239 DEVIN McGUIRE RIP re-release

Chuck (00:03.35)
Hello everybody, welcome to another edition of the Weekend Rambal on the Ashes to Awesome podcast. I'm your host, Chuck LaFlandre, and today joining me is of course my co-host, Dr. Lisa. How are you doing today, Lisa? Hi, I'm Chuck LaFlandre.

Lisa (00:14.389)
I'm great Chuck, happy to be here.

Chuck (00:16.362)
Good stuff, I'm happy to have you back, always. And for anybody that's new tuning into the show, Lisa is a psychiatrist who spent more than 20 years alongside her brother as a conscripted soldier in the battle against addiction and is now a co-host on the show for, well.

As long as the weekend ramble has been around, I think. So we're pretty fortunate to have her on. Next up, I have Attica J., who you might remember if you were paying attention to an episode just recently, an episode 151. Attica works in harm reduction out in Vancouver and has a nonprofit doing the same thing out in the Vancouver area. And welcome back to the show, Attica, how you doing?

Atika (00:55.811)
Hi, good, thank you for having me back.

Chuck (00:58.506)
Again, thanks for coming on. And Devin for his fourth appearance on the show. Episodes 82 and 85 were kind of a stretched out two part episode and episode 104 where he had to come back on and kind of qualify some of the things that might have been mistakenly taken out of context from the first episodes there. So how you doing today, Devin Welcome back. Great stuff, good stuff, good stuff. So I wanted today.

devin (01:13.779)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

devin (01:19.824)
I'm doing well, thank you. Yeah, it's good to see you.

Chuck (01:26.202)
and it's something I wanted to do for quite a while actually and I got sparked into it by watching a documentary called Vancouver is Dying, I think, do I get the name right on that one? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was definitely a slanted view to the good or the bad, whatever, but it was definitely a biased view about kind of the new look of harm reduction and how it's affecting that city. And again, I don't pick a side on that.

devin (01:36.428)
Yep.

Chuck (01:55.254)
but it really made me think about these two opposing views on harm reduction. And, well, I just thought I'd have you guys in for a conversation about it. So, of course, you both have dedicated your lives to recovery, right, in some aspect or whatever, and you both, both Attica and Devin, you put your money where your mouth is, really, at the end of the day, right? Like, you are. So, it's obviously coming from a place of love of people.

Atika (02:12.045)
Thanks for watching!

Chuck (02:22.546)
and all that jazz, but you have some different opinions on it, and I really wanted to take a look at those and see, just have an open conversation. So, where to start from here? You know what? I'm going to lean on Lisa here for this one, because I know your views on heart reduction have kind of evolved over time, much like mine have, right? So where are you at with the whole thing? Yeah.

devin (02:30.072)
Yeah.

devin (02:36.87)
Yeah

Lisa (02:47.815)
So first off, like you said, when you were just kind of introducing this topic, right, that these are these opposing views. I don't think they're opposing. I think there's, I think there's a place for both. I used to be, yes, like very anti-harm reduction. I'm talking like if you go back, you know, 23 years ago or whatever it was. I think it

Chuck (02:56.866)
Okay.

Lisa (03:11.11)
came a little bit from just a naive, ignorant place. That was very early in my brother's journey. And the people who were supporting him were very much abstinence-focused individuals. And for me, and I think I've described this before, but I just, I needed there to be an answer to make my brother better. And so when they told me that was the answer, I was like, I'm done, that's the answer. Because the minute you bring gray into it,

Chuck (03:29.887)
Yep.

Chuck (03:36.191)
Yep.

Lisa (03:36.538)
there is a lot of uncertainty and a lot of unknown and I couldn't tolerate it. And so I was very opposed to it because they were opposed to it. It shifted for me when I was, gosh, what year would this have been? Probably around 2010. So I had just started medical school and I was working with some physicians that worked in a methadone program and they were prescribing methadone and these

Chuck (03:54.591)
Okay.

Lisa (04:04.366)
patients would come in to get their methadone and I'd get to know them. And I was like, okay, you're married, you're raising your children, you're working full time. And it started to make me realize that maybe this is not an all bad thing for everybody. So yeah, so I just, I don't think they're opposing. I think there's a place for both. I am pro harm reduction in some ways and I'm also very pro abstinence focused mandated treatment as well.

So I'll just throw it on it there.

Chuck (04:34.706)
So yeah, you definitely are on both sides of that coin, right? Yeah, right, right. Well, you said mandated treatment, so I guess we gotta talk about that now, don't we? We should probably do it now, because you never know down the road. That was funny for me, and being in Alberta here, where the whole landscape is about to change in a massive way that way, what I found out yesterday from a guest that I'll be recording with later on today, actually, somebody you know, Devon, Amanda Stoller.

devin (04:35.148)
Mm-hmm

it.

devin (05:03.645)
Oh yeah, I know Amanda. Great lady.

Chuck (05:04.274)
Yeah, yeah. So she's gonna come on. She can only talk about her story at this point because there's still, like they haven't really released the plans yet. So anything we think we know about what's about to happen in Alberta, we don't. Right? Like there's some things I think that are kind of obvious, but we don't know what's about to happen. And I'm looking forward to the release, whether or not I like the results or not, we will see, right? But, well.

devin (05:17.07)
Yeah.

Chuck (05:31.57)
Okay, mandated treatment. Let's start with you, Attica. What are your thoughts on that?

Atika (05:38.307)
Um, so yeah, my position was basically into mandated treatment because I'm from Indonesia and where it's really taking it to a whole other level of mandated treatment. I mean, we have death penalty introduced in 2009. So there's not only mandated treatment, but imprisonment, death penalty, even for possession. So like strong.

position on war on drugs. And I would say that anecdotally, I've been seeing more crimes ever since 2009 related. Yeah. And because it's just a little bit different, like I wasn't in Canada yet, but what kind of changed me is basically my undergraduate thesis on

Chuck (06:19.922)
Yeah. In introduce, right, Jimmy? Okay, okay, okay.

Chuck (06:28.49)
Yeah, of course.

Atika (06:36.219)
harm reduction and basically my experience in the downtown Eastside first when fentanyl was new. So, um, mandatory treatment, I'm against the mandatory treatment. So it's not so that I don't support people who recover. I definitely support that decision. And um, I think there should be a lot more.

Chuck (06:40.526)
Okay.

Atika (07:00.399)
beds available and at the same time harm reduction just kind of like a safety net when someone's relapse because we have a mandated treatment and then they're going to come out right sooner or later they will be out and oftentimes they escape so what do they do when they escape it's usually either they score or if they're like free to go they may score again.

Chuck (07:13.29)
Yeah. Yep.

Atika (07:30.331)
And harm reduction is sort of like a safety net, just to kind of make sure that they're alive for their next attempt to sobriety.

Chuck (07:41.934)
I like that you said safety net. I think that if you put harm reduction in those terms, it certainly changes things. So in your opinion, is there no place for mandated treatment? And of course, looking at somewhere like Indonesia, I mean, I don't think we're anywhere near that, nor are we on any sort of slippery slope, or I don't think we would ever get to anything close to that. But as a whole, is there no place for mandated treatment in your mind?

Atika (08:10.927)
Oh gosh, it's kind of hard to justify mandatory treatment though, in terms of illicit drugs or alcohol even.

Chuck (08:15.858)
Okay, okay. And I don't mean to put you on the, yeah. Yeah, yeah, okay, okay. And I don't mean to put you on the spot, I'm just trying to get a sense of. So rather than say, Devin, what are your thoughts on it, I will say there was, I think it bridges over nicely. You guys are both coming from a place of caring about people, right? So, and I know your thoughts, and I'm not gonna speak to them.

Atika (08:23.861)
Yeah, no, it's fine.

Chuck (08:41.034)
Yeah, well, just go to it. Right. We'll just ask you, right? Yeah, what are your thoughts on it? Yeah.

devin (08:43.392)
Yeah, well I mean it is like a gray area and it's a sticky situation because again like who is going to make the decision on who's going to mandate that person to treatment but I do really believe that anytime there's crimes involved it should be. You should have again an option between jail or treatment and if you leave treatment you go to jail because again most addicts lack accountability. So all we're doing.

you know, with harm reduction and this type of stuff is like allowing these things to happen and brushing it off. It's like, well, he's just an addict, he's not a criminal. It's like, yes, but he committed crime. So maybe let's mandate him to treatment instead of sentencing him to jail. With that, we would need stiffer like prison sentences, obviously, which, and I'm not for, but I am for, again, to a degree mandated treatment. And I, and speaking as a parent.

you know, Brooklyn, my daughter who's 22, if she was addicted to fentanyl, I would mandate the shit into her to treatment 50 times. I don't give a shit. Yeah, I would, I don't care, because it's my daughter, and I would rather, I don't care if she hated me for it, I don't care anything. I would rather just do that as many times as it took and force her to be into treatment as many times as it took, opposed to the other side of it.

Chuck (09:50.879)
Of course you would. Of course you would. Yeah. Of course you would.

Chuck (10:04.386)
So is it mandated treatment though, if you have an option? Jail or, that's not mandated treatment, right? That's coheurst, but you know.

Atika (10:09.984)
Mm-hmm.

devin (10:10.993)
Well, you'll always, treatment, you'll always have an option in treatment to leave. Nowhere in Canada or North America, yeah.

Chuck (10:16.234)
Yeah, no, that's not what I mean, Devin. That's not what I mean. I mean the jail or, right? Like if I have options now, that's not mandated. That's coerced, but it's not mandated, right? Yes, yeah, yeah.

devin (10:22.498)
Yeah.

devin (10:26.236)
Well, it is, you still have to make a decision. So to a degree, it is still mandatory. You don't have the option of not going somewhere. And again, I think if you, again, this only applies when there's crimes involved.

Atika (10:31.011)
So if we...

Chuck (10:34.923)
Yeah. Yep.

Chuck (10:40.618)
Yeah, and that's specifically what we're on now, because you said it.

devin (10:40.94)
Because again, holding people accountable is really important, obviously, right? So, I mean, that's like a major pillar of being in recovery and being clean and sober, is holding yourself accountable, holding others accountable. So, most suffering addicts lack that. So, again, sorry, just one sec. And so, you know.

Chuck (10:53.514)
Absolutely.

Atika (10:59.472)
but...

Chuck (11:02.072)
Oh. Ha ha ha.

devin (11:04.212)
If again, try sending somebody to treatment and if they, you know, if they leave treatment then they should go to jail because at the end of the day they still committed crimes. Like

Chuck (11:13.194)
That's true. That's true. So I'll cut you off there David before you go Attica And I know you got something you want to add to that Lisa you were about to jump in with something and Believe would cut you off. So I want to give you your opportunity to speak to it

Lisa (11:26.462)
I think I was just going to interject that for me it goes even a step beyond what Devin's talking about. I would be very content with there not being an option. You're going to treatment, period. Like that's where I stand on mandated treatment. Now I don't think that everybody suffering with addiction should be mandated into treatment, just like I don't think everybody who has schizophrenia should be mandated to live on a psychiatric unit, but there are cases and I do this every single day. I assess patients every day and I say you know what?

devin (11:35.937)
Yeah. Let's.

