251 SYDNEY GRAHAM from FAR

Chuck LaFLange (00:01.074)
Hello everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds. Welcome to another episode of the Weekend Ramble on the Ashes to Awesome podcast. I'm your host, Chuck LaFlangee, checking in from Krabi, Thailand, halfway around the world, sitting in Calgary, Alberta. This is my beautiful co -host, Dr. Lisa. How are you doing today, Lisa?

Lisa (00:14.805)
I'm good, happy to be here, happy to see your faces.

Chuck LaFLange (00:18.738)
As always, as always. Of course, we have a returning guest with us today, Sydney Graham from FAR Canada. How are you doing today, Sydney?

Sydney Graham (00:28.225)
I'm doing fantastic sitting here with you guys.

Chuck LaFLange (00:31.186)
good stuff, good stuff. Last time you were on the show, we talked a lot about what FAR has to offer in, I think, more of a general sense, right? There's a lot that FAR has to offer, so that's a packed up episode. We could probably do another episode or two about it, to be honest, right? But I think, and we talked pre -record here, why don't we get into...

Sydney Graham (00:49.729)
Yes.

Chuck LaFLange (00:56.882)
some of the commonalities, you know, the most common things that you're faced with when a parent calls in or a loved one calls in. I should say I shouldn't say parents because it's of course not necessarily a mom or a dad, right? But and kind of go from there. So what is the most actually first? Let's do a quick. Sorry for anybody that's new to the platform. We have people jumping on every week. We're going really fast right now. So far.

Sydney Graham (01:06.913)
Right. Nope, right.

Chuck LaFLange (01:20.69)
What is FAR Canada? What do you do in like a minute long explanation? And then we'll get into some of the things, right?

Sydney Graham (01:27.105)
Okay, FAR Canada is a fabulous organization run by families who all have lived experience with loved ones having mental health and addictions. We are providing free support and teaching skills to the families so that they can learn effective strategies.

Nothing is guaranteed in this world, but we can do our best and we're teaching these strategies and providing support in three different ways. We have family support groups, which are amazing because that's your community and it's a safe place to talk and really learn. We have a live support line that's open three hours every day during the week where they can talk to me and chat about anything and ask questions. And then we also have a personalized peer support where you can be matched up with a personal peer supporter who has a very similar situation.

to yours so you get an hour call each week for eight weeks to learn these great strategies to someone to talk to to confide in that understands your journey and the rest of what we do is tons of advocacy working with government agencies and education systems and trying to change things for the better.

Chuck LaFLange (02:32.082)
Of course, of course. I love that. That's a pretty holistic thing that you've got going on there. So back to where we were then, when somebody calls in for the first time, what's the most common thing for you to hear? And what would that person expect if they called in? Let's maybe start with that. If I'm a loved one and I call in, what do I expect?

When you answer the phone, what's the process and then what's the most common thing that that person would have to say?

Sydney Graham (03:02.465)
You know, process, I think they're gonna get me on the phone for the most part and what I'm really wanting to do is whatever they need. So I don't really have a process. I'm just like, I'm here for you. How can I help you? What are you dealing with that I might be able to support you with?

And this is so common. When talking about themes, it was so easy for me to come up with that because one of the most common themes that I'm hearing all the time is really a very different perspective on what addictions looks like and that mental health. And understandably, parents are very upset at their loved ones because this is coming out in behaviors.

So naturally, if we're parenting our kids and we've got healthy children, we would be punishing behaviors. We'd be trying to teach good lessons. And yet it's kind of the opposite of what we would do with someone that is that sick.

Chuck LaFLange (03:45.362)
Yes.

Sydney Graham (03:58.721)
And they don't even know it's an illness. It's they're angry and they're blaming and they're making terrible choices. And they're those kids they're hanging around with are forcing them to do these drugs and they're, you know, manipulating and, and it is, and, and you know what? It looks like that. It does look like that.

Chuck LaFLange (03:58.93)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (03:59.253)
Okay.

Chuck LaFLange (04:10.162)
I imagine that's a common one, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Sydney Graham (04:19.009)
but it's understanding what goes on behind all of that. So oftentimes when I'm starting with families, I ask their permission. I said, you know, is it okay if we go back a little bit? And I said, you don't have to answer any questions for me because I don't want to make anybody feel uncomfortable. But let's look at family history.

because that does play a big role. So we know that addiction runs through so many families. And if we know that that's true, which it is for almost everybody that I talk to, then that's playing a role and that's being given to that person. They're not asking for that, which I think is a really important point.

But the other thing that most of them don't understand is that about up to 90 % of people that are suffering with a substance use disorder, particularly youth, but I would say that's true for everybody, is that they have a concurrent mental illness and trauma. And that is a huge piece that's missing. And they don't see that or they don't...

Lisa (05:19.829)
Mm -hmm.

Sydney Graham (05:23.233)
Maybe don't really know what the mental health is. Cause once we start talking and they've said no, then they start talking about how anxious their child is. I'm like, okay, might that look like anxiety? And they're like, well, yeah, they've got anxiety. So I said, well, that's a mental health. Maybe what's happening here is they're self -medicating for that anxiety, right? Because typically your primary illness is the mental health and they are self -medicating.

Lisa (05:42.965)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (05:49.845)
And I think too, when there's, I think that with trauma as well, I think a lot of kids hide the trauma, right? Like for example, if there's a history of having been sexually abused, a lot of times the family are unaware. You know, the kids haven't disclosed it. It's a secret they're keeping. So I think above and beyond, you know, having a primary anxiety disorder or something to that effect is that,

Sydney Graham (05:54.017)
Yeah.

Sydney Graham (06:10.913)
again.

Lisa (06:17.397)
Sometimes families are not aware that there may in fact be trauma.

Sydney Graham (06:22.113)
Yeah, and that's a good point, but we can also look at sort of lower level trauma that is impacting most people. You know, it could be loss of a parent.

Lisa (06:32.181)
Mm -hmm.

Sydney Graham (06:32.417)
you know, loss of jobs, loss of, you know, friends. There's all kinds of reasons. When I'm hearing some that are a little bit more, you know, I get a lot, he's broken up with his girlfriend and that's what's causing him to go to the drugs. And the more we start talking about him, you know, if that's happening, those, you know, most healthy people would have those coping skills to deal with situations like that.

And they're like, well, that would be true. I said, do you think maybe do you see some anxiety or anything else that you might believe might make it more difficult for them to have appropriate coping skills and would go to substances for that reason? So there's all kinds of situations out there for sure. And then a lot of them just don't know about that mental health. And as we were just talking, mental health is very hereditary as well.

contrary to what a lot of the belief is out there. You know, even depression and anxiety has about 50 to 60 % hereditary. ADHD, highly hereditary, like all of them are. And that's a tough piece because most people don't know it's in their family because it's so hidden. So they don't know.

