234 - DR. LISA - LOVING SOMEONE WHO SUFFERS IN ADDICTION

Chuck LaFLange (00:01.299)
Hello everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds. Welcome to another episode of the Ashes to Awesome podcast. I'm your host, Chuck LaFlange in Krabi, Thailand, halfway around the world in virtual studio. My beautiful co -host, Dr. Lisa. How you doing today, Lisa?

Lisa (00:14.685)
I am, I'm good. How are you?

Chuck LaFLange (00:17.587)
good. I'm great. I'm really happy to see that you are wearing the You Are Loved hoodie. Really happy to see that. Yes, yes. That's the first white, second white one I've seen with the black on it like that. So yeah, yeah, right. So yeah, it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. Okay.

Lisa (00:22.429)
Right? I know.

Lisa (00:28.509)
Yeah. Yeah, no, I love it. So we got a few of them, right? Because mom and dad ordered them. So we'll get a group shot and post it so you can have a look. So nice. And it's like nice and light, especially like spring, right? So having something that's not super heavy.

Chuck LaFLange (00:42.899)
Can't wait to see it, can't wait to post it.

Chuck LaFLange (00:48.915)
Yeah.

Yes, yes, absolutely. And so many of our followers, supporters, whatever you want to call them, are in the US, you know, further south. Things get a little warmer. They don't never have need for a thick hoodie, as it were, right? Or bunny hug, as they're called in Saskatchewan. Oh yeah. Yes, you did. Yeah, when we had Todd on, right? We'll have to get Todd back on one of these days, actually. Yeah, yeah. You know...

Lisa (00:52.477)
but it's very nice, I like it.

Lisa (01:03.837)
Yeah, exactly.

Lisa (01:10.109)
I forgot about that. I learned that on this podcast. Bunny hugs. Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:20.435)
As we're just before we're recording, we're talking about future guests. Zane, we've got to get Zane back on. Not Zane, yeah. Zan, Zan, Zan. We've got to get him on with you and I, actually. Yeah, we really do. So yeah. As you know, I've been thinking about doing a recovery coach. No, you weren't. It was just him and I. And it was a long time ago. It was single digits. Was it single digits? No, double digits, but just, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (01:24.861)
Zan. Zan. Yeah.

Lisa (01:31.549)
trying to think when Zan was on, was I on? Or was it just you and him? Oh, OK. Yeah. Yeah. And I noticed, too, he's been doing some, yeah, he's been doing some different stuff, you know, because he does his, like, I don't, I don't want to, I'll get this wrong. But it's like coaching. And I think it's, right, more for men, I think.

Chuck LaFLange (01:54.771)
He's a recovery coach. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (01:59.357)
I'm not saying he doesn't take women, but I think more for men. But anyway, he's been doing some stuff too, so it would be interesting to have him back on. And I haven't seen Zan in so long. It would be great.

Chuck LaFLange (02:05.619)
Absolutely. I actually, as I've been looking at.

getting accredited as a recovery coach. I came across, I don't remember which company it was and I'm not gonna plug them now anyway, but there was Zan as one of the graduates, right? Just randomly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah, yeah. Gonna have to get him back on one of these days. So Zan, if you're listening, get in touch with me. ADHD says that I probably won't remember to get in touch with you until one day when I'm in a pinch and you'll feel like I'm using you as backup or something, so. It's usually how this goes, right? So.

Lisa (02:21.085)
Oh, oh really? Oh wow.

Lisa (02:28.349)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (02:41.875)
And I know he does tend to listen or watch the weekend rambles. Exciting news this past week. Of course, while she's already title sponsored one episode, they have Far Canada, Families for Addiction Recovery. And they are the title sponsor of this episode as well. So back to, not back to, but continuing on with.

the underlying theme on this show. And of course we are an addictions podcast. However, I think what separates us from many platforms is that we put so much focus on to families, right? And I'll explain why that is. It's something I've explained in many messages and I don't know that I've ever actually said it on the podcast.

Lisa (03:20.765)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (03:31.229)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (03:31.827)
Where that comes from, for me, where the need for that comes from is that, you know, and I've said before on the show.

10 % of the resources go to people to, you know, how do I say that? 90 % of the people affected by addiction aren't the people who actually suffer an addiction, it's their loved ones. And they get maybe 10 % of the resources. So that's not that I think we should have less resources going to people who suffer an addiction. I think there should be more going to the families. That's a qualifier I have to throw in there. But.

Lisa (03:53.853)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (03:59.485)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (04:06.067)
I also don't believe that most people in active addiction, and you can't say all, but I think it's safe to generalize in this case, aren't tuning into a podcast. And though the recovery stories are very important to be told, I think they give hope and support mainly for people that have already found recovery, more so than the people who are in active addiction. But...

Lisa (04:16.861)
No.

Chuck LaFLange (04:33.715)
the families of those people, all the loved ones, not just the families, the friends, everybody else are desperately searching for resources all the time. As you know, because of course you are the loved one of somebody who's suffered an addiction, right? And well, that's how we became friends and now co -hosts on the show. So, yeah. So I guess...

Lisa (04:40.797)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Lisa (04:46.685)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (04:50.653)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (04:58.483)
Can you do the Reader's Digest version of, you know, because not everybody knows your story, right? Like I tell little bits and pieces of it quite often, but yeah, right.

Lisa (05:04.125)
Yeah. Yeah, I know we haven't, it's funny, I haven't told this story in so long. Because I think the last time I probably told it was with you a year ago. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's right, actually. Yeah, like I, I talk a lot. So I'm going to try to make this reader's digest. But, but so I grew up in a little town.

Chuck LaFLange (05:16.404)
episode 101. Yeah, right. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (05:28.691)
Ha ha ha ha.

Lisa (05:33.789)
my parents have been together since they were 13 and they're like two teenagers still. But like a good home, good community, you know, when we were little kids, we had a lot of extended family in the same town as us and kind of like your typical, you know, Brady Bunch sort of childhood, right? We had supportive parents, we...

financially were comfortable. Our parents had us in activities, they were present. And neither of my parents abused substances ever. My mom did grow up with alcoholism in her family. But for her, the result of that was to sort of swing the other way where, I've said it before on the show, but...

at her and my dad's wedding, she drank apple juice in her wine glass because she was like in her late 20s before she would even drink wine. I think she had just grown up, you know, as a childhood of alcoholism and had had so many bad experiences that she wanted nothing to do with it. So we didn't grow up seeing people, you know, using, there was wine around like a

you know, for special meals or something, but minimal for sure. But again, respecting now that we do have like a pretty significant family history of addiction, just not in our own parents, not in our immediate family. And so I have a brother who's four years younger than me. And yeah, he was a really, really, really good hockey player. And

Chuck LaFLange (07:04.787)
Yeah. Good.

Chuck LaFLange (07:13.427)
Yep.

Lisa (07:29.821)
When he was a teenager, you know, he, him and his hockey team would go to parties and I think that's where he first got introduced to drugs. So, you know, with a bunch of really good kids who were, you know, good students, great athletes. And I've heard stories from friends of his, you know, only hindsight kind of deal, but.

about how, you know, they would do drugs at parties and they would do drugs, but they'd do them and eventually they'd just fall asleep, pass out, whatever, you know, because they'd be at a friend's house kind of thing. And then they would, one of his friends told me, he said, like, we would all pass out. And he said, but I remember times I would kind of wake up at some weird hour of the early morning. And he said, like, if there were drugs there, your brother was the guy who was still up doing them and everybody else was asleep.

And I think there were many years where he, I think, was abusing them. There was definitely signs that he was, you know, his use was concerning, that he would go on to develop severe addiction. And then I think what ended up happening is he had actually gone to a dealer looking for cocaine and the dealer said, well, I'm out at the moment, but I've got crack.