Chuck (11:35.946)
Yeah. Oh, OK. Yeah.

Lisa (11:55.478)
you're okay to leave. And I assess patients other days and go, I don't think you're safe to leave, you're gonna stay. And that is like something that every psychiatrist in this country, emergency physicians, I mean, emergency docs are often the first people to certify a patient before they consult us to come in. And so we do this all the time. Why?

why in 2023 we seem to believe that addiction is this unique rare disease where we don't trust ourselves to do the same things that we have been doing for years and years and years around mental illness is beyond me. So I like I said not everybody with addiction I don't think we pick up a van and go around and scoop them all up and lock them lock them in mandated treatment somewhere. I'm not saying that but I do think that people with addiction that there are circumstances where

Chuck (12:37.448)
Yeah.

devin (12:38.706)
No.

Lisa (12:45.614)
have the option of treatment or jail, they should be made to go to treatment. So.

Chuck (12:50.146)
Fair enough, fair enough. And you really opened my eyes. Well, hold on, Devin, I'll get you to wait, because we're gonna give Attica her shot yet here too. So, it's my job to moderate all this, right? But Lisa, you really, you completely changed my mindset when you put it in those terms the first time, right? About comparing it to schizophrenia or something else. Completely, because when I heard mandated treatment in Alberta, this program was about to be the anti-mandated treatment show, right? Like I was so fucking, I was riled right up, right? And then when you said that,

devin (12:51.318)
Well, and especially like we've talked... Yeah.

devin (12:58.161)
Okay, I suppose.

Lisa (13:15.886)
Wait.

Chuck (13:20.459)
that exact thing completely changed me. So there is a difference there. Yeah.

Lisa (13:23.53)
And I know I want to let Attica speak too, but I want to add one thing. I was thinking about this morning as I knew we were going to talk about this. I've been working in psychiatry going on 11 years. I can think of three individuals that I was involved in their care where they were forced into hospital for mental illness, where by the end of their stay, by the time of their discharge, they were still kind of bitter and pissed off about the process. Three. By far the majority of people, by the time they are leaving,

Chuck (13:47.246)
Okay.

Lisa (13:52.154)
they are thanking us for what we did. And so, yeah.

Chuck (13:57.641)
That is anecdotal, even coming from you, but that's still pretty powerful numbers, right? So, okay, Attica, go ahead. What you got?

Atika (14:04.683)
Yeah, pretty interesting topic. I would be really interested to know like a randomized trial on this. I mean there's like, there are some

Chuck (14:15.939)
Has there been Lisa?

Lisa (14:18.226)
So actually, there's studies that support and studies that don't. But what's interesting, and actually, Rob Tangay, who's a psychiatrist here in Calgary, who I know that you're hoping to get on one day, he's actually just written a paper, co-authored a paper that's not been published yet. But when it comes out, I feel like we should do one and we should get them on here. And what it's doing is it's actually looking at all the studies around mandated treatment.

Chuck (14:24.494)
of course there is, right?

Yeah.

Chuck (14:39.179)
Absolutely.

Lisa (14:44.506)
to determine whether it is or is not. And I can also tell you that Rob is also involved in some of the stuff that's going on in Alberta around mandating treatment. What he has shared with me is that, yes, there are studies that say it works and there are studies that say it doesn't. However, the studies that say it doesn't work are studies where patients with addiction were basically just locked away. They were just contained. That's it.

Chuck (14:52.917)
Okay.

Chuck (15:11.502)
Okay, then yeah, then that's not treatment. That's, yeah, no.

Lisa (15:14.362)
That's not treatment. The studies where it showed it did work were studies where patients were mandated into treatment. They were contained, and I don't know if the contains the right word, but they couldn't leave, but they were provided treatment, trauma therapy, psychiatric assessments, medications, whatever it was they needed. In those cases, it worked. So, yeah.

Chuck (15:36.511)
So, and I guess we'll wait for the paper to come out to really jump on that, right? Because you've got to be mindful of that. But yeah, Attica, what were you saying? Sorry to cut you off too.

Atika (15:44.683)
Yeah, there's this really interesting study, a randomized trial. And if I'm not mistaken, it's from 2016, but it involves something like 800 participants, 818 with 410 and 408 intervention and control arms, respectively, and they have like a six sessions of

basically harm reduction intervention, and this is completely like voluntary, and they've been reduced rate of risky behaviors and crimes and things like that related to sex workers. So that's a large number. And basically I...

Chuck (16:28.179)
Okay.

Chuck (16:32.41)
That is.

Lisa (16:34.746)
That supports harm reduction, right? And I support harm reduction. I think harm reduction works.

Atika (16:38.939)
Yeah, it, but it's voluntary. So they don't, you know, they, they can choose. Right. And, uh, what kind of interests me is basically thinking about. If we can put them in jail thinking that we can charge them with crime, but we don't trust their agency at the same time, their self-determination, it's a little bit, it's a little bit.

Chuck (17:05.678)
That's a pretty, that's a good argument. That is, you're right. But, if somebody commits a crime, they're gonna go to jail, right? They have to have the option anyway, right? I mean, if they have the option to go to treatment, yeah, right, go ahead, Devin.

Atika (17:07.576)
Kinda conflicting.

devin (17:18.26)
Well, yeah, like an alcoholic can't drive, get in a car accident and then be let off because he's an alcoholic. So why would an addict doing property crimes, why should he be let off? You know, why does he get a free pass? But like going back to what Lisa was saying too, like again, mandated treatment, super sticky situation, but I agree with Lisa because

Chuck (17:27.818)
No, no.

Chuck (17:34.958)
All right. Yeah.

devin (17:46.536)
not all schizophrenic people need to be in the hospital, not all addicts need to be forced into treatment, but again, when people are in the depths of their addiction, you're asking an insane person to make a sane, logical decision to get help, and they're just not going to. Yeah, so you do need to remove them away from the chaos and the addiction and treat their trauma so that they can, if after four, five, six months a year,

Chuck (17:58.954)
I was about to find that reel from you actually. I was just about to find that reel and play it.

devin (18:12.472)
they leave and decide, well, I'm gonna go use drugs again. Well, at least we know they're making their own sane decision to go do that. Because when you're in the depth of it, you're just gonna do it, and that's just what it is, right? So, because I know, sorry, I know for me, like, I've forced people into treatment, and I've seen people, I've taken people fresh out of jail into treatment who didn't wanna be there, and somewhere along the road, they just get it. And they do wanna change their lives. And, you know, the intervention's like.

Lisa (18:22.761)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (18:23.338)
Yeah. And when we spoke about that and...

devin (18:41.496)
People absolutely hated it, hated going to treatment, but somewhere along the road, their sanity came back and they were like, oh, I do have an option and a better life. I'm gonna have to work at it, but it is possible. It's no longer an impossible feat. If you're down the downtown East side, the thought process around getting clean is next to impossible.

Chuck (19:06.114)
It just shut us down.

devin (19:06.136)
But if you're removed from that for a certain amount of time, at least you can end, like Lisa said, you're not locked away. You're working on your trauma. You're becoming a part of a community. Again, if they leave after that and they decide to relapse, which I mean, relapse is a part of a lot of people's story, that was them making a decision. And we as a society did everything we can to give them the option to work their way out of it.

Chuck (19:31.89)
And you're right, I was about to pull up the reel of you saying a lot of what you just said, so thank you for not making me pull it up and make that awkward while I searched for it. But, and the same thing I said at the end of that, or the beginning of that reel was, if you're dope sick, you've got two choices in front of you, right? One that's gonna make you not dope sick, and one that's gonna make you continue to be dope sick. You're going to pick not be dope sick.

devin (19:38.64)
Yeah.

devin (19:55.172)
Yeah, you were.

Chuck (19:55.23)
every single time. It's not gonna be about going to treatment, it's not gonna be about going to a meeting or going to your local harm reduction. It's going to be steal that fucking purse or whatever it has to be, right? Because I just don't wanna be dope sick, right? So that part, I have a real soft spot for people that are dope sick, not in that.

devin (20:05.372)
do whatever is the quickest way to get the sickness gone. Yeah, exactly.

devin (20:14.64)
Yeah, me too. Yeah.

Chuck (20:15.822)
I'm empathetic towards them, right? The first time I was ever exposed to fentanyl, there was a girl screaming and crying and rolling around in pain in a motel room. I'm like, what the hell, what's going on? I don't understand, right? So, and to me, that's just a human being suffering, and I don't really care what choices got you there. Now that sucks, right? So, nobody's gonna do that voluntarily, right?

devin (20:30.3)
Yeah, it does suck. But the thing is, is the people that I've worked with and have kicked opiates and fentanyl with no meds, no anything else, their success rate is like 90%. Like nine out of the 10 guys, maybe not that high. But like, it is high. We don't suggest people come off of fentanyl with nothing, ever. But there are guys that wanna do it, and when they do it,

Chuck (20:46.046)
Is it though, okay, anecdotally, right? Yeah, yeah.

devin (21:00.024)
their chances of success are through the roof. They just are, and that's not a study. That's what I've seen over the years and years of doing this. Yeah.

Chuck (21:03.571)
Okay. Yeah.

Chuck (21:08.866)
Fair enough, fair enough.

Lisa (21:10.43)
I think that probably speaks to motivation, right? If you're willing to go come off opiates and you're declining things like suboxone and methadone, it's like I just feel like you're at a point where you're like, I am done. Because I think the majority of people do want something. So I think, yeah.

devin (21:20.142)
Yeah.

Chuck (21:20.394)
Yeah. Yep.

Atika (21:21.839)
then it's a self determination though, right? So, because they just refuse that, so that's from them.

Chuck (21:23.902)
Yeah. Right, yeah, yeah.

devin (21:24.832)
Well, yeah, totally. And it's, yeah. Well, and it's a fear of ever going through it again. Like your fear of doing that again is so strong. But you don't have that fear when you have, you know, countless amounts of safe supply and harm reduction goods. So, and don't get me wrong when I say this, I support harm reduction, just so we're clear. I just don't think it's the answer, but I do. It's a major part of what we need to do.

Chuck (21:33.118)
Yeah, yeah. Which adds a driver, right? So.

Atika (21:44.219)
I've actually never seen...

Atika (21:54.463)
I think treatment and harm reduction has to go hand in hand. And I'm not saying mandated treatment. I mean, like determinants of health, like these people usually have a lot of trauma, like especially in the downtown East side, I have a lot of empathy. So they have a lot of severe trauma, like just complex trauma. And at the same time, I think we need to offer a bunch more.

Chuck (22:10.095)
Oh, I can't imagine. Yeah.

devin (22:15.664)
Hmm.

Atika (22:22.059)
all these trauma-informed treatments, but at the same time, like available beds, but at the same time, hum reduction, just to kind of like, make sure that you don't die if, if in the case you relapse, you know? And just, because they keep on trying to kind of be sober because it's not nice to kind of like shoot up every hour. Like no one likes that. I never seen anyone who actually likes fentanyl, like no one. So they just like, you know, it's more so about like keeping the

devin (22:27.588)
Absolutely.

devin (22:32.512)
Yeah, totally. Honestly.

