237 - SYDNEY GRAHAM

Chuck LaFLange (00:02.287)
Hello everybody, watchers and listeners, supporters of all kinds. Welcome to another episode of The Weeknd Rumble on the Ashes to Awesome podcast. I'm your host Chuck LaFlange checking in from Krabi And wow, we've got a different kind of geographical makeup this time. So, I don't wait. Of course, my lovely co-host is in Cape Town, South Africa today. How are you doing today, Lisa?

Lisa (00:13.698)
Hehehe.

Sydney Graham (00:20.256)
you

Lisa (00:23.166)
I'm happy to be here. I missed you last week and I'm glad I'm glad to be back. So yeah, I'm good

Chuck LaFLange (00:26.535)
Yes, likewise, yeah. Absolutely, yeah, yeah. We had Sonja Johnson and Ifyana Kay from Dear Recovery step in as a substitute. It took two of them to make up for you not being here. I'm just saying. So that's how we did that, yes. And of course, our other guest is, I'm smooth as butter, our other guest is somewhere in Ontario. I'm sorry. I can't remember which city it is, Sydney. How you doing today, Sydney?

Lisa (00:39.354)
Oh yeah right. So smooth.

Lisa (00:47.796)
Thank you.

Sydney Graham (00:52.679)
I'm doing fabulous from Toronto. Check how are you doing? Yes, of course it is. There's so people think I'm not sure I'm one of them, but it's here. I sit.

Chuck LaFLange (00:55.527)
Toronto. From Toronto. Center of the universe. Center of the universe it is, right? Yes. Absolutely. So Sydney is joining us from FAR Canada, who is the title sponsor of this episode, and many more to come.

Far Canada, I think just to kick things off Sydney, let's just talk about who you are, who they are, what you've got going on there. I'm sure you have kind of a canned description or response to that question, if you wanna just kind of roll with that and we'll see where the conversation goes.

Sydney Graham (01:29.406)
Yeah, no, absolutely. I'm really happy to talk about FAR because personally, I think it's an absolutely incredible organization. It was basically formed because there was no help for the families out there suffering with loved ones having addictions and mental illness. And so two of these incredible moms put this organization together with the express purpose of helping all families across Canada, doing more than just peer support.

Chuck LaFLange (01:31.512)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (01:47.751)
Thanks.

Sydney Graham (01:59.242)
because that's one thing to get the sport. I understand where you're at. I'm sorry where you're headed and what's happening to you. But this really has concrete solutions. We are trained to effectively help families learn how to partner with loved ones who have addictions and mental health.

for a better chance at recovery. And so that's our mandate is to find recovery, whatever that looks like for as many families as we can. And we also do tons of advocacy work and education work, but sort of the main focus is helping other families.

Chuck LaFLange (02:33.271)
I, right away I picked up on some language there. Sorry, Lisa, I'll jump in. Partnering with people that have addiction or partnering with their loved ones. That was kind of the language I picked up on and I gotta say I love that, right? Yeah.

Lisa (02:33.77)
Sydney Wenwell.

Okay.

Sydney Graham (02:45.514)
That's why I use it. I think it's so important. It's important to understand that these are wonderful people that are suffering with these horrible illnesses. Respect, I think, is one of the most important things, and we can't come in and tell them what to do. We need to join them in the space that they're at and partner to help them along their journey. We're not there to take over. We can't do that.

Chuck LaFLange (03:13.199)
Well said, Lisa, you were gonna say.

Lisa (03:15.47)
I was going to ask you, Sydney, when was FAR formed? What year was it?

Sydney Graham (03:20.552)
So yeah, 19, oh my gosh, I'm getting all, 2016.

Lisa (03:25.407)
Okay, okay.

Sydney Graham (03:26.69)
2016 is when we started and we've been building more and more supports along the years and finding great success.

Chuck LaFLange (03:35.491)
Yeah, no kidding, eh? No kidding. Go ahead, Lisa.

Lisa (03:37.846)
can you tell us a bit about, like just more specifics, like what, you know, it sounds, it sounds great, but more specifically, like what is it that you guys do for families or are able to offer families or?

Chuck LaFLange (03:52.515)
But before you answer that question, though, Sydney, I do want to say, for some context, for people that are new to the platform, Lisa is very much the loved one of somebody who suffered an addiction, who has suffered an addiction. This goes right down. Like, this is, yeah. When she's asking these questions, it's much different than me asking them. So continue, though. Answer the question, please. I just wanted to give some context to people that maybe were tuning in for the first time.

Sydney Graham (04:20.554)
You know, I don't really think that there's anybody out there that hasn't been touched by a loved one or dear friend that has suffered. So this applies to more than just the family members, but for a lot of people that don't have that family support, unfortunately, their family or their friends or whatever community that they're with. So this is really helpful. But this is specifically designed for family members because often

The families are the ones that are delivering 90 to sometimes a hundred percent of the care. You know, we're preventing readmissions where they're supporting them. If families don't understand the skills to effectively help them, they're ending up back in the hospital. They're getting worse. They're getting exploited and they're dying. So what are those skills that will actually make a difference?

in their lives. And we're really teaching, we sort of started out with a focus on teens, because we see youth is where it's starting, and there's huge numbers of youth suffering. But really, we are talking to any family member out there with their loved one, and the ages really range of those that are suffering are from probably around 13 is where our youngest ages are. These families have 13 year olds, all the way up to

I have this wonderful mom that we talked to who has a 55 year old son at home. So it's a wide range. I would say the average is kind of early 30s. So we take care of very broad spectrum of people that suffer.

Chuck LaFLange (05:58.895)
Lisa, does that, as an average age, of course that's not a statistic that you're laying out there, that's anecdotal, right? But does that kind of, does that jive with your experience as well, your professional experience?

Lisa (06:11.614)
Um, yeah, I would say like, I think that I probably see patients even older, you know, I probably I have patients in hospital who are there with primary, you know, whether it's a substance induced psychosis or who are in their 60s for sure. Quite a few of them. Yeah, yep. Yeah, I would agree.

Chuck LaFLange (06:20.368)
Okay.

Chuck LaFLange (06:31.235)
Yeah, yeah, but for an average, for an average age, somewhere in there or older, yeah, no, okay.

Lisa (06:39.038)
I think 30s, 40s probably average, but yeah, the scarier number to me is that 13, you know? And I know it's real life, but yeah, it's terrifying.

Sydney Graham (06:47.435)
Mm.

Chuck LaFLange (06:48.199)
Not kidding, not kidding.

Chuck LaFLange (06:58.273)
It really is.

Sydney Graham (06:58.386)
Yeah, I certainly agree that there's older people, but for us, if you're 60, there's not many family caregivers around still to be supporting them. So that's why our numbers. Yeah.

Lisa (07:02.326)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (07:07.211)
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Right. Well, and the reason that I kind of dialed in on that, and that is a question, is for me, now I'm going backwards in time.

Lisa (07:11.585)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (07:16.699)
You know what I mean? Because when does all this start? When is this a... You know what I mean? So that's kind of where I'm at with it. And lately that's been a passionate subject for me, as I get at least as well aware of my Facebook wars and the comments and that. People like to blame the current administration in the US or any one single thing. It's like, guys, this has been going on for decades. So that's why when I kind of zone in on that, what is the average age? And again, it's anecdotal. It's nothing.

Lisa (07:29.863)
Hmm

Lisa (07:41.419)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (07:45.255)
It's not a statistical number that you're spitting out, but moving forward anyway, right? So, the peers, I don't know, what do you wanna talk about first, because there's so much you guys are doing there, and I really wanna get into all of it, right? Like, yeah, or Lisa, do you have a specific question? Because you gotta be wondering where the hell these guys were 20 years ago. Right?

Lisa (08:08.494)
They didn't exist. That's where they were. But you know, I've spoken on the show, Sydney, many times about how we've felt so alone and isolated. And we weren't quiet. You know, we were not ashamed and hiding, which I think some families do. We were fighting the government. We were, you know, looking in every crack and corner.

Sydney Graham (08:10.323)
No.

