250 - RYAN BATHGATE

Chuck LaFLange (00:00.694)
Hello everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds. Welcome to another episode of the Ash is Awesome podcast. I'm in Krabi, Thailand and of course, halfway around the world is my good friend and co -host, back from the dead if you will, Ryan Bathgate I can do it today, Ryan.

Ryan Bathgate (00:12.654)
I'm good, you know like Back from the dead like the Phoenix Rises, you know Yeah, I'm good man, I mean just carrying a lot of weight still a bit like I'm

Chuck LaFLange (00:23.126)
Yeah, yeah, well.

Ryan Bathgate (00:34.182)
Well, I've had a couple things happen, like I had to do an emergency EGD, do you know what that is?

Chuck LaFLange (00:43.478)
No, so it's the stickers all over your face kind of thing? Okay.

Ryan Bathgate (00:47.206)
No, it's they put a camera in my stomach. It's an esophagus. So anyway, so we took samples for the oncologist for biopsy. So I got, yeah, I went in and did some blood work and like...

Chuck LaFLange (00:53.27)
Chuck LaFLange (01:02.102)
that's heavy.

Ryan Bathgate (01:05.926)
on the Friday I think and then they on Sunday I got an email saying you got to get to the hospital for Thursday. I had to do the whole clear your bowels treatment and they didn't end up doing the colonoscopy section so I got to go back and do that.

Chuck LaFLange (01:19.606)
I bet you regret that, you know? Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (01:22.662)
Well, yeah, I guess some of my medications, blood thinners or something like I'm on a blood pressure medication. Yeah, anyways, so that was, you know, again, it's like all these things that you just can't do, you know, they're not my control. And so I'm really in this place of like, I call it, I just keep calling it getting in the wheelbarrow. And well,

Chuck LaFLange (01:27.094)
okay. Something. Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (01:49.078)
Explain that. I've never heard that.

Ryan Bathgate (01:52.646)
I heard a speaker years ago talk about the difference between faith and trust and so this guy explains it, he sponsors it to him, like he said those are the same thing, are they? And he's like, well no. He's like, if you're at a circus and you saw this guy with a wheelbarrow walking a tightrope, you'd have faith that he would get to the other side. He's probably done it a thousand times and you know, he's probably a trained professional and...

And you have absolute faith that he'll be successful in his show. And then his sponsors like trust is getting in the wheelbarrow. So yeah. Yeah. So like. Big difference to sitting down there and watching this guy. Yeah, sure, he'll make it. Getting that will you really put in your trust?

Chuck LaFLange (02:32.086)
Okay, okay, yeah. I like that, I like that, yeah. Hang on, hang on.

Yeah, yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (02:47.27)
So yeah, I mean, you know, like I'm trying to, there's a lot of things happening in my life. I just have no control over it. and the things that I, the things that I do is, is, you know, we go back to that commitment effort environment and perception and like, I'm pretty, I'm sticking to that, that idea to, you know, like on a daily basis in a very disciplined and dedicated way. And so I'm, I'm,

Chuck LaFLange (03:14.006)
I want to say humble too. For you that is, right? Yeah, right. I think for anybody it is. Just with you though, and we've talked a lot about how ego has impacted your life, right? So I think with you specifically, that humility isn't even kind of a bigger thing than it would be for a lot of people anyway. Right? Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (03:17.67)
Yeah, my god, my god, it is like...

Ryan Bathgate (03:36.614)
Well, there's a lesson there, and the lesson is you can't outrun humility. If you don't embrace it, you can't escape it. The longer you fight it and try to get run from it, the harder it smacks you in the face. And so I did five, six years of avoiding humility. And I got what I got. And I don't...

Chuck LaFLange (03:42.166)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (03:50.518)
or nothing.

Ryan Bathgate (04:05.094)
You know, I, to say I don't regret is difficult. I don't, you know, I have, I have trust and I'm trying to exercise that, that this, everything works out the way it's supposed to probably better than I can imagine. That's been my history. That's been my story time and time again. And it is, it is my, you know, my own, it's my arrogance. It's my, those, those, those,

you know, my intelligence working against me, things like that. But ultimately, it's the arrogance, it's the ego, man. It's like, it's the great disconnect, as Chucksie says in a new pair of glasses. It's the thing that keeps us from connecting. And when I'm not connecting, I mean, you know, I'm no different than any other organic thing on this earth, that if I am not connected to a source of energy, I wilt away and die, whether it be water, sunlight, or...

you know, the transaction of love, which in the human experience, love is extremely important to transmit and receive. It's evolutionary. And so I'm kind of in this place of like trying to get out of my own way and trying to, you know, be a better human being on a day to day basis. And that so that so what I'm focusing on being a good human, then I'm trusting that all the things I can't control.

Chuck LaFLange (05:10.838)
the edits.

Ryan Bathgate (05:30.886)
are gonna work out somehow. You know what I mean? So, I mean, it's kind of karma police, like, if I'm doing shitty things, I get shitty results. You know, and like, and so I was doing shitty things and I got some really shitty results. Now, let me rephrase that. I was doing some really shitty things and I got some really shitty results. You know, and I think they're, I think it's, you know, based on my experience and what I've seen, they seem to be...

Chuck LaFLange (05:41.046)
Every time. Right. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (05:52.118)
Fair enough, eh? Fair enough.

Ryan Bathgate (06:00.742)
of equal distribution. And so like, you know, today it's looking like a ton of self -care. I guess, you know, I hate, I don't even want to tell you what I'm doing. Because it is, yeah, I am. But it is just like so opposite to pre -March 3rd.

Chuck LaFLange (06:18.294)
you cannot.

Ryan Bathgate (06:30.438)
You know, and that date is significant because that is my newest sobriety date, one of many. But and like, yes, like, like I was one I know how to do. I know how to achieve long term sobriety, and I only know one way to do it. Unfortunately, that way, I'm not particularly fond of. And that means.

Meeting a day, checking in with somebody.

Chuck LaFLange (07:01.622)
I mean, to shift that perspective, I mean, fortunately you know a way, right? Not unfortunately, it's the only way. Fortunately you do know a way, so. Right, like, yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (07:06.022)
Yeah, and you know, it is, and you're right, you're right, I'm being, I'm probably being quite entitled in that. I just have some shame around being at this for 25 years and having any fucking two days, three days, I think today. To me, it's like, yeah, and why can't I get this, you know? And...

Chuck LaFLange (07:32.95)
Yeah, well, we know you can get it. It's sustaining it, right? Sustaining it, right?

Ryan Bathgate (07:34.918)
Well, and I can. To me, it's like that year eight is a big one. That's when it starts traditionally. So I first time I read up some year eight, second time it was year 10, but it took that time that, you know, it's about year eight that I turned my back on focusing on recovery and myself included. Like, and I started to like better than like I better than my way right into destruction.

Chuck LaFLange (07:49.302)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (08:01.398)
Yeah, yeah, well said.

Ryan Bathgate (08:01.766)
You know and the reality is is like that the amount of arrogance that I have is directly proportionate to the lack of self -worth I have And so they go you know what I mean like when that arrogance is is leveled my self -worth is leveled when my self -worth is high I'm pretty humble and

Chuck LaFLange (08:13.59)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (08:20.694)
That's funny, makes me think, you've talked about it quite a bit, but the first time that it really hit me, and you know, because we've talked about a lot of things, so to try and absorb everything you have said in past episodes, it's a lot, right? Mike Miller, who, by the way, today, 21 years, congratulations to you, Mike, right? Big deal, you know. So.

