254 - Ryan, Lisa and Chuck

Chuck (00:01.42)
Hello everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds. Welcome to another episode of The Weekend Ramble on the Ashes to Awesome Podcast. I'm your host, Chuck LaFlange in Krabi, Thailand. Halfway around the world, I have two of my co -hosts with me today for a rare appearance. First, of course, is my beautiful weekend co -host, Dr. Lisa. How are you doing today, Lisa?

Lisa (00:19.269)
I'm very good. I'm excited about today. It's been a while since we've had Ryan with us and so I'm happy to be doing this with you guys.

Chuck (00:29.484)
It has been. I was thinking about that as I was driving back from the store earlier. It's like, fuck, when is the last time? Was I still in Calgary?

Ryan Bathgate MA (00:35.852)
Back to my -

Lisa (00:37.157)
I think it's when Ryan was like sitting out on his balcony. But I can't remember when it was, but I remember, yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (00:40.46)
Yeah, my back jack, remember?

Chuck (00:40.876)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (00:45.164)
So that must have been last summer. Yeah.

Chuck (00:46.06)
I remember, yeah, it was last summer. Yeah, yeah. I want to say it was August. I had to go find that episode once to make it real. So I was, yeah, yeah. Anyway, and of course our other, my other cohost, Ryan Bathgate, how you doing today, Ryan? We never did an interview, so you know, you're going to do that. So Lisa, Lisa kind of jumped the gun on that for me. Thanks Lisa. You know, I had one job, right? Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (00:53.836)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah, and it was...

Ryan Bathgate MA (01:04.908)
Yeah,

Ryan Bathgate MA (01:12.076)
I'm pretty good man, I mean, I got recovery ball today, so I got three games after I've done this. I gotta go into Surrey and yeah, it's like, I don't know, 30 degrees here, which is nice for once. It's been raining a lot. And then, you know, like.

Life is actually pretty good outside of the consequences that I find myself in consistently. But you can't cut corners in life and there's no shortcuts. And if you try, you get what you get. And it's just a way of the balance of the universe has a way of taking care of.

taking care of that. So when I'm walking in a path of humanity, then it seems like my world becomes more enriched with the human experience. Whereas when I'm walking with an agenda of, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna use the term self -will because I don't really know a better one, then it seems as though...

whatever desires I'm acting upon are usually hurtful to myself and others. So, I talked last, I talked on Wednesday about that karma police thing and it's kind of something that I'm revisiting here. The balance of the universe I think is something we take for granted, but understanding that if I live in a deficit, I've got to find a way to add asset. And if I don't...

then it's funny how the universe will interrupt whatever path I'm on in an effort to try and right that ship. So.

Ryan Bathgate MA (02:59.628)
You know, I don't know what's out there and I don't really care, but I do know that there is some serendipitous acts that have happened throughout my existence that have always seemed to bring me back to a place that gives me access to find myself again. And I've been lost a few times, you know, it's just like I said, this is number three for long -term recovery. And, you know,

Yeah, I heard someone the other day say something about the becomes really difficult when with those that have a scientific mind in any element of intelligence and like I was like yeah shit. Yeah it is because you know and then not to mention this like authority

issue you know like so someone's telling me what to do i'm telling them to go screw themselves you know like so like you know it's just like this constant friction until you just like fuck it you know like i need to i need i need to follow whatever's going on because the way i'm doing things clearly doesn't work and you know with with especially with the addiction element or the substance use disorder

Lisa (03:56.165)
Okay.

Ryan Bathgate MA (04:18.444)
The guarantees are that you lose things and they start slowly falling away and falling away and falling away. The hope is to be able to catch that before you lose it all. An old saying, you don't gotta ride the garbage truck all the way to the dump, you know? And I sure like to get close though.

Chuck (04:25.1)
they do right.

Lisa (04:33.413)
Mm -hmm.

Hehehe.

Chuck (04:36.692)
I feel like I'm gonna one day, it's probably never gonna happen because it'd be way too much work logistically, but I'm gonna take out all the cliches that we catch on this show and just, we're just gonna do like a whole episode of no explanations, no nothing, just say the cliche, move on to the next one, right? See if we can turn it into a conversation, right? Like an actual back and forth conversation. I feel like there's a podcast to be had there. Go ahead though, Lisa, what's on your mind? Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (04:52.876)
Just blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Yeah.

Lisa (05:00.037)
Mm -hmm.

Ryan Bathgate MA (05:03.756)
Yeah.

Lisa (05:05.733)
It was so just interesting listening to Ryan talk about that because and I've thought this at various points in my life, you know, like, for example, when you know, my loved one has gone to addiction recovery and, you know, and then I get to spend, spend time hearing about that sort of third hand, I've often thought to myself, shit, like, we all need to do this, we all need to go to addiction recovery, like, you know, and,

And I think that there's obviously a lot of suffering that goes into being in a situation where you often find yourself in addiction recovery. And I'm not minimizing that, nor do I ever wish that on anybody, including myself. But I think if there is a silver lining, I feel like there's a lot to be said for learnings that happen through addiction that I think we all could benefit from.

but it's like because of the magnitude of damage and destruction that addiction causes, you're sort of forced to do it. But like, I think a lot of people lose themselves in their life at times. You know, it's just that sometimes, totally, totally.

Chuck (06:07.316)
for all sorts of different reasons, right? Without a doubt. There's even if addiction had never and Brian, you could probably attest to this too. Had addiction never been a part of my life, there is no way I would be taking the time to grow with intent than I am now. I would be another cog in the machine, you know what I mean? And doing whatever I was doing and getting through my life and all of that. But because of that reset, I guess that comes with with

Lisa (06:30.629)
Okay.

Chuck (06:36.203)
blowing your life up, right? And then, but now, so to grow with intent, I think is a rare thing for muggles, if I can say that, right? If that makes sense, you know what I mean, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (06:46.789)
Yep, totally. I told you, yeah, exactly, exactly. And I, you know, I've had people, I've had other physicians, you know, say to me, like, why would you enjoy working with people suffering with addiction? Because for some, just like anything, it's like, I also don't want to be in a merge doc dealing with somebody coming in with their eyeball hanging out of the socket, you know, different strokes for different folks. But I've often said that, like, for me, people in the recovery community are some of the most empathetic, insightful, wise,

Ryan Bathgate MA (06:49.804)
What?

Ryan Bathgate MA (07:06.38)
Yeah.

Lisa (07:15.973)
beautiful people I've ever met. And, you know, sometimes it's unfortunate circumstances that have gotten them to that place. But, you know, again, through whether, you know, just really shitty consequences that have put them in a place in their life where they've needed to take that hard look, they've needed to do that work. And it's like, we can all benefit from a lot of that, but life doesn't force us all into it at times. And so I was just thinking as I was listening to Ryan talk.