Chuck LaFLange (08:53.842)
Thank you.

Lisa (08:57.917)
And he'd never done it before. So now you've got somebody who I think at that point had some level of addiction and he's standing in front of a dealer expecting to get something and getting told, well, all I've got is this stuff. And he has said to me that that from the, from that first moment, like it was a changed game. Um,

Chuck LaFLange (08:58.547)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (09:19.603)
Yeah, as you know, I can relate to that myself. My whole life, my whole life turns the moment, the moment that I, in my case, switched back to crack. So I did it for a while, quit for almost 20 years. But the moment I picked that pipe back up, boof.

Lisa (09:23.453)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (09:32.573)
You know, and if you look at, yeah, and if you look, you know, because they, people who do research, which is not me, but researchers look at, you know, levels of dopamine in your brain with various things, right? Whether it's a hug from your kid, whether it's a glass of wine, whether it's sex, whether it's drugs. And if you look at the, all of it, right? And if you look at,

Chuck LaFLange (09:57.811)
good food, exercise, all the things.

Lisa (10:02.173)
crack compared to cocaine. Because like even in the hospital, like I'll have patients when I do a drug screen who'll be like, oh yeah, I use cocaine. And I will say to them, like, you snort cocaine up your nose or you're smoking crack. And they'll be like, oh, I smoke crack. And it's like, OK, not the same thing. And I don't know if they know that and they're minimizing it because I think there is more stigma, right? Like I've been told that cocaine users will still be little crack, you know, people addicted to crack.

Chuck LaFLange (10:20.275)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (10:25.459)
Oh yeah, there is. Yes. Oh, without a doubt. Of course. Of course I do. Yeah.

Lisa (10:33.053)
Right? And so, but if you look at the, that there's a significantly huge difference in the amount of dopamine influx you get in your brain when you use crack cocaine, right? And so, you know, this was like this evolution over a number of years and it kind of culminated to a point where I, I was in grad school. So I had,

Chuck LaFLange (10:43.475)
Oh yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (11:01.309)
moved out and done an undergrad and then when I was in grad school I had moved home and he was attending college and so after us having not lived together for a number of years we were both living together and we knew something was wrong and now in hindsight I guess that's one of the things that stands out is for families that don't don't live in this world it really can happen right under your nose and you don't know you know.

Chuck LaFLange (11:30.195)
Of course.

Lisa (11:31.293)
When I look back, when we finally learned what was going on, my six foot tall brother weighed 120 something pounds.

Chuck LaFLange (11:41.139)
It's happening in front of you, so it's that gradual, just like you don't notice your kids grow so fast, it's the same idea, you're not going to notice somebody close to you shrinking.

Lisa (11:44.285)
You don't see it.

Lisa (11:50.973)
Yeah, which I feel like people haven't experienced it because I think I would have been like, oh, come on, give me a break. And but no, like you really don't you really don't see it. And I think there was just a lot of ignorance there. And for people out there who get to live in that ignorant bubble, like go you, because the reality of this is so dark and terrible that, you know.

Chuck LaFLange (12:11.475)
Ha ha.

Lisa (12:16.893)
count your blessings if you have never had to and never need to know about this stuff. But so we kind of started to know something was wrong. Like, it was things like with sleep pattern, for example, you know, because he was in college, and he had gone from being quite motivated, and we would, you know, he would be up and he was a morning person by nature. So he would be up, he'd be ready to go, he, you know, he'd be doing homework in the evenings, and that all started to sort of change. And so we,

I remember this one night, and again, you're talking 20 something years ago, but I remember this one night very clearly where he was home and he was upset and we were kind of like, there's something going on, like what's going on, and trying to have conversations with him. And he admitted something was going on, but had a very hard time telling us what it was. And I think there was just a lot of shame. And when he did finally tell us, at that point he had actually,

done a bunch of research, like he had looked for programs and like, you know, what he needed to do. And, and when he did tell us, he said like that he had debated just, just leaving and going to these places and like leaving us a note, you know, because he didn't want to tell us what was happening. But having said that also, more ignorance is that this place that he had in mind was not, you didn't go there for free, you know.

Chuck LaFLange (13:43.763)
Yeah.

Lisa (13:44.797)
and you needed to detox before you could show up at their door. Like they wouldn't take you until you had proof that you had detoxed. And there was all these steps, right? And that's one of the problems too, is that people don't know the steps. Sometimes people don't have time for the steps. And I do feel to this day, like a lot of those steps are barriers because they, we eventually, and I'm kind of going ahead and back and ahead and back, but he did eventually go to the program.

Chuck LaFLange (13:58.099)
there.

Lisa (14:14.685)
the one he had found.

Lisa (14:19.261)
And we ended up finding out later that the government had this thing where they would fund it through provincial health, but there was all these criteria. So to have it funded, you know, the person needed to be seen and assessed by a psychiatrist. Okay. I can tell you that to be seen and assessed by a psychiatrist today in Alberta, you're looking at like,

a three to six month wait?

So you're going like, if somebody is in that position and has this moment of clarity where they realize they need help, you want them to go to the family doctor, get a referral to see a psychiatrist, wait up to six months. And I'm guessing, because this was in Nova Scotia, I'm guessing Nova Scotia is even longer. I could be wrong, but I would guess it's longer. But so wait three to six months to be seen by a psychiatrist.

in order for you to then go to this program and get financial support.

Chuck LaFLange (15:27.795)
And of course, how long ago is this now? Just for some perspective.

Lisa (15:31.101)
This was in about 2003, I think, 2003.

Chuck LaFLange (15:36.051)
Okay, so times have changed since then. These are no longer quite, I mean there's other barriers, but you don't have to be seen by a psychiatrist to get referred into treatment now. That I'm pretty, I would hope, my lord, I would hope. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (15:44.125)
I -

Lisa (15:49.149)
Yeah, no, that's true, I think. Again, I don't do a lot of outpatient work, but yeah, I mean, I don't know.

Chuck LaFLange (15:57.523)
Well, I know you don't in Alberta, but I would assume across the country it would be that way.

Lisa (16:03.517)
Yeah, and I don't know, there was a lot of reasons behind it. Like part of the reason for him to go to this particular program is that it was a young adolescent centered program. And at the time Nova Scotia had one adolescent young adult program. And here's another little fun tidbit. At the time, their program for teenagers and young adults closed down at Christmas.

Easter, summer holiday, like what? Like it literally shut down during holidays. You know? Yeah, I mean, again, I don't, hopefully it's, there's nothing like that anymore, but there was a lot of reasons why that program made a lot of sense. And we did end up, you know, squeaky wheel gets the grease. We did end up getting the money back from the government.

Chuck LaFLange (16:39.347)
us.

while I'm delivering different times. Yeah, yeah.

Lisa (17:03.005)
And, but it was a huge fight. Like I, I still have this binder and I had literally made a list of every treatment program in Nova Scotia. I had called every one of them and recorded conversations with the staff. And in most cases, staff were saying like, I would not send my child here. But documented these conversations, the names.

reasons why, and some of them, they were like, you know, we're also a three month wait to get in, or, you know, we don't take people that do the drugs that your brother's using, or we don't take people your brother's age. There was all these various reasons. And so we did end up getting a meeting with the health minister in Nova Scotia. And in the end, we did get the money back. But it was like a lot, a lot, a lot of hours of like collecting data.

You know, and for us, obviously, it was nice to get the money back. Like these programs are not cheap, but there's a lot of people out there who couldn't afford to front the money and then hope to get it back later. You know?