Lisa (08:37.922)
for any kind of help, again, largely looking for help for my brother who has suffered with addiction for a long time. But through those searches, one of the things I've talked about on the show is that other than being told to go to Al-Anon, there was nothing recommended to us by anybody, whether it was physicians,

Sydney Graham (09:02.43)
No.

Lisa (09:07.042)
whether it was staff at residential addiction treatment programs he went to, like there was really very little talked about in terms of what supports are available for family out there. So I think FAR is very, very needed.

Sydney Graham (09:28.002)
And with the numbers of people that we're getting, it absolutely is. You know, you bring up some really good points, Lisa, because before there was Al-Anon and the providers, they're not taught how to teach families those skills. Their focus is on the patient, which is great, if you can get in to see them. So just wait a year or two and we'll get to you. The system is set up to fail.

And that advocacy work as you're talking about, what you're doing is being loud is a very big part of what we do as well. And into the research and into a lot of public speaking. And I do a lot of sessions at some of the different universities teaching addiction classes and psychology classes and psychiatries just about what does it look like on the other side of what you are learning? Here's the real life picture of what's happening. So I think that's really key.

Lisa (10:16.482)
Mm-hmm.

Sydney Graham (10:24.634)
And these two incredible mums that did set this up was for that explicit reason, is no one's helping. And people are failing. Monumentally they're failing. And a lot of people were calling the kids help phone and getting scolded because they didn't deal with the families. And no one else was doing that. Al-Anon is terrific. I think the AA community and they have some of the best supports in the world.

And there's always somebody there that connection is so vitally important. And yet too, that's a faith-based model. It's not a medical model and it doesn't work for everybody. It does work for a lot, but not everybody. So.

Chuck LaFLange (11:06.255)
Well, I think Lisa's had, if you don't mind sharing your experience again, Lisa, your experience with that particular Al-Anon group and that particular city. It's important not to do the blanket thing here, right? But, you know.

Lisa (11:11.472)
Yeah, I...

Lisa (11:17.038)
Well.

Totally, and I will preface it with the fact that I'm, I will, you will see the hypocrisy in that I always tell patients to go to AA meetings and I tell patients to try many AA meetings and that they need to find the right fit for them. And I tell them all the things. And I do believe that, that AA is a great support for folks. And similarly, I expect that

Al-Anon is probably the same. However, my exposure or experience with Al-Anon happened once. Walked out and never went back. So basically, I, um, my brother was in detox two, two floors up and he had left and then gone back and we had helped bring him back.

Sydney Graham (11:58.601)
Uh oh.

Lisa (12:13.382)
And after he went into the detox, we went downstairs and there was an Al-Anon meeting and I was like, I'm gonna go to this Al-Anon meeting. And I went into the Al-Anon meeting and then my cell phone started to ring. And I would say 75% of the people sitting in that room are like, don't answer the call, do not answer that call. And I just looked at them and said, I don't belong here. And I got up and walked out. And I did answer the call.

And it was literally my brother on the other end of the line, sitting on the floor, two floors up, terrified. I remember him saying to me, promise me I'll be okay, promise me I'll be okay. And I think in that moment, I think he legitimately was afraid he was going to die. And I don't know that he was afraid he was going to die of an overdose one day. I think he was just terrified of

Sydney Graham (12:51.679)
Oh god. I'm gonna...

Lisa (13:09.758)
psychologically what was happening to him, withdrawals that were happening to him. And, and I, so for me those things just got cemented in my brain and I was just like, I will never go somewhere where I am told to not answer the phone. And I never went back.

Sydney Graham (13:27.766)
Oh, I s- I would 100% agree, especially when you have someone in distress and they need you in that moment, as my computer now needs my charging cord. Do you see?

Lisa (13:35.906)
Yeah. Oh.

Chuck LaFLange (13:39.243)
Well, I think the thing about in that particular, and again this is a very specific circumstance with you know all the things that we've said to preface this, but he's at the detox center. He's not out using, he's not calling you for money, he's not, he's in the process of getting help. Why would anybody tell you not to answer that fucking phone? Right?

Sydney Graham (13:45.61)
Sorry.

Lisa (13:57.293)
Mm-hmm.

Sydney Graham (13:59.178)
No, hey, he's sick. It's not.

Lisa (13:59.79)
And the thing again is if someone said, don't give him money, I would probably have said, no, I won't. But don't answer the phone was just too much for me.

Chuck LaFLange (14:06.291)
Yeah. Oh, that's just horrible, right? Yeah.

Sydney Graham (14:11.05)
See, and I think the model that they choose, whatever path that is right for them is a good thing. And I would follow them 100% down that path. The challenge is sometimes with that AA model and their beliefs, again, which really do work and I do promote that.

Lisa (14:28.238)
Mm-hmm.

Sydney Graham (14:28.51)
But a lot of the challenges too is that their perspective is very different than a medical model would be because we usually know there's an underlying reason for addiction. What's driving that addiction? Mental health and trauma are very high on that list and when they are not addressing those issues what can kind of happen is a slightly stigmatizing because I know certainly

Chuck LaFLange (14:44.159)
they are, yes.

Sydney Graham (14:58.03)
I find challenging because we've got to keep reinforcing that these are illnesses. And the fact that we want people to apologize for having an illness just doesn't sit right with me. You know, it's, so it's really difficult to be sending people down that way. We know relapse is a very expected part of recovery, but that's sure going to happen a lot more often when we are not addressing the underlying illness that is driving the addiction.

Chuck LaFLange (15:26.339)
Of course it is, right? Of course it is. And I think just for the sake of language, referring to 12-step model as opposed to AA because we're talking about Al-Anon, we're talking about NA, we're talking about AA, right? So the 12-step model is just, again, I'm not that guy who likes to jump on language so much, but I think in this case, just because, right?

Sydney Graham (15:27.655)
So.

Lisa (15:47.11)
But I think, Sydney, you're the first person, like it's come up on this show in a few different ways. Like I know, for example, Chuck will say that he likes to have the approach and encourage the approach of turning your stories into thank yous. You know, thank you for giving me another chance. Yeah.

Sydney Graham (15:47.126)
Absolutely.

Chuck LaFLange (16:01.591)
Yes, that's one of my big ones, yeah. Instead of sorry, I fucked up, right? And the power in that, for yourself, for the person you're saying it to, and now that you said that, at least I'll explain to Sydney and to anybody that might be listening, are families, and of course, me, I think I'm the only person sitting here who's gone through addiction or is in recovery now. So for me,

Sydney Graham (16:03.766)
like that.

Sydney Graham (16:08.48)
Oh.

Chuck LaFLange (16:30.551)
my family's heard it all. They've heard the stories, right? Really, when you come back in from your latest relapse, lapse, whatever you wanna call it, and you say sorry once and you mean it, anything after that, it's just they've heard it. What's the, why keep reliving that? Why keep doing that to yourself? Why keep doing it to them? So instead of, sorry I do it again, thanks for giving me another chance, right? Thank, and it's just, what that does to the person.

saying it, what that does to the person hearing it, because they've heard the story. It's like, hey, thanks, right? Like, I really appreciate that I'm back in the home and I really appreciate it. It's a powerful, powerful thing to experience, right, for everybody involved, so, you know.

Sydney Graham (17:12.705)
Can I add on to that really quickly as you're saying that? Because you're coming from a different perspective than I am. But I'm also, I think it's really important that people understand you are not the addiction. It's an illness that is a part of you. It is not who you are. So when you're asking for the forgiveness, you're even saying, thanks for giving me another chance. You are this wonderful person underneath the illness. Do you need to?

Chuck LaFLange (17:15.063)
You can, of course you can. Yes.

Chuck LaFLange (17:20.428)
Of course, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (17:28.507)
No.

Yes.

Sydney Graham (17:42.41)
have that perspective, and particularly for families to understand when they say that they're sorry, they do mean that. And that's their loved one talking to them. And then that addiction comes back in and it's controlling everything and it takes you away again. And so to understand.

