246 - ANGIE HAMILTON

Chuck LaFLange (00:01.814)
Hey everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds, welcome to another episode of the Weekend Rumble on the Ashes to Awesome podcast. I'm your host Chuck LaFlange checking in from Krabi Thailand. Halfway around the world of course in Virtual Studio is my beautiful co -host Dr. Lisa. How you doing today Lisa?

Lisa (00:16.717)
I'm doing okay. You know, topic, something we'll talk about another day because I'm not ready to talk about it. But you know, people watching the podcast know that we lost somebody who I love dearly. And yeah, I'm struggling with it. But I'm doing okay.

Chuck LaFLange (00:43.126)
Well, I'm glad that you're able to come on today and hopefully we have a great conversation. Also in Virtual Studio from almost as far around the world, from me anyway, where I'm not sure where in Ontario is Angie Hamilton. in Toronto, Ontario, right? Is that accurate?

Lisa (00:49.229)
Exactly.

Angie Hamilton (01:01.664)
Normally, right now I'm in Muskoka though.

Chuck LaFLange (01:04.854)
Okay, let's go, Ontario. Angie Hamilton from FAR Canada, who is, of course, one of our esteemed sponsors on the show. So, how you doing today, Angie?

Lisa (01:05.389)
Angie Hamilton (01:15.424)
I'm fortunately not dealing with grief today, just dealing with frustration. So we'll get into that.

Lisa (01:16.749)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:20.754)
Yeah, we will. Yeah, we will. So, and just there's been a lot of newcomers to the platform in this past couple weeks. So maybe before we get into that, Angie, do you want to give us kind of the quick what is FAR? You're here to explain it. It's so much better than me doing it, right? And let's do that. Establish who you are and then we'll get into the topic at hand.

Lisa (01:29.229)
you

Angie Hamilton (01:37.184)
Sure.

Yeah, sure.

Yep. So FAR stands for Families for Addiction Recovery, and we are a Canadian registered charity founded in 2016 by basically parents who had young teenagers actually struggling with addiction. And we were formed because the needs of our families weren't being met. We're active in three areas. We provide free peer support through three different services, one -on -one help,

a live phone line and group support to other families and caregivers going through the same thing. And we educate about what addiction is and what it isn't. And we advocate for the policies that we think that are needed in order to improve outcomes for our loved ones.

Chuck LaFLange (02:32.79)
Awesome. I'm really glad that I asked you that because I always forget to include the group component when I'm doing your mentions as a sponsor. So I'm going to have to get better at that. So thank you for bringing that up, right? And...

Lisa (02:42.093)
Angie, when was it established?

Angie Hamilton (02:45.312)
2016.

Lisa (02:46.989)
2016.

Chuck LaFLange (02:48.31)
Okay, okay, so.

Angie Hamilton (02:48.48)
Nestle, yeah, eight years, wow.

Chuck LaFLange (02:51.926)
Yeah, no kidding, eh? I imagine the growth in that time is just, it must be something you're proud of. I would hope that it is. I mean, you've gone from nothing to something, so, right?

Angie Hamilton (02:59.744)
Yeah, I mean, yes, but it's, it's just, it's, it, this is a hard area to be active in. I think everybody who's part of our community knows that. I mean, honestly, when we started in 2016, the opioid crisis was just kind of like taking off. And that's not why we were formed. We were going to be celebrating recovery and bringing hope, right? And supporting families. It's like, I don't know a lot of people, like,

Chuck LaFLange (03:11.35)
Yes.

Angie Hamilton (03:29.216)
People are grateful to be in recovery. I just don't know a lot of people who are kind of out there actively celebrating, because if you're in recovery yourself or you're a family member, you know, you've lost people and you continue to lose people like it, like Lisa and you, you know, in the last couple of months, it's just, and so how I'm so impressed with people who can stay in recovery when they're losing so many friends.

Chuck LaFLange (03:56.79)
Well said, well said, right? And you know, we had a chance to talk about that earlier today when we were talking to Angie. And it's something that we've talked about on the show quite a bit. And of course, one of my other friends slash co -hosts, Ryan Bathgate, what was the term he used about apathy, Lisa, if you can remember?

Lisa (04:11.021)
apathy is, he describes apathy as a duvet. And that, you know, we all sort of experience apathy and that it's not a bad thing. And he thinks of it again, it's like a duvet that at times we just need to hide under. So that we're able to then refresh ourselves and come back again. And, you know, I've,

Chuck LaFLange (04:22.038)
Yes.

Chuck LaFLange (04:38.742)
Yeah, right. And I think... Go ahead. No, I don't want you to interrupt. Go ahead.

Lisa (04:43.757)
No, just that, you know, I, it's nice because I think in general, when I think of apathy, I think of a symptom of depression. You know, when I think of apathy, I think the opposite of compassion and caring and support. But I feel like Ryan sort of sort of normalized it with that expression, because I don't think any one of us, you know, whether we're ourselves, whether we have lived experience in addiction, and we're currently in recovery, whether we are working as

you know, medical professionals, whether we're family members, no matter how compassionate we can be, we can't sustain that all the time. It's, you know, we all experience compassion fatigue, which I think is another, yeah, right? It's another one of Ryan's statements, I think. And so I think we all go through periods of apathy, and I think they're necessary. So I think to not judge ourselves, but to appreciate that, you know, it's us taking care of ourselves and giving ourselves a break.

Angie Hamilton (05:25.152)
It's exhausting.

Chuck LaFLange (05:27.03)
Yeah.

Lisa (05:42.893)
Because it is, as Angie said, it's exhausting.

Chuck LaFLange (05:43.19)
Yeah, yeah, right.

Yeah, it really is. It really is, right? We talked at length about that earlier today too. It's just, huh, right? If you let it, if you didn't get those bursts of apathy or, you know, take a break from the compassion with compassion fatigue, there's no way it's sustainable. It's just not. Not, and you said it well there, right? You know, good example of that, we used to do Memorial Mondays, right? On Ashes to Awesome here. I had to stop because once a week I couldn't do it anymore.

I just couldn't. For my own mental one, I mean, that's another topic altogether. But that said, go ahead. Of course.

Lisa (06:23.853)
You know, can I say something else, Chris? Another thing, you know, that has kind of come up over the last few weeks, talking to mutual friends about this person we've lost, particularly for those who are in recovery is...

they've experienced so much loss and it almost becomes normalized. You know, that's not to say it's not, they're not sad when they lose somebody, but people who have lived in, in recovery, who've lived lives, you know, with addiction, I don't think I've met one of them who can't string off a list without effort of all the friends they've lost. And it's

Chuck LaFLange (07:13.526)
Yes, yes, right. And it...

Lisa (07:14.957)
devastating. Like.

Angie Hamilton (07:17.376)
And in fact, I think some of them have guilt because there's so many they might not in the moment come up with all the names, you know.

Chuck LaFLange (07:26.774)
100 % I did for a black balloon day last year. I did I tried to string together all that like the Memorial Mondays and do like a picture thing. Terrified terrified that I was it missed somebody and I did. So then I got a message from my mother. Hey, so and so never made it. I was no.