Chuck LaFLange (18:09.171)
God, money aside, everything you just said, right? So like six month wait, three month wait, you're at nine months, you know? So if somebody's 18 years old, right? Like nine months is, nevermind nine months, right? Like, yeah.

Lisa (18:18.877)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (18:23.901)
Yeah. Well, he came when we met with the health minister, he came with us and he said, you know, he said, if, if we had done what you're saying we needed to do, I'm telling you right now, I would be dead.

Chuck LaFLange (18:37.203)
Well, yeah, right? Like, there's so many things that are wrong with that. But we are in a different time now. I don't know that the wait lists are that much. I mean, back then it was nine months of this. Now I think it's probably six months of that. But, you know, like to get maybe three months of that. But even that's way too long, way too long, right?

Lisa (18:38.269)
Um.

Lisa (18:43.133)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (18:53.213)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (18:59.549)
And it's like, there's still a lot, you know, like most of the time when I see this stuff now, it's with patients in the hospital and, and we have like a team of people who assist them. But it's like, there are so many programs and while that's great, it can be really overwhelming for somebody suffering an addiction to figure out where do I go? Like step one, you know, I'm not going to apply to 20 places because just completing a single application for somebody in that mental state is really challenging. So.

Chuck LaFLange (19:28.691)
So, we've got the evidence.

Lisa (19:30.077)
I think that the process can be quite overwhelming. You know, because we have like in the hospital, we have people who will come and sit with a patient, get their history, talk about, you know, their values, what's important to them, and then they will help them and say, you know, we think these particular programs are a good fit for you. Some of it's demographics too, like how old you are, some of it has to do with what substances you're using, some of it has to do with physical location of the programs, but we have a group of people.

Chuck LaFLange (19:34.323)
it.

Chuck LaFLange (19:57.523)
culture, all of it, right? Yeah, there'd be, yeah, right.

Lisa (19:59.997)
who will come and help you decide, help you with applications. But if you've got someone who's living on the streets.

Chuck LaFLange (20:08.371)
To put this in perspective, in perspective, if you remember you and I, let's go back six months, seven, eight months maybe, when I was like desperately searching for some ADHD medication and you know, I had to see somebody and get my healthcare number. Everything you just described is so many more times more stressful. And look at like for me, I couldn't.

Lisa (20:11.325)
speak of barrier, right?

Chuck LaFLange (20:35.283)
You know, at the time, navigating that process was just like too much for me, right? So, and that's me sober, wanted to get my shit together, have supports.

all the things, can you imagine somebody trying to navigate this system that's just very early in recovery without a ton of support, without, I've got some intrinsic resources too that maybe not everybody has. There's so many, and that was almost impossible for me. I never did get it sorted out, did I? I never did. I'm just thinking, everything you just said, there's an actual physical response in me right now. How in the fuck?

Lisa (21:03.229)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (21:12.029)
Mm. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (21:14.003)
is somebody supposed to handle that, right? And thank God he had you guys as family, but how many people don't have that? People in their corner, like trying to help them navigate all this stuff when you're just trying to survive, right? Because that's the reality of it. So I don't mean to cut you off, but so where, so it gets into treatment and then.

Lisa (21:16.349)
Totally.

Lisa (21:24.669)
Yeah. Oh, absolutely.

Lisa (21:37.373)
Yeah, so he went to detox, actually went to detox and again, ignorance, there was so much like I was so naive, right? But he went into detox. And I remember, I remember going home that night and being like, oh, okay, like, you know, he's a detox, like, we're good, you know, and, and we knew that the plan was to pick him up from detox and go to treatment. But I think it was the first or second night that he was at detox that

Chuck LaFLange (21:40.915)
Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (21:52.5)
Oh, little did you know.

Lisa (22:04.509)
My dad called and just said, Hey, just wanted to check in how he's doing. And they were like, Oh, he checked himself out. And so he had used the phone, um, like they're the unit phone called the dealer. The dealer picked him up at detox with a crack pipe ready to go. And apparently told him that, you know, he's like, Oh man, don't go in there. Like, you know, they'll make it crazy in there. And, um, we ended up.

tracking him down, he showed up at a friend's house. And so we tracked him down later that same day. And with friends and us, like all convinced him to go back. And then I told you this, but I, at the time I was dating this guy. And so we sat in the parking lot for five days. Yeah, that was interesting. And it was also,

Chuck LaFLange (22:53.075)
Thank you.

Fuck.

Lisa (23:02.301)
for me like so eye -opening because so he was, it was like a two or three floor building and he was on the top floor. That's just where the detox was. And I remember sometimes he'd come to the window and so like I could, he could see me, I could see him, but he would call me and like the roller coaster that we would go on in like a 10 minute phone call was wild. Like this was like my first exposure.

to the fact that your brain is not okay. Like, he'd call me and yell at me and scream at me and call me names and tell me that I was ruining his life and all this kind of stuff. And then it's like he would break and he would be emotional and apologetic and, and.

Chuck LaFLange (23:31.379)
Wow.

Lisa (23:54.077)
like, it was just wild, like the ups and downs. And I think it was just, you know, seeing him go through those cravings and seeing that like internal war in his brain. And I'm sure that I saw the tip of a massive iceberg to what he was actually experiencing. But so he ended up staying the five days because he felt like he couldn't leave because we were in the parking lot. And we picked him up. And I remember like,

We wouldn't stop anywhere. Like, I don't even think we were willing to stop at Tim Hortons. It's like we're not slowing the car down. Because if we slow the car down, there's fear that like you'd jump out and run.

Chuck LaFLange (24:35.635)
I want to suck you in there, Lisa. I've heard the story a bunch of times. You know, a bunch of times. I've heard it more than once anyway. And me being somebody, you know, in his shoes, right, I can like, oh yeah, totally see it. But as I'm sitting here listening to you this time, and of course, the focus being on the family, I'm like, what about you? Like, how, like...

awful or how terrifying or how like what's that experience like for you as as his big sister right like like sitting through that and you've told us this story but you've you've told it about what he's going through what what were you going through at the time right

Lisa (25:09.437)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Lisa (25:19.677)
You know, I think at the time, I was like in survival mode myself, like there was adrenaline -filled, fueled motivation. You know, like I was in the midst of grad school, I stopped going. Like I went in, I did finish, but I went in to see my, my prof at the time and said like, this is what's going on. I don't know when I'll be back.

I think I was off for maybe a month or something. It wasn't a long time, but I was so hyper -focused. And some of that's my personality. I think everybody will handle that differently based on their personality. But I very much was motivated to fix. I was going to fix this. I was going to save him. And yeah, I mean, I was very sad.

Like I remember, like I said, I was dating a guy at the time who was lovely, like probably one of the nicest guys I've ever dated in my life. And I just didn't give a shit. Like I didn't care if he fell off the planet. You know, I was so hyper -focused, like nothing else mattered to me. I remember being fully prepared to be out of school as long as necessary to...

use whatever student loan money was needed. Like, you know, I was in grad school, I wasn't earning, I think I was making like 20 grand a year, you know, but I was like, I will pull student loans. Like there was no stop for me to what I would do, you know? And so just, I don't know that I was feeling a lot of anything, you know, like I think I was predominantly just crazy, like, and I think that was a coping.

was a total coping skill. I mean, part of it was I was trying to save my brother and I felt the urgency of it. Like I was terrified he was going to die. You know, like this wasn't like a, well, if, you know, if we don't get him help, he might die one day. I was like, my reaction was as if my brother was going to die in 10 minutes. Like it was very intense.

Chuck LaFLange (27:17.651)
course.

Chuck LaFLange (27:33.107)
Well, and we joke about you being the muggles of the muggles, but in a circumstance like this, again, for me, like, it's like, okay, well, they're gonna shit together. Like, I would be so much more calm about that because, okay, well, it's crack, it's bad, but it's not fentanyl. So, you know, a very, very different thing for me because I have this lived experience as somebody who's been there or somebody like yourself.

