but don't take it from my hand. And I looked at like his face and I'm like, oh my God. There it is, my friend relapsed. Just in the worst, worst shape. And I just, oh my God, you need to come with me. There's like some food in the memorial. There's some.

hot coffee, go take my coffee. Like, you know, but the tough thing is like, I ask him like, what do you learn this time? You know, cause he didn't get places to sleep this time. Like it's the worst shape that I've seen him. So, you know, it's like, yeah, it's like you wanna help them. You kind of want to respect their self determination, but you also wanna help.

you also want to intervene it's if there's that dilemma right oh

Chuck (25:30.095)
Yes, right, which is a conversation that we've had many times here on the show so far, right, since you've been co-hosting with the Satica. And I think it, you know, that goes back to that Mandate of Treatment idea, and fuck if I could just get you like here for just a minute to think straight, you know? Like, you know, go ahead, Lisa. Ah. No.

Lisa (25:35.535)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (25:42.354)
And then I think.

But imagine your child, okay? Like imagine your child. Like, you know, you're talking about your friend and hey, I've got great friends who I love, who I would help, you know, to the ends of the earth. When it is your child. I mean, yeah, you know, before I had, I had Alexis late, right? I was in my late thirties when I had her and you know, I had a dog and I was like, I'm a dog, mom, you know? And like,

Chuck (26:02.42)
Yes.

Chuck (26:06.664)
Right?

Lisa (26:14.35)
No offense to the dog moms in the world, like I get it, you love your dog, I'm there with you. But like I would, you know what I mean? Like the experience that I've had as a mom.

Chuck (26:21.273)
Yeah.

But now if your dog bit your child, now if your dog bit your child, how much of a dog mom are you? Like there's a fucking different level of things there.

Lisa (26:29.934)
Yeah, it's, I almost feel like as a parent, it's it borders on like a crazy, like it's a crazy, like I'm just like, you know, and so, yeah, I mean, I've been pretty vocal about it. But yeah, I'm all about mandating treatment. And so

Chuck (26:36.851)
Yeah.

Chuck (26:46.739)
Yeah, right. And you've heard me say, and I've talked about it, I tell people all the things I'm supposed to when a mom calls me or messages me for advice. You've got to be there. You have to make sure they know they're loved, all those things. But if it's my kid, if it's my niece or nephew, ah, fuck. I don't know. I don't know what I would do. I don't know what ends I would go to. So.

Atika (26:48.092)
It was actually

Lisa (27:06.386)
Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Lisa (27:11.92)
Yep.

Chuck (27:12.991)
Fuck, it's scary, man. Scary, right? Um, ah dear.

Lisa (27:17.142)
Chuck, can I ask you about spending time with people from your life who are still using? What was that like for you? Did you ever feel like you were walking on thin ice where you're like, oh, this is really easy to slip back into?

Chuck (27:23.186)
Okay.

Chuck (27:32.167)
I was aware of that. Fortunately, I wasn't around my drug of choice, which helps a lot, right? Like a lot, a lot. But there's coke and crack and meth, right? And I guess there was some meth around, but meth was never extremely compelling for me. It was, you know, but yeah. And now, had I been around crack?

Atika (27:41.698)
What was your DOC?

Atika (27:48.278)
Oh... No... Yeah, crack okay and same as my friend.

Chuck (27:58.195)
There's no, like, yeah, no, I would have had to get the fuck out of there. Like, that's how that ends. Right? I don't think, I'm not that strong. I don't think I'm in a place right now where I could be hanging out with a bunch of, no, right? So I really like crack. But through this lens now, right? Because of the show and because, like, I just, that's where all my focus was, right? It wasn't on...

me or my troubles, it was just like, I wanna connect with all of you, I want all of you just to come with me and I want all of you to be better and what can I do, right? Like it was just, it was really hard actually. It was really hard to leave and you know, I had a hard time getting a ride back to Moose Jaw, which almost turned out to be a good thing because it really just gave me that chance to connect for a little bit longer and you know, yeah.

Lisa (28:27.373)
Aww.

Lisa (28:32.965)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (28:46.302)
I was very worried about you.

Chuck (28:48.431)
I know you were.

Lisa (28:51.566)
I was hunting down Norma.

Chuck (28:51.719)
I don't even think you knew what was going on. I know, I heard, I heard. And you know, I woke up to a message from my mom, God bless her, that said, I think you might be relapsing right now, please, if you are, just come home. And I immediately called her. The moment I read that message, I was like, okay, I'm gonna call her. I'm gonna make her feel better about this right now. And I don't even know if I did make her feel better about this. She said it in the way mom says it, and it wasn't accusational, it wasn't any of those things. It was the way you should handle it

somebody might be relapsing actually, right? With warmth and with acceptance. I took no offense to that. It took me a long time to get to a point where mom thinks that. It's gonna take a long time for her not to default to that, right? If ever.

