256 - NICOLE OBRIGAVITCH

Chuck LaFLange (00:02.128)
Hello everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds. Welcome to another episode of the Ash's To Awesome podcast. I'm your host Chuck LaFlange checking in from Krabi, Thailand. Of course, my guest is in Saskatoon Saskatchewan, Nicole Ogrebavich. Did I get it right? Ogrebavich. Not even close? Not even close? Obrigavitch Sorry. Jeez, eh? Stop yelling at me. Stop yelling at me.

Nicole Obrigavitch (00:19.266)
No, no. You did last time. It's Obrigavitch It was close. It was so close. So close. 

Chuck LaFLange (00:31.152)
How you doing today, Nicole?

Nicole Obrigavitch (00:32.962)
I'm good, how are you?

Chuck LaFLange (00:34.416)
I'm good. I think if I got somebody's name right, it would be weird to the audience at this point, because I get them all wrong all the time. So I feel like maybe I do that on purpose. That's what's happening. I do it on purpose. So yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (00:46.146)
My name is a tough one though. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (00:48.4)
Yeah. Fair enough. Fair enough. Anyway, hey, we were talking pre -record and I, hey, let's just be, you know, cards on the table. We tried to record last week. It didn't work out. We did the whole testimony thing for half an hour. The show's trying to get away from that. Let's just start talking about recovery and stuff. So what's, what's going on in your world? Why are you, you know, let's start with where your recovery began and kind of move forward from there and get to the good stuff right away. How's that sound? Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (01:15.234)
Yeah, that sounds great. So often people will ask how you came into recovery. And for me, it actually started with an arrest, a final arrest for trafficking and proceeds of crime. I mean, obviously there were a lot of things that happened before I finally came into recovery because that particular arrest that I'm talking about happened when I was 45 years old.

And at that point, I had been in varying degrees of active addiction since I was 12 years old. So, you know, previous to, and I consider that to be the pivotal moment for me, previous to that, I had made other attempts to come into recovery, but those were more forced. For example, you know, I...

Chuck LaFLange (01:53.808)
similar to me. Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (02:14.05)
lost my career as a lawyer and that was also somewhat pivotal but I had some other things going on that it wasn't the optimum time for me to come into recovery yet. I wasn't quite low bottom enough yet at that point. I tried to go to detox then, you know, I saw an addictions doctor, I kind of did some counseling, I went to a few meetings.

but I wasn't ready yet. And then I had my kids taken away from me and you would think that maybe that would be it. That also was not it. And maybe you've seen this before, but I think that that piece is really difficult for women because...

Chuck LaFLange (02:51.472)
no, I would not. No, I would not.

Nicole Obrigavitch (03:05.378)
when we admit as women that we had our children taken away, there's a lot of stigma and judgment attached to that. And people say ignorant things like, you love drugs more than you love your kids, or you know, there's a lot. And so that wasn't it either.

Chuck LaFLange (03:12.304)
yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (03:18.32)
Hmm... Yeah.

And of course you have a coping mechanism built in for things that you don't want to feel, right? Which just makes it so much harder, right? Once somebody loses their kids, right? So, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (03:28.578)
Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So that wasn't it either. I had to go through a lot of really, really terrible situations and another approximately five years of raging active addiction and I had to be stopped. That was it. So the prison sentence, that's what stopped me.

Chuck LaFLange (03:57.008)
Yeah. Fair enough, eh? Fair enough. It's interesting, as I think my story isn't that far off from yours, Nicole, really. It wasn't until I was 45 that I finally said, OK, enough's enough. So very similar in that way. I started a bit later than you, but very similar.

Nicole Obrigavitch (03:59.074)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (04:20.144)
The times that I did attempt it, like I think I went through detox three times, two maybe three times, but every time I did that, it wasn't, yes I went back and relapsed, but it wasn't that I lost that either. You know what I mean? Like that, the things that I learnt, it's like an accumulative effect, if you will. You know what I mean, right? So for a good example, and I don't know if you experienced this or not, the feelings wheel or the emotional lexicon.

Nicole Obrigavitch (04:39.618)
Yep, yep, yep.

Chuck LaFLange (04:48.24)
You know what I'm talking about? Did you ever have to do that in treatment or no? It's a wheel that that that's got all the different feelings that I talked about root feelings and why you feel the way you feel. But I still remember that being one of the very first things that I learned in detox is that's where I kind of got into the lesson cycle, you know, that they do there. And to this day, I still think about had I really hung on to that, I might have just done a little bit better because it was so important the things that I learned in that I've actually done a whole.

Nicole Obrigavitch (04:50.754)
No. No, I did not. No. Okay.

Chuck LaFLange (05:17.968)
three -part series on emotional lexicon with my therapist buddy just kind of diving into that right but some interesting stuff there for sure why do you feel the way you feel right anger is never really anger it's caused by fear or you know whatever right so but all that to say that the accumulative effect of all those attempts at recovery really does matter I think in my mind I don't know if it's the same experience for you or not but

Nicole Obrigavitch (05:32.226)
Yeah, yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (05:42.946)
Yeah, no, no, absolutely. And like I said, recovery didn't actually start for me until I, until that arrest and those previous attempts, as far as I'm concerned, that cumulative effect that you're talking about, that had nothing to do with that. I was still before that arrest using very toxic coping skills. And I, I think until, you know,

Chuck LaFLange (06:01.68)
No.

Nicole Obrigavitch (06:11.106)
while I was incarcerated. And I know that this is very cliche and people often will roll their eyes when they hear this, but this was the first time that I had an actual relationship with my higher power. So when I was institutionalized, I mean, I had been living my whole entire life with this spiritual vacuum and this whole that, you know,

Chuck LaFLange (06:28.656)
Okay.