You know, what have you had? You've had just say no, shove down your throat. You've had, you know, all the things, same things that I have growing up, right? Like, you know, we're essentially the same age, certainly the same generation. And so you've got all these worst case scenarios floating around in your head. Your younger brother, you don't know anything about that lifestyle. I can only imagine, right? It's like, ah. Yeah.

Lisa (28:13.949)
Yeah. That's the thing is I think that there is a lot of, there's more fear, like similar to you today because of the work I do when I see a patient and I see families reacting the way I reacted. And of course, now I sit there and I have to try to balance validating them, being compassionate with them and also thinking to myself, you know, your kid snorting cocaine, it's not good, but I don't think he's, you know, he's not going to die in the next 10 minutes.

Chuck LaFLange (28:29.075)
Yeah.

Lisa (28:43.389)
Opiates, another story, obviously, but yeah, with like for me, I literally like I've never smoked a joint. Like I, you know, and I was always.

Chuck LaFLange (28:51.603)
Yeah, right? So, there's a lot of unknown there. My gosh, there's a lot of unknown, right? So much so that I just said, oh my gosh, for the first time in my adult life. That's so much.

Lisa (28:58.141)
So naive, right? So...

Lisa (29:05.085)
You know, and the thing too is like as a kid, I was, I don't remember how or why, but I was kind of fascinated by my mom's story, you know, like because my mom was born in Montreal. And then when she was, I think about 12 or 13 years old, she moved to Labrador where I was born. And then she was raised for the rest of her childhood by her aunt. And I knew that. And, and I think.

You know, I was never told the extent of things, but from a young age, I was aware of that and that that's not typical. And I would ask questions. And so I do think like in a very age appropriate fashion, like I was told the stories and it's because I would ask, like I wanted to know. And so I knew from a relatively young age that my grandparents had struggled with alcoholism and the extent of destruction that it had caused in the family.

And I think that that from a young age made me terrified of substances. You know, like I was a teenager who would go to parties all the time and I would do one of two things. I would lie and tell people I was allergic to alcohol or I would tell people I was intoxicated when I hadn't touched anything because I was just like I had heard these stories and that combined with my personality, I was like, I'm not going there.

But yeah, so I was like, I would say that in that time, like I was very stressed out, you know, like, I'm sure if you had measured my cortisol level, it was through the roof. I was terrified, like terrified that my brother was going to die. And probably more terrified than sad. Like, I feel like between the motivation and the drive and the focus to fix him.

and the complete terror that I felt. I don't know that there was a lot of space to feel anything else, you know?

Chuck LaFLange (31:07.059)
fight, fight or freeze, there's no room for sad in there. No, I think that's, those are, that's trauma response, right? 100 % that's trauma response, right? If you had Mike here, he'd be all over this right now talking about it, so. Jeez, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lisa (31:17.629)
I know, I know, right? I'm thinking about all the parts of me, you know, all the parts of me. There was different parts of me at play there, that's for sure. And other parts, there was no space, there was no space for other parts in those moments. But you know, and I remember feeling a lot of relief when he got to treatment, the treatment center he went to was, I think maybe four or five hours from where we lived. And it was also probably,

Chuck LaFLange (31:27.827)
No kidding, no kidding.

No.

Lisa (31:47.933)
It was a long, long way from a town. Like it was in the middle of nowhere, like on a beautiful lake out in the country, which is perfect in my mind. But I was, again, also at that point, I was aware of the fact that his mind could change any moment. Like I had watched it sitting in the parking lot of the detox center. And so I was becoming less naive.

I was still very afraid. But yeah, I don't know that I ever really let myself feel a lot of the sadness. I think for me, to sit and feel sad is very vulnerable. And that's not a place I like to be in, which again, Mike would have a heyday, Ryan would have a heyday. But I...

Chuck LaFLange (32:33.811)
Thank you.

Lisa (32:45.181)
I don't know if it's being an older kid, like I'm the oldest child. Some of it is just, you know, my dad is kind of that way. And I think, be it through modeling or genetics, like that's just kind of the way I am. It's like, I like to fix stuff. And so, you know, I very much stayed for a very long time in a place of wanting to, like I was just going to fix it. And there was no limit for me. Like I said, at the time, like I probably would have bankrupted myself and sold everything I owned.

to if I had had to, to try to get him help. And then I think I kind of switched at some point from being completely terrified to wanting to understand it. Like again, then it, you know, and a lot of this is probably all my defenses, right? Cause there's a defense known as intellectualization. And that was, you know, this desire to understand the science of it. Well, it's.

Chuck LaFLange (33:18.259)
Thank you.

Chuck LaFLange (33:38.099)
Yeah.

Lisa (33:41.853)
clearly benefited me. It's how I ended up going to med school. But a lot of it was probably defenses. And again, we all have defenses, we all use defenses. And some defenses are healthy, some are not. And you know, in terms of the way I went about it, like, do I think it was terrible? No. But I can kind of appreciate that some of it was probably about avoiding being sad, and or just feeling the sadness. And I think for me, too, it's like,

Chuck LaFLange (33:46.387)
Thank you.

Lisa (34:11.773)
To sit and feel sad is not gonna help anything. And that's not gonna help my brother if I sit here and cry. And I did cry. So I felt it. It's not like I didn't show emotion. I definitely had moments. I remember this one night laying in my bed when he was in detox and just crying. So I remember my boyfriend being there and he couldn't comfort me. I was just like, I wanted nothing. I was just like, go away. You don't get it. Just leave me alone. So I felt the feelings.

Chuck LaFLange (34:14.867)
No, no it's not.

Chuck LaFLange (34:23.571)
Yep.

Lisa (34:40.381)
But for me, predominantly, it was just the thing of sitting here and feeling sad is not going to help my brother. And helping my brother trumped feeling my feelings above everything. Like, because I was just like, I can feel my feelings later. Like, my brother's going to die. So like, screw my feelings kind of thing.

Lisa (35:02.205)
But, you know, I, yeah, so I, I probably didn't spend a lot of time and I would say like over the 20 whatever years it's been now, it's been over 20 years and there's been good times and bad times and periods of wellness and many relapses and, and all of that. And, you know, I've, I've definitely been sad, you know. Um, and the thing for me is like the sadness it's for him.

Chuck LaFLange (35:25.587)
Yeah.

Lisa (35:32.989)
You know, there's, I have moments where I feel sad that like, you know, I might live a part of my life without my little brother in the world, you know, when I've thought like he could die, you know, and so that's sad. But the greater sadness for me is sad for him, like sad that he carries this burden in life, you know, cause I look at it and go, I kind of feel like I am the lucky one genetically, you know.

Chuck LaFLange (35:33.395)
course.

Lisa (36:03.517)
I think that we both come from the same gene pool. And there's no doubt for me that a huge component of what has resulted in my brother being, you know, living the life he's lived is genetically driven, you know, with the family history that we have, there's definitely a genetic piece to it. And I kind of feel like I got lucky. And I think sometimes I feel guilty for that.

Chuck LaFLange (36:19.507)
Thank you.

Lisa (36:32.573)
But for me, it's just like, I see the suffering. Like I've seen it, I've seen it many times, the shame, the, like it's just a burden. Like it's almost like to me, there's this big black monster that likes to hang on my brother's shoulders and tries to pull him and break him. And I feel like even when he's well, I think it's a fight. You know, it's not, it's not like.

Like I can see him when he's well and we'll go out and we'll have laughs and it's great. But I'm not naive anymore to believe that there's still not this big monster just waiting to try to destroy him. You know, and so, yeah, I feel like I feel more sad that he has had to and continues to like carry this burden in his life. I've said to him before, like I...