Ryan Bathgate MA (07:42.636)
Ryan Bathgate MA (07:46.284)
I was, I suppose something came up for me there when you were talking about struggle and,

You know, existentialists believe that to live is to struggle, but to find meaning in that struggle is life. And so really, so in other words, like,

Who said struggle is a bad thing? It's not comfortable. It's like guilt. Guilt's a great thing for us. It sucks, but it is extremely important to the process and especially in the development. And like I've said it a million times, in all the years I've spent in classrooms, it's struggle that's been my greatest professor. And I've learned the most about myself and the world I live in because of the hardships. And then the old saying, my old sponsor used to say, I'm gonna

swear here because it's a quote he said you don't learn fuck all in a good days and that to me just you know I didn't it didn't make nothing made sense at the time whenever anyone said anything to me but it really resonates today I mean you know like you know I so I've been having I've been out it's a long long time and I probably sat in

I'm going to go with hundreds of meetings and like I was thinking to myself like this time through it tells you in you know the thing in the quote the big book but it tells you who doesn't make it and those are the people who are unable to be honest with themselves constitutionally incapable of being honest is the actual term and and so like I didn't I didn't hear that for 18 years of meetings you know like

Ryan Bathgate MA (09:25.228)
And I think about why it's because of ego like the chances are that I'm sitting there trying to think about the next The next share that's gonna change everybody's life and make me famous, you know, like in Meanwhile, they're reading the things that tells you how it works. It says it how it's works That's what it's called The title is how it works and it tells you how it works and tells you who makes it it tells you who doesn't and I never heard it until I was 25 years into this, you know, which is just and all of the things and it's funny how you just like

Lisa (09:49.797)
Thank you.

Ryan Bathgate MA (09:53.804)
You know, all of these directions and how to find a level of existence that encompasses a saturated spiritual element to it, it lays it out for you, tells you how it works, literally. And I didn't listen to any of that because...

Chuck (10:13.836)
kind of watch it's kind of like watching the usual suspects every time you do it, you're going to catch something else.

Ryan Bathgate MA (10:18.86)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lisa (10:19.333)
Did you, did you realize looking back Ryan, like at those times, did you realize that you weren't listening?

Ryan Bathgate MA (10:29.964)
No, not at the time, no, because, well, yeah, looking back, again, it's like the amount of arrogance that has been constant in my life is just unreal. And so looking back, it's like, you know, I was more worried about optics, like.

Chuck (10:32.428)
benefit of hindsight.

Ryan Bathgate MA (10:51.308)
You know, I was the guy that would change my song from, you know, George Michael to like NWA before I entered the parking lot, you know, just because I, you know, because I was worried about what people thought. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, love George Michael. I love George Michael. I don't even care. Wham. Yeah, I love George Michael. It's so like, you know what I mean? Like.

Lisa (11:01.189)
Hmm.

I'm sorry.

Chuck (11:04.94)
Well, well, if you're listening to George Michael, you probably should be worried about what people think. So I'll just come out and say it. I love George. There's a title of the podcast. I love George Michael. OK, yeah, that's it.

Lisa (11:16.005)
Love it.

Ryan Bathgate MA (11:19.98)
But it... Gotta have faith, right? Freedom, I won't let you down. Come on, man. Like, careless whisper? Come on. You guys all love that shit. Yeah, so... Yeah, so, but I mean, you know, like... And I look at it and it was like every... you know, every...

Chuck (11:25.58)
Wake me up. Freedom.

Chuck (11:38.924)
Everybody hates George Michael, but everybody knows the lyrics. Everybody knows the lyrics, right? So yeah. Yeah. All right. Yeah.

Lisa (11:39.781)
It is a good song.

Ryan Bathgate MA (11:49.644)
The way I spoke was to somehow influence what you thought of me. The way I dress is to somehow influence what you thought of me. You know what I mean? Everything that I did was really deficit -based arrogance that was all about fulfilling intrinsic resources with extrinsic stimuli, which does not work. And ultimately that void grows and we find ways to fill it. And it became eventually that coping mechanism.

Lisa (12:10.021)
Mm -hmm.

Ryan Bathgate MA (12:19.34)
And which for me is, you know, drink alcohol or drugs. And so, but before that, there was other awful behaviors that, you know, I was doing in the midst of sobriety, you know, like, so like, you know, abstinence is just such a small part of the process, like, and we know that because people get abstinent all the time and they turn into assholes, you know, like.

But to be abstinent with enlightenment takes a different path and it is about this connection within. And I like the, you know, Alan Watts talks about the, you know, Hinduism where they believe that, you know, God is within all of us. And, you know, I need to throw that word around, but it does make sense to me that this energy source is within me. It's not something I look for outward. And, you know, and like, so that, and that becomes like, for me, it may be...

Lisa (12:48.517)
Mm -hmm.

Ryan Bathgate MA (13:13.676)
It made a lot of sense this time because I just can't believe in a guy with a white beard sitting on a cloud. That's not my deal. You know what I mean? I can't resonate with that. But when I have a conversation with somebody that transcends time and space and creates this connection full of emotional interaction, and I walk away from that, that is the enlightenment of the human spirit connecting with another one. That's the evolution of a human existence within.

You know, that happening. And so like that gives me peace. It gives me fulfillment. It gives me and it's there's a somatic shift. There's a paradigm shift that happens. And what do I do? I completely look it over and I walk away and I go, yeah, that guy's pretty cool, man. I really like him instead of like, you know, what an amazing experience to connect in a level that transcends space and time that is evolutionary to the human spirit. You know, and that is like enriched in connection, you know, like.

Lisa (14:05.733)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (14:09.381)
think to have a conversation like you're describing, one that, you know, does create shift, one that you do walk away from feeling inspired and feeling better, requires vulnerability, which is the opposite of ego, right? So again, it's like, if you're in an interaction, and you're all on your ego, you're not going to have connection like what you're describing. So those conversations require the absence of ego. And...

Ryan Bathgate MA (14:34.348)
Yes, and I don't know if it's the opposite though. I think it's more the absence than it is the opposite because it's like resentment and compassion can't hold the same space at the same time. Whereas I don't think ego and vulnerability can hold the same space at the same time. You're absolutely right. So what do we need for vulnerability is probably one of the most important values, which is courage.

Lisa (14:44.581)
fair.

Lisa (14:48.933)
Mm -hmm.

Ryan Bathgate MA (15:02.604)
and I cannot have access to vulnerability without courage. Once I have access to vulnerability, I have access to all the beautiful things in life that I've ever wanted to experience, like love, like happiness, like joy, but that does not happen when I have a defense mechanism up. When I got walls up, I gotta shield it, whether it's anger or whether it's ego or whatever it is that's keeping me from connecting with you, which ultimately keeps me from connecting with me. Make sense?

Lisa (15:03.109)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (15:28.645)
Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. One of the things too, that I was just thinking of, and I don't think I've ever had this thought before is that, because you're saying, you know, compassion takes courage, or vulnerability, I think would be the same, right? Vulnerability takes courage. And I had this moment where I had this like realization of how lucky I am. In that because I think I grew up in a very safe home. I didn't experience trauma as a child. You know,

Chuck (15:29.132)
It does. It does.