Ryan Bathgate (08:41.83)
Yeah, Mike, congrats. Horns up, buddy. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (08:48.438)
He was, he couldn't make a recording time or something that we had agreed. I don't even remember what the detail was. And when we did come on and record hours or days later, whatever it was, I'd mentioned to him how much I appreciated how quick he was to say, hey, I can't do this. I'm really sorry, whatever, right? And to me, it wasn't a big deal because whatever, I'm sitting at my desk working anyway. So it's like, you know, no harm, no foul. But for him, he explained it in that.

do what you say, say what you do. It's one of those values to him that is extremely important. And then he went on to explain, and this is the point I'm getting to, that when you live outside your values, slowly your self -worth starts to strip away. Right? And so I think that's a direct correlation to what you're talking about here, right? Like you start living outside, you know, your self -worth goes away and now your ego has to come up to protect you. And then here we are, right?

Ryan Bathgate (09:31.046)
percent.

Well, hot like judokagi.

Ryan Bathgate (09:41.094)
It's like when I, like when Rainey said, when did you become a liar? That should have been a huge fight because honesty is something that has been a staple in my character for a long, long time. And so when that one's showing up, we know integrity's corroded. We know self -worth is corroded, self -esteem is corroded.

Chuck LaFLange (09:46.966)
Chuck LaFLange (09:54.23)
Yes.

Ryan Bathgate (10:06.278)
My ability to hold space is probably corroded compassion access to empathy like you know, all the all the things that that that I identify as you know, I always say about your values are your identity and you know what? I I stepped outside of my values for a long time and my identity now is fucking newcomer again, you know

Chuck LaFLange (10:11.798)
all those things. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (10:24.15)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (10:29.078)
Yeah. And it's, I shouldn't even make that noise, but it's you and I talking, but, and so it's a, it's a different thing, right? But yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You know.

Ryan Bathgate (10:34.702)
It's an it's an oof man. It's an oof Like I'm in a meeting and I'm like I've been at this for 25 years and I got 93 days and never claps. I'm like no You're not you're not picking up what I'm putting down here like Like it's it's borderline pathetic, but you know on the other side of that is like fuck you like I'm I Yeah, yeah, so like if you came told me I got 93 days. I'm like good for you, dude. Like fuck is great

Chuck LaFLange (10:54.134)
It's really not, though, right? It's that 93 days is what's, you know, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (11:02.134)
Somebody once said to me, if we treated everybody like we treat our best friend, right? Who was that? That's right. He's fucking full of himself. I'll tell you that much, right? Yeah, yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (11:05.83)
Must have been a pretty good looking dude. Yeah. Wise though. No, and like to be honest with you, like I was just actually talking to, I was talking to Stacey and, and like, yeah, like I talk to him a lot now. He's been super helpful and supportive in my corner. He's always been like that with me.

And so I was talking to him and he was like, honestly, dude, like you need to be keep, keep, keep counseling yourself, keep doing what you do, keep following your own advice. Like, because it, you know, like this is the stuff because I'm talking about like fucking struggling with codependency and struggling with, you know, grief and loss and like, you know, like a lot of shit ton of shame, dude. Like it is.

it's so sticky and gross and it sticks all over everything. And like, you know, every time I've done this before, it's just been me and I've had nothing, you know, and I go and I get walking to a meeting or go to treatment and I put together these stretches of sobriety and like, I don't do it. Like, I don't I don't I don't get sober for a week, relapse for a day gets over for two weeks. And that's not how I do it. I go multiple years and then multiple years. You know what I mean? And like, so like.

Chuck LaFLange (12:28.598)
Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (12:32.23)
To not drink is not that tough for me. I'm not a chronic alcoholic. It's called an acute alcoholic. Which means more insidious. It happens outside of awareness. It tells you things like, you know, you're fine, there's no consequence. You know, you didn't beat anyone up this time. You didn't go do coke. You know what I mean? Like that stuff. But really what's happening outside of that is like the complete corrosion. It's a Trojan horse, man. Like...

It just takes all those intrinsic resources that I was talking about the values and just starts eating away at them slowly look until like and then and and the the fucking lies you tell yourself like Thinking things are okay like You know like retrospect is just it's it just shows the whole thing all the way along all the flags like all and just arrogantly blind

Chuck LaFLange (13:00.118)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (13:15.734)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (13:26.71)
That's interesting. I want to speak to something. There was, because I think, I mean obviously, I knew that you weren't completely sober. You told me a time or two that you had a beer now and again. Obviously I didn't understand the scope of the problem, right? And nobody did, so I'm not surprised by that. However, I will say, this is interesting, and I'm guessing that things excel, right? Like anything else when it goes, you know, the last month was a hell of a lot worse than the first month, and that was, you know,

Ryan Bathgate (13:39.214)
Yeah. Nobody did, no. No.

Chuck LaFLange (13:55.094)
Somewhere in between that was the middle months and you know what I mean? So in the last few months leading up to March 3rd, I did see a shift in character with the benefit of hindsight, of course, right? But I did see a great shift in character there. And it's funny, I've been thinking about that quite a bit and not really like, because you are on my mind quite a bit, but how that acceleration happens all of a sudden, right? So I'm sure over years,

Ryan Bathgate (13:57.318)
Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (14:02.95)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (14:11.462)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (14:24.726)
that you were, that everything that you're talking about right now, it happens. But when it, like when it all, you know, the compounding, you know, decomposition, if you want to call it that, right? When it catches up, you know, okay, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (14:29.35)
Yeah, and like...

Ryan Bathgate (14:34.854)
I want to call it the Big Bang. It's what it was. Because that's it. It was a life changing event, man, like in the worst possible way. But maybe the best thing to ever happen to me. I don't know.

Chuck LaFLange (14:45.366)
Yeah. Yeah. And I guess by the by the time anybody else notices it, that's when it's a runaway train, right? Like you notice it long before maybe, maybe not. But by the time somebody else says to you, bro, right, like by that point, things are getting pretty bad. You know what I mean? Like.

Ryan Bathgate (14:57.478)
Yeah, man, but you know...

Ryan Bathgate (15:03.302)
Things were, yeah, the corrosion, like I said, the corrosion started 2018. You know, like when it was just like, I, you know, I wasn't doing, I had assumed that my job was enough for, you know, like they, you know, they talk about, they talk about step 12 and like, I'm in that world right now. So I'm going to be speaking in that because that's where I am. And that's the only way I know how to get sober and stay sober is to follow these principles. And like step 12 and doing this work are not the same thing. If I get paid.

Chuck LaFLange (15:09.782)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (15:27.126)
Of course, of course. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (15:33.03)
It's not the same thing. When I do step work, I get something out of that. When I do work work, I give something. Something is taken from me. You know what I mean? And so that compounds. And like, I didn't know that until now, until this happened. And I look back and go like, how come that wasn't enough? Like, why wasn't, I was working fucking 16 hour days. Like, I'm helping people.

Chuck LaFLange (15:42.07)
Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha, I do, yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (15:59.462)
And why am I depleted? You know what I mean? And like when I think about the start of my burnout happened right when I relapsed. And I'm calling it that now because that's what I consider it. But I didn't at the time. I just figured it out, I thought, you know? And I told myself that. But fuck, come on. Like one in a million, right? One in a million, that's me. Unique until I'm f -

Chuck LaFLange (16:17.014)
It's...

It's not funny, but it's funny, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (16:22.726)
No, and it is like they call it they call it my mom my mom coins the term Terminal uniqueness and she heard that means years ago Yeah, she so she's actually she's like why's called off Chuck and she's talking about like She's like she said nits, you know, remember she made like MC hammer pants or something for everyone

Chuck LaFLange (16:31.19)
wow, okay, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (16:39.254)
Ha ha ha!