How messed up is that? That there are so many people that I actually missed somebody that we had done a memorial episode for, right? Well said to that, Angie. And I mean, hey, that kind of feeds what we're talking about here anyway, our bouncing off topic and kind of what you've been so passionate about lately in your advocacy. There's always something with you, Angie, but.

Lisa (07:54.029)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (08:12.758)
Why don't you tell us what's happened in Ontario, just so we can kind of open up the conversation with that and see where it goes, right? So, yeah.

Angie Hamilton (08:19.808)
Okay, so maybe I'll try to do the Cole's note version, because I could probably talk for an hour now and not take a breath. So I'll do Cole's notes and there may be things you don't understand and then you can ask me, right? But basically, I mean, I think everybody knows that BC has been doing a pilot project since January, 2023 on Decrim and Toronto, the city of Toronto asked

Chuck LaFLange (08:24.502)
Yeah.

Angie Hamilton (08:49.12)
and they had an application into the federal government to do the same thing just within the boundaries of the city of Toronto. And the government in BC actually backtracked a bit, not in general with respect to decrim, but they did say we need to recriminalize drug possession in certain public places because...

the police were saying there's no way for us to intervene with respect to public drug use. So people were using in restaurants and in playgrounds and that kind of thing. And so they backtracked a bit and then the federal conservatives jumped on the bandwagon and said, see, it doesn't work and it's terrible and everybody must backtrack. And then what happened was the...

media asked the federal government, well, what about, what does this mean for Toronto? And then they started interviewing Toronto Public Health and interviewing, you know, Rob, sorry, Doug Ford. And basically as a result of all this, the feds said, we're not going to entertain a request from any other city unless they have the backing of their province. And then Ford,

and some of his ministers wrote to Toronto and said, over our dead bodies, we're not going to approve or support Decrim for Toronto. And since then, both the federal and the provincial governments have got up and criticized Toronto's application, which in many ways was broader than BC's. And I sat on an advisory panel for that. So I'm...

I've been, you know, our organization has been working on Decrim since 2016, something we really believe in, something we got the support of the medical community on, and it's all falling apart. And it's, it, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (10:53.11)
What's more than that though, if I can interrupt, even like the Chief of Police in Toronto, if I read correct, was also behind this. I think that's a key element here too, right? I mean, it's definitely not nothing to get his stamp on that, right? So, yeah.

Lisa (10:56.077)
you

Angie Hamilton (11:00.752)
yeah, and... Yes, and - and -

Angie Hamilton (11:07.904)
Exactly. And the same in BC and like the, yeah, so the whatever that is that there's a Canadian Association Chiefs of Police that are behind it. So nationally as well, right? So the problem is we're not doing decrim right. That is the problem. And, you know, some concerns we raised were not being addressed. So that's in a nutshell, I think what's been happening. So it would appear that

Toronto's application is dead, that the federal government will only now consider applications from provinces. And so conservative provinces are never going to ask. And the question I have is, how does this come down to party lines? This isn't a political issue. This is a health issue. And it does. It always comes down along political lines.

Chuck LaFLange (12:03.062)
Of course it does, right? Can you, in your mind, Angie, why is decrim so important? What is the goal? What are we trying to accomplish with that?

Lisa (12:03.693)
Mm -hmm.

Angie Hamilton (12:10.88)
That's a really great question. And to me, what it is really is reducing stigma, which everybody would say, but the party line of advocates is usually reduce decrim because then everybody's gonna want treatment. I don't believe that for one second. I'm telling you right now, I don't believe that. Decrim because,

Chuck LaFLange (12:33.654)
No, no.

Angie Hamilton (12:39.584)
Until we do that, we are saying people who use these drugs over here, the illegal drugs, whether they have a problem or not, are bad people and criminals, whereas these people over here who are using these legal drugs, like alcohol and cannabis, and that may actually be harming other people, doesn't matter, they're good people, right? So we have this false thing, depending on whether the drug is legal or not, and your body,

doesn't know if a drug is legal or not. Your body has no clue. It's just going to respond based on you. And some people are going to have a problem and some people aren't. And that's why this is just... And the discrimination prevents, to me, funding treatment on a parity for addiction and mental health.

Lisa (13:24.365)
Hmm.

Angie Hamilton (13:34.08)
you know, compared to physical illnesses. That's the reason to me. I don't believe that decrim means everybody's going to want treatment all of a sudden and, you know, I just don't believe that.

Chuck LaFLange (13:42.966)
Of course not, yeah. Yeah. No, no, no. Lisa, what are your thoughts on that?

Lisa (13:49.165)
so many. I feel like my mind, my... So, I mean, I've actually never thought of it, Angie, and like you said, it's so eloquently, but I've never thought about that line of legal versus illegal and how there's so much more stigma. And again, it's, when you say it, it's so obvious. It's like therapy. I always tell people.

When people do therapy, it's not rocket science, you know, but you still need to be guided through it to get there. cause it, it, it is so, so obvious when you say it, but I'd never really thought about it. And, you know, and it ties in for me, this is kind of going off on a different tangent, but one of the things I've noticed in the hospital is that since cannabis has been legalized, we see so, so, so many more people in the hospital.

with cannabis -induced psychosis. And I've spoken very openly with some of these people who are coming in once they're better, and a lot of people will say to me, and so it ties very well in with what you pointed out, Angie, is I've had people say, well, I didn't use cannabis till it became legal.

Chuck LaFLange (15:05.526)
So now it's okay, right? Yeah.

Lisa (15:06.189)
And somehow they think that's like a ticket that it's okay, you know, and I think a lot of people interpret legalization as it's it's been deemed safe by somebody, you know, And it's not. I mean, if you look at the data and I think actually with Rob Tangay and Dr. El -Gabali Dr. El -Gabali once tasked me as a medical student to read like

Angie Hamilton (15:10.048)
Yeah.

Angie Hamilton (15:18.176)
Exactly.

Lisa (15:32.269)
every paper on cannabis going back to 1972. I've read a lot of papers on cannabis. But when you look at the data, I mean, the data, you're talking there about like what, 50 plus years of data that I read about on cannabis. And the reality is, is it's very well known that THC gets you high and makes you psychotic. You know, I think there's a lot of medicinal values to CBD and I don't even think we've probably fully tapped into them.

Angie Hamilton (15:36.904)
Oof.

Lisa (16:02.189)
But THC, which you know, there's a lot of THC in the weed that's out there nowadays. It doesn't do anything good for anybody, but a lot of people have this idea that because it was legalized, it's okay. You know, and the other thing the data shows us is that the earlier you start to use cannabis, the higher the THC of your cannabis and the more cannabis that you use in terms of quantities and frequency, the higher your chance of developing schizophrenia, you know.

Angie Hamilton (16:02.432)
Hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (16:15.51)
Yeah, yeah.

Angie Hamilton (16:30.272)
Right.

Chuck LaFLange (16:30.774)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (16:31.245)
I'd love to take every teenager who wants to go smoke weed and say, come with me for an afternoon and let me show you what you're playing Russian roulette with because you might think twice, you know? But again, so a lot of people are smoking weed who wouldn't have smoked it. And a lot of them, without me saying anything, like I don't really care if what you're smoking is legal or illegal. It makes no difference to me. I'm not a police officer. But a lot of people think that that legalization,

Angie Hamilton (16:36.096)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (16:36.374)
Yeah.