Chuck LaFLange (07:49.202)
I was just going to say, I think that's an interesting thing, because mental health was as stigmatized as anything was very recently, right? In my lifetime, most certainly, and generations previous even more so. So to say to somebody, the mental health, there's a possibility that this has been passed on when people wouldn't acknowledge it to themselves, let alone other people, a generation ago.

Most certainly not, right? It was, Pinocchio used to have a big, you know, a mental health facility up in Alberta, Pinocchio, Alberta. And when we were kids...

Lisa (08:15.253)
Big time. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (08:24.818)
you belong in Penocha or she's gone to Penocha. That was like, that was a serious insult to throw at somebody, right? And that's, you're only going back 35, 40 years, right? So like our parents would never acknowledge their own to, you know, to themselves, let alone anybody else. So to say that maybe, maybe your kid is suffering from the same thing you suffered from, but they didn't suffer from anything because they just shoved that shit deep down and most likely caused a bunch of trauma on their kids doing it. But.

Lisa (08:33.173)
Crazy.

Lisa (08:47.445)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (08:52.277)
I think part of it is that they might not want to acknowledge it to people. The other part of it is that I think when you go back in generations, people are oblivious to the fact that they have a mental disorder. So you'll see somebody who has really intense anxiety. And I've had this happen many, many times with patients. And like,

like in the room, I can almost diagnose their anxiety without them speaking to me because you know, they're sitting there and their legs going and you can just tell they're super anxious. And then I find with older generations when I've had conversations about that, they'll minimize what they're dealing with. And they'll say, well, other people have it worse or, you know, I've been this way my whole life, it's fine. And so sometimes it's like, if they know they might not want to admit it, but I also think a lot of

people when you go back generations, they have accepted that they live a certain way, they feel a certain way, and they've normalized it. So they don't even realize that you don't have to feel that way. Like, you know, that that's not how we ideally go through our life. But for them, it has been.

Chuck LaFLange (10:03.138)
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Sydney Graham (10:04.257)
Yeah, you know, and there wasn't the diagnosis in just even the past generations. Like, we knew when you're suffering with depression or anxiety, maybe, but these things like borderline or bipolar, that wasn't spoken about. And so they didn't even know that they had and you know, no, my father is very angry and he had to go to anger management.

Chuck LaFLange (10:13.074)
Yeah, most certainly not, no.

Lisa (10:22.101)
Mm -hmm.

Sydney Graham (10:31.841)
Might that look like emotional dysregulation? That, you know, that we can approach it in a different way and have some success instead of...

Lisa (10:34.997)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (10:39.989)
There's this one woman and I share this with people often because it was so, it blew my mind. I had this woman in a day hospital program who felt that she was there for this acute, her marriage had fallen apart and so she was struggling with that and that's why she was there. And then during the month she was in day hospital, right? I always go back to childhood and I wanna know about your childhood and what you were like as a kid.

And as we did that, I started to go, hmm, wait a minute. Like this woman sounds like she has had anxiety her entire life. And so I brought that up and initially she was quite guarded. And in the end, I had said to her, like, what if we tried to treat this? Like, what if we tried medication to target anxiety? And I said to her, like, cause people are very nervous about psychotropic medication. And I said to her, trying it doesn't mean you're like signing a contract to take it for life.

But what if we tried it just for a little bit? If it helps, great. If it doesn't, you stop. No big deal. So she went on the medication and I will never forget her one day saying to me, I feel like I carried the weight of the world on my shoulders for 63 years and somebody just picked it up.

Chuck LaFLange (11:53.906)
Chuck LaFLange (11:57.458)
Wow.

Lisa (11:57.781)
Do you know what I mean? So this again was a woman who had lived her whole life with severe generalized anxiety, but she'd been that way forever. So she just assumed that that's how everybody felt in life. You know? All right, so again, there's that lack of awareness, I think, in older generations, which would make it more difficult for them to recognize something in their kid that they don't have the ability to recognize even in themselves.

Sydney Graham (11:57.825)
Wow.

Sydney Graham (12:10.369)
Yeah, that's who they are. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (12:13.906)
Wow.

Chuck LaFLange (12:25.554)
Just kidding. Okay, so getting back to... We kind of went off on a bit of a tangent there, hey?

Sydney Graham (12:31.457)
But great, like that's so true. That's really good stuff to recognize for sure.

Lisa (12:33.365)
As we do.

Chuck LaFLange (12:34.578)
Yeah, right. So, okay, so pick up where you left off, Sidney. Sorry for doing that to you. Sorry not sorry, right? Absolutely, right?

Sydney Graham (12:43.265)
Yeah, no, no, this is where I love these conversations that we can keep, you know, but these things do play a huge role. And if they are aware that there is some kind of mental health or the addictions, the closer in generation to that person, the greater the likelihood.

Lisa (12:45.589)
Yeah.

Lisa (13:01.237)
Mm -hmm.

Sydney Graham (13:01.857)
So when people are really angry about their kids and we can sort of suss that piece out, what we're learning is they're not bad people that they're really patients. These are things that have happened to them and there's usually multiple things that have happened to them. And so gaining a whole new perspective on what's happening is like game changing for so many people.

Chuck LaFLange (13:24.594)
How often is that resistant? Because I feel like the way that you're explaining it is eloquent and beautiful. And there's a process to what you're doing right there, if we're going to talk about process, in getting somebody from a 10 to a three and able to actually hear.

know what you're saying? Great, like just the way you've explained it to me just now, it's just like, wow, you're really good at that. How resistant are people to acknowledging that though, like typically? Or by the time you get through your mini process, are they pretty, they're pretty typically anyway, right? You know?

Sydney Graham (14:00.065)
No, no, no, you know, some people definitely are and they start to, you can hear this light bulb going off and they're like, my God, that makes so much sense.

Lisa (14:13.493)
Mm -hmm.

Sydney Graham (14:14.113)
But other families that I talk to, it could be five or six sessions and sometimes they don't ever. And a lot of what I'm getting back from, it's no, no, no, you don't understand. We come from a very good family. We were, you know, higher income, I'm highly educated and we don't hit our kids and we don't, I did not do this. And I know you didn't do this.

Lisa (14:28.501)
Hehehe.

Chuck LaFLange (14:29.426)
Sydney Graham (14:41.121)
Like that's not what we're talking about, but that's, they're trying to justify. And I totally understand that because the system really is designed to blame somebody, but the person that's suffering, blame them. But parents are blamed all the time. And the parents are carrying a lot of shame with them, which makes it even harder to see clearly, to move forward, to help a loved one.

Chuck LaFLange (14:55.41)
Yep.

Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (15:03.09)
We often talk about that stigma that parents are left to deal with, right? Loved ones in general, whether it's the spouse or whether it's a parent, whatever, that stigma is no less real, any less so than the trauma is that the person suffering is going through, right? So it's very, very real, but it's interesting. Go ahead.