Chuck LaFLange (16:47.418)
yeah, absolutely, yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (16:47.814)
And then and I think some toques or something. She was just she remembers you always asking for like pants and toques and shit like that. So yeah, she had a good memory about, well, about you and Michael at our house and coming camping with us. I remember my dad, we were camping. My dad was like, holy shit, you got bigger feet than I do. And you're like fucking 12 or 11 or something like that. Yeah, that was Eagle Lake. Yeah, Eagle Lake. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (17:02.454)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (17:08.694)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Out at Eagle Lake, right, of course, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is funny because we end up moving five minutes from there, you know, a couple years down the road from that, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (17:17.926)
Yeah, I know. Yeah, so yeah, that must have been, that must have been mid 80s and yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (17:23.989)
Yeah, it was a long time ago. Yeah, most certainly was, right? So, you know, not to get too far off topic, but I still remember one of the like the most vivid memories I have outside of the giant fucking black dildo, which was not his mom's. Let's make that clear right now. That story has got nothing to do with Ryan's mom. So let's just like that really, you know, anyway. But it was Giants. It was Giants, right? Yeah. But outside of that is.

Ryan Bathgate (17:25.734)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I...

Ryan Bathgate (17:46.054)
Let's make that clear, yeah. And...

Chuck LaFLange (17:53.814)
us trying to go swimming at the wave pool and your mom digging through the couch for change to try and muster up enough, whether it was gas money or bus fare or admission to the swimming pool money, but for all of us, right? She was like, I just remember that so clearly, so very, very clearly, right? Yeah, it was one of the happier memories back then, right? Not, you know, there's some other things that I remember too that are pretty fucking disturbing, but you know, from.

Ryan Bathgate (18:01.158)
Nope.

Ryan Bathgate (18:12.614)
Just kind of sums it up, doesn't it? But you know, yeah, I like... I like...

Ryan Bathgate (18:23.154)
Yeah, and like And then like, you know, it's fun it's it is funny because like you start to go through your life and see that shit's a shit ain't normal, you know what I mean? Like And so like what do you what do you how do you develop as a child when your home isn't safe and the rest of the world isn't safe? You know unlike so like for me the first the first time I found something that was kind of like what I was I thought I was looking for which is peace was

Chuck LaFLange (18:23.574)
Remember like hiding in your basement and you know, geez.

Chuck LaFLange (18:44.022)
Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (18:53.158)
was downing a bottle of Southern Comfort in behind 7 -Eleven at 10 years old. You know what I mean? And that was like... Well, I did because I'd never touched Southern Comfort again. I puked so much it was disgusting. Never touch it again in my life. Or amaretto. Ugh.

Chuck LaFLange (18:58.326)
Yeah, right. Yeah. And that will forever impact you, right? Like forever. I mean...

Chuck LaFLange (19:09.046)
I think that was the first hard liquor I ever tried too. By then we were out in Strathmore.

Ryan Bathgate (19:15.11)
Yeah, so anyways, yeah, a little bit of squirrel there, but... So, where was I? Mom.

Chuck LaFLange (19:28.63)
Terminal uniqueness.

Ryan Bathgate (19:28.966)
Terminal uniqueness. Yeah, man, like I I am convinced that if I don't understand it's not even about paying attention to my ego. It's about it's about it's about walking with humility learning to become Infused with humility or integrated with humility because like

As you saw, my fucking ego is gonna kill me. And right now, it's just like, I am focusing on me and who I am, who I wanna be. I have to take this wreckage of the past and first of all, own it.

And I think that it's important for me to be very transparent about the mistakes I've made and not...

Man.

Yeah, it's unbelievable at times for me what drugs and alcohol can do to me and how devastating. And I just like substance use disorder is a circumference of devastation. Like everything in its orbit is devastated. It's like a fucking nuclear bomb, dude. Like...

Ryan Bathgate (21:02.15)
And everyone that is close feels that. You know what I mean? And like, my, you know, the greatest gift of all is survival, first of all. Which I can't even promise based on my, you know, I have my own views, if you will, on...

curiosity of what's next but as long as I got kids I'm gonna be here you know yeah and and really like that's you know it's like I don't I don't want to do a meeting a day I don't want to do my step four you know and it doesn't matter because like all they need to do is think about my two little girls and I'm going because that's all that's I mean and that is you know

Chuck LaFLange (21:33.75)
That's your focus for sure, right? You know, yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (21:58.022)
Thankfully, like some some good things come out of this and that is that I have an opportunity to become the person I want to be in a lot of and I've been that person to some degree so I am gonna be boring a lot of the tenants from previous sobriety states including living by my values and so that's why right now the transparency and honesty is important because that's part of my value system and And I just cannot shoulder

Chuck LaFLange (22:22.294)
Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is.

Ryan Bathgate (22:26.342)
Secrets anymore man like not you know I have enough with confidentiality like never mind my own shit, and I just like You know I don't I don't want to be I Don't want to be dishonest. I don't want to live with that icky fucking gross feeling you know and like I've just I talked about alignment and rhythm And I forgot what it fucking felt like I could theorize it

Chuck LaFLange (22:27.414)
Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (22:35.222)
Right.

Ryan Bathgate (22:52.358)
You know, and I can talk a good game. Like, do you see one thing Dio said when he was scraping me off the jail cell floor? I was like, like, I gotta watch out for your fucking, for your quick tongue, he said. Like, I can only, I can't even imagine the shit you talk yourself into. Like, it's fucking believable, it's believable. And, you know, and that's not a good trait, man. Like, you know, it's like...

Chuck LaFLange (23:10.582)
Yeah, right. Right. Yeah. Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (23:19.158)
If you're selling used cars, it's great, right? But you know...

Ryan Bathgate (23:22.438)
But still, I mean, I am so prone to manipulation that I don't even know I'm fucking doing it. And I talk quick and I think quick. I'm not saying that it's better or worse. I'm saying that I've always had to, as a survival technique, be quick.

Chuck LaFLange (23:28.374)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (23:45.542)
you know, and especially within, you know, the social tapestry of the lower middle class, like being, you know, optically Caucasian male. I experienced certainly a lot of...

I guess, you know, it was like the poor kid. I got the poor kid classism. You know what I mean? And like, you know, and to be honest with you, growing up, everyone was great. No, my friends were great. People knew like people knew shit wasn't good, you know, and nobody ever treated me poorly, but I fucking felt it. I felt like I was different. I felt like I didn't belong. I sure felt poor.

Chuck LaFLange (24:36.118)
there it is, there it is. There it is right there. The most common thing ever said on this show. I felt like I didn't belong. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (24:42.438)
Well, addiction is loneliness, man. Like, that's where it thrives. And that's why we talk about, like, you know, I believe in the power of the communities. I really do. You know, I struggle with some of the bullshit that goes on in the drama. And I do my best to stay out of it, especially, like I said, 25 years later. I've seen enough to know that I'm not interested in the clicks. And I don't care about what you drive and the glitter.

fucking cleavage, I don't care. What I do care is that I am committing to being the best possible father I can be. And that's all, that's what matters to me. And like all that other shit is all, all of it has become noise. Everything outside of that tenant right there has become noise. Obviously I would like some things to work out, but again, man, like.

I gotta give that away because I can't carry it on my own. I can't. It's just so fucking heavy. All the shit I can't control. You know, I'm not going there. I'm going there. Fucking biopsy, dude. What if I get... And my first thought is, great, I'm gonna fucking die before I even get a chance to be a good dad. You know what I mean? And that's where my brain goes. And it's not the dying part. It's them.