Angie Hamilton (16:42.432)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (16:42.55)
No kidding, right? Yeah.

Lisa (17:01.005)
means it's okay, you know, so it very much ties in with what you're saying about the stigma piece.

Angie Hamilton (17:02.656)
Yep.

Angie Hamilton (17:07.52)
Yeah, and yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (17:08.022)
It sure does. It sure does. Now, go ahead, Ed. Go ahead. I'm still forming a thought there. So, yeah.

Angie Hamilton (17:14.304)
You know, it, yeah, I just wanna, I just wanna add something else because an argument I just, you know, in favor of decrim that I don't hear anybody and that's different than legalization, right? Legalization of cannabis. Like decrim is just, we're not gonna arrest you if you've got a little bit on you for your own personal use, you know, as opposed to, and it's still illegal to sell it. That's decrim, right? And legalization is, no, now it's legal to sell.

Chuck LaFLange (17:29.238)
Very different, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (17:44.662)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right.

Angie Hamilton (17:44.832)
Right? So one of the ways I like to look at the decrim issue and pry it away from legalization is pry and it's my legal background because I was a lawyer. Like prior to 1972 in Canada, it was illegal to attempt suicide because it's bad for you. So if we criminalize it, nobody's going to do it.

Chuck LaFLange (18:08.566)
I thought it still was, so it shows what I know. It's okay. Yeah, I thought it still was so shows what I know. Yeah, okay. Okay.

Angie Hamilton (18:13.504)
No, no, no, it's not. But you know, we look at that law now and think this is pretty crazy. Like that's how's that ever going to help anybody. And so with that, we realized like suicide is the ultimate expression of self harm. And that is a health issue and that we need to deal with that through our mental health acts, right? We need to intervene through the mental health act.

Chuck LaFLange (18:30.23)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (18:38.55)
Move away.

Angie Hamilton (18:40.992)
So why is substance use disorder different? Why do we, like when somebody's at the edge of a bridge now, we understand and recognize that there's a duty to intervene. Nobody stands there and talks about their bodily autonomy or the poor decisions that brought them to the bridge today or their right to jump or how they have to hit rock bottom. But families hear all these stupid arguments for our loved ones and our loved ones, you know,

They're just as ill and overdoses and overuse of substances kills just like jumping off a bridge. So, you know, we need to treat it like a health issue. And I think until we decriminalize, we won't treat it like a health issue. We're all hung up about using the word addict, which I understand.

Chuck LaFLange (19:21.59)
Sure does.

Angie Hamilton (19:36.8)
But then it's okay to call them criminals if they're using these kind of drugs as opposed to those kind of drugs. And it makes no sense, you know?

Lisa (19:45.421)
Can I ask your thoughts on something? So I don't think we've actually spoken tons, tons, tons on this show, at least not with my involvement around the decriminalization piece. Like it's come up, but it hasn't been like a huge focus, right?

Chuck LaFLange (19:57.877)
But yeah, we barely scratched the surface as a show for sure.

Lisa (20:03.821)
Yeah. And so from my perspective, absolutely. Do I think that people who are suffering an addiction should be thrown in prison? Absolutely not. One worry I have, and so maybe Angie, you can say something that will mitigate this worry for me. One of my worries is that,

For me, what I would love to see is that when people see, and again, I'm not talking about someone who smokes joints on Friday nights sitting in front of their television, like, you know, you do you. But when you see people out on the streets, slumped over, clearly hooked on fentanyl or whatever it might be, dirty, thin, unkept, just this outcast of our society.

Chuck LaFLange (20:51.702)
suffering, suffering. It's, yeah.

Lisa (20:53.837)
I want people, you know, and again, within the Mental Health Act even, like when we are trying to track someone down under, you know, certain forms of the Mental Health Act, who helps us? The police help us, you know. I don't get in my car and drive around and go find them and, you know, I would, but I don't. Seriously, sometimes I see them and I'm like, I just want to take you with me. Right? But what I would love to see is that when the police officers see these people, again, it's like this person is sick.

Angie Hamilton (21:05.472)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (21:09.59)
No, Lisa, no. You're not allowed to do that.

Angie Hamilton (21:11.872)
I believe you would.

Lisa (21:23.597)
bring them to me and let me do what I can do to help them. So one worry I have is that by decriminalization is that nothing is done. Is that the cops go pat them down, eh, you don't have a bunch of drugs on you enough for me to arrest you. So I'm just gonna leave you on the bench. And so I don't want them in jail, but what I wish is that the police took them somewhere.

And if it was, you know, to stand in front of a judge and a judge could say, you know what, you are, I'm going to give you a choice. Like you go to jail, which is not where they belong. And then, and in a perfect world that they wouldn't even be given the choice. Like I want them sent to treatment. And so that I have that worry that, that at least if they are being arrested and put in front of a judge, there's a chance they have a compassionate judge who says, look, I'm going to mandate you to treatment because you need help and you don't see it.

Whereas decriminalized, does that mean that they don't even get that opportunity and instead we're just going to let them sit on the bench until they die?

Angie Hamilton (22:30.336)
So that's a great question. And that ties into what does decriminalization done right look like, right? Because we can do it wrong or we can do it right. And to me, like there's two crucial components to it. One, and I think we need this whether we do decrim or not. We need to...

Chuck LaFLange (22:30.55)
I think... Go ahead, go ahead, Abjad.

Lisa (22:31.693)
Lisa (22:40.013)
Right.

Lisa (22:43.693)
Hmm.

Angie Hamilton (22:56.864)
make sure that we have evidence -based, compassionate treatment on demand. So when people are ready, because everybody recognizes that lots of times people really needed and aren't ready. So when they're ready, you really got to like strike while the iron's hot and get them the help that they need. It needs to be available. So we need that, again, regardless of whether we decrim or not, but I don't see how decrim can really be successful if people can't get the help that they need. And the second thing is you need a way,

to get them treatment if they need it, even if they don't want it. And that's the mandated or coerced or however you want to. I would say it as medically necessary care for them to regain their autonomy and for them to be able to look after themselves, right? So that to me is a necessary component of it. And so if you look at Albert, it's kind of interesting because they're...

Lisa (23:45.357)
Mm -hmm.

Angie Hamilton (23:53.952)
they're interested in passing a compassionate care act, which is mandated treatment. And my understanding is it's not just going to be illegal drugs. It's going to be legal drugs as well, which makes perfect sense because there are people like that on the bench and it's alcohol, not other things and often both. Right. But it's interesting. I think I said to you before, there's like a legal opinion in Ontario from a couple of lawyers that you why why compassionate care act?

Lisa (24:08.365)
Totally.

Angie Hamilton (24:22.368)
your mental health act allows you to do that today. And it is the same in many provinces. They're all different. The legislation is slightly different in each province. So you can't generalize everything. But in general, you're supposed to intervene if someone is at serious risk of harm to themselves or others due to a mental disorder, which includes addiction in most provinces. And so why aren't we doing that?

Lisa (24:29.421)
you

Angie Hamilton (24:52.64)
And that's discrimination to me. That's why we're not.