Sydney Graham (15:09.313)
Yeah.

Sydney Graham (15:18.977)
Yeah.

Sydney Graham (15:22.625)
Yeah.

Lisa (15:23.189)
And I have a question, Sydney. So if I put on like my family member hat, for me in the beginning,

Prior to knowing that there was addiction, I was annoyed by behaviors that were happening. I was frustrated. I was annoyed. I don't know if I was angry, but I was just kind of frustrated. But when I found out that there was severe addiction, I was not angry. I was terrified. And so, I mean, I'm assuming that when people are calling into FAR, right, Families for Addiction Recovery,

that these people have already taken that first step to knowing that there is addiction at play. So I guess I'm just a little bit surprised actually that one of the commonalities is that people are angry. Because like I said, I like, as soon as I knew that I was, and I was not in medicine, I was not a psychiatrist, I had no experience with addiction prior to this. Yeah, and just once I knew there was addiction,

Chuck LaFLange (16:16.534)
Thanks for watching!

Lisa (16:33.909)
I was scared. I was not angry.

Chuck LaFLange (16:39.314)
but you're a rare breed because addiction comes with that stereotype, right? And you are, you really are. And you know, if we go back and listen to your episode, episode 101 where you told that story, Lisa, you and your family are the exception to the rule, really. The way that you've handled yourself throughout that entire process, that journey that you've been on.

Sydney Graham (16:39.329)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (16:42.421)
Thanks.

Hmm.

Lisa (16:57.397)
Hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (17:05.138)
When people hear addict, they immediately, and I think, I don't want to start off everywhere, but I think often, too often for sure, it turns into bat, right? Like this person's a bad person.

Sydney Graham (17:19.361)
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I think one of the reasons that maybe you did that, I mean, a lot of people are naturally compassionate. Even those people that are really compassionate and loving, it doesn't matter because they don't understand that it's an illness for one. But addiction simply means loss of choice.

So what I hear from a lot of families is, you know, I went through tough times. I still was able to go to school. I've got my masters. Why can't just stop? Just stop and you'll be in a better place. And I said, well, that's, that's a big ask because here's what addiction means. And they're like, well, no, I don't believe that. Like they're really smart. So that can't be a thing. And I'm like, well, you know, what we know is the brain is a very powerful thing. And, and it,

Chuck LaFLange (17:50.13)
NAH

Lisa (17:52.885)
Yeah.

Lisa (18:00.453)
Yeah.

Sydney Graham (18:08.787)
And it actually has the ability to control even behaviors we don't want to do. People with addictions don't want to be in this space. They don't want to be using. So we've already established that. But it's... I know...

Lisa (18:19.957)
No.

Chuck LaFLange (18:20.018)
Yeah. I often say it's like, I never thought of that. All I got to do is stop? Like that never even occurred to me. What a wonderful idea. Right? You know? Right? You know? Yeah. Yeah. You know? And that you've just got to want it thing too. I mean, I'm not even going to go on that tangent because we'll go on for 20 minutes about that. That one pisses me right off these days. You just got to want it bad enough. Really? Right? Yeah.

Sydney Graham (18:28.961)
Yeah, thanks for that.

Sydney Graham (18:42.305)
Yeah, yeah. And it's, we can't, we can't compare. It's, it's an illness and you don't have that illness. And yes, we all go through tough times. You know, we have acute depression, anxiety when things happen. That looks very different than a chronic illness that they will be living with for the rest of their lives and learning how to manage. And, and they do know that they don't want to do it. And the learning center, of course, at the back of the brain, and this is all happening in the prefrontal cortex and the area that's

Lisa (19:03.413)
Mm -hmm.

Sydney Graham (19:12.211)
disease is decision making and executive functioning. And we're expecting people to have capacity where that's where the disease is sitting. And it doesn't matter how smart you are, how tough you got through your stuff. If you are not dealing with what they are dealing with. It's, it's not, you cannot compare. It's like comparing apples to trucks. I mean, it's not even close, right? You don't have the illness.

Chuck LaFLange (19:20.466)
Yes.

Lisa (19:20.533)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (19:30.29)
Yep.

Lisa (19:31.829)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (19:33.202)
So I'll go back to that question, because I think we kind of got away from that. And it's just plain curiosity. And maybe there isn't an answer to it. But how often is that the case? How often do people, if you had to say a percentage, how often is it that people are resistant to that idea or accepting of it by the time you've kind of gone through that conversation with them? And it's just curiosity. And I don't know that you can answer that.

Lisa (19:35.573)
Yeah.

Sydney Graham (19:59.681)
Yeah, it's a hard thing to, I certainly saw a lot more when I started this, you know, years ago when we first started doing this. People are getting to be a little bit more aware. you know, at least 25 % of the people that I'm dealing with, I would think is probably a good number. It's.

Chuck LaFLange (20:07.154)
Well, that's a good sign. That's it. OK. Yeah. Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (20:17.65)
It's... No kidding. Okay.

Lisa (20:18.421)
Yeah.

Sydney Graham (20:19.873)
You know, and that, that, you know, that's on a scale too of they either are very adamant that I am wrong and they don't want to talk to us anymore because I don't know what I'm talking about, which breaks my heart because it's, it is a hard thing to wrap your head around and, and I'd love to be able to help them. Some people we, we can't help because they're having a tough time changing that idea in their head. and, and some people takes, you know,

Lisa (20:31.605)
Hmm.

Lisa (20:44.373)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (20:44.658)
Yeah.

Sydney Graham (20:47.809)
half an hour of just chatting about it and then they start to recognize, you know, I did see these signs in my child when they're young. my God, no, you know what? My uncle has this, would that count? Well, sure that counts. mom, my brother has the same thing. And they start connecting and actually thinking about the family's history and where they've seen that, not hearing it as a diagnosis, but seeing the behaviors. No.

Lisa (20:58.805)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (21:12.533)
Mm -hmm. And I have felt that in some cases when people are really rigid against accepting, you know, whether it's the disease model or, you know, that it's not their doing and that there's a multitude of factors that probably contributed to their loved one having addiction, is that it really, I think, takes away a sense that they can fix it and control it, right?

Chuck LaFLange (21:12.754)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (21:39.093)
It's like if they can blame it on it's their hockey buddies or it's this girl that he dated or if they can blame it on something and it's sort of like a narrow, simple one item thing, I think people feel like they can fix it and control it. But when they have to start going, there's genetics and there's family history and there's mental illness and it becomes the beast that it is because it is a beast. But I think accepting that.

happens with also accepting that this is complicated and there's no easy answer. And I think that's a hard thing for people, especially loved ones, to accept.

Chuck LaFLange (22:21.97)
Yeah.

Sydney Graham (22:22.561)
Yeah, you know, I call it radical acceptance. You know, we just, this is what's going on. How do we wrap our heads around that to be in a place where we can accept that because we're not really going to be able to help them change much if we're not in this place. So, okay, here's where I'm at.