Nicole Obrigavitch (06:38.946)
was somewhat I think associated to some mental health issues around anxiety and the way that I had been parented as a child and some of the things that had happened for me while I was growing up. I had that hole. And people say this all the time when they're talking about using alcohol or drugs is,

your sex or whatever you're trying to fill it with is that you were trying to fill that hole. And I always was carrying that and I carried it my whole entire life. And I think I was incarcerated. And by the way, I was really very fortunate because I got a federal sentence and got it in Saskatchewan. And I thought I was headed to Edmonton Institute for Women, which is a max, a super max. It's got, you know,

those sorts of programs. They do have a little bit of cultural programming, but not like Okomao -ochi healing lodge. And that's actually where I got to serve my federal sentence. And so despite the fact that I'm a settler and I'm non -Indigenous, I grew up with a grandparent that was very connected to the land and to the people that lived close to the ranch where I grew up.

And so I was exposed to that while I was growing up to a degree with my grandfather. And so it was really weird because when I got out at the healing lodge of the vehicle, and by the way, I didn't even know that's where I was going. I thought I was going to Edmonton Max, which, you know, I wasn't really looking forward to that at all. And, you know, I think that...

Chuck LaFLange (08:15.312)
wow.

No!

Nicole Obrigavitch (08:26.53)
It probably would have been a lot worse for me because I am non -Indigenous and because I don't come from a street lifestyle. And when I ended up in the women's correctional waiting to go to the feds and I had been in there a couple of times, you know, people that always say that, you know, women that I was serving time with would say, is she from the streets? And the other ones would say, no, she's not from the streets at all. And,

I think I was a little bit lucky because of the people that I was kind of associated with kind of, you know, looked after my ass. Otherwise I probably would have went through some really scary situations. So I thought it was going to Edmonton Max, you know, I kind of didn't really feel any type of way about it because I didn't really know what it was going to look like. And the morning that I was getting shipped out from Pine Grove, I found out I was going to OOHL, which is the Healy watch. And,

I remember getting out of the vehicle with two guards and I just looked around and I was like, the first thing that occurred to me was it reminded me of my grandpa's ranch. Virge trees everywhere, you know, it was not like a prison at all. So when I tell people I've been to prison, it's kind of funny because this is, this is on Neck and Eat Reserve. There's no fences. There is no like cells. Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (09:48.272)
Yeah, you always have to qualify it at this point, right? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (09:52.226)
Yeah, yeah. So, you know, basically you're living out in the middle of nowhere in Maple Creek on Neckanee Reserve and you are afforded so much opportunity around culture and, you know, just kind of looking at your crime and being supported through that. And so when I got there,

First thing I thought was this is a lot like my grandpa's ranch and I feel like I'm home. And the second thing I thought was I'm going to utilize this as an opportunity to get treatment. And that's what I looked at it as not formal treatment, like going to rehab or whatever. But I just knew that the connection to the land and the connection to how I grew up and everything. And that opportunity was there for me. And,

Very soon after I got there, I got to meet the elders that worked out of the lodge. And one of them said to me, and this is, I think this was the most pivotal moment for me when I did decide that I was done, that I wasn't gonna live that way anymore. She said to me, you are carrying so much shame. She said, the first thing I can see when I met you was that you have an immense amount of shame.

And if you don't figure out a way to let that go, you will end up exactly where you were before you came into here.

Chuck LaFLange (11:22.224)
Wow, okay. Okay, I wanna pause that. I wanna pause right there for you. How'd that feel, that moment? When somebody, I just remember the first time an empath, like a real empath said something like that to me and it was just this watch of, you are an, like, yeah. So I wanna know how that made you feel in that moment.

Nicole Obrigavitch (11:24.578)
So, yeah.

Well...

Nicole Obrigavitch (11:42.754)
in the moment.

And this is going to sound really weird, but in the moment, it actually made me feel more ashamed. It made me, it made me just that acknowledgement. It took me, let me just put it this way. It took me a couple of days to kind of process that. because I had spent my whole life trying to be this really tough person, you know, because I always considered.

Chuck LaFLange (11:54.128)
Okay.

Chuck LaFLange (12:04.56)
Okay, fair enough. Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (12:15.294)
vulnerability to be a weakness and letting people in and acknowledging that you were hurt or acknowledging that you were ashamed or acknowledging that there was something wrong with you was basically how I got myself into a lot of situations. Self -protective, always trying to protect myself, always trying to protect my emotions, always trying to control my emotions. And...

therefore being very, very toxic and carrying that shame deep, deep, deep inside because that was also how I was brought up as a child. You, you know, this is how you manage your emotions. You shove them down and you stand up and you show a soldier on and you don't acknowledge that you're, you're hurt. You don't talk about those feelings. You just, you know, you push through and, and I, you know, I recognize now and, and,

Chuck LaFLange (12:54.928)
gas.

Chuck LaFLange (12:59.92)
Absolutely.

Chuck LaFLange (13:03.792)
Yep.

Nicole Obrigavitch (13:15.266)
during my time at OOHL, that was something that became really clear to me was that I needed to have some humility around not only how I protected myself, but how that the consequences for other people that I cared about that I did allow into my bubble and how those behaviors came out in very toxic ways.

Chuck LaFLange (13:41.84)
Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. Okay. Continue, continue. that was, yeah, I wanted to jump on that.

Nicole Obrigavitch (13:48.834)
yeah, that's okay. So basically I think that for the next two weeks, and this was just like in my first month that I was there, you know, so we, we addressed shame, got to think about that for a couple of days and, and I was like, you know, I have to learn how to forgive myself. I need to learn how to, forgive people from my past that I think that have.

have hurt me. And then I started to look at, you know, vulnerability and that sort of thing. And, and then I started to look at humility. And that that was also huge for me, because I never did anything wrong. As far as I was concerned, everything I did was, you know, because I grew up with these this really great sense of integrity and morals. Because despite the fact that,

I wasn't taught really great emotional intelligence by the people that loved me while I was growing up. I was taught right and wrong, and I was taught about community, and I was taught about being true to your word and follow through and all of those things. But as somebody that was in active addiction, and we can all speak to this, is all of those things that you hold important.

previous, you know full -blown addiction You know, I'll never do this. I'd never do that and you do all of those things all of those things Yeah, and so the shame piece I think the biggest shame piece for me was first of all what happened with my children You know, I was actually brought up by my great -grandparents My mom had me when she was 18 years old and her and my dad had a very

Chuck LaFLange (15:13.84)
yeah, you work your way through the list, right? Absolutely you do. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (15:35.554)
very toxic relationship, lots of substance abuse. My dad actually died in active addiction. Still a lot of drinking, you know, in my family. And I spent a lot of the time growing up saying, I would never do what my mom did. I would never leave my kids, you know, and I carried a lot of resentment for my mom and things that happened when I was a child. And despite the fact that my great grandparents were absolutely amazing parents to me and,

I was given such a great opportunity to grow up with, I was born with 12 grandparents, like great grandparents, great, great grandparents. And so, yeah, no, no, no. So grandparents, grandparents, great, great grandparents, or great grandparents and great, great grandparents. So yeah, yeah, yeah, but.