Chuck LaFLange (24:53.078)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (24:55.341)
And I think too that creating a separate act, you know, on one hand, I think if creating a separate act somehow allows us and empowers us to do what we want to do and we want to help people, then so be it. The other part of me feels like it almost promotes stigma. It says that it's not a mental illness. It's not under the Mental Health Act. And so I worry about...

Angie Hamilton (25:19.04)
Right.

Lisa (25:21.357)
that aspect of it and I don't understand, similar to what you're saying, why we simply just don't get together as a group of people who fill out these forms and make a lot of noise about the fact that people with addiction meet the existing criteria for certification. And so, you know, we certify. I know. Do you ever feel like a broken record though? Like it's just like, this is so obvious.

Angie Hamilton (25:39.264)
Yes.

Chuck LaFLange (25:46.294)
And that's it. And we've talked about that quite a bit, but...

Angie Hamilton (25:46.656)
Thank you.

It is.

Chuck LaFLange (25:50.966)
And we're going to talk about it a bunch more too. That's the reality of that particular subject, right? Because it is stigma, 100%. That's all that's doing it. If it is, in fact, a disease, and I think all three of us are of, in reality, Lisa, yours is the opinion that holds all the weight in that anyway, being who you are and what you do for a living. If it is a disease, can we just treat it like a fucking disease? Can we just do that, please? Right? Sorry for the language, but I get so frustrated.

Lisa (26:13.709)
I know.

Chuck LaFLange (26:16.726)
more and more all the time. I'm more frustrated now than I was six months ago about the whole damn thing. Can we just treat it like a disease? And what a different place, right?

Angie Hamilton (26:24.832)
But then I'll tell you what the what the issue is though that there there's a very loud group Right that will say okay and like another disease like say cancer if you know You don't want chemotherapy and it's gonna kill you you don't have to take right you they get into that Well, of course not because the the mental disorder part is affecting your thinking but they don't accept

Lisa (26:40.749)
Not the same. Not the same. Not the same.

Chuck LaFLange (26:44.854)
Yeah.

Angie Hamilton (26:49.952)
They just talk about bodily autonomy and it's your right and all this.

Lisa (26:54.349)
If you're going to compare it to something to me, then compare it to mental retardation.

Chuck LaFLange (27:00.086)
Yep, yep, or schizophrenia or, yep. Yep.

Lisa (27:01.357)
Compare it to somebody who has an intellectual disability and who even when they're 40 years old, they have a guardian who makes all their decisions for them. Because people who have cancer, now let's separate out brain cancer, okay, because that might be different. But if you have cancer in your pancreas, okay, you can think properly. You are able to weigh the risks, the benefits, the...

Angie Hamilton (27:16.672)
Yeah. Great.

Chuck LaFLange (27:24.47)
Yeah.

Lisa (27:29.581)
The pros, the cons, you're able to say, okay, these are my chances if I take treatment, these are my chances if I don't, this is the side effects I'll experience from treatment, this is what's gonna happen if I don't treat it and my illness progresses. You can think about all of that with a clearly functioning brain and an intact frontal lobe, and then absolutely, I actually have a patient this week in the hospital who I saw who was floridly psychotic and demanding mate.

Right? She wanted medical assistance in dying. Right? Now, she's paranoid, she's psychotic. And I said to her, you are not going to meet criteria for made right now. Let's get you better. And then if you have indications for made and you have a clear brain, you know what? All the power to you. It's the same thing.

Angie Hamilton (27:58.72)
I know. I know.

Angie Hamilton (28:17.628)
Yes. Yeah, it's about informed consent, your ability to provide informed consent. And, you know, this to me, there's sort of a failing to me really in the education around harm reduction, because there's this belief that somehow harm reduction means everybody has capacity to provide informed consent, and they don't. Or that everybody who's at serious risk of harm to themselves or others,

Chuck LaFLange (28:17.686)
100 % it is.

Lisa (28:19.373)
You know?

Angie Hamilton (28:46.816)
you know, is miraculously seeking treatment and they're not, or that that's okay. Like it's, you know, I don't understand. I really don't understand. It's to me, you don't empower people who lack capacity to kill themselves. You know, like that's not.

Lisa (29:05.869)
That, that's your meme for this episode. Just that right there, done. You know, I actually saw somebody, Chris, and I won't say their name, but you'll know who I'm talking about. There's somebody who's been on our show a number of times who is like pro, pro, pro harm reduction. And I'm not against harm reduction. Like some people think things like methadone are harm reduction. I'm all for methadone. I'm even in support of having clean injection sites because for me, it's the idea that there are people working at those harm reduction sites and they're the key.

Chuck LaFLange (29:08.086)
Yeah.

Lisa (29:35.725)
build the relationships, make sure these people are reminded that there is treatment available. I'm all for that. I'm not against harm reduction. I think some people take harm reduction to a point of almost enabling and keeping people in that sick state. And this person, I saw a post the other day and it was a picture of a condom box, like an empty condom box on the ground. And it was connecting this, like trying to draw parallels and saying, you know, we provide harm reduction through.

Chuck LaFLange (29:47.926)
Promotion, even, right? Yeah.

Lisa (30:04.493)
condoms so that people can have sex and not contract diseases. And I'm like, but their brains work. You know, again, like, can we stop pretending that somebody in active addiction has capacity, has a functioning brain? You know, they can sit there until they're blue in the face and say, I don't want to get better. I want to just have a clean needle, but their brain is not working properly. So what they're telling you to me only has so much weight.

Angie Hamilton (30:11.548)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (30:11.574)
Yes.

Angie Hamilton (30:28.96)
Great.

Lisa (30:34.797)
You know, it's like if my three -year -old says, I want to sit in the street and die, I'm not going to stand by and let her, you know, it's like, you know, and yeah, and the same again, parallel with people who have intellectual disabilities, right? If they decided they were going to run down deer foot in Calgary and try to get themselves hit by a semi, we wouldn't say, well, that's their choice.

Angie Hamilton (30:34.976)
I couldn't agree more.

Chuck LaFLange (30:39.606)
Yeah. No, of course not. Of course not.

Angie Hamilton (30:41.376)
Mm -hmm.

Angie Hamilton (30:59.36)
Right, thank you, yes.

Lisa (31:01.325)
Like, we would stop them.

Chuck LaFLange (31:01.366)
Yeah, yeah. 100%, right? It was last time Devin recorded with us, Lisa. He made a point that, and of course since his passing I've gone back and I've listened to all of it, so eloquently put, about harm reduction works for the people it needs to work for, and there is a subset of people who suffer an addiction that absolutely need harm reduction.

But, and, Ange, we were talking about this earlier today, it's a very small percentage of people who suffer an addiction that are living in tent cities and are having these horrible, you know, like living that life where harm reduction is the only chance to connect with these people. And, you know, it's so important, right? That's not to say they're not, they're the only people that need harm reduction. It is to say that different people have different needs and different ways are gonna work for different. So.

No, we don't want to just be giving safe supply and needles to everybody and anybody. No, we don't want to give mandated treatment to everybody and everybody, anybody. And all of the things on the spectrum in between, all the different degrees going in both ways, are going to apply to different people. And so to say mandated treatment is bad, no. Mandated treatment is necessary for some people. Harm reduction is not bad, it's necessary for some people. And all the things in between. There's so much in between, because everybody's so different.

