190 - WEEKEND RAMBLE-JASON MACMILLAN

Chuck (00:02.229)
Hello everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds. Welcome to another episode of the Weekend Rumble on the Ashland Stars podcast. I'm your host Chuck LaFlandre and with me in Virtual Studio is my lovely co-host Dr. Lisa. How you doing today, Lisa?

Lisa (00:15.414)
I am, I answer this question carefully now after listening to Ryan. He says he would never accept good. But I am, I'm good. I'm good. Yep.

Jason MacMillan (00:19.811)
Hmm.

Chuck (00:20.953)
Hehehehe

Chuck (00:26.469)
Yes, yeah, good stuff, good stuff. And a special guest with us today, coming in from, well, I guess Vancouver today, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, is Jason McMillan. Now, some of you might remember Jason McMillan from the early days of the podcast, in episode 78, where he gave us one of the, excuse me.

Now some of you might remember Jason from episode 78 when he came on and gave us a really a great account of his story and his journey getting to recovery and we had some laughs in that episode, some really funny stuff. And Jason's come back on to kind of give us an update on where he's at in life, maybe talk about some other important issues in his new career. How you doing today, Jason?

Jason MacMillan (01:12.238)
Um, I'm okay, Chuck. It's funny because, you know, circle back on what Lisa was saying is like, how many times do people ask us how we're doing? They all know I'm great. And it's like, I'm actually not, you know, and like, so if I'm being honest and transparent, because we'll do that, like, I'm quite tired and I'm in some physical pain, but I'm here and I'm excited about this, you know, so.

Chuck (01:34.517)
Good stuff, good stuff. I'm glad that you're pushing through it, man. I really am. Your return to the show has been a long time coming. And we'll talk about it, and then it kind of falls off for a few months, and then we'll talk about it again, and another few months has gone by. And I know when we were talking last week, I hadn't had anything put in place firmly for this weekend, and it was like, you know what? Let's just stop talking about it, and let's just, next Saturday, you're on for the ramble, right? Otherwise, I feel like another few months

Jason MacMillan (01:34.829)
Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (02:02.121)
only.

Chuck (02:04.551)
on by in a hurry, right? So I'm really glad that the schedule works out this way and that you get to come back on. So yeah. And the best thing now, well a great thing about the Ramble now is that we don't do the recap on the week. So a great thing for you, I guess, so we don't have to find out halfway into recording that you didn't do your homework. And how awesome is that for everybody involved, right?

Jason MacMillan (02:08.468)
Yeah.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Jason MacMillan (02:27.62)
It's really good because honestly, I don't even have I wouldn't even have the time to do it. I just what yeah

Chuck (02:34.081)
And okay, I feel like that's a natural segue. What's going on in your life these days? What, I know what you're doing for work, but I have to ask it. Like I don't know for the sake of the listeners, right? So what's going on that way, right?

Jason MacMillan (02:41.055)
Yeah, yeah!

Yeah. You know, I guess since we did the episode Chuck that you and I did, episode was a 78 or 77, you just said, yeah, I switched. I switched jobs, I switched teams within Fraser Health. There's this. I would say it's a newer team. It's called the team. Like that's acronym. There's tons of acronyms that start to keep up with all of them. So it's an overdose outreach team. And they actually.

Chuck (02:56.438)
78, yeah.

Chuck (03:13.634)
Okay.

Jason MacMillan (03:13.722)
We actually use a lot of the same, you know, when you guys were talking about Norse on here, the lifeguard app, I believe those things have been talked about on previous episodes. So basically what it is, it's like a short term, supposed to be a short term service, you know, the ACK team, the sort of community treatment, is that the acronym Lisa probably knows, I should know. So basically that's like mental health in substance use. So to be referred to that team usually have to have.

Chuck (03:23.945)
Yep.

Jason MacMillan (03:42.686)
Concurrent disorders mental health disorder And substance use but it's almost like a last Resort like you usually had Already been connected with other teams Some of them just have I don't want to say just mental health and like minimize mental health But sometimes there are cases where it's they have mental health and not a substance use disorder So that was a team I was working on last time not talking that Chelsea my girlfriend she's a psycho was on that team and

So that's.

Chuck (04:13.641)
Shout out to Chelsea for letting you come record today and not giving you any grief for it, by the way. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (04:16.842)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. She gave me a little bit. No, just kidding. No, she didn't at all. Um, so, yeah, this team is like quite a bit different. I would say as to, um, when to get out to get, you know, you can self refer yourself to the team. Someone else can refer you to the, uh, team with you, obviously with your consent. And like, basically we're trying to go in there and connect with people after they've experienced an overdose drug poisoning, um, and just see like, Hey, do you guys know about

Chuck (04:42.797)
Oh, okay.

Jason MacMillan (04:43.982)
Do you know about Nors? Do you know about the toxic drug supply? You know, and again, this ties into, and I think Lisa, like what we're talking about too, and it was just like, look, it's very much, of course, it's looking at through the harm reduction lens, but it's like, to me, part of the harm reduction lens is also talking about people about all the options. You know, and not everybody who's a substance has a substance use disorder. A lot of them don't need traditional treatment, but like, you know.

In my opinion a lot of them probably do work and benefit from it or maybe Stop it before it comes to the point where progresses where it is a problem There's some consequences, you know what I mean? And what's possibly kind of the recreational? Stage I would say no. So yeah, that's

Chuck (05:30.073)
Yeah. Well, I think that speaks, Jason, to the fact that everybody is so unique and so such as their problems or their challenges that they're facing with or things that they're suffering in. Right. So I think that's wonderful.

Lisa (05:43.97)
And Jason, how do people get connected to this team? To the OOT team? Or?

Jason MacMillan (05:48.622)
So...

So actually, so I believe right now, so in Surrey Memorial Hospital, they're doing a, and I think they're doing out in Shillowack, they've actually, there's a team in there called, it's an E-ops team. So basically, it's connecting with individuals.

Do you know, like at least a check, as you guys know, a lot of people won't get the care that they need when they go to the hospital, because one, for the emergency, like that hospital, especially the emergency room is so long, they're trying to see a doctor, they don't want to go into withdrawals, right? So it's like, they have a team in there now, and from my understanding, this team will actually take them outside off property, I believe, to use substances. I have to be careful the way I'm saying this, because I don't want to get any of this wrong, but.

Chuck (06:18.421)
Ha ha ha.

Jason MacMillan (06:36.962)
So I think that's one way so that they have a, one of those workers can refer to us, family member can refer, all you have to do is really call. So we receive phone calls from family members, from friends. And then also we have a partnership with the Surrey Fire Department because they're, they experience a lot of these calls and they're the ones that go there. So we actually go out with them on Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

and we try to connect with the individuals and it's... Yeah.

Chuck (07:09.869)
So you're actually out there with them in an example like that, Jason. You're out there making that connection.

Jason MacMillan (07:15.434)
We go out there with them check out with the Surrey Fire Department. Like we also. Yeah.

Chuck (07:19.109)
I mean you personally, you personally are doing that? Like you, and you're.

That's awesome. Good for you, man. Good for you.

Jason MacMillan (07:28.371)
So it's great, but I think we can be like, anyways, it's a tough one though, because when we're talking about people who live in Chuck, we're not, Lisa, we're not talking about necessarily, I don't wanna say if you're stereotypical addict, but I'm not talking about people that are so far gone. Like I'm talking to some people that they, they may be either.

They went to a bachelor party or something like that. They barely use substances and they end up getting like a, you know, like a toxic, like drug poisoning, right? So it's a lot of them, they don't want that kind of like attention, you know, cause all of a sudden there's an overdose, like emergency vehicles over there. And you know, they have neighbors and everything like that. So it's a little bit like I would say, you know, as we know, like stigma and stuff like that. And like, I think not everybody wants to be completely open with their substance use and that's okay. It's under everybody's business. So.

Chuck (08:01.214)
Yep.

Chuck (08:10.991)
Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (08:20.446)
I believe though we're trying to like change, not change, but I know that UTM and Vancouver like they deal with the more with the unhoused population. I believe we were trying to target the house population, the hidden population they would call it, but I think that's we're doing things different now. Where we're still going to go for the people. Yeah.

Chuck (08:21.78)
Yeah.

Chuck (08:32.434)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (08:44.182)
So Jason, so everybody, so everyone that you're seeing though has had a recent overdose, is that right? Or a recent poisoning? Okay.

Jason MacMillan (08:50.97)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we're gonna start going to, I think we go to SROs also and shelters and stuff like that. Like we went to one yesterday and we just, and the girl, she had an overdose. And it's, and me, I come at it from like a little bit like in a different lens, I would think that being a person in obstinate based long-term recovery that like,

Chuck (08:57.234)
Okay. That's awesome, man. That's awesome.

Lisa (08:58.312)
Interesting.

Jason MacMillan (09:18.05)
Cause we don't, on working on like the harm reduction side, a lot of the time people don't see that aspect of it. You know, we're like, maybe they don't know enough about it, much like how I didn't know much about harm reduction. So I think if we're going to be writing people all these harm reduction, you know, options, which totally work, they save lives, they keep people alive. Like we're talking about, I think we should also let them know that look like there's a way out of this as well. You know, and that ties into what Lisa and I were talking about. Like, when are we, do we just want to keep people alive? Yes.

because they can't recover if they're dead, but I think we can do better and have those discussions more about another solution and like a way out. And, but it's complicated, it's tough though, right? So it's, yeah.

Chuck (10:02.578)
It really is, it really is. So yesterday, and you know, I have to take a minute to talk about the new project that's going on as well. We did a live feed that we're calling the Black Ash Radio.