Chuck LaFLange (25:51.158)
Yeah, right, when that happened, right? Like, jeez.

Chuck LaFLange (25:58.102)
Oof. Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (26:07.142)
Like I know what it's like to not have that dad around.

Chuck LaFLange (26:07.158)
Of course it is.

I'm gonna ask you a very personal question, Ryan. One of the things, and I mean, I'll say this for benefit of the audience, but I think you'll know what I'm saying right away, but one of the things that so many people talk about with 12 -Step is the God thing and the higher power. I know you can speak to that very much in a general way, but can I ask you specifically,

what that means for you or is that something that's personal?

Ryan Bathgate (26:43.462)
Well, it's absolutely personal, without a doubt. And I, well, yeah, no, I don't think it's too personal. I mean, you know, I'm not the only human being out there or in recovery that is, you know, evidence -based. Like, there's a chapter in the big book called, We Aged Gnostics. Like, you know, they knew about people that don't believe in your, I mean, they have secular steps and traditions and like, so, but personally, like,

Chuck LaFLange (26:46.806)
It's super simple, I should say.

Ryan Bathgate (27:13.478)
I am really simple with it, to be honest with you. I believe I don't know what's beyond the galaxy. And I do think that it is quite interesting, the design of the Earth being the exact distance away from the sun that we can contain life. But even when the Earth turns and we have winter, people die because of that little shift, because it's so fucking cold.

Chuck LaFLange (27:32.438)
and the moon and Mars and Jupiter and right like it's crazy right yeah yeah yeah yeah

Ryan Bathgate (27:42.886)
This summer it's so hot. Could you imagine being just like four feet closer? Like, fucking people would be cooked up. It is, and like, if you look at like, you know, I watched this documentary about Earth, and it was created with a collision, the Big Bang, and you know, and asteroids, and then there's a moon in Jupiter that shoots like geysers of water out in the solar system. And...

Chuck LaFLange (27:47.19)
Yeah, right. It is quite remarkable, right, when you stop and think about that. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (28:09.766)
So anyways, that's all. Anyway, what I'm getting at is that in that documentary, it said that they believe that Mars was cooked by a solar flare from the sun.

literally hit Mars and evaporated everything. They have evidence of riverbeds, but they have no evidence of any still water. And that's why they can't prove that there was life there. But there is evidence of riverbeds. So that's interesting. Well, it's also interesting because Mars is farther away than Earth. Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (28:22.518)
Wow.

Chuck LaFLange (28:36.022)
erosion. Yeah, right. So I was just thinking that, right? So that's just that's a timing thing is all that is, right? Yeah. Where you were on the orbit at the time, right?

Ryan Bathgate (28:46.31)
Exactly. And so like, you know, it's a theory, like everything, but I mean, it's just like, so by design, like, look at a fucking spider web. Look at a butterfly wing. Like that's, I believe in that. I believe in that, that there's just like the organic world is just absolutely amazing and beautiful. And like, there's something so to me, there's something divine about it. And when I talk about spirituality, I'm really talking about connection and connectability. And so to be.

When I talk about, you know, if I consider myself spiritual, I'm talking about vulnerability and I'm talking about, you know, access to curiosity and joy and peace and love and all that beautiful stuff, you know, like, and like sobriety's role is an access point, you know, without it, I can't access those things, which I've proven to myself time and time again, and God damn, if I find another fucking excuse to pick up a drink.

Chuck LaFLange (29:29.75)
Okay.

Ryan Bathgate (29:42.086)
because I just can't fathom another excuse. But you know, like they say, cutting bass is powerful and I hate quoting that shit, but man, look at how insidious.

Chuck LaFLange (29:47.638)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (29:55.094)
You know, I often say to demons, and you know I'm not a religious person either, so I don't mean it literally when I say demons, right? But the demons of addiction are cunning and relentless. Relentless, right?

Ryan Bathgate (29:58.982)
No, yeah, but like dude it is it it And honestly, it is such a like when you think about how how much biochemically Alcohol in my system changes who I am. It's unreal like my mom She can see a relapse coming from a mile away with me because I'm a completely different human being you know what I mean and like It's it is like dude

Chuck LaFLange (30:18.614)
course you can, right? Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (30:27.398)
Neural, I thought neural loop theory was going to let me drink safely. Like that's ridiculous. Ridiculous. I'm gonna rewire my fucking brain based on neural loop theory, which is great. Don't get me wrong, it's not like I don't believe in behavior development, but like I thought I was gonna be able to unfuse the cocaine circuit with the alcohol circuit, which like why would I have a...

Chuck LaFLange (30:30.678)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (30:43.542)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (30:51.382)
Yeah. So you use the thing that proves addiction as a justification to go back to addiction.

Ryan Bathgate (30:58.246)
Totally. While, the worst part, no, no, the worst part is I did that while putting my daughter at the time and Marina at risk. Selfish, self -centered. To the core, like I can't think of more of a selfish act. You know, and...

Chuck LaFLange (30:59.894)
Interesting.

Chuck LaFLange (31:13.11)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (31:23.478)
And for what? Really, like even in that moment, like when you talked about it in our comeback episode when you picked up that beer and went, you're gonna fuck this up. For what? Like at the time, what is the risk reward, all the things, what's the reward from that, right?

Ryan Bathgate (31:26.854)
Why wasn't -

Ryan Bathgate (31:31.622)
Yeah. Yeah, dude. At. Well, at the time, I had built. Beautiful life in sobriety.

Chuck LaFLange (31:44.726)
Yeah, yeah. So that's the risk. What's the reward? Right? Like what does our brain make us think is the reward from when you go from, I'm going to fuck this up to cracking that beer. Right? Like what does our brain do there? That's a curious thing, right? Like, you know.

Ryan Bathgate (31:46.086)
Like.

Ryan Bathgate (32:00.454)
Well, it's this is what I mean that the when you have significant time relapse takes work It's you know what I mean? It eats away at you. So by the time I picked that thing up, I'd already made my decision You know what I mean? It's like I'm like walking to the fucking Cracko's with 20 bucks and going why am I doing this? You know, like I need to turn around stop walking there and do I stop now?

Chuck LaFLange (32:09.078)
Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (32:29.414)
You know what I mean? So like, you're already, it's just the, that biochemistry is already in an offset balance. And so like substance use disorder, it takes treatment. That treatment is significant to be practiced over time and further developed through autogidactic or, you know that word.

Chuck LaFLange (32:58.39)
other word.

Ryan Bathgate (32:59.91)
self -taught, best way to put that, you know, through discovery. Like, you know, like I got into phenomenology and I got into existentialism and I got into all these things in sobriety, you know, and because I knew that I needed more. Now what happened is my ego and every compliment, every, you know, and I don't do well with compliments, but what my ego does...

Chuck LaFLange (33:01.654)
Okay, okay, okay.

Ryan Bathgate (33:23.462)
And so that's an interesting thing that I'm uncomfortable with a compliment, but my ego fucking soaks that shit up. You know, and like, and I'll, you know, I can, thanks, Ryan, you really helped me out. I'll be like, no, you did the work. My ego's like, nah, Ryan, it was you. You know, it was all you. That guy's fucked without you. That guy's fucked without you. You know, like, and like that's happening outside of awareness. So like we talk about Gadamirian's levels of, of, of.

Chuck LaFLange (33:23.83)
Yeah, I like that.

Chuck LaFLange (33:29.942)
Yeah, it does, right? Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (33:35.966)
Yeah. It was all you. He barely showed up for that. That was all you. Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (33:52.134)
horizons of understanding, there are different levels of reality. We expand them as we go. And what happened with me is I was expanding and all of a sudden it was like, it just like cornered off everything important to me, just became about one little thing.