Angie Hamilton (32:12.576)
Right.

Lisa (32:20.813)
Yeah.

Angie Hamilton (32:22.816)
Yeah, exactly. Well said. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (32:26.744)
I think, you know, with the decrim, and you've worded that so well, in the week leading up to today, of course, we've had some brief exchanges of messages, Lisa, you haven't been privy to those, but one of the things I had said was, it's not something that I've really looked at too hard, and not something that I have a really hard opinion on, as a result, and sent me some stuff that, you know, I've been reading and trying to keep myself prepared for today's episode, but.

Angie Hamilton (32:37.44)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (32:54.614)
I don't think I could pick apart anything you've said with an intelligent argument. Not a thing about it, right? So, you know, I mean, you're a lawyer, so I mean, I'm gonna sit here and try and make my point against you of all people, even if I had one, I guess, right? But, you know.

Lisa (33:00.941)
No, no.

Angie Hamilton (33:03.584)
Ha ha!

Lisa (33:07.245)
And I think I feel like it's hard for me, because again, I don't deal with the legal system, right? I certainly have a lot of patients who unfortunately are wrapped up in the legal system.

Angie Hamilton (33:08.736)
Thank you.

Lisa (33:22.829)
But the opposite of decriminalization in my mind is that there are people out there who believe that drug users are criminals, that they're criminals for using drugs. Now, again, I'm not talking about if you're somebody who, you know, is high on something and kill somebody, you did commit a crime, you know, and but if we're just talking about people who are sitting out there with drugs in their pocket, shooting up, you know, with drugs because they're sick.

Chuck LaFLange (33:32.374)
100%.

Angie Hamilton (33:33.66)
Right. Absolutely.

Lisa (33:53.549)
I'm just like, how is it that there are people who legitimately believe that they're a criminal for doing that?

Angie Hamilton (34:00.48)
because society has labeled them that way since we were born, right? And some of us were born an awful long time ago. So, you know, there's a lot of catch up to be done here, you know. And I think there is, I'm not kidding, like a generational divide here, you know, in terms of viewing use of illegal substances as criminal activity versus not, you know, but that's...

Chuck LaFLange (34:00.534)
Exactly.

Chuck LaFLange (34:09.11)
Ha ha.

Chuck LaFLange (34:16.918)
Without a doubt, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (34:25.718)
I think we would all be kind of in the in -between of that, like kind of on the cusp of that whole thing, right? In between the two camps, I think, maybe, right? Our generation would be. Sorry to interrupt you with dribble, but yeah, right? Yeah, yeah, okay.

Angie Hamilton (34:31.136)
You know...

Angie Hamilton (34:37.12)
Yeah, I would think so. Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (34:39.981)
And Angie, just to be clear for people who would be listening to this, when you talk about decriminalization, you're not talking about people committing crimes who are high or drunk and then saying, well, I shouldn't face legal consequences because I was high or drunk.

Angie Hamilton (34:53.728)
Yeah.

Angie Hamilton (34:59.648)
Exactly. So here's what I would say. Like, if you just, we have to unlearn what we have already learned and take a big step back. But the simply possessing drugs for your own personal use or using drugs yourself, how does that harm other people?

I understand that people can get high and do things. We'll get to that in a minute. But just the use itself, if it's problematic, it's primarily hurting the person who's consuming the substance. The consumption hurts the person consuming the substance. So that again to me is self -harm and that's mental health act. Like is it just a bit? Like are they, you know...

Chuck LaFLange (35:27.958)
Yep.

Lisa (35:42.029)
Okay.

Angie Hamilton (35:47.68)
Is it just like a little bit or is it like they're gonna die or is it like they're gonna go to jail or whatever? Right? Like that's how severe is it but primarily that's hurting the person using it So the thing is then but we just assume that you know If you lose control over your substance use and it's illegal drugs, you're gonna go harm everybody

And some people will and some won't. And guess what? Same with alcohol, except guess what? Even worse with alcohol. We know that alcohol is the drug that causes more harm to others than self compared to all the other drugs. You know, which... Right. Yes. Yes. Right. So if there was...

Chuck LaFLange (36:24.15)
I would dare say combined even, like alcohol would hugely affect other people more than, yeah, of course it would, like statistically, yeah.

Angie Hamilton (36:32.352)
Based on harm to others, if there was one drug that was going to be illegal, it should be alcohol, but we don't even see it because we were born and raised that alcohol is okay. We've normalized it and these other drugs aren't. So to me, we don't technically need to criminalize people using illegal drugs because either they're just harming themselves.

Chuck LaFLange (36:42.646)
Yeah.

Angie Hamilton (36:54.336)
Or if they do something that harms other people, it's already illegal. So are they trafficking? That's illegal. Are they stealing? That's illegal. Are they breaking into people's cars? That's illegal. Are they hitting people? That's illegal. Everything, you know, and that's what we have for alcohol as well. So we don't need decrim to punish people when they harm other people. This is what our mental health acts are for. Like, because I also don't want to go, well, there's no harm to others. They're just killing themselves. So that's okay.

That's not okay, because there's something wrong with how they're thinking, because they don't want to die. So when they don't want to die and they don't want to go to jail, and they're acting in a way which is either going to result with them dying or going to jail, like to me the compassionate, evidenced -based thing to do is intervene. And please don't tell me we all know it doesn't work, because we actually don't know that. There's now a big systemic review that says we don't know that. And to me that's the wrong question, whether it works or not.

Lisa (37:28.205)
Thank you.

Lisa (37:43.405)
Mm -hmm.

Angie Hamilton (37:53.088)
The right question is, what are you going to do when someone's dying from substances and they lack capacity to make treatment decisions? And or what are you going to do when somebody is at serious risk of harm to themselves or others due to untreated addiction and they don't want help? Because saying, it doesn't work means we're going to let them kill themselves and we're going to let them harm everybody else. We're going to lock them up or the parents can bury them. And we're done. And no, no, that doesn't work.

Lisa (38:18.861)
And you know, another thing that needs to change is that what currently I find happens within the Mental Health Act in, and I'll say Calgary, because I don't work in Edmonton. But if somebody comes in and they're psychotic, we certify them. And then three days later, let's say their psychosis is gone. So we're going, okay, this is not schizophrenia, because schizophrenia psychosis doesn't go away in three days.

So then we've drug screened them, we've kept them in hospital, and three days later they're better. And we say, your drug screen was positive for crystal meth, your psychosis went away in three days. So diagnostically, you have what we would call an amphetamine induced psychotic disorder. Now what ends up happening in the hospital is, yeah, we formed them when they were psychotic, but once their psychosis goes away, the...

Chuck LaFLange (39:03.926)
Yes.

Lisa (39:12.653)
perspective is that, well, they're not certifiable because they're not psychotic. We need to separate out that psychosis can be a symptom of addiction with certain drugs, but that psychosis is not the symptom that we need to hang our hat on as to whether they remain certifiable or not. Because again, if you take somebody in active addiction and you put them in an fMRI machine, you will see that their frontal lobe is shut off.