So myself and the host of the Blacklist podcast, of course, Ash is awesome and Blacklist, you can see where Black Ash comes from. I have started doing a live feed on Friday nights. And the reason that I take this opportunity to talk about that is...

Lisa was watching that and she called me out on a bunch of chits and I guess we're still debating on some of that but one of the things that she jumped at me for, which I think was fantastic and fits in really good right now here, is when I said we had an episode about harm reduction versus abstinence. And Lisa jumped in and said it's harm reduction and abstinence.

Jason MacMillan (10:43.028)
Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (10:52.673)
Yeah.

Chuck (10:57.958)
So here I am, the guy that's supposed to be advocating and claims to be advocating for breaking all the stigmas, getting called out on my shit. And I think it was a really great thing to do, right? True story though, true story. And I think Jason, you are kind of the embodiment of that. Being an abstinence guy, you know, an abstinence recovery person, and that's been your journey and obviously served you quite well. You're sitting here today with just a few days over, a week over five years, whatever you're at right now.

Jason MacMillan (11:03.596)
Yeah.

Chuck (11:27.792)
I congratulate you, motherfuckers, on that, by the way. And with the help of an abstinence-based 12-step program, yet you are working in harm reduction, you are the embodiment of those two things coming together. And I think that is absolutely wonderful. So, yeah.

Jason MacMillan (11:29.578)
Thank you. Yeah, thank you.

Lisa (11:30.35)
Yeah.

Lisa (11:40.14)
Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (11:45.554)
Yeah, well, and I mean like it we talked about this you guys have talked about it quite a bit like there's these like opposing sides and I know like on my end even Chuck in like the previous episode like I had this narrow lens of harm reduction which doesn't make any sense because I work in harm reduction for one. A for B I have friends that use very much you know harm reduction methods with O therapy.

They're an absolute base recovery as well. Like it all, it bleeds in and from on my end was the lack of understanding, lack of information. I was like, what harm reduction actually is, you know? So as that's, I would say evolved, they can't, and again, I don't wanna say that other side because it's not, that's not, some people who work in harm reduction, they don't quite understand.

Chuck (12:23.391)
Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (12:36.386)
I have enough information about absent base recovery or 12 step recovery and they're looking at it from like a very narrow lens because sometimes people make their way into 12 step recovery, they hear the word God or something like that and then they associate it with that. It's like, oh, it's a bunch of people who chant and pray and it's like, no, that's not what that is and just like harm reduction isn't just us going and handing out clean supplies to people.

Chuck (13:01.31)
No, no, right, there's so much more. Now, let's talk about that. Let's talk about that for a second. The clean supply thing, specifically clean supply, specifically in your part of the world, in BC. It's something that came up in last week's episode.

And we had quite a passionate conversation about, right? If I'm sure you remember Lisa, and I think you watched that one as well, Jason, because you had messaged me after the episode or listened to it or whatever. What were your thoughts on that, in that diverted supply, clean supply specifically, and what seems to be going on that way? How did that resonate with you when you heard those words, those conversations happening?

Lisa (13:19.422)
Mm-hmm.

Jason MacMillan (13:28.792)
Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (13:44.782)
Are you asking me or Lisa?

Chuck (13:48.662)
I'm asking you, because Lisa's the one that sent them. So, yeah.

Jason MacMillan (13:49.23)
Okay. Yeah, yeah. That's right. Yeah.

Lisa (13:53.438)
just before you answer Jason, just to just to clarify, right. So I think what the stuff that Chuck's talking about from last week was when we had spoken about safe supply and safe supply being like what we were speaking about last week specifically, was the prescription hydromorph that was being dispensed by physicians as safe supply, you know, with the goal of assisting people with opiate use disorders.

Chuck (13:55.414)
Yeah.

Chuck (14:12.918)
Yes.

Jason MacMillan (14:21.612)
Yes.

Lisa (14:22.174)
And so we're not talking about safe injection sites. We're not talking about things like OAT. We're talking about prescription hydromorph, the safe supply of opiates.

Jason MacMillan (14:25.009)
Okay, yeah.

Jason MacMillan (14:30.591)
Okay.

Chuck (14:31.651)
Yeah, yeah, which is important to define what we are talking about because I think last week a lot of that conversation went off track because we hadn't, at the very outset, made this definition. So thank you for doing that, Lisa. Also helps the watchers, listeners, and supporters catch up to where we're at. So go ahead, Jason, if you want to use that as a bounce off point.

Jason MacMillan (14:42.946)
So.

Jason MacMillan (14:46.698)
And I, yeah, and I did, like I did, I listened to that because it's an interesting topic. And I did like, I think it was Lisa that, Lisa correct me if I'm wrong, we were talking about like, where is this, I wanna see like statistics of, was that what you guys are talking about? But actually, you know, and like, and so here's the thing, like when we talk about, all right, it's.

Chuck (15:07.234)
Yeah, yeah, yeah bro. That's the one, yeah.

Jason MacMillan (15:14.602)
It's tough. I know me personally, like being somebody with a substance use disorder, opiate use disorder, or the hell you call it. Like if I was, yeah, if I was given Hydra more from my like doctor, 100%, I'd be doing the exact same thing. You know, and like I'm not going to work. We're expecting people who a lot of them are insane to make like rational, responsible decisions with their narcotics. That's not it's not realistic. I don't think.

Chuck (15:43.65)
Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (15:44.502)
You know, and like, that's great if they do that. But again, it's like, then this goes into that whole thing. It's like, oh, but they're choosing to do that. So yeah, but they're not, they're unwell. They're not actually choosing, you know.

Chuck (15:46.859)
Yeah.

Chuck (15:58.662)
And we know that now, I think. Yeah, yeah, right, we know that. So your thoughts, adjacent, I'll be more specific in my questioning then. Are you personally okay with, are you a fan of the current safe supply model as it pertains to hydro-opium prescribed to opiate use disorder patients?

Jason MacMillan (16:01.662)
Yeah, yeah, I just I

Jason MacMillan (16:27.374)
For them to get, for it to be like regulating, controlled by a doctor and witnessed by a doctor? Are you talking about giving them like carries to...

Chuck (16:28.32)
and you know what's going on with that.

Chuck (16:38.239)
The current situation right now in Vancouver, the current situation, people being prescribed hydromorph. Right?

Lisa (16:39.746)
That's the thing, this is not witnessed.

Jason MacMillan (16:42.366)
No, no, not at all. Because like as you guys talked about now. No, it's not now is like we now there's like they're making it in the hands of people and Devin talked about this before to that. Now there's like an influx of more drugs. Let's just call it drugs. If you want to call it safe supply, cool. Yes, like I totally understand like why it's called safe supply, but there are narcotics and there's and there's consequences to taking.

Lisa (16:47.682)
That's the problem, because it's not.

Jason MacMillan (17:10.706)
Narcotics right and it's just like and it's and it's almost like we think it's like safer because it's a little pill and it comes from a doctor You know and I know for like for myself too And I know like a ton of people and if you want to get into the whole why we're in a lot of this opiate You know, uh epidemic when Oxycontin was like mass produced and I just I think it's causing more harm Yeah, and I might like

Chuck (17:20.124)
Yeah.

Chuck (17:31.12)
Right? So do I. So do I. Right. I think it's introducing a lot of young people to what could end up, and often ends up, being a full-blown addiction to fentanyl. And all of the shit that goes along with that. Right? So, you know, yeah.

Jason MacMillan (17:46.668)
Yeah.

Lisa (17:50.338)
Because it sounds too, Jason, like a lot of, you know, at the Canadian Society of Addiction Medicine Conference, which was recently in Victoria, there were two psychiatrists that work out of the Vancouver General Hospital who were talking about, I mean, one being the lack of data. They said, like, we've been doing this in British Columbia for three and a half years now. There should be data. There should be published papers. Like, where's the evidence that this is a safe thing for us to continue doing?

Chuck (17:50.806)
Thanks.

Jason MacMillan (18:17.026)
Yeah.

Lisa (18:17.578)
because with three and a half years worth of data, we should have that information. So it's kind of interesting that despite three and a half years of data from prescribing, it's not getting published, right? And it's like, why isn't it getting published? They also, yeah.

Chuck (18:33.074)
I have a question about that, Lisa, as well, if I can interject with that. It was a conversation I was having with somebody in my personal life yesterday about this very topic. And she asked, how would they come up with that data about diverted? How were they able to come up and prove those numbers or disprove those numbers? And so I'm just curious, how does that collection happen? How's that?

Lisa (18:54.262)
So I mean, there is no numbers. That's the first point, right, is that there is no numbers. But.

Chuck (18:57.182)
Yeah, yeah, and that's the point I was making, but then she said, well, how would you come up with the numbers? I was like, I really don't know, to be honest with you. So I'm curious as to how that data would be collected.

Lisa (19:04.05)
And I'm not, yeah, I mean, I think some of it would be literally talking to patients. Like, if you ask patient stuff, you'd be surprised what they'll tell you. You know? Really. I just want to.

Chuck (19:11.982)
So yeah, yeah. Yeah. Have you ever heard the shit that comes out of my mouth in an open conversation? I would not be surprised at anything you tell a doctor. So yeah.

Jason MacMillan (19:15.351)
Yeah.

Lisa (19:22.754)
Yeah, and a lot of them will tell you and like even on even on some of the footage that they showed, they were speaking to an individual with opiate use disorder who was like 30 years into his addiction struggle. And he said, I divert it, I sell it because he's like, I want fentanyl and hydromorphone does nothing for me. So yeah, I sell it. And then I buy more fentanyl. That's what I'm doing. So it's like a lot of them will actually admit what they're doing.

Jason MacMillan (19:37.322)
Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (19:46.862)
Totally. Yeah.