Chuck LaFLange (16:12.88)
Holy shit.

step grandparents in there too, I'm sure. When you get to 12, there's some, no, that was all 12 biological grandparents. my Lord. Yeah. wow. Okay. Young mother. So yeah, I think that makes sense. Yeah, you said at 18. So, okay. Yeah, yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (16:35.106)
young mothers before that. So like I was I was surrounded by love, but there were conditions to that love. Like you had to be tough. We don't really talk about those things. We love you. But you know, you gotta be strong, great work ethic, you know, really good integrity, but but those emotions, until emotional intelligent piece wasn't there. But anyways, point was, is that

You know, I had a lot of resentment towards my mom and I was like, I would never do that. But I ended up doing that and more, you know, even things that were really far worse than all of that. So I'm sort of coming to all of these realizations while I'm in the institution. And then I also start building this relationship with a higher power. And to me, you know,

Chuck LaFLange (17:05.872)
Okay.

Chuck LaFLange (17:11.856)
Yeah, of course.

Nicole Obrigavitch (17:29.026)
I had gone to a few AA meetings and NA meetings when I was first dabbling with recovery, like I said, when I was losing my legal career, when I was losing my kids, but that was like forced treatment in a way. And so I finally started thinking about my position in the universe and whether there was something bigger than me and whether I could trust.

Chuck LaFLange (17:35.152)
Yeah, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (17:43.376)
Mm -hmm.

Nicole Obrigavitch (17:56.898)
that things would turn out the way that they were supposed to turn out. And through being incarcerated at the healing lodge and my relationship with the elders there, I started looking at my higher power as creator, which is something that is in indigenous spirituality. And it really resonated with me despite the fact that I'm a white woman and I'm a settler. I just...

really love the idea of connection in the universe and how everything's connected, you know, the way that we associate or connect to the land and the way that we connect with our relatives and nature and the animals and everything. And it's really more about, you know, the seven sacred teachings and just being a good person. And, you know, I...

I didn't get a deep, deep understanding of it, obviously. I was only there for nine months. But what I did take away from that was really important to my recovery moving on. One thing that I did also get to do while I was there was I got to go to treatment in Calgary. And that was a six -week treatment program. And that's where I did start learning about some of the things that you were talking about, but not exactly the same as what you were talking about.

Chuck LaFLange (19:05.104)
Okay. Okay.

Chuck LaFLange (19:22.608)
Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So, I mean, I'll just, I'll go back a little bit. Finding out, like, thinking, Kay, I'm going to Max, to, I'm going to this on -reserve rural camp kind of style or ranch style, right? I can only imagine the sense of, like, bitches! Like, I just, like, how much relief there must have been with that, especially, like, when you got out of the van, especially, I mean...

Nicole Obrigavitch (19:22.978)
about. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (19:41.122)
Yep, yep.

Chuck LaFLange (19:51.056)
there had to have been, I mean, you know, maybe not like.

Nicole Obrigavitch (19:53.538)
I'm gonna explain something. Yeah, I'm gonna explain something to you. I think that there's this idea that it's easy time, but you know, it wasn't easy time because yeah, yeah. And what I mean by that was, yeah, what I mean though is when you go to Edmonton MAX or when you go to an institution that's all about just keeping your head down and doing your time and getting through.

Chuck LaFLange (20:05.52)
No, I've done a camp. I've done a prison camp. I totally understand that. But the contrast, it's...

Nicole Obrigavitch (20:23.042)
I think that it's far different than doing that tough emotional work and doing that tough work about looking at looking about your past and looking about how you got there and making a real commitment to change. Because a lot of women aren't given that opportunity and they go to federal institutions and they aren't supported the way they need to be supported in respect to their addictions and their mental health.

Chuck LaFLange (20:28.464)
Fair enough, yeah, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (20:39.792)
Yes.

Nicole Obrigavitch (20:52.418)
And just that, you know, you're in there basically trying to survive. And there's a lot of really not great things that happen in Max institutions. And not only just the oppressive nature of the institution itself and some of the issues around the treatment of women that are in those institutions by guards.

Chuck LaFLange (20:52.496)
Yes.

Chuck LaFLange (20:57.52)
Of course.

Nicole Obrigavitch (21:16.482)
and just the rules and the policies and that sort of thing. But there's a lot of freaking lateral violence in those institutions. And, you know, despite the fact that I didn't really have to go through that in Edmonton, Max, I definitely did go through some of those things in Pine Grove, which is the women's correctional in Saskatchewan.

Chuck LaFLange (21:24.08)
Yeah, there is. Yeah. Right.

Chuck LaFLange (21:37.616)
Yeah. So I guess what I was referring to is just that when you discover that I'm going to go to this open -air place instead of this. I mean, there must have been a feeling of relief there, like of like, wow, relief. No? Like, this is before you realize, you know, just in that moment. You know what I mean? Like, you know. Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (21:41.954)
Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (21:52.162)
Yeah. Yeah, like I said, I don't think I don't think it was it wasn't relief so much. Like I said, I looked at it as an opportunity. And that was that was literally like it one of my first thoughts. This is an opportunity. And by the way, by the way, there's a relapse after this. So, yeah. So despite the fact,

Chuck LaFLange (22:04.528)
Fair enough, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (22:12.4)
Okay. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (22:21.058)
that I had those opportunities to connect with my creator and connect with myself emotionally and to do that hard work. And when I was in there, I also was introduced to AANNA and started kind of working a program and was able to.

reestablish relationships with all three of my children and other really important people that have been in my life since I was a teenager and, you know, work on all of those pieces and also go to treatment. I think that, you know, there was still a lot of work that had to be done that couldn't necessarily happen in that sort of really protected little place. So.