Chuck (22:35.129)
Yeah, really good point. So.

devin (22:38.44)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chuck (22:49.634)
The... Ha ha

devin (22:51.265)
I kinda wanna argue that point because most people I know like fentanyl, but I agree with you. I agree with everything you're saying. That safety net is so important. It is, it's extremely important to have. And on top of that, listening to your episode, you're super amazing and you do a lot of really good work. So even though I'm gonna probably argue with you a little bit, I do think what you're doing is really, really amazing and there should be more people like you.

Atika (22:52.175)
variety.

Lisa (23:17.527)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (23:17.686)
There you go. So, and again, the mandated treatment is a small part of harm reduction, right? It's one of the, it's just one of the things to talk about, and to be honest, I was gonna kind of build up to that, because I knew it was gonna be kind of a passionate subject, but I opened it with it, so, you know, damn my programming plans, right? But, yeah.

Lisa (23:33.382)
I think it's easy to like put these things head to head and I like, I really, I feel like that a lot of good discussion is lost when it becomes a head to head thing, because to me, like I said, it's not one or the other. Like we've said, we always say this on the show, there's no one answer to this problem. And we need all of it. We need more harm reduction. We need more Atticus in the world. We need, I think we need mandated treatment. I think we need more beds and residential treatment programs. I think

devin (23:33.465)
Ha ha.

devin (23:45.252)
Yeah.

Chuck (23:45.546)
Yes.

Chuck (23:51.927)
Damn straight.

devin (23:52.166)
Yeah.

Lisa (24:02.926)
Like we need more of everything. And it really, like I'm pro all of this stuff because all of it helps different people at different stages, where they're at. And yeah, so I just think like the more that it becomes a this or that, I think that the conversation gets lost because I really don't think it's one or the other.

devin (24:19.977)
Yeah, yeah, totally.

Chuck (24:20.747)
And well said, really well said, we said. You're a very good bridge between all of this, and maybe more level attitude. Me, I like to watch a good fight, and I like to be a part of a good fight, and so it's easy for me. And anyway, let's be honest, I own the Coliseum, right? So if you guys wanna fight, I'm gonna have at it. I'm kidding, I'm kidding. I was very, very careful in who I picked for this conversation.

devin (24:26.328)
Ha ha ha.

Lisa (24:26.67)
Hahaha

devin (24:37.112)
Yeah.

Lisa (24:37.486)
Yeah.

Chuck (24:43.526)
And as I said to you both, right, so that it can't be, it can't get into a heated place, right, because you're right, Lisa, you're very, very right. There has to be some, you know, respecting of other people's opinions, so I don't want it to turn into that. I want this to be a conversation about all the things and how we can just do better, right, so, yeah, yeah.

devin (24:48.271)
Yeah.

devin (24:59.823)
Yeah.

Lisa (25:00.103)
Yeah. And to me, to me, Chuck, it's not even about respecting opinions. It's about the fact that it's all needed. Right. It's not like I don't care whose opinion it is. And I'm not trying to say what I'm saying because I'm trying to be respectful of anybody. I just literally think we need more of all of these things because for different people, these different things are what they need. You know?

Chuck (25:04.586)
Yep. Yeah, yeah.

Chuck (25:12.331)
Yeah.

Chuck (25:19.266)
Fair enough, yeah, 100%.

devin (25:19.312)
it.

Atika (25:20.151)
Yeah, I think with people from the downtown inside, I would say that I've seen some people who are who are from forced treatment who enjoyed it. Some people who are in forced treatment and they escaped. And when they escaped that's during the training of responding to overdoses. I was trained to really look out for those people, the ones that just escaped jail.

devin (25:33.548)
Yeah.

Atika (25:47.319)
or mandated treatment, as soon as they're out, they're probably going to overdose, like almost.

Lisa (25:49.998)
Mm hmm.

devin (25:51.864)
Yep.

Chuck (25:52.102)
Yeah, but now that said Attica, how many people that have gone through OAT or whatever, or gone through, whatever, that are recovered, are you dealing with day to day? You're not, right? So it's conversation, when somebody says to me, like a fentanyl user says to me, oh, methadone doesn't work because of this and this and this, how many sober people do you hang out with? You're literally only talking to people that it didn't work for.

devin (26:17.282)
Yeah.

Lisa (26:17.35)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (26:17.386)
Like how many people did it work for that you don't talk to, right? So because you're not sober, you're not seeing those people. And in your situation, you are surrounded in people that are still using. So, and not to say that you don't have many valuable people in your life that are recovered and contribute to what you know, but the vast majority of what you're exposed to would be people that aren't sober. So how would they know, right? Or you know what I mean?

devin (26:41.407)
Well and

Atika (26:41.495)
Well, because I'm responding to overdoses, so I actually am serving people who use drugs. Yeah.

Chuck (26:46.218)
Yeah.

Chuck (26:50.366)
Oh, I know, no, without a doubt. I'm just saying that, but it's kind of a skewed view only because they're the people that are, you know, oh, the worst of it. Devin, what were you about to say?

Atika (26:54.585)
Hmm

devin (26:57.6)
Well, it's tough too because the downtown East Side makes up for like, you know, 10% of the addicted population or whatever, or maybe 20%. It's a small, it's a small percentage. Yeah, but I mean, that's where the heaviest drug use is. And the majority of people are dying.

Chuck (27:11.291)
I think 80% of the deaths in Canada happened there, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

devin (27:21.148)
overdose are ones who live in basement suites, live at you know live in a house or have a car because they're the ones using it alone you know there's not there's not people around in our can then so and again when we have these conversations it always the perspective always gets pointed at the downtown east side but again that that's such a small percentage of the addicted population it really is yep

Chuck (27:31.37)
Yeah.

Atika (27:32.455)
Yeah, I agree. Yeah, that's good.

Chuck (27:45.5)
That's true. And what, yeah.

Atika (27:46.479)
Those that are living alone in the shelters and SROs, that's why I like to just tweet whenever I'm on the National Overdose Response Service when I'm on, because it's like, seriously, like I put it on the email footer, like if you want to use alone, like don't, like seriously, you need to call someone who knows how to spot you, because that's basically like Devin said, like it's like the highest rate of.

Chuck (28:07.558)
I want you to talk about Attica. I'm gonna interrupt you so that I can get you to continue on with that. Before we do anything else, I want you to talk about the Norris program, please. I think it's absolutely incredible, and a lot of people listening to the show would never have even heard about the idea, let alone this actual program, and you're a part of it. I'd really like you to speak to that before we move forward, if we could please, yeah. Yeah.

Atika (28:30.107)
Oh, that's so great. Thanks. So yeah, National Overdose Response Service is basically like a helpline, like a hotline for people who need a bunch of help. So if they need to, hey, I want, I'm so done with this shit. I want to go to treatment. You can call us. Oh, I don't, I, I'm seeing an overdose. I don't know what to do. You can call us. I want to use a loan. You can call us. Like you can call us for pretty much anything like that. There is a crisis as well. So.

Yeah, I got calls like for instance, like, um, oh, hey, I want to use cocaine or I want to use Benadryl. Oh, I want to use a Fent or, or if they're on Dilaudid, like they can, they can always ask us to spot them. And I basically would spot them for about 30, 40 minutes and then make a conversation, you know, oh, how are you doing? What was your day like? And things like that. And we're basically non-judgmental.

You're ready when you're ready. So basically our job is just to make sure that they're okay. And they're alive. And if they, and we have safety plan basically according to the person's needs. So for instance, someone has like a safety plan, like, oh, I want like my mom to get my Narcan and I unlock the door and we'll go into like, okay. We only dispatch if they are not responding. So if I yell out their name, yell out their code,

and they're not responding, then I'm going to dispatch emergency services. But yeah, or their plan. They usually have a good plan. So if there's like the plan that I'm kind of like icky about that I'm worried about, then I'm going to like, Hey, would you be okay if I, if I tell you to unlock the door and put the Narcan here instead of there or like, Oh, can you put the dogs away so that if there's an emergency, you know, people from ambulance.

Chuck (29:58.71)
Okay, or their plan, right? Or their, because they're allowed to have their self-made plan? Yeah.

devin (30:01.005)
Mm.

Chuck (30:22.902)
first responders. Yeah.

Atika (30:23.667)
they will not get bit by your pitbull, you know, so Yeah, but it's usually yeah, just tailored And it's free and it's free. So Yeah

Chuck (30:30.053)
That is wonderful. There's been a couple programs like that, but yeah. And what is the phone number or website that you got something else for us? I'll put it in the show notes of course, but for anybody listening.

Atika (30:41.027)
Of course. So yeah, basically all the calls that we got will be forwarded to me or any other responders at that time. So it's 888. That's a lot of 8. That's 888-688-6677. Yeah.

Chuck (31:04.206)
Okay, and again, we'll put that in the show notes most certainly, right? Yeah, yep.

Atika (31:06.371)
And that's, and that's just in Canada though. So there's another line for BUS and in Canada, they support French and English. So sometimes I respond in French too, but yeah. I think it's called norse.ca. Let me check. I supposed to know this. Yeah. Norse.ca. Right. I need my coffee.

Chuck (31:14.814)
Of course. So is there a website too then?

Chuck (31:24.086)
Probably. Yeah, you are. I could have checked what you were talking if I'd known this was gonna happen, eh? All right? Okay. N-O-R-S dot C-A. Yeah, yeah, right? So I think that's a wonderful thing. Yeah, I'd actually like to talk to them more about getting a little bit more involved and helping find some volunteers and the like, right? So yeah. I have one other friend that's a part of that. I just learned this yesterday that she volunteers for Norris as well. So I thought, oh, that was pretty cool. So yeah, yeah.

Lisa (31:33.604)
Hehehehe

Atika (31:51.431)
Oh, the volunteers there are so great. Well-trained, yeah.

Chuck (31:53.394)
Yeah, yeah, so, yeah. Where to go from here? See, the pinnacle of all this was supposed to be harm, or, yeah, go ahead, yeah.

Lisa (32:00.378)
Can I interject? Just something that came up earlier. So I feel like another thing about the downtown East side. And so my most recent trip out to visit my brother, I actually took my daughter and my niece to the aquarium. And I mean, I don't know my way around Vancouver at all. So I like stick it in the map to get back to the house. And where does it take me? It takes me the entire length of Hastings, right? West Hastings, East Hastings.

Chuck (32:26.21)
Ha ha.

Lisa (32:29.086)
I have never seen anything like that in my life. Like I wouldn't say terrifying, I would say devastating. Like I just, like it was like heartbreaking to me to drive down that street. Like, ugh, it just, yeah, terrible. But the other thing about folks that live there, and I mean, again, I don't feel like in Calgary we have it that bad.

Chuck (32:33.014)
Terrifying, isn't it?

devin (32:44.72)
Thanks for watching!

Chuck (32:53.014)
for maybe before you continue, maybe we should just tell, because most of our listeners are United States, right? When we say East Hastings, what do we mean exactly? Do you wanna describe what you saw there so that people have some context? Yeah.