Ryan Bathgate MA (15:40.62)
Yep, yep. 100%.

Lisa (15:57.669)
Yeah, I got a bit bullied and stuff, but like I didn't have, you know, like I have always found vulnerability easy.

Ryan Bathgate MA (16:06.988)
Yeah, no, not me, no. I ain't my story, no.

Lisa (16:09.797)
Right? But again, but if you grow up, I can very much appreciate that if you grow up where the world is not a safe place for you, then of course it's going to take an incredible amount of courage to be vulnerable.

Ryan Bathgate MA (16:23.34)
Well, and to be honest with you, those are the years that I valued my ego. Because that was my protector. And then my skate was literature and sports. And so to go, you know, you think about that. You've got an eight -year -old kid that is afraid to be at home and afraid to be out in the world because of what's happening at home.

Lisa (16:28.613)
Yes, well, that's probably why. Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (16:51.5)
You know what I mean? Like there's no safety anywhere. And I think I mentioned that last time about that Southern comfort. I mean, that was my first experience with what I would call peace. And today my goal in life is not sobriety. It's just that sobriety is an access point to everything that I want for me. Because it is, without it, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I cannot access those things without having sobriety.

Lisa (16:51.557)
Totally.

Lisa (16:57.349)
Yes, you did, yeah.

Chuck (17:08.908)
necessary step along the way because of SUD, right?

Ryan Bathgate MA (17:19.596)
as an accessible and when I say sobriety I don't mean abstinence I mean the things that I need to do to work on myself and my ability to carry and build relationships with other people and so I cannot do those because alcohol or drugs become another coping mechanism for me like ego, like anger. It's a disconnect, it's a shield and it keeps me insulated from everything outside but like we know you put a flower, you put a...

a pot over a flower thinking that it's gonna, or a bucket, thinking it's gonna help it from the wind and all that, and it ends up wilting away and dying, and that's the same thing that happens with me, is that I'm basically putting an old rusty bucket over myself and wilting away and dying thinking that I'm protecting myself.

But really what I need is I need the wind to blow me and create that strength of my root system. And I need this, the beautiful heat of the sunshine and the nutrients of the soil and the rain. And I need all that stuff in order to fully prosper as an organic being. And so, you know, I find those things now through, so when I say, you know, you say vulnerability and I'm talking about sunshine, those are the, that's the same thing relative to what I am as an organic being.

And so those nutrients become love and they become laughter and things like that, the things that I need. And I cannot experience anything in that realm of beauty as long as I'm hidden behind walls or as long as I've got a bucket over me, whatever metaphor you want to use. I am unaccessible. And that really makes me, it gives power to the things that are happening outside of awareness to really run feral in my life. And so.

Lisa (18:49.957)
Yep. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (19:01.292)
That's why we talk about expanding the horizon of understanding because there's so much happening. Alan Watts says, every day ordinary consciousness leaves out more than it takes in. And so that means there's so much shit going on that I don't even know outside of my awareness. So my goal in life here to find this level of peace is to constantly... I use a guy named Hans Gadamer, a phenomenologist who's got a theory called the horizons of understanding. And it is basically...

It kind of speaks against the terms like recovery and treatment because he's saying that what all of our experiences create a comprehensive being and we just were constantly expanding, expanding, expanding. So when we talk about recovery, we're not actually recovering anything. We're adding to what already exists. And so that's, you know, so that's why I find that recovery term a deficit term. I just don't have a better one, you know? And so like my goal is to be in a constant state of expansion relative to my horizon of understanding.

Lisa (19:51.269)
Mm -hmm.

Ryan Bathgate MA (19:57.996)
And the easiest way to do that is to really admit to myself that I don't understand a lot. I don't really know what's going on. I don't know what's past the Milky Way. Like, I don't know everything about the human experience. And as soon as I know everything, then that glass is full and you can't fill it up anymore. And I won't be that. But arrogance makes that glass full. You can't tell me nothing.

Lisa (20:23.237)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck (20:28.94)
Yeah, right.

Lisa (20:29.669)
Yeah, it's so true.

Ryan Bathgate MA (20:31.404)
Yeah, rant over.

Lisa (20:34.021)
And I think, you know, like going back to the earlier part of what you're talking about, but you know, one of the things for me when I'm working with an, and I don't work with kids, so if I'm working with an adult, like I'll say to them, like, we're going to take a session sometimes too, and we'll spend hours talking about childhood. And I've had patients even say to me, like, you know, I'm not, you know, I'm not here to talk about my, my parents, or I'm not here to talk about, and I'm like, yeah, but if you think that who you are today is not entirely rooted in your childhood,

Ryan Bathgate MA (20:50.028)
Alright.

Lisa (21:03.877)
And the thing that, you know, is when kids don't feel safe with mom and dad, who are the people in life we should feel safest with, then we feel safe with nobody. It's like, if I'm not safe with that person, then I'm safe with no one, right? And so...

Ryan Bathgate MA (21:20.396)
Well, I had my sister and that held me until she died. Once she died, it was the bottom fellow. And yeah, I was on a crash course for substance use disorder. I mean, she died when I was 16. I was in a meeting at 19, you know? And so that three years is a fucking blur, like no idea.

Lisa (21:28.421)
Yeah.

Chuck (21:37.484)
Yeah, so.

Ryan Bathgate MA (21:42.764)
so yeah, like I agree. And I think IFS is the internal family systems is a really good modality for that. And like, it's, you know, I wouldn't consider myself an IFS therapist, but I certainly use it a lot. because I do like one of the questions I'll ask is when we're in, in, in a feeling, I'll ask if it's stale or not. And, and if it is, yeah. So if it is stale, then, then we go back and it's like not.

Lisa (22:03.493)
I remember that, yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (22:10.636)
It's not when the first time that feeling happened, it's when was the first time that you can recall? Like when was the first time that was an impact for you? And then really we start to look at, you start to look at the age and the driver. And the emotional driver is what perpetuates the behavior. Okay, so.

Lisa (22:17.605)
Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (22:31.788)
If I, we don't attend to behavior, we tend to the drivers exactly. Like, so like, and that's that, you know, if I was going to have a, I have a few knocks, I guess, on the world I'm living in right now. One of them is that.

Chuck (22:33.196)
core belief.

Ryan Bathgate MA (22:44.94)
Most recovery communities, they attend to behavior. And really, we need to be looking at Goldman and emotional intelligence. And then once we have some emotional intelligence, we can understand the drivers. And when we attend to the driver, then we can reconnect to another behavior that's more healthy. It's very much like I'm doing.

Lisa (23:04.485)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck (23:08.78)
This is sounding a lot like my entire experience at Yatra. This is what you're describing right now. So much of what you just said is my experience at Yatra. 100%. It is all about addressing those things, those core beliefs that lead to those behaviors. That's what it is. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (23:14.732)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally.

And that.