Lisa (22:26.357)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (22:27.026)
Sydney Graham (22:42.433)
Okay, now what do I do if I know that that's true? And one of the most important things we talk about are the three C's, right? You can't control it. You didn't cause it and you can't cure it. Yeah, yeah. So it's important messaging.

Lisa (22:50.645)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (22:53.842)
can't hear it, right? Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so in the interest of time, I think we could do a whole episode on the most common thing that you hear. In the interest of the most common theme, in the interest of time, let's move on to the second theme. The second most common thing, if you will, or, you know, yeah.

Lisa (22:55.381)
Exactly. Yeah.

Sydney Graham (23:08.833)
Great.

And well, Lisa's just kind of segued into that really nicely because forcing, I know, yeah, yeah, she's, we're on the same wavelength. It's, you know, it's, it's trying to force loved ones into care and trying, because so many families love their person that's suffering.

Chuck LaFLange (23:15.378)
She does that often. She does that often. Yes, she does.

Lisa (23:18.229)
Do do do do do do do do do.

Sydney Graham (23:34.529)
And mothers are naturally fixers and we love them so much. You get blinded by moving in one direction and trying to fix it all. I can take care of my child. I can fix it. I love them. This is what I'm supposed to do as a mother. I should know how to do this, but we can't.

And there's so many challenges that come with this because I say to the parents what you're talking about in these directions you want to kind of force your child into are actually really good directions to go. You're right. But I said, I hate to tell you this, it doesn't really matter. Not at this point.

Lisa (23:57.269)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (24:20.661)
Mm -hmm.

Sydney Graham (24:20.737)
Because we've got to work our way up to that so that there is acceptance on their parts. One thing for us to understand, this is what you got to go do. We got to go do it now. And you're going to talk to this person and we're going to start with these meds and I've got this thing signed up for you. And, and the people just go, yeah, no, not happening. And walk away. And you're going, well, what just happened? Why not? So.

Lisa (24:38.453)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (24:42.773)
Do you, this is more of a question about that, I think, than it is about that common thing we're talking about. Is that, so again, in my situation, I felt like my mom was just wanting to give love. My dad was the one who was going to fix it. He was the solution finder, right? Yeah, I'm just curious again, cause like, I guess, and maybe in that theme,

Chuck LaFLange (25:03.73)
I was waiting for this. I was absolutely waiting for this to come.

Sydney Graham (25:04.961)
Yeah.

I risk sick.

Lisa (25:12.245)
is can you share like, do you feel like you get mothers or fathers calling more often? And maybe just to touch on like the differences you feel like you see in the moms that call versus the dads that call.

Sydney Graham (25:18.177)
what? Easy.

Chuck LaFLange (25:18.77)
Thank you for watching.

Sydney Graham (25:26.209)
Yeah, easily moms, but there's so many wonderful dads that I talked to that are so full of love and heartache and trying to figure out how to help. Biologically, there is a difference between the way males and females think. And there are a lot of men that are fixers. Mums are kind of more that, you know, parental love and, you know, that's just who we, that's who we are.

Lisa (25:49.269)
Nurture. Yeah.

Sydney Graham (25:51.809)
I think the males come from that fixer place as well, but they're coming more from a business perspective. And most of the moms I talked to are highly educated, wonderful business people, but the default is the mom thing. Where the dads are usually a little bit coming from a different angle and trying to be more forceful. They're equally as scared and they equally love their child as much. And I think...

Lisa (26:15.317)
Mm -hmm.

Sydney Graham (26:20.897)
That fear that parents get in dealing with these situations creates a little bit of anger. I mean, it does for everybody. Fear turns into anger. We get angry. Just do this! I gotta fix you! Please!

Lisa (26:29.013)
Mm -hmm.

Mm hmm. Well, I always like to say that to me, anger is not actually an emotion. It's a it's a blanket for an emotion. So like, if I have a patient and I say, how are you feeling? They're like angry. I'm like, okay, but how are you feeling? What's driving your anger? And it's usually being scared, being sad. And I think anger, the difference is that anger feels powerful.

And usually the emotion driving the anger is very vulnerable and scary. And so I actually feel like I see dads go to a place of anger more often than moms. But I also think, and again, I'm stereotyping here, is I think men in general have a harder time being emotionally vulnerable. So they're more likely to wear the blanket of anger because it feels powerful versus I think in general women have...

Sydney Graham (27:02.817)
Yes.

Sydney Graham (27:08.065)
Yes.

Lisa (27:26.645)
And again, this is just, you know, if you go back generations again, like we're talking about, right? Men are more accustomed to being like, boys don't cry, men don't cry, you know? And so I think women are more able and comfortable to be in the emotional place. And so I think they show the sadness and the fear. And then personally, I feel like I see dads get angry more than I see moms get angry.

Sydney Graham (27:33.729)
Yeah.

Sydney Graham (27:40.257)
for sure.

Sydney Graham (27:49.345)
Yeah, for the most part, I 100 % agree with you. And I love what you just said. This is such an amazing parallel, Lisa, because you're talking about that anger is not really an emotion. What's underlying there that's driving the emotion? Addiction is not really the one issue that we need to be focusing on. What's underlying that that's driving the addiction, right? So I do talk to parents. I'm like, isn't this funny that there's so many parallels? Here's how you are.

Lisa (28:05.429)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (28:11.605)
Yes.

Chuck LaFLange (28:15.57)
us.

Lisa (28:15.605)
What was that, A?

Mm -hmm.

Sydney Graham (28:19.251)
feeling. Does it make sense maybe a little bit more now why they are doing what they are doing and how they are feeling? So great comment. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, you know one of the other reasons though you don't want to be forcing people into doing that is one we simply can't.

Lisa (28:26.813)
Yeah, I've never thought of that, but yeah, it's brilliant.

Chuck LaFLange (28:30.514)
It makes perfect sense now that you say it, right? Of course it does. Yeah, yeah.

Lisa (28:33.461)
Yeah, yeah.

Sydney Graham (28:41.601)
We're not forcing anything. We don't have any control. And the only thing we can control is our own behaviors and how we are responding to that. But some parents are able to do that. But the fear is that I talk about often is, are we setting them up for a failure? Forcing them in to do something that they are not capable of doing. And then there's another reason for them to go, see, can't do it. I'm broken. I need my drugs. I just proved it to you. And we don't want to go there.

Lisa (29:05.941)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (29:11.538)
We've talked about that. That's a very real thing. We've talked about before in the past as well, right? That sense of, shit, it didn't work, or, you know, I can't even, whatever. You've said it enough there. I don't need to expand on that.

Lisa (29:12.341)
Totally.

Sydney Graham (29:14.753)
yeah.