Chuck (19:48.938)
kidding, right?

Yeah.

Lisa (19:52.694)
You know, when you have kids coming in, asking the kids, where are you getting this stuff? You know, like they had a 16 year old girl who said, well, I wouldn't have dared touch fentanyl in my early days because I thought fentanyl equal death. But when someone outside of my school sold me a bottle of Hydramorph with someone's name on the bottle, I was like, well, that was prescribed by a doctor. So this stuff must be safe. So that's what I started to use. And then it evolved into a fentanyl addiction. So yeah, I think.

Jason MacMillan (19:59.937)
Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (20:15.285)
Yeah.

Lisa (20:19.858)
I don't know the specifics and I'm not a researcher, so I won't begin to, can't stand doing research, which is sad, but I don't like it. But yeah, I don't know specifically how they would do it, but, you know, and whether it would all be through patient questionnaires or asking patients or whatever, but, you know, they did provide examples of people who were admitting that they were diverting what they were getting. Yeah.

Chuck (20:44.074)
Okay, okay, yeah, yeah. Jason, it sounds like you've got something you've been trying to jump in with there, so yeah, give her, yeah, yeah.

Jason MacMillan (20:45.63)
I can I just.

Jason MacMillan (20:49.63)
Yeah, sorry. It's a tough one because it's like, how do we, again, how do we look at the statistics of like this being a successful model or method? And to me, I think sometimes like...

Jason MacMillan (21:12.042)
Hydromorphine is a, it's, you know, it's like, it's an opiate, it's a narcotic. Is it safer than using fentanyl? Like, absolutely, you know? But I don't necessarily think a long-term...

Chuck (21:26.059)
if it's being used as an alternative to fentanyl, right? And let's be honest, we don't think that it is, right? Yeah, yeah, right, yeah.

Jason MacMillan (21:27.962)
If, if, yes. For the most part, probably not. And when we talk about, when we talk about substance use disorders, people that have progressed to the point where you're using fentanyl, or probably, if you're normally putting a substance in your system where there's a pretty good chance that you're gonna die, you're probably past that point where you're able to make that, what we talked about too, where you're sane and able to make a sound. Do you know what I mean?

And it's not...

Chuck (22:00.508)
Yeah, it's called capacity, right? Yeah, you don't have capacity at that point, I would argue anyway, right? Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (22:05.278)
Me too. And I just don't, I just don't know if like a longterm solution is like putting more like having more narcotics on the out because they're not, they're making it in the hands of like what you guys talked about, like, like the 16 year old girl who said, Oh, like I wouldn't have done that. And like, I don't know. It's, it's a tough one because we think that like these things are safe and it's, and it's controlled and it's from like a doctor, but it's a, yeah, but like, as we all know, there's like a lot of people that have like started off with like,

Maybe they got prescribed Percocets in their doctor or something like that. And I'm definitely like a pretty like hardcore heroin addiction, you know, and maybe that didn't have to happen. And I think there needs to be more information provided as to some of the, what some of the consequences of taking these substances are, do you know? And I don't know if those conversations always take place. Like.

Chuck (22:45.584)
Yeah.

Lisa (22:57.762)
And I think, I think like, I don't think so, I don't, but it's like another thing I'm just thinking is, when you have people coming into the emerge with an opiate overdose, you can run talk screens, you can see what's in their system. If there's hydromorph in the system, go and check, were they ever prescribed hydromorph? You know, like that's hard data, right? And the other thing is when you've got somebody who's using fentanyl and as a doctor, like one of the things we talked about last week is that

Chuck (23:18.428)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lisa (23:26.706)
I do think sometimes doctors just feel like they need to do something. They're like, we'll have to do something. And I don't know what to do. So maybe I'll prescribe them hydromorph because yes, hydromorph from a doctor, from a pharmacy is safer than fentanyl you're going to go buy on the street. But the problem is, are you asking the person with the fentanyl use disorder, does the hydromorph even help you? Like, does it reduce your fentanyl use? You know, and like

Jason MacMillan (23:31.152)
Yeah.

Chuck (23:41.031)
All day. Yeah, right.

Jason MacMillan (23:50.498)
Totally.

Lisa (23:52.362)
like this guy in the video talked about at the conference. He was like, I don't even feel hydromorph. Like it does nothing for me. You know, and yeah. So I think there's ways to definitely get the data.

Jason MacMillan (23:58.027)
Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (24:05.278)
Yeah, I there's also like the argument where like I think like if it whatever if it's saved, if it's helped like save a lot. I don't I don't want to fuck this stuff is hard, you know, but I know like for myself or somebody who does have an opioid use disorder that when I when things progress to the point like where I was using heroin, I didn't want anything but heroin. You know, and like, yeah, I was on and I tried like the methadone.

Chuck (24:07.301)
Okay.

Chuck (24:32.275)
Yeah, of course.

Jason MacMillan (24:34.53)
kind of program and stuff like that. I was still using heroin on top of that, you know, same thing as someone like methadone. Like it's not, we're expecting people who are unwell to make like responsible decisions. And it's not, it's really not realistic, I don't think. And like, I, it's, I would take like, if I was like really dope sick and all I did was Percocets, yes, I would take Percocets. That's cause it's gonna get, you know.

Lisa (24:49.43)
Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (24:59.971)
I think it's been like that for a very, very long time. People with opiate use disorders want the strongest opiate, which is now fentanyl.

Chuck (25:10.262)
Yeah, of course, of course, of course, right. So, hey listen, I do also wanna talk about, you had mentioned Norris, and of course, we've agreed to give Norris some time and space on this show lately.

Lisa (25:12.497)
Yeah.

Chuck (25:27.475)
If you're part of our Canadian audience, and I know a large percentage of you are, and you'd like to help out with some of the shit that's going on out there, Norse might be a great way to do that. In my mind, Norse and similar programs are...

Right now, there's so many people trying to do some great things, I never wanna take away from all the non-profits and all the outreaches and all the things, but I think North specifically for me resonates so well because they're really saving lives in real time, right now, that is happening. So you work from home, if you're gonna volunteer from them, you work from home, you sign in when it's convenient for you, you don't even have to make a schedule. You just sign in and just say,

for an hour or two hours or until I'm not available, you don't even have to commit when you start your shift. So it's a really flexible way for you to have a massive impact on other people's lives with a very small footprint on yours. So folks, if you want to help out and you're listening to these and you really care and you've got some lived experience or you just genuinely have some empathy for other people, please give them a, you know, go to norris.ca

volunteering some of your valuable time because you know you might be just one person in the world but to somebody else you could be their whole world so please do right so I just wanted to speak to that real quick so I'm sorry to interrupt

Lisa (26:58.09)
Jason, can you talk to us or share your experience working in harm reduction in terms of, like, we kind of talked about this before we started recording, and I just think it's, I don't know, I think it's valuable, but around how, you know, to me, you wouldn't work in harm reduction if you didn't believe in it. And we've often talked about how harm reduction helps build connection, and, you know, ultimately the hope is that through connection, we can help people.

Jason MacMillan (27:19.862)
Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (27:24.582)
only.

Lisa (27:25.39)
And like you said, people who are dead can never recover. But can you talk about maybe some of your personal experience, and I don't know if you would use the term burnout or frustration, but just that, yeah, we're helping keep people alive, but just seeing people stay unwell and what that's like for you.

Jason MacMillan (27:34.966)
Hmm, yeah.

Chuck (27:37.342)
apathy, whatever.

Jason MacMillan (27:45.942)
Yeah, no, totally. Yeah, and it, I think even for people who don't work in harm reduction, if they have, you know, a loved one or maybe not even a loved one, so watch like the vicious cycle of like addiction, you know, of people with substance use disorders who aren't, who are overdosing, who are ending up in hospitals, homeless, whatever, committing crimes, like it's devastating to the whole community, you know? And, and.

Again, not everybody who's a substance has a substance use disorder, but like, yeah, a lot of them do. It is. It's frustrating. Just watch it and it's hard to watch it. And it's just like, what are we sometimes I'm just like, what are what are we doing? Like, is that the end goal? OK, yeah, we're keeping people alive, trying to keep them, you know, safe. But again, it's like, is that the only thing that we're doing is that that's not a long term solution to me. And I don't I think that

Chuck (28:30.207)
Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (28:44.606)
It's like if that's the goal and if that's like the bar that we're setting, I think that's pretty fucking low. You know, and like I don't. And again, I think that it's like it's and it's yeah. So it's like, of course, like, yeah, we kept them alive. It's like, OK, cool. But like that's they're suffering, though. And their family is suffering and like the community is suffering. So it's like, why not? Why not have these conversations more about like, hey, you know, an enemy like any any.

Chuck (28:55.204)
Well said.

Jason MacMillan (29:14.006)
Provide it like you know giving like an opportunity we kind of see those windows where I can like look at it from like a different Lens and like hey like I you know there's like a way out of this whatever that looks like you know as far as Recovery, but as we all know like in well least in BC lower mainland like we don't have many detox beds available there's weightless and in the correct criteria for people to get in some of these treatment centers and like Even the joints are both the private treatment centers you guys have talked about of them out of my

people don't have $20,000 for like a month of treatment, you know, realistically. And like Chuck, like that place that you're in, it was like, that's, it's, it's not, it's not realistic. And then it's like, okay, you need to do ABC to get it. And like, by that time, like you've just lost people. And I think like this, so sorry, Lisa, like to go back to your question, like, yeah, like it's frustrating. It comes like exhausting and it's like, I don't like when you talked about that too. Um, I, to me,

my lens, my opinion on harm reduction has like my thoughts, my feelings and it has evolved to that connection piece, you know, and it was just like if I if I start telling people that they need to you need to go to like recovery and is this like I've lost like that, you know, connection, right? It's just like kind of leaving that door open and knowing when it's okay to talk about like those things and like maybe it might not they might not shoot well I don't want to say choose treatment but they might not get clean that day but they might

Lisa (30:33.612)
Mm-hmm.