Chuck LaFLange (17:48.869)
Yeah.

Yes, absolutely.

Chuck LaFLange (17:57.719)
And you're right, showing gratitude for people understanding or giving you that shot to show them that it's the real you is hugely important and validating, right? You know, and as the addict, and I don't even call myself an addict, but just for the sake of the conversation, as the addict, it's so important to...

Sydney Graham (18:02.978)
Oh yeah. Yeah.

Sydney Graham (18:08.918)
Yes, yes.

Chuck LaFLange (18:23.991)
Yes, everybody, it's all about me, all the time. Right, when I relapse, it's about me, my mom worries about me. When I sober, my mom worries about me. Right, like forever, and I've talked about this many times on the show, right?

So to show some gratitude for that, to say, you know what, thank you, to validate those things, because everybody's validating my shit. If I've got an awesome family and I do, they're validating the fact that yes, it's a disease and it's not the real me and all the things, and I love that. But the trauma that our loved ones go through is very, very real, right? And maybe it's not my fault, maybe it's because of the disease, but it sure as hell ain't my mom's fault.

Sydney Graham (18:50.178)
good.

Chuck LaFLange (19:08.835)
Right? You know, right? So she needs some validation. She needs some acknowledgement just as much, right? So yeah, right. Yeah.

Sydney Graham (19:09.812)
No.

Sydney Graham (19:14.69)
Oh, and that's lovely to hear coming from you, because it is very incredibly difficult for the families. But those are some of the strategies that we are teaching the families is to understand you didn't cause it, you certainly can't control it, and you're not gonna cure it. So when those, you know, they're talking or things aren't going the way that the family member would expect it to go.

Chuck LaFLange (19:21.466)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (19:29.571)
Yep.

Lisa (19:29.622)
Mm hmm.

Sydney Graham (19:37.27)
We do have this understanding that there isn't the control and validating as you say, your wonderful family is doing for you. But there's so many skills for the family members to understand because it's that perspective that most families are really struggling with, that they're being bad and they're not listening to me and you can't believe how disrespectful they are.

Chuck LaFLange (20:00.419)
Yeah, right.

Lisa (20:00.613)
Mm-hmm.

Sydney Graham (20:00.998)
And I said, I think they can, but I bet you they're absolutely wonderful, compassionate human beings. And they're like, well, yeah, of course they are. So I said, maybe does that disrespect sound like it's coming from the addiction, not your child? And so that's, you know, getting parents, any kind of loved one to understand, what's really going on. Cause society does not get it. And, and we used to come from this, you know, the tough love.

Chuck LaFLange (20:16.022)
Right? Right.

Chuck LaFLange (20:26.187)
No. No they don't. No.

Sydney Graham (20:30.606)
let them hit rock bottom kind of a stance. That is so prevalent still with a lot of people that I speak to.

Chuck LaFLange (20:32.423)
Tough love, fuck. I know, it really is, it really is, right? Yeah, I've taken a saying, tough people thrive in spite of it, not because of it. Right, like that's, you know, right? You know, yeah.

Sydney Graham (20:43.454)
Yes. Yeah. But if we understand it's an illness, why would you want to be tough on someone who has an illness that is possibly not even their fault? It's a lot of this is hereditary. It's environmental, it's trauma. Those things all happen to your loved one. They're not trying to do that. So understanding tough love, rock bottom in this world essentially means death. And, and, yeah, well, go ahead.

Chuck LaFLange (20:51.34)
I don't get it.

Chuck LaFLange (20:55.663)
There's so much going on, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Lisa (20:59.299)
I'm not sure if you can hear me.

Chuck LaFLange (21:07.099)
How many times, Lisa, have you heard me say? Right? Waiting for rock bottom is waiting for death. That's what it is now, right? 100%, yeah.

Lisa (21:10.894)
Many, many.

Sydney Graham (21:13.106)
Yes, nobody wants, we don't wait till stage four with cancer patients before we treat them.

Chuck LaFLange (21:19.393)
Oh wow. Oh, there's a gold nugget right there, right? Yeah, yeah.

Lisa (21:22.455)
Mm-hmm.

Sydney Graham (21:24.074)
Why in the world would we wait for this disease to progress before we decide to treat it? The faster we get to it, the faster there's possibility for healing. And on the other side, the faster we can get the families and teach them skills, the more they know, the better they do.

Chuck LaFLange (21:41.787)
Desperation is not a gift Right, no, it's not Wow Lisa what you got I see your wheels just fucking turning there. They're just spinning I can imagine

Lisa (21:42.024)
Mm-hmm.

Sydney Graham (21:51.606)
Hehehe

Lisa (21:54.662)
So many things. So many things. You know, one of the thoughts I had listening to the conversation is that as a family member, I definitely in the early days felt very confused, right? Like I was like, why would he do these things? Why would he act this way? Why would he not?

grab on to help that's being offered. Like I had all of those things and I did feel very helpless as a family member. I do think that while absolutely, cause one of the things that Chris will talk about is that, for the person in addiction, they can get almost moments of respite when they're high. And as family members who are not active in addiction,

We don't get respite.

but there is still a part of me, and I don't know how quite to word this, but I'm just gonna try. I still feel like kind of adding on to what Sydney was saying that there are some family members who almost sit a bit in the victim chair as if the person with addiction is doing all of this to them.

Chuck LaFLange (23:11.182)
Oh yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (23:17.216)
Uh oh.

She's freezing up on us.

Lisa (23:21.942)
Yep, there we go, we'll be back.

Chuck LaFLange (23:23.399)
Shiza, we were doing so good. Oh, Kate, there you are, you're back. Okay, okay, yeah, yeah.

Sydney Graham (23:26.038)
They're rare.

Lisa (23:27.534)
Okay. But a little bit, so I don't know where it got cut off, but I do feel like sometimes family members sit in a victim chair, and they feel like the person with the addiction is doing this to me. Right? And, and I don't think it's intended. And I think if someone ever pointed it out, they would be like, Oh, my gosh, no. But I do think that happens. And

Chuck LaFLange (23:38.615)
Oh yeah, without a doubt.

Lisa (23:52.682)
You know, in terms of the sorry, Sydney, one of the things, it's a conversation that I had with an interventionist who helped my brother, is I said, like, I remember when my brother was in treatment a year and a bit ago, and he sent me an apology text message. You know, I'm sorry for the stress I've caused. I'm sorry, like, you know, and I wrote him back, and I said, like, well,

I'm sorry that you got the genes you got and I got the genes I got. And I'm sorry that you have suffered for so much of your life trying to not give into this disease that's trying to kill you. You know, and it's just like, it just feel too that if family members again could approach their loved one.

with our stories, like I'm sorry life is so hard for you right now. You know, how would the person suffering with addiction feel?

to have that turned around and be like, I'm sorry. Like, what are you sorry for? Like, you know, it's.

Sydney Graham (25:07.902)
Oh, so many good points you've brought up. And I love the way that you are. I know I do. I, you know, you've done such a lovely job, it sounds like with your brother and your perspective is absolutely lovely. And those are a lot of things that we are trying to teach the family members is to understand they're not trying to hurt you. They're trying to survive their day. They don't have the bandwidth to be worried about trying to be respectful to you and how this is affecting you.

Chuck LaFLange (25:10.311)
Told you were gonna like her.

Lisa (25:29.902)
Totally.

Chuck LaFLange (25:30.032)
Yes.

Sydney Graham (25:35.474)
As they're in recovery, we see a lot of that, of course. But it's learning that new perspective. Nobody can make us feel anyway. I'm a mom of three boys. They can't make me feel anyway. I choose the feelings based on, you know, it's not what's happening, it's how I'm reacting to it. There's where our power is as a family member. So shifting that and really looking for the family caregiver is self-care.

take care of yourself first and learn about this. And a lot of families do make mistakes and they're really worried about how do I go from where we started, which is very common because that was the thinking of the day to this whole new thinking. And I think we have to look at this so basically and in a humanistic way, say to your loved one, you know what, I'm starting to learn more.

Lisa (26:12.118)
Oh yeah.