Chuck LaFLange (23:10.64)
course. So yeah, so nine months you said you did there? Nine months?

Nicole Obrigavitch (23:16.898)
Okay, yeah, so I got a three and a half year sentence. And yeah, federal sentences are much better than provincial sentences because at 25 % of your sentence, you are eligible for parole. And since this was my first real conviction, like I had some pissy stuff from before, but nothing that was taking me to the feds. And

Chuck LaFLange (23:19.92)
Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (23:43.202)
Basically, like I said, I went to treatment in Calgary and then when I came back, I went up for parole and I got day parole at nine and a half months. And I was released to Kamloops. I decided when I was looking at my release plan that I didn't want to come back to Saskatoon because a lot of really great, not great things happened in Saskatoon. I still had a connection.

to a previous relationship that I was in for three and a half years that was very, very toxic. And I just didn't feel like I was strong enough to return to community. And I had, you know, a lot of really terrible things happened to me when I was running the streets in Saskatoon and my kids were in Vernon. So I chose Kamloops. I didn't know one person in Kamloops.

Chuck LaFLange (24:34.992)
So good enough, right?

Nicole Obrigavitch (24:41.25)
And I thought that that would be a good fit for me. So yeah, I was released to Kamloops. And yeah, so I got released and I started doing the things that you're supposed to do. Like I got a home group and I got a sponsor and I was going to meetings and.

Chuck LaFLange (24:47.344)
Mm -hmm. And I see a look there.

Nicole Obrigavitch (25:06.754)
I was doing some volunteering in community. I was volunteering at two different places at Salvation Army. And then I was also volunteering at the Elizabeth Fry Society in Kamloops. But I still was carrying that shame a little bit. And I took a couple months to try to figure out what...

things would look like for me because despite the fact that I had two university degrees and despite the fact that I was a lawyer for almost eight years, I wasn't really sure what life was gonna look like. And I didn't want to be transparent about the fact that I had just been released from prison. And I didn't wanna be transparent about the fact that I had this somewhat expansive criminal record and...

I didn't want to be transparent about the fact that I was in active addiction for years and that's why I lost my career and that's why I didn't have my children. So I felt like I was kind of in this spot where I was in when I was a lawyer and I wasn't able to really talk about the fact that I was in an abusive marriage and I wasn't really able to talk about the fact that I was in raging active addiction and I wasn't really able to.

show weakness or vulnerability and like I was talking about. So you're hiding, yeah, you're hiding in plain sight. And so now I'm in this situation again, where I'm trying to follow all my parole conditions and I'm trying to find a job and I'm trying to figure out where I'm fitting in in community and I'm hiding in plain sight again.

Chuck LaFLange (26:33.616)
Same thing, just different. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (26:53.41)
you know, I applied for a bunch of jobs and no one was calling me back. I had this eight year gap in my employment history and people would say things like, you're a lawyer, you know, why are you applying for a job in a clothing store or you're you were a lawyer? Why are you applying for a job at a furniture store? Like and.

Chuck LaFLange (27:00.112)
Mmm, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (27:11.124)
Yeah, I can totally relate to that. And it's, you know, now you want to lie on the resume for that gap because it's like, but lying isn't being authentic and it's a horrible place to be. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (27:20.386)
Yeah. And, you know, there's lies by omission, right? And despite the fact I'm working a program and honesty is a big piece of that, and, you know, I just, I wasn't there yet, right? And I'm still carrying that shame and...

Chuck LaFLange (27:26.96)
Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (27:44.962)
I was doing some step work, but I wasn't being thorough and I wasn't putting my all into it. And I wasn't going to too many meetings. I was going to enough meetings that I was kind of picking up the program. And I got a job in a clothing store selling clothing, but I lied. And I got a job at a furniture store with someone who I'm actually really good friends with to this day.

And I was able to be authentic with her, but I still was working for $10 an hour. And it just, it wasn't ideal because I knew that I had a purpose and that I wasn't meeting that purpose. And so I started slipping back into old behaviors. Like for example, I stopped really going to meetings. I...

kind of dropped my step work. I wasn't really doing my step work. I started a relationship, an online relationship with somebody from the States that I met on a recovery site, but we trauma bonded over all of the really bad things. We had both just been released from prison. We both had issues in our past with partners and we both, you know,

a bunch of things that we both did that we didn't want to carry on into any sort of future relationship. But that was kind of what it was based in. And I found myself slipping into old behaviors in respect to how I engage in a relationship with like an intimate relationship. And there was like a lot of toxic shit going on. And, you know, it was almost identical to my...

Chuck LaFLange (29:16.304)
Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (29:39.426)
previous two relationships when I was in screaming raging active addiction except for I was not using So Basically, I was existing, you know, I was working two jobs one for ten bucks an hour one at minimum wage and in this relationship that was not healthy for me at all and I Made this really great plan. You're gonna think I'm an idiot. I

Chuck LaFLange (29:43.568)
Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (30:09.954)
But I'm gonna tell you anyways because it's it's part of my story. It's part of my story but So I made this really great plan that as soon as I was off parole and by the way parole is probably what kept me clean you know because I was engaging in all these old behaviors again and The fact that I I was on parole is it is what kept me clean like let's be honest and My parole officer thought I was doing great

Chuck LaFLange (30:10.16)
Probably not, but anything's possible. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (30:38.21)
but that's because I was following my parole conditions to a T, except for the relationship part, but I didn't have to report the relationship because he was in the States and I was in Canada, right? And no word of a lie, the second day I was off parole, I sold everything I own and I quit both of my jobs and I gave up my apartment and I got my passport.

Chuck LaFLange (30:48.624)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (31:06.338)
And I went across the border, down to the States, and within less than a month, I was selling drugs and using drugs and engaged in the exact same relationship that I had been in with my partner before I got arrested and my husband. And this was down in the States. And like,

Chuck LaFLange (31:10.512)
no.