Ryan Bathgate MA (23:25.516)
Exactly, but I'm speaking about this not from a belief system, but from an emotion system, which is like our lungs or our heart. It's always working. Breathing and emotions are a lot alike because we both can control and can't control both of them. So, I can change my breath, but I can't stop breathing.

You know what I mean? So in emotions, I can use them with consciousness and conscious intention, but if I don't, they're still going to keep going. You know what I mean? If I pretend they're not there, then that's where it becomes maladaptive. Because really, I'm bracketing myself into pieces instead of being a comprehensive whole being. You know what I mean?

Lisa (24:03.397)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (24:19.405)
And another thing that's coming up for me too is, you know, and I don't know if it's about the behavior per se, but it's the fact that I do think, and I think this is true of babies, like this is true of human beings always. We do things because it benefits us, you know? A baby cries because somebody will respond to them and change their diaper or feed them. I don't think that we start out,

with behaviors and then continue those behaviors if from the first time we do them, they're damaging to us or they hurt us in some way. Usually a behavior starts because at some point it's protective, it's safe, it's beneficial. And then what becomes problematic is you get to a different point in life when those behaviors are no longer protective. So similar, it's like when, if you're a child growing up in an unsafe space, then ego,

helps you feel big and tough and safe. And you kind of build yourself up because your world's not safe and that's what you need to survive. But then you fast forward where your world is now safe. There's nobody at home who's gonna hurt you anymore. But the problem is that those behaviors have become habitual or whatever it is. And now you need to A, validate that they were at some point helpful to you, but also then to recognize that,

Chuck (25:28.044)
Thank you.

Ryan Bathgate MA (25:41.484)
Yep, 100%, yep.

Lisa (25:43.749)
they're not helpful anymore and a lot of times they become damaging. You know, what was once helpful sometimes becomes damaging and that's when you need to really take a look at it.

Ryan Bathgate MA (25:52.076)
100 % I mean that's my life story like ego brought me safety when I had when I had nowhere to find it however, it's always it's fucking almost killed me, you know, like and and and and so like I think we need to like We need we have to process we have to have understanding it has to be coming into consciousness and we need conscious intention in order to change these things and typically like talk therapy I'm doing neuro loop electric neuro loop therapy right now. It's really cool like

music and the clicking and stuff. man, it's something else. But it's neural loop. The same theory that I use in therapy is used with a machine, which is really cool. And if you've ever read that Mark Lewis book, but it talks about how these behaviors are developed and they happen.

when we are gaining or building growing consciousness. So ages five, six, seven, like that's when a lot of our behaviors that we have today were first brought about. And so like, you know, like you put me on a baseball diamond and I'll get kicked out arguing with the umpire because that's what I did when I was seven years old and feeling like, you know, either misunderstood or

To me, I get pissed off because I'm like bleeding and, you know, diving all over the place to make a play. And then the umpire makes a bad call and I'm, you know, I'm picking rocks out of my legs for nothing. You know what I mean? Like, fuck you, man. Like, and so, however, at 42, I didn't get kicked out of one game all year. So that's, that's my record. I got kicked out of one last year. So, but basically what I'm saying is I act like a child. I turn into a seven year old.

when an umpire makes a bad call, it's just like, bam, instantly. And that's a simple excuse, but these things, they don't go away because the emotion is the sustainable carry. Without emotion, behavior is not sustainable. So we can try it, like, I want to go to the gym. Well, if I don't love it, I'm not going to keep going. I'm eventually going to stop. You know what I mean? Like,

Ryan Bathgate MA (28:08.908)
You know, it's no different than, you know, when we talk about the obsession and drinking and drug use and things like that. I mean, it's nothing's going to change if we just attend to behaviors. But, you know, and you hear them all the time. Well, I moved geographical rate that doesn't environment. That's not going to change it. Like I stopped hanging out with these people or I'm only drinking beer instead of, you know, whiskey or, you know, none of that shit works.

Lisa (28:26.629)
No.

Ryan Bathgate MA (28:36.94)
Because we're not attending to the drivers. We're not attending to update or dust off the emotions that we've had for so long that are creating these behaviors that have become unmanageable in our adult life that probably worked when we were six, seven, eight years old. I would throw a... Okay. For who? For me or Chuck?

Lisa (28:53.925)
I have a question.

Chuck (28:57.932)
Fire away.

Lisa (28:59.941)
So I've watched the last two Wednesdays for you, Ryan. I've watched the last few Wednesdays, have loved them, have loved sort of seeing like this honest, vulnerable side of you. It's been incredible. One of the things, and you just kind of prompted this question because you said, you know, if I don't like going to the gym, I'm not gonna go.

Ryan Bathgate MA (29:05.868)
Okay. Okay.

Lisa (29:29.477)
So one of the things that you have sort of, one of the things that you have touched on in the last few Wednesdays, but it's again, it's kind of gotten over, not necessarily overlooked to me, and I'm not saying Chuck didn't notice it, but it hasn't kind of, no one stopped you and been like, wait, like, let's talk about that, is that, you know, in one breath, you'll say,

Chuck (29:33.356)
You see where it's going. I see where it's going.

Ryan Bathgate MA (29:34.476)
Yeah.

Lisa (29:54.661)
And I wish I had written it down to quote you exactly, but you had said on a number of occasions that the thing that works, even for you, is go into a meeting, go into the meetings. But you've also, like a number of times, commented how you don't like it. And so I guess there's a few questions. Is like, do you, you know,

Ryan Bathgate MA (30:13.228)
Yep.

Lisa (30:20.005)
Do you not like it or is there something else you don't like and you project it onto AA? And also, if you don't like it, does that worry you in terms of the fact that because you don't like it, someday you might not go and maybe that could be detrimental or... Anyway, so just like, yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (30:40.332)
Well, okay, first question, second question I'll answer first, that's less time. I love my little girls. So what I like, what I think, the way I feel doesn't fucking matter to me. When I'm like, you know, I got an hour.

and there's a meeting and I know there's a meeting and I don't want to go. I just think about my girls and I go, you know what I mean? So that is the sustainable driver is my family. And so that's what that's about. So it doesn't really give a shit what I think or feel about it. If this is going to help my little girls, I'm going to do it. You know what I mean? If it means putting on a ballerino fit and walking downtown, like I'll do that. If that's going to help them, you know, like I don't care. I'll wear a...

Chuck (31:35.02)
We've talked about your love of George Michael. So whatever, anything's possible at this point.

Ryan Bathgate MA (31:39.532)
Yeah, yeah. I was actually thinking I would make a Saran Wrap dress and walk downtown with that. Just all smushed around, you know. You're welcome. You're welcome. Yeah, so, yeah. So it's just like, it's very simple.

Chuck (31:50.476)
Hahaha!

Lisa (31:53.157)
I created a visual that I...