Chuck LaFLange (34:07.606)
or you trip.

It sounds to me like you went with an as instead of instead of an as well as. Sure, you needed more phenomenology, all the things, right? But you didn't need to get rid of, right? Like you could pile those on top of your recovery instead of replacing your recovery, right? If no. Okay.

Ryan Bathgate (34:19.574)
yeah. Yeah. No, no.

Ryan Bathgate (34:25.894)
No, no, no, no, I didn't go far enough. I needed therapy. I needed my support network. I needed to develop and enforce my support network. I needed consistency. I needed accountability. And I get those things now through having a home group, going to meetings, doing the step work, talking the talk.

Chuck LaFLange (34:32.534)
Okay. Okay.

Ryan Bathgate (34:52.102)
doing the things I need to do. Part of that's some of the stuff I like, meditation and the gym, I find it very cathartic, if you will. It's a very special place for me and my thoughts and my...

being and so like, you know, it's become much more than just this physical activity, but it's become something that I get in touch with my body through. So it's a psychosomatic connection. So I do that on a daily basis. And I'm drinking the Kool -Aid, man. Like, I don't like the way I feel every day. And I need, and so I ask whatever it is that's out there.

to help me with that, help me be better. Because I don't, I mean, honestly, it's my ego that would tell, that told me that prayer is stupid. You know what I mean? And I don't even consider it prayer, it's just conscious contact with whatever it is that I believe in, which I don't even really know. But I just know, like, you know, and I think about, like, like I said, in that jail cell, I talked to my sister, like, and you know, and that is meaningful to me.

Chuck LaFLange (36:05.622)
That's a form of prayer for sure. So yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (36:07.686)
Yeah, you know what I mean? And like, and so like, and now it's become so much simpler in that just like, I just want my family to be safe. You know, I want them to be okay. And, and, and I want to be the best version of myself for them. And I'd like to do that until I stop breathing. Whenever that might be, you know, and so like, and you know, like it's, it's fucking the hard, the hard part is just,

Chuck LaFLange (36:18.39)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (36:28.022)
Yeah, of course you would. Of course you would.

Ryan Bathgate (36:39.558)
Well, the heart puts the emotions, like, I mean, you know, I mean, I'm right smack dab in the middle of post acute withdrawal. I've kind of figured it to be about probably seven to nine months of post acute withdrawal, just based on maximum being 18, if I was drinking every day for 30 years, you know, like that'll take, pause.

Chuck LaFLange (36:57.878)
Explain the term post -acute withdrawal.

Chuck LaFLange (37:04.086)
But explain for the lay person what it means from a...

Ryan Bathgate (37:07.718)
It's a process of healing, neurological healing in your brain that, you know, when we add and become dependent on substances, our brain chemistry shifts, as we know, and we talk about this in the disease modeling. Our brain chemistry alters and it takes that amount of time for it to return. Now, a lot of our, like especially alcohol, where it's, you know, GABA, it attacks the GABA center, which...

Directly correlate to limbic system. So we lose it attacks of memory and Emotion so I'm a blackout guy. That's my limbic system being completely shut down by alcohol You know what I mean? And then I and when I'm you know, when I'm I'm fucking angry violent guy That is directly limbic

You know, and also fight or flight like so. that the limbic system, when it starts to repair itself, it's extremely uncomfortable and everything is like my sensitivity levels. I'm already a highly sensitive person and it goes way above that. And so like the ups and downs are just like fucking circus, man. Like, and you know, I'm just like. It's either anxiety or it's sadness or,

Chuck LaFLange (37:54.294)
Yeah, of course it is.

Ryan Bathgate (38:23.654)
I can't, I'm not at a place of very many good days right now, but the gold is in the cultivation of suffering, which, you know, every...

Chuck LaFLange (38:36.79)
So the reason that I asked you to explain that, Ryan, before we go into another tangent there, is that when people hear withdrawal, I think, well, at least for myself, I should speak to what everybody else thinks, but I think right away they think physical withdrawals, they think those things, right? And I guess in a sense that is a physical withdrawal, it's just happening in your brain, which, but it's not what we consider physical withdrawals, like you would from opiates or even alcohol, right? Or benzos or whatever.

Ryan Bathgate (38:52.774)
Mm -hmm.

Ryan Bathgate (39:02.886)
No, I need to sit here and eat.

But they kind of have their own defining characteristics relative to withdrawal symptoms. Cocaine, for example, its power is in the neurological. It's very thought -centered. And I'll have obsession nine months into sobriety all of a sudden just out of nowhere. Whereas heroin is much more somatic, where...

Chuck LaFLange (39:19.478)
Yes, yes, right.

Ryan Bathgate (39:33.094)
you're physically ill, you know what I mean? Or opiates for that. And so is benzos for that matter.

Chuck LaFLange (39:35.062)
Yeah, yeah. And neither is more powerful than the other, I would think. Right? Like that. Yeah. Just different. Yeah. So what it makes me think about is if you go back a year, if you go back to episode 30, how often I cried, how often... Like my life was a roller coaster ride. Like I'm emotional. I won't say wrecked, but I was a much more emotional person than I am right now.

Ryan Bathgate (39:40.454)
No, like I said, they're just different. They're both really powerful. All of it's really powerful.

Ryan Bathgate (39:58.31)
huh.

yeah. Yeah, and your, your speech.

Chuck LaFLange (40:03.414)
And not in a negative or in a better way, but certainly there was more fluctuation in the way that I operated day to day. And until this very moment, I never put that connection together until you just explained post -acute, right? Yeah, yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (40:12.806)
Yeah.

Well, and yours would be a lot longer, right? Because your usage was a lot longer. So, like, I'm talking about five years and really acutely about, you know, two, one and a half, two years, so.

Chuck LaFLange (40:21.302)
Yes.

Ryan Bathgate (40:29.702)
I'm going through it in, you know, month three, which is about right. Where typically, you know, if you're 18 months, it's like month five to nine is a fucking nightmare. You know what I mean? Like so I'm I'm hitting. Yeah, like I'm I'm hitting. I'm hitting a mark that those markers I'm aware, but I'm like, fuck God, like like.

Chuck LaFLange (40:40.63)
That math checks out.

Chuck LaFLange (40:51.926)
But being aware, that's an interesting premise right there. Being aware doesn't take away from it. And I think it's, you know, if you understand something, it makes it better. Maybe it does, but maybe in some cases it makes it worse. Because you know what's happening and it's still fucking happening, right? Like you can't stop it, right?

Ryan Bathgate (41:00.93)
No, I don't.

Ryan Bathgate (41:05.894)
So no, I'm very comforted by the knowledge I have, to be honest with you. Because I know this is a feeling and it's going to change. It's going to pass. And everything I'm going through, as long as I do the right thing, everything was going to work out in the favour of my goals. And you know, that's that faith becoming trust. That's where I need to let go. But it's hard.

Chuck LaFLange (41:12.214)
Okay, okay.

Chuck LaFLange (41:17.814)
Okay.

Ryan Bathgate (41:34.886)
When your emotions aren't rational. So I'll be in this space of like fucking deep struggle or depression or you know, what anxiety or whatever. And I know I'm telling myself, you know, like just, you just do the do, do the actions you need to do and this will pass. And so like everything right now is about, is action oriented. Everything I'm doing has to be about action. And it doesn't matter what I think or feel. It's, it's what I do. It's, it's, it's making sure, you know, like.