Jason MacMillan (30:40.394)
But I know friends of mine, like they remember those conversations that people had with them and mentioned, you know, talked about, okay, you know, had one other day with it with a lady at work. I just asked her, John, to say, hey, like, you know, how long have you been like doing this for? I'm just like, and I'm just, you know, that there's like a way out of this. And sometimes people don't know or they don't know the steps to take or they do. They want the help and it's not it's not available when they when they need it or the type of help that they need isn't available. And it's so yeah, it is frustrating. And it's.

Um, and if you guys, I imagine we'll talk about this. I don't know if I won like.

Lisa (31:14.435)
I think it's hard when you're working in it.

Jason MacMillan (31:16.29)
Oh, 100% it is.

Chuck (31:18.166)
Yeah, well I can't imagine, but yeah, right, so. I do, there's something else I wanna talk about, and Lisa, you were privy to this, and sorry to cut you off, Jason, but there's so many things that I wanna fit in to what's an hour, right, but, and I think you did a very great job of answering Lisa's question, by the way. I think, well, there is no right or wrong answer to that, so, but I think you did a great job of doing that.

Jason MacMillan (31:20.334)
It, it, yeah. I think.

Lisa (31:22.23)
Mm-hmm.

Jason MacMillan (31:29.022)
No, no. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Chuck (31:46.542)
I posted a meme last week and Lisa giggles as I say this. I got kicked out of a Facebook group for it, a rather large Facebook group for it. And it said, and I'm going to try to remember the direct quote, but if you have a loved one who has come back from addiction after being left on their own to hit rock bottom, they did so in spite of you, not because of you.

Chuck (32:16.786)
And then something about stop, please stop taking credit or letting their strength justify your poor choices. Now, Lisa, since that conversation you and I had, I had an opportunity to speak to Mother whose opinion I obviously respect very, very much. She's the inspiration for this show in the first place. She's been such a huge part of it in the background and in the foreground for that matter.

Lisa (32:28.277)
Hmm

Chuck (32:45.738)
Mother said to me, and mom, if you're listening to this, I do acknowledge what she said, she says, I was offended. I was like, oh. And my response to her was, mom, you're the reason that I wrote that post, right? Like, you know, like, you understand, like, you are the inspiration behind my way of thinking that way in that you made sure I knew I was loved in all the things that happened in the Ash is Awesome podcast world because of that. And.

Lisa (33:00.61)
Thanks for watching!

Chuck (33:13.666)
You know, she said, well, it's offensive to parents who put up the boundaries. So it's not meant to be. Boundaries are okay. So I'm going to make a caveat about that meme right now before we discuss that concept to say, I apologize to anyone I offended. I do believe that boundaries are very, very important, 100%. I also believe that making sure that person is loved is very, very important. I also believe that

Well, here's the thing. That meme inside a group of memorial moms and parents, people who have lost their children to addiction, received zero negative feedback. Listen to the story, one. One comment out of 30 some odd, out of 50 some odd interactions, one of those comments out of all of that stuff was a negative feedback. When you're given the perspective of having to live with the decisions of

of not maintaining connection with your loved one and losing that loved one, your opinion changes in a hurry about that way, that tough love that leaving someone to hit rock bottom. And I know I'm ranting, one more second. The reality of today is very different than the reality of 40 years ago, 90 years ago, 70 years ago, 100 years ago, when that shit started about letting somebody hit rock bottom.

Today, you're waiting for them to die. And that is the reality. And that's my opinion on it, Jason. If you want to speak to that and what you think about that concept in general, please do. Please do. Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (34:55.018)
I think Lisa wanted Lisa. Did you want to say? I think you had something to say. Let me. I let Lisa. I want to hear what Lisa says.

Chuck (35:01.354)
I know Lisa's got shit to say.

Lisa (35:03.894)
So I'm happy, okay.

So it was interesting because, you know, Chuck brought this to my attention one evening as I was trying to get Alexis fed and to bed and whatever. And so I had said to him, I need to think about it a bit and then I'll go and I'll comment on this and share my thoughts. And then by the time I got Alexis to bed, he'd been kicked out of the group and the post was gone. So I didn't get to say anything.

Chuck (35:21.319)
Cough cough

Jason MacMillan (35:35.751)
Yeah.

Chuck (35:36.562)
It was, woo, some fierce opposition. Yeah, yeah.

Lisa (35:38.994)
I think that I, maybe because, you know, I'm not somebody with lived experience myself, I'm also not a parent of somebody, I'm a sister of somebody, I was not surprised that people got defensive around that post. But I also felt, I felt that the defensiveness was because...

So part of it, I think, and I've said this before, is I feel like families feel so helpless, and they want an answer. They want somebody to tell them what to do. And saying to that person, saying to a parent, you know, well, what you need to do is, in a very concrete way, makes them feel like they have some control over a situation in which they have no control over.

Jason MacMillan (36:17.431)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (36:34.794)
So I think families want so desperately to cling on to something that is very concrete. And the concept of let them hit rock bottom is one of those things. So I think that's why people grab onto that. I also, however, think that people were reading that through a defensive lens. And that is in part why one of the things I said to check is that,

Jason MacMillan (36:45.334)
Y- Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (36:58.914)
Mmm.

Chuck (37:00.222)
I think so.

Lisa (37:02.87)
The reality is, like, I was happy to share my opinion, but reading some of the comments and seeing the distorted perception with which people were reading that, my take on that was that these are people who are not open to what I'll say or Chuck will say or other people will say. It was, again, this very concrete, harsh, like, we're going to reject this and push against this. So I was like, I don't know that there's a ton of value. You know, to me, it's like fight.

Jason MacMillan (37:21.462)
Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (37:29.684)
Mm.

Chuck (37:30.241)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (37:31.666)
you know, I choose where to put my energy. And I felt like some of the people who were really fighting against Chuck on that comment, I was like, I can tell by these comments that these are not receptive individuals. And so whether my words are going to have any value is questionable. But the reality is, you never said don't have boundaries. You never said that, you know, but that's how people... Yeah, yeah. And people were really twisting, you know, this idea that

Chuck (37:43.682)
Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (37:45.739)
Right.

Chuck (37:50.742)
No, no. I even put an edit in after the fact to make that clear.

Jason MacMillan (37:51.331)
We're here.

Lisa (38:01.522)
I think what, well, I know, I know what Chuck was trying to say is like, you can hold a boundary and still show love for somebody. Like you can say, I'm not going to give you money. You can't sleep in my house, but you can still text them every day and say, I love you. Now for people, cause one lady actually commented that the only way she could hold boundaries was to cut somebody off. And I'm like, but that's a you problem. If you cannot

Chuck (38:26.826)
And that's okay. And that's okay, but don't make that about that person. That is you protecting yourself, and you're allowed to do that. You're allowed to protect yourself, the rest of your loved ones, your fucking sanity. You're allowed to do those things. Well, who am I to tell anybody what they're allowed to do? I feel that those things are okay to do.

Lisa (38:34.642)
Exactly. Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (38:37.952)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (38:41.63)
Yeah.

Chuck (38:48.49)
But don't make it sound like you're doing it for the good of the person who is suffering an addiction. You're doing that for the good of you and the rest of the family and that's okay. It's not for the good of the person that is suffering an addiction. It's not, right, yeah, yeah.

Lisa (38:59.03)
Totally agree. And it was also brought up in one of the comments that, well, this is what I was taught to do at Al-Anon. And I will say it, that is why I left Al-Anon. I walked out of a meeting and never went back, which I'm not saying people should do, because I think that like AA, where I tell patients all the time, find the right group, I didn't do that. I went to a group and I was unhappy with the...

Chuck (39:06.594)
thought, yeah, yeah. The feeding frenzy. That, yeah, yeah.

Jason MacMillan (39:19.996)
Yeah.

Lisa (39:26.566)
the views in that group and I left, I could have gone to another meeting and probably found wonderful supports and I did not do that. But I also went to an Al-Anon meeting where my brother was sitting two floors up in detox and calling me because I think he needed connection and support and they were like, don't answer the phone, don't answer the phone. And I was like, what do you mean don't answer the phone? I was like, I'm gonna answer the damn phone. And I was like, this is not a place for me to be.

Jason MacMillan (39:27.802)
Mm. Yeah. Mm.

Chuck (39:28.482)
rhetoric.

Jason MacMillan (39:48.075)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Chuck (39:51.923)
Do you know who I am? I can just imagine that happening. Right? Yeah. Right.

Lisa (39:55.658)
But again, I think that people want an answer. So if Al-Anon tells me not to answer the phone, then I'm gonna cling on to that because it's something that I can control and I need to feel in control of something. So yeah, I don't know. That was a lot of mumbo jumbo ranting, but.

Jason MacMillan (40:15.442)
No, not that.

Chuck (40:15.83)
But no, it was fair. Now Jason, let's get your take on it now then. Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (40:20.394)
Yeah, I know that it was.

Jason MacMillan (40:25.59)
It was, it's interesting because I don't know if there's just like one, like when we hear the word like boundaries, like I think that's like a pretty like loose term and it is like a lot of like, you know, so like me in my life, like I do have, I have boundaries even with like the way that maybe it's like acceptable things that things I'll tolerate and things like I just don't have any room for, you know, and so, but that's

It's such like an individual thing. And we're talking about, you know, boundaries with, when it comes to people with a substance use disorder. And it's usually like, you know, the families and we do, we hear these like harsh things that you just got to like lock the doors and like cut them off and like, and it's, and it's almost, I liked what, I like everything that Lisa, you just said that it's like, we're telling people that this is like the solution.