Chuck (31:55.212)
Yeah, we don't need, we don't need. Sorry about that at home, folks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (32:07.724)
really in my mind it's really simple like I made a promise to myself in that jail cell that I would always put my family first and that my girls would never see me messed up and so if I don't go to a meeting if I go to baseball and not a meeting which I've done once and felt incredibly guilty

If I do that, then I'm not putting my family first. And I failed in my goal. And really, it's become a life goal. Yeah. And so, but I did that once. And I won't ever do that again, because I recognize how important this is to me. And then I really let myself down in that moment. Although, I know it's not too dramatic. It's just missed a meeting. Fine. But it is a...

Lisa (32:38.725)
commitment.

Ryan Bathgate MA (32:59.116)
it did show me that my commitment to this needs to be 110 % all the time. So that answers that question, I guess, as far as the driver question goes. The driver is love for my children and it supersedes anything I might think or feel. Now, why do I not like it? Is that the question?

Lisa (33:10.021)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Lisa (33:22.245)
It's, yeah, why? And also, is that real? Like, do you really not like it? Or is it something else you don't like and you displace it or project it onto AA?

Ryan Bathgate MA (33:34.604)
Yeah, I like, you know, I've done everything fucking wrong in recovery. I guess what I really enjoy the concept, I enjoy the theory, I enjoy the community aspect. I certainly enjoy inspiration from a narrative, which I find just really fucking cool. To be honest with you, like.

So there are things that I do like and there are meetings that I like. It's just like, I'm not, you know, 25 years is I don't care about the clicks. I don't care about glittered cleavage and fucking, you know, loud stereo systems and shiny rims. And like, that's the show and shine meetings that, you know, it's just...

I guess what I don't like is the actual disorder element because it still shows up in people that are abstinent. And I just know in my past, this is changing for me slowly because I have to, but in my past, I'd know a person talking at a podium and I'm just like, you don't do any of that shit. You know what I mean? And knowing that like,

Lisa (34:43.877)
Mm -hmm.

Ryan Bathgate MA (34:57.772)
You know, this is also part of probably me in a state of discontent, but I'll be judging knowing like you haven't paid your child support in two years. You still don't have your license back yet. Everything's amazing. You know, and I'm just like, is it though? Like, and then, you know, like.

Chuck (35:16.14)
hold on. I want to grab that right there. That is judgmental, right? 100%. And I think, I'm not, whatever, I'll just call it the way I see it. That is the fucking problem. I think for a lot of people, and more people I talk to that do have resentments towards the program, it is that judgmental shit on some level, right? So even for you, and I can call you out on it, you're calling yourself out on it. You know what I mean?

Ryan Bathgate MA (35:20.908)
Cool. It is.

Ryan Bathgate MA (35:41.26)
Yeah, and so.

Ryan Bathgate MA (35:45.356)
For sure.

Chuck (35:46.348)
It isn't the bullshit that's being said at the podium. It's the fact that there's people sitting in the chair judging it.

Ryan Bathgate MA (35:53.068)
It's well so okay yeah.

Chuck (35:55.66)
Right? Like that's, that's to me, that's what I see as the issue there. Right? Because, because who fucking cares? Right? Like who cares what is what he's saying? Right? It's just, I'm here for me, you know, right? So, you know, does that make sense? No.

Ryan Bathgate MA (35:59.884)
Okay, so traditionally... What?

Lisa (36:07.365)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (36:10.853)
And I think for me too, like I'm hearing Ryan that when it comes to AA and what AA's goals are and what they intend to provide that you like it. You like the community, you like the content, you like the theories, you like, you know, and, but there's some of the, like, again, like for me as a, as a muggle, as an outsider, and I have been to meetings, obviously announcing that I am there more for, to learn about what happens in meetings.

Ryan Bathgate MA (36:11.02)
Yeah, I do.

Lisa (36:39.589)
but to hear glitter cleavage and big rims and stuff like that, when I think of AA, that doesn't even come to mind for me. And so when I hear you...

Chuck (36:50.444)
I think that's as metaphoric as it is like literal though, right? Am I wrong when I say that, right?

Ryan Bathgate MA (36:54.636)
Well...

Lisa (36:54.853)
But again, it's like that's not really AA though. Like, you know, that's not AA. Like what I'm hearing is that you actually like AA, but you dislike, you know, you struggle that some people are there being dishonest. They're not, you know, and again, that hurts them more than it hurts anybody. But it's like.

Chuck (36:59.052)
No, it's not. That's people before principles. That's, yeah, right.

Ryan Bathgate MA (37:00.46)
No. No.

Ryan Bathgate MA (37:14.988)
Yeah, yeah, I'm just talking about the things that drive me away. Like, and you know, it has to do, if I'm in judgment, it's...

Lisa (37:18.821)
Yeah, yeah. But can you focus, can you shift your focus to the things that matter that are helping you and leave that shit aside?

Ryan Bathgate MA (37:29.932)
Well yeah, I am.

Lisa (37:32.133)
Yeah, but yet you still say, that's my thing, is that you still say as recently as Wednesday that you don't like it. And I'm just like, if you shift that in your own mind, which I think would, if it happened, would shift in your language, would that be helpful to you? But.

Chuck (37:32.332)
I guess that's the whole point to what...

Ryan Bathgate MA (37:40.172)
No.

Chuck (37:50.732)
Can I go real quick before you answer that one right? I think that's what he's saying, if I'm wrong, please let me know, is that that is the thing that you are working on, is taking, you know what I mean, putting that shit aside. Those are the resentments that take you out of the rooms, right? And yeah, yeah.

Lisa (37:57.861)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (38:04.197)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Ryan Bathgate MA (38:05.548)
Yes, I'm talking about the traditional, like the history of it. This is what I, you know, like if I'm in judgment, I, you know, it's reflective. Like if I'm in judgment, I'm probably like, you know, they use, I'm going to use AA terms, but you know, the restless, irritable and discontent is the disconnect of the sunshine of the spirit. So if we are in a state of happy, joyous and free, we're usually living in spiritual alignment. We're in, you know, but if I'm like,

Lisa (38:15.717)
Mm -hmm.

Ryan Bathgate MA (38:35.276)
You know, like if I'm noticing like that guy drank four cups of coffee and didn't put anything in the seventh tradition, you know what I mean? Judgment. You know, like if I'm like, huh, look at those shoes. I'll tell the whole life story based on what kind of shoes the guy's wearing. You know what I mean? Like, and it's not a good story. So like those are the things that I, you know, now they're flags, they're markers that, hey, man, they're like.

I'm really wasting my energy putting it into something that is completely senseless, useless, and more harmful than anything. But it's also reflective of my need to protect. The other issues is I have an anxiety disorder and every time I go to a meeting it just spikes. Especially the bigger the meeting, the more. And the only way traditionally that I've been able to effectively combat that is arrogance and ego.

Lisa (39:24.229)
Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (39:32.364)
And so in that way, it makes me better than and for that I can stay. But if I'm less, if I feel less than and so there's a disconnect. I don't want you to find out how shitty I feel, you know, like, because I want to be, and that's, so when I'm judging that guy at the podium, who am I really judging?

Right? Myself. Because there go I. How many times did I stand on a podium and talk about how amazing my life was while debt collectors are calling and all the girls I'm sleeping with found out about each other. Just all those little, little stupid things that add up that are not in alignment with my values. And so, right.