If I say I'm gonna be somewhere, the action is being there on time. Integrity is important. If I'm asked a difficult question and I'm fearing that you're gonna reject me with a response, I have to face that fear and be honest because honesty is part of my values. You know what I mean? And these are the things that I was not.

Following because my you know arrogance it's it is you know it does its job really well and with me especially well, you know and the problem is is it it I Give control up You know and that's what happened is I turned my back on a version of myself that I really liked and and and I used that even worse is I used it to trick people and manipulate and that's just

I have some fucking shame around that, boy. And I hate admitting that I do that. I don't... I don't... You know, I'm...

You don't always feel like a good fucking guy. You know? And, it's... Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (43:12.374)
Well, but I think we've talked about this in our most recent recording too, Ryan. The fact that you don't feel like all the good fucking guy because of what happened while you were using kind of speaks to the fact that you are a good guy, right? And it speaks to the fact that it wasn't you, right? Mike talks about that one quite a bit. And it's one of the things that I really latch onto and try to remind people of when I hear them say, you know, when they talk about the shame, you know, and cause.

Ryan Bathgate (43:30.502)
Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (43:36.646)
Yeah, that's fair. However, it does not excuse responsibility.

Chuck LaFLange (43:41.526)
No, it doesn't. No, no, it does not ever, right? But, but, and that lends itself more, that point lends itself more to what I'm saying in that, okay, now I know what I did, I feel really shitty about it, I know I'm not a bad person, I need to go back and make that right, or I need the amends, if you want to call it that, or whatever, right? You know, right, so.

Ryan Bathgate (43:43.558)
No, no, nah, just pass the chords.

Ryan Bathgate (43:59.654)
Yeah, yeah, and like, yeah, I mean, you know, like, like I wasn't going to do set the steps to be honest with you, like I was, I, I arrogance did like, I could another set of steps, like, and I, you know, I talked to actually, I talked to D -Roll, and he was like, wow, you know, like it's, you know, it's robotic. How was your last set of steps? And I was like, robotic and the set before that robotic and like,

You know in 25 years you do a lot of sets of steps, you know what I mean? But I was thinking about, I mean I'm driving along and I'm like, no, you know what? Like I'm thinking about all the amends, all the mistakes, all the people I hurt. I'm like, I can't, I will not stay sober if I don't. If I don't. You know what, I might, I might, yeah. yeah, fuck. Yeah, and it's the only...

Chuck LaFLange (44:30.518)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (44:46.358)
Yeah, that shame, that wet blanket, that is shame, to take one of your terms, right? You know?

Ryan Bathgate (44:55.654)
Like the only, like, you know, Brene Brown talks about shame as like, it needs secrecy, it needs dishonesty, and what's the other thing? Another element. Silence. Yeah. And, yeah. Good job. And so, I'm, the only way I know how to combat that is to take away the elements necessary for shame to thrive. That's why I, you know, I just, dude, I, I...

Chuck LaFLange (45:06.966)
Silence. Silence. See? I was paying attention. I was paying attention.

Ryan Bathgate (45:24.614)
I listened to the podcast the next day. It was released at the gym and I nearly threw up. I was so... I didn't realize how candid I was about my struggles. Yeah, it's...

Chuck LaFLange (45:42.358)
Is that because of the vulnerability or because of the shame that you felt that way?

Ryan Bathgate (45:52.006)
You know, I think it's a shame.

I just like, dude, like...

Chuck LaFLange (45:57.654)
I hope so, I hope so, because if not, the vulnerability is that's an ego thing, right? So if it's a shame, then it's, you know.

Ryan Bathgate (46:02.374)
What?

Yeah, it's just like the whole... I told the whole world how shitty I am. Like, you know what I mean? Like...

Chuck LaFLange (46:13.942)
told the whole world some shitty stuff that happened that you did and you know, and in the process the world got to see how shitty of a person you're not. Right? And if you want to, and I know it's easy for me to say that, it's so much harder for somebody to feel it whether it's you or anybody else. Right? That's, it's, you know.

Ryan Bathgate (46:30.054)
especially in it like, you know, I'm in consequence every day of that happening like, and to be honest with you, like, I, on some level, I will be for the rest of my life. I will never be the same. And, and that, that consequence I need to make an asset. And so like right now I'm in a really heavy, heavy part of it. And it's.

fucking lonely and and fuck I miss my girls man like I miss them like I never thought I could miss anything or feel about anything and

Ryan Bathgate (47:15.206)
And I miss my life. You know, like... Just fucking Icarus, man, like... Just had to fly too close to the sun. You know, and that's... It's just... It's fucking... I've always been like that. I've always gotta push that thing. I've always gotta see how far I can take it, you know? Like, when am I gonna learn? And that's the hard part.

It's just like, you know, like you think you fucking know something and it ends up almost killing you. Like, you know, and the reality is it's what I did. I mean, talk about manipulation. I did this to myself. You know, I talked myself out of good living. You know, and it was it was pure. And you know, like at that at that point, like me, Marina, Matt, man, my life was happening, you know, like.

I was a new counselor and excited about life and then you know, I had I think I met her at four or five years sobriety And you know, luckily she got to experience some years of sobriety But you know like we were all on a process of healing from the damage that I've done and I like to like really

put an emphasis on what I've done because well you know all's anyone else has done is tried to love me that's all that's all it and really hard and and so like I you know I need to look at this like why do I not deserve love like that's a real fucking question that I need to look at

Chuck LaFLange (48:45.462)
Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (49:05.958)
Where does that come from? Going through therapy and I'm doing a lot of that right now and I'm getting some answers. Some stuff that is really stale, really old, that is ultimately, it impacts my life every fucking day and has my entire life. The reason I push it is because I don't deserve that feeling, that...

You know, and it's so, you know, what's how do we define shame? Not enough. Like it's it's in the umbrella. Like I don't I don't deserve love. I don't deserve happiness. I don't deserve peace. I don't deserve freedom. Like. I don't deserve help. You know, and it's it's you know, it's that, you know, fuck, you know, there's those, you know, I wish you could have like I wish I would have just said, fuck, I need help.

Chuck LaFLange (49:46.098)
That's the big one there, right? Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (50:00.262)
to anybody. You know, I wish it didn't have to, but honestly, like even, you know, they're, I can't get into details, but it didn't, it didn't, it didn't hit that I was an alcoholic and an addict or substance use disorder even in, you know, until like day two of that jail cell, you know, like.

Chuck LaFLange (50:00.598)
Yeah, right, right.

Ryan Bathgate (50:29.158)
I was still like, thinking that... I don't know, like... I fuck, wasn't thinking, let's be honest. You know, I,

I mean, I've been given the gift of alignment and reprise and to use a quote from my psychiatrist, this is a redemption story and that's what it has to be. And I just like, you know, I...

The inability to ask for help is a really serious fucking problem. And I'm not the only person that has gone through this. And there's people out there all over that have built themselves up to something that they can't put a hand out. And all I can say is the outcome is not fucking worth it.

whatever you're thinking, the people I have in my corner want the best for me. And I've robbed them the ability to help me by being so fucking arrogant. I don't wanna regret things, but it's a regret. I really wish it would've just went to Marina and said, fuck, I need help.

I have a problem. You know, like, if I could turn back time. But I don't have that power. The only power I have is commitment and effort. You know, an environment, like, somewhat, but like...

Chuck LaFLange (52:27.606)
reception.

Ryan Bathgate (52:32.198)
The perception is, I struggle, I'm constantly trying to take my own advice on a daily basis. I am in, Ryan, turn this fear into curiosity. What could it look like? Let's be in that space, let's shift the lens. And I'm put to work with my own theories. Talk about humbling.