Chuck (40:53.579)
Mm-hmm.

Jason MacMillan (41:16.93)
that if you do this, like things are gonna change. It's like, yeah, but that's not necessarily like the case when we're talking about like illness, you know, and it's like, we can do all these things all we want. I think it is up to the individual in my, you know, like people try to, I'm talking about my own like experience, people tried to set all these, not people, like my family, but they had to do that to like keep them, like protect themselves. And it was tough and it was really, really hard for them because they didn't know.

Chuck (41:45.474)
Fucking right, yeah.

Jason MacMillan (41:46.39)
The difference in that pretty sure they went to, you know, Alan on or maybe talk to other people that were families that like they just don't know what to do. They're so and there's so much going on there. They're they're angry. They're upset. They're they're fearful. You know, and like it. I don't know. I think in shock you talked about it. I think people do have like whatever you need to do to keep yourself like safe. A hundred percent. I don't think personally it's I wouldn't like.

I don't think it's okay to let somebody use substances in your... Actually, I don't even really want to say that. I don't want to weigh in on that stuff too much, because somebody might be doing that and they might take offense to it, right? So that's just like me. Like, I wouldn't be okay with that, but it's also a tricky one. When we talk about... I don't know. This stuff is really...

Yeah, I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I

Chuck (42:43.64)
We got you on the uncomfortable chair, do we? And that's okay.

Lisa (42:44.318)
This is the thing though, right, Jason, is like you've lived through this. You have spent five years in recovery. You work with people in active addiction and you're sitting there going, oh, like, I don't know. And that's just it is that it's so gray and it's so confusing. And that's why people love rock bottom because rock bottom is concrete. It's like, I want an answer. I need to grab onto something that's not moving. I need to feel anchored. And so if

Jason MacMillan (42:54.734)
It's, yeah. It is, it really is.

Jason MacMillan (43:07.646)
the thing is yeah and totally and the thing is that when we hear rock bottom like I and I heard this like years ago and it's like for me rock bottom is when I stopped digging like there was no I already hit rock the rock but do you know what I mean like what is rock bottom right like it it's

Lisa (43:22.626)
Exactly.

Chuck (43:24.386)
Yeah.

Lisa (43:28.094)
And Chuck's comment is that rock bottom is death nowadays. Like, are you gonna let them die? Because for some people, rock bottom is death. And so, like, are you okay with that? And I also love that concept.

Chuck (43:31.83)
Right? That's the reality has changed, right? Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (43:37.91)
Yeah, and I think, yeah.

Chuck (43:43.694)
Go ahead, Lisa, what were you saying? Yeah.

Lisa (43:44.734)
I love the concept that for everybody, it's to me the deciding factor is, can you sleep at night with your decision? You know, like if your kid dies because you didn't answer a phone call, are you okay with that? If you're okay with that, then you do you. Do you know what I mean? Like you have to be able to live with it.

Chuck (43:57.335)
Right?

Yes.

Chuck (44:08.318)
Yeah. Okay, that might be a little, that wording. Yee. If your kid dies after you didn't answer a phone call, but not because, right? Because because is hard. That's a hard language, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lisa (44:19.174)
Yes, fair, totally. Yes, that points blame. I agree. Yes, I take that back. But it's just, you need to recognize that if you're going to say, I'm going to let my kid hit rock bottom, make sure you're aware that rock bottom could be death or death could come before rock bottom or however you want to spin that in your own views. Are you okay with that?

Jason MacMillan (44:21.854)
Yeah.

Lisa (44:42.334)
Are you okay not answering phone calls? Are you okay? Like for me, for example, boundaries, and again, it's different because it's my brother, right? So my brother doesn't necessarily think he should come and live in my house. But throughout my brother's active addiction, I wouldn't give him money and he knew I wouldn't. Now I did pay for hotels. There were times when he was in Edmonton and it was minus 30 and he had nowhere to sleep and I would pay for a hotel room.

Jason MacMillan (44:45.644)
Yeah.

Lisa (45:12.286)
I was very careful that I did not give a hotel my credit card number so that if something happened in that hotel room that I like that, you know, they were going to come after my credit to cover the cost of damages to a room. Like I had to do things to protect myself. You know, I would go in when I was with my brother, I would buy him groceries, I would, you know, take him out to eat. I would not give him money. And I was, you know, he knew that and he didn't ask me for money.

Chuck (45:27.278)
Thanks for watching!

Lisa (45:41.81)
So I think that there's a difference though. Like you can hold boundaries and still tell them you care about them and still tell them that look, if you want to change the way you're living your life, I'm here to help you, just call me. You can say that and hold boundaries.

Jason MacMillan (45:56.074)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think when we talk about like rock bottom, I think sometimes that might get taken out of context and say, well, what exactly does that mean to them? Like, do they even know what there's, when they say, oh, we have to let them hit rock bottom, do they like, what does that mean to them? What is that rock bottom? And it's, and I think sometimes it's, maybe it can be

Chuck (46:02.606)
percent.

Jason MacMillan (46:28.615)
it can be said, maybe we can say like they need to get to that point where they're ready to hopefully make that decision. But again, and this goes back to expecting people to make that decision. I don't know, I've seen it before sometimes. I've seen it when you know, and it's usually like, from what I've seen, it's usually whenever there's an intervention.

And when I say intervention, I mean like, um, there might be an overdose. It's usually like an instance where there was like enough for them to have a moment of clarity around to look at like their, their life. And I don't know if you guys understand like what I'm saying, like when you're so far in it, it's like, we're not, we're not choose it like a sponsor of mine. I'm not going to say his name on here, but he thanked the cops.

Chuck (47:16.752)
I do, I do, yeah.

Lisa (47:17.43)
Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (47:24.354)
who arrested him. To this day, he talks about it in his story. He said, I thank that police officer for arresting me. Cause that was the, his, I don't wanna say rock bottom, but that was what he needed for him to be separated from the chaos and the substances for long enough so that he could change.

Chuck (47:47.414)
pull it together, right? Lisa, you and I have a story very recently, right? That kind of speaks to that, that very thing, right? A friend of mine, Jason, I don't know if you're aware of this through the show or whatever, a friend of mine's ex-wife, technically still wife, but realistically ex-wife, in the throws of horrible fentanyl addiction, you know, we take her to the emergency room and...

We know what she has to say in order to be admitted. And she sabotaged it the entire time in the most horrible, like seriously, girl? And it was so frustrating, because it's like, listen, we're at the emergency room, we can get you care, but you have to stop telling people you have somewhere to go because you don't have anywhere to go, right?

Jason MacMillan (48:17.068)
Mm-hmm.

Jason MacMillan (48:28.492)
Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (48:33.194)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chuck (48:35.794)
And what should have been a couple hours turned into like 13 or, I don't even know how fucking long we were there for, it was forever though, right? It was all damn day trying to get her into care. And then even from then, it was one day at a time that we were keeping her in care, that we were advocating for her to stay there. To the point where her ex-husband, husband, whatever, my good friend,

Lisa (48:53.154)
advocating.

Jason MacMillan (48:55.948)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (49:01.526)
had to get on the phone with the nursing unit and say, here's the deal, I will sue you into fucking oblivion if she dies after you discharge her. Which of course in Canada is kind of an empty threat, but who wants the trouble? He said, my buddy's got a podcast, he sat in the emergency room with me and you're gonna be the star of that podcast if she dies. He said these things, and me telling him to say so, and one day at a time.

Five days into this, Jason, I shit you not, I call her, and I cry. The person on the other end of the phone is completely different than the person I saw when we dropped her off in emergency, when we took her to emergency, we didn't drop her off. She was lucid.

Jason MacMillan (49:34.733)
Mm.

Jason MacMillan (49:44.028)
Yeah. End.

Chuck (49:47.422)
She understood the dire nature of her situation. She wanted to all of a sudden take steps that were gonna get her to a place where she could get door to door treatment. She was all of a sudden, she was hyper fucking aware of the severity of what was going on in her life. Whether she was in denial about that before, or like Lisa pointed out, maybe.

Jason MacMillan (49:50.444)
Yeah.

Chuck (50:07.622)
she felt she didn't deserve that help, right? Which is a skewed reality that, you know, self, all the things that come with the guilt and shame that can be attached to some of the things that we do in addiction, right? But I don't even care, because that person right now, I believe is in treatment.

Jason MacMillan (50:20.415)
Yeah. Well.

Chuck (50:28.562)
or days away from it, like right there. But she's sober, she's fucking sober today, I can tell you that, last I heard anyway, which was in the last week, and doing so much better. Because we pushed her there, right? And gave her a moment of clarity to make those choices. Right, so, yeah, yeah.

Jason MacMillan (50:35.222)
Yeah, and I like.

Jason MacMillan (50:40.054)
Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (50:43.49)
Totally. And that's.

Lisa (50:44.766)
And imagine if she didn't have family, Chuck, because I see a lot of people come through the emerge who don't have anybody. And...

Chuck (50:48.086)
Oh, oh, right? What it takes just to go and ask for the help, right? Like, what does that take, you know? I'm gonna speak to something else right now too.

Jason MacMillan (50:50.655)
Yeah.

Chuck (51:03.618)
Jason, I'm sorry, but again, so many topics to discuss. Actually, you know what? If there's something that you want to throw in on that, I think you have a lot to say and you have a right to say anything that comes to your mind. So I'm gonna put my next topic on hold for a minute and listen to what you were trying to say there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (51:15.914)
Oh, I don't. Yeah, thank you. I don't want to say anything that comes to my mind, because you probably have to edit that over here. But no, just I just I like it. Yeah, no, you don't. That's right. You don't.