And the frontal lobe is not re -engaged three days later when the psychosis goes away. But it's like we keep putting everything on, well, when they're psychotic, then they're certifiable. And the minute the psychosis goes away, well, now they're better, they have capacity, they have autonomy, and they want to leave and go do more drugs. And it's like everything is about psychosis. And it's like the psychosis is just the tip of the iceberg. It's one symptom.

Angie Hamilton (39:46.528)
Thank you.

Chuck LaFLange (39:48.054)
Yeah.

Angie Hamilton (39:53.408)
Yeah, and then.

Lisa (40:11.693)
But the broader picture is that we have this data. We have the data that shows us that their brains are still not working. So even though they're not psychotic, they're not better and they do not have capacity.

Angie Hamilton (40:18.912)
The first.

Angie Hamilton (40:24.128)
In other words, they're still at serious risk of harm to themselves or others because what are they going to do and what do you know they're going to do as soon as they leave the hospital? You've done nothing to treat their addiction. They're going to go out and use again and shocker, you know, if it's methamphetamine, it tends to make them violent. They're going to harm other people. And we've had like so sometimes very loving family members have to take out a restraining order against their loved one because they say use meth and become violent, right?

Lisa (40:34.285)
Yep.

Angie Hamilton (40:53.6)
And then, like, it's unbelievable to me. We've had situations where, you know, they get a call from the hospital and the hospital says, well, we're letting so -and -so go. And they're like, don't do that. And then they say, well, you know, nope, there's no psychosis, out they go. And then what happens? They use drugs on the way home and then they're pounding at the door and the family's at risk again.

Chuck LaFLange (41:07.286)
Hmm.

Lisa (41:17.261)
Yep.

Angie Hamilton (41:18.496)
And then they're back in the hospital and the hospital staff's rolling, here's Joe, frequent flyer. And it's like the families are rolling their eyes at the psychiatrist going, what's wrong with you? Like, you knew this was gonna happen.

Lisa (41:23.597)
Yes. So I have to tell you, I was on call on Thursday night, and normally I have a resident and I didn't have a resident. So I was there until like 430 in the morning. And I literally had this exact case, Angie, this exact case. So I have this particular patient had been an inpatient of mine.

back about two years ago. And again, I had seen this individual in the eMERGE. They were admitted to what we call the short stay unit, where they go for three days to let their psychosis clear and then they get discharged. I had actually changed his order, taken him to general psychiatry and I worked with him and had him in hospital for about five or six weeks and then discharged him door to door to an addiction treatment center. Well, he checked himself out a day later. Okay, so where the crux of this is, is that we couldn't mandate him to stay there.

That was the problem. Now I saw him and again, that's exactly what I was told. Guess who's in E4, right? this is the way it's being spoken. Like, he's here again. He was here last week and he has been in hospital more times than I can count in the last two, two to three years addicted to crystal meth. When this guy's psychosis clears, he is the nicest guy.

Chuck LaFLange (42:30.358)
Lisa (42:51.021)
He has and his family have a restraining order because at one point while high on crystal meth, he busted every window in their home because they wouldn't let him in the house because they were scared of him. And he's, you know, he's this guy who has all the things he needs to have a great, successful, high quality of life. He's a smart guy. He's a capable guy. He cares, you know, he cares about himself independent of his, of his disease that he cannot control right now.

And that's what everyone keeps doing. They send them to short stay, you know, they discharge them three days later, substance induced psychosis, and they discharge him and then he's back a week later. And that is exactly what is happening with this guy. And he's, you know, just one of many.

Chuck LaFLange (43:37.622)
Just that language that guess who's back, right? That's a condemnation of you, of the person saying it, of the system that is saying that. That is a damnation of them, not of the person they're saying it about, right? 100%.

Angie Hamilton (43:37.76)
I know what.

Lisa (43:40.013)
Yeah, you know, guess who's back, you know, and even the people will say, you know him, right? You know him, right?

Lisa (43:53.485)
But I think where the one place that I will defend them is that they have been taught that the system does not allow us to intervene on these people in a mandated manner. So to them, it's like, we can't do anything. And so all we're going to do is he comes in, he goes out, he comes in, he goes out, he comes in, he goes out. And it's like, it needs to come from the top down because most of the nurses, I will say to them, like, this is why.

we need to be able to mandate people, some people into treatment. This is why. Because when he's there, like when I spoke to him, his psychosis was mostly resolved. He had insight. He's like, yep, you know, still having a bit of that. I know it's from the math. And I'll say to him, you know, how often are we going to do this? Like, don't you want to get better? And he's like, yeah, I want to get better. He wants to get better.

Angie Hamilton (44:27.776)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (44:28.246)
Yep.

Lisa (44:47.149)
And I actually think there's a lot of patients who in those moments, if I was to say sign right here, sign that we're gonna send you away to treatment for the next six months and you're not allowed to leave. I bet you he'd sign it.

Chuck LaFLange (44:47.254)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (44:59.51)
Yeah, yeah, right.

Angie Hamilton (44:59.776)
Yeah.

Lisa (45:01.197)
But the system is set up and nurses are trained to believe that we have no authority over these people beyond 72 hours when their psychosis is cleared. And so I sort of see it as fault of the system that people are being trained to believe that, you know, that there's nothing we can do. And it's frustrating for everybody because it's just like, and talk about cost again, and we've spoken about this, right? That like,

Angie Hamilton (45:17.504)
Yeah.

Lisa (45:27.565)
the cost of mandate, because people will say we can't afford to put mandate everyone into treatment. And it's like, do you want to know the cost of him showing up in our emergency department via the police every three days? It'd be cheaper.

Angie Hamilton (45:31.968)
Right.

Angie Hamilton (45:38.24)
Yeah, I know it's like when people say, what would this look like? And to me, it's like, well, it would look like, you know, those 60 to 80 % people who are in jail because they have untreated addiction or mental illness. It means those people are in treatment instead of in jail. That's what it looks like to me, you know? Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (45:38.678)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (45:54.541)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (45:56.182)
Yeah, yeah, without a doubt, without a doubt, right? Where does it end?

Lisa (46:00.717)
they're going to get, you know, you send them to treatment, there's a chance that we break the cycle. This again, this particular patient had just spent nine months in jail and I asked him about what kind of help he got in jail. He looked at me like I was crazy. Like he was like, what? You know?

Chuck LaFLange (46:15.254)
yeah, there's nothing. There's 12 -step and that's it, right? And it is, yeah.

Lisa (46:18.701)
You know, so if all those nights that taxpayer dollars were paying for him to eat and sleep in the prison system, if that money had gone towards having him somewhere where he was getting therapy and treatment and medications to deal with his addiction, maybe I wouldn't have seen him two days ago in the emerge.

Angie Hamilton (46:38.336)
You know what, and nobody talks about, like even the CCSA study on the costs and harms of substances, that's done without looking at the cost and harms to the family members. Like how many of them are going off to work, you know, with that present -ism, right? Meaning they're present, but they're absent. I guess their mind is somewhere else. Or how many of them...

Chuck LaFLange (46:54.326)
Hmm.