Lisa (29:20.533)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (29:24.501)
And I think for the families too, right? I think it's important when families are being educated for them to understand that as sad as it is, this is not like a, there's no quick fix and it's a chronic illness, right? Even if you're sober 10 years, like this is something that will never go away that you always need to be mindful of, always be one step ahead of it. And so, and I think it's because otherwise what happens is like, you know, someone goes into treatment and then they,

Let's assume they do well. I mean, sometimes they go to treatment, walk out the door 24 hours later, but let's assume they go to treatment, they get well, they come out, and then two weeks later they're using again. I mean, that's also something that causes a lot and maybe even more anger because, you know, especially if you're spending money on it or, you know, it's taken a lot of time away from people's lives and work and whatever. And then there's anger, but it's a relapsing remitting illness and it's chronic.

Sydney Graham (30:04.929)
Mm -hmm.

Sydney Graham (30:10.209)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (30:10.546)
Sydney Graham (30:21.601)
Yeah, and relapse is a very common part of kind of this journey, but I can understand the anger because here's what we do is we get them into rehab and if you haven't waited the year or two years to get into a public rehab then you're spending 30 ,000 for four weeks and then they come out and they relapse two days later. Like my god and that those are natural behaviors. Yeah and I always say to that of course you're angry.

Chuck LaFLange (30:23.858)
It's just the reality, right?

Lisa (30:41.941)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (30:42.386)
who wouldn't be angry at that, right? You're absolutely, it's understandable, right? Yeah, of course, yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (30:44.309)
Yeah.

Sydney Graham (30:49.953)
That's a tough pill to swallow to see that happen. But there's another reason for looking at partnering with them and not forcing it. Again, Lisa, you're bringing up a great as you're talking about, you know, they could go 10 years and then they can relapse. But what if abstinence isn't the path for them? And because most families are forcing them go to AA, go to CA, go to NA, go to do all the A's and it's going to fix it.

Lisa (30:50.133)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (31:10.13)
Yeah.

Sydney Graham (31:18.561)
And, but does it? And would harm reduction? I said, and I asked this question and parents get, what are you asking me this for? I'm like, have you asked them if they want to stop? What do you mean do they want to stop? Of course they have to stop, but do they? And they're like, okay, you want to explain this? I'd love to. Because if that abstinence isn't working and they can't do that,

then would you feel open to looking at harm reduction?

if that's a path that they wanted to go down because you know and here's a craft principle that we can talk about in this space is one size doesn't fit all. There is no one path to recovery. We need to find their path to recovery. So harm reduction works. I mean we all see harm reduction when people are on opiates and they're doing the methadone and suboxone programs. That is a huge harm reduction program because you can't just stop those substances we need to titrate down slowly.

because the physical effects for many of these drugs on the body is horrendous. But harm reduction works with alcohol. How about start watering down your drink? How about moving from hard liquor to a beer? How about... and we don't want to encourage other substances or more, but we need to reduce the harms. What's the most important thing in there? The number of drinks? Start reducing the drinks. Can you do that? Or with pot?

Chuck LaFLange (32:26.162)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (32:47.538)
Can you do that? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Sydney Graham (32:49.473)
Can you do that? Now there's a lot of people that can't binge drinkers or that kind of stuff and so it doesn't work for everybody, but it is a very viable path. It is a medical model opposed to the AA model and it considers also the mental health and harm reduction has the potential. All of this has the potential. We can't control anything and there's no guarantees in any of this.

Chuck LaFLange (33:02.834)
Yeah.

Sydney Graham (33:14.625)
But harm reduction has great potential because we are layering in as well the mental health side.

So if they had a diagnosis of depression, anxiety, then we maybe want to try meds. But, and therapy, but you know, talk therapy is great, but skills training. I'm a huge advocate of getting skills training in that, like the cognitive or the dialectical behavioral therapy, because we are teaching them how to self manage the way they feel.

Lisa (33:44.565)
Mm -hmm.

Sydney Graham (33:45.377)
Right? Because it's chronic illnesses and of course layering in really good nutrition because the gut and brain connection is huge and we know that good nutrition is a mood elevator and exercise, amazing mood elevator and boosting the serotonin and that can have as much positive effects sometimes as the medications can. So what other path are you choosing? But...

Lisa (33:58.101)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (34:08.021)
Mm -hmm.

Sydney Graham (34:11.297)
as they are learning these skills to manage whatever they are dealing with, then they reduce. And they're still using to support how they feel because they're still feeling pretty bad. But they learn more skills and they reduce. But what we're doing in that model is we're keeping them balanced.

Lisa (34:16.661)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (34:18.834)
Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (34:23.794)
Yeah.

Sydney Graham (34:30.081)
They're not in withdrawals. They're not craving all the time and they don't go through the physical pain of withdrawal. So they're still using but they're learning and it keeps and the more we make them feel better, hopefully the less need for those substances to do the job for them.

Chuck LaFLange (34:38.29)
Absolutely.

Lisa (34:49.749)
I feel like if I take myself back 20 something years, if somebody had told me what you're saying right now, one of the defenses or the reasons I think I would have pushed against you is that that sounds like it's going to take a really long time.

Sydney Graham (35:10.785)
Yes, and it could. I totally do. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (35:10.962)
Hahaha

Lisa (35:13.493)
Do you know what I mean? Now here we are 20 something years later and it's just like, you know, it's not a quick fix. But again, I feel like I remember very clearly how I felt back then. Like that, that shit's burned in my brain. I remember. And again, if somebody was like, you know, you know, we're not going to, maybe we're not going to target abstinence right now. Maybe we're going to target harm reduction and then we're going to do some therapy. And then I would, I would have been like, are you crazy? Like,

Sydney Graham (35:19.585)
No, no.

Sydney Graham (35:28.609)
You will never forget, I'm sure.

Sydney Graham (35:41.361)
Of course.

Chuck LaFLange (35:41.906)
Yeah

Lisa (35:43.093)
I would have been very discouraged, which, and I'm trying to think how do you mitigate that? And I think it would have been difficult to be honest. Like I think some of where I sit today came with time and just very organic learning, you know, but I can see how a family member would be resistant to that. And I think it would have,

Sydney Graham (36:05.345)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (36:05.97)
Yeah.

Sydney Graham (36:11.425)
sure.

Lisa (36:11.957)
for me at least, it would have stemmed from, I don't have that long. And not because I had stuff to do, but it was just like out of fear. I would have been like, that takes too long. Like we need to save now, you know?

Sydney Graham (36:22.113)
Of course.

Sydney Graham (36:26.177)
Yeah, yeah, but you know what Lisa knowing what you do now and if we looked at both of the those journeys and I'm going to say the potential of both of those journeys because everything really does depend on the person. We can only do so much. We've got great skills, but the rest lies with them. But if we are pushing and creating failure for them, not going to do that.

Lisa (36:30.357)
Mm -hmm.

Sydney Graham (36:50.625)
If we're using language and just the fact that we're not on the same page with them, we're kind of building a wall between them, causing more anxiety and more depression, more drugs. How long is that journey gonna last? Right?