Chuck (51:25.672)
I don't edit much.

Jason MacMillan (51:31.882)
And that's like an example of, you know, like you said, you know, your friend there, like, like Lisa was saying, you advocated for her and that's what people need a lot of the time. They need people.

Jason MacMillan (51:45.29)
that we need that, you know, when we do more of that, I think. And when we hear and we haven't really talked about this, I don't think you have maybe off air we did. But like I know there is like on previous episodes, there's been those talks about like forced treatment. And when we hear sometimes they think when we hear the word forced, it sounds like super harsh. Like, oh, it's taking people's rights away. And it's like, yeah, but like we're doing that, though, for like.

the greater good that because they're because what they're doing right now is that they're dying and they're probably going to like realistically you know so it's not it's but if we frame it and like me I don't look at it like forced treatment anybody that has opportunity to go to treatment that's to me that's like a like an opportunity a second chance at life so it sounds a little bit different when we call it that right and I think sometimes there does need to be an intervention where somebody steps in and it's like it makes

It just it ties in all this stuff that you guys have like talked about right? This is like yeah, but they need to choose when they're ready And it's like yeah, but if you know anything about like addiction, they're not choosing there It's not you know, so it's why are we watching people? Yeah, and why are we just watching people die and suffered? Why are we okay with it? And it's like yeah, like let's anyways, um

Chuck (52:55.006)
Yeah, most certainly not, right? Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (53:08.414)
I think it's okay to take people's like-

Chuck (53:10.026)
Yeah, you said it well, Jason.

Lisa (53:16.938)
I think I told you guys recently, I went to a, I was going to a, it's so funny because it's like this natural health grocery store. And it's, to me, one of the worst areas of Calgary that I go to. It's the Chinook, it's near the Chinook train station, and it's rough. It's rough. And I was going there the other day, I go there probably once a week, and I was going there and don't know why this particular

Chuck (53:17.152)
So, go ahead.

Chuck (53:36.027)
Oh yeah, yeah.

Lisa (53:45.814)
young guy like stuck in my mind because I mean, I see them every week, right? I see people who are homeless, they're clearly addicted to substances, struggling with mental health in what order, I don't know. But this one young guy, he was probably in his mid 20s, maybe late 20s. And he was sitting on a bench next to another guy. The one guy was trying to inject the guy who for some reason has

imprinted himself on my brain was intoxicated on what looked like opiates to me slumped over. And I was just looking at this kid and I'm like, someone want to tell me that he has capacity? That's not capacity. You know, and like I just literally wanted to go take him with me. Like just I just wanted to go take him. Yeah, take him home. You know?

Jason MacMillan (54:27.718)
It right. Yeah. No. Yeah.

Chuck (54:32.21)
Right? Yeah. This is not. Yeah.

Right. You can't do that, Lisa. Don't. It's no strays. Yes, yes. Right. And as but I hear you, I know. Yeah.

Lisa (54:43.914)
But I just was looking at this kid and I like, and he did, he looked like a kid to me. And I was like, no one chooses that. No one chooses that. I don't give a shit what you've lived through in your life. You don't choose that. You know, and that is not capacity. I don't think he knew that he was on planet earth. You know, I mean, he didn't know what world he was in. And I'm like, that is.

Chuck (54:51.786)
Nope, nope, nobody ever did that, nope. Nope, nope, it's micro choices I call it, right? I call that micro choices that gets you there, yeah, yeah. Nope.

Jason MacMillan (55:00.914)
No, totally. Yeah.

Chuck (55:06.986)
And when he wakes up, when he wakes up and he knows what world's he in, he's gonna be so fucking dopesick that the only thing that matters is not being dopesick. Everything else goes by the wayside. And that's just the reality of that, right? So how can you ask somebody in that position to make a sane choice for themself, right? You know.

Jason MacMillan (55:12.024)
Yeah.

Lisa (55:18.858)
Yeah. And I just, you know, the people who drive by, you know, we just drive by, you know, we look, we drive by, we carry on with our life. And I'm like, it's not okay. Like we, as society should not be driving by this and then going home and making dinner. Like I'm like, this is not okay.

Jason MacMillan (55:18.998)
Yeah, and.

Jason MacMillan (55:27.17)
Yeah.

Chuck (55:33.015)
No.

Jason MacMillan (55:41.463)
Yeah.

Chuck (55:41.934)
No, no, you're right. Hey listen, there's something else I want to talk about here. Lisa, you'd be familiar with this. But just before I left for Thailand, we know Lisa's familiar with this because she went crazy Lisa on me for a day there. I went back to Regina and I ended up spending some time with some people that I used to hang out with. Risky behavior for somebody with only a year clean. But I spoke about Jess.

Lisa (55:43.724)
You know?

Chuck (56:12.73)
Um, Jess hasn't been online for four days at all. And I am fucking terrified. Right. So.

to my people in Regina, if you know who I'm talking about, and most of you would if you're my people there. If you're talking to her, you tell her to get in touch, please, tell her to sign on. I don't even care if she says hi. If I see a message delivered, I will be a happy, happy man. But they're not even delivering right now, and I'm fucking terrified. And so here's the thing. Right?

Lisa (56:49.378)
Yeah. And appropriately so, sadly.

Chuck (56:55.442)
And I said in that episode that we spoke about her last weekend, and she messaged me, she watched that episode, it's the first episode she's ever watched. And she messaged me and quoted me saying, statistically, I know that's the last time I'll see her live. And that it broke her heart that I said that. And since then, I've reached out to her mother, given her an opportunity to use the show as some support. Her and I.

in those days, you know, those few days after that, talked quite a bit and I'd say, hey, just, you know you're loved, right? You know you're loved. And I made that little video for her to say, you know, you know, whatever. And she hasn't been online in four days. Fucking scared, right? So if you are, A, if you're in Regina and you know what I'm talking about, please go kick her in the ass and tell her to sign in. I've Googled the name, she's not in the news releases or anything.

I'm terrified to text her mother. I don't want to do that to her mother because I know that's the only way her mom has to get in touch with her as well. And I don't want her mom to be as worried as I am because for her that would be hell, right? So.

Lisa (58:09.878)
you also know, Chuck, that you contacting her is, I mean, I'm sure she's worried. If, like you said, if that's her only means of communicating, then she's aware.

Chuck (58:15.214)
Right, yeah. And fair enough, right? So maybe it's me, maybe it's more than me not wanting to, maybe it's me, you know, who knows what my motivation for not reaching out to her mom is, but.

Chuck (58:31.51)
That said, if you have a loved one, right, don't fuck around. This is exactly what we're talking about right now, right? Reach out and, because this is our reality. She was clean for two months, like a month ago, whatever it was, it wasn't just recently, right? And the shame of what happened after her relapse.

And she spoke about her relapse, about how she didn't even know how it happened. She remembers making the call, all those things, but she has no idea what the fucking why. Right? But she went from being with her mother and her children, who live with her mother, on the reservation, to boom! Back in the fucking middle of it, in a matter of hours. And when I left, I was leaving her with no winter jacket, cold.

and homeless in Regina. Right? So.

Lisa (59:26.946)
And you know, to me, the part of why I think that, and I know it's not feasible for everybody, but I do believe on what you think, Jason, but I think that physical separation from your place of use is helpful. Because yeah, you could, because people will say, oh, you can find drugs anywhere. It's like, yeah, you can. But if you're in an unfamiliar place, you gotta take the time to figure out where and who and how.

Chuck (59:45.494)
Fuck yeah it is.

Jason MacMillan (59:52.297)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (59:56.306)
If you're in your hometown, then the number is still in the phone. And it, you know, so it's like anything you can do to create space between that automatic urge or thought to go and use and your ability to access the more time in there is the more opportunity to stop and go, wait a minute, what am I doing? I don't want to do this. And I think that's why it's so hard without physical relocation in the early days, at least, um, because it's just.

Jason MacMillan (01:00:02.027)
Mm-hmm.

Jason MacMillan (01:00:08.075)
Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (01:00:15.15)
Totally. Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (01:00:22.559)
Yeah, yeah.

Chuck (01:00:23.434)
Right? Because how long does the craving last? This is in the literature and it's like a craving lasts minutes really, right? I can't remember what the, there is a number attached to that statement. I just don't remember what it is, but anything you can do to make those minutes, you know, like, you know, if you're serious about your recovery and you're having a craving and it's gonna take you half an hour to find dope, maybe that craving's come and gone by then, right? If you kind of let it process it and work its way out of you, right? So, right? You know?

Jason MacMillan (01:00:47.334)
Yeah. Well, yeah, and I guess I'll I like to touch on that. And I understand like it's for sure it's important, I think, to be removed from our environment, all the stressors, all the factors. But I think like I think maybe I think I was if I can reframe that for myself, I'd be like that on its own wasn't didn't work. Do you know what I mean? Like, but yeah, but I think

Chuck (01:01:13.418)
No.

Lisa (01:01:14.306)
Totally. Oh no. Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (01:01:16.53)
All of the things and for some people, Lisa and Chuck, like that, that's all that they need. You know, and again, we talk about like recovery for one individual might be a matter that needs to change your environment, relocate, find a different job. They found a healthy partner and their life is significantly better. And that's there that works for them. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Totally. Yeah.

Chuck (01:01:24.246)
Yeah, right.

Chuck (01:01:37.702)
whatever, whatever works for you man, it's the right path in my mind, you know, whatever. If your life is better today than it was yesterday, you're doing something right.