Chuck LaFLange (31:20.208)
Ugh, what?

Chuck LaFLange (31:26.)
yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (31:32.706)
in psychosis because the drugs down there, no joke. And everyone had guns and like, it was nuts. It was nuts. And so I was down there for about six weeks and I came back to Canada because I knew like when I relapsed down there, I was like, I felt like I was, at that point I had 33 months clean and...

Chuck LaFLange (31:40.4)
yeah, totally different world, eh? Yeah, yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (32:00.258)
when I can remember the exact point where I used, because I was down there for almost a month before I used. And he was, when I got there, and by the way, slipping into old behaviors and choosing to see what I wanted to see and the self -will, the self -will was so huge in all of that. And, you know, when I got down there, it was clear that he was dealing, you know, like...

I'm not an idiot. Like, why did I not see that before I went down? I probably should have. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right.

Chuck LaFLange (32:31.12)
Well, I mean, that's understandable. I mean, you know, virtual is, yeah, totally pretty easy to hide behaviors when it's about, you know, yeah, so.

Nicole Obrigavitch (32:39.074)
Yeah, but you know what? I'm not an idiot. I chose not to see that. And I can remember one of the first things I thought when I got down there. I was like, what the hell is this guy doing? He's got a half game and he owes 200 bucks? Like, what a joke. And so like within weeks, I'm like, this is how you do it. And like, it was so stupid. And so yeah, right. And then, and then,

Chuck LaFLange (32:41.2)
I know. Fair enough. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (32:54.928)
hahahaha

Nicole Obrigavitch (33:05.762)
And then when I relapsed and I kind of went on a run and I woke up and it was my birthday and I was like grieving my clean time like I was grieving somebody I loved. And yeah, like I was devastated. I was devastated. That's the best way to put it, you know? And...

Chuck LaFLange (33:20.336)
Chuck LaFLange (33:28.24)
Yeah. No kidding. I've never heard somebody say that before, Nicole. That's interesting. It totally makes sense. Now that you've said it out loud, it makes perfect sense, grieving your clean time. But I've never heard somebody use that phrase before. So yeah, continue. Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (33:38.114)
Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (33:42.53)
I, yeah, and it was terrible. I stayed in bed, I stayed in bed for probably about 10 days. And in that very short period of time, I think it was only like three weeks or something like that, that I was back out using, I lost 25 pounds, my face was all picked up again. I had already alienated a bunch of people back in Canada. Just,

Chuck LaFLange (34:07.056)
I say we we don't just start again. We make up for lost time, right? We we get like we yeah, right? Yeah, yeah

Nicole Obrigavitch (34:10.402)
No, like it. Yeah. And I, yeah. And that was, that was like, that was the first time also that I really understood the whole idea of what a progressive illness addiction is. Like I was like progressive. Yeah. Like it was so extreme so quickly. And

Chuck LaFLange (34:25.296)
Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (34:32.066)
So, you know, I F'd around a little bit more down there for another couple weeks. And then I was like, okay, I got to go back to Canada. There's like no way that I can continue to live like this. And I'm not gonna lie. It wasn't like, I got back to Canada, it was all great. It wasn't like that. It was like, I went back down again and I tried again. And then that was it. I was like, okay, this is ridiculous. And I came back to Canada again and I...

got a hold of a woman that I knew from the rooms and Kamloops. And I was like, okay, like I can't do this anymore. I need to make some changes and I need to be serious about this. And by the way, like I had given everything up, like my apartment, my jobs, and I had no money at all. And I'm living at my mom's and in Brandon, Manitoba. And yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (35:20.464)
Yeah, right.

Chuck LaFLange (35:28.624)
wow, so you skipped over now two provinces. my, okay.

Nicole Obrigavitch (35:31.842)
Well, because I went from Kamloops to Brandon before I went down to the States, right? And that's how I drove across. My mom, she's so helpful. She drove me across not only once, but twice. And it was so funny because I'm not supposed to be down there and they're like, come on in. So yeah, I don't, whatever. It is what it is. I think that creator gave me that opportunity to learn, take things more seriously. So.

Chuck LaFLange (35:36.176)
Okay, okay, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (35:43.184)
Ha ha ha ha.

Chuck LaFLange (35:54.352)
yeah, that never even occurred to me. You're fresh off parole and you're jumping across the border, right? Yeah, that never even occurred. Geez, it's been, okay, okay. Yeah, yeah, continue.

Nicole Obrigavitch (36:01.538)
Right, right, right, yeah.

Good thing. Yeah. Yeah. So, and I, and I wasn't, I didn't have, I didn't have hardly any tattoos at that point. So I looked like a little nice church lady going across the border. So, you know, they're like, come on in. So anyways, so I reach out to this woman I know that has about, I think she had, at that point had about 10 years of clean time. And I was like, I need help. Like I, I need somebody who's serious about this to give me a hand. And she said, come back to Kamloops and I will help you.

Chuck LaFLange (36:15.792)
Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (36:36.624)
Yep.

Nicole Obrigavitch (36:37.922)
And so again, with absolutely nothing and no money and none of that, I got ahold of the woman that I used to work at her furniture store and I'm like, I need help. And she said, you can come and live in my basement and I will help you any way I can and let's get you cleaned up. So I took a bus back to Kamloops and...

Chuck LaFLange (36:56.464)
Wow.

Chuck LaFLange (37:05.584)
Hehehehe.

Nicole Obrigavitch (37:07.042)
That's when things changed for me. And yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (37:12.304)
Wow. Geez, eh? I'm thankful for that lady at the furniture store. No doubt, right? Yeah. Yeah. No kidding. Without some graciousness from other people, where would we be, right? For some grace from other people, I should say. So that's now you've been clean since then. How long ago was that?

Nicole Obrigavitch (37:13.698)
Yep.

Nicole Obrigavitch (37:17.698)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (37:27.33)
Yeah, absolutely.