Chuck (39:55.148)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (39:58.853)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck (40:20.043)
hiding a George Michael CD in the Jeep, right? You know, those types of things, right? Yeah. Put it in a different case, right? I love try, I might name the fucking, I might name this episode, I love George Michael. I might just do it, yeah, anyway. But.

Ryan Bathgate MA (40:23.372)
Yeah, I just name it something else. Yeah, yeah, it's like Method Man. Yeah, Wu -Tang, it's Wu -Tang.

Lisa (40:23.813)
Mm.

Ryan Bathgate MA (40:42.016)
I won't let you down. Stuck in my head right now. Yeah, so no, and to rate, like we're not today, it doesn't matter. Don't care, like say whatever the hell you want. Now I take what I can and leave with the rest. Like I got way bigger for Mr. Fry than worrying about, you know, somebody's appearance of false optics.

But it does. Inauthenticity has always given me anxiety when I experience it. And it makes me almost reactionary. In my past, it would be someone telling me about how much money they make or something. I get really sarcastic and fucking mean. Because my anxiety would show up and I would respond to that with basically trying to make them look like idiots. And now I don't do that, but I do get anxiety when I feel that incongruency. So and you know like...

Lisa (41:17.285)
Mm.

Lisa (41:27.397)
Mm -hmm.

Ryan Bathgate MA (41:41.708)
Nobody shows up to these recovery rooms because it was a good day. You know, like there's, you know, everybody's got fucked up in some sense. And so we have a community full of people that suffer with substance use disorder, which is a malady. Like, and so, you know, but, but those that have had this transformation, you know, you, they carry a higher frequency in their being and like that becomes attractive. So.

there are people that have done really well in reclaiming, I guess some sense of, a spiritual, connection and you can see it in their eyes. Like it's there, it's attractive. And, and those are the people that can stand in the mirror without, any discomfort. And those are the people that, don't have secrets and live by values and don't need to lie. And like that, that's kind of where I want to go. That's where I want to be.

Lisa (42:39.429)
Thank you.

Ryan Bathgate MA (42:40.78)
And then, you know, the other things that stand in my way are like the things that I know beyond. Like, if we really look at it, like step four and five is pretty unethical. Like we're talking about deep trauma that you're going through with somebody who's not trained to hear that and close that up or able to integrate that. And so like...

Chuck (43:00.172)
with a drywaller, as you've said in the past, right? No respect to the noble drywalling profession, and disrespect meant to the noble, right, yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (43:02.572)
I've said, right, but I, I, but I do, I do want to like, you know, I want to change, shift my lens on that a little bit in that, you know, it's worked for so many people that's without a doubt, but what we don't know is how many people have this like trauma response that ends up in relapse. Like, and it'll never be like, well, it's because I did my step five and my sponsor couldn't close my trauma properly. Like you never even hear that.

Lisa (43:08.197)
Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (43:32.62)
But, you know.

Chuck (43:33.004)
But I think it might not even be that so much as I thought it was enough. I thought it was enough that I thought I didn't need anything more. Or I was convinced that I didn't need medication. Or I was, you know what I mean, these things that can happen in the rooms. I don't think it's so much that, not all the time, you're probably right though, way more often than we'll ever know, all of a sudden I'm addressing deep trauma with a drywaller and okay, that's a problem.

Lisa (43:33.157)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (43:42.341)
I did my step five.

Lisa (43:50.693)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck (44:02.124)
Right? Like that's a real problem. But maybe it's just that I would think it's probably maybe more often that the person doesn't, you're not addressing that trauma properly. You know what I mean? Like to sit there and do a step four, step five, right? You're not addressing it. But you think that you've done enough because you sat, did this step four and the step five with whoever you did it with. And now you move on and you're like, I'm better. That's not sustainable.

Ryan Bathgate MA (44:16.876)
No, yeah.

Chuck (44:29.548)
because you never did address the thing that got you there in the first place, right? You know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (44:32.684)
especially the drivers, right? And that's not, it's gonna be out of the understanding of most people, most sponsors. Like they just do what they were taught. And I did the same thing for years, you know, like I've listened to a million stepfights. Yeah. And I don't, yeah, totally dude. Like I said, from a perspective of a member of that community, I am not against it as a -

Chuck (44:42.508)
Yeah, right. The thing about it, it works really great for the people it works for. Right? And that's, you know, like really well for the people it works for, right? You know?

Ryan Bathgate MA (45:01.932)
therapist, I see as unethical. And they're different hats. You know what I mean? So that therapist actually doesn't really belong in AA because I'm just going to pick things apart. So I'm much less passionate about calling that out than I once was. No, not that long ago at all. I'm like...

Lisa (45:05.413)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck (45:05.484)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (45:10.149)
Hmm.

Chuck (45:26.668)
Not that long ago, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa (45:30.085)
Mm -hmm.

Ryan Bathgate MA (45:31.468)
But yeah, as far as the, you know, the other thing is like, I'm a big believer in traditions and the traditions seem to be, I'm not going to say lost, but I don't see a lot of people practicing them or understanding them or wanting to talk about them much in the rooms. And the way that, you know, like I said, I started a long time ago with some guys that got, the guys I looked up to got sober in the late forties and they were all.

And so I listened to them and the way that they talked about the traditions being so important and like to me, it's a really important thing. It is the, it essentially is the rules of the community that create a structure that brings a safety to that therapeutic community. And so it is, yeah, and that shit I really believe in like that connection piece, the ability, you know, just like,

This is an old saying, like a shipwreck, we share a common bond. And like, like survivors of a shipwreck, we share a common bond. And like there, there, there is, you know, if you experience trauma with somebody and you have an ability to talk about that, the relationship is much different than any of the relationship you'll ever have because of that level of like, I guess, shared hurt or something that, you know, everyone that walks through those doors knows what it's like to suffer.

Lisa (46:33.445)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck (46:45.324)
versus.

Lisa (46:45.349)
Mm -hmm.

Ryan Bathgate MA (46:56.556)
and to be in pain and to live in shame, especially shame. And so there is something really cathartic about that. Right now I'm not in a space to pick any apart. I don't give a shit. Right now everything is about my family and doing what I can to ensure that...

Lisa (46:56.805)
Mm -hmm.

Ryan Bathgate MA (47:23.244)
they have every opportunity in their lifetime to be successful in whatever they define success as. And so like what somebody's wearing, what they're sharing at the podium, I don't care. If I don't like it, I don't care. If I do like it, I'm gonna take it home with me. And so I just, I wanna stay an asset. I wanna stay in a place that I can choose the lens of beauty easily. And sometimes that is a difficult thing to do when I'm in a state of...

Lisa (47:37.029)
Thank you.