Lisa (37:02.453)
Yeah, totally.

Totally. And that's what I mean. That's why I say like sitting where I sit today, I know better. But I think when it comes to speaking to families, I think that one of the big, and again, it depends who we're talking to. Like if someone is calling and they're distressed because their kids smoked weed last night for the first time, very different story. And that's certainly not the experience I had. Like we were not in a state of crisis because of pot on Saturday night. But I think,

Sydney Graham (37:11.873)
Yeah.

Sydney Graham (37:24.481)
Yeah.

Yes.

Lisa (37:35.861)
That, cause it's easy when you have lived in this world through either your personal experience or through being the loved one or through being a medical professional who deals a lot with people with addiction is you kind of get so accustomed to this, that it's just like, we know this is a long road. We know there's no quick fix, but for the families who are early in this,

I remember being that person and I needed there to be an absolute abstinence -based solution now. And I think like even for me, I have to remind myself that I know this is like when I see people depending on the situation and I go, like this is complicated. There's lots of layers. This is a long journey. I feel like focusing on that piece of the education is so critical.

Sydney Graham (38:29.985)
Thank you.

Lisa (38:31.285)
because they feel panicked and they feel urgency and they feel like we need to solve this problem right now. And it's, you know, we all get why they feel that way, but we know that it's not generally that simple.

Sydney Graham (38:42.721)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (38:43.154)
us.

Sydney Graham (38:49.729)
No, absolutely. And sadly, I can say, I mean, there's sort of a good answer for that in that many people that are calling us, they're rarely calling right at the very beginning of the journey. They're calling and saying, you know, we've been dealing with this for five years. We've been dealing with this for this year. And I said, okay, great. Can you tell me what have you been doing and what are these strategies that you have done? And they will go into all these and I'm like,

Lisa (39:13.621)
Hmm.

Sydney Graham (39:16.865)
What improvements have you seen? What changes has there been with it's a great direction? What changes have you seen? None or getting worse or sometimes a little bit and then they fall back into the other place. So I'm like, would you be open to another path? Because harm reduction is a medical model and there's evidence to say and we can find a lot of evidence to say, but essentially if what you've been doing hasn't been working,

Lisa (39:45.845)
Yep. Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (39:46.642)
then maybe there's something else. I think it's important to note too, harm reduction is a giant word. So when people hear it, and these days especially when they hear it, they think of crack pipes and syringes, you know what I mean? And sometimes that's what's needed. Sometimes that is the harm reduction that's needed. So when I'm sitting here listening to you now and I'm thinking about some of the arguments and some of the things that I've taken part in and that I've seen,

Sydney Graham (39:46.657)
Are you ready to maybe change a perspective and try something new?

Lisa (39:53.685)
Yes.

Sydney Graham (39:55.073)
at where it is.

Sydney Graham (40:01.025)
Yeah, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (40:15.922)
Harm reduction is a giant word. And what that means, there is a scope there that is giant, right? Definitely, yeah, yeah, so.

Lisa (40:18.133)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (40:24.597)
massive.

Sydney Graham (40:26.689)
I love that you said that because I think it's really important and I get this with a lot of providers that you know harm reduction is just opiate use and all those types of substances. I think it's really important for people to understand this can be done with any substance.

Chuck LaFLange (40:37.33)
Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (40:43.41)
Yes, yes.

Sydney Graham (40:43.521)
and if they're on board because they all want to stop. And so I think the key is making them feel better. But understanding harm reduction works well for alcohol. It works really well for pot. I mean, there's so many different ways of harm reduction for pot. We could just lessen the THC and more of the cannabinoid. We can move even a harm reduction for pot, which is great, is not smoking it. Go to an edible.

There, you're not hurting your lungs nearly as much. You know, there's so many areas that we can talk about. It doesn't need to always be that big. No, absolutely, and that's a great, reducing, switching drugs.

Chuck LaFLange (41:15.314)
sometimes pot is the harm reduction, right? So like, there's, you know, there's such a giant spectrum of harm reduction, right? Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah.

Sydney Graham (41:23.233)
Yeah, I mean if you're on fentanyl and you do pot, you know, can we work on reducing that fentanyl and use that pot to still make you feel good while we are trying to work on what other issues. So it can be switching to a lesser harmful drug.

Lisa (41:34.005)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (41:39.058)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Sydney Graham (41:39.137)
But I want that word not to be so scary and heavy. I want that to be more of a viable treatment option that does have great success. And hopefully for whoever's trying it will have that same success.

Lisa (41:54.933)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (41:55.122)
Absolutely. Absolutely. All right, let's move on to the next. The next theme. Right? Yes. Yeah.

Sydney Graham (41:58.113)
Yeah. Case. Yeah. So I think, you know.

A lot of them are really, you know, again, which is very common and it makes sense is, is they're upset with their behaviors. They're lazy. They're just lying on the couch and not doing anything and he's smart and he won't work. He just wants to laze around and not do anything. And they lie all the time. They're such manipulators. I'm like, for sure. And all of that is true, not the laziness, but they do manipulate. But again,

Lisa (42:14.805)
Mmm.

Chuck LaFLange (42:28.114)
Heheheheh.

Lisa (42:30.709)
Mm -hmm.

Sydney Graham (42:33.907)
I love this this phrase and I tell so many parents this because I think if we can understand that behaviors make sense. If we learn to shift our perspective and see the laziness, what's really happening there? Are they so riddled with anxiety in those moments they can't even leave the room and go out into public and try to function?

Lisa (43:04.117)
Mm -hmm.

Sydney Graham (43:04.257)
You know, are they lying because they're trying to protect themselves and they don't want the drugs taken away? So are you do you see? Yep, it's fine. It's fine. And that makes sense. They often lie to, which I think is, you know, for families to understand that they lie to family members because they know the pain that it causes other family members because they love them so much. They don't want to cause pain in a loved one. So they're going to lie to protect a loved one.

Lisa (43:29.013)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (43:33.301)
Mm -hmm.

Sydney Graham (43:33.729)
behaviors make sense, right? So the more that we can understand that, but it's a very common, you know, just to see that shell of a person and see the behaviors and what they're doing and no movement towards getting well. That is a hard piece to get past. And how can we relook at that to see the patient underneath?

Chuck LaFLange (43:34.898)
Of course I do.

Lisa (43:54.837)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (43:55.154)
Yeah it is. Yeah it is.

Lisa (44:02.357)
Yeah.

Sydney Graham (44:02.753)
And there's definitely good ways to do that too, because we're coming from, often with families and providers, we're coming from a place of capacity. I know what needs to be done. I've got the common sense. My mind isn't diseased. I'm not drunk or high. I'm not. And here's what we need to do. Here's the fix -it list.

Chuck LaFLange (44:13.458)
Thank you.

Chuck LaFLange (44:25.394)
Yeah.