Lisa (33:04.486)
So, I mean, it's an area in Vancouver. And yeah, I think it's one of the worst, you know, drug abusing areas in North America. You know, I think San Fran's up there as well. And I suspect it's climate related, right? Like it's an easier place to live on the streets than in a lot of the rest of Canada. But driving down that road for blocks upon blocks, it was just, I want to describe them

devin (33:16.258)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (33:33.73)
lost souls laying in slumps on the ground with garbage bags and dirty clothing and dirty blankets using openly on the streets. And it was just the sheer magnitude of it that got me. Like I mean we see that, we see some of that in Calgary, but the blocks upon like I was just driving and I was like when does this stop? And it was just so many people. I mean like

there's a community to it, like there, most of them are sitting in groups of people, but it was just the magnitude of it was just so devastating. But I feel like individuals in that area, like one of the things I often wonder, and again, like working in my job, I do have these conversations with, you know, similar individuals. I think a big fear around trying to do something other than harm reduction.

is they don't see how they can get there. They're like, okay, so I'm gonna go get sober, but I haven't had an ID in 10 years. I have no support system. When I get out of treatment, I have no money. So am I gonna come back and sleep on the street next to the guy who's still using? I can't afford to go to private treatment. In Canada, public treatment sometimes has like a six month wait list to get into. And when I do go, they're gonna help me for 30 days. 30 days is not gonna fix my problems.

So I feel like for individuals on the downtown East side, I think that one of the appeals to harm reduction is they're like, okay, well, this will hopefully help keep me alive. And the other stuff is not an option for me. Like, I don't believe that the other things are attainable or feasible, and it's just not, it's not gonna work for me. Like, I think if we could go and say, look, what if we could give you the treatment? What if we could say,

You know, you can have three months or 12 months of treatment. We're going to have trauma therapists. We're going to have, you know, addiction physicians. We're going to have psychiatrists. We're going to have psychotherapists. We are going to help you. And when you get out, we're going to have social workers who make sure that you have ID and you have housing and you have income, and we're going to help you. How many of those people would say, sign me up? I think a lot more people would take that if they believed the million issues they see in front of them would be addressed by somebody.

devin (35:59.161)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck (36:00.13)
Wow.

Atika (36:01.043)
Yeah, so with the downtown East side, yeah, it's more so like skid row and I Help people who are actually over there that you went That you drove by and just like this is like block after block. Those are actually where I will be like, yeah. Yeah, I actually go into the alleys and I would say that These people actually really protect me

Chuck (36:20.15)
This is your daily, your in and out, right? Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah.

Atika (36:29.727)
a lot of times and I've been homeless before. So not due to drugs, but basically because I'm first generation immigrant, but they protect me a lot. And I think there's a way that is more culturally sensitive into addressing the problem of addiction. So there is.

Lisa (36:30.675)
Yeah, I believe you.

Atika (36:55.219)
there's a huge population of native indigenous folks. And there's like this, and I think there is a space for us to kind of explore the culture and kind of being more culturally sensitive into it because there's a lot of intergenerational trauma, like you said. And yeah, in terms of determinants of health as well, I really like that point because

They come out and then what? And before then, I've seen a lot of people who like dealers. I basically know who are the dealers over there and what they sell, okay? But, okay, so they don't have a legitimate check. And when they come out from treatment, what are they gonna do? It's kind of neat like a...

Chuck (37:33.002)
Of course he would, yeah.

Chuck (37:47.48)
Yeah.

Atika (37:50.655)
social worker, a case worker, like you said, and just like make it really, really approachable. Just like make, like I said, more beds, but also more harm reduction and more social workers, more case workers and things like that.

Lisa (37:53.494)
Yeah.

Chuck (38:04.614)
I have to jump in with something here now, real quickly, just because this is an inappropriate place to say it. The Mission Community Services Society next weekend, or next Thursday, Thursday to Friday, is doing a fundraiser where they take 10 people to live as homeless for 24 hours. And they take away their ID, their phone, their everything, and say, now go figure it out.

devin (38:04.98)
Yeah, like, sorry.

Chuck (38:28.914)
And so you were just speaking to this, and I know, and I'm trying to help get the word out about this fundraiser, right? And actually, what we're gonna do is those 10 people, I'm going to do a five minute interview with each of them before they go, and then a five minute interview afterwards to get what they take from their experience so that I can help them for next year, they'll have something to draw people in. But you're so right, for me, I'm a privileged white guy really, at the end of the day, I live in Calgary.

Lisa (38:32.026)
Thanks for watching.

Chuck (38:56.742)
I had some family kind of helping me out with some of the things. And for me to get ID, like the stress of it almost broke me. I was so, and like I got it good relative to what the vast majority of the people were talking about right now do. And I was like, as a matter of fact, the last real anxiety attack I had with my trauma, like PTSD, was that day. Like I broke, I was like, what the fuck? Right? I was so frustrated by it all.

Lisa (39:12.057)
Yep.

Lisa (39:22.95)
Thank you.

Chuck (39:24.466)
I can't imagine going into that without the help of family, and a place to live for two weeks while I sort it out, and all the things, right? I just can't imagine how hard that's gonna be on somebody. So I think what they're doing, that fundraiser is just wonderful, right? And in a really good way, and I can't wait to see some of the results, yep.

devin (39:26.08)
Good night.

Lisa (39:28.451)
Yep.

Atika (39:38.191)
I love it when people tell me like, oh, they can just go into the shelter. I'm like, have you seen shelters? Have you seen like what it's like to sleep in a shelter? Like, I wouldn't like, you know, yeah, like I wouldn't even stay in there. Like I'd sleep on the street than like a shelter, you know, cause it's awful. It's like bed bugs everywhere. And it's inhumane to just expect people to just be in shelters. Cause honestly like.

Chuck (39:44.122)
Hehehe

devin (39:45.304)
Yeah.

Chuck (39:47.934)
Yeah, yeah, so it's be a great opportunity to see that, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lisa (39:54.243)
Yeah.

devin (39:57.366)
Yeah.

Lisa (39:57.614)
Yeah.

devin (40:00.388)
Yeah.

devin (40:04.313)
Yeah.

Atika (40:07.059)
I wouldn't even sleep at night on one of those shelters.

devin (40:10.318)
Yeah.

Chuck (40:11.958)
Yeah, right. Yeah.

Lisa (40:12.77)
Devin, were you going to say something? Because I did want to say something else, but you go.

devin (40:15.98)
I was gonna say something, but it was more just confirmation of what you all said. It's like, you know, people go into treatment for, you know, whatever, six months or a year, and then having those resources when they come out, because again, you're never gonna overcome a lifelong journey of addiction and trauma in like 30 days of treatment, or 60 days of treatment. It's just not feasible, right? Like, sure, that works for people, you know.

Atika (40:37.753)
No.

Yeah.

devin (40:42.464)
and never wanna like gauging addiction, but like people that like the beginning of their addiction, you know, can go to treatment for 30 days and learn from it and do whatever. But again, people in the grips of addiction aren't gonna go to treatment for 30 days, be forced back to the downtown East side and be successful. It is, it's like everything needs to go into it. Everything from like long-term treatment to again, the resources when you come out. Or else it's for nothing. Yeah.

Lisa (40:59.323)
No.

Chuck (40:59.514)
No, no.

Atika (41:08.864)
results just when they come out.

Lisa (41:10.976)
So, I have a patient in the hospital right now, just as like an example. And this is, you know, he's about close to 60 years old, Indigenous man, lifetime of addiction struggles. He came in because there had been some acute stressors that led to some suicidality. But anyways, he came in and I would say probably within a week or...

week to 10 days, like, you know, he sort of calmed down, the suicidality went away. Now I could have discharged them. He's saying the right things. He's not going to hurt himself. He's not going to hurt anybody else. It's like, great discharge. See you later. Um, I started talking to him about his substance use, what his goals were. And I said, like, where are you going to go? Like, you know, I can let you leave. Where are you going to go? And he's like, well, you know, like back to the streets every now and then a shelter. Um, he had, this man had not had an ID for 10 years.

devin (41:51.129)
Thanks for watching!

Chuck (42:02.379)
Yeah.

Lisa (42:02.542)
So I said to him, I'm like, so, you know, have you been able to like get a, get an apartment or rent a room somewhere? And it's like, well, no, it's like, it's really hard when you don't have ID. So he's got no ID for a decade. Yeah. You know, like he can't, he can't get a place to stay. He can't get any kind of even like a part-time job. Like these things are just like off the table for him. So I said to him, if you stay here, we'll get Jeremy, who's my social worker, who is the best social worker I've ever worked with, I'll get Jeremy on board. And why don't we do this? And so.

Chuck (42:10.806)
You can't get a motel room without ID, right?

devin (42:28.272)
Thanks for watching!

Lisa (42:32.046)
Then he's like, I said, can I get the addictions team involved in the hospital? He's like, okay. So now he's been in hospital with me for going on three months. He's voluntary now, it wasn't in the beginning. He's working with the addiction team who are seeing him three times a week. He picked up his ID two weeks ago for the first time in 10 years. We're looking at housing options for him to go. He's been sober this entire time. He now has off units. He goes outside, he goes on passes. He's not going out and using.

But I feel like in the beginning, if I had said to him, yeah, I'll just discharge you, he would have literally just felt like, you know what, this is it for me. Like, I don't get more than this. Like, yep, discharge me and I'll go to the shelter. And when you put it and say, this is the alternative option, we can do this stuff for you, he chose that. And so again, I feel like there's a lot of people in a place like downtown Eastside Vancouver, who I think are there because they don't believe there's an alternative for them. Beyond harm reduction.

Chuck (43:09.13)
Yeah.

Chuck (43:18.838)
That's amazing.

Atika (43:27.603)
Yeah, I think I've seen that there's a lot of learned helplessness that I really like to talk about this to everyone I've seen the victims of trauma. I also have a lot of trauma when I was growing up. But what I see from people in the downtown Eastside is basically when they're using, they usually like to talk a lot. And I there's a lot of talking to do over there. And oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

devin (43:30.736)
Thanks for watching!

Chuck (43:54.858)
I've watched some of your social media stuff there, your posts, yeah. Right? What is that called? Again, sorry, for the listeners, if they want to check that out. So, yeah. Okay, yeah, yeah. That's something to check out, right? Yeah, there's some short interviews with people in the alleys, and yeah, they like to talk, eh? Yeah, that's for sure. On Instagram, right?

Atika (43:57.755)
Yeah, yeah, it's a lot of talking. Solace in the alleys, solace in the alleys as in solace like wisdom or yeah, refuge.

Lisa (44:13.638)
And where is this? Is this like on Facebook or Instagram?

Atika (44:13.868)
They loved it. So I, yeah, well, I uploaded them on Instagram and they're like YouTube. So like basically some people saying like, oh, well, I got introduced to cocaine when I was crack cocaine when I was eight years old or things like that. Basically saying that there's a lot of reason why people are addicted to what they're addicted to. And there is this learned helplessness that sort of

perpetuated over the years that victims of addiction, they see that, oh, the system worked against me again and again and again. Why do I even bother to try? And I think there is a space for, there's a reason for self-determination, promoting self-determination and basically giving them, hey, what about if you choose just a little bit better this time? Just today. Just this time that you choose to use a clean syringe.

and just like incremental, like really slow, but just let them kind of build up into that, into that eventual goal of choosing whatever very good for themselves. So that's my favorite strategy to, so that they don't feel like they're helpless.