Lisa (01:01:42.946)
Yeah, and I certainly don't, and I don't mean to imply that I think, because I mean, I think even when you don't have substance use disorder, I think we all need therapy. So I'm not implying in any way that I think relocation is all anyone needs, but I think it can be a helpful add-on.

Jason MacMillan (01:01:52.77)
Totally. Yeah, totally. No, no

Jason MacMillan (01:01:58.294)
Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (01:02:01.511)
Oh yeah, totally, totally.

Chuck (01:02:02.85)
With that, you know what, that's a really good point. And Jason, I know you're gonna jump on this, so I'm gonna use this as the last segment we talk about, because Lisa, that was a very good point. Because we're just, we're getting to that point in the episode, but there is one more, and I know you're gonna love talking about this, Jason, so that's why I'm gonna use it as the last segment before we get into the gratitudes of that. Therapy. So I'll speak really quick to my journey here, which I should do anyway, you know, is.

Jason MacMillan (01:02:08.71)
Oh. Yeah.

Chuck (01:02:30.43)
For those of you that might not be aware, I'm in Thailand at the Autra Treatment Center, and I'm going through trauma therapy for the first time in my life. EMDR was fucking mind blowing, was absolutely, when I finished my first session with Mike, Jason, I'm not sure if you saw the reel, I know you did, Lisa. When I finished my first session with Mike, can you still hear me, Jason?

Jason MacMillan (01:02:47.95)
Thanks for watching!

Jason MacMillan (01:02:57.334)
Yeah, I can hear you.

Chuck (01:03:00.754)
Okay, okay, good. So when I finished my first EMDR session with Mike, and we had processed one of my big T traumas, I looked at him and I said, fuck you. He said, yeah, right, nobody had ever said that to him before. Because I was in absolute disbelief at how effective what the process had just done for me. Like it was just.

Jason MacMillan (01:03:09.454)
Thank you.

Lisa (01:03:14.973)
I love that he said no one had ever said that to him before.

Chuck (01:03:27.162)
I took this big G trauma that by just like writing the name of it, like giving it a name, writing it down was all I had to do for his benefit. And that was just so that we were talking about something. But I didn't have to describe the incident to him at all with any words. As far as relieving it goes, I had to pull up an image of that incident and that was it. And by the time we were done.

I had taken what, again, I meant to say, writing it down made me melt down. It made me completely break down just by doing that. By the time we were done, I could talk about it in this matter of fact way that was just, freedom, freedom from a memory that had, at times, crippled me in the last couple years. And then all the other things that are happening here, yoga, mindfulness.

real CPT right now, right? What a difference that is, right? Or CPT, sorry. Wow, hey, that's just like, whoo, I had no idea there was that much involved with cognitive behavioral therapy, right? I can't believe that we are trying as a society to help people with addiction without making therapy pretty much like a mandatory part of that.

You know what I mean? Or at least making it a real hard suggestion that if you wanna be successful, therapy's gonna greatly increase your odds of success because in my very short, limited exposure to still another three weeks of therapy to go, changed my life forever. Jason, your thoughts on therapy, and I kinda know your thoughts on therapy because we met through my very good friend and co-host, Ryan Baffgate. So go ahead, yeah.

Jason MacMillan (01:05:12.718)
Yeah. Well, I'm just I'm just happier there and and. Getting all that, that help and stuff, and I think it's a really good opportunity that not everybody has or probably like to have or can't for whatever reason. I don't know. Like, yeah. And with therapy.

Chuck (01:05:31.946)
Right, right.

Jason MacMillan (01:05:39.657)
I think for me, I needed to build a foundation of this from my own experience. Like I needed to learn some tools on how to stay clean and sober. First to the point where I felt I was out of place working at dress, like my trauma. Do you know what I mean? And not have to revert back to like a substance. So I think without that.

Chuck (01:06:02.866)
Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (01:06:04.65)
For just for me, I needed that piece in place first and all the supports because you know It was like if I didn't if I didn't have that and for me There's no point of doing trauma therapy if I can't stay clean and sober and And my history it because I tried that

Chuck (01:06:20.322)
Yeah.

Lisa (01:06:22.718)
Were you?

Jason MacMillan (01:06:26.21)
Go ahead Lisa.

Lisa (01:06:27.97)
Were you surprised, Jason, at the, were you surprised at the benefits that you, I'm assuming you feel you've reaped benefits from therapy, but were you surprised at the impact that therapy had on your life, on your thinking, on your recovery?

Jason MacMillan (01:06:44.107)
Oh.

I didn't, so the thing is like inside, and I'm a huge advocate for it and I talk about it, you know, at the, at the, my five year cake, I openly talk about if you have mental health or think that you seek professional help. I think, I think, sorry, from what my words, if you think, if you have trauma, seek professionals, that's why they're there. Like we don't, and it talks about in our literature, out of the big book, Val Cox Anonymous, it's in there.

to seek outside help, right? Some people need it. And so for me, like I got to a point where, yes, I was Queen and sober and a lot of amazing things happened through the 12 steps and the fellowship and giving back, doing all this stuff. But I was missing that fundamental piece where how come I, why am I four years Queen and sober and I still have this massive fear of abandonment and rejection and were showing up in all my relationships, personal relationships. And then when I start...

you know, got into a romantic relationship with Chelsea, it was really evident that I needed to do some work around that stuff, you know, and that's when I made a decision start seeing Ryan again has made profound, huge, huge shift in my, my behavior, my thinking, my outlook, how I view myself, how I, how I treat other people pivotal, like, I, yeah, it's huge. It's important. I think it's important we talk about it more.

Not we as in you guys, and you guys talk about it, but I'm just like, any opportunity I had to talk about it inside the 12 step rooms, I'll openly talk about it. You know, and like, absolutely. That's why those people are there.

Lisa (01:08:13.515)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (01:08:25.982)
And I think, you know, one of the things that's so amazing about doing therapy, you know, and obviously, I mean, I've done my own personal therapy at times in my life. I do therapy with patients. So I've seen it from both sides, but I like, I'll often say to patients like therapy is not It's not a complex, you know, thing to understand, right? Like if you sort of sit down and describe CBT to somebody, it sounds like almost common sense. But what's the magic to me about

doing therapy is that we get like our automatic thoughts, like we've lived with them for 30, 40, 50 years. And so we don't even realize the destructive nature of some of our thinking because we've thought that way forever. We just think that's how everyone thinks. And when you start working with a therapist who can help you catch those thoughts, break down those thoughts, explore those thoughts, that's the magic of it. Right? And sometimes it's, you know,

Jason MacMillan (01:09:06.338)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (01:09:22.89)
When it's your own thought, it's been with you for so long that you don't recognize that it can be so damaging. Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (01:09:30.37)
Totally. Yeah. Well, it's funny how it's become a part of our work. Our I don't want to see DNA, but just like my default setting will be to revert back to going in defense mode or pushing people away. And it's like, and I'm totally not even aware I'm doing it, you know, until we actually dive into that stuff. And it's actually I think sometimes needs to be pointed out to us. And then why, you know, and like, yeah, so.

Lisa (01:09:47.906)
exactly.

Lisa (01:10:01.802)
Yeah, and I think the hope, right, is that the more work we do, the more we become aware of our, you know, distortions or negative patterns of thought, and then we can start, you know, I don't think we need to be an active therapy forever. But it'll amaze me, like even this particular week, like I have a patient at day hospital right now. And I feel like almost every second sentence, I'm stopping her and going, okay, but like just

Jason MacMillan (01:10:06.218)
Totally. Yep.

Jason MacMillan (01:10:16.023)
No.

Lisa (01:10:29.974)
think about what you just said to me. Like, and it's just this, we go round and round where she's got this like negative self-talk and negative self-criticism and she doesn't even realize she does it. You know, and again, it was done to her as a child by her parent and now she's taken it on and she's continuing the pattern and doing it to herself. But because she's lived 40 years doing this, she doesn't even notice it. And I'm like, but wait, like that was so critical. That was so negative. That was so destructive. And she's just like, oh, like.

Jason MacMillan (01:10:59.519)
Yeah.

Lisa (01:11:00.89)
And again, the hope is that the more we point this out, eventually we can start to recognize that we're doing this to ourselves. And that's when we start to, the magic of starting to change our thoughts and catch our thoughts. Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (01:11:12.782)
Totally, yeah.

Chuck (01:11:17.07)
So, hey listen, we've gone well over the hour mark now and it's gonna be a long night for me. It is 1.50 in the morning here. I've got a lot of work to do still. So we're gonna have to bring that to, bring the episode to a closure. That does bring us to my favorite part of the show and that is the daily gratitudes. Jason, what you got for us today?

Lisa (01:11:25.759)
Hehehe

Jason MacMillan (01:11:27.828)
Wow.

Jason MacMillan (01:11:47.19)
who are you spot are you i'm grateful for the

Chuck (01:11:52.374)
Well, I thought I didn't have to warn you. I thought we've been here before, so. Right? It's, yeah. Yeah. Just remember that you are loved at the end too now, right? So, yeah, yeah. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (01:11:55.306)
Yeah, I know. I just did it. Yeah. I mean, I'm grateful for. Yeah, yeah. I'm grateful for my life, really, right? Like, you know, as a result of recovery, I have a life today. That's amazing. Have an amazing girlfriend. I'm grateful for the opportunity to, you know, come on here and help spread this message, you know, when there's lots of different ways to do it. I think it's awesome that you guys are doing your level of commitment to.

Lisa (01:11:57.026)
You know it's coming.

Chuck (01:12:14.018)
cards.

Jason MacMillan (01:12:24.302)
to everything that you're doing here. And it like has a lot of, you know, meaning and, and purpose and you guys have definitely got me to open up my eyes around, you know, a lot of, a lot of things for sure. Um, grateful for my family, grateful for, um, my girlfriend, Chelsea.