Sydney Graham (26:31.95)
I've learned that the way I thought isn't working and I'm learning evidence-based skills that we teach. And I love you very much. I was doing my best and yet that wasn't good enough. So I wanna make an apology. I'm sure I must've said stuff that hurt you and I didn't mean to. So I'm gonna continually learn so I continually do a better job for you. And the other big message that I'm giving families is ask questions.

show respect and come from a place of learning and say, I don't have this illness and I can't possibly understand what this feels like. What does it feel like to be you? What do you go through? It's curiosity, they know what's happening. They are the best teachers for their family members to explain exactly how is that brain taking over? Where does it have a hold in the control?

Chuck LaFLange (27:13.903)
conversation we just recently had, curiosity, right Lisa? I think that was, yeah, we just had this conversation, yeah.

Lisa (27:18.044)
Mm-hmm.

Sydney Graham (27:30.89)
so that we understand and a lot of language is bad and behaviors are bad, but we don't have to take it personally. Because again, that's not our loved one doing it. That's the illness. So who's talking to you right now? Your child or the illness?

Lisa (27:31.168)
Hmm.

Lisa (27:44.814)
Mm-hmm, totally. And I think that the old school approach is to speak to the loved one in addiction as if you do know it all and as if you have the answers. And as we say on the show all the time, no one has the answers. There's no doctor with the answer. There's no parent with the answer. There's no person suffering with the answer because there is no answer. There's a single answer for this brutal disease.

But I think that if you approach somebody with anger and resentment and you know, you're shaming them, they're just going to shut you out. They're going to shut down, shut you out, get defensive. And curiosity is going to, I think, bring down those walls. And they're going to think, oh, you actually care. You actually get that you don't get it. And you're wanting to listen. Like what I have to say matters.

you know, and then you start to create dialogue. And I think that's the first step to somebody asking for help.

Sydney Graham (28:49.854)
Yeah, if the family members are not able to create a very safe space for your loved one to come to you without any anger or any judgment or increasing their shame, you will never get to that partnership where you have the power to help. So it really is, you know, for families, there's a big responsibility for them. And they do play a big role in this to understand we need to be tearing down the walls and building those bridges.

and allowing them to come to us where it's safe. And that's something that makes a huge difference for them. And Chuck, you certainly understand that when you're invited in as opposed to being pushed away. What's the motivation for them to change? If family's kicking them out and being upset, which we understand why they're upset, but where's the motivation for them to change? We can bring that on. We can help.

Chuck LaFLange (29:30.118)
Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (29:37.744)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (29:47.467)
Well, and it's worse than lack of motivation. It's, I have a coping skill that's built in. Now, like I've got, like it's a neural loop that has been like seriously reinforced over time. And if my family wants nothing to do with me, if my family thinks I'm a piece of shit, well that sucks and I know exactly how to deal with feelings that suck, right? And right back into it you go and now it's a snake eating its tail and you know, where does that shit end, right? So, you know, yeah.

Sydney Graham (30:16.054)
Yeah, of course, but they're self-medicating for a pain. And it's, you know, once we start to have that kind of an understanding, behaviors make sense. And when we learn why they're doing it and how those substances make them feel, I mean, it's an easy thing to validate because they're just trying to take care of themselves. And like I said, survive.

Chuck LaFLange (30:18.447)
Yep. Yeah. Right.

Chuck LaFLange (30:37.431)
I had a conversation with a family member shortly, it was a few months into recovery. And we were talking about something totally, somebody else totally different. And it's like, well yeah, well no, they have nothing to do with that family member because he's an addict and they've completely, you know, he's not a part of. And I was like, that's not okay. She said, well what addicts do to the family isn't okay. This is a family member of mine said this to me. And I was like, do you think that I was doing something to you? That was my response. Like, do you think I was doing something to you?

Right, when I was out there, like it was, I was surviving for two fucking years, nobody checked on me. Do you think I was doing something to you? Right, like, and so, and that's, that's prevalent throughout all of this in so many, more families than not, I would venture to say. I don't know that for a fact, but I would think, yeah, it's probably a safe bet, you know, if I was gonna bet my paycheck on it, you know.

Lisa (31:15.489)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (31:30.734)
And I think, you know, take it up and take it up a notch, right, Chris, that if family members are going to do that to you, what's the, what's society going to do to these people? If your own family member is going to assume that you were doing this to them, you know, and this, and Sydney, I tried very hard not to get into Facebook Wars. Fell down that hole a week ago.

Chuck LaFLange (31:39.312)
Yeah.

Sydney Graham (31:58.211)
I... Ha ha I... Oh, I get it.

Lisa (31:59.962)
Oh my god and it was you know it was a video of Kensington in what state? Pittsburgh?

Chuck LaFLange (32:00.922)
Yes, you did, yes.

Chuck LaFLange (32:08.099)
I'm not even sure where Kezinc-Zhenev is. Philadelphia maybe is where it's at. I'm not sure, yeah. But it's a downtown East Side, or Hastings East Side, whatever, it's one of those. Right, yeah, right. Yeah, yeah it is.

Lisa (32:12.13)
Philadelphia, that's it.

Lisa (32:17.67)
on steroids, on steroids. It's bad. And it was this video of these people just suffering. And then the comments on these posts are just, it just speaks to what society believes, you know, oh, they're trash, they're junkies, they're ruining our neighborhood. It's their choices. It's their fault. And I just am like, oh, I can't handle it. It's

Chuck LaFLange (32:33.295)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (32:39.333)
Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (32:44.175)
Ha ha ha.

Sydney Graham (32:46.834)
No, and you know, and I, I always hate to go here, but I'm going to anyways, because it's incredibly prevalent. It's yeah. Well, I mean, that's happening to them on the streets, but it's also happening when they go into healthcare asking for help. And there's a lot of people that want, first of all, I don't think the education system is adequate enough, not even close. It's like touched on briefly.

Lisa (32:47.384)
You know?

Chuck LaFLange (32:54.499)
You have my attention. All right.

Lisa (32:55.278)
HNNN

Chuck LaFLange (33:03.543)
Yeah, yeah, right.

Sydney Graham (33:15.37)
And that's it. So unless you're in front of a professional when you're going into emerge in front of an emerge doctor or anywhere else, and I've even certainly seen it with like chief of psychiatry, that they're bringing personal biases and they are abusive to these poor people that are suffering. And the challenge with that is how do we draw them into care when it's the providers that are pushing them away and creating unbelievable shame in them?

Chuck LaFLange (33:33.553)
We've talked at length about this and it's, yeah.

Lisa (33:44.974)
Thank you.

Sydney Graham (33:46.438)
And here's the families on this side trying to push them towards that. There's gotta be something seriously done within the healthcare system. And the other question would be, with all this information that we do have, all this evidence-based knowledge that we teach, and this new perspective on how to see these people as sick, why are the doctors and every profession not screaming that from the rooftops? Stigma should not exist.

And yet we allow it to keep going. Why are they not putting a stop to that? We know better now.

Lisa (34:15.668)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (34:15.687)
Yes.

Chuck LaFLange (34:23.363)
Can, Lisa, and I know we've spoken at length about this and your experiences with it, and very much lines up with everything that Sydney's speaking now. I didn't want to put words in your mouth, but from what I've heard you say. Why not, though? Any perspective on that? Any insight as to why? Why the stigma still prevails? Is it just old school shit, or what is it?

Lisa (34:27.067)
Yeah.

Lisa (34:32.919)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (34:46.286)
Oh, I think it's a bunch of things. I think, you know, I think it's getting better. I think if you look at younger physicians, I do think it's better than it was before. And I think some of that is, again, inadequate addiction education in medical school. Like even when I went through medical school, we did, I think, an afternoon.

on addiction in medical school. That was it, one afternoon. Now, luckily it was taught by some, you know, like taught by some really awesome psychiatrists who are passionate about addiction. And so it was powerful and helpful, but it was still very limited. I think just like we're saying, I mean, doctors are just people. And the reality is that all the stuff that we see on Facebook, all the trash coming out of people's mouths.