Chuck (45:31.274)
And then, it's definitely a workable strategy. Devin, what were you gonna say? There's something I wanted to go on about, but you were about to jump in with something. Must've been a lie, right?

devin (45:39.24)
I don't remember. I don't think I had anything. No, I'm just enjoying the listen. Just enjoying the listen.

Lisa (45:43.118)
I mean, one of the things that Devin said earlier though, is you're expecting an insane person to make a sane decision. And I mean, that's a scientific fact though. Like if you take somebody who's active in addiction and you put them in a functional MRI machine and you look at their brain activity, their frontal lobe is shut off. Okay, your frontal lobe is where you plan, you consider consequences, you think about the fact that you...

Chuck (46:03.146)
Yeah.

Lisa (46:09.446)
care about yourself, that you love your mom, you love like whatever, you love your life. It's literally not functional. And so that's where for me, that's why like I'm I am pro-mandated treatment in certain scenarios. Because it's the equivalent like, and yes, I'm going to say this, and it's going to sound extreme. And I mean for it to sound extreme, because to make people think about that side of it. But if you had somebody who had mental retardation, and that is still a term.

you know, intellectual disability, low IQ, call it what you want. If you had somebody like that and they were like, well, I'm going to go sit in the middle of the Deerfoot Highway and just see what happens. As society, would we stand back and go, okay, well, that's your choice, go for it. Or if you had a three-year-old, would you do that with a three-year-old? Okay, sure. Go sit in the middle of the highway. You know, that's what you want to do. We wouldn't.

Atika (46:50.955)
Well, there's...

Chuck (46:51.308)
Of course not.

Atika (46:56.548)
What?

Yeah, well, that's why there's a crisis intervention, right? And I really, the strategies basically just really talk to them. So I'm also in crisis intervention, basically preventing people for, from jumping off the bridge. And it's basically like, all right. And in the span that we're talking right now, can you put that knife away? And that's been that we're talking right now, would you step away from the bridge? But it's always so.

tiny just little tiny meaning minuscule steps that they can do just to make them safe and it's more so like a request most of the time.

devin (47:33.312)
Yeah, but the highway's not a knife or anything or a bridge. The highway she's talking about is fentanyl. So why are we just allowing people to poison themselves without intervening and forcing them into help? Is I think what Lisa was trying to say. We're not going to let somebody just go walk down the middle of a highway. We would probably put them in the psych ward to do an evaluation.

But the highway is fentanyl. Like we're just, we're not doing anything to stop people from using fentanyl. And again, it's obviously complicated, but.

Chuck (48:04.906)
Yeah.

Chuck (48:08.794)
And more than that, more than that, it's somebody who doesn't have the capacity. As you've both said in different words, it's somebody that doesn't have the capacity to not go on, to make a good decision about sitting on that highway. Unfortunately, their brain isn't working. So, that's tough, right? But then...

devin (48:21.121)
Yeah.

Lisa (48:26.578)
Yep. It is, it's complicated. It's, you know, it's.

Atika (48:28.895)
Yeah, because, yeah, I've heard, this is what I've heard from people is saying like, well, I'd rather heroin than fentanyl. Heroin is more last lasting and fentanyl is just like you have to shoot up every hour. It's like, I can't even keep my job, you know, and then, well, okay, well, what about like a prescribed supply? And then it's like, well, it's not the same high. And so I was

Atika (48:58.683)
offering a good high, but like a safe high that they, and at the same time working on the trauma and all the determinants of health and housing and paycheck and things like that, get them involved in the society.

Chuck (49:07.971)
Wow.

Chuck (49:11.458)
So, okay, now we're talking safe supply, right? Yeah.

devin (49:11.48)
Well, that, yeah, that's why I think safe supply is stupid. Like I actually do think it's stupid because for as long as opiates have been around, people have wanted the strongest opiate. You know, like even way back in the day in the States, in the hood, you know, dealers would purposely overdose a group of people to get all the customers. Like people, you know, that guy has the overdosing heroin. Let's go to him. So.

Chuck (49:37.59)
without a doubt, yeah, the reality of that business. Yeah, right.

devin (49:38.26)
And yeah, unless you're giving fentanyl to fentanyl addicts, the other stuff isn't gonna be good enough. And you know what I've noticed a big thing since like Safe Supply came out what? In like 2020, the market for morphine and Percocet and things like that is way bigger than it used to be. They are so readily available because people get them, sell them and buy fentanyl.

So like, because the guys I play sports with who aren't in recovery or addiction, they love Percostats, they love morphine. And their opportunities to buy it have tripled because there's so much more of it now.

Chuck (50:21.666)
But is that the, ah, but most of those street level drugs now, unless you buy it from a pharmacy, it's probably fentanyl, right? Like, yeah, like, yeah. Okay, okay, yeah. Yeah, that's true, yeah, yeah.

devin (50:29.484)
Well, that's what I mean. The pharmacy is giving it to a fentanyl addict as safe supply, and that guy is now selling it to other people. Yeah, and that's, because again, why would they take their hydromorph when it's not gonna do anything? They could sell the hydromorph and buy fentanyl and use the fentanyl, because that's what they want.

Chuck (50:47.702)
Yeah.

Atika (50:49.211)
I had a conversation with one of the callers at N.O.R.S., National Overdose Response Service, and she actually tells me that, hey, I haven't increased my dose in a while, and she's on a safe supply. And she's like, she always have a good time. It's like legit. I'm kind of like, wow, you're like in a good dope, girl. Like, oh my God, like I can hear it. Like she's just like.

devin (51:11.447)
Yeah.

Chuck (51:13.174)
Yeah.

Lisa (51:13.505)
I'm going to take a few more minutes to get back to you.

devin (51:14.781)
Yeah.

Atika (51:19.087)
God, this is so good. And I'm just like, how do you do that? And I think there's like, you know, like maybe we should educate people about like, okay, how do you use in a way that is A, safe and B, allows you to high without like, danger in you but you get like the same kind of high because she hasn't.

Chuck (51:22.006)
Oh, all right. Yeah.

Chuck (51:37.054)
Well, that's easy. You grow up with zero trauma and zero genetic disposition. That's easy, yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, right, yeah, unfortunately, yeah.

devin (51:40.169)
Yeah, and...

Atika (51:41.647)
Well, she was bad. Like, she was, like, irresponsible and everything.

devin (51:45.011)
And you're able to make a sane decision at the time too.

Atika (51:48.227)
And, but like now she never overdosed and it's easier to sort of talk about sobriety when you are not toxicated like in a, you know, in whatever drug that is. I mean, there's like a psilazine too, which is basically for horses, right? Like it's not even for humans. And it's so hard to talk about, like Devin said, like it's kind of hard to talk about sobriety and all these things that are good for you if you're fried. So how to...

Chuck (52:00.182)
completely but

Atika (52:17.563)
kind of mitigate that is also to give you what is kind of safe, you know, for you to ..

devin (52:21.604)
Yeah.

Chuck (52:22.382)
You're either high or physically dope sick. How do you ever get the chance to talk about it? Right, so that's when you get back to mandated treatment.

Atika (52:27.544)
Um, yeah.

Lisa (52:27.631)
Well, so, and this is, you know, this is more of a, it's okay. Just about, you know, this is just a personal experience story, but I remember, you know, over the past five years when my brother was not well at all, you know, times I would go see him and the whole purpose of going to see him, like he was not well, his life was falling apart. And like, just like wanting so bad for him to let.

devin (52:30.616)
But I agree. Go ahead.

Chuck (52:32.58)
Lisa, wait there, yeah.

Lisa (52:55.018)
us help him, like we just wanted to help him. And I would have conversations with him and I knew, like he's not even hearing me. You know what I mean? Like he'd, I'd be conversation and he'd be nodding off, his eyeballs would be going in different directions. And, and this is, and again, mandated treatment, but this is just it. Like I couldn't even have meaningful conversations with my brother. Like he was so out of it. And I remember him saying to me one day,

This was about two years ago. I remember him saying, I wish I would get arrested. Because he was like, I can't stop. Like I can't do this. And he was terrified. Cause I said to him, but then come, like I've always said to my brother, you can call me up at any hour. I'll come pick you up. I don't give a shit where you are. I'll come get you and we'll drive. Like, I don't care. I'll take you to the bush and tie you to a tree. Like we'll just go. And he was terrified. And he would say to me, I wish I would get arrested because he wanted the decision taken away from him.

devin (53:26.308)
Hmm.

Lisa (53:51.746)
You know, and this is a guy who had a family there saying, hey, we'll put you on a plane. We'll fly you to a resort treatment center in Thailand. We'll do whatever you need. And he was so terrified of that decision, of that journey of getting sober, that he couldn't grab onto it and wished the police would arrest him and throw him in jail.

Chuck (53:52.002)
That's powerful.

Chuck (54:12.438)
Wow, wow. So, yeah. That speaks, well, that wraps up the whole thing. Doesn't wrap anything up, so I'm sorry. It really envelops kind of that side of the discussion. I'm not gonna call it an argument, I'm gonna call it a discussion, right, about mandated treatment. And there's so many, there's, you just love how I'm trying to do the dance here, right? Yeah.

Lisa (54:13.368)
You know?

devin (54:35.952)
No, it's good, it's really good.

Chuck (54:40.03)
So, I mean, Attica, you've seen all of these different instances where these people could talk to, you know, make their own choices and how it's better for them to get there without a doubt. Somebody choosing to go to treatment or choosing to recovery is gonna be the better way 100% of the time. And then, Lisa, you see patients in your own experience as well with your brother and that, where it just wasn't the thing that was gonna happen, and of course, Devan you as well, right? So.

They said you said it right. It's not an argument, it's a conversation. And there's like, there's so many, you know, it all comes together. And I think we're all looking for the same thing at the end of the day, right? Nobody's trying to punish. Nobody's trying to, you know, make this a punitive thing. It's, you know, yeah, right. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, right. Oh, wow. So.

devin (55:20.997)
Yeah, we all want the same thing. We all want people to get their lives back and know that they're worth it at the end of the day. Yep.

One.

Atika (55:30.387)
this is really interesting but the I learned so much about overdose prevention how to reverse overdose actually from people who are actually not sober at all they might it's interesting they would not off no seriously like what Lisa said just like really nodding off and everything but when there's an overdose somehow they respond better than I would and this is just

Chuck (55:42.302)
Yeah.

Chuck (55:56.482)
This is true, this is true, my experience as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Atika (55:59.487)
You know, like I was in a safe consumption side and I was helping out on there. And I just like almost got like jabbed someone with a Narcan and he was like, no, no. And like the stuff was like, no, what are you doing? Like just oxygen first and then Narcan. I'm like, right. And I'm the one sober, I'm the one sober. He just did a talk like freaking two minutes ago. But it was true. And it's just like, there's, you know.

Chuck (56:21.249)
Hehehehe

devin (56:24.852)
Yeah.

Atika (56:29.155)
That's why I'm kind of like thinking about the whole self-determination thing. And it's like, they actually can save people's lives like that. Looking like that, you know, and, um, learn a lot, learn a lot from even, even they're nodding off like that. They, yeah. Yeah.