Angie Hamilton (47:03.68)
stop working or go part -time in order to care for someone who is really, you know, not able to care for themselves because they're struggling with an addiction. And when, and God forbid, if you have a loved one who dies, how many people quit working then or just again, they're at work and they're not there? And like, how many children are growing up without parents? How many parents are trying to just get to their own death, living with their child's death? Like,

You know, the costs are huge and the worst ones, like growing up without a parent who's been lost to the opioid crisis, that isn't even being measured or talked about. So we need to. We need to.

Chuck LaFLange (47:48.574)
And we're about to have, just thinking about that alone, just hold in on that for a second, we are about to have more people growing up without parents than any other time outside of war. Like that's about, that's happening right now, right? And so what is the effect of that on society? And the traumas that come from that? And here's another generation of addiction.

Angie Hamilton (48:02.528)
Yeah. Yes.

Lisa (48:03.853)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Angie Hamilton (48:06.368)
right now.

Chuck LaFLange (48:15.03)
Right? You know, that goes with self -soothing behaviors as a result of trauma of, you know, losing your parents when you're young. So, it's just horrible.

Lisa (48:15.149)
Mm -hmm.

Angie Hamilton (48:15.712)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And as I said, we're not even measuring those costs. It's like a who cares? So, you know, there's no question that treatment at the end of the day is the solution. Harm reduction is important as well. But...

Lisa (48:26.157)
Yeah.

Angie Hamilton (48:40.768)
It is also the cheapest alternative. No matter how expensive it is, it's the cheapest alternative. Like revolving door ER visits, revolving door incarceration and homelessness, these are the most expensive solutions. Not just for the person, for their family and society as well.

Lisa (48:58.765)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (49:02.381)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (49:03.446)
Yeah, yes.

Angie Hamilton (49:03.488)
And you know, I guess there's one other thing I'd like to add before we're done because it it it I don't know why it took so long for the penny to drop for me But it did drop last summer and it's this You know, there's this perception that Not everyone wants treatment and so it's important to have harm reduction to keep people safe in the meanwhile

And there's no doubt, I want to add, there's no doubt in my mind harm reduction will keep some people safe in the meanwhile. But there is no recognition that often the same people who are unable or unwilling or lack capacity to get treatment are the same people who are unable, unwilling or lack capacity to practice harm reduction. So like this, you know, so,

Lisa (49:59.789)
Mm -hmm.

Angie Hamilton (50:01.632)
We know that about 70 % of the people who died of overdose in BC had a roof over their head. They weren't homeless. We only ever talk about homeless people. They're not homeless, right? They have a roof over their head. Okay, so are they calling the National Overdose Response Service? We know they could do that and there would be a response and they haven't lost any people. No, we know that some people are very well about, they're aware of harm reduction and they're not using it.

They are using a loan in basements or in rooms and not practicing harm reduction. And to me, we have an obligation to protect them as well and ensure that they have a chance at recovery as well. And so to say harm reduction is the solution for all those folks, that's a one size fits all solution that doesn't fit all.

Chuck LaFLange (51:00.278)
No, most certainly not. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Angie Hamilton (51:01.664)
And that to me is where you need to look at the mandated treatment. Like to me, mandated treatment is the alternative to homelessness when it's being the result of untreated addiction or mental illness. It's instead of incarceration, it's instead of death, and sometimes suicidality. Because a lot of these folks,

They aren't trying to kill themselves, but there's true ambivalence. They've lost hope, and there's true ambivalence. And to me, that is a distinction without a difference to say, well, we're going to stop the person jumping off a bridge because they're trying to kill themselves. But the person who's just ambivalent, they're using drugs, and they know they could die at any moment, and they're completely ambivalent, that's OK because they're not trying. You try to sell that to the family. Try to sell that notion to the family.

Lisa (51:55.981)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (51:58.006)
Right, right. Wow. Lisa, I know, hey, I love Angie as a guest. Lisa, you have quoted or mentioned, I shouldn't say quoted, you've mentioned a study multiple times on the show in the past. Every dollar that goes into treatment saves society six to ten dollars, right?

Lisa (52:01.229)
So well said.

I know.

Angie Hamilton (52:17.728)
Yeah, yeah, there's quite a few. Yeah.

Lisa (52:19.789)
And that's been repeated, right? It's been done in Australia, it's been done in Europe, it's been done in the US. And so, yeah, like I read those back a few years ago and at the time had kind of looked at the various ones that had been done. And as Angie said, one thing they don't account for is, you know, the cost to the fact that family members and parents are missing work or they're not present or whatever that might be. And so it would be even more extreme if you added that cost in.

Chuck LaFLange (52:49.622)
Yes.

Lisa (52:49.677)
But yeah, every one of those studies, and again, none of them had been done in Asia. None of them had been done in Africa, but they were done in the UK, Australia, and the Americas. And they were all showing that it ranged sort of from every dollar spent, you were saving between six and $10. Every dollar spent on treatment, sorry, to be clear. That's the, you know, so.

Chuck LaFLange (53:10.094)
crazy. Yes.

Lisa (53:16.301)
Yeah, we've got the science, we know the brain's not working. We've got these studies that look at the money. And as a doctor, I don't give a shit about money. I should, but I don't. I care about people. I care about people being well, people being healthy. It's like when people press me to discharge somebody who's not ready to go. I'm like, no, I'm sorry, they're not ready. So, you know, but so many people and politicians are going to be driven by the dollar signs. But it's like, we have that too.

Chuck LaFLange (53:45.75)
Yeah, right, right. Yeah, yeah. It really is. It really is.

Lisa (53:45.933)
And we're still not doing what we should be doing. It's so frustrating. It's so frustrating.

Angie Hamilton (53:46.888)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what's incomprehensible to me is you can't tell me the politicians aren't personally affected by this either, right? It's not addiction hits everybody except the families of politicians. It's hitting their families too. And so that just makes it more difficult to understand. And...

Chuck LaFLange (54:07.958)
Of course it is.

Angie Hamilton (54:16.544)
how politicized this has become because it's like if you.

Chuck LaFLange (54:18.934)
I think it's because four -year election cycles, and not that I think we should be changing that. Let's make that clear. I'm not looking for a dictatorship. However, by nature, with a four -year election cycle, what we're talking about right now is a long -term investment. To see that $6 to $10 is not going to happen in four years. It's going to take a long time to come back. So nobody's going to be able to say, hey, look what I did.

Angie Hamilton (54:36.384)
Yes.

Angie Hamilton (54:41.856)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (54:41.997)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (54:47.926)
But you can say, look, I brought crime rates down, or arrest rates up, or whatever. You can say that as a politician, or say that your policies contributed to some kind of easy instant gratification stuff. So I think that might be kind of the driver there, because who's looking for long term?

Lisa (55:02.701)
Yeah. Well, I agree. And like, I read an article at a BC back in April. Actually, Devin and I had talked about it just a few weeks ago. And that was one of the things that stood out to me in this article is that they were very focused on arrest rates being down. And I just was like, do people realize that this is what they're proud of? That's not saving anybody's life.

Chuck LaFLange (55:21.59)
Yes.

Angie Hamilton (55:29.984)
So can I ask you something, was that in terms of measuring the success of decrim or something else, just in general?