Nicole Obrigavitch (37:33.474)
That is, September 27th, 2018 is the day I got on the bus. And I actually, yep, yeah. And I got on the bus in Manitoba, in Winnipeg, Manitoba. I actually went from Brandon to Winnipeg to visit a friend of mine who has since passed because of her addiction. So many people though. I'm sure you know just as many people as I have. And,

Chuck LaFLange (37:39.248)
Okay, so we're coming up on six years, then. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (37:53.744)
I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah.

Right.

Chuck LaFLange (38:02.512)
I often, I talk sometimes about how it's been just over 19 months for me now, way more than 19 people. But that's the new reality, right? Because of course, when I left, Fennol had just become mainstream. So it was like, you know, everybody, yeah, all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (38:07.234)
Yeah. absolutely. Yeah.

Right, right, right, yep, yep.

So there's one piece that I do want to talk about because I think it is has been the absolute most important piece for me. And you kind of touched on this a little bit about it being cumulative and taking the things that you learned along the way. And despite relapsing, you're not starting at ground zero, you know, and that's what got me up out of the bed.

Chuck LaFLange (38:44.368)
Yeah. Yep.

Nicole Obrigavitch (38:49.282)
and going again, despite the fact that I continue to use a little bit for the next couple of months, but that was the thing in the back of my head. Like, I'm feeling shame. I need to forgive myself, so I won't do this anymore. I need to get supports and I need to be able to surrender. And...

Chuck LaFLange (39:09.648)
Did you go back to the same home group in Kamloops? Okay, okay.

Nicole Obrigavitch (39:12.034)
I did not, I did not go back to the same home group because, and this is not, listen, I'm not using this as an excuse or justification, but I was, when I was attending meetings before my relapse, my sponsor, that relationship was also a little bit toxic and she went back out before I left Kamloops and she actually drove me, she drove me to the airplane loaded.

Chuck LaFLange (39:34.864)
dear.

Nicole Obrigavitch (39:41.666)
when I left Kamloops. So, no, no. So that experience did not color how I felt about Narcotics Anonymous. That wasn't it at all. I think it was just sort of part of the whole dumpster fire that that was. And so when I got back to Kamloops, I started going to the home group that my new sponsor went to. And,

Chuck LaFLange (39:41.968)
wow. So obviously not the place that yeah, yeah, right. No, no.

Chuck LaFLange (40:00.72)
Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (40:12.162)
Basically, before my relapse, because I only made it to step three, and because I only had some ideas about what the program was really about, I didn't really understand surrender. And I didn't really understand that connection with my higher power and why it was important. The fact that I did have a relationship with my creator,

filled that spiritual vacuum to a large degree. And despite the fact that I relapsed and I went back out, that was based more on my ability to cope and my poor emotion management. And that's something that has been common for me my whole entire life. Sad, you get loaded. Mad, you get loaded. Happy, you get loaded. You just get loaded, right? And so when I went down to the States and found out that he was using and dealing,

Chuck LaFLange (41:02.468)
yeah, yeah, of course.

Nicole Obrigavitch (41:09.346)
That's how I dealt with it. You know, I was like, this motherfucker watch this. And he was sorry, believe me when I tell you that. But I'm a nightmare. I am a nightmare. Like I really am a nightmare. Terrible. Terrible. Yeah, right? No, exactly. Exactly. And so when I got back to cow moobs and started doing my step work and

Chuck LaFLange (41:14.052)
I'm sorry.

Chuck LaFLange (41:28.4)
showed him. Yeah.

Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (41:38.146)
really understood what surrender meant. I think that that is absolutely was what the life changer was for me because yeah, surrender, surrender is something that I do in the morning and about 20 times through the day. And, you know, we talked about this already, but that whole vulnerability piece and trying to protect yourself and being a hard

Chuck LaFLange (41:48.08)
Okay.

Nicole Obrigavitch (42:06.978)
and control, you know, that was what fed all of the toxic shit in my life. It fed the toxic shit in my relationships. It fed my addiction. It fed, you know, everything in my life that I couldn't control basically was how negative things would happen for me. And so when I figured out that whole piece that...

I didn't need to control things and that in fact I shouldn't be controlling things and that I could hand it over and just let things naturally occur and roll out the way that they're supposed to and have faith in my creator and something bigger than me, you know, revealing things to me and, you know, showing me a different path. That was when things changed for me 100%.

Chuck LaFLange (43:02.352)
Okay, okay. And that's six years ago. So that's wonderful. So what are you doing these days? I know, I know what you're doing these days. But yes, yes, yes.

Nicole Obrigavitch (43:06.658)
Yeah. Yeah. And this is part of it. Yes. Yes. And this, this is absolutely part of it. So, prior to the relapse, prior to me going to the States and coming back to Kamloops, I had been doing some volunteering with the Elizabeth Fry Society of Kamloops. And, most people probably don't even know what the Elizabeth Fry Society is. Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (43:31.888)
have a basic understanding, but why don't you tell us what Elizabeth Fry is. So yeah. Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (43:35.042)
Okay, so there are actually 22 Elizabeth Fry societies across Canada and they all kind of do different things, but primarily what they do is they monitor conditions of confinement for women that have involvement with the criminal justice system. And the one in Kamloops, they provide a lot of housing and especially housing for women that are leaving intimate partner violence situations.

Chuck LaFLange (44:00.016)
Okay.

Nicole Obrigavitch (44:00.674)
don't do a lot of work with criminalized women, don't do a lot of work with Indigenous women. And although I did end up working for them when I came off my relapse for four years and I became the housing manager for their affordable housing portfolio, there was a point where I decided that that's not really what I wanted to be doing because I was also doing some frontline with an organization.

It's a harm reduction organization that basically supports people from streets to home. So whether you're an active addiction, it's housing first. Like they bring you in and give you, you know, make sure that your basic needs are looked after so that you can look after your addiction or look after, you know, your mental health or whatever. And if you choose to remain using, that's cool too. Just making sure that people are being cared for properly. So I'm working for Elizabeth Fry in Kamloops and,

Over that four years was working for Elizabeth Fry, I was in contact with a friend of mine from Saskatchewan named Chantal Huell, who had, yes, we love Chantal. And, you know, we had, yes, yes. And so much more. Yeah. And so much more. She, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (45:07.76)
We love Chantel. Yes, we do. Yes, we do. Trap house testimonies, folks, if you're wondering who that is. So yeah, yeah. Anybody who's been on part of my platform is more than aware of Chantel and you know, she's a big part of my world. So yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (45:23.138)
She's an amazing community support. And so Chantelle and I had been in touch basically over social media and we met while I was in OOHL. And she at the time actually came in with Elizabeth Fry Society of Saskatchewan. She had been employed with them at the time. And that's how I met her. And we knew a lot of the same people because Saskatchewan is small. And, right, right.