Chuck (56:36.322)
Oh yeah, right, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and there's gonna be plenty examples of that. All right, yeah, no kidding.

devin (56:43.056)
Yeah, and you're right because they don't, they definitely, people in downtown, they don't lack compassion. Like they care for one another. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. They still feel those feelings. But I think a lot of it goes back to what you had said where, you know, they just don't know any better. They don't know that they can have better. You know, they're just stuck in that cycle. Like you guys said, no ID, you know, no other options. This is just, this is what I am. This is where I am. So.

Atika (56:49.5)
Oh, I have a lot.

Chuck (57:01.644)
Yeah.

Atika (57:09.199)
There's a lot of education to be done. I remember putting an oximeter. So yeah, oximeter just like, is there, oh, I put it in the washroom. But yeah, it's just like a little device measuring your oxygen saturation, right? So I remember someone's like, really, I was so worried. Like he didn't even like, you know, he's just like on the floor and like he...

He's just so, he looked pretty awful. And I want to put an oximeter on him. So I kind of like, shh, it's okay, it's okay. You're safe, you're safe with me. And I'll put an oximeter and he just doesn't know. He's like flinch, he's like, what the fuck is that? And then I was like, no, it's an oximeter. Just measure your oxygen. And he's like, no, you're taking high away from me. I'm like, no, I'm not. I'm like, no, you're taking the dopamine away from me. No, like see, I'm doing it. And that's.

Chuck (57:48.696)
Hahaha

devin (57:57.41)
Yeah.

Chuck (57:57.986)
Ha ha ha.

Atika (58:03.003)
And then he was like, you're taking a high away from me. I'm like, you know what? That would be so nice if I can just oxymeter people and just take the high from them and I get high. You know how nice would that be? I would not have to buy doom at all. But so there's a lot of.

Chuck (58:11.086)
Yeah, no kidding. But so, to me, Attica, that is a perfect example, right? That's a perfect example of somebody who's just not thinking, right? Like that's not a sane thing to think, it's not a thing to say. So how can you expect that person to make a sane decision about their wellbeing, right? Like that's a really good example, kinda making a point there for Devin, right? You know what? Ha ha ha. Just ask him, yeah, right?

devin (58:12.193)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Atika (58:19.584)
Education, yeah.

devin (58:22.617)
Yeah.

Atika (58:26.097)
This

devin (58:29.703)
Yeah

Atika (58:33.551)
And so I would say that... That's why I was gonna say something about the education, right?

devin (58:34.352)
Yeah, most points go for Devin, but yeah. Well, and again, a lot of this, yeah, just kidding. No, no, a lot of this conversation, again, is based on the downtown Eastside. How many people do you think are down there?

Chuck (58:42.515)
Yeah

Atika (58:50.14)
Uh, thousands.

Chuck (58:51.009)
I wonder.

devin (58:51.244)
Attica, how many, you're down there, how many do you think, 10,000?

Atika (58:55.411)
Oh, up close, I would say like 6,000, something like that.

devin (58:58.996)
Yeah, so in Canada there's like 4 million people that struggle with addiction. So again, we're just talking about like a small tiny percentage of the addicted mentally ill. Totally. So like all these harsh extremes that we need to go to on the downtown east side shouldn't be used for other people struggling with addiction. That's so...

Chuck (59:09.118)
Yeah, the extreme cases, right? Yeah.

devin (59:22.112)
kind of switch topics, that's my struggle with harm reduction. And I, again, I'm not opposed to harm reduction, but we in BC have done harm reduction for 20 years. And it's created more addiction problems than it has helped, for sure. Because people who have, you know, I hate to say it, but again, a minor opiate addiction are now addicted to methadone when they just didn't have to be, right? So that's my struggle with harm reduction.

You know, there's a percentage of the addicted population that harm reduction is the best option. But there's also a mass percentage of people that shouldn't do harm reduction. That our focus should be on abstinence. But again, if we're just gonna talk about the downtown Eastside, I'm not gonna argue the point of abstinence is the answer. But I don't think it is. But.

Again, I just Googled, there's like five million people who are addicted in Canada. So the 10,000, you know, because again, in BC, we've always done harm reduction. The funding.

Atika (01:00:13.847)
but what I talk about.

devin (01:00:26.188)
The funding, sorry, the funding has never really gone to addiction treatment because there's privatized treatment in BC and there's everybody else who gets paid fucking dirt money to help people. So, I mean, again, look at Alberta. They made all their private treatment centers public treatment centers and their overdose numbers went way down. I think they've kind of gone up a little bit, but they did have success with it. So their primary focus wasn't safe supply. It wasn't harm reduction.

primary focus was treatment and they had success. In BC we just we have never done that. We've never gone like why don't we make treatment centers free for everybody. We just don't we don't do that. Absolutely.

Atika (01:01:07.579)
I think treatment should be free, yes. And when I talk about the harm reduction, I actually was talking about the systematic reviews, the randomized trials, which basically from parts of the world, it's not just downtown Eastside. And in regards to the numbers of deaths, there were definitely way more deaths before naloxone was actually free. So I was basically...

devin (01:01:33.524)
All for sure. No. Yeah.

Chuck (01:01:34.962)
Yeah, you can't argue with Narcan. Nope. No, anybody does I would tell them to shut up. It'd be over. Yeah. Yeah

Atika (01:01:37.807)
So, and that's basically harm reduction because you're essentially saving lives with a Narcan. And I remember buying 50 bucks for a kit. And I was in high school, I was like, the heck is this? So like, yeah, there were like lots of deaths and people died like flies because it was the first few days when Fenton was new. So, yeah.

Chuck (01:01:42.719)
It's.

devin (01:01:55.924)
Yeah, well, I mean, to call Narcan harm reduction, not so much, but it's a tool, yeah, for sure. But it's not, yeah.

Chuck (01:01:56.601)
But I think what Devin is saying...

Chuck (01:02:01.71)
Well, it's definitely one of the aspects of arm reduction, right? I mean, it's yeah. Yeah without a doubt

Atika (01:02:07.267)
Well, harm reduction is also about the clean syringe. And we had an overwhelming number of HIV prevalence before food syringe was introduced. Having a clean syringe should not be a crime. And it's better to have a clean syringe than using dirty syringe to prevent you from having HIV and things like that. And that's basically harm reduction as well. So, all right, you can use drugs and that's bad. And we all agree that drugs are bad. But...

devin (01:02:16.214)
Yeah, I bet.

devin (01:02:27.436)
Yeah, 100%, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Chuck (01:02:29.104)
Yeah.

Atika (01:02:36.587)
an incremental change is using a clean needle instead of a dirty needle. Incremental.

Chuck (01:02:36.887)
Okay?

devin (01:02:41.204)
Absolutely. Yeah. Huge, huge. And it's super needed. And it is a very important thing. Absolutely.

Lisa (01:02:47.922)
And I guess for me, yes, clean needle better than dirty needle, but holistic, all-around support and treatment and abstinence and recovery beats the clean needle. That's the next step for me. You know what I mean?

Chuck (01:03:01.334)
Every time, yeah, every time. So you said something, Lisa, a long time ago about harm reduction that really will help me to kind of move to that side as well or to support it more. When you said that to you, harm reduction was an opportunity for connection with people that are having a rough go, right? And I think that validates harm reduction unto itself for me, right, like right there, right?

Atika (01:03:02.745)
Yeah.

devin (01:03:02.902)
Yeah.

Lisa (01:03:19.334)
Mm hmm. Yeah. And that was.

devin (01:03:21.087)
Yeah.

Lisa (01:03:26.39)
Yeah, that to me is like the biggest piece is that well, one is key is keeping them alive. It's keeping them from, you know, contracting deadly viruses, so that if they do want to become alive or become sober one day that they're not going to die of AIDS. But I think, yeah, a huge part of it is that for like it's like people like Attica who are out there doing this harm reduction work who are speaking to individuals who maybe have no one else who seems to care about them.

devin (01:03:26.852)
Big time.

Lisa (01:03:54.186)
and to remind them that there is help available. And if you want to take the next steps, we can talk about what that looks like. And, you know, building that rapport, I think that increases the chance that someday somebody takes those next steps.

Chuck (01:04:06.258)
Absolutely, it does. Yeah, yeah, right. So.

devin (01:04:07.934)
Yeah, it shows them love and compassion, absolutely.

Atika (01:04:08.251)
I would know.

Yeah, like I said to this multiple people, like, okay, why do you even bother about learning how to reverse overdose? Or they are homeless, or if you're like coming over there, you smell like this really awful infection from their feet. But it's like when I reverse an overdose, especially when I'm just alone and it's really stressful, you see someone overdosing in front of you and I see them coming back alive and it's kind of like, oh my God, hello. It's like a rebirth, you know? Like, like.

Chuck (01:04:39.253)
That's why.

Atika (01:04:39.491)
This is a new life for you. This is like a chance for you to like get sober. And I've seen people actually like old and that's the first thank you I received. Usually there's no thank you, okay? Usually just letting it, no, no. They're very angry. They like do pushups and things like that. It's just bad, but.

devin (01:04:50.728)
Yeah, you don't get many thank yous. It's a pretty angry rebirth. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chuck (01:04:53.878)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Which, and I'll speak to something that Attica, you and I spoke about in our episode there in 151. The few times, and I know we are near the exposure that any of you would have been around, well, I can't speak for anybody, but the few times that I've had to narcannin to help somebody, there's never a thank you, it's a sorry. And that is fucked to me. That is, that's a mindset that is terrible, right? When you think about that.

Lisa (01:04:58.946)
Thank you.

Atika (01:05:18.275)
That is far.

Lisa (01:05:22.221)
That speaks to shame.

Atika (01:05:22.267)
I think so. I always felt, yeah, they're so embarrassed and ashamed.

Chuck (01:05:24.15)
Right, yeah, right. How about, like, I don't need to thank you. I don't need that at all. But, like, you should be thankful to be alive. That should be your first thing, not being sorry for making somebody save your fucking life. Right, like, and that's, the whole mindset around addiction, that's a really sad thing.

devin (01:05:24.547)
Yeah.

Atika (01:05:36.16)
I actually...

Lisa (01:05:36.646)
Well, and that's...

Atika (01:05:39.447)
Yeah, I remember this one person who is so old and irregular. And I remember he basically two months ago, he overdosed. And it was like at the curb of the street, like curb of the street. And I ran like across, not ran, like swam, OK? And then he basically said thank you. And he was crying so much. And

And usually when someone is old, I'm like, oh gosh, you know, like, I really want you to kind of be better, you know, like I really want you to be better. But sometimes like saving their lives is actually all it takes. Like he didn't know my name. I know him, but he didn't know my name. And now he's actually in recovery. He's like, that's it. You know, I was, I was putting a young woman saving my lives and my life and my life was almost like done.

devin (01:06:21.528)
Yeah.

Chuck (01:06:22.679)
Yeah.

devin (01:06:26.704)
Okay. Yep.

Lisa (01:06:26.926)
Wow.

Chuck (01:06:28.246)
That's a glimmer of hope is what that is, right? You know, yeah.