Lisa (55:35.597)
safe supply. It was an article actually most focused on advocating for safe supply. But there was a section of it that was talking about what measures they were looking at. And one of them was that arrest rates were down.

Angie Hamilton (55:53.184)
Right, well, I mean, that's the whole thing. Like, really, how do you help someone? Look, a lot of people can't afford their addiction, especially the kids. And when we talk to parents, we're hearing that the average age of initiation, and we're dealing with parents whose kids have severe addiction, was like 14, right? Well, what 14 -year -old can afford their addiction? None of them. So they're all doing something that's probably illegal, right? Trafficking, theft, whatever.

from family members. So if you just give them the drugs, it's true. They don't have to do those things. And I would argue it's not good for them to do those other things. But also, this is where harm reduction to me gets a little weird because it's like, we're just going to eliminate all consequences except the death and harms of the actual substance use itself, right? And that's a pretty big except, right? That's saying,

Lisa (56:32.589)
Mm -hmm.

Angie Hamilton (56:51.392)
we're letting the addiction run wild for however long until they realize they want help. All the while, the use is affecting their decision to ask for help. So, you know.

Chuck LaFLange (57:07.606)
Yeah, right. Is it a disease of the brain or is it not? Back to that, right? Yeah, yeah. Insane people to make sane choices. Again, there's another Devon for you, right? Devonism, if you want to call it that. Listen, we've gotten to the hour mark. What a wonderful conversation, Angie. I just love having you on. Yes, yes.

Angie Hamilton (57:10.976)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (57:18.989)
Mm -hmm.

Angie Hamilton (57:26.416)
Thank you for having me on. Appreciate it.

Chuck LaFLange (57:29.078)
And of course, next weekend we have Sydney coming back again. Yes, yes, right? So yeah, yeah, I'm excited for it. I really am. Of course you can, yeah.

Angie Hamilton (57:32.384)
Great. I did not know that. That's wonderful.

Lisa (57:37.741)
Can I say one thing before we wrap up is just Angie, like I'm, you know, I know that you guys have, you know, have sort of come together and you're, and you're sponsoring the show, which makes me super excited. And the reason it excites me is that even having lived this as a family member for over 20 years, having been in medicine for 13 or 14 years,

I was not aware of everything you guys do. And I really hope that through this podcast that we are able to get that message out. You know, I actually work with somebody who has recently reached out to FAR and is actually getting support. Again, a parent with a child who's struggling. And it was really through your involvement and coming on here and talking about what you're doing.

Angie Hamilton (58:19.68)
Cool. Awesome.

Lisa (58:31.981)
that I had the information I needed to pass that on to her to get her that help. And so, you know, I really just sincerely believe that this is going to help get that message out. And hopefully it also gets people behind FAR and supporting FAR, which then can help, you know, FAR accomplish some of the goals that you guys have. So, yeah, just, I know.

Angie Hamilton (58:35.584)
Great.

Angie Hamilton (58:53.44)
That sounds wonderful. Yeah. And the most important goal is to help the families, you know? It's the coping skills, right? For something's very hard.

Chuck LaFLange (58:53.974)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. No kidding. No kidding, right?

100%. Yeah, yeah. Something I don't know if you've ever heard of before Angie, but and it's a completely it's just it's a it's a number I pulled out of the air. But for every person in addiction who's suffering an addiction, there's 10 that are affected, right? And again, that number could be way off one way or the other. I think it's probably way more than 10. But let's say it's only 10 only.

Angie Hamilton (59:14.432)
anymore.

Chuck LaFLange (59:22.358)
There's very small percentage of those resources are going to those 10 people. So I think that's why you guys are so important in what you're doing. So very, very important. And it's my belief from the onset of this podcast, from day one, was that if the best way I think I have and this platform has to help people who suffer an addiction is by helping their families. Because when you help the families, you help that person.

Angie Hamilton (59:24.704)
Yeah. Right.

Angie Hamilton (59:30.08)
Yeah, thank you.

Angie Hamilton (59:48.096)
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (59:49.142)
you know, 100%. So I'm, I've said it before, Ansh, but I am so grateful that you've come on to partner up with us. I chased you for damn near a year, right? It's kind of, you know, low key, right? I wasn't too persistent, but I am so glad that you're able to help us out and that we're able to do the same for you and that we've made a partnership. So thank you for that.

Angie Hamilton (59:59.008)
No.

Look.

Angie Hamilton (01:00:11.424)
So, Amayana, I'm grateful you had us on and that we can sponsor you. And I think that the work here that you're doing as well is going to help so many people because we need to keep the hope alive.

Chuck LaFLange (01:00:22.774)
Thank you. Okay. Yes, we do. Now we've almost all done a gratitude. We've all done a gratitude all of a sudden and we're not even at my favorite part of the show until right now. That's the daily gratitude. So let's start with you, and what you got for us for some daily gratitudes. Yeah.

Angie Hamilton (01:00:29.408)
Mm -hmm.

Angie Hamilton (01:00:37.728)
Right now, I have to say the first thing that came to mind is just I'm grateful for my husband. He's just my rock and it's been a rough month. Not personally, just in terms of policy and back slipping and all that. It's nice to have someone there that you can lean on and I'm just grateful to have someone I can lean on and be supported by.

Chuck LaFLange (01:00:42.774)
blah blah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:01:02.906)
That's awesome. How about you?

Lisa (01:01:08.949)
For friends and family. You know, like I said, it's been a hard few weeks for me.

Lisa (01:01:20.909)
And I've had a hard time feeling grateful right now. I don't think I've ever experienced a loss like this one in terms of the pain that I feel. So I'm very grateful for a lot of the friends that I've met through Devon. Devon connected me to Chris, you know. And I feel like it's a lot of the friends that I've met through Devon who have been the ones able to help me the most right now.

So I'm grateful for those people, including you, Chris.

Chuck LaFLange (01:01:56.758)
Thank you.

You made it through the whole episode, so there's that. Well, I'm grateful for a wonderful conversation. Lisa, I'm glad you're able to make it back on this weekend. Like I said, I still know some people in Calgary. I was going to send somebody your door if you didn't. So I'm glad that you pushed through. Now that I know where you live, no.

Lisa (01:02:15.393)
Yeah.

Hahaha!

Chuck LaFLange (01:02:22.038)
And of course, I'll echo my gratitude to Farr as well. What you guys are doing for families, what you're doing for the show is amazing. I just love it. I'm also grateful to every single person who continues to like, comment, share, do all the things, smash the buttons, the subscribes. You know what you got to do. It's really, really important that you do those things. It does help us to keep spreading the message. And the message is this. If you're an active addiction right now, today could be the day that you start a lifelong journey.

Angie Hamilton (01:02:31.136)
Thank you.

Chuck LaFLange (01:02:51.99)
Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member calling to detox, go to a meeting, pray, go to church. I don't care. Do whatever it is you've got to do to get that journey started because it is so much better than the alternative. If you have a loved one who's suffering an addiction right now, just taking the time to listen to our conversation. If you could just take one more minute out of your day and text that person, let them know they are loved. Use the words.

Lisa (01:03:13.389)
You are love.

Angie Hamilton (01:03:13.888)
You are in love.

Chuck LaFLange (01:03:15.83)
That little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings them back.

You almost -