Ryan Bathgate MA (47:52.652)
of constant stress or, you know, like all the shit I've been going through sucks, but I had been practicing to see the world through a lens of beauty. And that just kind of, it's a shift. It's a psychosomatic connection that creates an alignment that removes the void that you usually fill with either anxiety, depression or ego or fucking booze. Like, you know what I mean? And so now that, now that what that's filled with is,

a connection from one human spirit to another, which I would define as the true essence of spirituality.

Chuck (48:29.708)
And that's one of those things, Ryan, and I don't think we were recording the last time that I kind of started talking about this, but the thing about whatever your thoughts are, and I know, Lisa, I'm pretty sure that I said it with you in an episode or two maybe, but whatever your thoughts are about 12 -Step, the fellowship, the fellowship is so important, and so, like, you know, you've heard me say, like,

you know, that first 30 days doesn't happen without the room. So there's no fucking way it happens without the rooms. The fellowship is by far the most important thing that that brings to the table for everybody in early recovery. That sense of that guy has been there. You know what I mean? Like this is I'm with my people right now because nobody gets it like a muggle. Like Lisa, you have spent half your life trying to get it. Right. And you're closer to it than.

Lisa (49:02.437)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa (49:23.173)
Mm -mm. Yeah.

Chuck (49:26.956)
99 .9 % of the people that haven't been through it. But even you, admittedly, will never really understand it. You know what I mean, right? And yeah, of course you do, right? Yeah, right.

Lisa (49:33.637)
Nope. And I tell people that all the time. I'm very aware now that I will never get it. You know? Yeah.

Chuck (49:39.916)
So yes, yeah, so to be able to surround yourself in that is so important, right? So important, especially in the early days, right? When you're just trying to, when you're white knuckling it and just trying to get through, you know, you know, so.

Lisa (49:49.061)
And I think for me,

The reason I kind of brought this up, this question is because one of the things that I will often do when I'm working with a patient is something that I refer to and was taught to me by another psychiatrist is IQ EQ. And so IQ being what you're thinking, EQ being what you're feeling. And what you think and how you speak to yourself affects how you feel.

Right? So like, I'll do this with a patient, if they say something, and often they say it, and they don't even realize they've said it in the way that I might notice as an outsider, but I'll sometimes say, okay, wait for a minute, like, and I will repeat back something they've said that I think had like a negative tone to it, or, and I'll say to them, like, I want you to just, and I'll say it back, I want them to hear it coming from me. And I'll say, how, how does that feel? And we'll go through physically how it feels, like, do they feel tension in their body? Do they feel a heaviness?

Chuck (50:47.276)
Can you give us an example, Lisa? Like a little, like, I know that puts you on the spot, but give me like a quick phrase. Ryan, maybe you can pick something out that works, whatever, right? But just, you know.

Lisa (50:50.277)
okay. It should be easy,

Ryan Bathgate MA (50:57.712)
I do have an example.

Lisa (50:57.733)
Okay, go for it.

Ryan Bathgate MA (51:03.948)
Sky's in a group and he is in the spotlight, I guess. And he goes, fuck off with his hand like that. And I, so I repeated that to him with the motion. And I said, are you really saying fuck off? Because this is telling me that you just want everyone to go away.

It doesn't necessarily mean fuck off. It means I'm scared. I feel alone. I feel, I don't know what to do. I'm, I'm feeling pressure. I'm, you know what I mean? And so when we start to, to hit that, you could feel, as soon as he, I said alone, you felt the whole room shift because that feeling matched what he was experiencing. And so what, by him saying fuck off actually meant I'm scared and alone and I don't want to be, you know what I mean?

Lisa (52:00.421)
Yep. Yeah.

Chuck (52:01.964)
Is that what you were meaning there, Lisa? Was it that, yeah.

Lisa (52:04.069)
Yeah, so that, I mean, again, you can do this with anything that's any kind of negative, whether it's anger. And again, because I'm seeing people in the role as a psychiatrist, I don't often have anger targeted at me. But, you know, what I hear more is a lot of negative self -talk, right? Like they'll say, like, I'm a fucking piece of shit, right? And I'll be like, hey, wait a minute. And I'll say to them, you're a fucking piece of shit. I will, right? And I will say to them, like, how does that feel? Right? And I'll be like,

Chuck (52:26.38)
That's kind of what I thought you were going with it there, okay?

Lisa (52:32.196)
And I'll get them, you know, and sometimes when we first start using that in therapy, they struggle to sort of get there, but I'll say, okay, like I'm gonna put that on, I'm gonna say, okay, I'm a piece of shit. And I'll be like, okay, like I feel sick to my stomach, like I feel tension in my shoulders, I feel kind of ashamed of myself, I feel sad, I feel scared that the world's not gonna like me anymore. And so we'll go through that. And then I'll say to them,

I'm gonna reframe that. So this is the shift in IQ would be, you know, I've made some really big mistakes in my life that I'm really disappointed in myself for. And I'm like, how does that feel? And then they'll be like, okay, that feels kind. It feels compassionate. It feels hopeful. It feels, and so when you're doing it, you never want to...

reframe it into rainbows and butterflies. It's not like, you know, I'm an amazing person. It's like, that's not what you were trying to say. You were trying to capture the fact that you're disappointed in yourself, that you have, you know, you're acknowledging you've done some really terrible things in life. But you can reframe and say the same thing in a way that shifts how you feel. It'll shift how you feel emotionally. It'll shift how you feel physically. And so that idea that the way we say things,

affects how we feel. So again, with Ryan saying, you know, yeah, I could go to these meetings, but like, I hate it. I don't like going. Okay, when I hear that, if I put that on, that feels heavy to me. That's like, fuck, like gotta go to another meeting. Like, it weighs me down. But then he did it in this session. He said, well, actually, you know what, there's some things I don't like about it, but I like the community. I like the theory.

I like that there's hope in these rooms or there's inspiration in these rooms. And all of a sudden, he's speaking his truth. We're not making up something that's not real. But even for me to hear him speak that, I'm like, okay, that feels lighter. It feels more hopeful. It feels more positive. And so it affects how you feel. So the reason I brought it up is because hearing him say that, I was like, okay, that's not his full reality or he wouldn't be going.

Lisa (54:46.853)
But I think I always say to people, what you say to me is the tip of the iceberg to what you might be saying to yourself and thinking to yourself. And so when there's something negative coming out of your mouth to the world, I think that there is a whole undercurrent of stuff that you're not actually saying to me or telling me. But if you can start to recognize that, you know what, maybe I can change the way I say that and still be honest about it, but change the way I frame it. It might change how I feel about it.

Chuck (54:54.284)
Oof.

Lisa (55:16.229)
you know, and so and again, if it's something that works, then whether it's Ryan or anybody else, like, then I sure hope that your mental space is such that you continue to do it. Because the gift of that is ongoing sobriety, recovery beyond abstinence. And that's obviously what we wish for anybody.