Chuck LaFLange (45:42.864)
Okay.

Chuck LaFLange (45:48.016)
It's a village of a million people. That's what Saskatchewan is. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (45:51.906)
And when I got released and I was released to Kamloops and all of the things, I constantly was saying to people, I am never going back to Saskatchewan. I am never going back to Saskatoon. Despite the fact that I have a bunch of family here and my oldest daughter was here, I was like, I will never go back there. Because I had a lot of...

things happen here, a lot of trauma associated with it. I still had my husband here, my ex boyfriend here as like, it's not happening. So

Chuck LaFLange (46:19.728)
Hmm.

Chuck LaFLange (46:23.984)
I've said literally, I have said I'm never going back to Saskatchewan 100 times. So I can totally appreciate what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (46:27.586)
Right, right, right. Yeah. So I'm working for Kamloops, Seafry, and Chantel is like, you know what, you need to come back to Saskatchewan because Elizabeth Fry in Saskatchewan needs an executive director. And I was like, nah, I'm not doing that. And then she bugged me. Basically, she bugged me for about two months and I had applied for the executive director position in Kamloops.

Chuck LaFLange (46:46.204)
I'm going to go to bed.

Nicole Obrigavitch (46:55.33)
And she talked me into applying for the executive director position here. And I basically surrendered. I handed it over to creator and I was like, whatever is gonna happen is gonna happen. And by the way, like I had done my steps, a full set of steps and I had made amends and I had made amends, you know, to the best of my ability in respect to what opportunities to make amends were.

rolled out to me, you know, there were some phone calls to family, there were letters to family, there were other opportunities to make amends through my step eight and step nine. But some of them weren't happening with me in Kamloops. You know, and so I thought maybe this is happening for a reason, maybe creator thinks it's time for me to come home.

Chuck LaFLange (47:39.472)
Nicole Obrigavitch (47:49.346)
So what I'm going to do is I'm going to apply for both of these jobs and we'll see what happens. So I did not get the Kamloops job. I ended up getting the Saskatoon job or Saskatchewan job and I came back to Saskatchewan. So basically what we do as an organization, we provide supports to women that have interactions with the justice system.

Chuck LaFLange (48:06.352)
Awesome. Awesome.

Nicole Obrigavitch (48:17.698)
And we have a lot of different programming. For example, we do a lot of court support. So we do basically from first charge, we do institutional in reach. So we go into the institutions and see where we can support people. We do bail support, we do court support, we do reintegration support. So when women are leaving a carceral setting, we do monitors conditions of confinement. So if there are human rights issues inside of the institutions, we go and...

work with management corrections to try to make sure that those things aren't happening again. We have an outpatient addictions program for women as well. It runs four days a week. And just recently I managed to get housing for us as well. Yeah. So, yeah, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (49:08.56)
Wow, wow, doing some good work there, right? Yeah, yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (49:14.306)
So things have changed for the organization, I think significantly since I came last year, I came in sort of roaring because Kamloops has a lot of services that Saskatchewan doesn't have. And so, you know, I see since I was here in 2015 and when I was incarcerated, things have gotten significantly worse. And I think that a lot of that has to do probably, so much worse, so much worse.

Chuck LaFLange (49:37.936)
Really?

Nicole Obrigavitch (49:42.21)
And it probably has a lot to do with the opioid crisis and fentanyl and the pandemic, but it also has a lot to do with the fact that we have a serious homelessness issue in community as well. And so.

Chuck LaFLange (49:55.44)
Which I think a lot of that ties back to of course the addictions component, right? I mean, not all of it. You can't blanket like that, but you know.

Nicole Obrigavitch (50:01.538)
Yeah, I think that there's a lot of other intersectionality in community here as well around racism though and colonialism and intergenerational trauma and some of the things that Indigenous people face in community here. Not a lot of supports and not a lot of resources from government at this point and you know,

Chuck LaFLange (50:17.52)
Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (50:25.698)
I was talking about earlier that other organization that I worked for that basically provides housing first. There's not a lot of that going on and there's just not any housing stock in community as well. And so there's all these different places where people are falling through the gaps and...

Basically, we're seeing in Pine Grove, the women's provincial correctional, like last summer, there's a capacity of 160 for 166 women in that institution. And last summer, there was 275 women in that institution. Over 150 of them are on remand. So they haven't even been sentenced yet. So

Chuck LaFLange (50:58.288)
dear. Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (51:07.394)
the issue is, is that poverty and racism and intergenerational trauma and addiction and all of those pieces are feeding survival based, you know, behaviors that end up in people being criminalized. And so they end up in there because they have addiction or they don't have a house or whatever. And then they get kept in there because they aren't eligible for bail.

Chuck LaFLange (51:21.104)
Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (51:34.498)
You know, you don't have stable and appropriate, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (51:34.544)
Yeah, because you don't have the home and because you don't have... Yeah, all of those... Of course, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Nicole Obrigavitch (51:40.482)
Yeah, yeah. So now I've kind of done this thing where I'm full circle. I spend time in that institution. I know what's going on in that institution. And I've been in community and I've been on both sides of it. But now I'm able to speak to those issues and I'm getting into rooms with people that can make some changes. And

I feel like I really feel like despite the fact that I don't really want to be in Saskatchewan, I feel like I'm supposed to be here.

Chuck LaFLange (52:16.112)
that's all it is, right? So yeah, yeah. That's amazing. That's, you know, and I know from what I know of your story, right, and we haven't really talked about that, but you know, to go from a Crown Prosecutor to addiction, to jail, to crossing the border and being involved in the life, so my Lord, that's quite the story you got there. And then, and now to be where you are though, to be really helping people. And I know, I know that you, Chantelle and I have talked about you quite a bit too, so like.