I don't know that I would have the strength to do what he's done for the past 20 something years where for the most part he has tried to fight this. Like I don't know if I could have done it. I don't, you know, it may have broken me more than it's broken him, but legitimately, if I could take that from him, even for a time, I would do it in a heartbeat.

You know, it's just sad, like for anybody to sort of have to, you know, for like life is just hard enough as it is. Like life is, you know, life is just hard with the day -to -day stuff.

Chuck LaFLange (38:02.067)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (38:13.747)
Thank you.

Lisa (38:14.556)
But to live a life where just breathing is challenging, just being able to get out of bed is challenging, you know, looking in the mirror where, you know, you look in the mirror and you, you know, if looking at yourself in the mirror is hard to do, like, it's just sad. Like, that's what's, that's the sadness I feel.

Chuck LaFLange (38:43.059)
So.

Lisa (38:45.309)
And, you know, because we've talked before about how, like, you've said that you like the idea of, like, turn your sorries into thank yous, you know, which I love. But for me, I often think about that for families is like, what if families said to their loved one, like, I'm really sorry that you're suffering. You know, I'm really sorry that...

your days are so hard. Like, I'm sorry that you may have all these terrible feelings that you don't know what to do with. Like, like, what if families did more of that? You know, like, how would that change things?

Chuck LaFLange (39:36.115)
I wonder. I do wonder, right? Instead of what is the default, anger, fear, all sorts of different resentments in there, of course, right? Which are earned, and I don't need to take that away from the loved ones, right? It's a hard life, right? It's a hard life loving somebody who's suffering an addiction, right?

Lisa (39:59.663)
Yep. Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (40:01.715)
There's so much going on there. There's so much going on. So how do you turn that into empathizing with somebody that you love? Right? And I mean, I'm sure that if you love somebody, you're going to empathize with them on some level, right? But how do you go from being angry to saying, I'm sorry that it's like that for you? Right?

You got violent, you stole from the home, you ruined fucking Christmas, whatever. How do you go from that to, I'm sorry it's like this for you? Which is so understandable when, and I try to understand, I get quite upset with people sometimes about, you know, tough love and freeze them out and wait for them to hit rock bottom. And you know how I feel about all those things. I've been quite verbal about that on the platform over these past months. But.

Lisa (40:53.981)
And I think part of what's hard too, like, well, so much, there's so many hard things. Prefessing it like that is not really helpful, but.

is there's no answer, right? Doctors don't have answers. People with lived experience don't have answers. Family members who've been through it and their family member has died don't have answers. Family members who've been through it and their loved one has found sobriety and maintained sobriety, they don't have answers. Like no one has the answers. That's what's hard is, and as a family member, like we've heard it all. Like we've heard cut them off. Don't answer the phone call.

don't help them, don't feed them, don't do any of those things to everything on the other end of the spectrum, which is housing first models. And it's like, house him and feed him and like the broad width of recommendations that you get. It's like, yeah, and like as a family.

Chuck LaFLange (41:53.875)
Crazy. Yeah.

Lisa (41:57.501)
You know, one minute you're going, okay, well, this guy seems to know what he's talking about, so I'm going to listen to him and we'll follow that advice. And then like, you know, a week later you read a book by somebody who's also really reputable and you're like, oh, okay, like he's saying do something else. And so it's like, it makes you dizzy because you're like, we don't know what to do. Um, and I think.

Chuck LaFLange (42:15.891)
I can't imagine. I can't imagine, I guess, but I couldn't have imagined before starting this podcast, but now I get a better idea.

Lisa (42:25.021)
Yeah, even now, like now, you know, in the hospital, like I, I have these conversations with families every week. And I don't tell patients and patients' families that I've been in their shoes. I don't always. There are times when I do, but, you know, I don't always. But I do sometimes sit there, and in my head, I'm thinking like, I know what you are going through.

and I still don't have an answer for you. Like, I don't have an answer. And which in some ways, as I say it out loud, it's like, well, that sounds really hopeless. Hopeless and depressing.

Chuck LaFLange (43:06.419)
I think like so much of this, like so much of the suffering, so much of the answers, it's all on a spectrum, right? And it's also unique to each person. And we've said this a thousand times too, but there is no, like you said, there's no easy answer and every soul is unique and every family is unique and every...

every case of this disease is unique and then you throw all that in together and you're coming up with a big slice of unique pie and it's going to be different for you than it is going to be for somebody else in your family to deal with. Never mind another family, never mind, right? Like there's just so much going on there. And I'll take a minute here to talk about FAR actually, FAR Canada.

Lisa (43:34.621)
Totally.

Lisa (43:43.901)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (43:52.893)
Hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (43:56.339)
I chased, peek behind the curtain, I chased FAR, Angie, the executive director there, for the better part of a year now. Mainly, and there's other organizations I could have approached, but mainly because their values align so strongly, right? And one of those things is that peer support.

Lisa (44:04.637)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (44:16.275)
system that they have going on there, which I think you can definitely relate to being an awesome thing, not that you had the opportunity to use it, but it's for loved ones and I think specifically parents, and we're going to get more into this as this relationship with Fargrows, but they match up peers. So if it's a mother to a mother, they're...

children have done, I hate saying children when we're talking about adults, but they're adult children. They try and make sure that they're kind of using the same group of drugs, whether it's stimulants or opiates or whatever, you know, alcohol, whatever. Culturally, somebody's indigenous or Caucasian, you know what I mean? Like try and, so they try and match up peers to peers to try and kind of negate as much of that individual uniqueness as they can and kind of bring people closer together. They need volunteers.

Lisa (44:56.751)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (45:10.003)
So anybody that's listening and on the north side of the 49th there in Canada, I mean, consider it. Consider it. It's a 25 -hour training program. And if you need the system as well, give them a shout. There's a bit of a waiting list for the peer -to -peer, but they also have a line that you can call and get some support in the meantime as well. That's kind of open during business hours -ish or whatever. When you and I first met, you talked about it.

I'm not trying to toot my own horn about the need for a podcast that kind of address these things. So far, it's like, you guys are doing exactly the thing and that's why I have chased them for a year and why I'm so proud of their partnership now, right? It's just fucking bang on, right? It's just, right? Yeah, absolutely right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

Lisa (45:52.093)
Yeah. Yeah.

meant to be. Match made in heaven. Yeah, I will say like that that was definitely something I think that we felt was like we just we didn't really know where to go. You know, like we had a really lovely family doctor who was sort of happy to support. But outside of you know, going to him for support and then knowing that we could go to Al -Anon meetings, we knew of nothing, like nothing.

We had no awareness of places to go and connect with other families. And through all the time, he spent probably a total of about maybe a year, because he went back a few times, but at this treatment center, and even there, we ended up building quite good relationships with some of the staff at the program he was at.

But I mean, even they, like they weren't like, oh, you know, we think you guys would also benefit from some support and here there's these programs and, you know, nothing like that. And they did some family stuff, but again, it was family stuff centered around supporting him. You know, like I remember, I remember a meeting where we sat together as a family with the case manager and kind of talked about things and everybody had a chance to kind of speak and share.

Chuck LaFLange (47:11.795)
Yes.

Lisa (47:22.781)
you know, what the experience had been like for us. And but even through that, like, you would think a program and again, maybe it I don't even know when did far start? Do you know when far was founded? Yeah, we should check it. But but you know, like, I feel like programs should be saying, like, you should reach out to an organization like far and

Chuck LaFLange (47:35.571)
I'm not sure. No, I'm not. No.