Lisa (29:24.059)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (29:27.707)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (29:37.623)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chuck (29:39.487)
But I'll tell you what I did though. I screenshot that message and sent it to the girl that was supposed to be driving me back to Moose Draw and said, can we get our shit together now, please? Because this is where my mom is right fucking now. This is where my mom's thoughts are. Could you get your ass over here and drive me, please? And took me to the end of that day still, but finally I did get back there. So, yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (29:57.658)
the crazy that is me, Attica. I called Chris 20 times. I went and counted 20 times. I called him. I texted him 12. Yeah. And I was and then I had on WhatsApp and on your cell phone. And then and then I went to Norma and I was like, Norma.

Atika (30:02.522)
I remember.

Chuck (30:07.379)
Really? I didn't know that.

What? When? On what?

Chuck (30:17.755)
I did not know that. I did not know that, Lisa. I am so sorry. Oh my god. I had no idea. I have to go back and check my history now. Oh my god, you did it that many times. Jesus. I knew you were like when mom told me. Why? But, Kate, fuck that. Because here's the thing. For the same reason that I didn't take exception to mom's message, I went two years with the perceived lack of connection being the boot on my neck. And a lot longer than that, realistically.

Atika (30:28.299)
Yeah.

Lisa (30:28.43)
I actually thought you were going to look and think that I was crazy.

Lisa (30:43.282)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (30:47.967)
To have people that give a shit about you? Fuck no, right? I would never, ever, like, I don't take offense to it. When my buddies' wives are like, man, you're gonna really watch what you're eating, I'm like, oh, thank you. Thank you for caring, right? You know, like, I don't, I appreciate it so much more now than I ever did, you know, right? Because I didn't have it for so long, or at least I felt I didn't have it for so long, right? So thank you, Lisa, thank you. That means a lot, actually, fuck.

Lisa (30:50.657)
Mm. Yeah.

Atika (30:59.689)
Bye.

Lisa (31:02.206)
Oh

Lisa (31:06.823)
Yeah.

Lisa (31:13.112)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, hey, I'm glad you're okay. I was like, Norma, I can't find your son. You know?

Chuck (31:17.483)
Oh. Ha ha ha.

Atika (31:19.17)
I'm sorry.

Chuck (31:22.483)
idea, right? Jesus Christ, had I realized it was that, I would have called you back right away too. I'll have to look, maybe I just saw it like missed call and then because of course it doesn't show you how many times, I'm just gonna start scrolling, so wow, okay, fucking crazy Lisa, look at that, I haven't had a crazy Lisa in my life in a long time.

Atika (31:22.99)
Two mums.

Lisa (31:28.716)
Yeah.

Lisa (31:32.934)
Yeah, it's all good. I'm just glad you're okay. But that was the reason I was asking that is

There you go. Everyone needs a crazy Lisa. Right? But that was my worry is that I was like, you know, part of my brain, part, yeah, crazy Lisa, that's better. You know, Dr. Lisa, crazy Lisa, take your pick. But it was like, on one hand, I was like, you know, he's strong. He's strong. He's, you know, like you were focused. You have a plan. You know?

Atika (31:42.318)
Everyone, it's a crazy Lisa.

Chuck (31:49.227)
Fuck, now maybe that's it, that's the name. Oh, go ahead.

Lisa (32:09.99)
But then there's that other part of me that also knows that people, that, that decision can just like a switch, right? And then suddenly, like you said, you're waking up the next day going, how did, what did I do? Like, how did I end up here again? You know? And so, you know, I always wonder, like, that's something, not living in it, and being a family member is just that, you know, that question of

Chuck (32:26.857)
Yeah.

Chuck (32:30.635)
Wow, that's humbling.

Lisa (32:38.942)
being around the old life, being around the people from the old life. And that's something that I worry about a lot. Like it's a huge fear of mine. Like not again that I have anything against people in that life. And I would do anything I could to help people in that life. But when it comes to a loved one or a friend or somebody who's working their sobriety, I'm terrified of, you know, the one who's...

Chuck (32:54.779)
But yeah.

Lisa (33:08.45)
early in their sobriety being around. Yeah.

Chuck (33:13.511)
And with good reason, with good reason, right? Without a shadow of a doubt. And had I stayed any longer, who knows, right? I knew it was time to get the fuck out of there because it was time to get the fuck out of there, right? But without the show, I'm sure it doesn't end the same way, but because, well, without the show, none of it happens in the first place, but.

Lisa (33:16.399)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (33:34.279)
Because of, you know, I have this drive now that I've never had before, I have a purpose, I have, you know, all of those things that makes it much easier for me to, you know, to stay strong. Let's take a minute. We're just going to cut to a quick break here and we'll be right back. Okay. I just wanted to stop recording because it's getting laggy, so.