Nicole Obrigavitch (52:18.178)
Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (52:40.802)
Go.

Chuck LaFLange (52:45.232)
I know a little bit more than what we've talked about here and just in how much that you do help people. I think that's absolutely amazing. Since you've been there, I'm really surprised to hear that things have gotten worse. We'll talk about that for a quick second, Nicole. Is that because things have gotten worse because there's just so many more people in it? Do you think the attitudes have gotten worse or the attitudes gotten better? I'm under the impression that attitudes have kind of gotten better, but is that...

Nicole Obrigavitch (53:00.578)
Yeah, for sure.

Chuck LaFLange (53:13.52)
naive thing to say, right? And overpopulation is going to make anything worse, always, right? I mean, yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (53:15.394)
Yeah,

Yeah, I think that Saskatchewan, and you might have recognized this when you lived here, there's a lot of polarization in community because people don't really understand why somebody might end up in active addiction, or they might not understand why someone might end up homeless, or there's not a lot of empathy around the fact that that is the circumstance for some people.

And despite the fact that people don't really want to admit this, there's a lot of racism in community here. And, you know, Pine Grove is 95 % Indigenous women. And it's not because Indigenous people are bad or Indigenous people commit more crimes. It's because we're dealing with a colonial system.

Chuck LaFLange (53:54.928)
Yeah, there is. Yep.

Nicole Obrigavitch (54:11.778)
where people are still very racist, including the police in a lot of situations and including our court systems. And so that is just a circumstance and it's all based on the systems that have existed for hundreds of years to, yeah. So I feel like...

Chuck LaFLange (54:32.208)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (54:38.754)
there is more awareness in respect to people that care about these things, like people that are in our orbit, people that are in recovery, people that are doing podcasts or people that are promoting recovery or talking about recovery, way more awareness. And there are people that are empathetic, but I think that there are just as many, if not more people that find themselves struggling.

in respect to just financial issues. And so they're looking after their own situation and they don't have a lot of empathy for people in community that are facing that sort of thing, right? Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (55:15.408)
Which is unfortunate, but understandable. It doesn't make it right, it just makes it understandable, right? If that makes sense, right? And that is reality. I mean, the cost of living in Saskatchewan has jumped so much. Since I moved there in 2009, it's crazy how much it's gone up. Of course, I went straight to Estevan where things were skyrocketing anyway, but the rest of the province was pretty manageable for a while there. And then...

Nicole Obrigavitch (55:23.522)
Right. Right.

Nicole Obrigavitch (55:32.226)
Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (55:41.442)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (55:41.648)
You know, yeah, so things have gotten much more expensive just for the average Joe. So, like I said, it doesn't make it right. It makes it understandable, though, how somebody can get to that point.

Nicole Obrigavitch (55:46.53)
Yeah.

Right. And I think that, you know, there are a lot of good programs and a lot of really great community -based organizations in town, but our government, which is a very conservative government that is looking at like forced treatment, is building more remand centers rather than more treatment programs. And the treatment programs that they are rolling out are outpatient. So they don't even...

begin to address people that can't attend outpatient addiction programming. And, you know, so those sorts of policies from the government aren't making things any easier for the people that are suffering. And...

Chuck LaFLange (56:23.44)
Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (56:36.258)
not making it any easier for community -based organizations that are basically having to fight for the same amount of funds that are out there and kind of pitting us all against each other rather than allowing us to work together as organizations because we're all fighting over this very small amount of money that the government is offering for programming that actually has outcome -based results.

rather than these ideas that the government is coming up with that don't have outcome -based results, like forced treatment, for example, or thinking that if you throw somebody in an institution that they're going to come out better, or thinking that you're going to put somebody in treatment and that will fix them. When we all know if you don't have sober living after you come out of treatment, that there's probably a really good chance that you're probably going to relapse again.

Chuck LaFLange (57:32.016)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, fair enough, right? Fair enough. So there's a lot going on there. Listen, we've gotten to the top of the hour already. So I'm glad we decided to do this instead of trying to pick up from last time because we managed to kill an hour. So I want to thank you very much for coming on. We'll jump into my favorite part of the show. And that's the daily gratitudes. What you got for some gratitude today, Nicole?

Nicole Obrigavitch (57:33.73)
Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole Obrigavitch (57:39.97)
Okay.

Nicole Obrigavitch (57:44.418)
Right, right.

For sure.

Nicole Obrigavitch (57:57.698)
geez. I am grateful for my family and my relationship with my children. Last night I was out with my oldest and my youngest and who both live here with me now and they're partners. So my family, absolutely. And my middle kid lives in BC, but that relationship is so important as well. I'm grateful for my work. I love my work. It gives me purpose. And...

I've seen a lot of forward movement and my relationships with other people that care about the same things in community. Yeah, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (58:33.488)
That's awesome. That's awesome. That's awesome. Myself today goes out to my mom. It's my mom gets a lot of daily gratitude from me. Again, the whole family thing, right? So it's a grind here and she manages to just help even when she doesn't know I need it. It just comes and it's like, my God. So I experienced that yesterday. It really, really saved my ass. I'm also very, very grateful to every single person who continues to like, watch, comment, share, pay attention, talk about all of the things.

Nicole Obrigavitch (58:42.21)
Yep.

Nicole Obrigavitch (58:51.842)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (59:01.616)
Every time you do these things, you're getting me a little bit closer to living my best life. My best life is to make a humble living spreading the message. The message is this. If you're an active addiction right now, today could be the day. Today could be the day that you start a lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call into detox, pray, go to a meeting, go to church. I don't care. Do whatever it is you got to do to get that journey started because it is so much better than the alternative. And if you have a loved one who's suffering an addiction right now, you're just taking the time to listen to a conversation. You should take one more minute of your day and text that person. Let them know they are loved. Use the words.

Nicole Obrigavitch (59:32.226)
You are loved.

Chuck LaFLange (59:34.064)
That little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings it back. Boom.