Chuck (01:12:43.306)
Yeah, yeah, right, right. I see you post a lot about her, man, and I think that's great. It's great that you found some happiness, and I hope that lasts as long as the universe will allow, and hopefully that's forever, because you guys, you seem really happy, genuinely happy, right? Yeah, yeah, it seems that way, right, so. Lisa, some...

Jason MacMillan (01:12:47.694)
Cheers.

Jason MacMillan (01:12:57.016)
Yeah, I got pretty lucky. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Lisa (01:13:01.567)
You

Lisa (01:13:05.186)
I would argue it's not luck. I would argue that's not luck. Okay. Right?

Jason MacMillan (01:13:07.307)
No, I said you're right.

Chuck (01:13:08.527)
Well look at that, he's a dapper looking mofo, right? He's well spoken, he's got some shit going on for him. Like, let's say, Jason, if I were gay, I would date you. In a heartbeat, I'm just saying. I'm just saying, right? So, yeah. Ha ha ha.

Lisa (01:13:16.082)
Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (01:13:17.77)
Hahaha!

Lisa (01:13:22.191)
I will just encourage you Jason to own the happiness that you're living right now. That it is a product of five years of hard work and I don't think that you got her by luck.

Jason MacMillan (01:13:26.766)
Totally.

Jason MacMillan (01:13:31.414)
It is, yeah.

No, you're right. And I was talking about this too, and it came up and if this was like two years ago, this wouldn't have happened.

Chuck (01:13:37.462)
Well said.

Jason MacMillan (01:13:43.531)
You know, so.

Chuck (01:13:44.646)
You'd get a self-talked your way out of that, eh? Right, yeah, right? It's sabotaged and self-talked and all the things that we do, right? You know, yeah, all right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lisa, your turn, what you got?

Jason MacMillan (01:13:47.03)
Yeah, I'm trying to. Oh, 100%, 100% for sure. Yeah, so yeah.

Thanks guys.

Lisa (01:14:01.399)
Yeah, I mean, I'm grateful for a lot of things. I'm gonna just kind of keep it focused on like a here and now moment and just say that I am grateful that Jason is on here with us today. I've said it, I think, from maybe one of my first episodes on here that listening to Jason's story was and remains to be one of my favorite podcasts.

Like, I definitely encourage people to go back and listen to No. 78. I think...

Jason MacMillan (01:14:30.21)
Yeah.

Chuck (01:14:31.09)
And if for no other reason, the construction site story. If for no other reason, like listen to it for that. Because that still makes my art happy, right? Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (01:14:34.84)
Hahaha!

Lisa (01:14:36.247)
Yes!

Lisa (01:14:39.422)
Um, but I think, you know, part of what's special for me, and so this is sort of selfish, but part of what's special for me about Jason's story is the crazy, crazy parallels with my brother's story. Like I remember listening to Jason's story and saying to, I don't know if it was you Chuck or if it was Devin at the time, but you know, you could literally have renamed the episode with my brother's name. And it, it

the story was so true to my brothers. And so, you know, that, and then also, you know, Jason and I don't talk often, but you know, from time to time we do. And I always leave conversations with Jason wanting to have more time with Jason, wanting to, you know, like I would love, you know, and unfortunately it hasn't worked out for us to date, but like I would love to be in Vancouver and be able to go out at noon one day and sit somewhere and chat to Jason. And I think we would

Jason MacMillan (01:15:24.546)
Yeah.

Lisa (01:15:35.562)
sit there for hours, because I feel like there's always stuff we want to talk about. You know, we haven't really yet had the full opportunity to have some of the conversations I think we both want to have. But, you know, I believe it will happen at some point. And Jason, I just like I find you one of the most insightful people that I've ever met. You're so self aware, you

Jason MacMillan (01:15:35.926)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (01:15:48.523)
Yeah.

Lisa (01:16:01.746)
I believe that your desire to know yourself and to better yourself is so true and sincere and real. And I feel it every time I hear you talk, every time I engage with you. I find you so crazy inspirational and I'm like, I'm just proud to know you. I'm proud of everything you're accomplishing. And I just, yeah, I think you're awesome. So I'm grateful today that you're here.

Jason MacMillan (01:16:26.302)
Oh wow, that was a lot of nice things.

Chuck (01:16:28.374)
Wow. I'm gonna give you a couple of gratitudes, but first I wanna know, Jason, I wanna know how that hits you right now. I do, right?

Jason MacMillan (01:16:35.498)
Well, it's so Lisa saying all these like pretty amazing, thoughtful, really nice things about me. So yeah, thank you Lisa and likewise. So I'm kind of at a place like now in my life where it's like after five years of like really, really hard work and looking at myself and doing all the things that I'm actually like believe those things. So I guess it hits me a lot harder because I'm, yeah, like I...

Chuck (01:16:42.638)
It's just huge accolades from an amazing person, right? Yeah.

Jason MacMillan (01:17:05.478)
I agree with you, you know, and not coming from a place of like ego or just me being like, um, yeah, like I do deserve a better life. I do deserve everything that I, that I have, do you know what I mean? So it's like actually believe I'm like a decent like human today, which is like, I didn't I did. It took me like a long time to get there because people could give me those compliments before and say those things about me, but I didn't actually believe that. So that's how that's yeah, those are really nice things.

Chuck (01:17:25.91)
That's awesome, man.

Chuck (01:17:33.954)
Wow, man. Wow. Well, perfect. Perfect. And Jesus, what a great way to take that. I've still got a lot of work to go before I can handle those kind of accolades without putting up some negative shit in response. So good on you, man. Good on you. Listen, I am grateful. You know what I'm grateful for? Big time. Bougie water bottles. Right? This shit. I shit you not.

Jason MacMillan (01:17:35.093)
See?

Lisa (01:17:47.682)
Thanks for watching!

Lisa (01:17:51.327)
Mm-hmm.

Jason MacMillan (01:17:58.882)
Yeah.

Chuck (01:18:03.25)
Every day, my fridge has more of them in it than the day before because I drink them all. And so, like, and they're so on top of your shit here, right, they're like, well, if he's drank them all, he needs more. So they just give me, they make sure that there's more in my fridge every single fucking day. They get bigger and more plenty. I'm, to shit you not, it's the craziest thing. So I'm thankful for Bougie water bottles. I am. Oh.

Lisa (01:18:10.018)
They're like, this man's thirsty.

Lisa (01:18:16.076)
Yeah

Lisa (01:18:26.154)
I feel like you need a picture. I want a picture. I want you to open the fridge and I want a picture.

Chuck (01:18:30.546)
I will, you know what, they're not doing housekeeping on Sunday, so on Monday I will though. I'll send you a picture with a happy banana in there too. I may be, right? So. Yeah. I'm grateful for happy bananas. I am grateful for happy bananas. So for some context to that, Jason, when, on the first Weekend Ramble when I got here, Lisa, Attica and myself were talking about the difference in bananas. The bananas you guys are eating back there are shit.

Lisa (01:18:41.602)
Coffee outnose.

Jason MacMillan (01:18:58.652)
I'm gonna...

Chuck (01:18:58.934)
The bananas here are like dessert. I shit you not, man. Because they're not picked six weeks before you're eating them. They're picked like three days before you're eating them. And they're fresh and they're sweets. And they're just, it's like dessert. I shit you not. So Attica referred to the bananas in Canada as sad bananas. And the bananas here as happy bananas.

Jason MacMillan (01:19:07.136)
Right.

Jason MacMillan (01:19:20.383)
Yeah.

Chuck (01:19:21.638)
and the Otter Center has like a thousand statues. They're all over, like I haven't even seen them all yet. And like I walk around the property, I'm like the banana would work there. So I've been sending these pictures in this little group chat that has been dubbed Happy Bananas of these bananas placed on statues in different suggestive ways and whatever, right? So I'm grateful for happy bananas, right? I really am.

Jason MacMillan (01:19:44.331)
Yeah.

Chuck (01:19:46.122)
I have a lot of fun with it, right? I was saying I'm glad that I didn't have them the day we went to the Buddhist temple, because I probably would have got some Buddhist monks doing some Buddhist monks ninja on me, because I would have had them up in inappropriate places on all the statues there.

I am grateful for the opportunity to be here and have things like bougie water bottles and happy bananas. This place is so incredible, right? And to get here took a lot of generosity from a lot of people. It's taken a lot of support from a lot of people, not just financial but emotional support too, to get me to a point. I just moved halfway around the world with like $200 in my bank account.

I moved here to fucking do this crazy thing and I am like beyond grateful that all of those things happened. It's just the most amazing situation for me, right? And I don't think I could put that into words. I am also grateful to every watchers, listeners, supporters, LWSs, I'm starting to call them.

You know that take part in the show that listen to the show if you are watching hit the like button Smash the subscribe button wherever that is down there. I Never know where the hell it is. So I just point everywhere now Every time you do any one of these things you're getting me a little bit closer to living my best life My best life would be to make a humble living spreading the message. The message is this

If you are in active addiction right now, today could be the day that you start a lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call into detox, go to a meeting, I don't care. Do whatever it is you need to do to get that journey started because it is so much better than the alternative. And if you have the love for somebody who is suffering an addiction right now, just take the time to listen to the weekend ramble. If you could just take one more minute out of your day and text that person, let them know they are loved.

Chuck (01:21:44.507)
Use the words.

Lisa (01:21:46.687)
You are loved.

Chuck (01:21:49.55)
that little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings it back. Oh, stop. You didn't say you are love, Jason. Ha ha ha.

Jason MacMillan (01:21:57.047)
No, I didn't.