Lisa (47:47.965)
you know, it'll help with education and support for you as a family member. And because just like we talk about, you know, AA isn't for everybody suffering an addiction. And I think Al -Anon is not going to be for every family member. And I don't think that the only support available to families being Al -Anon is, I don't even like the word sufficient because it's so not sufficient that, that like we need a word that's on a whole other level. But,

Chuck LaFLange (48:02.643)
Yes.

Lisa (48:17.149)
Like we were never told about any kind of resources outside of residential treatment programs that said, oh, you know, we do some family work or we involve the family. But it's like, that's great. And I think that they should do that. But it's like, yeah, but you're involving the family in order to help the client, not to help the family per se.

Chuck LaFLange (48:40.115)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (48:42.589)
You know, so there, yeah, there needs to be. And that's why I think like a podcast like this, because while I, you know, while we're saying that there is no clear cut answer and that that's really difficult. Cause when a family member comes, whether they come to me as a sibling, as a sibling of someone who suffered, whether they come to me as a psychiatrist, whether they go to you as someone with lived experience, as someone who has suffered an addiction, we don't have the answers for them. Like we really don't, but.

Chuck LaFLange (49:07.699)
Nope.

Lisa (49:09.949)
I think just being able to go somewhere, like listen to the podcast or connect with Far Canada, to be able to talk to people who can relate, who can normalize things, who can validate the struggle and the challenges, like that's incredible. So it's, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (49:28.211)
Bang, let's touch on that for a second. All this energy goes into the person suffering. And it needs to. I don't ever mean to take away from that. I'll probably continue qualifying statements like this forever by saying that. But whoever validates that. When a mother says, my son is, people are like, oh, that sucks. Him, him, him, him, him.

right? But whoever says like, wow, that's hard on you. Right? You know, they'll help that person like blame quite often. That's, you know, but whoever says like, you know.

Lisa (50:05.405)
Yeah. And to be honest, I think, I think even to get the reaction of, oh, that sucks, doesn't always happen. I think sometimes instead, depending on who you're speaking to, if you're speaking to someone completely naive with no experience whatsoever, I think that you also run the risk of not even getting the validation of that sucks. But instead you run up against stigma, like, oh, well, what did you do as a parent? You know, what kind of mistakes did you make?

Chuck LaFLange (50:28.371)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (50:33.331)
Oh, yes. Even the fear, even, oh, and you know, I've dealt with that one as of late. Even the fear, even the fear of saying to people for fear of judgment.

Lisa (50:35.005)
Wow, like, you know, that would never happen to my kid, like.

Chuck LaFLange (50:47.763)
Right? To your best friend. Or like, how many people live these lives and nobody at work knows because they don't want to admit? Because what if they're going to, like, people are going to think this is my fault. Is it my fault? Right? Like, they're questioning themselves and then they've got a fear being questioned by other people or looked at by other people. And like, that sucks. Right? The whole thing sucks. So I think something like a peer -to -peer is hugely important.

Lisa (50:58.077)
Yeah. Totally.

Lisa (51:07.069)
Yeah, yeah. That's.

Chuck LaFLange (51:14.003)
And that it's a network that needs to grow. I know there's similar programs in the United States as well. And, you know, we'll get to those in another episode. But fuck. For every person that suffers, there's 10.

that are attached to that person that are suffering right alongside and need that validation and need that help and fuck, we'll get Mike on talking about the trauma too, right? Like everything you've just said to me, now that I've got this kind of Mike world around me now, right, with the whole trauma thing, it's the whole trauma thing that makes it sound pretty fucking whatever, but. Like I just, everything you're saying, I'm like, oh my God.

How'd you deal with that? Like have you dealt with that Dr. Lisa? Right? Oh shit I just.

Lisa (51:56.061)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, right, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (00:00.302)
Like, does somebody, do you come to Thailand for a stay at the Yatra? Right? No kidding, eh? No kidding. Yeah, yeah.

Lisa (00:07.25)
I would love to go to Yatra.

Right? The ice baths scare me a little bit, but outside of that.

Chuck LaFLange (00:15.438)
The ice pass art, like, when I was there, I think I was the only person who did them with any sort of regularity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course you would. Of course you would, right? I haven't done one since I left, eh? It's been months now, if you think about that. But yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd like to again, though. Yeah, yeah, there's a timing thing there. And he's got some, he's got more patience there now than he has before, since he got out here. So it's, yeah, a little bit tougher. But.

Lisa (00:22.45)
Oh, really? No, but if I went, I would have to do them. Like I, right? Oh. I should go for a cruise out there just to get in the ice bath. Yeah.

Lisa (00:41.17)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, it is like it's, you know, it's, it's that whole thing of like, you know, trauma is not only having a gun put to your head and thinking someone's going to pull the trigger, you know, like trauma, there's little T's, big T's, whatever you want to call them. But, um,

Chuck LaFLange (00:52.75)
No.

complex, all the things, right? Wondering if your brother's going to die, rationally or irrationally, right? I fucking imagine you did, right? And your parents, you know, like the things they've gone through, you know? Okay, of course I've had what is the honor and privilege of sitting with you and your family for a couple meals now. And there's some strength there that is I.

Lisa (01:01.266)
And I used to have nightmares. I used to have nightmares. You know, I would have, yeah, yeah, I would have nightmares where...

Yeah. Oh yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:22.19)
to say the least, right, when we sit and talk so frankly about some of these things. But like I look at your dad and think how much shit did he suppress to get through that? Right? And your mom as well, and like, wow, right? And then, you know, your brother's got a wife and kids too, and like so many people are affected by this, right? And what's worse,

Lisa (01:34.514)
Totally.

Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (01:44.69)
so many. And that's without even trying to think of it, you know?

Chuck LaFLange (01:48.078)
What's worse is we sit here and we point fingers and we blame and we stigmatize not just the person that's in it but the people around them but I'm trying to think how to verbalize this. Nobody gets a chance to fucking deal with it, right? And then when it's all said and done, it's never said and done. This is something I spoke to in a blog post a long time ago about my mother and this is a universal across the board.

Lisa (02:05.522)
Yeah, yeah, that's true.

Chuck LaFLange (02:17.71)
When I'm sober, it doesn't stop. For me, it stops. I get to be sober, and I get to live this, everybody's so fucking proud of me, and I started this podcast, and yada yada yada. My mom, on some level, is going to stress for the rest of her fucking life. If I don't answer the phone for a couple days, my mom is gonna wonder somewhere. That's gonna, over time, that's gonna mitigate.

Lisa (02:34.834)
Yep, she will.

Chuck LaFLange (02:43.694)
but somewhere that's always going to be there. That goes for you, that goes for your parents, that goes for his wife, ultimately for his kids. Right? You know.

Lisa (02:50.77)
To be honest, like I've almost found that like during periods of his wellness, sometimes they've been some of the most stressful for me.

Chuck LaFLange (02:56.398)
Cough cough

Oh, fuck yeah. Right.

Lisa (03:02.258)
You know, which is kind of messed up because it's like any amount of wellness for any amount of time is a good thing. But it's like when somebody is on well, there's, there's at least this, like you get to a point of accepting that, that they're not well. When they get well, as messed up as it is, you almost become more anxious about when and will it crash again.

Chuck LaFLange (03:09.23)
Damn straight.

Chuck LaFLange (03:30.318)
Yeah? Which is earned, which, and my mom said to me, I'll tell you what, the first time I relapsed after mom came and picked me up, when I came back, she said to me, I expect this to happen.

Lisa (03:32.242)
you know, and so.

Chuck LaFLange (03:45.358)
And it was like, fuck. It was one of the hardest things I've ever heard. And at the time, it hurt. It hurt. It cut deep. Right? I get it. Now more so than ever, because we're all sitting around waiting for a fucking win here. Still, it seems, right? And don't get me wrong, there's been some great long -term wins around me, and I think that's just about focus. But I get wrapped up in that, and that's not my kid.