Sydney Graham (44:25.473)
and it's going right over them because they're coming from a sick brain. They don't think the same way. So when we're trying to communicate in that way, it's missing the mark. So it's really learning, right? How do we get down in their space with them?

Lisa (44:29.397)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (44:35.189)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (44:35.922)
100 percent that is right yeah.

Sydney Graham (44:40.993)
We got to get off where we're at and get down and just spend time down there with them. And then maybe ask the questions because there's so much assuming going on that we parents know what's going on. Providers know what's going on. Did you ask them? And they're like, what? Like, did you ask them that question? No.

Lisa (44:41.077)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (44:47.477)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (44:47.794)
be.

Sydney Graham (45:04.481)
Do you think if you can create that wonderful safe space for them without any anger or judgment and say, hey, I see you really suffering and it breaks my heart and I don't understand what you go through. I don't know how to help you effectively because I'm not in that place. Can you educate me? Like, what does it feel like to be you? How does this affect you?

Lisa (45:04.533)
Yeah.

Lisa (45:20.405)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (45:27.445)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (45:31.669)
Mm -hmm.

Sydney Graham (45:32.033)
And how can I be the biggest help?

Lisa (45:35.221)
And I feel like this is a symptom of the fact that you cannot see mental illness. Right? If you're sitting next to your loved one and their leg is broken and there's, you know, a bone sticking out of their skin, you're just like, my gosh, you cannot see mental illness. And also to say that,

I have seen even very, I'll just be specific. I had a patient once in the emergency department who came into the hospital floridly manic, okay? So had bipolar disorder, was floridly manic and psychotic. Their father was a medical doctor. And I sat in the room as this medical doctor dad tried to reason with a manic,

and psychotic 20 year old. And I actually had to ask him to leave the room and separately had to say to him, you cannot reason with him. He cannot have a reasonable conversation right now. And again, this was a medical doctor, but it's that we cannot see the broken brain.

Chuck LaFLange (46:59.026)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (46:59.829)
And it's so difficult when you yourself have not experienced it to realize or to get that they don't get what your logical brain is saying.

Chuck LaFLange (47:13.938)
I understand that I can't understand is a powerful statement. It's a powerful statement to say, and I can tell you to hear it, is it's amazing when somebody says that to you, right? That says that you get it, that you get that you'll never get it, right? The things you're saying to me right now, being the only person, you don't, right? So I understand that I don't understand.

Lisa (47:24.085)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Lisa (47:30.933)
Yeah.

Sydney Graham (47:31.745)
Yeah, and I would also say be cautious. Be cautious of saying you understand. Because we don't we don't. Yeah, so I would say to parents don't tell them you understand. Yeah, yeah, it's I just want to reinforce that.

Lisa (47:39.989)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (47:41.762)
As far as my PTSD goes, I still remember the first person that said that to me, I understand that I don't understand and I never will. And this was a person who had PTSD. And she said, I'll never understand what you've gone through. You'll never understand what I've gone through. And I remember thinking like, I will marry you right now. But for me at the time, nobody had come close to saying anything like that to me. And it was just like...

Sydney Graham (47:48.385)
Yeah.

Lisa (48:07.605)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (48:08.882)
You are my people forever. Like don't ever go anywhere because it was just a giant weight off the shoulders, if you will, right? Just for somebody to say that. The things you're saying, Sydney, hey, what's going on with you? Like nobody spoke like that to me ever. Right? In all my years, nobody said, what the fuck? Like what's actually going on with you? They all knew what was going on with me. They all told me what was going on with me. Nobody ever, nobody ever asked me.

Lisa (48:16.053)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (48:38.482)
And of course, we've talked about that at least, it's a curiosity. A curious lens is a really great one to come at somebody with. And without judging and all those things. So, you know, yeah.

Sydney Graham (48:49.633)
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Lisa (48:52.661)
And another thing that I think just in keeping Sydney with what you're talking about is that if you look at the diagnostic manual in psychiatry and you look at personality disorders and you look at things, for example, like antisocial personality disorder, where again, you know, people commit crimes, they lie, they steal, they manipulate. If somebody is active in addiction, you cannot give them that label.

And I see it happen a lot, sadly, even within mental health, where people with active substance use disorder will get a diagnosis from a psychiatrist about antisocial personality traits or antisocial personality disorder. But you cannot give somebody that label if they are actively struggling with addiction. And I say that because it ties in with what you're talking about where...

Sydney Graham (49:45.505)
Yeah.

Lisa (49:50.805)
If somebody has an active addiction and they are lying and they are stealing and they're manipulating and all of these things, the reason that the diagnostic manual says you cannot give them a label such as antisocial personality as a separate diagnosis is because that is part of living in active addiction. It's the only way for you to maintain your addiction is there's almost always some level of needing to lie to people, steal, deceive, whatever it might be.

Sydney Graham (50:10.721)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (50:19.189)
And so it's not that they're bad. It's not a separate diagnosis. It's part of their addiction. And the diagnostic manual in psychiatry captures that because that is a fact. And so, yeah, I just think again, like people come and they say, well, they're doing all of these things, but it's like, it's pretty hard to maintain active addiction without doing those things actually. You know, unless you're a rich celebrity with all the money at your disposal,

Sydney Graham (50:21.377)
No.

Sydney Graham (50:43.137)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (50:48.082)
Even then, but even then because of the shame and all the things that go with it, you're still, yeah, yeah, of course, of course, right? The amount of lying I did when I was a quote successful drug dealer was no less than it was just different than when I was rock bottom living on the streets in addiction, right? You're still, the lying that has to happen, right? Just to maintain that is, it's unreal, right? I remember at one point,

Lisa (50:48.181)
There's usually, you have to, yeah, you hide it and.

Sydney Graham (50:52.065)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (51:13.269)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (51:16.37)
I had to get my brother, and I've never said, I hope mom listens to this, or I hope she doesn't, I don't know. It was Mother's Day. I had to get my brother to come pick me up because there was no way in hell I was going to show up at Mother's Day brunch in my brand new Chevy Tahoe LTZ. Like, there was just no way that was going to happen because I didn't want to, like, the questions. Right? But it's just a different level of lying. Not even a different level, just a different kind of lying, right, is all it is. So you're always lying, right? Yeah.

Lisa (51:39.317)
Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And then sometimes too, what I have found as well is that I'll have patients who, you know, are dealing with severe substance use disorders and there's a lifestyle that comes with living that way. You know, particularly if you've been kicked out of a safe home, well, you got to have somewhere to live. And so it's very easy to fall into that lifestyle. And then they end up sort of wearing

I always think of it like a mask, but it's like they have to have a facade to not get killed in this life or to not be victimized in this life.

Sydney Graham (52:14.721)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (52:14.834)
I literally just made a reel today about that very, very thing. About how one of the things I'm grateful for, and this is, we're gonna segue into our last segment, this is gratitude, but one of the things that I am very grateful for today is not having to wear that mask. Right? Because I, for a long time, I had to be somebody I wasn't. Just to maintain, just to survive, right? Now I don't have to.