Ryan Bathgate MA (55:27.276)
Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (55:36.94)
You know, to be honest with you, I think it's really stale. And I think it's a residual of arrogance from my previous beliefs in protecting my own addiction by hating the solution. You know what I mean? And so, like, I think it's more of a trigger point than it is a conscious statement. If I'm really sitting here thinking about it, because reality is just like, I don't mind. You know, like...

the way i feel about myself now and the way i felt about myself 98 days ago

Where's my thing? I want to know exactly how long. 97 days ago. My perception has completely shifted and the way I feel about myself has completely changed. And so it could be just a residual...

You know, like with our ego, if our ego is threatened, it's like backing a rabid dog into a corner. Like it's going to do what it can to survive. And so that might be just my ego just trying to hold on. Like, because the reality is, it's like once in a while I'm like, fuck, I don't want to go, but I go anyway, you know, but most of the time I'm fine to go. And I've been going in an area that I've never done any recovery. So I go to meetings without knowing anyone. They don't know me.

Which is kind of nice to be honest with you. The problem is that I have anxiety and when I have anxiety I'm not social. So I go in, I might share, I put my fucking toonie in the bin and when I'm done I leave. And so I probably need to open that up a little bit more. But yeah, I kind of like the anonymous element to it right now.

Chuck (57:13.068)
Yeah, I hear.

Lisa (57:33.861)
Mm -hmm.

Ryan Bathgate MA (57:35.148)
When I, you know, I go to a meeting in Syria, I'm gonna run into clients and that sucks. As soon as I see a client anywhere, I'm no longer a human being. I'm a therapist. And I have to live by those ethical standards. And so, like, technically I'm not even supposed to share if I have a client in a meeting. And I'm not supposed to sponsor people. And like, you know, like,

So it is, you know, becoming a counselor definitely is more than just sitting down with somebody for 15 minutes at a time. There is a lot that comes with it, as you know, and the amount of, you know, there's a, I guess, there's a big difference between helping someone and being paid to help somebody. What I've noticed is that when I, it's my job, when I'm helping someone there,

it takes for me, it takes something for me. But when I'm helping somebody as a service or a member of the recovery communities, then I actually get something. And so the payment for that is like self -esteem, self -worth, all the intrinsic resources. Whereas with work, the payment is money. You know what I mean? And when it becomes about being paid in money, then...

that when it comes to being paid in money, it takes away from that, the spirit of connection, I think.

Chuck (59:05.132)
that money is buying something from you. So yeah, it stands to reason that you're taking, it's just like any job, anything, you're selling your time to your boss, or you're selling your, you know, in this, your time and your thoughts with, or whatever it is, right? Your skills with your clients, so it does stand to reason. Yeah. No, I see exactly what you're saying, yeah. That's transactional, right? You know, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Right?

Ryan Bathgate MA (59:18.828)
Yes, but it doesn't enrich the human spirit, is my point.

Ryan Bathgate MA (59:25.708)
It is, and that's what led to burnout, that's what led to, it was a part of relapse, it was, you know, like, so many things. Yeah. Yeah, and I gotta get to the ballpark, yeah, wow, that was fast.

Chuck (59:35.084)
Yep. Hey, listen, we've got to the hour mark. All of a sudden, hey, that happened. Yeah. So why don't we move into my favorite part of the show, and that's daily gratitude. Let's start with you, Ryan. It's random.

Ryan Bathgate MA (59:50.412)
Well...

Huh. I guess I'm grateful for,

Like, there's so, there's so, yep. Yep.

Chuck (01:00:04.396)
haha

Chuck (01:00:08.044)
And the institution that is Wham.

Ryan Bathgate MA (01:00:08.524)
yeah. Not just Wham, man. It gets better after Wham. I Shaking the dice. you know what, okay. Back to fucking Earth.

Chuck (01:00:15.852)
You

Ryan Bathgate MA (01:00:37.068)
I am grateful for all of the, you know, like one thing I'll say, like when I went through my thing, it was people in recovery that all showed up. And so I'm grateful for all those people that believe in me and when I couldn't believe myself and that have really like shown up and we're happy to do so.

And they would tell me it's them paying me back. And like, no, I don't think that that's it. It's not transactional like that. I think my friends need me. I'm going to show up. And when I need them, they show up. And so I'm really grateful for that. I'm grateful for forgiveness. I'm grateful for intrinsic resource. I'm grateful for alignment, connection.

And of course my beautiful family I'm always grateful for. And you guys, sure, why not?

Lisa (01:01:41.221)
Mm -hmm.

Chuck (01:01:44.748)
Lisa, what you grateful for today?

Lisa (01:01:47.493)
I'm going to be like super not deep today and say I'm grateful that I'm not at work. I in a seven day span, I've got three 24 hour call shifts. And doesn't happen to me very often, thankfully, but that's the week I'm in. And so I'm back to work tomorrow at eight o 'clock in the morning for another 24 hours. So I'm bloody thankful that I have today off.

Chuck (01:02:01.132)
Wow.

Ryan Bathgate MA (01:02:10.892)
Hmph.

Chuck (01:02:15.468)
Well, if that's sustainable gratitude, they don't always have to be deep, right? So, you know, I'll say, I was thinking about this the other day, Lisa, and when I was scheduling somebody in for a weekend ramble or working on scheduling them, and I was like, listen, here's the thing. Saturdays are like, that's it. We do it at this time, period, right? Like, we don't move that around. Lisa's schedule is what Lisa's schedule is. But I was thinking about that afterwards. I was like,

Ryan Bathgate MA (01:02:15.596)
Yeah.

Lisa (01:02:16.389)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck (01:02:42.06)
It's pretty amazing, and I'm really grateful. And we've said this before, but that you somehow have moved your schedule or whatever you have done to be able to be here every Saturday at that time is pretty amazing, because you've got a life. I mean, you have a job that gives you three 24 -hour shifts in a week, and your mom and your wife and your daughter and sister and all those things. So I'm very grateful for your time. And I just thank you. Thank you.

Lisa (01:03:02.373)
Hmm.

Chuck (01:03:12.172)
And of course Ryan, I'm really happy that you're back. The band's back together. It makes me happy. Right? And it does. It does, man. Right? I missed you in a big way. And of course, I'm grateful to every single person who continued to like, comment, share, do all of those things down at the bottom. Every time you do these things, you're getting me a little bit closer to living my best life. My best life is to continue making humble li... making humble living, spreading the message. The message is this. If you're an active addiction right now, today could be the day.

Lisa (01:03:12.773)
You're very welcome.

Lisa (01:03:16.837)
Yeah.

Ryan Bathgate MA (01:03:23.724)
Glad to be back.

Chuck (01:03:40.108)
Today could be the day that you start a lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call into detox, go to a meeting, pray, go to church. I don't give a shit. Do whatever it is you gotta do to get that journey started, because it is so much better than the alternative. If you have a loved one who's suffering an addiction right now, just taking the time to listen to this conversation. If you just take one more minute out of your day and text that person, let them know they're loved. Use the words.

Ryan Bathgate MA (01:04:01.804)
You are loved.

Lisa (01:04:01.957)
You are love.

Chuck (01:04:04.524)
A little glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings them back.

Chuck (01:04:10.188)
Good job.