Chuck LaFLange (35:20.783)
in 10, 12 years, whenever I was ready.

Lisa (35:45.334)
those beliefs are still so infiltrated through society. And I think doctors, nurses as well. The other thing is that a lot of, not all, but I still think from my personal experience, if I look at who I went to medical school with, the majority are very privileged people who come from very privileged lives.

who, and again, I'm not saying that addiction doesn't affect the privileged because it does, but I think that a lot of them just came from very privileged upbringings where they had been, they're very naive to addiction, very naive to who addiction can affect. And I think a lot of them just had the belief that it's them, that's them, and this is me. This is us, that's them.

And you know, Sydney, one of the things I've said many times on the show and one of the things that I have thought about for 13 years is when I have medical students or I have psychiatry residents working with me, how do I teach them not shit out of a textbook because they don't need my help with that? Read the book. Read the book. How do I teach them what my brother taught me?

And that, and I don't know that I've fully figured that out.

Sydney Graham (37:17.494)
I could help you with that Lisa. Can I jump in here maybe and give you an idea? So besides this work that I do with Families for Addiction Recovery, I have been an engagement specialist with expertise in patient and family-centered care. So I'm going to say the entire health care system, but particularly the suffering addiction and mental health space, will never succeed unless we are co-designing delivery.

Lisa (37:20.494)
Please! Yes!

Chuck LaFLange (37:20.875)
Hahaha, okay.

Sydney Graham (37:46.498)
Policy and programs, education, research. And so that's why I go into a lot of the universities and teaching the students who these young people do have a different perspective. And I love sitting in front of them and talking, but that's it. You can't teach a class of something you don't understand. So bring in that lived experience, partner, so that people are understanding both sides of this question.

Chuck LaFLange (38:07.568)
us.

Sydney Graham (38:13.29)
because they'll never learn what it's like unless they have a truer understanding and hearing from the person that are walking in those shoes. They are the expert on themselves and on the illness and how it affects them. The providers are the experts on the disease, yeah.

Lisa (38:13.812)
Hmm.

Lisa (38:26.67)
Mm-hmm. But I would challenge.

I still challenge Sydney, because one of the things throughout medical school, and we had this in, you know, all of the different branches of medicine that we have, we have to learn, right? I remember doing neurology and it was like University of Calgary from literally week one or week two of medical school, you are seeing patients. They put us in groups of five and we are assigned to a specialist in whatever discipline we're learning. We're in the hospitals. We're meeting the patients.

And so, you know, I remember patients burnt into my memory, like on neurology, meeting a gentleman who had been diagnosed with ALS and who was dying. And, you know, like we saw patients, but I still believe.

Lisa (39:20.694)
that, and maybe with all illnesses, but I still believe that when it comes to mental health and addiction, even hearing, and I think it's powerful and I still think it should be done, but I still don't believe that meeting patients even is enough. Hearing somebody's story, hearing people talk about how they were treated in the emerge and how it made them feel. And I still think that there's a lot of doctors that would sit in that room and be like, that's you and this is us.

I believe it. What?

Sydney Graham (39:51.774)
Yeah, no, I see it. I see it on a daily basis, Lisa, and you're right. One of the things I can say to that would make a difference is we can't just be pulling any patient off and go, can you tell us a story? It doesn't work. If they don't have a systemic understanding of how healthcare works, where those challenges are, and have solutions for that, I am a professional engagement educator.

Chuck LaFLange (39:52.195)
othering. Right. Yeah.

Lisa (40:04.951)
Mm-hmm.

Sydney Graham (40:18.03)
I understand the entire system. I have lived experience in numerous areas for the last 30 years. I would be qualified. I consider myself an equal to the doctor because I have the expertise he does not have. And I wholly respect all providers, every single one of them for what they do. Huge respect.

Chuck LaFLange (40:36.079)
right?

Lisa (40:40.494)
Mm-hmm.

Sydney Graham (40:45.194)
But I need to be respected equally with my perspective.

Chuck LaFLange (40:46.255)
What's the Canadian, what's the conference that you attend in Victoria, Lisa? What is that called?

Lisa (40:51.726)
Oh, that was CSAM. That's actually where I first met Angie, the Canadian Society of Addiction Medicine. Actually, yeah, her and I, it was it was a few years ago, we were attending CSAM virtually because of COVID. And we were in a talk on mandated treatment. And I was being vocal, and then I get a message from Angie, like, you know.

Chuck LaFLange (40:53.742)
See you soon.

Sydney Graham (40:56.307)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (40:57.42)
Ah, okay, okay. Yeah, yeah, okay, okay.

Chuck LaFLange (41:14.867)
Hehe

Sydney Graham (41:15.127)
Good.

Chuck LaFLange (41:18.471)
So to anybody who's, of course, why would you be aware, Angie is one of the founders of FAR Canada. So, okay, now let's, we kind of, as we tend to do, we get off course there, and that's great, I'm loving the conversation, but I do want to cover more of exactly what FAR is up to. Right, so, yes. Okay, okay, yes, yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Lisa (41:21.243)
GASP

Sydney Graham (41:23.582)
Yes.

Sydney Graham (41:37.418)
That's great. I was just going to bring that back around there so I can tell you more of these exciting things. So far is actually Families for Addiction Recovery. So we have designed three specific support programs for people trying to take care of every aspect of their needs and how they feel comfortable reaching out because there's a lot of stigma for them and they're really afraid to talk about the story. The first one that we have that we started with, which is so lovely, is our peer to peer program.

So what we've done is people just need to fill out an intake and what they will get is a personalized experience. So I'm going to match them with one of the 25 peer supporters that we have right across Canada, someone that has like a young man that understands the substances that are being used and the mental health piece as well. So that you're talking to someone that authentically has walked in your shoes as close as possible. And

We are all trained here in craft principles. If you know those are the community reinforcement and family training, it's all evidence-based science out of the states. So we all have that training as well as motivational interviewing and acceptance and commitment therapy. So now you're talking to someone that understands your journey and has some really good solutions that could possibly work. And I say that because...

A lot depends on the person that's suffering and where they're at, but we teach them how to reach them. So it's an hour call every week for two months so that they can learn skills and then go try them out and use this new language and come back and we can refine and we can change some of that language and learn more. So we have that program that's really important. The other thing that we do of course, is family support groups, like many people do.

Lisa (43:16.494)
Mm.

Chuck LaFLange (43:22.715)
It's amazing.

Sydney Graham (43:29.95)
I think they're wonderful because families really need a safe place for themselves who are afraid to speak out. And it's such a lovely place because it doesn't matter what the addiction is and it doesn't matter what the mental health is. All of the discussions are around what's the parent role in this? What do I do here and how can I effectively reach them to help them change behaviors?

Chuck LaFLange (43:55.143)
I think that's so important and to be run by people whose hearts and minds are in the right place, both in spirit and in education, because my experience in social media and the groups, the feeding frenzy, I call it. You know, when somebody comes in and says, oh, he stole from me again, he did this, he did that, she, whatever.

And it's this instant, and Lisa you've seen this, right? This instant, you can't do, no, you can't do that, you have to stop enabling, you have to, you have to, you have to. And it's just this horrifying, and you see it, when somebody says the opposite and speaks to some of the things you're speaking, there's a funny thing that happens. You'll see 50 likes, but no more comments about it.

because the people that do say anything get attacked. So you'll see people, Nick, no, that's not the right way, that's not the right way, that's enabling, that's just, it's a feeding frenzy against anybody that says anything aside from this old school, starve them out, tough love, rock bottom bullshit, right? But you'll see so many people will like that comment, they just won't say anything, right? They won't say anything to back that person up. And it's, so it's so important that there's a place.

Lisa (44:51.31)
Mm-mm.

Lisa (44:56.323)
Thanks for watching!

Lisa (45:14.156)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (45:20.431)
where those 50 people that like that comment can actually go and have a discussion without being attacked, right?

Lisa (45:26.326)
Mm-hmm.