Lisa (03:45.97)
Yeah, I remember you telling me that.

Lisa (04:02.13)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (04:10.798)
This is somebody else's kid that's been on the show or this is a friend that I used to use with or this is, this isn't my kid. Right? So like, yeah, I get it now. I get it now more than ever, right? But at the time, it sucked to hear that, right? Ah, that hurt, you know? But, and so now she has to, not only does nobody get to validate her shit, but she has to fucking worry about what she says to me because it might hurt my feelings.

Lisa (04:22.994)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (04:38.35)
You know what I mean? Like in an instance like that, like what the fuck, right? There's so much going on. I, yeah, right, right, yeah.

Lisa (04:38.994)
Yeah. Yeah.

Well, and I remember when I couldn't get a hold of you that time.

Like, right? Like it was, it was interesting. Cause I would say next to David, it's the only time I've ever had that kind of a reaction towards somebody that I was worried was using a relapsing or overdosing or whatever. And it was like the exact same feelings, you know, like I, and again, part of my defense system, like I literally was like, do I have to drive to Saskatchewan now? Like, is that what I'm doing? Like, do I?

Chuck LaFLange (05:07.598)
Yeah.

Lisa (05:17.81)
to go hunt his ass down. You know, but yeah, like you do, you're always, and I remember having that internal dialogue where I was like, you know, he's, he's doing well. Like he's, you know, he's, you've been sober for a while. Like you're motivated in your sobriety. But the reality is, is that I also know that that doesn't matter. Like that can be gone in an instant.

Chuck LaFLange (05:40.782)
doesn't. You're right. Yep. Yep.

Lisa (05:44.082)
Like you can have one instant, right? And also I think, cause I knew you were getting ready to go to Thailand. And I'm also very aware that there's that whole thing that people with addiction will do where it's like, well, you know, I'm going to Thailand, so I'll just do one last little hurrah, you know? And so.

Chuck LaFLange (05:49.038)
I was days away from leaving, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (05:59.214)
Oh yeah, one last hurrah. A lot of people have died in last hurrahs, right? And you know that as well as anybody does, so I can only imagine, right? And I've said this before and I'll say it again. To me, and the more I think about that over these last months, like that instance there, it's like, fuck yeah, thank you. I will never take that for granted again. I went years, literally years, where nobody checked up on me. Right?

Lisa (06:04.306)
Yeah. Yep.

You know?

Chuck LaFLange (06:28.814)
And then so to go from that to you and mom freaking out, I actually, you know what, my ride back to Moose Draw from Regina where I was at the time, I screenshotted a text from my mom and sent it to her and said, could you get your fucking ass here please? This is what my mom is doing right now. Could you get over here? Right, like, because you said you would be here fucking six hours ago. My mom is losing her mind.

Lisa (06:47.474)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (06:53.198)
Could you just get over here and get this make this happen? What I ended up having to do is I spent the last of my money every last dollar on an Uber to go to her house bang on the door and say take me fucking home. You said you would let's go. Because I had already paid her for the ride too right so yeah. I'll never take it for granted again.

Lisa (07:04.466)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, so I guess like that's, that's the thing is that I think more than anything is to acknowledge like the roller coaster of emotions that I think family members go through, right? You feel sadness, you feel anger, you feel hope, you feel hopeless, you feel afraid, you feel anxious, like, and, you know, varying degrees of all of those, I think, come and go.

Chuck LaFLange (07:23.054)
Yeah.

Lisa (07:41.042)
And I mean, it's exhausting. It's exhausting to go through, you know, all of that. And I think that that's the reality for family members is that they go through that a lot more than I would say, like, if you try to think of other circumstances outside of addiction, what is another example where a family member would go through that varying degree of emotions over the duration of time?

that this goes on, because as you said, even when you get sober, they still spend years like worrying about, you know, will it come back? Will you relapse? You know, whatever. You know, and I mean, I think certainly, I'm sure.

Chuck LaFLange (08:12.782)
There's nothing even compares.

Chuck LaFLange (08:21.358)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (08:25.422)
And I've said this before too, Lisa, but I'm going to jump on that real quick. For the person using, we get the break. We get the break. We get to go get high. We get to go do the thing that helps us not feel the things that we don't want to feel while our loved ones are sitting there feeling it. It's a shit deal. It's a shit deal. Right? So yeah.

Lisa (08:49.01)
Yeah. And you know, I never like, my brother was never a poor me kind of guy. Like he's never blamed us. He's never acted like a victim. I feel that sometimes like he should act like more of a victim than he does. Cause I think that, you know, there's a lot of things in his story that have contributed to where he's at. And, and I think he's allowed to own that some of that stuff that he's lived through has not been fair to him. And he doesn't, he prefers to be like, you know, this is

my choices and he kind of owns it. Um, so he's never been like, you know, yeah, totally, totally. Um, so he's, you know, I've never had him ever say, Oh, you don't know what it's like, you know, like you have no idea, you know, poor me kind of attitude, but I have said to patients, you know, particularly if I have patients who are kind of playing that victim car, cause that's not.

Chuck LaFLange (09:20.782)
That's a stigma doing that to him too though, right? That's what that is. Right? Yeah.

Lisa (09:43.218)
It's not helpful to you to sit there and feel like you're a victim. The reality is, this is your reality. And now what are we going to do about it to move ahead? But I have said to patients who I feel like are kind of in a bit of that victim head space that, you know, you're right. Like you're, your mom has no idea what this is like for you. And you know what? You have no idea what it's like to be your mom. Like that goes both ways. You know?

Chuck LaFLange (10:06.958)
No, right? Damn straight it does. Damn straight, right? And if...

Lisa (10:13.298)
And you were the first one that kind of like added that cherry on top of, yeah, the person active in addiction does have the option if they're using to escape all of that for a time and family members don't, you know.

Chuck LaFLange (10:25.71)
Yeah, yeah, right. And the victim thing, and I made a post about this a long time ago. Maybe it's time to repost about it. But if you get cancer, diabetes, cerebral palsy, I don't care, right? It's not fair, right? It's just not. But you have to do something about it now, right? So you can sit around and you can be the victim. And.

I've had those moments, I've had lots of those moments, I still have those moments. But, this is the thing about it, and I think people twist this when I say it sometimes, it takes away from it being a disease because you don't choose to have addiction, you do have to choose the cure. You do, and you have to choose to do something about it.

because nobody can do it for you, right? Nobody can force you into chemo either. Nobody can force you to fucking get a kidney transplant. Nobody can force you into a liver. Nobody can force metaformin on you if you've got diabetes or you're insulin. But somebody's gotta do something about it and it's gotta be you, right? And that's just our reality, so.

Lisa (11:36.882)
Yeah. And again, I do think that, you know, we talked about this last week in a day, I can't remember the context, but around how people react to validation versus when external people minimize, right? So if you're sitting there with somebody who's suffering an addiction and you're minimizing what it's like, or then the likelihood is what they're going to do is they're going to focus more.

on making you realize how shit this is. And that's not productive. So I feel like what, as a family member, we can do is not feed that, not sort of do things that get people stuck in this state of needing to prove to you how bad it is for them. But instead, if you validate, and this is true outside of addiction. It's true. I said it last week. I do this with my six -year -old. If you validate, like if you sit there and you say to someone in addiction,

Chuck LaFLange (12:08.014)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (12:18.414)
you

Lisa (12:34.066)
I can't imagine how hard your life is. I can't imagine the degree of suffering that you're feeling every single minute of the day.

They don't have to prove it to you anymore.

Chuck LaFLange (12:48.142)
Yeah, so we can move on to...