Atika (01:06:37.127)
And basically that's like his wake up call, like, okay, I'm recovering now. And he's really old and he doesn't have a family, so.

devin (01:06:40.288)
Yeah. And I wish there was more of that. Yeah, that's so amazing. And I wish there was more of that because I definitely got a whole lot more fuck yous than I did I'm sorrys or thank yous or anything. You know, so that is amazing. Wouldn't it be like, that would be the most amazing thing is like you can knock on somebody and they were grateful for their life back and then they wanted help. Because that's a crazy, that's an awesome story that I got. Yeah. Oh, totally.

Chuck (01:06:45.058)
Right.

Atika (01:06:52.631)
Yeah, it's a lot of fucking...

Chuck (01:06:52.667)
Right, right, yeah.

Chuck (01:07:02.775)
Bye.

Yeah, yeah, that really is, yeah. What the fuck?

Atika (01:07:05.643)
Yeah, it's fine though. It's like, it's fine. Like go be mad, you know, go be mad. But at least you're, well, fuck you. You're alive, you know, so go ahead. Maybe sober is like an option right now, you know? So.

devin (01:07:09.888)
Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And I understand the anger because getting instantly dope sick is not a good time. So.

Chuck (01:07:23.55)
No, no, right.

Atika (01:07:23.579)
It's not only that, they didn't know they OD'd, some of them I act, right? Yeah, it's just they wake up like, who the heck is she? You know? Like, hey dude, you had a bad dope, hey! You're just like, what the fuck is going on?

devin (01:07:26.288)
No, I know. They're super comfortable. And yeah, yeah. You know, yeah. I know, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Chuck (01:07:27.478)
Yeah, most of them just wake up, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lisa (01:07:32.07)
..

Chuck (01:07:32.458)
And of course, and in my experience, my experience, and I'm sure it's similar. Uh. Yeah. In my experience, they almost always ask for a hoot right away, or another shot or whatever, right? And it's like, fuck. You know, and it's, yeah, you know. Right? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

devin (01:07:44.716)
Yeah, you had to get out of the sickness, yeah.

Atika (01:07:47.259)
I always tell them, hey, I don't wanna narcan you, okay? Like it's an N word, narcan is an N word over there. Like I always like, dude, I don't wanna narcan you. Like you need to, you need to like, I always like oxygen first and then narcan. Yeah, they're like, no, no. I always tell them like, yeah, yeah. Like I always tell them like, hey, I didn't want to narcan you, but you were like,

devin (01:07:56.941)
I know.

Chuck (01:07:58.502)
Yeah. If you want to wake somebody up that's nodding out, say Narcan. Right? Oh, no, don't do that. Right. Yeah. I'm doing jumping jacks now. Watch me go. Right. Yeah.

devin (01:08:02.118)
Yeah, you just threaten them with Narcan. Yeah, yeah. You've gotta bring it up and they're like, whoa, whoa.

Lisa (01:08:04.588)
Okay.

Atika (01:08:16.283)
Really, really, this is like a bad dope. Okay, bad dope, I'm so sorry. Like, I didn't want to kill your high, but yeah.

Chuck (01:08:19.306)
Ah.

Chuck (01:08:23.31)
Yeah, oh wow. This conversation could go on forever, guys. I'm really glad. I think there's a lot of trepidation for me coming into this episode just to make sure I had the right people, right? Because this could be a very emotional topic for people, right? I'm glad that we do have the panel that we do. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Atika (01:08:28.111)
I know.

devin (01:08:40.716)
Well, and some people are so close-minded, right? They are, they think that what they believe is the right way. When again, in actuality, we may have a different thought process on how to get where we wanna get people, but we all want the same thing. We wanna show love and compassion, we want people to get their lives back, we, you know, we...

Chuck (01:08:57.09)
That's what we do.

devin (01:09:01.688)
We love people, we want people to get healthy. Just because we take a different route to get there, it doesn't mean one's right or one's wrong. Like I said, I have my struggles with the harm reduction because it's such a blanket thing when it just doesn't need to be. Bye.

Chuck (01:09:06.186)
Yeah. No.

Chuck (01:09:15.106)
So I think words are important, their wording is important, was aspects of harm reduction, right? Because some of it is necessary and absolutely one, right? So we have to be mindful. So when you say, I have a problem with harm reduction, you're gonna get phone calls and emails, right? Because you said that, right? I'm just saying, right? But when there's aspects of harm reduction that you're not okay with, that's a totally different message, right?

devin (01:09:20.48)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, dude, 100%.

devin (01:09:30.74)
Yeah, which I'm... Which I'm good with. Yeah.

Atika (01:09:32.987)
Thank you.

devin (01:09:38.06)
Yeah, 100%. And like I said, so many people, they didn't expect, this is like pre-fetinal, but so many people didn't need to be put on methadone. They just didn't, they could have gone through a weakened detox and then was never addicted to a pharmaceutical, but.

because we've just done harm reduction, you could, again, you could just walk into the doctor and be like, you know, I'm addicted to opiates, and they're like, well, here's a prescription for methadone.

Chuck (01:09:59.05)
Yeah.

Chuck (01:10:07.794)
See, and that's in British Columbia. In Alberta, how is it? Because I know in Saskatchewan, it's actually quite hard to get on, because there's only like three doctors in the whole damn province or something that were able to prescribe. So it was actually quite a process to get there, right? So how is it in Alberta? How easy is it to?

Atika (01:10:18.679)
It's actually kinda hard over here.

Lisa (01:10:23.554)
I think it's pretty easy, you know, and I actually find that, and I mean, I work in the hospital, I don't work in the community, and I used to work at opioid dependency program doing psychiatric assessments, but it's been a few years since I did that now. But I find that they're pretty lenient with giving it. Now granted, all the patients I'm seeing, you know, have been drug tested, we've confirmed that they're actually, they do have opiates in their system.

Chuck (01:10:25.547)
Yeah. Okay.

Chuck (01:10:45.42)
Okay.

Lisa (01:10:51.042)
But it's not uncommon for me to have to like discuss the case with the addiction doc who's doing the prescribing and be like, look, like every time I try to go see this person, I like they're like snowed, like they're fast asleep, like I'm constantly having to wake them up. Like, should we be reassessing their dose or should we split their dose? So they're getting some in the morning and some in the night or whatever. But I think, and I think it is rooted in harm reduction. I think they're like, well, we would rather make them a little bit sleepy, especially in the early days.

than have them walk out and go use, which I also don't disagree with. Like I think there is a time where it's, you know, especially in the early days, like, yeah, I'd rather you sleep. You sleep and stay off fentanyl. And I'm OK with that right now. But no, I don't think it's hard. And like you can walk into the opioid dependency program in Calgary any day. You don't need an appointment. You don't need a referral. You will be seen. You can get a prescription. You know, so it's a lot easier than it used to be.

Chuck (01:11:32.898)
Yeah.

Lisa (01:11:49.518)
You know, I remember my brother having to drive like five hours to find a physician who could prescribe him suboxone. Because he couldn't find anybody, you know, this was when he lived up in Grand Prairie and he had used to have to drive to Red Deer because he couldn't find a doctor who could prescribe. And he used to do this with his wife and his kids, you know, which is such shit.

devin (01:11:50.009)
Yeah.

Chuck (01:11:57.483)
No kidding.

Chuck (01:12:05.418)
Wow, Jesus, that's a long drive. Yeah.

devin (01:12:08.858)
And now so

devin (01:12:13.157)
And yeah, that's crazy. Suboxone is now the easiest thing to get. It is by far the easiest. I think almost every general doctor can write a prescription for suboxone. It's so easy to get. And it should be because that's a good option.

Chuck (01:12:28.958)
Yeah, yeah, most certainly, most certainly.

Lisa (01:12:30.134)
Yeah, you don't need a special license to prescribe Suboxone anymore. You used to. You used to have to take a course and whatever, and you don't need to do that anymore, which I'm good with.

devin (01:12:32.636)
No. Yeah. No.

Chuck (01:12:39.53)
And that's just relative to the scope of the problem. Jesus, if you made it hard, there's so much of it. For myself, I guess none of you would have been, yeah, you wouldn't have had those experiences, because, Devin, you've been sober for 20 years or something. No? 18, yeah, okay. And of course, the two of you never had that journey. For myself, what happened with fentanyl, it was the craziest thing.

devin (01:12:47.195)
Yeah.

Atika (01:12:47.33)
Yeah, don't make it hard.

devin (01:12:56.552)
Yeah, 18. Yeah. Yeah, about 18.

Chuck (01:13:07.326)
five years ago, six years ago, so probably eight years ago in BC, right, because you guys are ahead of us a little bit that way, but there was ups and downs, right? As a cocaine user, crack user, I had literally never seen heroin in 20 some odd years of being very heavily in the business. I had never seen heroin. I wouldn't even talk to people, not because I wouldn't, but because you would never have occasion to talk to somebody that was using heroin, or even hydromorph, when it became, you know, the beads and all that.

there were two very different worlds, cocaine, like ups and downs. And then something happened when fentanyl came around. The COVID thing, of course, was affecting the drug market, so there's all sorts of different theories on it. But all of a sudden, in what seemed like two months, the entire, where I was in Regina, the entire city was on fentanyl.

It just swept through. And people that were doing coke were now doing fentanyl. And it was like, it was this crazy thing. And now you have fentanyl and meth together, which you've all heard me say before, it's this perfect storm. One drug people do anything for and another drug keep them awake two weeks at a time doing it. It's created this horrible shit life out there. The violence is out of control and all the things. Of course we can all see that in the news, but.

Atika (01:13:56.651)
It's scary.

devin (01:13:59.375)
Yeah.

devin (01:14:06.07)
Yeah.

Atika (01:14:17.256)
Fentanyl is not really long lasting so that's why they like to

Chuck (01:14:20.19)
No, no, but I know. So you have one drug that they'll do anything for, that's the one, right? And then you have meth, keep them awake for two weeks doing it, right? So that's where the problem comes in, right? So you combine the two drugs together, it's a hell out there now, right? It's the level of violence that's gone through the roof, that's where all my traumas come from anyway, you know? It's a totally different landscape than it ever was, right? And let's jump into a crazy another topic now because I'm on a rant.

Atika (01:14:31.059)
Math, math. It's a money maker.

Ahem.

devin (01:14:41.005)
Yeah.

Lisa (01:14:49.196)
I'm sorry.

Chuck (01:14:50.458)
So the first time I went to a 12-step AA instead of NA, because where I was at the time, they didn't have seven days a week, so I tried going to the AA for the couple days that they didn't have an NA meeting, and I looked around and I went, I feel like I'm at a swap meet with my grandpa right now. Like there's a bunch of 90-year-olds in here, and I thought, not one of you can relate to what's going on in the world right now. Not one of you, because it's changed so drastically.

Lisa (01:14:52.454)
I like your rants.

devin (01:14:54.407)
Yeah.

Chuck (01:15:18.882)
I'll say it, if you've been sober for five years, you really don't, you haven't lived it yet. In your industries, it's different because you guys are around it all the time, right? So it's, you know, you get to see the effects of, and quite often, you know, experience the shit that goes alongside it, right? But for me, when I walked into an NEA meeting, it was like, I can't, like, I don't relate to any of you here, right, because the world has changed so much.