Lisa (52:19.605)
Did you? How about that?

Lisa (52:38.741)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (52:42.546)
And that's one of the things that I'm most grateful for in the world is like, because I'm like, we all know it's really easy to make me cry. I'm a pretty hyper empathetic person. I don't have to be that guy anymore. Like I can just be me and you know, whatever. And it's my podcast, I can cry if I want to. It's my podcast. Okay, I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna do it. Anyway, I know it had to be. How good is low hanging fruit, right?

Lisa (52:55.253)
Bye. Yeah.

Lisa (53:01.749)
It was in my head already.

Sydney Graham (53:04.001)
Bye.

Sydney Graham (53:09.825)
Yeah, I love the way you call it a masso because people are often saying look at them. They're just faking depression and I'm like no that you know, they're faking happiness.

Chuck LaFLange (53:16.434)
fuck. Do you know how fucking hard it is to fake real depression?

and why would you do that? It's a horrible place to be, right? You've got everybody shaming you and all this shit. Like, you know what? That's the last thing you would fake, right? You know, I suppose it's anything's possible, but yeah, no, there's much easier things to fake, like being happy, right? Like many more people are faking being happy than they are to be depressed. How much I can guarantee, right? You know, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, Sidney, if you've got any outgoing remarks, we'll do that before we get into daily gratitudes, but

Lisa (53:23.829)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sydney Graham (53:32.577)
Yeah.

Lisa (53:35.125)
Totally.

Lisa (53:45.141)
Absolutely.

Sydney Graham (53:48.641)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (53:53.652)
Right daily gratitude this time. So yeah.

Sydney Graham (53:56.161)
I think a daily gratitude would be awesome. Yeah. good, my daily gratitude. I've had an interesting week and I'm grateful for so much. And I think one of that is right now is, I think this goes to caregivers and to people that are suffering.

Chuck LaFLange (53:59.314)
Yeah, yeah, well, we do like to start with you. You're the guest. So it's my time for my favorite part of the show. That's Daily Gratitudes. Let's do it. Yeah.

Lisa (53:59.413)
Mm -hmm.

Sydney Graham (54:18.497)
is have faith in yourself that you can accomplish it. As my dad always said, if it is to be, it is up to me. And I'm making a big decision as I'm saying, I'm going to leap into my fear and I'm going to do it anyway because I can handle this and I think it's the right thing to do. So having that faith in yourself, feeling strong and just commit to it, just do it. I think that's what I'm grateful for today, that lesson.

Lisa (54:44.437)
Thank you.

Chuck LaFLange (54:47.57)
That's amazing. Lisa, how about you? What you got for gratitude today?

Lisa (54:54.837)
I'm still struggling right now to feel a lot of gratitude. I'll be honest, I'm just gonna, at first I was like, I'm not gonna admit that. And I was like, no, I'm gonna admit that. Sydney, I don't know if you're aware, but we in this community, the Ashes to Awesome community lost somebody a few weeks back that was very close to all of us and was a very, very close friend of mine. And I'm very much struggling with that loss. And it has absolutely been.

put me in a place where I am struggling to feel grateful despite knowing in my brain that I have a lot to be grateful for. I have a healthy daughter, I have a lovely family, I have amazing friends, I have a fulfilling career, I have so many things to be grateful for, but definitely struggling more of late to feel incredibly grateful just with a lot of sadness and anger. But actually this week had,

one of the longest conversations with my brother that I have had probably in over a year. He called me in part because he knew I was struggling with this and we were on the phone for about two hours. Yeah, and I say it often that my brother is smarter than me, kinder than me.

Chuck LaFLange (56:10.706)
wow. Wow.

Lisa (56:21.589)
less judgmental than me, better than me. And I do believe that. I love Chris's face right now.

Chuck LaFLange (56:29.842)
They're like my favorite human. I find that hard to believe that anybody is any of those things or more than you, but go ahead. Yeah, yeah.

Sydney Graham (56:37.345)
He must be amazing then. Yeah.

Lisa (56:37.397)
He is amazing. And you know, like in, I've had a lot of very supportive conversations with friends and colleagues about this in the last few weeks that have been really helpful. But, and I don't know if it's just, you know, when someone is your sibling and you grew up together, if you just get each other or if it's just, again, a gift of his, but that conversation just felt so good.

And he actually said to me at the end of that phone call, you know, he's like, I just want to make sure that you're reaching out, that you're doing what you need to do to take care of yourself. And I, and it was, it stood out to me and I actually did not say anything to him in the phone call, cause it kind of caught me off guard that speaking to him, like, again, like, I don't know if it was this thing that he felt he wasn't skilled or capable or didn't have what I needed. And so was telling me to reach out to others.

when in fact that conversation with him was the best, most fulfilling, most helpful conversation that I've had with anybody in the week since we lost Devin. So I'm grateful for that call.

Chuck LaFLange (57:49.906)
Wow.

Wow, awesome. That's awesome. I'm genuinely happy that you got to have that conversation with him. And I know how much you needed it. And it sounds like it was just the thing. So I'm happy for that. Myself, as we were talking pre -recording, my day started out really high stress today. Really high stress. Things have worked out. Somebody came in that I was not expecting. And my whole month just got better.

Lisa (57:54.133)
Yeah.

Lisa (58:02.421)
Mm hmm. Yep. Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (58:22.226)
I won't be counting potatoes halfway through the month. It'll be the end of the month before I'm counting potatoes now. So yay for that. I'm extremely happy for that. And like I was just saying, I am so happy that I get to be the real me. Right? Like so happy. I had to wear this fucking mazik for years and now I can do this, right? Like whatever I want, because I can do that. So.

Lisa (58:22.709)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (58:47.41)
Those are a couple of gratitudes from me today. I'm also grateful for every single person who continues to like, watch, comment, share, talk about the show, do the things. Social media is taking off right now in a really great way. People are engaging with us like they never have before. Things are going really well, and I'm so appreciative of that. Guys, every time you do these things, you're getting us a little bit closer, me a little bit closer, to live my best life. My best life is to continue making HumbleLiving, my best life is to continue making HumbleLiving, spreading the message, and the message is this.

If you're an active addiction right now, today could be the day. Today could be the day that you start a lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call into detox, go to a meeting, pray, go to church, call FARC, I don't care. Do whatever it is you gotta do to get that journey started, because it is so much better than the alternative. And if you have a loved one who's suffering an addiction right now, you're just taking the time to listen to this episode. If you just take one more minute out of your day and text that person, let them know they're loved. Use the words.

Lisa (59:43.541)
our love.

Sydney Graham (59:43.553)
You are loved.

Chuck LaFLange (59:45.49)
That little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings them back. Boom. Great job.