Lisa (12:49.618)
And then instead, the conversation shifts to, now what do we do? Right? But if people sit there and blame and shame and minimize and invalidate,

Chuck LaFLange (12:53.998)
Yeah.

Lisa (13:03.186)
All they're going to do is focus on proving to you how bad it is. And you're not going to get anywhere.

Chuck LaFLange (13:11.534)
That's interesting. And it does relate to somebody in my family who it's just like, if you could just validate that shit for a second, because now you've got me thinking about that. And it's like, I'm very fortunate that most of my family is like fucking amazing.

But there's a couple of family relationships. If you could just validate, could you please, please? And I've never thought about it before. But then I sit here and the conversation stops because you don't get it, you refuse to get it, you refuse to acknowledge it, and now I don't want to talk anymore about it. It's funny that you say that. Yes, yes, that person.

Lisa (13:49.362)
Yep. I feel like you either don't want to talk or you want to prove to her.

Chuck LaFLange (13:57.038)
Yes, yes, yes.

Lisa (13:57.266)
Right? Prove to them, they, them. But you know, it becomes about proving it to the person. Or as you said, which I didn't think about, but yeah, or you just decide, you know what, they don't get it. So that relationship's cut. And then how do you help support somebody and motivate them and be available to them if they have a moment of insight where they decide they want to get help if there's no relationship, right? You know,

Chuck LaFLange (14:21.646)
Yeah.

Lisa (14:23.954)
Validating somebody's suffering doesn't mean you're saying what they're doing is okay. You know, like you don't sit there and say, yeah, good for you for smoking a crack pipe. Good for you for putting a needle in your arm. That's not it. It's just to say to them, I can't imagine how hard your days must be. I can't imagine how hard it must be to live like this. You know, I can't imagine how all the feelings you must feel. And the defenses come down.

Chuck LaFLange (14:28.334)
No, no, no.

Lisa (14:53.042)
and then you can actually have, hopefully, a more constructive conversation, right?

Chuck LaFLange (14:58.286)
And if you can't, fine. The odds of that happening though are so much better. That constructive conversation. They drastically improve once you validate. I think it's interesting. I'm gonna have to really mull that one over because it's not something we've talked about specific to this scenario before, but I think that's a huge piece of helpful advice to somebody that's got a loved one that's in it.

Lisa (15:25.714)
And you know, again, I think it's also to be explicit, like it's okay as a family member that you're not always in that head space. You know, it's okay that you have moments where you're angry, like you're just pissed off that this is the stuff, right? Yeah. But I think, you know, if you're able to get to a place of being mindful of when you are in that anger state versus when you're not, and to recognize that like speaking to a loved one in addiction when you're angry,

Chuck LaFLange (15:35.744)
That's some shit. You've earned it, right? You've earned it, right?

Lisa (15:53.874)
probably not going to be helpful to you or them. And so feel your anger, be angry, but maybe that's a time when you speak to somebody that you're connected to through Far Canada, or maybe it's a time when you listen to one of these podcasts or, you know, do other things in those moments. You know, it's not always, you know, even it, and it doesn't matter how long you've been in it. It doesn't matter how much education you have.

Chuck LaFLange (16:12.27)
Yes. Yes.

Lisa (16:21.586)
You're going to have moments if you're a family member where you're bitter, you're angry, you're resentful, you're frustrated, all of that stuff. It's just that know where to go when you're in those moments. And speaking to the loved one in active addiction in those moments is probably not going to be incredibly helpful, you know?

Chuck LaFLange (16:39.854)
No, no, it's not. And you said it's not for you either, right? It's not at all. It's just gonna, it's gonna just pile, just a feet of fire. That's burning so hot, right? Yeah. Listen, we've gone on for well over an hour now. Fuck, we could do this one for hours, I think. But instead, we will switch it over to my day of part of the show. And that's the Daily Gratitude. So what are you grateful for today, Lisa?

Lisa (16:44.402)
Yeah, for anybody.

Yeah. Yeah.

I'm sorry.

Lisa (17:10.066)
You know, because we've been talking about the, and I know the show is very much geared towards family members, but today being very explicit and talking about it and thinking back to some of like my experience, I think I'm just grateful for this podcast. I'm grateful for Far Canada. I'm grateful for the fact that there are increasing supports out there for family members so that family members can feel seen and heard and validated.

And so that there is the support because I can say too that as a family member, you get burnt out like you get, you know, and I think that having these kinds of supports helps you not burn out. And if we burn out with healthy brains, you know, there's who's there then to help our loved one, right? So the more support there is for us to stay well, to feel supported,

so that we spend as little time as possible in those feelings that are not constructive. I think the more we are there and available to be helpful, you know, and there is hope, right? There is hope people do recover. You're a living example in this very moment that people do it. People do it all the time. But so,

programs that help families remember that and get through those moments of anger and resentment and hopelessness. Yeah, I'm just, you know, big difference from 20 something years ago, I would say. And so.

Chuck LaFLange (18:46.446)
No kidding, no kidding, right? I'm grateful to my mom. You know, because I just, as we're sitting here thinking, I'm just like, holy fuck. And she did, like our relationship was strained for a long time, right? For a long time. And where that shift happened and when that shift happened exactly, if I really thought about it, I could probably bring it back to, you know, a pretty specific time period in there, but I'm just glad it happened, you know? Like...

Lisa (19:01.65)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (19:16.302)
Our relationship now is next level. It's amazing, right? You know what I'm really thankful for? Just normal conversations that aren't about addiction and my struggle and my, just getting on the phone with my mother and having a fucking talk.

you know, about life and about this going on. And she's like, she's right into protesting and the government and all that stuff out there. And, you know, she gets right into, she's passionate about it. And we don't agree on every point, but I love just listening to her talk about it, you know, cause it's like some normalcy, right? And it's been a long time since I've had that with my family. So it's pretty cool, right?

Lisa (19:41.49)
Yes, I know.

Lisa (19:52.85)
Hmm.

Lisa (19:59.826)
sure, like not to speak for Mama Norma, but I'm sure she would echo that, you know, because for me, you know, we, we talk on this podcast every Saturday, but we talk usually for at least an hour before we record. And then on top of it, you know, other days and times that are not Saturdays. And you're just such a, like you're an awesome human.

Chuck LaFLange (20:13.838)
Yeah, we do.

Lisa (20:25.522)
your pleasure to talk to you, you're such a great friend. Like I can imagine that for your mom to have you back, to be able to have just regular conversations with you. Like I can only imagine that if I appreciate your conversation the way I do, how your mom must feel to be able to just have, you know, mundane, regular conversations with you whenever she wants.

Like it's probably one of the biggest gifts you could ever give your mom.

Lisa (21:01.426)
Hahaha.

Chuck LaFLange (21:02.542)
interrupted my gratitude and made me cry. Jerk. I'm not crying, you're crying. Okay. I'm also grateful to every single person who continues to watch, comment, like, share, you know, talk about all the things. Because every time you do any one of these things, you're getting me a little bit closer to living my best life.

Lisa (21:09.426)
That's right.

Chuck LaFLange (21:24.206)
My best life is to continue making humble living spreading the message. The message is this. If you're in active addiction right now, today could be the day. Today could be the day that you start a lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, pray, go to church, call the detox, go to a meeting. I don't care. Do whatever it is you gotta do to get that journey started, because it is so much better than the alternative.

If you have a loved one who's suffering an addiction right now, you're just taking the time to listen to our conversation. Hopefully you got something out of it. You just take one more minute out of your day and text that person. Let them know they're loved. Use the words.

Lisa (21:59.314)
You are loved.

Chuck LaFLange (22:00.814)
That little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings them back. Boom. Perfect.