Sydney Graham (45:26.338)
You know, but here's the thing about that comment. And I get people making these kinds of comments. Oftentimes I find that there are actually people that aren't even in the addiction space and they're listening and making comments without. But what we teach is evidence-based. There's been a lot of research. The one important thing that we always tell our families, we are not here to tell you what to do ever. You are the expert on your loved one. But I would love to give you some evidence-based skills that we know could work. And you decide for you.

Chuck LaFLange (45:36.228)
Yes, yes.

Sydney Graham (45:56.17)
what you want to do. But let me tell you, you know, one of the boundaries would be stopping the money, but here's what enabling really looks like. There's a difference between enabling and supporting a loved one who is sick. You choose what works best for you. But we also give the evidence behind why it would be important to do that and where it would be important to do that. And then they make their own decisions.

Chuck LaFLange (46:11.468)
Yep.

Sydney Graham (46:24.522)
based on that. We don't want to tell anybody. It's not, we're not the expert in their lives, but we've got amazing skills that could possibly change things around for them. So that's important. Let me tell you to really quickly just about the last support while we're on this, because I think this is one of the most important ones. It's so fantastic. We have support on demand, which I don't know where you get anywhere else nowadays. So during the week...

Chuck LaFLange (46:24.568)
Yes.

Lisa (46:24.59)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (46:50.183)
Ha ha ha!

Sydney Graham (46:53.294)
We open up the phone lines. I open up the phone lines. One of the things that I do, I'm on the phone every single day for three hours every weekday Monday to Friday. Anytime you want to call me and ask me questions and vent, talk about your self-care.

Lisa (47:02.079)
you

Sydney Graham (47:14.038)
Debate with me why it's not right or what their opinions are so that I have the ability to gently bring them around and just explain the science behind it. Someone is there to speak to always. And so there's, I mean, besides the weekend, as soon as they've registered with us, they're part of our family and they can talk to somebody all the time to continually learn and debate this and talk about strategies together. And I've got...

Chuck LaFLange (47:27.207)
That's amazing.

Sydney Graham (47:42.494)
a handle on all the resources across Canada. And besides all the training that our other peer supporters do have, I just personally, such a lifelong learner, I've gone back to get a certificate in counseling and I'm a cognitive and dialectical behavioral skills coach and a life coach. And I'm a professional navigator in the system. So I like to share that all with the families. How do I help you talking to the doctors?

How can we have a new perspective on what's going on? And you know, maybe here's something for you to think about with language that's gonna really help make a difference in your conversations. So three ways of getting to us and you can be doing all of these supports. There's no limit and it is completely free anywhere in Canada. Absolutely.

Chuck LaFLange (48:33.255)
It's an important piece, right?

Lisa (48:34.61)
It's amazing. Sydney, the part two, you talked about the groups. Are they virtual or are they in person?

Sydney Graham (48:43.806)
You know, Lisa, we started out doing them in person here in Toronto. And it's wonderful having that connection. But because of COVID, like everybody else, it's made it a little bit difficult. And of course, we're right across Canada so that we can reach people in remote areas. And so it's easiest for us to do that virtually so that nobody is left out.

Lisa (49:05.038)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (49:06.819)
Yeah, yeah, right. That makes sense to me for sure. For sure.

Lisa (49:10.982)
the group work? I mean like a virtual group like that, is it guided? Is it... yeah okay.

Sydney Graham (49:18.25)
Yeah, yeah, we do have a mom with lived experience who is now a professional facilitator and works in the industry. And so she's facilitating that. I often will do some of the groups as well. I really enjoy doing that because I love to generate these great conversations and the other families are so incredibly compassionate with one another because they get all the stories they've been through it. And families have the most creative, out of the box thinking.

Lisa (49:41.501)
Yeah.

Sydney Graham (49:47.718)
on dealing with some issues that really work and they're sharing that knowledge. And on the flip side of that, yeah, I tried this and it didn't work, don't do that. So, you know, it's both, but they're really lovely sort of group conversations and trying to get everybody's questions in and finding themes and just talking about where is our power as families.

Lisa (50:13.042)
incredible. And then when people call, like during, you said there's, you know, there's the help on demand. Have you had feedback as to how easy it is to actually get a hold of you? Like I just wonder, there must be a long lineup of people trying to get on the phone, I'm guessing.

Sydney Graham (50:13.363)
What do we do?

Sydney Graham (50:19.958)
Yes.

Sydney Graham (50:30.658)
I'm usually very busy. But yeah, you know what the feedback so far and it's growing. So we'll hopefully keep expanding that. So it is open from noon to three Eastern Standard Time during the week. And we also open it up Wednesday evening, seven to nine Eastern Standard Time for people that work and can't make that. But when I am talking to people, I'm

telling everyone, make sure you leave me a message because I could be off the phone in five minutes. And when I see other calls coming in, then I'm trying to get as much information as I can and really listen without rushing too much. But certainly when I turn the live phone line off at three, you know, if there's still some messages, I say, if it's urgent, let me know. I'll get back to you after three. It's, we try really hard here not to be rigid because everybody here has lived experience. They know.

the suffering and the isolation and fear. And as I say, I don't think there's a word that describes what families go through in this space. And so we're trying to be as flexible and easily accessible as possible.

Lisa (51:38.126)
it's amazing. And then sorry, I have another question. It sounds like you mentioned going into universities and stuff. Is that something that you're just doing in Toronto? Like are there, like do you go to universities outside of Toronto? Yeah, do you like?

Sydney Graham (51:42.806)
Fire away.

Chuck LaFLange (51:55.719)
Calgary for instance.

Sydney Graham (51:59.47)
Let me broadcast this loudly. If anyone wants to pay for me to come to Vancouver or Calgary, I would be more than happy to. We do have supporters across Canada.

Chuck LaFLange (52:06.219)
Ha ha ha.

Lisa (52:07.239)
Yeah.

Lisa (52:11.502)
Okay.

Sydney Graham (52:11.97)
Some of them with an ability to do public speaking. Chuck, we were talking about it's not easy for a lot of people to do that. Even outside of the mental health and addiction space in healthcare conferences, and I'm going to a lot of them and speaking about mental health and really pushing that agenda at every, I sit, I'm one of the three Canadian representatives on the Global Patient and Family Advisory Committee. And I'm sort of representing

Lisa (52:18.798)
Mm-hmm.

Sydney Graham (52:41.204)
health and addiction. So I'm going around to all of their conferences speaking to doctors that are coming in worldwide. I'm also a paid partner at Ontario MD so I'm at their conferences speaking about mental health and addiction. So we're all trying to get out there as much as possible and really talking so particularly providers have a better understanding from this other side.

Lisa (52:58.591)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (53:05.822)
I've never, ever, ever thought about this before, but for some reason I just had this thought and I just have to share it. So you said it and it's said all the time, mental health and addictions, mental health and addictions. Do we ever say physical health and cardiology, physical health and respiratory? No.

Like, why do we even need to say the word as a separate thing? It is a mental illness. It is part of the DSM. It is a psychiatric illness, just like we don't say mental health and depression. Why do we say mental health and addiction and leave it open for people to argue whether it is a mental illness?

Sydney Graham (53:49.874)
No.

Chuck LaFLange (53:50.182)
Yeah.

Sydney Graham (54:01.598)
Because so many people don't get it. Providers, people, I mean, I have this discussion all the time and I've already made the mistake, I realize as you're saying that, I think we really have to focus in on calling it a mental illness. This isn't just about mental health. It's not about people who have.

Lisa (54:05.582)
Woo!

Chuck LaFLange (54:06.24)
Yeah.

Sydney Graham (54:18.194)
acute depression and I get from, you know, I've suffered with depression. I get it. Why can't they do what I do? Well, where's your depression come from? Is it acute? Because we all have situational things that wouldn't cause us to immediately go to substances and, but there's a big difference between acute and chronic. And when a lot of these people are born this way and that's the way their brain is kind of developed.

Lisa (54:28.919)
Mm-hmm.

Sydney Graham (54:40.542)
and those pathways are there, that's a very different thing. So mental illness and addiction. I talked to so many different groups. I was just doing a huge thing with the whole nursing organization.