Lisa (01:15:39.25)
Mm-hmm.

devin (01:15:40.052)
Yeah. Which is too bad because, well, at the end of the day, addiction is addiction. It doesn't matter if it's sex, gambling, fentanyl, cocaine, addiction is addiction. 100%, yeah. But at the time, yeah.

Chuck (01:15:47.766)
And you're right, I understand that now with the benefit of hindsight and a ton more knowledge, but at the time it was like, yeah, no, I'm just gonna wait it out for NA tomorrow, I'm not gonna bother with this today. And even then, most of the people in that room have been sober for so long that it's like, fuck, you don't even see what's going on, like you have no idea.

Atika (01:15:48.184)
Yeah.

devin (01:15:56.733)
Yeah.

devin (01:16:05.748)
Yeah, totally.

Atika (01:16:06.743)
I know, I talked to some of the people that, you know, like the supervisors and things like that, like the higher ups, they usually been sober for a long time and they were there when Fent first came out and they're like, wow, like I'm so happy I was an addict like long time ago rather than today because this is so nasty. And I was thinking, yeah, it was. And it was just like, I remember just like everyone like.

Chuck (01:16:24.386)
Fuck yeah, right? And it happened overnight, right? Like, mm-hmm.

devin (01:16:24.564)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Atika (01:16:32.919)
it's so easy to see that people were turning blue and I was in high school and I just like, oh my goodness and it cost me like 50 bucks to like save a person's life. I was in high school, you know, so it was just like, oh my, and people were scared and I remember that. So now people like, if I reverse an overdose, people like, no, I don't wanna go to the hospital. You know, but back then people would, they were so scared, they're scared shitless because what is this? Like.

devin (01:16:43.504)
So growth, yeah. Yeah.

Chuck (01:16:44.63)
Isn't that crazy, right? And to think about, but I guess, oh.

Chuck (01:16:54.846)
Yeah.

Atika (01:17:01.163)
like overdose like went up after fentanyl so

Chuck (01:17:01.367)
Yeah.

devin (01:17:01.851)
They weren't that scared.

Chuck (01:17:03.894)
Yeah.

devin (01:17:06.78)
But they weren't that scared, they were excited. And that's just what it is, it's the way it's always been with opiates. Whatever is the strongest opiate is gonna be the most popular, that's just what it is. That will never change. So, yeah. Yeah, yeah, probably, yeah, yeah. Yeah. People as a whole, like addiction as a whole, they weren't scared, it was an exciting time. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, the over, yeah, yeah.

Chuck (01:17:12.471)
Yep.

Chuck (01:17:18.494)
I think she meant scared after the overdose as opposed to, yeah, not scared of the drug itself, right? Because you're right, you're right, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, anyway, anyway. Well, again, we could go on for a long time here. I think it's a good time to kind of wrap up the episode, though.

Atika (01:17:28.623)
Now I'm talking about like the, yeah.

Chuck (01:17:42.37)
This conversation's not over either, I would say. Most certainly. You guys are both great guests and welcome on the show anytime. Probably tasking you in the near future again, I'm sure. So, and Lisa, of course, every week you go wonderful. So, it's funny, Lisa, I'm gonna toot your horn for a second. I talk about you often when I'm describing the show to people, and I gotta tell you, we are blessed that you donate your time to us the way that you do, and that you're so regular about it, and we are very, very lucky. Very, very lucky, and thank you.

devin (01:17:44.462)
Hahaha

devin (01:17:48.432)
Thank you.

devin (01:17:53.944)
Yeah. Hehehehe.

devin (01:18:10.032)
Absolutely.

Lisa (01:18:12.559)
You're very welcome. I've said this before, Chuck, but for me, I look forward to this every week. I feel like this is one part of my week that I feel like is for me. I'm busy with work, I'm busy being a mom.

Chuck (01:18:18.55)
Hehehehe

Lisa (01:18:29.186)
And I like, I'm so thankful for you guys. And I've said many times, you know, I wish that I had known a community like this 20 years ago. Like I know how much it would have helped me and it would have helped my family. And by extension, maybe help my brother. But so I just think about the people out there who are still, you know, just needing that support. And I have no doubt that this show can help so many people. So I'm glad to be a part of it.

Chuck (01:18:57.014)
Thank you. Thank you for that. Did your mom tell you that I talked to her?

Lisa (01:19:01.318)
She did, she told me that you had messaged, but I didn't get any details.

Chuck (01:19:05.422)
I was like, who is this person? Who are you? And I didn't, so through the Chuck LaFlandre Facebook profile, I just invite everybody to be my friend, right, because it's about exposure and all that. And I invited your mom, I didn't even realize it. So then she said hi to me.

Lisa (01:19:17.02)
Ah.

Chuck (01:19:18.634)
And I was like, who the fuck is this? I had no idea. I did not say it like that. And I'm really glad I didn't when I figured out who it was. So we had a bit of a conversation there. I invited her to come on the show eventually. So maybe one of these days she'll jump in for Family Friday and we'll get to get her experiences as well. Attica, you've got the J Initiative, that's your nonprofit. You've got Solace in the, J Healthcare Initiative, okay.

devin (01:19:21.459)
I hope you said it like that too.

Lisa (01:19:32.998)
Yeah.

devin (01:19:34.105)
Hehehe

Atika (01:19:41.551)
Mm-hmm, to healthcare initiative. Yeah.

Chuck (01:19:45.434)
And the website for that is JInitiative though, isn't it? JInitiative.org? org? Yeah, okay, okay. Okay. Solace in the Alley, how are people gonna find that? Again, I'll put this all in the show notes, but we gotta have it set, right?

Atika (01:19:48.971)
Yeah, dot org, yeah. J dash initiative dot org.

Atika (01:19:58.679)
Mmm, the Instagram, so listen to the allies. Actually been like kind of pausing that project, but excited to also. Oh my God, lots of conversation. People there just love to talk.

Chuck (01:20:00.914)
Okay, okay.

Chuck (01:20:05.422)
But there's still a ton of content there to look at though. So I watched a bunch of it there that day. It was, yeah, it's pretty cool. It's really cool. It leaves me inspired for, we have, you know, on the 31st coming up here, it's a national overdose awareness day. I would, it leaves me inspired about what I'd like to do downtown Calgary. So, you know, and maybe get out there and have some of those similar conversations, right? So at least I hope you got the 31st off because that's definitely something we want to do here in Calgary, right? You know? Yeah.

Lisa (01:20:33.38)
Yeah. Hey, I'll make it work. I'll join you for anything.

Chuck (01:20:35.014)
Yeah, awesome, okay. And on that note, hey, to the listeners, guys, it is National Overdose Awareness, you know, the purple rhythms, purple ribbons are there for August 31st. Pay attention, you know, I don't know, help out with a cause somewhere in your community.

do something, at least just pay attention, you know, if nothing else. The people we lose are so much more than a statistic or how they passed. So, you know, we gotta keep that in mind and we gotta keep doing what we can do to spread that message, so, yeah. Overdose, or I'm sorry, Memorial Mondays are back. I took a bit of a break from doing them, partially because we're into video episodes now, so it kinda changes the dynamic, how to do that. Also because of the time that goes into video.

We're only doing three episodes a week now, and I have spent more time editing than ever before. Not a week's gone by, I haven't had to pull an all-nighter since we got into video. So doing the six episodes a week was just simply not sustainable. I'm glad that they're back now, so pay attention. They'll be about every third week is what we're kind of doing that way. Kind of rotating through the other aspects of the show week to week. We did just put one out this last Monday. They will continue to come out.

That brings us to my favorite part of the show, that's the Daily Gratitudes. We'll do the thing, edit, edit. Devin, what you got? You got a couple for us today?

devin (01:21:54.161)
Well, I'm just always forever grateful for the guys that I work with, you know, the clients that are in the house. That is and will always be my happy place. So I'm grateful for all of them.

Chuck (01:22:04.234)
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, great, great. Arka, what do you got?

Atika (01:22:09.663)
I am grateful that I have the opportunity to talk to all of you this morning.

Chuck (01:22:15.114)
Ah, and we are as well. But that's the thing about daily gratitude. Often I have a guest on and they're trying to come up with these grandiose kind of things they should be grateful for. Sometimes it's for a cup of coffee and sometimes it's for a conversation. This thing about daily gratitude is just find something to be grateful for, right? Yeah, oh yay, that's, see? Yeah, oh geez. There you go, your people, okay.

Atika (01:22:17.147)
It was so cheesy!

devin (01:22:18.224)
Eww. Hehehehe.

Lisa (01:22:18.97)
I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.

Atika (01:22:20.987)
Thank you.

Atika (01:22:32.671)
Oh, and I'm gonna go to the hood today, so excited. The downtown East side, my folks, yeah.

devin (01:22:36.728)
Hehehe

Chuck (01:22:43.043)
Lisa, you got a couple for us. I know what your first one is. So what's it? What do you got? Yeah

Lisa (01:22:46.827)
Always, always the same. My brother is about nine days shy of five months over right now. And I am grateful for my brother. For him fighting, that's what I'm grateful for, because I know it's not easy. And he's fighting and he's trying and yeah, that's what I'm grateful for. There's nothing better in my life than when my brother's well.

Chuck (01:22:53.512)
Amen.

Chuck (01:23:15.061)
Jesus, almost made it through an episode, you fucker.

Lisa (01:23:17.25)
Hahaha

Atika (01:23:18.368)
Aww, it's not an episode of you don't cry.

devin (01:23:20.128)
Mm-hmm. Heh heh heh. Yeah.

Lisa (01:23:21.933)
Ha!

Chuck (01:23:22.75)
right? Fuck sakes. Okay. Anyway. Oh. And I'm grateful for all of you for sure, most certainly. You know what? The other day I, as I was building the new website, oh yeah, let's just check that out too, a2apodcast.com, that's A number two, A podcast. I was building those profile pages and of course all of you guys are on it, right? So I kind of took the screenshot of these profile pages and was looking at it and going, holy shit, like where the show started?

and where it's at now, and I'm looking at all of you and the other, my other co-hosts, and I was just completely awestruck by where this show has come to from where it started, and I could not be more grateful, right? So, and the final gratitude goes to the listeners. Always to you guys, listeners. If you are on Spotify, drop a comment. If you are on...

Apple, do the review and the ratings process please. Wherever you are, if you're seeing the logo, we're on all the social medias, drop a like, a comment, do whatever you can please. Anytime you do any one of these things, you are getting me a little bit closer to living my best life. My best life is to make a humble living spreading the message, the message is this. If you are in active addiction right now, today could be the day, today could be the day to start that lifelong journey.

Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call into detox, go to a meeting, do whatever the hell you need to do because it is so much better than the alternative. And if you are the loved one of somebody who's suffering an addiction right now, just taking the time to listen to our show and for that I'm very, very grateful. If you just take one more minute, text that person, let them know they are loved. Use the words.

Lisa (01:24:55.883)
You are loved.

devin (01:24:56.2)
You are loved.

Atika (01:24:56.64)
You are loved.

Chuck (01:24:59.333)
That little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings him back. Oh that time it went real. I like that. I'm gonna

devin (01:25:02.483)
Thanks for watching!