Chuck LaFLange (52:58.934)
Yeah, yeah, no kidding, hey.

Ryan Bathgate (52:59.494)
I'm the one that needs to test out my own shit. In a way, in a healthy way. Other than convincing myself it's safe to drink for some fucking reason. Like, why would I want to do that anyway? You know how awful it is?

Chuck LaFLange (53:03.414)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (53:09.174)
You're unique. Yes, right. Right. And I guess that was my question earlier, right? It's like, to gain what? Right? Like what, to what? You know, right?

Ryan Bathgate (53:19.174)
Yeah, you know, and I heard I heard I heard Gabo Mate say once I went to this panel and watch Alfred Langell, Bruce Alexander and and and Gabo Mate, which is like a superstar panel. I don't know if you know who those guys are. Alfred Langles, like the probably the leading existentialist in the world right now that's alive still and.

Chuck LaFLange (53:37.238)
I know two of the three anyway, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (53:45.622)
Okay, okay, yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (53:47.942)
He lives in Vienna, like super existentialist, too. And he and then Bruce Alexander's in Rapp Park. So and Kevin Maté says that, you know, like he believes that the brain can fix itself and, you know, like it's possible for people to drink. And he's saying this in the panel and he's like, but why would anyone take that chance? And I heard that in 2013.

Chuck LaFLange (53:57.846)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

Ryan Bathgate (54:19.014)
And still didn't, it didn't, it was like, like nothing there, like.

Chuck LaFLange (54:19.478)
some math there. So in an instance like that, do you hang on to the first part of the sentence and forget the second part? You know, is that is that what that is? Right? Yeah. Yeah. And for an addict brain. it is people can do that. That's you're not even going to pay attention to anything after the comma. Right? The but doesn't even exist. Right? Like, it's just like, you know,

Ryan Bathgate (54:28.902)
I mean, my ability, my...

Ryan Bathgate (54:38.378)
Yeah, yeah, I just heard you can drink safe. Go ahead. Here. Yeah, there's actually a. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's a bar. Bar in every corner like, you know, I know, like it's all like. Yeah, man, it's it's.

Chuck LaFLange (54:47.382)
Yeah. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. As a matter of fact, you should test this out and make sure that that you. Yeah. Right. Fuck. For the benefit of the people. You know. Right. Yeah. So. Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (55:06.854)
It's a fucking devastating time in my life, to be honest. This is the hardest part I've ever gone through in my life. This is the bottomest bottom. And to be honest with you, dude, I'm not a fan of the fucking let them hit bottom and bottom. We're not in that day and age that that's, to me, that that's an acceptable answer. But I wasn't gonna stop. I'm telling you.

Chuck LaFLange (55:27.766)
that's okay. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (55:32.63)
Yeah, yeah, right. Well, I think, and here's the thing with that. It's a conversation I had just hours ago with a very good friend back in Calgary who is struggling because her husband is an alcoholic and still drinking and, you know, making her feel all sorts of ways in that process. But we were talking, and she's talking about the anger and she had listened to a podcast, she sent it to me, I had to turn it off, man. I was just, like this woman is just...

Ryan Bathgate (56:02.15)
What do you mean, why'd you turn it off?

Chuck LaFLange (56:02.422)
No, of course addiction is a choice. If you put two twins together, I was just like, I'm listening to her. And she's just feeding this feeding frenzy. Like, it's just like, what are you doing? You're fueling fire. She's advising specifically women in this one to be okay with, you know, making the choice to leave if that's what's right for you. And her advice was gold. It was absolutely okay. But her justification was for it. He chose this. He did this. He was like, what the f - we were - okay, or science. We could go with science on this too, right?

Ryan Bathgate (56:22.214)
Huh?

Ryan Bathgate (56:26.086)
Hmm.

Ryan Bathgate (56:30.694)
Yup, yup.

Chuck LaFLange (56:31.062)
But then, so, and she said, it fuels the thing within me. I said, well, that's what she's doing. She's doing that to bring people to her side of things. Her advice is good. She says, in my mind, you are the only person that can choose to treat your disease until you're not, until you lose capacity. But right up until the moment that you have, that you, right up until the moment you lose capacity to be a functioning person, and there's an argument to be made there for mandated treatment, right up until that moment.

Ryan Bathgate (56:40.902)
Huh.

Chuck LaFLange (57:00.822)
You're it. You're the only person that can choose. So whatever your rock bottom is, whatever, right? But you can't, you know, she's not capable of curing him. She's just not, right? He has to be the one to choose that treatment and whether that treatment's a 12 step or smart recovery, recovery capital or whatever, right? You know?

Ryan Bathgate (57:13.542)
Yeah, but...

Ryan Bathgate (57:20.038)
I do agree, but I also know what it's like to feel like you don't have a choice to be an obsession. And you're right, it's perceptual. And so I heard it said years ago, my old home group in Toronto, this guy used to say, relative to the disease and all that, he's like, addiction is a perception disorder.

Chuck LaFLange (57:26.742)
Yes. Yes.

Ryan Bathgate (57:49.062)
Now I'm like, huh, 20 years later or whatever it is. And when I think about that, perception being in my locus of control, it is a perception. I was looking through...

a substance use disorder set of glasses. And so like when I'm in that state, I it's almost like you said, demonic. Like it's like a it's like a conjuring or something, man. Like it's a completely different entity within me that is operating and for years in a way that is completely destructive to my life. You know, and like everything healthy. Just.

Chuck LaFLange (58:22.326)
Yes.

Ryan Bathgate (58:36.582)
falls out the bottom. Yeah, like, and...

Chuck LaFLange (58:37.238)
vanishes. But to go back to Rock Bottom, right, and you know how I feel about it. Waiting for Rock Bottom is waiting for death, right? Like that's in my mind. This day and age, things have changed so much since that book was written that we almost take that particular statement and anything to do with Rock Bottom really gets under my skin because we're waiting for death now. That's what it is, right? You know? Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (58:46.694)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 100%.

Ryan Bathgate (58:59.174)
Yeah, I agree. I agree. I think that the evolution of recovery itself speaks to that. I mean, look at the fucking death toll, man. I mean, it's everywhere. I mean, we're not talking about lower mainland or Thailand. We're talking about everywhere. So, yeah, I agree.

Chuck LaFLange (59:08.598)
Yeah, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (59:14.55)
literally everywhere in every major city, like death rates or whatever. Nothing has killed more people outside of war and plague ever than the order, like in human history. You know what I mean, right? That same thing, that's addiction, right? Yeah, just more people now than it was before, right? You know what I mean? Yeah, hundreds of thousands of people in a year worldwide, over 100 ,000 in North America every year.

Ryan Bathgate (59:18.822)
And so this is why my.

Ryan Bathgate (59:25.574)
How about alcohol?

Ryan Bathgate (59:29.734)
Yeah, that's fiction, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (59:43.862)
for now what, four or five, 10 years? I don't know how long that they've cracked the 100 ,000 mark, you know, right? So, yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (59:46.95)
You know and yet the population is still increasing in a dramatic rate Or 7 .8 million now

Chuck LaFLange (59:53.398)
I still like I remember four. I remember four being the number right. It wasn't that long ago right. If I remembered it wasn't that long ago. certainly right. So yeah that's crazy. That's crazy right. But anyway but back to the point. Back to the point right. Is that...

Ryan Bathgate (01:00:00.614)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. And we're almost at... We're almost at eight.

Yeah, anyways, the point, yeah. So first of all, I wanna say like, that's why I said I'm glad to be alive. Because it was a low, low bottom that, you know, like, maybe not as low as, you know, like, I did make the choice to do something about it.