Lisa (54:40.896)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Graham (54:53.13)
And I kept asking him, we're talking about addiction. Why are we not talking about mental health? Well, they don't have mental health. We know that. I'm going, well, they, you know, I talked to families, hundreds of families, and I'm going to say 95% of them, families identify that their loved one has a mental illness.

Chuck LaFLange (55:00.616)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (55:05.9)
Yeah. And I think you're saying 95 to give you room, some wiggle room for being wrong, but we both know it's, yeah, we both know it's more than that. Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, yeah.

Sydney Graham (55:12.614)
I would say thank you. I would say higher than that. There's always a reason if we're not getting to that underlying reason. But again, these professional medical associations don't believe that. But you talk to any family member and we know that to be true and Google it. We know genetics plays such a huge role in this. If we're not dealing with this concurrently, how can we be effective in this holistic healing for them?

Chuck LaFLange (55:31.25)
Oh, yeah, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (55:40.625)
Yeah.

Sydney Graham (55:41.155)
It boggles the mind, honestly.

Chuck LaFLange (55:43.735)
Yeah, yeah, it sure does. I mean, and Lisa, you've spoken about it time and time again, you know, when it comes to mandated treatment is a good example of that. And I think I know FAR Canada stands on mandated, and I think Lisa and I are both on the same page as far as it's got its place, right? It does, right? You know?

Sydney Graham (55:45.642)
that there's many issues there that do.

Sydney Graham (56:01.767)
Oh, oh, 100% it does. Maybe medically necessary treatment. I love going to that phrase because it's not quite as stigmatizing. Right? Yeah, yeah. As soon as people hear that, it's, yeah. Oh.

Chuck LaFLange (56:11.099)
Fair enough, fair enough, right? And maybe not as triggering as it can be to some, because we know, yeah, right? But, and Lisa will tell you all the time, why don't they? Why don't they mandate treatment? And I'll just stick to that language for simplicity of the conversation, but, and Lisa, what is their answer? Right, this just blows me mind, right? It's like, why don't they? You know, in a psych, yeah, right? You know, what do they give as an answer? Yes.

Lisa (56:11.286)
As mandated, yep.

Sydney Graham (56:26.495)
Yes, yes.

Lisa (56:33.998)
stigma. That's it. That's it. You know, I mean, we mandate treatment. I certify patients in hospital every single time I'm at work. I, you know, whether it's because of depression that's causing impairment in their judgment, they lack insight, whether it's psychosis, whether it's mania. You know, these people are not getting locked away for life and having the key tossed out. No, they're coming in, we're helping their brains heal and they go

Sydney Graham (56:37.154)
Stigma and money.

Lisa (57:04.094)
you know, we do this all the time. And so I find it really funny because it comes, you hear it spoken about in society again, in addiction, right? And it's like, oh, you know, they act like it's this horrific thing that we would do this to somebody. And I'm like, we do this all the time. And if you don't know, it's because, you know, and it's fine, there's an ignorance there. If you don't work in mental health in a hospital, you're probably not privy to the fact that we do this all the time.

But don't tie this into addiction as if it's some abuse of these vulnerable, because I've heard even emerge docs say, oh, we're going to take the most vulnerable patients and we're going to brutalize them even more. And I'm just like, what are you talking about? We do it all the time under the right conditions. I have never seen a physician. If anything, I feel like physicians lean very heavily to patient autonomy.

Sydney Graham (57:49.554)
I don't know. Yes.

Sydney Graham (57:56.258)
Exactly.

Lisa (58:02.79)
It's just like, you know, and we'll certify people and say, here's the form if you want to go to a review panel, you know, we're happy to go to the review panel and let's put it out on the table and see if our judgments right on this. You know, we do it all the time. And so

Chuck LaFLange (58:18.771)
And didn't FAR Canada put out a paper about how we already have the laws? It's already there, it's in the Mental Health Act, right? We don't need to make new laws, we need to use the ones that we have, I think. Yeah. Yes.

Sydney Graham (58:21.953)
I have so much to say on that. Yes.

Sydney Graham (58:27.574)
Y-yes, and-

Lisa (58:27.895)
Yeah.

Sydney Graham (58:31.782)
We need to enforce the ones that we already have, which is rarely being done for sure. And then what would make people think we're not gonna be providing up-to-date evidence-based compassionate care? This isn't the one flew over the cuckoo's nest anymore. Yes, of course there is. But how long back was that? And we... Okay, all healthcare is advancing. Okay.

Lisa (58:36.942)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (58:44.471)
Well, and there is a history there. There is a history. And so it's not coming from nowhere, right? Like I said, those concerns aren't on. That was some time ago, for sure, right? Yeah, yeah. I'm not making a case for the naysayers. I'm not at all. I kind of understand where it comes from, though, how those biases are built into society, right? And you know what I mean, right? Like, you know.

Lisa (58:44.77)
Exactly.

Lisa (58:54.619)
Yeah

Sydney Graham (59:06.834)
Yes, yeah, yes and no.

Lisa (59:07.243)
It's a-

I feel like certain things get glamorized. It's like shock therapy, right? Again, it's like people, you say shock therapy to a depressed patient and they look at you like, it's gonna be in the movies and they're gonna be convulsing on the table and it's gonna be horrific. Every psychiatrist I know says, if I ever get depressed, give me shock therapy. You look like you're having a 30 second nap. It's the most effective way to treat depression. Bring it on. But it's like, it gets shown in movies and glamorized

Chuck LaFLange (59:14.758)
Yeah.

Sydney Graham (59:32.032)
It's...

Lisa (59:39.798)
the opposite of glamorized and made to be horrific. Yeah, so I mean, yeah, there's a lot of things that used to be done. We used to also go up people's noses and remove parts of their brains. We don't do this stuff anymore. Like that's not how we treat people. You know, like.

Chuck LaFLange (59:46.128)
Wow.

Chuck LaFLange (59:52.411)
Ha ha

Sydney Graham (59:55.29)
No, the sheer fact that we're talking about a person's autonomy. If they're not severe, they have autonomy. They're not a candidate. But how can we look at a 13-year-old, anybody for that matter, but I know there's been lots of case studies on young people who don't have a brain that's even close to being fully developed, who has a severe mental illness.

Lisa (01:00:19.982)
Mm-hmm.

Sydney Graham (01:00:23.25)
and is taking every drug under the sun and you think that they've got autonomy? And it's just assumed. It's like, are you kidding? So I'm, I'm a big advocate of long term essential care for people because otherwise we can create as many good community programming that we want. Keep putting the money in there. Go ahead.

Lisa (01:00:29.675)
Exactly.

Chuck LaFLange (01:00:33.659)
right?

Lisa (01:00:33.674)
I know.

Sydney Graham (01:00:50.454)
there is a huge percentage of that population that will never reach out for any care, walk down any major street in downtown cities, and you're going to see them all. They are suffering and they need to be rescued and given a chance at life that are so sick that they don't have the autonomy. And I think one of the key pieces to add to that, because I don't want to just be scooping up people, but they have families attached.

Lisa (01:01:01.448)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (01:01:06.185)
and

Sydney Graham (01:01:17.606)
And I can't tell you how many families I talk to. It is beyond heartbreaking who are desperately pleading. Why don't they do something? And they're just helplessly standing by knowing their child is heading to death and often do, and they've got zero control. So where are we layering in, in this mental health and capacity assessments, and even doing DSM fives?

Lisa (01:01:36.226)
Mm-hmm.

Sydney Graham (01:01:45.054)
Where's the perspective of the caregiver who's been there their entire lives, seeing the whole progression of an illness with all the expertise on that loved one with accurate information being delivered in order to improve outcomes? Nowhere. And there's a massive problem there too.

Lisa (01:02:00.876)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (01:02:06.222)
Mm-hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (01:02:07.975)
It's crazy. We know, and very anecdotal, but there's one case that both Lisa and I are quite aware of, and my friend's niece, right? She got the Form 8, I think it was, whatever it's called in Alberta, right? So it took the police weeks to track her down. The police saw her, and after the family had gone through the motions, gone to the court, done the things, and it...