Chuck LaFLange (01:00:17.014)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (01:00:31.366)
And so you're right, there was that, but I needed that. I could not make that decision without the space and clarity I needed that I got in that jail cell.

Chuck LaFLange (01:00:40.95)
Yeah, well, there's a mandated argument right there, right? I mean, part of that is, right? Like, you know what I mean? Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (01:00:45.254)
Yeah, dude, like that broke that fucking takeover. It was like the exorcism, you know, like. I can. What is it? Christ compels you. Yeah, no, it was. And that's what it felt like, like I just was went missing for five years, you know, like.

Chuck LaFLange (01:00:58.998)
power of Christ's compels. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Ryan Bathgate (01:01:09.126)
And like, and so now I'm in this really like raw, emotional, heavy, fucking hard part of my life, but I feel like me again. And if I didn't have all of these other circumstances that are out of my control happening, I'd be really excited about the next step. You know what I mean? Like, and if I didn't, if I didn't get put in that jail cell, I probably would have went home and did it again next weekend. You know what I mean?

Chuck LaFLange (01:01:36.246)
Yeah, yeah, right, set all the things and whatever. And who's to say you can't, you know, that's the thing of fiction now, right, the past, you can't, yeah, yeah, right.

Ryan Bathgate (01:01:44.742)
It is, it is, and it's a speculation, but just like based on like how like blind I was to what was happening in my life, you know? And like there wasn't even moments of clarity, you know? It was just like a constant in the back of my mind saying, you're fucked, this is going bad. You know what I mean? Like once in a while I'd pop through, but it just instantly like, no, not hearing you.

I'm Ryan Baskin.

Chuck LaFLange (01:02:14.934)
Yeah, well, that's, yeah, we know we have a great way to fucking deal with feelings we don't want to feel, right? Like that's, yeah, right. That's that's an addict thing, you know, so, yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (01:02:19.43)
yeah. Yeah, and like, and I, you know, like I'm not a, I'm not a fucking daily drinker or user. Like that's the acute part is like, it happens. I mean, it sets itself up in a way that looks normal. And that's the insidious nature of it because it just over time corrodes at least the chronic. It's like, you know, chronic alcoholism is like.

You're punched in the face, you know, that's your relapse. Whereas acute is more like getting a virus. You know what I mean? That just kind of stays with you and slowly, it's like Lyme disease, you know, slowly takes you down. And so like, you know, I've been, I can't say gifted, I've been cursed with acute, you know, at least chronic. It's bam bam and back into rehab or, you know, like.

Chuck LaFLange (01:02:50.71)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:02:55.862)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:03:09.622)
Yeah, it's just so different. It's better or worse aren't the words words. They're just, you know, sort of come back to that, right? Yeah. But hey, listen, right? We've cracked the hour mark. Yeah, hey, that happened fast, right? For the first 20 minutes, I was like, how are we going to get an hour out of this boring shit? I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. No. Yeah, no, no, no, I'm kidding.

Ryan Bathgate (01:03:13.67)
It's just so different.

Ryan Bathgate (01:03:17.638)
Yeah, shit. Yeah, well, well, yeah.

Come on, you got an arrogant Ryan on here. Lots to say.

Chuck LaFLange (01:03:34.134)
Listen, that brings us to my favorite part of the show and that's the Daily Gratitudes. And I know they're tough for you these days, but I'm gonna keep pulling them out of you. So what you got?

Ryan Bathgate (01:03:42.758)
Well, life, I'm glad to be alive, first and foremost. I'm super grateful for the people that showed up. You know, and you know, like, I've lost friends through this, certainly. And that sucks. Man, it really sucks, but...

You know, I want to seek to understand, I want to stay in that space, so I'm really grateful for that saying these days. I'm grateful for humility as much as it's kicking my ass. And my little fucking girls in Marina, I will always be grateful for them, always. They are and continue to be my why. And that's never gonna change with me.

Chuck LaFLange (01:04:12.502)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:04:34.678)
Good.

Ryan Bathgate (01:04:34.694)
And now it's like, I have an opportunity to break that transgenerational cycle. And I have the opportunity to deliver a really healthy and peaceful childhood for my kids. And I have the opportunity for them to never see me screwed up again. You know, Tammy's case you'll never remember, but you know, I'm...

And so I'm looking forward to passing on to the next realm, having accomplished those things. Yeah, yeah, that's me. And I'll let you do the, I'm grateful to be back on the show as well and in a space that I can do so. And I think it's gonna be a little bit different moving forward. We'll just, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:05:08.694)
Awesome. Awesome. Those were good. Those were good.

Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:05:25.238)
differences is typically difference a good thing really right you know like if you've you know historically yeah right every time we did

Ryan Bathgate (01:05:31.942)
I think, I just think it's gonna be a lot more honest from my end.

Chuck LaFLange (01:05:36.038)
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that. There's everything right with it though. Myself, I'm very grateful to have you back on the show. I'm grateful for your life. I'm grateful that you made it through. You know, right? I like this version of you, buddy. I do. I shouldn't even mention it right now because I'm already emotional. But Devin, I'm gonna bring him up again randomly in the last week.

Ryan Bathgate (01:05:41.446)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:06:04.374)
three separate people who do not have a connection to the show have had a connection to Devon and it's come back to me through the platform. You know, most recently Angie from FAR, the executive director was doing some peer to peer work with a lady who was speaking about Devon and how he had helped her son so much, right? And she's wrestling with whether or not to let him know what's happened because he's back in early recovery and under recovery house. And I was sitting there thinking that...

We've talked about this and it's certainly Jason and I did in the episode that will be released later this week or next week, but the amount of people that man's life touched will you'll never be able to quantify that. Right. Like it just never. And it made me. It made me think that if I spend the rest of my waking hours for the rest of my life and I can try to make a difference and I can make a fraction. Of the difference that Devon made.

Ryan Bathgate (01:06:48.39)
I'm never at a... Sorry.

Chuck LaFLange (01:07:02.71)
I will be his success. Right? So, yeah, I think his memory is going to go a long way, you know? Right? So, yeah.

Ryan Bathgate (01:07:11.014)
Yeah, and like, you know, the last couple of years, I was my closest friend. One of them for sure. And like, you know, that's my support network is was him. He's the guy who took a week off work to fucking stay with me on his couch. Well, I cried and cried and cried. You know, I. I, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:07:17.206)
Yeah, right.

Chuck LaFLange (01:07:24.662)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:07:36.758)
Yeah, the world's missed a good one there.

Ryan Bathgate (01:07:41.766)
still pretty raw about it all and you know like.

We get so much death that comes across with this one, it's just so much different for me.

Chuck LaFLange (01:07:50.718)
Yeah, yeah, it sure is. I can only imagine for people like yourself and the people closest to him. Listen, I'm also grateful to every single person who continues to like, watch, comment, share, do the things that you do. You know what you got to do. Every time you do these things, you're getting me a little bit closer to live my best life. My best life is to make a humble living, spreading the message. And the message is this, if you're an active addiction right now, today could be the day, today could be the day that you start that journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call into detox, pray, go to church, I don't care.

Ryan Bathgate (01:07:53.862)
Yeah, I miss my friend.

Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:08:21.11)
Do whatever it's got to do to get that journey started. If you have a loved one who's suffering an addiction right now, you're just taking the time to listen to this episode. Just take one more minute out of your day and text that person. Let them know they're loved. Use the words.

Ryan Bathgate (01:08:32.582)
You are loved.

Chuck LaFLange (01:08:34.454)
That little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings him back.

Nah, I tried to cut that off.