Lisa (01:02:23.238)
Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (01:02:35.083)
some really terrible things that happened leading up to this. So it's not like the family came out of nowhere, as you well know, right? There's always a history. Police found her and said, ah, she looks okay. And ignored the court order. Right? If you get like, what? How is that it? Like, how many ways can a system show how fucking broken it is? Right? Like, they don't. They don't, right? Yeah. I know, right?

Sydney Graham (01:02:51.158)
That's...

Sydney Graham (01:02:54.582)
How do police have the right to be making medical decisions and assessments? And what is that about? We need some medical response without the police involved. And it has been done successfully. And we're getting really close to that. They're not medical practitioners. They have no way of knowing. And we know all of our loved ones have the capacity to stand up and present in a way that they want to avoid the police and avoid being taken in.

Chuck LaFLange (01:03:06.339)
Yeah, yeah.

Lisa (01:03:07.459)
Hmm

Chuck LaFLange (01:03:23.02)
Oh yeah, yep.

Sydney Graham (01:03:23.786)
but the families know the history and we know what's going on. And that's why part of what we talk about too with the families is be empowered, understand what your rights are, particularly in an emergency situation when we are forming our loved ones is to understand. Oftentimes the doctors will say, and I've heard it, sorry, it's against the law for us to talk to you. We can't talk to you. No, it's not.

Lisa (01:03:47.502)
That's not true.

Sydney Graham (01:03:48.762)
We have collection of information, so we can't ask questions. We have to honor the privacy of the patient. And as most parents, we already know that they're in there lying and that they're not providing all the right information. And so we don't need to know that. And anything the doctor says, it's held under privacy. But getting that collateral information from those family members that are usually present often, and if they're not standing in front of you, they're on the phone, begging to be heard to provide.

Chuck LaFLange (01:03:49.051)
Yeah.

Lisa (01:04:02.114)
Mm-hmm.

Sydney Graham (01:04:18.334)
Here's why they were brought in, sometimes in handcuffs, just to save a life. And the doctors go, no, sorry, and then kick them out. And see the challenge is they're not collecting data on how many people are walking out those doors of your hospital and then go kill themselves when they've been begging and pleading to get in there to save them. And they kick them out and that happens. So again, that layering on of family caregivers, I think is a really essential piece for so many that are there. It's a huge percentage of families.

Chuck LaFLange (01:04:27.376)
That's frustrating.

Chuck LaFLange (01:04:36.069)
Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (01:04:44.716)
100% random.

Lisa (01:04:46.195)
And I do think families knowing this stuff is powerful because if a family member calls and says, I know the doctor can't disclose, but they can damn well listen to the collateral I have to give. And if they don't call me back and my family member is released, then I'm going to make some noise. Nobody wants that. You know?

There's no physician out there who wants that on their plate.

Sydney Graham (01:05:11.954)
Yeah, sadly it doesn't go very far often. Yeah, I think there's been a lot of noise. The question would be one step up from that is anything being done with it? But yeah, it needs to be heard. And it's all, you know, the sad thing is it's only improving their job. You don't know what's going on, but we do as family members. How about we give you a lot of those answers so you don't have to try to figure it out?

Lisa (01:05:17.374)
Yeah.

Lisa (01:05:23.168)
Yeah.

Lisa (01:05:30.572)
Yeah.

Lisa (01:05:39.442)
Exactly.

Sydney Graham (01:05:40.954)
It improves outcomes in every situation when you are partnering with a family member. And it helps with the burnout and the stress and you need the support. Families are there providing free support for you. Grab on to it. Make your job easier.

Chuck LaFLange (01:05:41.826)
kidding.

Chuck LaFLange (01:05:46.759)
Of course it does. Yeah, yeah.

Lisa (01:05:47.1)
Yeah.

Lisa (01:05:57.994)
Yeah, totally. Totally.

Chuck LaFLange (01:05:59.899)
You're kidding, right? Listen, we are in a bit of a timeline for this episode. This conversation is far from over. Before we jump into the daily gratitude, so Sydney, I would like to, we are on video, and of course you can come to the links, all of this information will be in the show notes on how to get in touch with Farr. But, what's the phone number, if somebody wants to get in touch?

Sydney Graham (01:06:21.866)
Yes, please, the phone number is 1-855-377-6677. And for the live line, you can just dial the extension 207.

Chuck LaFLange (01:06:25.958)
Yes.

Chuck LaFLange (01:06:31.431)
Okay.

Chuck LaFLange (01:06:36.699)
Perfect, perfect. And again, if you guys, if you come to the website, a2apodcast.com slash 237, I believe it is, this episode, you'll see all that information there, of course, as well, right? So, brings us to my favorite part of the show, that is the daily gratitudes. And we'll start with you on that one, Sidney. What you got for some daily gratitudes today?

Sydney Graham (01:06:58.23)
Oh gosh, I mean, I just have so many, it would be a whole other show.

Chuck LaFLange (01:07:02.266)
Ha ha

Sydney Graham (01:07:06.586)
Do you know what I would say? I'm a single parent with three boys and a lot of my gratitude is around them and life experiences and what they have taught me. I couldn't be luckier for my crew. They're amazing. Just keep learning.

Chuck LaFLange (01:07:19.559)
You're kidding me.

Chuck LaFLange (01:07:24.391)
school. I like that you call them your crew. I like that. Yeah. Lisa, how about yourself? What you got for some gratitudes in Cape Town today?

Lisa (01:07:25.198)
Hmm. Yeah.

Totally.

Lisa (01:07:35.918)
I know, I'm gonna say I'm grateful for a break. I'm grateful to... yeah, I don't take tons of vacations, you know, and I love, love my job, and I feel incredibly privileged to do it. But, you know, it starts to wear you down. And so being able to just get away, be in the sun, be near the sea,

I'm just going to be grateful, grateful for this vacation.

Chuck LaFLange (01:08:10.604)
No kidding, well it's well-earned, it's well-earned. Lisa has been donating her time on top of being, you know, a mother, wife, psychiatrist.

sister, daughter, all of the things. She's been donating her time every Saturday, save I think two or three that you've missed now in total, you know, when you haven't been available for over a year now, right, to the show. So we're pretty, I'm grateful for your time. Very, very grateful for your time. It's not lost on me how precious that is, so.

Of course, I'm grateful for you coming on Sydney. It's been a long time coming, maybe even longer than you realize. Of course, Angie and I have been in touch for quite a while and it took us a long time to get her on the show, months and months and months. And so finally having you on, partnering up with FAR Canada for me is just like, yep, I'd said it to Angie, there's other people I can approach, but you guys, you're the ones I really wanna work with because that's what we do. It's about the families, right? Oh, this is my dog out there.

Sydney Graham (01:08:53.29)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (01:09:10.536)
I'm thankful for that dumbass too, the dog that's barking in the background there. He's apparently found some air that's bothering him or something, so yeah. That's what he's barking at most of the time. I'm also thankful to every single person who continues to like, watch, comment, share, talk about the show, do all the things down at the bottom of the screen. You know what you need to do. Because any time you do these things, you're getting me a little bit closer to living my best life. My best life is to make a humble living spreading the message, the message is this.

Lisa (01:09:12.63)
Hahaha!

Chuck LaFLange (01:09:38.203)
If you're an active addiction right now, today could be that day. Today could be the day that you start a lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call the detox, go to a meeting, go to church, pray. I don't care. Do whatever it is you gotta do to get that journey started because it is so much better than the alternative. And if you have a loved one who's suffering an addiction right now, you're just taking the time to listen to this educational conversation. If you just take one more minute out of your day and text that person, let them know they're loved. Use the words.

Lisa (01:10:05.15)
You are love.

Chuck LaFLange (01:10:07.963)
That little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings it back.

Sydney Graham (01:10:09.898)
percent.

Chuck LaFLange (01:10:13.685)
Stop. Okay. Boom. There we go